Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-12-17 | 2017-12-19 → ↓
01:11 davout http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1752837 <<< ye olde "you got lucky"
01:11 a111 Logged on 2017-12-18 00:33 indiancandy1: u didnt predict this
~ 53 minutes ~
02:05 ben_vulpes http://archive.is/p526V << certain elements of the pravda are funny; the classic socialistoid "assuming the sale" in "The truth has been rendered here irrelevant" in regards to the /defamation case/, also the hilarious verdict of ~"you'd have to be /uniquely stupid/ to not understand that you're a public figure by virtue of just fucking look at yourself"
~ 28 minutes ~
02:33 mircea_popescu heh
02:35 ben_vulpes and now for something completely different: http://archive.is/IEa6u "I have always been fascinated, and a little troubled, by the concept of paper money, or fiat currency. If I think about it too long it makes my head hurt and I have an urge to sell all of my tech stocks and buy gold."
02:39 ben_vulpes gods bless, his webpage loads in half a second
02:39 mircea_popescu selling "tech" stocks ie, worthless web-venture paper is a good move in any case.
02:39 ben_vulpes i thought it was cute!
~ 18 minutes ~
02:58 mircea_popescu lol
~ 5 hours 6 minutes ~
08:04 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> afaik pediwikism dun count as 'publication' << Eh, but the so called deans prolly count pediwiki links as citations in their minds if not on paper
08:12 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> they like to have both tracks running, iirc << AHA, this and rock music appears to be what shaped most of the younger local's english language ability. Ingles subtitulo Espanol, Not a very functional thing, thankfully only a flash of stink eye pushes them pack into spanish practice mode.
08:20 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> amusingly, it msises the very obvious failure of the "chinese room" nonsense (yes, searle mc dumbnuts, you don't speak chinese NOW ; but if you followed the recipe you WOULD, by the time you'd stop making errors, actually speak chinese. duh. eternal error of the childish mind, http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Amircea+dynamic+static etc ), but moving on to more interesting things : << AHA the poor hostel staff
08:20 BingoBoingo watching the gringo's language learning in real time.
08:22 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all
08:22 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 18910.01, vol: 14251.02644525 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 18736.0, vol: 61903.85854873 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 18909.0, vol: 3672.105393 | Volume-weighted last average: 18775.0230839
08:23 BingoBoingo Gracias por sus Crashing!
08:25 shinohai DIOS MIO CRASHING!!!!!
08:25 BingoBoingo Senor dios, mas crashing por favor.
08:34 * BingoBoingo baking a blog post, he caminado mucho este Domingo pasado
~ 35 minutes ~
09:09 deedbot http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2017/12/18/a-second-sunday-for-the-midwestern-rube/ << Bingo Blog - A Second Sunday For the Midwestern Rube
09:10 BingoBoingo ^ Bonus observation: The drive to grow my own tomatoes, not as strong here. Pretty delicious tomatoes rather available.
~ 18 minutes ~
09:28 BingoBoingo !~bcstats
09:28 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 499975 | Current Difficulty: 1.873105475221E12 | Next Difficulty At Block: 501983 | Next Difficulty In: 2008 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: None | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
~ 1 hours 17 minutes ~
10:46 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo how come you're still in hotels anyway ?
10:46 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Not hotels, the hostel.
10:46 BingoBoingo share bedroom with 8 persons
10:46 BingoBoingo *7 persons, I am the 8th
10:47 mircea_popescu why not rent ?
10:48 BingoBoingo Language exposure, plan is renting an apartment in February when vacation season is a least winding down.
10:49 mircea_popescu what's the current arrangement cost you per month ?
10:50 BingoBoingo ~550 USD, studio apartment rents here are roughly ~600 USD monthly
10:51 BingoBoingo Arrangement comes with bed, locker, common areas occupied by rotating cast of new people
10:51 mircea_popescu ah, makes sense.
10:52 mircea_popescu *thumbsup*
10:52 BingoBoingo Also buys time for meeting roommate capable persons
10:52 mircea_popescu yea
10:54 BingoBoingo Renting an apartment now would mean either gambling on roomates for the long haul or undertaking an exercise which introduces wasted hours of solitude not exposed to languages
10:54 mircea_popescu i agreed like five lines above!
10:55 BingoBoingo Yeah, but reiterating the problem for log readers. The hotel/hostel confusion seems to be a persistent one in conversations.
10:55 BingoBoingo Especially with the locals
10:57 BingoBoingo Anyways, if this were a hotel and I were paying hotel prices... the minor for hostel structural and chinche issues would not be so easily dismissed, and there would be wrath
10:59 BingoBoingo Anyways, now that business is baking I'll be touring the datacenter tomorrow.
11:03 BingoBoingo Next Friday one of the other enterprises is throwing a "Welcome to Uruguay" welcome asado for the gringo, which I should be much more awake for than the end of the year celebration asado they threw at the cowork which coincided with the day of my arrival.
11:05 mircea_popescu nice.
11:05 BingoBoingo The locals are a very welcoming people.
11:06 mircea_popescu samba si...
11:07 BingoBoingo Argentina's slogan is the lie "Argentina no es un pais pobre", Montevideo's is the truth "Montevideo es muy tranquilo"
↖ ↖ ↖
11:07 mircea_popescu ya twas not bad.
11:19 mircea_popescu aaand in today's ancient trilemas, http://trilema.com/2013/in-which-life-moves-on/
11:19 mircea_popescu esthlos you know how to self-voice, right ?
11:24 BingoBoingo Ah, that great announcement where the leverage had moved
11:26 mircea_popescu looking retrospectively, i suspect the great lure of "tech" such that "boys turn to tech, girls turn to poundcake" is in fact that if well done, tech seems to be the closest thing one has to fountain of eternal youth.
11:26 mircea_popescu through the following mechanism : "Has it only been four years ?!?!?!?" asks the boy. "I think I aged less than that's worth", ie, "good use of my time", ie... a derivative sort of youth elixir.
11:28 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i am hard pressed to think of any kind of tradesman ( outside of, i suppose, walmart gulag ) who has ~less~ to show for his years, than the typical tech d00d
11:28 mircea_popescu used to be money, back when "thus britons for lucre fly over the main". but these days... "Women have never had money, continue to have no money, and never will have any money. The only reason women can “own” property in this day and age is because you can’t “own” property in this day and age."
11:28 mircea_popescu asciilifeform tech ~well done~.
11:28 mircea_popescu it's an aspiration not an avocation.
11:28 mircea_popescu which is why "surprised by wealth" exists as a concept. ers wasn't being creative, he was being... you know, manly. filling a pre-existing hole.
11:30 BingoBoingo Ah, most d00ds aspiring to tech end up in alt walmart baggery
11:30 asciilifeform esr. ( for fyootoor log searchers pulling their hair out )
11:30 mircea_popescu a sorry.
11:33 mircea_popescu trinque can you run <g id="graph0" class="graph" transform="scale(1 1) rotate(0) translate(4 15840.7)"> on a dataset composed of log link references / nick references ?
↖
11:34 mircea_popescu or more properly speaking i suppose, can you v that thing so phf can then not plop into his ever-growing lisp visualizer because it's not written in lisp and tee hee ?
↖
11:44 mircea_popescu !!up sofiababy
11:44 deedbot sofiababy voiced for 30 minutes.
11:45 mircea_popescu this log needs lengthening!
