Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-12-13 | 2017-12-15 → ↓
00:08 ben_vulpes canvassing the low bandwidth radio space
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00:14 ben_vulpes concretely, trying to figure out what it would take to prototype a tuneable phase locked loop channel
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~ 6 hours 5 minutes ~
06:19 diana_coman asciilifeform, would you please elaborate on http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-07#1748150 ? apparently it's still not straightforward enough for me in practice
06:19 a111 Logged on 2017-12-07 16:51 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you can: diff ~the patch~
~ 1 hours 39 minutes ~
07:59 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all
07:59 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 16651.45, vol: 14908.84943855 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 16600.0, vol: 59781.18472423 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 16550.0, vol: 3279.47747035 | Volume-weighted last average: 16607.7349007
08:03 shinohai Is this UBI thing a meme now? http://archive.is/q3fXn
~ 45 minutes ~
08:48 BingoBoingo No, memes are funny
08:49 BingoBoingo And they stick
08:49 BingoBoingo It's an unfunny forced meme
08:49 shinohai But the concept of a UBI is hilarious period.
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08:52 BingoBoingo But it would piss of walmart customers: "Whaddya mean the help is taking home more money because they work AND get muh welfares!
~ 1 hours ~
09:52 asciilifeform !~later tell diana_coman plox to describe, very very specifically, what you need done. then i'll show how.
09:52 jhvh1 asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
09:58 diana_coman asciilifeform, I need to create a vpatch that performs the change of dir structure from a/mpi to b/eucrypt/mpi where the contents of the mpi folder in both cases are identical; or more specifically for the task at hand: I want to create a vpatch that has as antecedent my previous sane_mpi_eucrypt.vpatch (whose output is an mpi folder with all sorts) and results in eucrypt/mpi where this new mpi folder has precisely same contents
10:01 diana_coman fwiw I managed to do this to some extent, but I don't like this "to some extent"
10:14 asciilifeform diana_coman: i gotta ask , what did this 'to some extent' look like.
10:17 diana_coman asciilifeform, it does the move BUT it requires post-cleaning (i.e. leaves some stuff behind) + works only with mod6's v; so something is wrong somewhere and hopefully it's just on my side i.e. I can correct it quickly following your explanation of how it should be done
10:17 asciilifeform let's see it
10:18 diana_coman mind telling me how you see it done? it's hopefully faster than debugging a wrong approach; once I have it working I'll write up the failure too if that's the thing
10:19 asciilifeform i'm making an example, brb
10:19 diana_coman k, thanks
~ 17 minutes ~
10:36 phf diana_coman: it's not going to be pretty. it'll be twice the amount of text: once to delete the old file with - - - - and once to create a new file with + + + +
10:37 asciilifeform phf: this is the basic insanity of gnupatch. a proper vpatch ought to see that the hashes are the same incoming and outgoing , and Do The Right Thing without the idiot spew
10:37 asciilifeform *vpatcher
10:38 asciilifeform the 1 thing i still don't fully understand is why diana_coman's subdir gotta move
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10:38 asciilifeform it isn't required for the linker, nor for maintaining v-lineage ( the latter works just as well if diana_coman were to simply add a comment to 1 or more items in mpi dir , that 'this is nao part of eucrypt' )
10:39 asciilifeform i.e. why can't 'eucrypt' be a ~sibling~ dir to 'mpi'
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10:39 asciilifeform then you dun need any gnupatch shenanigans.
10:40 asciilifeform i'ma demonstrate, brb
10:40 phf presumably she doesn't want to compromise the resultant press because of poor tooling
10:41 asciilifeform waiwat
10:43 phf well, the project is called eucrypt, presses into eucrypt directory, inside it has support infrastructure like mpi
10:44 phf if she decides to replace bignum backing, presumably mpi will get nuked and replaced with something else
10:44 asciilifeform 1s, almost done with example
10:47 asciilifeform http://www.loper-os.org/pub/mpi/pseudo_eucrypt.vpatch << demo
10:48 asciilifeform it's not eucrypt, of course, but the helloworld i originally included in mpi . but shows what i meant above.
10:49 asciilifeform you can press it in my vtron, by 1) recreating diana_coman's working set from last week 2) drop pseudo_eucrypt.vpatch into patches dir 3) ./v.py -wild --wot .wot --seals .seals patches p patches/pseudo_eucrypt.vpatch pseudoeucrypt
10:49 BingoBoingo !~bcstats
10:49 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: None | Current Difficulty: 1.590896927258E12 | Next Difficulty At Block: 499967 | Next Difficulty In: None blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 3 days, 17 hours, 55 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
10:49 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: do you mind?
10:49 BingoBoingo sorry
10:51 asciilifeform phf: given example works with my vtron, oughta equally work with mod6's. and does the job (both from vtronic genealogy pov, and gnumake's -- the latter (see the makefile of my faux 'eucrypt') recurses updir ) the 1 down-side is aesthetics.
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10:53 asciilifeform now let's come back to my much earlier pill, which i suggested in the mircea_popescu thread. which is imho even uglier. in that one, diana_coman would have to introduce the three mpi-ism vpatches comprising her working set, as ~files~ into eucrypt. and a sed script, and a vtron invocation, into her eucrypt makefile.
10:54 asciilifeform if phf , or anyone else, can think of a 3rd ( that is, one that actually preserves the v-genealogy , rather than idiot-cut-and-pastism ) i'm all ears.
