Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-03-10 | 2017-03-12 → ↓
00:56 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1624970 << where once you were a crackpot laboring in public obscurity, now you are a luminary of the republic. defections will continue apace until the old empires yield their last secret.
00:56 a111 Logged on 2017-03-11 00:16 asciilifeform: if some unknown d00d had not written to me last night, even now i might be doing it
~ 7 hours 42 minutes ~
08:39 mircea_popescu wtf is wrong with ext!
08:40 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes there is an ancient observation (toqueville) that slavery is not unbearable to peoples in proportion to its intensity, but in proportion to the velocity of its reduction. he supports it by showing that the germans, more abject slaves in 1700 than any central asian people, found their situation tolerable ; whereas the french, significantly freer ~and becoming freer~ found the uninstantaneous speed of the change INTO
08:40 mircea_popescu LERABLE.
08:40 mircea_popescu i suspect alf exhibits the same issue.
08:41 shinohai I awake to the screeches of `PREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET` this morning with coffee. Hail to the Trumpreich.
08:41 mircea_popescu o btw, where was that lulz
08:42 shinohai https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/10/nyregion/preet-bharara-us-attorney.html
08:45 mircea_popescu https://archive.is/vuBRg (rehash of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619007 ; proudly reported in the beobachter )
08:45 a111 Logged on 2017-02-27 12:10 mircea_popescu: dude, they fucking gutted them. olympus agreed to pay the usg ~70 billion yen in fines, and install obama's children as an "independent outside monitor". whole corp market cap being you know, 1.3trn or some shit. who the fuck pays 5% of the market cap as a fine already, what is this, Совет Экономической Взаимопомощи ?
08:47 mircea_popescu o hey, one less shithead made in india around ?
08:48 mircea_popescu meanwhile in rotherham, http://68.media.tumblr.com/15036d15ef5dcfbf18d1bc22bc4dbfb9/tumblr_nxrc1dzSGS1tz8fr1o1_1280.jpg
08:51 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625313 << on the basis ~of actual measurements~ your position is indomitable. wtf, HALF A SECOND for ~8~ deep directory structure ?!
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08:51 a111 Logged on 2017-03-11 04:05 asciilifeform: Framedragger: imho the 'use existing fs' thing is a dead end.
08:51 mircea_popescu contrary to what ANYONE may pretend, ext4 IS NOT A FS!!!! it's a ridiculous toy at best.
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08:52 mircea_popescu ie, the reason usgtard is all "oh, random is not really broken" when phuctor came out exactly reduces to "well, it's fucking broken, but you should see the filesystem!"
08:55 Framedragger asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for completeness, i should state that it may be "workable" (in the sense of slightly less horrible) to just keep a flat dir tree structure, one or two levels deep - if you don't ask fs to list files in dir and just want to access filenames you already know, it's ~okay-ish. but i think i agree that the whole fs idea needs to be dumped, in general
08:55 mircea_popescu bullshit.
08:55 mircea_popescu im not using this thing. how is it better than windows ?
08:55 Framedragger hey, you wanted some fs test, i'm just reporting on levels of shittiness found
08:55 Framedragger it's not, it's not
08:55 mircea_popescu yeah i don't have a problem with you. still monumentally pissed off.
08:56 mircea_popescu to revisit http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625097 which is apparently a daily fixture by now :
08:56 a111 Logged on 2017-03-11 01:11 mircea_popescu: i can't bring myself to move my piss away from dks, or anyone in his generation's face.
08:56 Framedragger yeah i especially liked the amazing speed of directory deletion
08:56 mircea_popescu NONE OF THEM DID ANYTHING USEFUL. AT ALL. BUNCH OF PRETENTIOUS POINTLESS USELESS IMBECILES NOT WORTH PISSING AWAY FROM!
08:57 mircea_popescu "oh i had a job i went to work through traffic every morning"
08:57 mircea_popescu fuck you and that roadside wench of your mother.
~ 20 minutes ~
09:17 mircea_popescu Framedragger suppose you store the blocks whole. what is the seek time of one dozen 1mb files dispersed randomly in a 8 deep directory structure, defined as (time when all are in ram) - (time when call was made) ?