11:45 sofiababy damn i thought evryone would be sleeping
11:45 mircea_popescu do your thing sofiababy
11:45 sofiababy im fixing the entry
11:45 sofiababy i hate beging for voice
11:46 sofiababy i want to be in with the cool kids
11:46 mircea_popescu but...why ?
11:46 sofiababy why not
11:46 mircea_popescu that's a point.
11:46 sofiababy i like it here
11:46 sofiababy and you welcome me with open arms so
11:49 mircea_popescu "Eventually if you keep buying you either run out of money or run out of looking like a sucker." ahaha.
11:49 mircea_popescu god i love reading the old shit.
11:49 mircea_popescu !~ticker market --all
11:49 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: (ticker [--bid|--ask|--last|--high|--low|--avg|--vol] [--currency XXX] [--market <market>|all]) -- Return pretty-printed ticker. Default market is Bitfinex. If one of the result options is given, returns only that numeric result (useful for nesting in calculations). If '--currency XXX' option is given, returns ticker for that three-letter currency code. It is up to you to make sure the code is a valid (1 more message)
11:49 mircea_popescu gah
11:50 mircea_popescu !~calc (18775.0230839/15)**(1/6)
11:50 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: (18775.0230839/15)**(1/6) = 3.282828562886639
11:50 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all
11:50 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 18670.99, vol: 15013.73187916 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 18501.0, vol: 63074.68145741 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 18675.0, vol: 3774.33123335 | Volume-weighted last average: 18540.198758
11:50 mircea_popescu that's a thousand dollars with an annualized growth rate of 328% eh. NOT BAD
11:50 mircea_popescu talk about "running out of looking like a sucker".
11:56 BingoBoingo Lol, poor gangsta roll. A victim of "When?"
11:58 BingoBoingo Still sweeter is watching the crashing. So much crashing.
~ 15 minutes ~
12:14 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753005 << speaking of rums, apparently india actually makes some pretty decent ones
12:14 a111 Logged on 2017-12-18 01:52 cazalla: i bought a bottle of that reserva, was nice, i still prefer bundy rum (although the one i like can't be bought now)
12:14 mircea_popescu hung out with restaurant owner guy, got a sampler. old monk seemed best
12:16 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753038 <<->> "Men, on the other hand, attach penalties to marriage, depriving women of property, of the franchise, of the free use of their limbs, of that ancient symbol of immortality, the right to make oneself at home in the house of God by taking off the hat, of everything that he can force Woman to dispense with without compelling himself to dispense with her. All in vain. Woman must mar
12:16 a111 Logged on 2017-12-18 02:01 cazalla: sofiababy, no, stopped watching twitch after it was inundated with gamer girl camwhores, but i read they do well sparking up league of legends, chatting to virgins and getting them to donate to their patreon
12:16 mircea_popescu ry because the race must perish without her travail: if the risk of death and the certainty of pain, danger, and unutterable discomforts cannot deter her, slavery and swaddled ankles will not. And yet we assume that the force that carries women through all these perils and hardships, stops abashed before the primnesses of our behavior for young ladies."
12:18 mircea_popescu let it be stated that the deep root of the whole "prostitution is unfeminist" current stems from about the same place as "it's in poor taste to sell them lost in the desert water at extortionate prices".
12:19 mircea_popescu which is why the whole "men will do anything to get some" social fiction, with it's attendant "surprises" of the thoroughly fabricated sort, "i can't believe far far away somewhere in like japan they don't". gotta mask the bitter truth that ~woman~ will do anything to get some. literal anything.
12:20 BingoBoingo Aha
12:20 BingoBoingo !!up sofiababy
12:20 deedbot sofiababy voiced for 30 minutes.
12:20 sofiababy im streaming and reading this
12:20 sofiababy i saw something about prostittion
12:20 mircea_popescu lol are you becoming a republican ho ?
12:20 sofiababy dude evry one is a prostitute to some degree
12:21 mircea_popescu i can see it.
12:21 sofiababy evry one is selling time one way or another
12:21 sofiababy i think i am actually
12:21 sofiababy lol is that weird
12:21 mircea_popescu sofiababy hey, do you have voice on your cam thing or just video ? can you talk to the virgins ?
12:21 sofiababy both
12:21 sofiababy nothing wrong with being pure
12:22 mircea_popescu o hey, so here's a deal, read out the log to them. i'll pay you say a bitcent for an hour.
12:22 mircea_popescu start say 10 minutes ago.
12:23 mircea_popescu and drop your link so people can check it out lol.
12:23 mircea_popescu give that lh0 or what was it a run for its money lol.
12:23 sofiababy okay
12:23 sofiababy lets do it
12:24 sofiababy what do i read?
12:24 sofiababy cant say anything racist
12:24 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753439 << start there and read down.
12:24 a111 Logged on 2017-12-18 16:07 BingoBoingo: Argentina's slogan is the lie "Argentina no es un pais pobre", Montevideo's is the truth "Montevideo es muy tranquilo"
12:25 mircea_popescu sofiababy link to your camshow, what is it ?
12:25 sofiababy www.myfreecams.com/#sexyxshanti
12:25 sofiababy does it work
12:26 mircea_popescu o hey, it does actually.
12:26 sofiababy hi mp
12:26 sofiababy im wavin at u
12:27 mircea_popescu hm, must be a recorded thing.
12:28 sofiababy there is a delay
12:28 sofiababy there servers aint that good
12:28 sofiababy its nnot fox news
12:28 mircea_popescu ah
12:29 mircea_popescu alright, so go for it.
12:30 sofiababy what am i doing
12:30 sofiababy director MP
12:30 sofiababy lol
12:31 mircea_popescu go to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753439 which is a webpage like any other webpage and start reading down from there.
12:31 a111 Logged on 2017-12-18 16:07 BingoBoingo: Argentina's slogan is the lie "Argentina no es un pais pobre", Montevideo's is the truth "Montevideo es muy tranquilo"
12:33 sofiababy ahaha ppl are gona think
12:33 sofiababy im on drsg
12:33 sofiababy drugs
12:33 sofiababy loooooool
12:33 mircea_popescu who knows. maybe they think you're the only smart camho on mfc.
12:33 mircea_popescu or else yeah, drugs.
12:33 sofiababy this guys r stooopid
12:33 sofiababy they wil think im on drugs
12:33 ben_vulpes who cares what they think?
12:34 sofiababy i read the conversatio
12:34 sofiababy i cant do the spanish
12:34 mircea_popescu especially if they're dumb.
12:34 sofiababy i duno how to pronouse
12:34 sofiababy pronounc
12:34 mircea_popescu sofiababy do your best. you also don't know how to fuck, but you do your best and it works out.
12:35 sofiababy im not sexual
12:35 sofiababy im a nerd
12:35 sofiababy deep down
12:35 sofiababy just like them
12:35 mircea_popescu right.
12:35 mircea_popescu everyone's a nerd deep down. way the fuck easier than being a miner deep down.
12:35 mircea_popescu also, better healthy and wealthy than sick and poor.
12:37 sofiababy omg
12:37 sofiababy really?
12:37 sofiababy im a woman
12:37 sofiababy i cant read this
12:37 sofiababy ur mean
12:38 mircea_popescu the quote is actually from bernard shaw.
12:38 asciilifeform i r disappoint, i thought this was a jaguar , that mircea_popescu taught to use a keyboard
12:38 diana_coman that meanie bernard shaw...
12:38 mircea_popescu who, other than being a major fascist supporter, was also a guy reputedly so smart, some woman wrote to him to propose having babies on the theory she's so pretty.