10:55 mod6 your example will not work with my vtron, for one simple reason: the new rules state that we do not do ANYTHING with vpatches that do not have a corresponding signature - we IGNORE WILD vpatches and drop them on the floor.
10:55 asciilifeform imho the item i posted just nao, illustrates the cleaner method. but it has down-side in that one has to give up on 'i get to decide exactly what the unix dir structure will look like, notwithstanding the fact that gnumake was dropped as a baby and has nfi what file moving is'
10:55 asciilifeform mod6: if you dun have a testmode, you gotta sign it yerself to run it, what can i say
10:55 mod6 That is fine; if it has a valid corresponding signature.
10:56 asciilifeform mod6: i dun like to uncase the launch codes 10,000,000 times per day every time test press. but others are moar than welcome to.
10:56 mod6 I understand that sentiment. We discussed this at length. Which is why I actually have a test-vpatch pgp key for that purpose only.
10:57 asciilifeform or can sign it with the mahmood khadir key, or 1 of the others we broke, lol
10:57 mod6 haha, fair enough
10:57 asciilifeform at any rate it oughta be obvious what the illustration does simply from naked eye reading.
10:58 asciilifeform you dun actually need to press it, unless specifically want to.
10:58 mod6 sure, thanks for posting the sample for diana_coman
10:58 asciilifeform now here's a 3rd pill :
10:59 asciilifeform eh nm no 3rd. can't think of one.
10:59 phf i didn't necessarily need the illustration, because i understood what you were saying, my point was merely that it's sad state of things
10:59 asciilifeform i'ma leave it for diana_coman , mod6 , phf , mircea_popescu , et al, to consider which pill is less barfatronic, and possibly conceive of another.
11:00 asciilifeform phf: sad indeed, and afaik unfixable without sending gnupatch/gnudiff to where they belong -- into the oven.
11:02 asciilifeform though i'll admit that i personally dun get the fixation with moving mpi to being a subdir of $newproj.
11:02 asciilifeform the vdiffing worx exactly correctly, as does the linkage, without this.
11:03 asciilifeform ( both demonstrated in the example. )
11:13 phf well, the nature of v is that you're pressing into a global namespace. in fact that was a property of the original idea to a great extent (hence mp and his insistence on there being only one genesis). we compromised that already by having multiple projects, but you still run into the same issue when you're trying to combine multiple projects together. you're basically saying that the press namespace doesn't matter as long as there's no collision. ~othe
11:13 phf rs~ might a little bit more meaning out of the press namespace. one pill to satisfy later group of people would be to come up with a filesystem hierarchy standard, i.e. you always press at the same root, but you're pressing into a tmsr namespace. so it'll be /bin/bitcoin/... /lib/mpi/...
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11:13 asciilifeform i happen to see the entire unix directory scheme as idiocy
11:14 phf sure, but you can't avoid namespacing issue. you're pressing files by name.
11:14 asciilifeform but, observe, phf's scheme could easily work, and require afaik no regrinds
11:14 asciilifeform take for instance trb , as seen in http://btcbase.org/patches/genesis/file
11:15 asciilifeform dir is 'bitcoin'
11:15 asciilifeform take mpi . dir is 'mpi'.
11:15 asciilifeform iirc all of the v-releases, to date, are already dir-siblings in phf's hypothetical tmsr-rootdir.
11:16 phf nah
11:16 phf actually, i think fg is the only exception
11:17 phf but yeah in that model your press is / and you have /mpi and /eucrypt, so if you want to link against /mpi you do ../mpi/... in your makefile
11:18 asciilifeform aha, as shown
11:18 phf no what's shown is eucrypt ~inside~ mpi
11:18 asciilifeform and yes fg genesis apparently lacks subdirization.
11:19 asciilifeform phf: how inside ? they're sibling dirs
11:19 phf ah yeah you're right
11:19 phf well, then we're on the same page
11:19 asciilifeform aha.
11:20 asciilifeform i like phf's unification idea. even if it means that at some point i gotta regrind fg-genesis.
11:20 asciilifeform common dir root for errything.
11:22 asciilifeform it very much seems to me, to be The Right Thing.
11:23 asciilifeform also oughta satisfy mircea_popescu's 'there was 1 genesis' item. because under phf's unification, there in fact ~was~ , created an empty universe with a 'bitcoin' dir.
11:26 asciilifeform this also makes the vtronic-linux a moar tenable, imho, proposition.
11:27 asciilifeform picture, all v-released items live in /v/ ; seals in /seals/; wot in '/wot/; /v/ gets pressed on install, and on request whenever later...
11:28 asciilifeform common root lets you vdiffate whatever change you made to anything, even if it takes in > 1 subsystem.
11:28 asciilifeform all binaries on the box must trace their descent to contents of /v/...
11:30 phf right
11:31 phf it is to some extent a bsd model (that slackless os also follows it), where you have baseline system, where the source is owned by a cabal of maintainers/developers
11:32 asciilifeform suckless ?
11:32 phf err, yes, i was going to say slackware, but they are sloppier than bsd
11:36 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-14#1751421 << ben_vulpes wtf is 'low bandwidth radio space' ??! how does this differ from 'low thickness physical space' ? how do i parse yer sentence ?
11:36 a111 Logged on 2017-12-14 05:08 ben_vulpes: canvassing the low bandwidth radio space
11:36 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-14#1751422 << where does one find a ~non~-tunable pll , ben_vulpes ?
