#trilema | 2017-08-15

mod6: below noise floor

00:13

in other web esoterica: http://packet.city/

00:13

"the greatest website to ever fit in a single TCP packet"

00:24

asciilifeform: so if you add back in the FZs that were removed in the 2^n version (re-adding in the 50% reduction of temp space that yields no opt.), do we get the ~runtime of the original?

00:26

just wondering if it could be a mechanical push, yet slightly more readable. maybe making 2^n version more grokable?

00:27

basically, being able to call something like:

00:27

Mul_Karatsuba(X0, Y0, P);

00:27

as opposed to:

00:27

Mul_Karatsuba(X(X'First .. X'First + K - 1),

00:27

Y(Y'First .. Y'First + K - 1),

00:27

P);

00:27

not that the latter is all /that/ bad.

00:28

just curious

00:35

mod6: i dun understand the question

00:35

if you do this, you get the original, what else could you get

00:36

maybe i should ask a different question: which part do you find to be less readble?

00:36

the changed lines, what else

00:37

e.g. the one you quoted

00:40

just was curious if your readability issue could be resolved with pulling the paramaters of Mul_Karatsuba back out in similar fashion to the original. 'tis all.

00:42

you can't 'similar to the original' , it would BE the original

00:42

phf multi-netsplit yes.

00:42

mod6: 'if grandmother had balls..' (tm)

00:42

asciilifeform> which is surreal << cache neh

00:43

heh. yeah ok.

00:43

the math is different from one to the other, is it not?

00:44

mod6: same

00:44

but no copying of the input

00:45

i dun get it then

00:45

get what?

00:46

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698054 :D

00:46

Logged on 2017-08-15 02:15 asciilifeform: mod6: you can't inline a recursive invocation, wtf

00:47

this'd be great actually.

00:47

mod6: to understand ffa, you absolutely gotta grasp how ada array slices ( which Always Do The Right Thing ) work

00:47

they're the foundational abstraction that makes the thing compact and readable

00:47

i dun get why, if you didn't change the maff, why you would make it more complicated

00:48

mod6: because we can't use the shorthand any moar

00:48

no moar x0, y0, etc

00:48

they don't exist

00:48

they're replaced with the slice expression

00:49

mmk

00:51

and incidentally mod6 , is it obvious why this only works if L is restricted to powers of 2 ?

00:53

mod6: an array slice ( concept which also exists in common lisp ) can be thought of as a sane man's pointer. i.e. it maps into the original, and writes go through; but it is guaranteed not to spill, out of the original or out of its own more constrained bound

00:54

it can be used as a procedure argument anywhere you could use an array.

00:56

array slices retain the indexing of the underlying array. this is The Right Thing ( see prev thread on subj where i explained to mircea_popescu ) but makes iterating over them slightly trickier in certain cases.

00:59

<+asciilifeform> and incidentally mod6 , is it obvious why this only works if L is restricted to powers of 2 ? << no, i think im missing the entire idea of why this is written this way.

01:00

mod6: look at x0, x1, y0, y1 in original kara-mul, and xl/xh in kara-square

01:00

they're temp copies of the multiplicands

01:01

they exist so that the input:output lengths invariants of subtraction and of kara recurse per se, 1:2, are met

01:01

( subtraction's -- 1:1 obviousness )

01:02

this is because in the original, you can have a L of, say, 3

01:02

which splits with K of 2 and J of 1

01:03

giving X0 of lengh 2, X1 - 1, Y0 - 2, Y1 - 1

01:04

but we're doing fixed length everythings, so , e.g., x0*y0 MUST occupy same physical space as x1*y1 etc

01:05

and you can't subtract ffa x0 - x1 unless they are same lengh !!

01:06

you can't use ada's array concatenation feature either, to cheat, because i banned it. it introduces implicit jump.

01:06

it is banned in all of asciilifeform's crypto code, 4evah.

01:07

alright. thanks for the explanation.

01:07

makes sense ?

01:08

try working through a case where k != j and see what happens.

01:08

see if you can predict how it will end.

01:08

( out of bounds exception, proggy stops. but where. )

01:09

*

asciilifeform bbl

~ 51 minutes ~

02:00

why is ln(16)/ln(2) so tidily and precisely 4?

02:00

what secrets of the universe did my inferior american education deprive me of?

02:01

...

02:02

4 / 1 ?

02:03

i...don't follow

02:04

16 is 2 to the power of 4.

02:05

this stays the same irrespective of which base you use to express the ratio.

02:07

aaah. then it was a /personal/ failing, not a systemic one.

02:07

im not even sure what the failing is ?

02:08

having forgotten how logarithms work

02:08

as per that ancient "doctor, is it bad if i hear voices ?" "only if you start answering."

02:08

heh

02:09

i suppose a better translation would be "doctor, i hear voices, they talk to me, should i worry ?" "you should worry when you start talking back."

02:10

oh subject of, i just had a grand time with rushdie's satanic verses.

02:11

coo

02:18

!!up crypt0

02:18

crypt0 voiced for 30 minutes.

~ 1 hours 2 minutes ~

03:20

!!up b00sterjuic3

03:20

b00sterjuic3 voiced for 30 minutes.

~ 35 minutes ~

03:55

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-14#1697607 << here is my computation (using 4096 bit limit; comes out to 4093 bits): http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/WonUN/?raw=true

03:55

Logged on 2017-08-14 17:20 mircea_popescu: this is actually going to be teh magic number of the republic. so at this juncture i would like to ask everyone to compute "the largest primorial (ie, product of all successive primes) that fits in 515 bits", sign it and put it into deedbot.