12:38 sofiababy seriosly europes most powerfu leader
12:38 sofiababy is a woman
12:38 diana_coman power-fu indeed
12:38 mircea_popescu who, laura antonelli ?
12:38 sofiababy mama merkel
12:39 mircea_popescu menopausal items are eminently not women
12:39 mircea_popescu merkel is an ex-woman.
12:39 mircea_popescu asciilifeform and your proof to the contrary being... ?
12:39 sofiababy ex woman or not
12:39 sofiababy shes stil a woman
12:39 sofiababy one hell of a woman
12:40 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: nuffin but the critter's own word!11
12:40 sofiababy bought her biography
12:40 sofiababy i havent read it yet
12:40 mircea_popescu asciilifeform dun believe everything you read! sofiababy how do you reason ?
12:40 asciilifeform i'ma bbl.
12:41 mircea_popescu anyway, anyone actually can be bothered to check teh cam ? is she actyually logreading ?
12:41 sofiababy i did
12:41 sofiababy and i stopped
12:41 sofiababy when i read
12:41 sofiababy women wil never own property
12:41 sofiababy and no1 on mfc acknowledgges anything unless its tits
12:42 mircea_popescu oh! that's now shaw, that's... what was his name ?
12:42 mircea_popescu dick masterson
12:42 sofiababy these guys are different
12:42 sofiababy like honestly
12:42 sofiababy i didnt know such humans existed
12:42 sofiababy apathetic horny fuckers
12:42 ben_vulpes no reading is happening
12:42 ben_vulpes for five seconds, an interesting thing happened on mfc
12:42 mircea_popescu heh
12:43 sofiababy leo should be proud
12:43 mircea_popescu let us reiterate that ancient http://trilema.com/2017/the-practical-costs-of-hallucinated-freedom/
12:43 mircea_popescu nothing interesting can happen on mfc because mfc is composed of a) the people there who b) operate under the delusion they may make choices.
12:43 ben_vulpes dude a bitcent an hour
12:44 mircea_popescu the result is a matter of necessity in those circumstances.
12:44 ben_vulpes sofiababy: what the hell is wrong with you
12:44 sofiababy i know
12:44 sofiababy but
12:44 sofiababy no buuts actually
12:44 sofiababy lol
12:44 mircea_popescu lmao.
12:44 sofiababy i can continue
12:44 sofiababy i just got hurt
12:44 sofiababy with that quote
12:44 sofiababy sorry
12:45 mircea_popescu move into the pain not away from it. pain is good for you.
12:45 mircea_popescu or as the orthodox tradition says, "durerea-i ziditoare"
12:45 sofiababy are you orthodox
12:45 mircea_popescu no, i'm just cultivated.
12:45 sofiababy is the romanian calender same as greek
12:45 mircea_popescu ~approx, yea.
12:46 sofiababy so easter isnt the same
12:46 sofiababy its a month latter i think
12:46 ben_vulpes dude this is epic, girl would rather talk about calendar offsets than earn a bitcent an hour reading the log
↖
12:46 mircea_popescu 2018 ro easter will be on april 8th
12:47 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes this is why artificial intelligence will never be able to compete with the genuine article.
12:47 sofiababy i didnt refuse
12:47 sofiababy fyi
12:47 trinque girl will faff about trying to make sure they see all sides of her until someone grabs hold.
12:47 mircea_popescu ^
12:47 sofiababy lol
12:48 mircea_popescu faff. i didn't even know that was a word.
12:48 trinque texanism with either a little girl or queer connotation
12:48 mircea_popescu apparently brits also have it.
12:49 trinque hm neat
12:49 sofiababy faff means
12:49 sofiababy well over here like people use it in context like
12:49 sofiababy faff about
12:49 sofiababy faffin about
12:49 mircea_popescu it's what he said lol.
12:49 ben_vulpes doing anything but that which needs doing.
12:49 sofiababy like taking time to do something
12:49 sofiababy yea
12:49 sofiababy there
12:49 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes you don't understand how self-determination works!!1
12:50 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: oh i understand this, i also understand how fist fits in cunt doesn't mean i'm not entertained from time to time with the concrete item
12:50 mircea_popescu lol
12:50 ben_vulpes holy fuckadoodle, imagine getting paid a bitcent an hour to do your six months
12:50 ben_vulpes what a fuckin thing.
12:51 ben_vulpes she would literally rather dance for tips
12:51 mircea_popescu and as bonus lulz, we'll never know whether i would have actually paid the whole length or not.
12:51 mircea_popescu this is the true meaning of being wealthy, when your wealth stays wealthy for longer than the world stays active. they run out of puff afore you run out of dosh
12:53 mircea_popescu and in other lulz, i myself wasn't making a current bitcent an hour until sometime after 2010. ie, quite recently.
~ 23 minutes ~
13:16 shinohai Tenth of a bitcent per hour fine with me per hour
13:16 shinohai lol
13:23 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753256 << no. the naive bare life (bios as opposed to zoon, see http://trilema.com/2014/it-all-depends-on-what-power-means/#selection-109.0-106.2 ) approach is that sunken costs matter. this feeds right into shaw above. whereas any gambler worth two shits knows you... fold when you know it can't win, not when you judge you can afford to lose "your" share of the pot.
13:23 a111 Logged on 2017-12-18 03:04 asciilifeform: napoleon's syndrome?
~ 33 minutes ~
13:57 BingoBoingo <sofiababy> i duno how to pronouse << It's purely phonetic, Except when it's not.
14:11 BingoBoingo <shinohai> Tenth of a bitcent per hour fine with me per hour << Perhaps the baroness can?
14:17 BingoBoingo Y ahora tengo una otra cita por manana en la noche
~ 15 minutes ~
14:33 asciilifeform !#s negative block reward
14:33 a111 0 results for "negative block reward", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=negative%20block%20reward
14:33 asciilifeform hmm, could've sworn we had a thread...
14:35 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753455 << hm?
14:35 a111 Logged on 2017-12-18 16:34 mircea_popescu: or more properly speaking i suppose, can you v that thing so phf can then not plop into his ever-growing lisp visualizer because it's not written in lisp and tee hee ?
~ 1 hours 1 minutes ~
15:36 phf !!key PeterL
15:36 deedbot http://wot.deedbot.org/F595258CD9F1FDBDEFAE5093B4E2E0DCACB63D25.asc
15:39 phf asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch3_shifts in press order you can see all the mentioned sigs included
15:39 asciilifeform neato, ty phf !
~ 19 minutes ~
15:58 mircea_popescu phf you know, that pretty graphing item
~ 16 minutes ~
16:14 ben_vulpes https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/dec/18/report-obama-protected-hezbollah-drug-ring-to-avoi/
~ 38 minutes ~
16:52 mircea_popescu in other news : the mpi m-r implementation has a fixed witness at 2.
16:53 diana_coman gnupg m-r implementation rather
16:53 mircea_popescu right.
16:53 mircea_popescu anyone with a good reason why magic number should stay ?
16:56 mircea_popescu seems a gratuitous (but not readily computable) degradation of the 4^-k outer bound.
17:10 * mircea_popescu waves at esthlos
17:11 * esthlos waves back
17:13 mircea_popescu !~calc 4^-12
17:13 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: 4^-12 = 5.9604644775390625E-8
17:13 mircea_popescu !~calc 4^-16
17:13 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: 4^-16 = 2.3283064365386963E-10
17:15 mircea_popescu diana_coman should prolly add a comment in there pointing out to people who are making keys for serious use that 1e-10 is really not nearly good enough.