11:36 a111 Logged on 2017-12-14 05:14 ben_vulpes: concretely, trying to figure out what it would take to prototype a tuneable phase locked loop channel
11:36 asciilifeform what's even is it.
11:38 asciilifeform possibly i can guess what ben_vulpes wanted... answr is, there is 0 ionospheric propagation at any of the spectrum the cheapo rtl dongle is able to pick up.
11:38 asciilifeform it's good for what comes from before your horizon, and that's it.
11:38 ben_vulpes too parsimonious!
11:39 asciilifeform it also doesn't transmit. if you wanna transmit, you need an actual sdr, e.g. 'hackrf' , 'gnuradio', or something made with own hands.
11:39 ben_vulpes hardware for broadcasting and receiving data over low bandwidth radio links
11:39 asciilifeform rtldongle dun transmit.
11:39 ben_vulpes yeah, this i know.
11:39 ben_vulpes vga card doesn't receive, right?
11:39 asciilifeform vga card + pirate hf amp -- transmit.
11:40 ben_vulpes aha.
11:40 asciilifeform ( connection left as exercise for the reader. )
11:40 asciilifeform rtl dun receive ~anything at <=30Mhz .
11:40 asciilifeform ( and the supposed converter boxes, dun work worth a shit. ) but iirc i already mentioned this.
11:40 ben_vulpes yup
11:41 * ben_vulpes bbl, teaching human 101, will return later
11:41 asciilifeform try 'hackrf' or 1 of the other inexpensive 0-2Ghz or whatever, 'swiss army knives'
11:42 * asciilifeform also bbl
11:52 mircea_popescu o hai
11:55 mod6 mornin'
~ 1 hours 26 minutes ~
13:21 ben_vulpes apparently mike_c's new gig has now banned messages to girls from users they haven't "liked" yet
13:21 ben_vulpes they show up on the sender's "profile" instead
13:22 ben_vulpes so it's a shitty bumble now.
13:22 ben_vulpes which is kind of impressive because bumble was already a shitty tinder, providing a cover for short-term coy behavior in online dating.
13:31 BingoBoingo ben_vulpes: Well, maybe it's part of mircea_popescu's vast conspiracy to push people into more crowded spaces?
13:32 ben_vulpes mike_c, the republic's mole in IAC
13:32 ben_vulpes buenos dias, BingoBoingo
13:33 BingoBoingo ben_vulpes: Aqui es "Buen dia" en la manana. Otra veces "Buenas" (tardes o noche not specified)
13:33 ben_vulpes buen dia!
13:34 * BingoBoingo first 3 days heard it as "Bom dia" though they adopted portuguese greeting from Brasil.
13:36 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-14#1751431 << nah. there's a straight relationship between humour and hope : anything thats hopeable is not humorous and vice-versa.
13:36 a111 Logged on 2017-12-14 13:49 shinohai: But the concept of a UBI is hilarious period.
13:36 mircea_popescu (humor necessarily feeds of contradiction of expectations ; hope is always and no matter how disguised continuation of expectation. the contradiction between the two is absolute and a matter of definition.)
13:37 mircea_popescu that's also why poor people, stupid people (but i repeat myself) and socialists, "democrats", pantsuits etc are so fucking unfunny. too hope-y, or rather, their intellects are too dysfunctional to handle contradiction, of whatever kind.
13:38 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-14#1751446 << VERY late in the game to "not understand" this.
13:38 a111 Logged on 2017-12-14 15:38 asciilifeform: the 1 thing i still don't fully understand is why diana_coman's subdir gotta move
13:39 mircea_popescu the correct time to not understand it was LAST fuycking week, when http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-07#1748152
13:39 a111 Logged on 2017-12-07 16:52 mircea_popescu: so then why can't she simply move the mpi/ dir into eucrypt/mpi/ and proceed ?
13:39 ben_vulpes always entertaining to watch "just wanted"s rack their nuts on the handrail of reality
13:39 mircea_popescu there is that.
13:39 * BingoBoingo will have to add that to hosting menu. How many nuts per RU?
13:40 asciilifeform 4!1
13:40 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-14#1751448 << because it's not a fucking sibling to fucking mpi
13:40 a111 Logged on 2017-12-14 15:39 asciilifeform: i.e. why can't 'eucrypt' be a ~sibling~ dir to 'mpi'
13:40 ben_vulpes none, cab should be threaded :D
13:40 mircea_popescu mpi is a SUB. and if it can't act the sub part it's getting cut out with hot irons and the ground where it stood salted.
13:40 mircea_popescu exactly like ANY OTHER piece of fucking useless heathenry
13:45 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-14#1751463 << it does exactly one fucking job. this one : diana_coman please don't talk to asciilifeform or take any further advice from him. total timewaste.
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13:45 a111 Logged on 2017-12-14 15:51 asciilifeform: phf: given example works with my vtron, oughta equally work with mod6's. and does the job (both from vtronic genealogy pov, and gnumake's -- the latter (see the makefile of my faux 'eucrypt') recurses updir ) the 1 down-side is aesthetics.
13:48 * asciilifeform dun have an answer, other than http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-05#1746586 .
13:48 a111 Logged on 2017-12-05 15:11 asciilifeform: and in general i dun expect any of it to be paid for, there is no tradition of any such thing. but i do have the possibly naive expectation of the work not to be shat on.
13:48 mircea_popescu this isn't work, what you're doing. this is anti-work.