09:18 mircea_popescu make say 1mn total an' see
09:20 Framedragger mircea_popescu: to be clear, the way this would work is, there'd still be symlinks at the bottom ends of the dir structure, pointing to blocks (which are stored in a single dir, say)?
09:21 mircea_popescu nah. here's the scheme again :
09:22 Framedragger also, as asciilifeform said, cache can really confuse the hell out of any metrics. e.g., disk cache. so i'd need to probably restart whole box to be sure (yes lol, but i think i should)
09:22 mircea_popescu 1. actual blocks (1mb files) are stored in a directory structure, based on their hash say. this is 8 deep because hey, max filecount in a dir, we want to make a proper system.
09:22 mircea_popescu 2. index to those blocks (say, eg, to find txn, or anything else) is stored in a SEPARATE dir structure, and at the bottom there's simlinks to the block files.
09:23 mircea_popescu so your storage looks like /(blocks, txn, addies, whatever)/abcd/etc/(abcd.dat or abcd.symlink etc)
09:23 Framedragger (you'd need to have a *lot* of blocks to have average num of files per second-to-deepest dir be >= 1; i dont think one needs 8 levels, but i see the point in trying this)
09:24 mircea_popescu Framedragger the point is that we don't want to make any more provedly breaking systems.
09:24 mircea_popescu if the total number of blocks your machine can produce is 2**4096, then your design will also store 2**4096 blocks.
09:25 Framedragger mircea_popescu: sure, but do you expect to reach **10^24** nodes before trb-i?? (http://fd.mkj.lt/stuff/fsgraph2.png)
09:25 mircea_popescu (and if this is untenable, THEN THE DESIGN GETS MODIFIED!!! no fucking "solutions" of shoving shit under carpet and letting mp discover it in 2017 whiole spending however many years eating food we didn't pay for and pretensions to "engineering" and "intellectual lifge" we don't deserve.)
09:25 Framedragger anyway, fair enough, for now
09:26 mircea_popescu Framedragger in any case i don't expect to optimize BEFORE DESIGNING holy shit. talk about early optimizations. this is the measuring stage. you optimize nothing.
09:26 Framedragger suresure.
09:26 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625335 << i'm surprised that ext4 is even considered, as opposed to ext2. i believe we even had a thread about it some long time ago
09:26 a111 Logged on 2017-03-11 13:51 mircea_popescu: contrary to what ANYONE may pretend, ext4 IS NOT A FS!!!! it's a ridiculous toy at best.
09:27 mircea_popescu phf well he's considering what he's considering, seeing how he's doing the measuring. i was kinda biasing towards ext2 in the previous discussions (which i guess nobody reads or something ?) , but hey, can't impede man's independent manhood!
09:27 mircea_popescu gotta start somewhere anyway.
09:28 Framedragger http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-09#1623751 i suppose i couldve started with ext2
09:28 a111 Logged on 2017-03-09 17:41 mircea_popescu: Framedragger the most pressing matter to my eyes right now is getting ext2/ext4 benchmarked for our specified purpose.
09:28 phf i believe alf even pointed out the obvious "journaling file systems are going to journal"
09:28 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=ext2 << for shits and giggles.
09:28 mircea_popescu Framedragger no seriously, nothing wrong with it. now we have numbers. they're good to have.
09:29 mircea_popescu phf i don't follow. so what if they are ?
09:30 mircea_popescu there's an item in the specification of journaling that it must not work which i missed or something ?
09:31 Framedragger mircea_popescu: so in your proposed-to-be-tested scheme, there are two separate eight-deep trees? may i ask, why do blocks need their own tree - after all, it's just an int. do you expect block number to overflow an unsigned 32 bit int? because you *really* don't need 8-deep structure for dispersing 2**32 nodes (again: http://fd.mkj.lt/stuff/fsgraph1.png / http://fd.mkj.lt/stuff/fsgraph2.png )
09:31 Framedragger but if it's for 'defensive' benchmarking, sure. just pointing out.
09:31 mircea_popescu well if you're storing them by thyeir hash...