17:15 mircea_popescu or rather 4.6e-10 as the case may be, since you need two.
17:16 diana_coman mircea_popescu, I think this might be worth made into a knob in the code explicitly
17:16 mircea_popescu this is so.
17:17 mircea_popescu and yes i'm aware damgard extensions and whatnot, but not impressed.
17:20 mircea_popescu incidentally, anyone wanna implement agrawal-kayal-saxena ? esthlos ? apeloyee ?
↖
17:23 mircea_popescu some crandall fellow supposedly "implemented" it, but apparently out of unpublishable sticks of gum arabic.
17:24 esthlos mircea_popescu: if I can. what is it?
17:24 mircea_popescu you know, three indian kids got a godel prize a decade ago for the first ever primality test that's deterministic, polynomial and unconditional
17:24 mircea_popescu AND general.
17:25 mircea_popescu given n > 2 and a coprime to n, n is prime only if (x+a)^n mod-congruent x^n+a (mod n)
17:25 esthlos well what do you know, richard crandall
17:25 esthlos i was acquainted with him
17:25 mircea_popescu actually, lenstra supposedly made it actually run. initially it was very high order polynomial.
17:26 mircea_popescu but nobody actually publishes anything anymore.
17:27 mircea_popescu actually it's possible bernstein had a variant too.
17:27 mircea_popescu come to think of it.
17:27 diana_coman esthlos, "primes is in p" is the original paper describing aks; by agrawal, kayal and saxena, you'll find it easily
17:28 esthlos okay this is cool, will implement
17:29 mircea_popescu esthlos ada. see ffa for a basis
17:29 mircea_popescu iirc it has berett reductions already etc
17:30 esthlos diana_coman: thanks
17:30 mircea_popescu http://yves.gallot.pagesperso-orange.fr/src/aks_gmp.html << supposed c++ impl ; though i have nfi who gallot fellow is.
↖
17:32 mircea_popescu http://yves.gallot.pagesperso-orange.fr/arbregen.html << tho apparently there's a genealogy tree going back to 1600s, so how bad can it be.
17:33 esthlos mircea_popescu: is there a preference on how I compute totient?
17:33 mircea_popescu do i get a closed set to pick amongst ?
17:33 mircea_popescu !#s totient
17:33 a111 7 results for "totient", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=totient
17:36 esthlos I don't have anything specific in mind
17:37 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753680 << it's worthlessly slow
17:37 a111 Logged on 2017-12-18 22:20 mircea_popescu: incidentally, anyone wanna implement agrawal-kayal-saxena ? esthlos ? apeloyee ?
17:37 asciilifeform as in, century per key.
17:37 mircea_popescu esthlos look through the various FFA items as pasted by asciilifeform first ; to get an idea what the item is like. so you don't have to wait till he's finished publishing it all
17:38 mircea_popescu asciilifeform tell you what, m-r as found in gpg, with its "12" that are really 11 witnesses is worthlessly useless.
↖
17:38 mircea_popescu at this juncture having options is the right move. let user decide.
17:38 asciilifeform option that dun terminate before user dies of old age, dun help much
17:38 mircea_popescu it's not THAT bad.
17:38 asciilifeform matter of fact, it is. unless there's been a serious advance that i slept through
17:39 asciilifeform m-r with programmable iteration knob is however worth making imho
17:39 asciilifeform ( we even had thread, not long ago )
17:40 asciilifeform ( where asciilifeform observed that, for serious battlefield key, a month of pre-use m-r, plus a box doing it continuously ~4evah , is not excessive )
17:40 mircea_popescu rather than being all negative!!!, got a review copy of ffa somewhere to pass to esthlos ?
17:40 asciilifeform fed with fg naturally.
17:40 asciilifeform it's on my www, what
17:41 asciilifeform and on phf's
17:41 * mircea_popescu looks
17:41 asciilifeform or mircea_popescu was asking for other-than-ch1-3 ?
17:41 mircea_popescu yes, whole item
17:42 asciilifeform this is tricky business because i changed a great many things, ch1-3 is in many ways incompatible with the old item
17:42 asciilifeform and no i have no intention of dropping it out of schedule
17:42 mircea_popescu what i mean by "review copy" ; last complete item
17:42 mircea_popescu so he has something to work on, rather than wait for tutorial completion, is the logic
17:42 asciilifeform there was a version given to mod6 , should be in the log somewhere , that had all of the basic arithmetic (+,-,*,/)
17:42 mircea_popescu did it have barett reduction ?
17:43 asciilifeform nope, and the complete barrett is unreleased , it is not up to releasable standard yet
17:43 mircea_popescu alright.
17:43 asciilifeform i very muchly recommend that all n00bs, regardless of skill, follow the www tutorial
17:43 asciilifeform material will make 9000x moarsense
17:44 mircea_popescu esthlos i'd love for you to be able to jump straight into this ; however there's some groundwork to be laid. look into the V system, because ideally you'd be presenting the finished item as a patch on diana's eucrypt lib. and asciilifeform is working on and publishing a final FFA which is what we intend to use here.
17:44 mircea_popescu so do that first ; then.
17:45 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753708 <- in gpg it's "5" which is 4, lol
17:45 a111 Logged on 2017-12-18 22:38 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform tell you what, m-r as found in gpg, with its "12" that are really 11 witnesses is worthlessly useless.
17:45 mircea_popescu that said, a gmp version pushed out as a patch on mpi might not be entirely without merit.
17:45 esthlos mircea_popescu: alright. I've been thinking of writing a v implementation following http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-participate-in-the-affairs-of-the-most-serene-republic/
17:45 mircea_popescu diana_coman right right. 12 was our update.
17:45 mircea_popescu esthlos not a bad idea. what's your language ?
17:46 esthlos mircea_popescu: right now I'm most comfortable in scheme, but I want to change that to common lisp
17:46 esthlos so probably CL
17:46 mircea_popescu afaik no scheme vtron extant.
17:46 esthlos well that works then
17:46 asciilifeform ben_vulpes had something resembling a CL one
17:47 mircea_popescu yes. if you want you cal look up tje log for ben_vulpes ' item or else write your own in cl and compare after.
17:47 * asciilifeform recommends that n00bz write own, from scratch, without looking even at mine
17:49 esthlos mmk
17:50 asciilifeform btw if esthlos ( or anyone else, anywhere ) knows how to aks on 2048b primes in nongeological time, i'll happily port their algo to ffa, even if original is in cobol
17:51 asciilifeform (err, candidate-primes)
17:52 asciilifeform even something with, e.g., 6 month, run time, can be useful. ( esp. if parallelizable )
17:53 mircea_popescu asciilifeform for my curiosity, run the above linked c++ gmp item
17:53 mircea_popescu it is not THAT slow.
17:53 esthlos noob question: why not use a fast nondeterministic algo and sieve on the results?
17:53 mircea_popescu esthlos we're already using m-r.
17:53 esthlos ah
17:54 asciilifeform esthlos: point is , there exists a guaranteed-correct algo. using it, supposing it were practical, is The One Right Thing
17:54 mircea_popescu this'd be a special alternate because we're very unhappy with the fact that a) "everonye" (=usg) uses m-r and b) evidently lies about the strength assumptions.