13:49 mircea_popescu and it's not the first time ; it's the fucking third. every time she tried to get some sort of support from you, you acted the retarded usarmy desk flier, cost her 10x the time it'd have taken if she were camping in the desert.
13:49 mircea_popescu this is me opting out. now go read thefucking logs ; copy BY HAND on a notebook what you did wrong, in fucking gothic longhand, a dozen times, and get it in your thick skull.
13:50 mircea_popescu the world's not some sort of wide open grazing range where we can just randomly produce useless nonsense.
13:54 asciilifeform not as if asciilifeform hypnotized diana_coman into repeatedly requestion (unpaid!) support for her (commercial) proj from him.
13:54 asciilifeform *requesting
13:54 mircea_popescu so now that problem is solved ; go do something else, there shall be no more of this.
13:55 * asciilifeform returns to somethingelse
14:08 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all --currency gbp
14:09 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Kraken BTCGBP last: 8031.0, vol: 0.03649989 | Volume-weighted last average: 8031.0
14:09 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all
14:10 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 16349.16, vol: 13907.27801175 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 16382.0, vol: 51961.20651967 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 13350.0, vol: 0 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 16395.0, vol: 3078.69426607 | Volume-weighted last average: 16375.9563592
14:11 BingoBoingo Incredilag
14:15 mircea_popescu lag is always credible.
14:18 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-14#1751486 << i considered this. it's not evidently broken, but i think it subtly is broken, and the principal cause of the failure of the unix actually -- a failure to correctly handle namespaces.
14:18 a111 Logged on 2017-12-14 16:13 phf: rs~ might a little bit more meaning out of the press namespace. one pill to satisfy later group of people would be to come up with a filesystem hierarchy standard, i.e. you always press at the same root, but you're pressing into a tmsr namespace. so it'll be /bin/bitcoin/... /lib/mpi/...
14:19 mircea_popescu yes we don't have a gns yet, but this doesn't excuse us from... doing the same computations by hand as if we had it! it's not suddenly allowable to go "well since i have no running water i therefore do not wash". no bitch -- since you have no running water, you walk fifty miles uphil each way to GET water in a bucket. still wash.
14:19 asciilifeform that'd mean tmsr-diff
14:22 mircea_popescu that could've meant tmsr-diff. what it means practically is that there's going to be a "new" mpi in eucrypt, textually identical to the genesis one ; and people will be re-reading and re-reading and RE-READING whole lots of the same exact code as if new, resulting in a situation where instead of the problem being pushed into "a filesystem hierarchy standard" it'll be pushed into a "code standard". which happens to be exactly
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14:22 mircea_popescu like how oral culture worked, the concept of a trope, as found in folk tales, is really simply equivalent to "and this is how mpi goes, and this is how bubblesort goes..." and so on.
14:23 mircea_popescu over time it'll actually get systematized, as in the aaerne-thompson system for folk takes, or as in the tmsr-diff here. but that day is far into teh future.
14:27 asciilifeform if mircea_popescu decides to have the eulora programmers not only copy the thing verbatim, as if v never existed, but to retype it, and whack'em with a stick for each mistyped letter, who am i to object . it's his proggy.
14:28 mircea_popescu contrary to naive intuition, there is no damage in re-reading old code as if it were new.
14:28 asciilifeform fwiw i do it ~all day, ~every day.
14:28 mircea_popescu in fact, i expect it will be the MAJORITY of work for humans in the future.
14:28 asciilifeform it's what i do for a living.
14:29 asciilifeform mechanical tools can make the job slightly smaller, or - when they're rubbish - slightly larger. but it remains.
14:34 asciilifeform incidentally if mircea_popescu wanted to go 'whole hog' re http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-14#1751589 , could even throw out asciilifeform's mpi and make new one from the source material. see if it ends up same, possibly find new cuts.
14:34 a111 Logged on 2017-12-14 19:22 mircea_popescu: that could've meant tmsr-diff. what it means practically is that there's going to be a "new" mpi in eucrypt, textually identical to the genesis one ; and people will be re-reading and re-reading and RE-READING whole lots of the same exact code as if new, resulting in a situation where instead of the problem being pushed into "a filesystem hierarchy standard" it'll be pushed into a "code standard". which happens to be exactly
14:34 * asciilifeform promises not to cry , is old enuff
14:34 mircea_popescu that's ok, minigame delayed enough as it is.
14:42 mircea_popescu phf are you amenable to re-writing diff btw ? http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-06#1747792 is going to happen later this year, and v-immutability is a pita.
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14:42 a111 Logged on 2017-12-06 22:51 mircea_popescu: once we have keccak.
14:43 asciilifeform iirc ben_vulpes had a prototype .
14:45 ben_vulpes mnope did not
14:47 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: consider making a spec for the One Troo Diff ?
14:47 * asciilifeform promises to read
14:47 mircea_popescu kinda open matter yet ; but procedurally one takes the diff source code, genesises it, patches the differences and produces a drop-in diff replacement.
14:48 asciilifeform yea but mircea_popescu demanded sane namespace behaviour
14:54 mircea_popescu i'm letting him contribute, what. he understands what the problems are.
14:54 mircea_popescu maybe he bites the bullet and makes special files. or who the hell knows. i'm curious.
14:55 mircea_popescu you ~could have a diff format whereby first line is x y z with x = total line count, y notation line count z data line count, and then instead of +++ --- bs you just have line count references in the notation part.
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14:56 mircea_popescu can EVEN KEEP the +++ --- style separators, but in the DATA segment
14:56 mircea_popescu making your file comvertible to old style patch through a truncation op.