03:55

If using the 4160 bit limit, then I get the following (comes to 4150 bits): http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/ED76z/?raw=true

03:56

aka, I get the same output as both of PeterL's runs

03:57

lobbes ty!

04:07

in other lulz, "the taking of pelham 123" is one helluva usg-film offering. we find that "wall street guys" r criminalz, that everyday mta riders are heroic (even if a little half-breed), and all sorts of good and valuable citizenship lessons for life!

~ 6 hours 40 minutes ~

10:47

!~later tell mod6 http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/6WPk2/?raw=true << 2^n karatsubas, with same readability as 'classical'

10:47

asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.

10:48

using the 'rename' feature

10:55

no detectable performance difference at all, however. even with w=32768 .

10:58

... even with 1MBit (!!!) , i.e. 1048576 .

~ 19 minutes ~

11:17

*

mod6 looks

11:18

ah, ok. so you gotta add a subtype for that.

11:18

looks cleaner. not sure it is necessary though.

11:18

a topic for further discussion i suppose.

11:19

mod6: not sure WHAT is necessary ?

11:29

having to do the 'rename'

11:29

it's that, or forcing the reader to puzzle out repeated pastes of the slice expression

11:29

thanks for humoring me though

11:32

np mod6

~ 35 minutes ~

12:08

!~echo [ticker --high --market btcc] [ticker --low --market btcc]

12:08

4456.4344 3988.038296

12:12

in other heathen lulz, https://toughsat.appspot.com

12:13

Reply from Anonymnt & friendz: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/VwqRc/?raw=true

12:13

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698171 << this is a little rich.

12:13

Logged on 2017-08-15 14:58 asciilifeform: ... even with 1MBit (!!!) , i.e. 1048576 .

12:14

o.O

12:14

tuberculosis of the gut ?!

12:14

tl;dr I'm afraid to get picked apart if I come to #trilema, I prefer to stay on steemit and feed idiots full of shit.

12:14

shinohai hey, the forum is a high bar.

12:14

gut?!

12:14

lol!!

12:14

asciilifeform i never heard of this before ? i mean, lung, bone, some vacuous organs. but gut ?!

12:14

This is an actual disease, believe it or not.

12:15

*

mircea_popescu will now have to hit the textbooks.

12:15

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4209546/

12:15

Often misdiagnosed as Crohn's disease iirc

12:20

*

mircea_popescu remembers the day mycobacterium was called "koch's baccilus"

12:21

'палочка Коха'

12:21

must suck.

12:23

Charlie Shrem on twatter: "Bounty: I want to run a full node and connect to @Blockstream satellite. Sell me a DIY kit with all requirements"

↖ ↖

12:23

idiot

12:23

(From https://github.com/blockstream/satellite)

12:24

he STILL doesn't know how to run a node ? after all this fucking time ?

12:24

i dun think this one has the excuse of mere idiocy

12:24

He missed a lot of teh logs in prison!

12:24

rather : prison is the only employment he's qualified fopr

12:26

shinohai: link seems to refer to the satellite thing in present tense. it is live ?

12:26

lol

12:26

you don't understand how wediditreddit works.

12:26

but to summarize : words are slowly fuzzed in the desired emotional direction.

12:26

First you get out the crayons and build the prototype, then .....

12:27

present tense is merely a political requirement in the vein of "subway hero must be not white"

12:27

"Go to the #blockstream-satellite IRC channel on freenode for additional help."

12:27

>.>

12:27

oookay.

12:28

https://www.blockstream.com/satellite/satellite/ ( http://archive.is/XeYBv ) << claims to be live, lists channel freqs

12:28

they purchased time on 4 commercial sats

12:29

*

shinohai looks for an old rtl-sdr ....

12:30

"<Socal> Ah ok I don't know about FIBRE I was simply speaking on the SATCOM portion"

12:30

you know ? the SATCOM!!!!! portion

12:30

incidentally, is archive.is dead ?

12:30

motherfucking imbecile nothings omfg

12:30

2nd day of eternal '#1 in queue' crud

12:31

"look mom, i'm just like the nigger on tv! talking of the satcom portion!! would you like to hear more meaningless words ???"

12:31

12:27:29 Socal Mircea_popescu no it isn't it saves on bandwidth costs and doesn't require internet to get the BTC blockchain

12:31

they're so fucking stupid their continued existence is an insult to humanity.

12:32

"it doesn't require internet".

12:32

and the fucking littoral compressed lulzship doesn't require wheels.

12:32

cuz that's what the fucking wheel is, a REQUIREMENT. like totally optional.

12:32

in so far as publicity stunts go, this isn't even preposterously expensive -- anyone can rent a MHz or so of channel

12:32

Cuz .... it's pykrete!

12:32

asciilifeform i don't care about the fucking shrems involved. we know they're smegma.

12:33

i'm tal;king of the nobodies on a stick herp0derping importantly

12:33

the chumps. do you have any FUCKING IDEA how chumpy the esltarded chumps are ?!

12:33

because i don't. it's eaten >9k fathoms of cable and we plumbed no bottom yet.

12:34

this primorial thing is gonna run for a while eh

12:34

no ?

12:35

maybe i misunderstand the request.