17:54 mircea_popescu and so we'd like to have an alternative, if for no reason then just to have it.
17:55 mircea_popescu asciilifeform at this point there's little doubt in my mind that >0 of the items cracked by phuctor were bona-fide keys, composite slipped past the 4+1 round m-r.
17:55 mircea_popescu it'd be worth it at this point to see which of the composite "primes" have the whole set of primes under say 29 as strong liars.
17:56 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the only 1 that might fit the shape of this item is the german 'research key' one
17:56 mircea_popescu why ?
17:57 asciilifeform the only 1 with factors sized somewhere near half the bitness of the modulus, other than the khadeer key ( which had P == nextprime(Q) , which dun fit the bill )
17:57 mircea_popescu the factors don't matter.
17:57 mircea_popescu a composite that passes a low round m-r can be composite of >2 factors np.
17:58 asciilifeform y'know , this hypothesis is testable
17:58 mircea_popescu this is what i say : reconstruct the original two "primes" of which at least one wasn't ; then see which of such items have in fact low primes as strong liars.
17:58 mircea_popescu it is testable, yes.
17:58 asciilifeform and i'ma test it as soon as dulap-III is up ( btw crate of raid cards just came in last hour )
17:58 mircea_popescu o hey.
17:58 asciilifeform walk the known prime-divisors and see how many pass gpg-1.4.10's litmus
17:59 * asciilifeform currently suspects that none will, but nobody suspects worth a damn until -- found
17:59 mircea_popescu so the recipe would be, "for every composite N, sort the factors so as to obtain two 2048 bit chunks ; then check whether 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17 are strong liars for the item.
18:00 mircea_popescu iirc there was a "study" showing how "it is enough to test these" for whatever size.
18:02 mircea_popescu (for the record : it is a fact that there exist infinite composites so that their SMALLEST witness is at least ln (n) ^ 1/(3 * ln (ln(ln(n))). yet "cryptography community" keeps doing this small witness bs.)
18:03 asciilifeform place of 'cryptographic community' is the lime pit.
18:04 mircea_popescu for the record, if n = 2 ^ 2048, that limit is ~238.728599954.
18:05 mircea_popescu ie gpg is wasting its time with "oh, let's see if 2 is a witness".
18:05 mircea_popescu and i have a good mind to mandate eucrypt impl of m-r actually uses 2^8 ie 256 as minimum.
18:05 * asciilifeform loox at http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753697 ...
18:05 a111 Logged on 2017-12-18 22:30 mircea_popescu: http://yves.gallot.pagesperso-orange.fr/src/aks_gmp.html << supposed c++ impl ; though i have nfi who gallot fellow is.
18:06 diana_coman I suspect the 2 is basically the...potato soup of gpg: cheapest available
18:06 mircea_popescu "worked well for export keys hurr durr snort snort"
18:08 mircea_popescu asciilifeform importantly, re the test above : not the ~factors~ must be tested, but the actual composite p or q, as reconstructed from the factors.
18:09 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: consider how phuctor decided which numbers are 'completely' phuctored , to begin with
18:09 mircea_popescu bernstein smooth parts of integers empowered sieve popped a factor ?
18:09 asciilifeform say i have 2 2048b pieces on the table.
18:10 asciilifeform i'm left with... m-4
18:10 asciilifeform grrrr
18:10 asciilifeform m-r
18:10 asciilifeform to say if 'there's moar' or not.
18:10 mircea_popescu i don't think i follow.
18:11 asciilifeform phuctor finds a divisor. if it is toobig for sieving, i'm left with m-r, when asking whether it is a ~prime~ divisor.
18:11 mircea_popescu aha...
18:11 asciilifeform so from that pov i have no access to the original p,q that gpg may have generated, for any of the keys
18:12 mircea_popescu consider something like
18:12 asciilifeform only to a numbers that are factors of 2 or moar moduli. and they dun come with any certificate of primality, except for the smallest 'dust' ones
18:12 mircea_popescu !#s E668E8C9185CD163C976FB378648E3842D4774D508DB7C3B13C43DB30E92C064
18:12 a111 2 results for "E668E8C9185CD163C976FB378648E3842D4774D508DB7C3B13C43DB30E92C064", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=E668E8C9185CD163C976FB378648E3842D4774D508DB7C3B13C43DB30E92C064
18:13 asciilifeform https://archive.is/EJSOD
18:13 asciilifeform good example.
18:13 mircea_popescu right.
18:14 asciilifeform and the bottom item was reported as a factor on account of each, taken separately, having passed gmp's m-r after the 1st was found.
18:14 asciilifeform makes sense ?
18:15 mircea_popescu yes ; but the first ?
18:15 mircea_popescu was it ever checked whether it would appear prime to koch-gpg ?
18:15 asciilifeform the first passed m-r . it's the only primality test currently in battlefield use.
18:16 asciilifeform not specifically; was tested only using gmp's m-r. really oughta do both.
18:16 mircea_popescu which is my point.
18:16 mircea_popescu or rather, part of my point.
18:16 asciilifeform but it isn't clear to me why weaker koch test would have different answer than stronger m-r
18:16 asciilifeform thinkaboutit, stronger m-r found both to be prime
18:16 mircea_popescu the ~other~ part of it is : suppose (i don't have example ready, but constructively) there's a N that popped into factors f1... fm.
18:17 asciilifeform that's what it'd actually look like, if this animal exists
18:17 asciilifeform rather than '2 fat factors'
18:17 asciilifeform it'd be one of the shit-dust ones
18:17 mircea_popescu each of these factors will have a bitness. admitting none of them has a bitness = 2048, they can be arranged into a p and a q so that each of these has a bitness of 2048
18:17 asciilifeform and we don't know how the shit-dust comes back together to form what gpg thought was primes
18:17 mircea_popescu the thus reconstructed p and q should be tested for whether they indeed have no true witness of compositeness as low as gpg tests.
18:18 mircea_popescu asciilifeform well, we pray. and we try.
18:18 mircea_popescu it's a finite set of factors, they work together into fixed bitnesses only so many ways.
18:19 asciilifeform btw that french aks is geological. n==11701 has been running for 10+ minutes, and is on ~9600; author's code indicates that answer appears at iteration 1000000007. that'd be 723 days on this box.
↖
18:19 mircea_popescu ie, suppose the factors f1... f8 have bitnesses of 1,1,2,2,3,3,2042,2042. so then we try f1f3f5f7 and f2f4f6f8. and we also try f2f3f5f7 f1f4f6f8. and so on.
18:19 asciilifeform for a 14 BIT NUMBER
18:20 asciilifeform and the order is log(n^6)
18:20 asciilifeform if somebody made a practical aks, it is a deep, dark seekrit from asciilifeform .
↖
18:21 mircea_popescu ugh.
18:21 asciilifeform i was hoping to find that i made a mistake, but the numberz check out.
18:21 asciilifeform i'ma let sumbodyelse alsotry, to make sure.
18:21 asciilifeform supposing anyone can be aroused to do it ( g++ aks.cpp -lgmp -o aks )
18:21 mircea_popescu the order IS log^6, which was the great progress, originally it was log^12
18:21 asciilifeform it was aha
18:22 mircea_popescu but the base factor can't be this fucking humongous ffs, it's just (x+a)^n vs x^n+a.
18:24 mircea_popescu (which, i confess, striked/strikes me as a seductively good idea)
18:24 asciilifeform this is one of those things that really begs for dedicated iron
18:25 mircea_popescu it does at that!