15:05 asciilifeform ( pertinent old threads -- http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595812 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-05#1596689 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-05#1596584 ; and elsewhere )
15:05 a111 Logged on 2017-01-03 21:14 mircea_popescu: v is really only as powerful as the underlying differ is.
15:05 a111 Logged on 2017-01-05 00:49 mircea_popescu: i do not wish to live in a world where people can make patches consisting of 512kb lines of a
15:05 a111 Logged on 2017-01-05 00:24 mircea_popescu: lines are good!
15:10 mircea_popescu !!up nocko
15:10 deedbot nocko voiced for 30 minutes.
15:10 mircea_popescu you new here ?
15:11 asciilifeform possibly http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-10#1749289
15:11 a111 Logged on 2017-12-10 21:23 nocko: I was linked to FFA guide, started looking around and am now here. I cannot say that I yet have half an idea what's going on... but hello.
15:11 mircea_popescu ah
15:11 asciilifeform !!key nocko
15:11 deedbot Not registered.
15:11 asciilifeform maybeshakespeare, maybeanothermanbysamename
15:12 * asciilifeform bbl, meat maneuvers.
15:18 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-14#1751602 << i have some ideas of the first steps, that is i can make backwards compatible vpatched diff/patch
15:18 a111 Logged on 2017-12-14 19:42 mircea_popescu: phf are you amenable to re-writing diff btw ? http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-06#1747792 is going to happen later this year, and v-immutability is a pita.
15:18 mircea_popescu how ?
15:20 phf take existing stuff, strip it down to just what we already have -ruN functionality. i think that the actual tools should be vdiff and vpatch, that is they do shasuming themselves and produce proper vpatches/apply proper vpatches, but without chain or signature validation.
15:21 mircea_popescu why without ?
15:22 phf well, signature validation is done by gnupg, i don't see any reason to bring that whole thing in, and there's very little reason to system("gnupg ...")
15:23 mircea_popescu mpi ?
15:23 phf chain validation needs to only go as far as "does the hash on the file that i'm about to patch corresponds to what i expect"
15:23 mircea_popescu the whole idea is to eg import keccak from eucrypt
15:23 mircea_popescu and why would diff/patch be outside of vtroner is the larger design question
15:24 phf mpi is a fraction of what gnupg is, are we then moving away from pgp keys and signatures?
15:24 mircea_popescu idea is to use tmsr-rsa anyway
15:26 phf hmm
15:26 phf this then is entirely unscoped
15:26 mircea_popescu it is. open discussion.
15:27 mircea_popescu in principle we could do incremental builds ; but only if they can be cleanly upgraded later, that's a major point.
15:28 phf in my thinking vtroner is a larger beast, that's responsible for the management of the entire press chain. patch/diff are dealing with a specific problem of comparing two states, producing a difference of those two tays, and then taking a state into a next state according to differences
15:29 mircea_popescu so basically keep them modular ?
15:29 mircea_popescu can you imagine any other context besides pressing this new diff/patch would be used in ?
15:29 phf from that perspective both vdiff and vpatch ~could~ also produce a corresponding sig, in which case the protocol is that patch/diff produce an always valid vpatch (i.e. vpatch/sig combination)
15:30 mircea_popescu how can they sig for you
15:30 phf i thought that's what you were talking about?
15:30 mircea_popescu no ?
15:30 mircea_popescu ~check~ signatures.
15:30 phf or the thinking that vdiff doesn't sig, but then vpatch expects a sig never the less?
15:30 mircea_popescu not produce them
15:31 mircea_popescu and yes.
15:31 mircea_popescu sign in your sign room, mofo.
15:34 phf i don't think that's a good idea, but i can't articulate an objection. vpatch now needs to know about your wot and wot management, or else the process of patching now becomes explicitly providing a pub key, a corresponding sig and a vpatch itself.
15:34 mircea_popescu it doesn't have to be decided now.
15:35 mircea_popescu isn't the latter actually ideal, protocol wise ?
15:37 phf well, this goes back to the threads about whether or not it makes sense to patch sigs on your workbench. i use patch in my workflow frequently outside of pressing a tree to bring things from one state into another. i might have a dozen of unsigned patches, that i'm working with that won't see the light of day
15:38 phf in this case the value of proper vpatch/vdiff is that they never produce fuzzy patches and always validate the shasum for you, but they don't do the v-tronic management
15:39 mircea_popescu aaaa
15:39 mircea_popescu you're absolutely right. patch process must be much looser than this.
15:41 phf actually phf-shiva-swank is still broken in the experimental patchset, because it was produced by vdiff/patch combination (vdiff made some claims of shasums, which patch didn't verify. the fact that i should've verified the press is a different question)
15:44 mircea_popescu hm.
15:45 phf btw one of the reasons for dodgy delete function in the diff is that patches theoretically a reversible, -'ing all the lines of file can conversely be +'d back
15:49 phf but anyway, i'm not convinced that file management is a proper concern for diff. we could add it to a diff format, by placing some instructions in the prelude (which is normally ignored by unix patchers). rm src/foo.c, mv src/foo.c src/bar.c which can be used as instructions for reader with non compliant patchers, or parsed by the vpatcher to be executed. this is all incredibly inband, but conforms to the medium
15:50 mircea_popescu the fact that unix diff is directory blind is an idiocy larger than commonly encountered in that thing's misdesign
15:50 mircea_popescu a file is not "its contents and AN ARBITRARY TRUNCATION OF ITS NAME"
15:51 mircea_popescu and a file's fucking name is its absolute path, not the last bit thereof.