12:36

it's a minute, what.

12:36

mod6: P = primorial(N) for some N such that P < 2**4096 .

12:36

just one number?

12:37

aha

12:37

i thought it was 1*2*3*5*7*11*13 ... all the way up through whatever prime fits into < 4160 bits.

12:38

mod6: we dun have enuff universe for that

12:38

( timewise or spacewise )

12:38

im not sure i know how to code this.

12:40

mod6: amusingly, if you ~did~ have a big enough and old enough universe to contain primorial(2**4096), you could factor, e.g., mircea_popescu's key, in polynomial time, with plain old gcd

12:45

shinohai: rtlsdr won't work, it dun go to 12GHz

12:47

or i suppose it would, if you have the guts from old tv sat dish

12:47

asciilifeform in fact has ~several~ dishes , from old renters of the grounds, but can't be arsed

12:51

so it turns out, i never heard of gut tb because you generally need aids to get it. and back when i was reading they didn't have aids just yet.

~ 49 minutes ~

13:41

!~later tell mod6 http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/au9GU/?raw=true << another formulation.

13:41

asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.

13:43

13:40:00 @gmaxwell (also for sending out transactions people can use many other options, including SMS and snail mail--- a txn is so small you can just communicate it however else you communicate. Snail mail is slow, but if you're only communicating with the outside world via that already...)

13:43

Dear lord

13:46

shinohai: anything, anything to make that Golden Socialist Future full of nonterrorist blocks made of nonterrorist tx...

13:48

!!up PeterL

13:48

PeterL voiced for 30 minutes.

13:48

thanks!

13:49

http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/ZI0Qx/?raw=true << reverse mpfhf hash function, given R, S, and length of message

13:52

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698240 << about a minute to write function, about 40 ms to evaluate

13:52

Logged on 2017-08-15 16:36 mircea_popescu: it's a minute, what.

13:55

PeterL: huh

13:58

http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/1DId9/?raw=true << my function, by the way

14:01

omfg PeterL what is that primality test

14:02

looks very painful.

14:14

it's a basic brute force primality test, what is wrong with it?

14:14

works fine for small numbers

14:28

!!up PeterL

14:28

PeterL voiced for 30 minutes.

~ 15 minutes ~

14:44

Interesting seeing teh different approaches. Instead of primality test, I just iterated through a static list/array of primes (I figure that list ain't changing anytime soon). Here's my potato code: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/X0jSt/?raw=true

14:45

lobbes: it isn't that this doesn't work, but that the effort needed to verify that you didn't somehow miss one , is substantial

14:45

Makes sense

14:45

see also the thread with mod6 re the q of 'what is a readable proggy'

14:46

or for that matter the one 2yrs ago re the hypothetical tabs-an'-spaces vpatches and 'what determines effort needed to read'

14:47

not that lists of primes ain't handy -- but that the effort needed to verify one is >= to what is needed to generate same. ergo why not generate.

14:49

True. Plus if someday I need a bigger list, then I gotta go editing hardcoded lists vs just flipping a parameter somewhere

14:50

And yeah, horrible to read to boot

14:52

try this: print a list of the primes up to 100 or 1000, remove one at random, then try to spot which is missing just by looking at the list

14:53

imho life is too short to use 'eyeball diff'.

14:56

right

14:58

!!up PeterL

14:58

PeterL voiced for 30 minutes.

15:13

!!up valica

15:13

valica voiced for 30 minutes.

15:13

valica: who goes ?

15:14

using PeterL's method, i get the same number with openssl

15:15

http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/6Un27/?raw=true

15:17

http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/FsDgf/?raw=true

15:23

http://trilema.com/2014/so-the-dollar-vigilante-scam-ring-is-going-to-jail/#comment-122630 << in other lulz

15:24

reads, interestingly, very much like the gut tuberculosis thing

15:24

i.e. 'this dun happen to folx with a working immune system'

~ 26 minutes ~

15:50

http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/au9GU/?raw=true << another formulation. << thanks for posting anyway

15:53

mod6: the three snippets are a pretty good, imho, intro course to 'you can have a useful, statically-compiled lang without promiscuous pointers'

15:55

yeah man. solid job.

15:58

!~ticker --market all

15:58

BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 4063.93, vol: 25410.14161658 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 4052.4, vol: 61518.92666876 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 4156.549995, vol: 27942.40520000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 4089.994, vol: 13752.7880282 | Volume-weighted last average: 4081.32302404

15:58

pretty serious goxlag, too

15:58

!~goxlag

15:58

asciilifeform: Error: "goxlag" is not a valid command.

15:58

4srs

15:58

damn.

15:59

imho oughta be reintroduced, this useful command.

16:00

loller

16:00

o hey peterl got teh mpfhf reverser done.

~ 18 minutes ~

16:19

noice

~ 18 minutes ~

16:37

http://trilema.com/2017/where-the-fuck-is-everyone/ << Trilema - Where THE FUCK!!! is everyone ?

16:38

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698272 << whole fucking point in such applications is diversity of approach.