09:32 mircea_popescu it's a hash. you're thinking store by blockheight ?
09:32 Framedragger ah, ah
09:32 Framedragger yeah but i forgot how to bitcoin. i guess blockheight bad idea?
09:32 mircea_popescu can definitely also store by shifted blockheight, 0000/0000 etc. it will still be a thing as large as the other one
09:32 Framedragger yes that's what i meant. which, i dunno, maybe bad assumption of 'only one chain', or sth.
09:33 mircea_popescu (pretending for a second the design is sane, which it isn't -- who the fuck counts by int a set of hashed items omfg)
09:33 mircea_popescu Framedragger only one chain is not bad assumption.
09:33 Framedragger kk. so, ok. only thing is i'm swamped in march, so will have to wait. (if anyone wants c code i wrote so far, ping me)
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09:34 mircea_popescu (for shits and giggles, anyone looked at what happens once blockcount overflows ?)
09:34 mircea_popescu Framedragger dun worry about it. lordship coming up for discussion soon anyway, and ima propose you (an' some other fellows), so.
09:35 phf i think the deep value in an exercise like "replace db with a filesystem" is the reduction of moving parts. ext2 is a straightforward inode based tree, with a separate relocation phase, etc. journaling adds the whole overhead (for it's primarily cognitive) of secondary redundancy that you now have to factor into all your considerations
09:35 phf *for me it's
09:35 mircea_popescu no argument there.
09:35 mircea_popescu what i want to hear is, (preferably proof) as to why journaling filesystem can't store files in directories!
09:38 mircea_popescu Framedragger for the sake of argument : "here's link to my work so far published on my blog" is worth a guinea. http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625386 is worth twopence.
09:38 a111 Logged on 2017-03-11 14:33 Framedragger: kk. so, ok. only thing is i'm swamped in march, so will have to wait. (if anyone wants c code i wrote so far, ping me)
09:38 Framedragger ah yeah, blog. fucking backlog, man
09:39 * Framedragger slowly chopping log
09:39 mircea_popescu you ever go to school ? what usually happens there's a chick there that's really good pre-puberty. then she starts bleeding, and she skips some classes / homeworks / attentionpaying. and then... she can never catch back up again. because interlocking.
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09:40 mircea_popescu dun be the girl left behind!!1
09:40 Framedragger problem is multiple homework/class/job-domains, and the context-switching :) but yeah
09:40 mircea_popescu :D
09:41 mircea_popescu (and if the foregoing didn't happen where you went to school... you didn't.)
~ 20 minutes ~
10:02 BingoBoingo !!up grubles
10:02 deedbot grubles voiced for 30 minutes.
~ 1 hours ~
11:02 asciilifeform !#s bitcoinfs
11:02 a111 23 results for "bitcoinfs", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=bitcoinfs
11:02 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2014-10-31#904553 << earliest, apparently, thread
11:02 a111 Logged on 2014-10-31 00:21 asciilifeform: as in, 'bitcoinfs.'
11:04 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625333 << as i also described earlier, there are fundamental problems with all 'general purpose' fs, from bitcoin pov. mainly, they 'pessimize' for 'least common case', which happens to be our ~most~ common case : creation of file
11:04 a111 Logged on 2017-03-11 13:51 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625313 << on the basis ~of actual measurements~ your position is indomitable. wtf, HALF A SECOND for ~8~ deep directory structure ?!
11:05 asciilifeform the other fundamental problem, and the reason why asciilifeform's interest in recycling old fs for trb is ~0, is that imho trb needs LESS dependency on open sores crud, rather than moar
11:05 mircea_popescu we create 6 files /hour
11:05 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: symlink is a file for this purpose
11:05 asciilifeform and you'll be creating 2-3000 per block
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11:05 mircea_popescu ah, is it ?
11:05 asciilifeform aha.
11:05 mircea_popescu myeah. that's no good.
11:06 asciilifeform but for the l0gz, lemme finish: replacing bdb, massive turd, with ext (or reiser, or any) equally or greater mass turd, (and now with linux dependence !!) is not a win.
11:06 mircea_popescu this is a misrepresentation : the turd is in there already.