15:52 mircea_popescu but whatever, in 1970 people couldn't afford disks with actual directory structure in them
15:55 phf diff/patch allows for absolute paths, we don't them it though
15:55 mircea_popescu i don't know how it allows if i can't move a god damned file.
15:56 phf well, moving of the file is a filesystem operation, what does it have to do with ~diffing~?
15:56 mircea_popescu that the name of the file is the file.
15:56 mircea_popescu the FILE has changed.
15:57 phf sure, but diff's way of indicating change is to show what happened to a file, that is all the lines of the file got deleted
15:57 mircea_popescu if i edit glib.c and replace line 50 with "fuck you stallman", and then try to compile glib.c, i get an error. if i edit glib.c and MOVE glib.c to /fuck/you/stallman/glib.c, and try to compile glib.c, i get an error
15:58 mircea_popescu ergo, BOTH these operations have been edits of the file.
15:58 mircea_popescu phf and in that diff is designed by turkeys.
15:59 phf diff has two things that it can signal: an addition of a line, and a deletion of a line, which is in line with what it claims to diff, i.e. diffing of lines
15:59 phf *claims to do
15:59 trinque problem stemming from that unix uses file path as a matter of identity, and allows this to be mutable (!)
↖
15:59 trinque can't be both
15:59 mircea_popescu ^
16:00 mircea_popescu trinque's statement is perfectly acceptable.
16:00 phf but then the question is what is the responsibility of diff
16:01 mircea_popescu phf sure, and subsistence hunting has two things that it can do, throw rock or jab spear. this is in line with it being an occupation of idiots invented by idiotws.
16:01 phf fwiw diff can't even know that a file has been moved
16:01 mircea_popescu but it can know that it's not in the same directory.
16:01 phf no, it can't
16:01 mircea_popescu "the difference between a/fuckyoustallman.c and b/fuckyoustallman.c is 1) that one's in a and the other in b ; 2) no further"
16:02 mircea_popescu why can't it ?
16:02 phf if you do mkdir a; touch foo; touch a/foo; mv foo a/foo;
16:03 phf there's no way of knowing without having a complete history of states whether or not foo was moved or removed
16:03 mircea_popescu but you can know that one foo is in a and the other not
16:03 mircea_popescu diff compares two items, not an item to itself
16:04 mircea_popescu when i say diff a/foo b/foo, diff fails to output "one is in a, the other in b" as the first fucking item on its list of differences. this is because the (idiots) that made diff thought they gain something by eliding "the trivial case".
16:04 mircea_popescu this turns out to not have been so
16:04 mircea_popescu "of course the user knows they're not in the same dir duh" is no design logic.
16:04 phf wut
16:05 phf it's precisely first item it outputs
16:05 mircea_popescu then WHY!!!! can't i use it to move files!!11
16:07 phf diff can't know if the newly appeared item that's identical to an item that exists elsewhere in previous state has been moved there from the elsewhere or created in situ
16:07 phf you can communicate that information through a patch format, but that's not something ~diff~ can guess about
16:08 mircea_popescu i dun get what the problem is.
16:08 mircea_popescu if you have a : a/b a/c and b : b/b b/d/c it is thereby evident upon diffing a and b that c was moved from a/ to b/d/ if a/c contents === b/d/c contents.
16:09 phf say you have /a/foo and you have /a/bar/foo where both foo are identical. you're running diff -ruN a b, what is the expected behavior?
16:09 mircea_popescu what's to guess ?
16:10 phf by your previous question you're saying that diff is supposed to say that foo was moved
16:10 mircea_popescu this'd require all file movements to be a separate patch, as you can't both move and edit in the same go. which imo is bonus the right thing
16:10 mircea_popescu phf yeah ?
16:11 phf what if you have /a/foo and /b/bar/foo, /b/qux/foo where all foo are identical?
16:11 mircea_popescu then the first one was moved and the other created.
16:12 mircea_popescu also, if it dies a flaming death in this case that'd be very acceptable, and fuck you for keeping duplicates like that.
16:12 phf so basically hash sums trump namespacing always
16:12 mircea_popescu it's why we have them
16:13 mircea_popescu "file's identity" as per trinque
16:13 phf in that case we should probably forbid hash identical files to be in different paths
16:14 mircea_popescu kinda what i said above
16:14 mircea_popescu we have long ago de facto forbidden hash-identical files ~from being~. anything, at all.
↖
16:14 phf (that was by the way how btcbase patcher worked for a long time, until i had to modify it because there are placeholder items in bitcoin source code that are at different filepaths)
16:14 mircea_popescu hence the keccak instead of curent whatever it is.
16:15 mircea_popescu phf because it's the logical way for it to work
16:16 mircea_popescu but this is why this discussion was so important : it has in fact emerged that the correct implementation of diff would first a) calculate hash of all files in each dir ; then b) process moves and only then c) do the diffing.
↖
16:18 phf not restricted to moves by the way, there's also copy. there's a certain symmetry lost though. if you say make a genesis with 3 empty files a b c, then they are fresh line patches. but the patch against that that creates another 3 empty files puts cp a x; cp a y; cp a z; in the prelude instead
16:19 mircea_popescu anywya, this system'd be purrfect : if hash unchanged, "this is THE SAME file by a different name (or path, same thing" ; if hash changed "this is DIFFERENT FILE by same name"
16:19 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-14#1751721 << ftr my orig v eggogs, 'cyclic graph!' if any new-hash is == to any old-hash
16:19 a111 Logged on 2017-12-14 21:14 mircea_popescu: we have long ago de facto forbidden hash-identical files ~from being~. anything, at all.