16:38

Logged on 2017-08-15 18:44 lobbes: Interesting seeing teh different approaches. Instead of primality test, I just iterated through a static list/array of primes (I figure that list ain't changing anytime soon). Here's my potato code: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/X0jSt/?raw=true

16:41

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698273 << verification happens through coherence. if one man writes one program to do one calculation, that man must check that a) his implementation is correct and b) his design actually does take from input to output if correctly implemented. if however the lordship writes a dozen+ programs to do the same calculation, no one man needs to verify either a or b for his own item UNLESS there's

16:41

Logged on 2017-08-15 18:45 asciilifeform: lobbes: it isn't that this doesn't work, but that the effort needed to verify that you didn't somehow miss one , is substantial

16:41

divergence. and if there is divergence, there is significant educational benefit in it, as seen in http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698143

16:41

Logged on 2017-08-15 06:00 ben_vulpes: what secrets of the universe did my inferior american education deprive me of?

16:41

in other words, the republican model significantly reduces costs and, incredibly enough, introduces a new revenue stream.

16:42

these premises are dependent however on diversity of implementation. (remarkably, they are not dependent on correctness of implementation ; but they are dependent on correctness of treatment of divergence, ie, no "consensus-building", ever, at all)

16:52

In that case, I have a bit more simplified version of mine that more closely resembles what I started with before.

16:53

http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/qRtdC/?raw=true

16:58

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698279 << it has the significant advantage that it bridges into unrelated record. if your result diverges from the result, you now have a grounded suspicion re the source of whatever list you used.

16:58

Logged on 2017-08-15 18:50 lobbes: And yeah, horrible to read to boot

17:09

mircea_popescu: recall what dijkstra said ?

17:09

re what testing can and cannot reveal

17:10

let's play a little game : http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/En1cj/?raw=true

17:10

^ is a slightly modified version of what lobbes posted. it gives the correct answer, even

17:10

but if you were to use its list of primes for some other program...

17:11

asciilifeform are you proposing what exactly, that out of an array of ineffectual methods we're to choose one and stick to it ?

17:11

nope

17:11

mircea_popescu's observation was correct.

17:11

but imho incomplete.

17:11

testing only reveals the presence of errors, not their absence. sure. and guess what ? reading code with human eyes, also. and so on.

17:11

once you found the misspelling you found it and ere you found it the text was just as correctly spelled as it will be after you find it : "as far as i know, correctly spelled"

17:12

in asciilifeform's ( and probably everyone else's... ) experience, the most lethal bugs are ones which produce ~correct~ answer, ~all of the time

17:12

but via incorrect method.

17:12

the important difference is that this was not reusable but throwaway code. the requirement was "calculater result" not "write program"

17:13

this changes things.

17:13

this is true. but my original point was that it is impossible to verify the correctness of a list of primes other than by same procedure as generates one.

17:14

it's certainly possible. i know the list "3, 5, 7, 11" is a list of primes through memory.

17:15

'bro do you lift!11' 'hey i lifted myself off the bed today!'

17:15

could have a monk of saint ascii life form memorize primes by heart to the 1'000'000th one, referred to by the other monks when primes are required. "please, brother joseph, we need primes #5002 to #5040"

17:15

lol

17:16

asciilifeform you said impossible. it means something.

17:16

there's no "sporting chance" rules in logic, if your theory is defeated by trivial case your theory is still defeated.

17:16

i bet mircea_popescu had a riot reading russel & whitehead , 'idjits, taking 1500 pgs to prove 1+1=2, which i know to be so'

17:17

mno.

17:17

but i would have thrown frege against a wall had he "impossible" something i oculd trivially disprove.

17:17

which is why i read frege, and i don't read obama.

17:17

recalling correct answer from memory != solving .

17:17

this is fucking important. managing to go through 500 pages of highly contrived nonsense without flyiong out of my hand, not for everybody.

17:17

asciilifeform you said impossible by any other method.

17:18

*

asciilifeform straps on gas mask

17:18

maybe try strapping that thing off sometime. im startying to suspect "gas canister" doesn't say what you thought it said!

17:19

to briefly revisit upstack, imho a program which weighs more than its output, has a fundamental problem

17:19

plenty of programs output a boolean.

17:20

tru ( and i linked an rsa-to-nsat generator thing earlier today )

17:20

which, lulzily, refuses to eat anything above 2048-bit modulus

17:20

( why? i have nfi )

17:21

prolly munitions bs.

17:21

pretty sure that one's stuck at 512 to this day

17:21

( not updated since clinton reign )

17:23

anyway, ima try and pen a pre-rfc on tmsr-rsa, unless anyone has objections ?

17:23

didn't mircea_popescu make one in 2014 ?

17:24

the one where 'just store the fucking modulus and exponent'

17:24

yeah, well, it's been a while.

17:24

which one are you thinking of ?

17:25

*

asciilifeform digs for link...

17:25

there's been too much waffling re keys on my part (which means -- any). i feel bad about it an' i perceive gotta write up

17:25

I think it's fine, we can ratify / ammend it as needed I suppose.

17:25

mod6 yeah. more like a scratchpad than anything yet.

17:27

hm where did it go !

17:27

( mircea_popescu's original rsa piece )

17:28

dja mean the early gossip talk ?

17:28

no

17:29

the trilema on 'republican rsa key format'

17:30

you mean the k,e,N thing ?

17:30

aha

17:31

for my part, i'm curious re what part of rsa mircea_popescu thinks even needs to be standardized

17:31

pretty much logs only i thought

17:31

( i dun see any reason for a standard exponent, for instance. let it be a W-wide prime , different for each man )

17:31

asciilifeform plenty of things, gimme a moment here.

17:33

and no moar pissant smallint exponents, either. let it weigh as much as the modulus.