18:25 mircea_popescu incidentally...if this is so fucking slow... guess who just found a new pow.
18:25 asciilifeform ( though even there , you'd shed 1 or 2 from the exponent , not earth-shaking necessarily )
18:25 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: humour me, how wouldja turn this into a pow
18:25 asciilifeform i'ma allears
18:26 mircea_popescu suppose your block hashes to value n.
18:27 asciilifeform ok..
18:27 mircea_popescu let's take a = every other bit of n. to mine this block, you must produce an x so that x is twice the bitsize of n, and (x+a)^n is mod congruent to x^n + a (mod n)
18:29 asciilifeform so miner waltzed his nonce until it's a composite and trivial
18:29 asciilifeform what's to stop him
18:29 mircea_popescu primeness doesn't enter into this, we're just leveraging that apparently modexp is megaexpensive.
18:29 mircea_popescu ie, more expensive than plain shaing
18:30 asciilifeform sha2 (and for that matter other hashes) weren't built to be expensive, quite opposite
18:30 mircea_popescu exactly.
18:30 asciilifeform in applications where people want 'expensive', they ask for 1e6 or whatever iterated hashes
18:31 mircea_popescu but the contention here is that picking something like modexp is a better choice than just piling on hashes.
18:31 asciilifeform it's not necessarily good choice, in that it is very amenable to parallelization
18:31 asciilifeform ( multiplication parallelizes 3 ways , with karatsuba, and N ways with toom-cook )
18:32 mircea_popescu not sure that is a bad thing. but yes, evidently large topic for discussion.
18:32 asciilifeform modexp in turn can be cut into B mod-mults, where B is bitness
18:32 asciilifeform it's a bad thing if you want 'asic-resistant' or even fpga-resistant
18:32 mircea_popescu it's not clear at this stage what you want.
18:32 asciilifeform i was about to say
18:32 mircea_popescu but it's certainly there.
18:33 asciilifeform after 5yr of thinking about it daily, asciilifeform still has nfi what even ought to be asked of a pow !!
↖
18:33 asciilifeform mining intrinsically, i suspect, suxx, and fiddling with pow won't make any dent in it
18:34 asciilifeform ( sucks for the reason, incidentally, that mircea_popescu already fingered , http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-02#1745524 and elsewhere )
18:34 a111 Logged on 2017-12-02 16:22 mircea_popescu: anwyay, revisiting an ancient conversation re http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=mining+is+a+bug : i have to thoroughly concede this point to asciilifeform . the model is as follows : if a) a PoW system exists in which b) a participating entity can recognize work done by itself as opposed to work done by others then it NECESSARILY follow that entity can, and therefore it ALSO follows that it eventually will c) impose further con
18:34 mircea_popescu myeah
~ 16 minutes ~
18:50 mircea_popescu in other lulz : 32 hectares of land across the strip from the flamingo cost under 1mn in 1962.
18:55 asciilifeform that's, what, 100m in modern printolade neh
18:55 mircea_popescu i have no idea what the item would even cost today. billions, prolly.
18:55 asciilifeform this is in cr ?
18:55 mircea_popescu the strip is in las vegas
18:56 asciilifeform aaaaa
18:56 asciilifeform lol
18:56 * asciilifeform was scratchinghead, puzzled
18:57 asciilifeform upstack in re 'mining is a bug' , asciilifeform has a theoretical pill, potentially interesting , but will chew on it for some weeks -- there's gotta be a catch
18:58 mircea_popescu maybe say $1k / sqm or so. 32 hectares = 320mn ?
18:58 asciilifeform ( it is specifically a pill against 'can recognize work done by itself as opposed to work done by others' aspect )
↖
18:59 mircea_popescu should be interesting.
18:59 asciilifeform possibly.
19:00 asciilifeform it uses an algo from an ancient mircea_popescu thread
19:00 asciilifeform ( 'pow in tx not in block' )
19:00 asciilifeform but i'ma bbl: meat.
~ 1 hours 13 minutes ~
20:14 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all
20:14 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 18893.0, vol: 13502.62107269 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 18804.0, vol: 45094.04913747 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 18765.2, vol: 3090.86572362 | Volume-weighted last average: 18821.5368925
~ 22 minutes ~
20:36 shinohai yay no more crumble #maga http://archive.is/kmHhk
20:37 shinohai But I always like my apple kyklos cake a bit crumbly
~ 30 minutes ~
21:08 * asciilifeform wonders whether he gotta commit another warcrime in the spirit of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-28#1619719 , or to simply lay the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753876 item out in the l0gz, reasonably compactly.
21:08 a111 Logged on 2017-02-28 05:40 asciilifeform: [BTC-dev] (CRACKPOTTERY) Notes re: one possible "TRB-I".
21:08 a111 Logged on 2017-12-18 23:58 asciilifeform: ( it is specifically a pill against 'can recognize work done by itself as opposed to work done by others' aspect )
21:08 phf asciilifeform, mircea_popescu do we want to keep the exclude functionality? i sometimes use it in test runs, but this'll let me get rid of regex (for now anyway)
↖
21:08 asciilifeform which is this, phf
21:08 phf diff
21:09 asciilifeform what does 'exclude' do
21:09 phf right, realized too late :p
21:09 asciilifeform no srsly what's it do
21:10 phf there's a couple of places where regex is used. exclude filters files by name, (so --exclude=.*c will skip those files by regex), exclude lines filters lines (obviously is not compatible with v), and there's also a function grabber, it's a little piece of code that ensures that, say, c function headers or certain pattern matching lines are in the hunk context
21:11 asciilifeform why wouldja do this, phf ?
21:11 asciilifeform i've never done it
21:11 asciilifeform i have scripts that ruthlessly thermonuke the kind of rubbish that doesn't get diffed, instead.
21:11 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-20#1485519
21:11 a111 Logged on 2016-06-20 04:23 phf: which is handy if you're using something else to produce the patch, or if you need to use a non-trivial diff command. for example i sometimes need to exclude files from diffing, so a command might look like diff -x foo -x bar -x qux -ruN a b | grep -v '^Binary files ' | vdiff > foo.vpatch
21:11 asciilifeform ( e.g., gprclean actually cleans ffa . )
21:12 asciilifeform that's what cleaning's for
21:12 phf but i don't go into the details there either
21:12 phf right
21:12 asciilifeform dunwanna diff it -- dun put it where things are gettin'diffed
21:12 phf hey, less work for me™
21:13 * phf has been listening to The Dubliners, has a skewed perspective on work at the moment
21:14 * phf does a little jig
21:14 asciilifeform '...there's whiskey in the jar...'
21:14 phf :D
21:15 phf apropos out yesterday's mini thread about whisky. the only good kind of whisky comes in the jar
21:15 * asciilifeform has yet to taste this mythical item, 'good whisky'
21:16 * asciilifeform sings silently '...Говорили мне ребята: "Виски ты не пей", А я как только виски тресну, Так мне чудится фигня...'
21:16 asciilifeform ( sores -- http://shaov.kulichki.com/texts/volshebstvo.htm )
21:22 asciilifeform upstack re pow item : i'ma leave an observation for mircea_popescu ( and others, but he's prolly the one to crack this nut properly ) . consider how in classical bitcoin , pow is used for 2 entirely different and quite orthogonal items : initialcoindistribution, and rewindprotection (i.e. preventing history-rewriting) . it's a bulldog-rhinoceros. so q is, suppose that coin distribution somehow took place at t==0. do you still need po
21:22 asciilifeform w for antireplay ? can you picture a scheme where... it doesn't.