11:06 mircea_popescu currently, on all nodes.
11:06 asciilifeform bdb - is
11:07 mircea_popescu so there's no "replacing". excising part of the tumour.
11:07 mircea_popescu bdb sits on a fs.
11:07 mircea_popescu currently the dependency is bdb + ext? ; if it becomes ext? it is less not same.
11:07 asciilifeform mno. the current dependency is 'bdb + AN fs'
11:07 mircea_popescu mno.
11:08 mircea_popescu it's more like bdb + ALL fs in this list.
11:08 asciilifeform anyway i described an algo that wasn't retarded and doesn't pull in 10,000 lines of open sores ???. and it's as if this neverhappened, for some reason.
11:08 mircea_popescu becomes no bdb ; this fs. huge improvement.
11:08 mircea_popescu link ?
11:09 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624240
11:09 a111 Logged on 2017-03-10 16:57 asciilifeform: btw i will also put down in the log, one very simple possible algorithm for a 'txidx-fs' :
11:09 mircea_popescu it's not "as if it never happened". it ACTUALLY DID NOT HAPPEN.
11:09 mircea_popescu how am i going to profile your dreams ?
11:09 asciilifeform profiling it right now, actually
11:09 asciilifeform since ben_vulpes never came back with a #
11:09 mircea_popescu well so then. it never happened because you never published. dun dun dun.
11:10 asciilifeform meanwhile, opened the binder of horrors, with trb src, and found some lulz, which is actually what i sat down at the terminal to share:
11:11 asciilifeform http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.h?v=makefiles#0709 << these are what shitoshi actually stored with the txid
11:11 asciilifeform notice, they aren't simply block indices. these'd be fixed length, and might even get reasonable performance in ye olde bdb;
11:11 mircea_popescu heh
11:11 asciilifeform BUT the tard HAD TO, for some reason, make these variably-sized!
11:11 asciilifeform he stores TX-WHERE-SPEND lists!!!
11:12 asciilifeform so neither my 'bitcoinfs', nor mircea_popescu's let's-abuse-ext, will work, until this garbage is excised
11:13 mircea_popescu i'm not even proposing we abuse ext, i just wish to know if it could work. so far, unencouraging.
11:13 asciilifeform (there is no actual reason to cache where-spents! aside from how the tard probably thought 'my db is slow. let's make it store redundant liquishit, that'll help')
11:20 asciilifeform now, there is one nuance ( that i'm not convinced shitoshi adequately dealt with, either , see http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#0755 for instance )
11:21 asciilifeform namely, that a particular tx can reside in more than one block, if the leading end frays (forks)
11:22 asciilifeform however it is possible to handle this sanely:
11:22 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/952995C2D088259A83873F4F1C5ABEA57B4E9EBB4D2B41D03C4916989F98B4CF << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1405...3289 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '199.182.78.50 (ssh-rsa key from 199.182.78.50 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown US MI)
11:22 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/952995C2D088259A83873F4F1C5ABEA57B4E9EBB4D2B41D03C4916989F98B4CF << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1677...4143 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '199.182.78.50 (ssh-rsa key from 199.182.78.50 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown US MI)
11:23 asciilifeform there are two possible places for a duplicated tx: an orphaned (nonlongestchain) block, and a snake-tongue (if you will), one of two fork prongs of equal length, on the leading end.
11:23 mircea_popescu it's probably the cause for the whole spend thing, as a sort of unexamined insurance.
11:23 asciilifeform the Right Thing, as i see it, is : if a tx is in orphaned block, it does not belong in the index table
11:23 mircea_popescu anyway, the correct solution has to go along the lines of "nope. only one block."
11:23 mircea_popescu yep
11:23 asciilifeform if trb is in a state of snake tongue, ALL of the affected tx do not belong in the index table
11:24 mircea_popescu yep
11:24 asciilifeform (when new block comes in, to lengthen one end or the other of the snake tongue, the antecedent blocks get checked O(N), 'manually')
11:25 asciilifeform eeeevery single fucking time i sit down and assume that shitoshi did the obvious, simple, correct thing, and build a hypothetical on ~that~, i later open the binder and find that -- guess what
11:25 asciilifeform he did something entirely opposite.