17:33

no moar 'we heathens have faster rsa because mother dropped us as babies and our rsatron does different work on different hamming weights'

17:35

see ?

17:36

which

17:39

asciilifeform's intent with 'p' is to push in the direction of maximum barking anarchy re pubkeys. as it is we have too many 'standards' as it is, ~all of them ill-conceived and smelling of sulfur.

17:41

and this also means as few 'magic numbers' as it is physically possible to get away with.

17:42

and this yes means that asciilifeform holds caps on modulus width to be asinine

17:44

p proggy opens up with the breathoflife preamble, e.g., (TMSR!8192*3,50*500) << 8192bit bus, 3 words of stack, 50 bytes of program following the closing ), 500 steps of execution max.

17:44

this means that the reader (READER, long before executing) knows precisely how much time and space the proggy requires.

17:44

so he can never be surprised by 'd00d's modulus is Too Big!111omfg'

17:45

if i specify a pubkey for myself with 65536-bit public mod, then other people can simply decide that i'm an arse and that verifying my sigs isn't actually +ev for them

17:46

it is a matter strictly between the fella generating the key, and his wot, not for the author of rsatron.

17:46

the duty of the rsatron author is ~to get the fuck out of the way~

~ 17 minutes ~

18:03

in that spirit, other thing asciilifeform aims for with 'p', is to zap the idiocy where pubkey was strictly an item for ~machine~ to read, and make it something primarily for ~man~ to read.

18:03

( while also operable on by machine, to demonstrate that the arithmetic in fact comes out as stated )

~ 18 minutes ~

18:22

asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2017/tmsr-rsa-spec-extremely-early-draft/

18:22

oh hey

18:22

mod6 ^

18:23

first question, of course, being whether there's value in changing the spec for key primes from "2048" to ">2046" bits.

18:23

http://trilema.com/2017/tmsr-rsa-spec-extremely-early-draft/#comment-122644 << 1st nitpick!1111

18:24

likewise we had the fingerprint thread

18:24

fingerprints are fundamentally retarded

18:24

no moar fingerprints. your key is your key.

18:25

no hash --- no collision, floating around somewhere in phase space waiting to be found.

18:25

you want to actually forbid them ?

18:25

see asciilifeform's earlier barf: not so interested in forbidding anything

18:26

but in not-standardizing.

18:26

so then what's teh problem.

18:26

if some d00d wants to go around saying 'my pubkey can also be referred to by the letter z' that's his life to lose.

18:26

um. you either standardize them to null, standardize them to something sane, or allow the empire to standardize them to something idiotic. this is your trilemma.

18:26

no way out of it.

18:26

i opted for 2.

18:26

i dun see this picture, where we GOTTA take a shit into this here fine vase, 'or empire will'

18:27

how about an unshat-in vase.

18:28

But vase shit has phosphorous, for the flowahs!

18:28

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-01#1664352 << see also thread

18:28

Logged on 2017-06-01 18:14 asciilifeform: a business card printed on a very spartan (100 'dpi' ) press , gives what, 350 x 200 b&w pixels ;

18:29

http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-27#1590895 , and http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-09#1640824 discussions also.

18:29

Logged on 2016-12-27 05:27 asciilifeform: the only sane 'fingerprint' is the entire modulus+exponent.

18:29

Logged on 2017-04-09 14:45 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally, the more i think about it the more i'm convinced the ONLY "fingerprint" for rsa key may be... the modulus. 4096 bits and fuck you, if you can't take 32 chars you don't belong here.

18:30

this is not altogether a weak argument. consider the converse though : suppose i wish to refer to my key by using fewer chars than 512 ?

18:30

this is fundamentally bad idea imho.

18:30

and there is no escape.

18:30

i mean, i call out "hey, slut" and a dozen eyes rise. these are collisions, and what of it.

18:30

it's like asking for a 17 that can also be referred to as 3.

18:30

but it's how life goes.

18:30

shitting where one stands is also 'how life goes'. for some.

18:30

for others, no.

18:31

consider : we often use [very!] short forms of ideas in here, and rely on the op to correctly resolve.

18:31

it's cheaper this way than to inline everything.

18:31

whole point of cryptosig is not-this.

18:31

to nail down the unambiguous and concrete.

18:31

but TO HAVE. when needed. not to always.

18:32

i don't carry around all my rifles all the time, to take a leak, etc. i can't.

18:32

non-1-to-1 pubkey is as useful as pistol that fires from both ends.

18:32

ie, outer space pistol ?

18:32

yes i can think of a contrieved situation that calls for one. but no i don't want it in the rack next to the ordinary ones.

18:32

(stability.)

18:33

mircea_popescu: was thinking of the aerial gun in ww1, before they figured out that the stuff on the nonbusiness end dun have to be same bullet, only same mass

18:33

but sure.

18:33

to be sure, i don't think you're making a weak case. im leaving the matter open, at least for a while, can you live with that ?

18:33

sure

18:34

now to the graver matter of mpfhf. http://trilema.com/2017/tmsr-rsa-spec-extremely-early-draft/#comment-122645

18:34

asciilifeform's ~whole argument is 'leave as much rsa a matter for pubkey maker as physically possible'

18:34

dja want to take it out altogether ?

18:34

well either it, or the constant-spacetime. and i'm quite sold on keeping the latter.

18:34

but i dun see how they can live together

18:34

am i missing something?

18:34

oaep won;t constant spacetime either.