16:19 mircea_popescu phf no such thing as empty lines. put a fucking comment in there.
16:19 mircea_popescu empty files* i mean
16:20 phf mircea_popescu: well, empty file does have a shasum
16:20 mircea_popescu if you put empty files in your project i will personally chase you down in the afterlife.
16:20 phf but in this model you can have only one
16:21 mircea_popescu tbh i don't even understand why the machine permits such insanity. an empty file is very much a http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1738478 trigger
16:21 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 22:08 asciilifeform must invoke herr babbage, 'i cannot rightfully apprehend the confusion of ideas...'
16:22 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it's a cmachineism -- 'hey this register CAN haz a 0 in it, ergo lengths of 0 are permissible'. observe that i banished this idiocy from ffa planet
16:22 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-14#1751683
16:22 a111 Logged on 2017-12-14 20:59 trinque: problem stemming from that unix uses file path as a matter of identity, and allows this to be mutable (!)
16:22 asciilifeform ( where length of FZ 0 is ~not~ permitted, because wtf )
16:23 mircea_popescu we evidently also ~could~ add filename to the hash. but i dun wanna.
16:23 asciilifeform you could in phf's unified-namespace thing, but i dun see how else otherwise
16:23 mircea_popescu myeah.
16:27 phf (fwiw so far i've been using patches prelude to stuff metainformation there. one interesting property of patching an already pressed lisp system, is that you don't want a clean press. instead you want to find what state your system is, and then press it further down the chain. but because you don't want to restart the system likewise, you want some additional actions performed as you're moving down the press chain. so i've been using prelude as a place
16:27 phf to put lisp commands that need to be run after the source has been pressed to the current patche's state.)
16:27 shinohai "We're excited to announce that your Blockchain wallet is now offering full support for Bitcoin Cash! "
16:28 shinohai Why even bother with Bitcoin
16:29 asciilifeform phf: consider posting example ?
16:29 mircea_popescu phf interesting
16:30 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-14#1751725 << the retardation of unixdiff is unfortunately not limited to file moves. it also has no ability to represent , e.g., sections of a file moving ( iirc this came up during the original genesis thread )
16:30 a111 Logged on 2017-12-14 21:16 mircea_popescu: but this is why this discussion was so important : it has in fact emerged that the correct implementation of diff would first a) calculate hash of all files in each dir ; then b) process moves and only then c) do the diffing.
16:31 asciilifeform it's a pathetically dumb state machine.
16:32 asciilifeform the tragicomic part is that i picked plain old diff for vtronics 'so that patches will be readable'
16:33 asciilifeform ( and 'everyone already has it, and it works' etc )
16:34 asciilifeform whereas if you want to be able to compactly represent ~arbitrary transforms of text and of dirs, you end up with something like sed on top of a... text representation of a tar ?
↖
16:35 asciilifeform ( or even with http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-05#1596596 . )
16:35 a111 Logged on 2017-01-05 00:29 asciilifeform: so, one possible diff might be : \4\i'm \+15\quite certainly \80\not fucking learning an aminoacid matrix to be able to use diff i tell you that
16:39 asciilifeform incidentally mircea_popescu , phf , consider a particular cut : suppose that ( otherwise unchanged ) diff format did not mention paths at all, only hashes. and there is a separate section, 'manifest', that is table of hashes to paths. during press, the latter is eaten and traditional unix dir appears.
16:40 mircea_popescu too many knobs
16:40 asciilifeform it's 1 knob.
16:40 asciilifeform and does away with the horror chamber of 'i moved a file, where did the 10 MB of crud come from'
16:41 asciilifeform i dunno that the addition of a knob to divorce from the idiocy of unixpathism , is really escapable
16:41 asciilifeform it'll have to be solved , in some way, with at least 1 knob.
16:42 ben_vulpes if i recall correctly, the empty files are necessary to hold the output of trbs compilation process
16:42 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: only because unix diff , again , is retarded
16:42 asciilifeform and pretends that empty dirs don't matter, but somehow a dir that is empty BUT for 1 emptyfile -- is nonempty.
16:42 asciilifeform it's rubbish.
16:43 asciilifeform observe that in e.g. ffa , used nonempty placeholders.
16:44 asciilifeform ( trb-genesis, for better or worse, was a plain cut of the original material. ended up preserving the idiocy of empty file. )
16:48 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you don't specifically need a manifest, as per discussion (have you been reading the discussion ?) ; can just follow the hashes.
17:03 asciilifeform aha caught up
17:03 asciilifeform imho this is the troo cut
17:03 asciilifeform make paths non-special
17:03 asciilifeform and just text, and subject to diffing like any other text.
17:04 * asciilifeform bbl,meat
17:06 mod6 ben_vulpes: also, patch will not even create those output directories for the build process if the dir doesn't contain at least 1 file. it simply ignores them.
17:06 mircea_popescu ^
17:06 mod6 it's idiotic.
~ 28 minutes ~
17:35 mircea_popescu ;h]
17:35 mircea_popescu phf any word on specifically http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-14#1751612 ?