11:25 asciilifeform and which created 1,001 new problems that had no business existing.
11:26 asciilifeform 'let's make blocks variable length' 'let's make tx variable length' 'let's make tx INDICES variable and UNBOUNDED length' 'because mother dropped me as a baby'
11:27 deedbot http://qntra.net/2017/03/choo-choo-motherfuckers-trump-train-begins-rolling-over-opposition/ << Qntra - Choo Choo Motherfuckers: Trump Train Begins Rolling Over Opposition
11:30 mircea_popescu lelz.
11:30 mircea_popescu choo choo indeed.
11:31 asciilifeform sooo mircea_popescu , to revisit upstack , the entire doublespendpreventer mechanism in trb relies on this nonsense , http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#0855 << is where it marks spent, and http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#0847 is the doublespendtrap
11:31 mircea_popescu aha
11:31 asciilifeform and in turn this relies on storing the spend-tx-array (yes) INSIDE the indices db!! http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.h?v=makefiles#0713 <<
11:31 mircea_popescu the insanity of putting such a thing there, as opposed to you know, THE FUCKING WALLET
11:31 asciilifeform which prevents the use of ANY sane (fixed-length keys to fixed-lenght values) db !!
11:32 mircea_popescu pretty much has to go.
11:32 asciilifeform without gutting and replacing the entire logic of trb.
11:32 mircea_popescu (note that at no point the preservation of satoshi's indexing scheme was contemplated)
11:33 mircea_popescu diana_coman ^ i think you might lulz.
11:33 asciilifeform it isn't clear why to preserve anything else, if this is amputated. it is the very example of 'grandfather's pistol' -- any mistake is a) not necessarily detectable with ANY kind of testing b) potential reactor melt
11:33 Framedragger http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625413 << i will also remind that http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625312 which (i forgot this last night) means that in my view, there's no friggin' way eight-level-deep tree structure can hold transactions. every symlink is a file, and on top of that, with 8 levels, most about every transaction will create multiple additional folders
11:33 a111 Logged on 2017-03-11 16:05 asciilifeform: and you'll be creating 2-3000 per block
11:33 a111 Logged on 2017-03-11 03:53 Framedragger will check tomorrow if the insane size was from his shitty c. but actually, probably not - in ext3/ext4, a folder is an inode and an inode points to unique data block - minimum size of which is 4k. given an expansive recursive tree, you get what you get.
11:33 asciilifeform (permits double spend)
11:33 mircea_popescu asciilifeform pfff.
11:33 mircea_popescu proper doublespent check, not this bs.
11:34 mircea_popescu it wouldn't surprise me if a corner case were discovered where THIS permits doublepsend
11:34 Framedragger *59M* for 1000 'transactions', *before* symlinks are even saved. just the folders (7-level-deep folders.)
11:34 mircea_popescu as it is, now.
11:34 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: you're talking 'substantial rewrite'.
11:34 mircea_popescu i am.
11:34 mircea_popescu but understand it's not the case "this - works, replacement might not"
11:34 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: could be interesting to test for double spends 'manually' (using specially written proggy that walks the blox)
11:34 mircea_popescu the case is -- this probably does not work.
11:34 Framedragger mircea_popescu: which means that i don't see how it could work even given mystery-amazing fs performance (...), *space-wise*.
11:35 mircea_popescu i've not seen any. would be more interesting to test for the hole manually by fuzzing on testnet
11:35 mircea_popescu afaik very little of that was done early on.
11:36 * asciilifeform brb
11:36 mircea_popescu Framedragger so basically each index is an extra terrabytwe
11:36 Framedragger yup.
11:36 mircea_popescu well i've seen some multi-tb hdds :D
11:36 mircea_popescu (obviously -- not ssds ahahahah)
11:37 Framedragger well. if we do linear extrapolation, bout 14400 terabytes for transaction index given 250mil transactions....
11:37 mircea_popescu think, it's a tree. 1/3 to 1/2 is cut by that
11:37 Framedragger 59M for 1000tx. *before* symlinks are stored. (granted, they'll be small)
11:38 Framedragger you're right, the growth *won't* be linear. but...