18:34

why not ?

18:35

it's just a buncha xors

18:35

O(1)

18:35

xor(R)

18:35

hm.

18:35

yeah, it gotta go huh.

18:37

asciilifeform gone.

18:37

lol just when i thought up of a hypothetical way to save it!111

18:37

the 1and0 thing ?

18:37

consider :

18:38

tbh, i'd very much like to have an alternative there. i put in and took out the thing twice before announcing, this is the third.

18:38

P proggy specifies its time and space requirement , first thing

18:38

it dun have to be mpfhf so much as i'd like a GOOD alt.

18:38

this means that anything that can happen inside one, happens in fixed time and space

18:38

ok.

18:38

~after~ a mphf (or similar) hash is taken, the time and space required are known.

18:38

bang, magic, fixed-time-and-space.

18:39

uh ?

18:39

mpfhf varies.

18:39

yes but after you've calculated one particular hash, it won't vary...

18:39

you know ~that one~'s time and space size.

18:39

http://trilema.com/2017/tmsr-rsa-spec-extremely-early-draft/ << Trilema - TMSR-RSA spec, extremely early draft

18:40

yes, but you'd have to have writer-with-padder on your isolated machine, move pre-padded shit to the fire machine.

18:40

correct.

18:40

you can do that without me speccing it.

18:40

aha!

18:40

so not saved.

18:40

hm.

18:41

the ONE way to constant-mpfhf is to calculate ALL the tree of possibilities, 2^message length items EVERY TIME

18:41

this is so necessarily, as a converse statement of its strength.

18:41

oh hm waitasec

18:41

didn't i derive a bounding function for it...

18:41

it's bound yes.

18:42

by m bit size.

18:42

(by design!!11)

18:42

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-06#1679487 << thread, iirc

18:42

Logged on 2017-07-06 00:28 mircea_popescu: anyway, yes. bound.

18:43

asciilifeform are you proposing to simply "take" bound time every time ? cuz i dunno this can bew done irl.

18:43

if it always terminates, then yes

18:43

i dun see how not.

18:44

(i.e. if you, yourself, already computed H(x), then you know how many turns of the crank it took. and can pass that number along.)

18:44

yes it always terminates.

18:44

asciilifeform and what do you do, sleep(rest) lol

18:46

why naturally you gave me a 9000 steps, and that's a, e.g., (TMSR!8192*3,50*9000)......

18:46

and 9000 steps later, answer.

18:46

and not 8999, and not 9001.

18:47

i dun follow.

18:47

so, message M takes 105 bits and 114 steps. message M' takes 107 bits and 119 steps. message M'' takes 103 bits and 115 steps.

18:47

now what ?

18:49

(they're all 12 letter words say).

18:49

was more of a philosophical observation : that mphf is not turing-complete ( in the same way 'p' is not. deliberately )

18:49

yes. but it DOES fork on secret bits all the time.

18:49

and thereby any ~particular~ invocation, can be called bounded.

18:49

in fact -- thart's all it does.

18:49

it sure does.

18:49

lolyes

18:50

so unless you're willing to do ALL the alternatives every time, you won't have "true" constantttime.

18:50

theoretically you can make it not.

18:50

how ?

18:50

by not actually doing the flip-whole-thing bit

↖ ↖

18:51

but instead flipping a single bit that gets xored with the result every time you read from the would-have-been-flipped reg.

18:51

iirc i mentioned this to phf here.

18:51

hmm

18:51

( as optimization )

18:52

cuz it'd be either 1 or 0 huh

18:52

aha.

18:52

this is an interesting point.

18:52

( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-04#1679049 was the other . )

18:52

Logged on 2017-07-04 14:12 asciilifeform: one hint -- look at 'screw' as a modular congruence

18:52

constant-time MPFHF is now an open question for teh interested.

18:53

!~later tell peterl in case you were looking for more obscure fhf shit to do : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698518

18:53

Logged on 2017-08-15 22:52 mircea_popescu: constant-time MPFHF is now an open question for teh interested.

18:53

mircea_popescu: The operation succeeded.

18:53

of course, arguably if you can actually DO this, you will probably lose interest in the mphf method per se

18:53

maybe.

18:55

anyway. other than the above "can constantify mpfhf ?" question, also open is the matter of alternative padding. currently all we have is oaep.

18:57

!!up r0nin-

18:57

r0nin- voiced for 30 minutes.

18:57

hi mircea

18:58

who might you be, r0nin- ?

18:58

im guessing a medieval samurai ?

18:58

im a nobody

18:58

just occasional reader of trilema for amusement

18:58

aite.

18:59

r0nin-: would you like to become.. a somebody?

18:59

no

18:59

r0nin-: consider making a key?

18:59

aite.

18:59

somebodyhood is overrated eh ?

18:59

http://trilema.com/2017/where-the-fuck-is-everyone/

18:59

evidently!

19:00

is there a link to this youtube elsehwere?

19:00

shit is blocked in my area

19:00

jaysus

19:00

r0nin-: out of curiosity, where ? china ?

19:00

poland

19:00

every fucking nazi thing gets banned

19:01

<mircea_popescu> somebodyhood is overrated eh ? << Hey, people are selling "DON'T BE SOMEBODY!!!" now <mircea_popescu> somebodyhood is overrated eh ?