17:35 a111 Logged on 2017-12-14 19:55 mircea_popescu: you ~could have a diff format whereby first line is x y z with x = total line count, y notation line count z data line count, and then instead of +++ --- bs you just have line count references in the notation part.
17:37 phf i'm not sure this is necessary, patch already contains line count information in the @ ... @ part
17:38 phf +++ --- is there not for content parsing, but for allowing an arbitrary prelude (that is for including patches in email)
17:39 phf the reason why we have issues with +++ and --- is because vdiff specifically ignores the @ ... @ bits when postprocessing a patch. a complete vdiff-er wouldn't have to do that kind of post processing and can produce a valid patch always
17:41 mircea_popescu but this would remove the inband-ness
17:43 phf i'm not sure where inband-ness even comes from. patch format has a header of a format 'command used to produce this diff\nsource file\ndestination file\n@@ specific numbers of lines to follow @@\nlines"
17:44 phf so you're proposing to move @@ ... @@ to before "command used" part
17:44 mircea_popescu well, because specific headers used to adnotate (@, +, -) can also appear in the text adnotated
17:44 phf yes, and they won't make a difference!
17:44 mircea_popescu i am in a word proposing to put all the @@ type adnotations in the begining ; and all data at the end
17:44 mircea_popescu but i suppose you're right, a correct v-differ would just follow the extant protocol properly and not have the problem
17:45 mircea_popescu in other news, anyone wanna do a 20bux paypal for me ?
17:45 mircea_popescu danielpbarron ?
17:45 phf our inband problems stem purely from not utilizing @@ ... @@ information
17:46 danielpbarron mircea_popescu, sure
17:46 mircea_popescu 1sec
17:48 mircea_popescu in other crossposts, http://logs.minigame.bz/2017-12-14.log.html#t22:44:09
↖
17:48 lobbesbot Logged on 2017-12-14 22:44:09: <danielpbarron> this is a real testement to quality of S.NSA and its products
17:49 mircea_popescu phf so basically this is cropping down nicely after all. proper vpatch (fixing mod6 's bane, the empty dir thing) + proper vdiff (hash-based preprocessing of rename/move + proper use of @@...@@ + keccak hashing).
↖ ↖
17:49 mircea_popescu by the looks of it, sometime in january. that works ?
17:49 phf should be doable
17:50 mircea_popescu cool.
17:51 phf hmm, there's a bit of complexity there as far as producing files/directories shuffle, which might take longer, but i'll start with paring things down. i haven't yet seen diff/patch sources closely!
↖
17:52 mircea_popescu kinda why im giving you a two week lead here.
17:53 mircea_popescu danielpbarron pm
17:55 mircea_popescu that came out a lot dumber than intended. how about "plenty of time yet"
17:55 deedbot http://www.dianacoman.com/2017/12/14/eucrypt-chapter-2-a-source-of-randomness/ << Ossasepia - EuCrypt Chapter 2: A Source of Randomness
↖
17:58 diana_coman to round up the previous thread: previous patch on mpi remains in place but linked to standalone mpi project; EuCrypt got is own genesis patch that creates *the whole currently known structure*; each chapter comes with its own patch adding content
17:58 mircea_popescu onwards&upwards
18:01 phf верной дорогой идете, товарищи
~ 2 hours 55 minutes ~
20:57 phf diana_coman: since you basically split from mpi, i put you into a separate project http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=eucrypt
↖
20:57 mircea_popescu diana_coman one that I actually bought link to http://www.dianacoman.com/2017/10/02/some-costs-of-importing-randomness/ neh ? mightaswell...
↖
20:57 phf asciilifeform: http://downloads.cornall.co/ibm-capsense-usb/ is that what you used for your model f?
↖
21:03 phf ah found relevant bits in logs http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-12#1540407
21:03 a111 Logged on 2016-09-12 17:26 phf: asciilifeform: are you using breadboarded/soldered version, or you ended up printing the pcb too for the keyboard controller?
~ 15 minutes ~
21:19 asciilifeform aha phf, it
21:20 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-14#1751799 << this sounds mightily spiffy
21:20 a111 Logged on 2017-12-14 22:49 mircea_popescu: phf so basically this is cropping down nicely after all. proper vpatch (fixing mod6 's bane, the empty dir thing) + proper vdiff (hash-based preprocessing of rename/move + proper use of @@...@@ + keccak hashing).
21:24 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-14#1751797 << lolneato. congrats on success of FG dealership, danielpbarron
21:24 a111 Logged on 2017-12-14 22:48 mircea_popescu: in other crossposts, http://logs.minigame.bz/2017-12-14.log.html#t22:44:09
21:25 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-14#1751803 << at one time i linked to 'diff' src here, when hunting for ordering nonuniformity that turned out to be a uniturdism . it made koch's war crime, look clean.
21:25 a111 Logged on 2017-12-14 22:51 phf: hmm, there's a bit of complexity there as far as producing files/directories shuffle, which might take longer, but i'll start with paring things down. i haven't yet seen diff/patch sources closely!
21:27 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-21#1246540 << thread.
21:27 a111 Logged on 2015-08-21 01:22 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: try this on for size:
21:34 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-14#1751807 << the fg link goes to my www , naked , which imho is not obviously relevant : i recommend https://archive.is/CGQkR instead
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21:34 a111 Logged on 2017-12-14 22:55 deedbot: http://www.dianacoman.com/2017/12/14/eucrypt-chapter-2-a-source-of-randomness/ << Ossasepia - EuCrypt Chapter 2: A Source of Randomness
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