21:22 asciilifeform suppose the bulldog and rhinoceros were cut apart.
21:23 asciilifeform *antirewind
21:24 asciilifeform this gedankenexperiment should be seen in light of the earlier 'all tx have absolute position and make references to absolutepositional outputs' item from earlier 'trbi' thread.
21:33 asciilifeform and, i'll add, in light of the luby proof-of-storage item.
↖
21:34 asciilifeform ( i.e. when you craft such a tx, you're doing it against a specific picture of whole blockchain, from t==0 to your highestknownblock )
21:38 asciilifeform prolly i'm doomed to describe a complete algo nao. so consider : no pow. a block is 2^20 bytes . it can hold a certain # of fixed-length tx ( i will not repeat earlier scheme, with the luby etc., imho it was adequate. ) ;
21:39 asciilifeform however there is no block reward. anyone can proclaim a block, so long as he can find one or more valid tx that haven't sat down in a block yet. the 'pow value' of the block , for the purpose of longest-chain, however, consists of the ~total coins moved~ in the tx-en that sat down in it.
21:41 asciilifeform to prevent 1 d00d with fat wallet from monopolizing all future blocks, would have to count 'mass' only for resolving forks of length 1 . (i.e. 1 block, however 'heavy', cannot 'outweigh' 2. )
21:42 asciilifeform i modelled this item on paper, and did not find any obvious place in which to put a crowbar and make the thing break apart in the 'rewrite history' sense.
21:43 asciilifeform but entirely possible that it was in my blind spot. so i'ma leave this here, and make moar detailed sketch if mircea_popescu asks , later.
21:47 asciilifeform ( to complete the picture above : no pow, but a tx ~does~ carry a lubyism, e.g. three lengths of 64bits , each of these the xor of 3 64bit substrings of the world-state, hashtronically selected based ~strictly on the tx payload's hash~ -- nothing to waltz, yer stuck with so-and-so lubyism obligation to fulfill by virtue of yer inputs being such-an-such and yer outputs such-an-such )
↖
21:51 phf first pass line reduction of diffutils, from 300407 to 50312
↖ ↖
21:52 asciilifeform oh hey
21:52 asciilifeform neato, phf
21:52 asciilifeform to round out the crackpottery : i've described what is more or less a working variant of ye olde warcrime, the multiverse coin
↖
21:53 asciilifeform ( each candidate-tx is irreversibly bound to its author's picture-at-the-time of the complete world history )
21:53 asciilifeform phf: lemme guess, it was by nuking autoconf
21:54 asciilifeform ( it was perhaps 80% of how asciilifeform cut koch-mpi , by similar proportion )
21:55 phf it's not even the entirety of autoconf, just things that are left un-included after fixing all the "missing file" errors from diff.c
21:56 asciilifeform kill autoconf. it has no place in this world.
21:56 asciilifeform it Must Die.
21:57 phf well, autoconf is not just scripts. it's also compatibility shims, which is a bit tricky in case of a differ, since, unlike mpi, it has a lot of file system interaction code, that might or might not be portable. anyway, we'll see
21:57 asciilifeform i suspect that if you ditch autoconf, and snip out ALL #ifdef crapola (esp. and inclusive of uniturdism and 'localism' ) you will end up with a sysv-sized util
21:57 phf obviously i'm not actually building it with autoconf
~ 24 minutes ~
22:22 phf -l --paginate
22:22 phf Pass the output through `pr' to paginate it.
22:22 phf wtf.
22:33 asciilifeform lol feepingcreaturism
22:35 phf not to mention a fucking palette parser
22:37 phf trick question, why do you need a signal handler in a differ?
↖
22:39 phf there's a concrete answer to that question!
22:42 asciilifeform dafuq?
22:44 phf well, if you baked in color support, your code periodically enables a color mode, but doesn't immediately disable it. instead colors spit out as the execution unfolds. but if you catch an interrupt, you end up with a borked terminal. hence fucking complicated ass signal machinery to ensure that color gets restored on hup or suspend
22:47 asciilifeform ffs
22:48 asciilifeform kill it with fire.
~ 19 minutes ~
23:08 * trinque noticing extremely fucky behavior around sending transactions with trb over the last few days at least.
23:08 trinque mats pointed out to me that all trb nodes he can see appeared to be consistently 50 blocks or more behind.
23:09 trinque obviously I'm looking into it, but I would like to hear what other people are seeing on their trb nodes.
↖
23:10 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1753889 << get rid of regex
23:10 a111 Logged on 2017-12-19 02:08 phf: asciilifeform, mircea_popescu do we want to keep the exclude functionality? i sometimes use it in test runs, but this'll let me get rid of regex (for now anyway)
23:12 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1753920 < obviously.
23:12 a111 Logged on 2017-12-19 02:33 asciilifeform: and, i'll add, in light of the luby proof-of-storage item.
23:13 mircea_popescu there's nothing fundamentally wrong with a non-mining coin, ie, where all coins are created at t0.
23:13 asciilifeform yea but would described algo wurk.
23:13 asciilifeform ... or can unwind.
23:14 mircea_popescu can unwind.
23:14 asciilifeform lesse how ?
23:14 mircea_popescu consider. how does your system discard forks ?
23:15 asciilifeform when you craft a tx, it presupposes 1 particular history.
23:15 asciilifeform and is invalid outside of it.
23:15 mircea_popescu yes. but when you encounter two different chains, how do you choose one ?
23:16 asciilifeform in the proposed algo -- the block, from all the alternatives you have, with greatest summed coinmovement
23:16 mircea_popescu so if at t0 the chain is C, and at t1 large owners decide they don't like C and retroactively create C' ?
23:17 mircea_popescu how can non-usg node correctly identify C' as retcon ?
23:17 asciilifeform why would anyone build on their alt-world tho
23:17 asciilifeform when baking tx
23:17 mircea_popescu this question means the scheme's dead.
23:17 asciilifeform i dungetit
23:18 mircea_popescu by the time you ask "why would anyone choose the wrong color bits" you've moved from protocol to promise.
23:18 asciilifeform i still dungetit
23:18 mircea_popescu well, which part ?
23:18 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1753928 << bless you.
23:18 a111 Logged on 2017-12-19 02:51 phf: first pass line reduction of diffutils, from 300407 to 50312
23:20 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1753946 << good god.
23:20 a111 Logged on 2017-12-19 03:37 phf: trick question, why do you need a signal handler in a differ?
23:20 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: your picture seems to be a variant of the 'isolated node' argument. except nao with the sides reversed
23:20 mircea_popescu asciilifeform somethinglike that.
23:20 mircea_popescu the problem with "no time", see ? it's that now... no time!
23:21 mircea_popescu that's the iffy thing about blocks. not so much the "work", but the metronome.
23:21 asciilifeform so i'ma borrow mircea_popescu's orig argument, 'dont ever be isolatednode'
23:21 asciilifeform then no crowbar.
23:21 mircea_popescu this alt-granpa pistol is no replacement for the actual item
23:21 mircea_popescu i don't want a different flavour of footshooting musket.
23:22 asciilifeform it couldn't, even if entirely flawless, it dun distribute coin
23:22 asciilifeform q is more re fundamentals. suppose you had another, yet-unspecified means to distributecoin.
23:23 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1753954 << i have up to date nodes ; both trb and legacy. but the phenomena described is recurrent since at least 18 months ago.