19:01

r0nin- it was in the logs, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-14#1697556

19:01

Logged on 2017-08-14 15:12 asciilifeform: in other lulz, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzZb6kfctEU << 'my father would spin like a dreidel in his grave if he saw'

19:01

betcha you played wolfenstein without the swasticas , with green blood, too..

19:01

r0nin- so get a you know, alt-ip

19:02

<mircea_popescu> somebodyhood is overrated eh ? << Hey, people are selling "DON'T BE SOMEBODY!!!" now >> http://www.returnofkings.com/125632/the-influence-curve

19:02

r0nin-: dun go away, i'ma make a mirror just for ya

19:02

lol the faggot commenting on the video

19:02

i got it going

19:02

twist : voiceover was by alf all along!

19:03

fishbirding or w/e it's called!

19:03

r0nin-: ok

19:04

lol

19:14

Fishwiving? Birddogging? Doggystyling?

19:14

BingoBoingo: that was a riotously terrifyingly stupid piece...

19:15

( the 'influence' thing )

19:15

will you summarize ? i dun intend to read it.

19:15

http://www.returnofkings.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/influence-vs-enemy1.jpg << summary

19:16

mmkay.

19:16

'nail that sticks up is hammered down' or how it went.

19:16

snoaromatic

19:16

is these for people who actually give a shit re pantsuit or what.

19:16

aha, for whom else

19:17

i totally should translate that "chinese dissident" article sometime.

19:17

and as always reader is presumed to count

19:17

iirc you did translate

19:17

ah ? ok then

19:17

the one where 'come to moma's cunt ir we'll give yer wife anabortion every day'

19:18

aha!

19:18

or maybe i read it in ro, i faghet

19:18

"whether she needs one or not"

19:18

aha!!

19:18

was pretty good in ro, i thought.

19:18

aaanyway. everyone's a mathematician and everyone's a warrior nao ?

19:19

what else are these halfwits born-ready for ? besides "everything" i mean./

19:19

dun forget, generals also

19:19

and what else.

19:19

fucking walking, talking stem cells on two legs.

19:19

*

asciilifeform sings 'modern major general'

19:28

~<+mircea_popescu> asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2017/tmsr-rsa-spec-extremely-early-draft/ << ah, thanks!

19:28

*

mod6 reads scrollback

19:28

mah pleasure

19:33

http://trilema.com/2012/cine-se-casatoreste/ << original.

19:33

dun seem to be an en variant and yet i vaguely recall one.

~ 40 minutes ~

20:14

<+r0nin-> no << heh, so much for that eh

~ 39 minutes ~

20:53

mircea_popescu et al : trilema.com/2015/he-who-gets-married/

20:54

^ http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698589

20:54

Logged on 2017-08-15 23:33 mircea_popescu: dun seem to be an en variant and yet i vaguely recall one.

~ 41 minutes ~

21:35

wb

21:35

good evening

21:37

how goes tonight?

21:37

train sucked, but dinner was good. I'll take it.

21:37

yours?

~ 15 minutes ~

21:53

lamb stu.

21:53

asciilifeform ty!

21:54

"It's all very simple, you sit in the embassy and dissideate"

21:55

heh not so bad.

21:58

mike_c: good!

22:02

good god. I downloaded these patches one by one, but there's about a million seals.

22:03

guess i need to grepcut this thing

22:03

mike_c: easiest is to just grab this folder, http://btcbase.org/data/stable/ (and http://btcbase.org/data/experimental/ if you want some "unreleased" shit)

22:04

actually i've no idea what you're talking about, but considering "seals" i assumed it's trb

22:04

oh. yeah. ffs, why was i following offline todo.

22:04

thanks

22:07

there's also the mod6 method that builds the whole thing for you, but i haven't tried that since before i wrote own v presser..

22:08

phf it'd have been great for shrem, had he enough fucking sense to read his own name.

22:14

waiwat

22:15

i think that's re http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698201

22:15

Logged on 2017-08-15 16:23 shinohai: Charlie Shrem on twatter: "Bounty: I want to run a full node and connect to @Blockstream satellite. Sell me a DIY kit with all requirements"

22:15

aha.

22:15

aah

22:16

i dun quite get how come that muppet is still in circulation. i'd naively imagine that he's spent

22:17

you know what happens to garbage, asciilifeform ?

22:17

it gets taken to the dump.

22:17

where it... sits. eternally.

22:18

it sits. not speaks.

22:18

sometimes a flood or something comes and raises it up again, then it's taken to dump again, sits there more...

22:18

there's no specific end to garbage.

22:18

asciilifeform it only speaks if you listen.

22:18

tru

22:18

there's spent beer cans from like 1972 sitting somewhere closer to manhattan than you are.

22:18

just... sitting there. screaming COORS! in the darkness.

22:19

if someone dug them up and shone a light on them, they'd scream it in full color.

22:19

one time asciilifeform went into a demolition site, found newspapers from 'watergate' in the spaces between old cinderblocks, yes.

22:20

surprisingly -- readable, and in decent mechanical shape

22:20

so in other random lulz, i just built a pulse checker out of this ten cent girly hairpiece. it's about 20cm long, and basically a chinese plastic spiral with teeth. if you hold it up,. one hand on each edge, and prop your elbows against your thorax it vibrates with the pulse vehehery visibly.

22:29

asciilifeform what's the fine synonym for epheb we were using at some point re the herdemocracy aparatchicks ? i'd like to revive it.

22:30

preet?

22:31

no no.