23:23 a111 Logged on 2017-12-19 04:09 trinque: obviously I'm looking into it, but I would like to hear what other people are seeing on their trb nodes.
23:23 * asciilifeform trying very different tack re 'trbi' than in prev thread, instead of massive warcrime , series of small gedankenexperiment.
23:24 mircea_popescu asciilifeform in which vein : nothing wrong in principle with the idea (of all-coins-given-at-t0) but you will have to solve the problem of time.
23:24 asciilifeform trinque: 'zoolag' still 30k behind
23:25 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 'don't be in a cave' is not solution ?
23:25 mircea_popescu to the problem of time ?
23:25 asciilifeform aha
23:25 mircea_popescu no it's not a solution. it reduces to "bring your own missing parts of this bitcoin"
23:25 trinque I'm simply unable to transmit transactions at times; they show up in no other mempool.
23:26 trinque this along with the transparently obvious sybil logs I posted the other day
23:26 trinque anyhow, investigation continues.
23:26 mircea_popescu trinque the only known pill is keeping large pile of secretly connected nodes, measuring who mothballs you and why, sending assassins over,
23:26 mircea_popescu it's a whole game of dumbass.
23:26 mircea_popescu the sad fact of bitcoin relay network is that it actually forces people who aren't to nevertheless act like idiots.
23:27 mircea_popescu "because someone somewhere might"
23:27 mircea_popescu this sad is dissected in logs last someone mentioned this. which might've been me, last year ish
23:27 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it isn't cleat to me that wot isn't the troo solution to time. e.g. 'i'ma follow the multiverse mircea_popescu picks, and fuck everyone'
23:27 asciilifeform *clear to
23:27 mircea_popescu asciilifeform possibly.
23:27 trinque yep, my reaction has been to invest in node-deployment tooling, more nodes, idiot IP blocking and all that
23:27 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-19#1753928 << 24132
↖
23:27 a111 Logged on 2017-12-19 02:51 phf: first pass line reduction of diffutils, from 300407 to 50312
23:28 trinque wd
23:28 mircea_popescu asciilifeform but this just makes us a larger mp, you understand ? girl going "hail master, i am yours to command" does not resolve the problem.
23:28 asciilifeform there may not ultimately be another solution.
23:28 asciilifeform chinese liquishit is no future.
23:29 mircea_popescu maybe not.
23:29 asciilifeform at least i formalized how.
23:29 asciilifeform ( possibly it was already obvious, how. )
23:29 mircea_popescu anyway, one approach might be to a) create a scalar worldfunction and b) force reference to the discrete value of it. which is what pow ineptly tries to do.
23:30 mircea_popescu but i suspect as implemented it is blind peculiarization of more general concept that needs unearthing.
23:30 asciilifeform i gave an example scalar, 'coins moved but over 1 block delta'. it is by no means the only possible.
23:31 mircea_popescu (in the discussion re http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/ the item involved is a more elaborate... world function.)
23:31 asciilifeform notice that item in this thread makes no reference to how-hashed or other technominutiae .
23:31 mircea_popescu asciilifeform coins moved is a phenomenology function. worldfunction must discuss states.
23:31 mircea_popescu indeed. no reason to.
23:32 asciilifeform i can rven
23:32 asciilifeform errr
23:32 asciilifeform grr
23:32 asciilifeform even picture various worldfuncts coexisting. genuine multiversecoin.
23:33 asciilifeform the ants, their own, cockroaches, their own, men -- their own.
23:34 mircea_popescu hm ?
23:34 mircea_popescu sure.
23:34 asciilifeform and yes mircea_popescu this item is an attempt at the unified theory, rather than proposal for concrete cointron.
23:34 asciilifeform very rough attempt.
23:34 mircea_popescu this is entirely new field, in fact, as http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-18#1753861 etc : we don't even really understand what worldfunction si supposed to be.
23:34 a111 Logged on 2017-12-18 23:33 asciilifeform: after 5yr of thinking about it daily, asciilifeform still has nfi what even ought to be asked of a pow !!
23:35 mircea_popescu but it'd seem that in point of fact what is needed is a reliable description of all factual existence.
23:35 mircea_popescu doesn't have to be complete being the only grace.
23:35 asciilifeform pow where having found the prev champ is of ~any~ advantage, is ipso facto retarded tho.
23:35 asciilifeform as mircea_popescu already observed.
23:36 mircea_popescu maybe "any" is too strong. but if one can take decision based on it, there's the evident problem
23:37 asciilifeform and currently i'm of the mind that pow is an idiot substitute for wot.
23:37 mircea_popescu well... call it a bootstrap
23:37 mircea_popescu in all factuality we wouldn't have wot were there not pow.
23:37 asciilifeform i duncare what obummer and gavin have to say re the worldstate,
23:37 asciilifeform perfectly happy to replace pow with my wot.
23:37 mircea_popescu asciilifeform up to a point. if they came up with say riemann falsification , you'd care.
23:38 asciilifeform they haven't tho.
23:38 asciilifeform and won't.
23:38 mircea_popescu nor wioll.
23:38 mircea_popescu right.
23:44 mircea_popescu anyway. "discretized worldfunction", which is ~what pow+blockchain is, has obvious advantages.
23:44 asciilifeform and disadvantages.
23:44 mircea_popescu i don't mean here what rando-idiot thinks those are. i mean the actual article,
23:45 mircea_popescu i clearly remember gushing in the log many years ago, but can't seem to find. anyway : difficulty worked.
23:46 asciilifeform the asic-building tourney is intrinsically cartelizing.
23:46 mircea_popescu it scaled remarkably well, much better than expected really ; and much better than expectable. this exceedingly close coupling between model and reality isn't, to my knowledge, seen before in human industry.
23:46 asciilifeform scaled all the way into becoming a chinese national property.
23:47 mircea_popescu nevermind that.
23:48 mircea_popescu the fact that blocktimes today are SO DAMNED CLOSE to the range intended 8 years ago in spite of diff going up 1e20 is unmatched.
23:48 mircea_popescu not even seen in nature, such things.
23:48 asciilifeform how could they move ? it's a pretty hard thermostat
23:48 mircea_popescu the point is that it worked.
23:48 asciilifeform it was obvious that it'd work, in this sense, on day1
23:49 mircea_popescu you do not encounter a phenomena where you go from 1 to 1e20 smoothly.
23:49 mircea_popescu it was not obvious to me.
23:55 asciilifeform i can picture that it'd impress folx who experienced 'typical' technology being webolade, ducttape, perl. the way austrian bidet impressed asciilifeform's grandfather.
23:56 asciilifeform an sram, sah,
23:56 asciilifeform say,
23:56 asciilifeform by that token evenmoaf
23:56 mircea_popescu name item, man-made or natural, that presents this property.
23:56 asciilifeform rmoar impressive
23:56 asciilifeform your cpu.
23:56 mircea_popescu what about my cpu ?
23:56 asciilifeform worx same from 1hz to 1e9.
23:57 mircea_popescu cpu transistor count is what, 1e10 ?
23:57 mircea_popescu that is NOWHERE CLOSE.
23:58 mircea_popescu and if you're proposing 2017 vintage intel cpu works anything like a diode you're in for a world of hurt.
23:59 asciilifeform dunno re intel's turd, but plenty of static (i.e. clocks from dc to max) on embedded market.
23:59 asciilifeform the cpld in fg, for instance.
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