22:31

homosexual synonym, not quite minion

22:31

gah i fucking hate lapses

22:32

catamite?

22:32

<+mike_c> oh. yeah. ffs, why was i following offline todo. << aha, the ONLINE version is certainly less work

22:32

ty!

22:35

yes. not building yet, but closer.

22:40

mod6 is gcc 4 necessary? like 5 is not expected to work?

22:42

blech, i guess make is more likely culprit. it's calling "c ..." instead of "gcc ..."

22:46

mike_c: i had it working with pretty much everything, gcc4, gcc5, clang/llvm. when i build manually i just use dependencies that whatever local package gives me, at which point make Just Works

22:46

yeah, no luck yet. that's what i get for spinning up an ubuntu server out of laziness probably.

22:47

ubuntu is not particularly known to misbehave here

22:50

http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/iKxpS/?raw=true

22:50

^ misbehaving.

22:50

*

mod6 looks

22:50

somebody very recently posted same thing

22:50

it means that buildroot failed

22:51

( failed , specifically, to produce a working gcc envir )

22:51

yeah, very strange

22:51

make sure to use gcc4, i've seen problems myself with gcc5

22:51

i'll roll back

22:52

ooh, you know what, looking at the latest v tree, it looks like the makefiles are modified in all kinds of buildroot specific ways!..

22:53

so i've no idea if it even builds outside of buildroot anymore, but judging by

22:53

export CC=$(shell readlink -f toolchain/usr/bin/x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl-gcc)

22:53

it shouldn't

22:53

mike_c: did you get all of the vpatches, seals, and other things as described in the Howto?

22:54

yeah

22:54

ok. good deal.

22:54

i mean, i used your perl script

22:54

and it looks like they are there

22:54

that should be fine. there was a fella in here about a week ago with the same problem as you're having/

22:55

we never did resolve what it was. and strangely, i've never seen it before. im perplexed.

22:55

well, we will hopefully soon see if gcc4 works. then there is a culprit.

22:55

ultimately we determined it to be some type of environment issue.

22:55

sure, hopefully.

22:57

the buildroot (aka 'rotor') thing is a dour wartime expedient, in case anyone forgot -- if we had a musltronic linux, or a bsd (i.e. non-glibc os) it would be unnecessary

22:59

gcc (Ubuntu/Linaro 4.7.4-3ubuntu12) 4.7.4 << will try

23:00

alright.

23:01

erll, quite obviously for the makefile to work you have to have a file "toolchain/usr/bin/x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl-gcc" relative to where you're calling "make" from

23:02

if he follows the directions exactly, shouldn't be an issue.

23:02

phf: read makefile.unix

23:03

that's the one that originally shipped with the thing, still there

23:03

trinque: possibly my thing is not pressing correctly, i don't see it here http://btcbase.org/patches/makefiles/tree/

23:04

http://btcbase.org/patches/makefiles/tree/bitcoin/src/makefile.unix << satoshi downcased it for reasons

23:04

aaah

23:07

but i don't think that's the one he's using, if he's building with rotor.. that whole new build infrastructure seems to exist apart.

23:07

there's this whole dispatch mechanism, http://btcbase.org/patches/makefiles/tree/bitcoin/build/Makefile#L35 but it exists in it's own ./build/ folder

23:08

correct, meant to say that if he wanted to skip all that, could by going there. I may have misunderstood.

23:09

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1698656 << in re

23:09

Logged on 2017-08-16 02:53 phf: so i've no idea if it even builds outside of buildroot anymore, but judging by

23:09

yeah, ty

23:10

for extra lulz if you call "make" from src you're going to run rotor build, but if you want to run "legacy" build system you do make -f makefile.unix

23:10

this exists: /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/build/toolchain/usr/x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl

23:18

any luck?

23:18

mod6 at edge of seat over there...

23:18

this is driving me crazy aha.

23:18

i don't want it to jinx it. not done yet. but it seems to be working much better.

23:19

and there's no way, apparently, to solve this for everyone until bitcoinos/cuntos is a thing.

23:19

mike_c: does this exist /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/build/toolchain/usr/bin/x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl-gcc ?

23:19

phf: <+mike_c> this exists: /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/build/toolchain/usr/x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl

23:19

oh -gcc

23:19

...

23:19

yeah, what I pasted.

23:19

no -gcc

23:20

for the record, i don't have that in my builds either, ignore that mike_c

23:20

proceed.

23:20

if this doesn't work, i'll just help you step-by-step myself. no worries.

23:21

wtf.

23:22

mod6: it's your own makefile, it does readlink for that path. you can't not have it in yoru build

23:22

have you ever built the new way phf?

23:23

ftr, my most recent mod6 recipe buiild is ~week old, went without issue.

23:30

http://trilema.com/2017/the-taking-of-pelham-123-x2/ << Trilema - The Taking of Pelham 123 x2

23:44

half an hour later, failed. that's disappointing. but it did a lot more.

23:46

ok. can you paste the error. i'll help you now if you have time, or we can try tomorrow (whenever) you have more.

23:46

./toolchain/usr/include/ncurses -O2 -I/var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/build/buildroot-2015.05/output/../../toolchain/usr/include --param max-inline-insns-single=1200 -fPIC -c ../ncurses/lib_gen.c -o ../obj_s/lib_gen.o

23:46

_22483.c:835:2: error: expected Ã¢ before Ã¢t

23:47

ah, yeah.

23:48

sec.

23:49