11:38 mircea_popescu anyway. try ext2 too sometime ?
11:38 Framedragger guess so.
11:39 Framedragger mircea_popescu: you sure you want benchmarks? /me thinks it's a lost cause
11:39 mircea_popescu the logs are hungry for numeric values.
11:39 Framedragger but good to have concrete reproducible data to back it up, sure.
11:39 Framedragger :)
11:39 diana_coman ahahaha mircea_popescu; it sounds... familiar already
11:40 mircea_popescu kek
11:40 mircea_popescu Framedragger the mystery of the black box that manages to require 59kb to store 8 x 4byte directories, ie a whooping 99.99% wastage....
11:41 mircea_popescu i guess it's technically just 99.93% huh.
11:43 Framedragger i'm sure it's justified by the other amazing parts of the fs, and when we look at the other parts we'll see glorious code that works
11:44 mircea_popescu diana_coman ^ i thought you might lulz
11:44 mircea_popescu (denouement : eulora work is pretty much EXACTLY the above two things.)
11:47 diana_coman 99.93% lulz basically, quite
11:47 mircea_popescu no i meant the epic "justified by the other amazing parts of the fs, and when we look at the other parts we'll see glorious code that works"
11:53 diana_coman I took that to be very-much-needed-sarcasm ; Framedragger knows best whether it was still innocent hope instead
11:55 mircea_popescu i think it's innocent sarcasm.
11:59 Framedragger yeah the sarcasm is probably not black enough tbh
12:07 mircea_popescu in other lulz, trilema serves the 350kb zuleika story in ~500ms. FILESYSTEM IS ABOUT AS SLOW!
12:07 mircea_popescu no wonder "cloud computing" and all the rest of the ineptorade.
12:10 asciilifeform konsoomer fs is liquishit. esp. when you entirely do NOT fit the profile of 'konsoomer', who sits and creates file and is happy is it takes less time than for the enter key to bounce back up
12:10 asciilifeform and you don't need variably-sized turds, or deletion, or defrag
12:10 asciilifeform or rebalances, etc.
12:12 mircea_popescu so "consumer fs is great if you don't use it". hey, check it out, exactly like the us army, or for that matter cia, apparently.
12:13 mircea_popescu these great papier mache roofs that work fine as roofs until it finally rains, heh.
12:13 asciilifeform the 1 fs i know of that MIGHT come close, is reiser
12:13 asciilifeform but it has own problems
12:13 mircea_popescu no wonder indian diaspora is so fucking happy. gypsy fucking culture through and tyhrough.
12:13 asciilifeform (iirc reiser is what i originally suggested for this experiment)
12:13 mircea_popescu yea
12:13 mircea_popescu anyway bbl
12:17 phf indian philosophy seems to be "if everything's fucked, just eat, fuck and do your daily puja"
12:18 asciilifeform i thought philosophy was supposed to distinguish man from rat
12:18 phf it does, hence the daily puja part
12:19 asciilifeform lol
12:20 phf "you want meaning in your life? lol. here's 50 books of meaningless rituals. that you have to perform daily. the smarter you are the more rituals you get. knock yourself out."
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12:20 asciilifeform https://archive.org/stream/HarrisonBergeron/Harrison%20Bergeron_djvu.txt << the 20th c. american take on this.
~ 24 minutes ~
12:45 asciilifeform meanwhile, in heathendom (not quite noose, but lulzy) https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-January/013473.html
12:45 asciilifeform 'Anti-transaction replay in a hardfork'. just for mircea_popescu apparently.
~ 52 minutes ~
13:37 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: yes, i move extremely slowly.
13:37 ben_vulpes did you get your number yet?
13:38 asciilifeform nope, and not likely to any time soon, realized that shitoshi left us blocks where you have to PARSE ALL TX TO SPLIT INTO TX motherfucker
13:39 asciilifeform ( i , like complete idiot, wanted to 'let's write a quick c proggy like blkcut' )
13:53 asciilifeform don't wait for me ben_vulpes
13:56 mircea_popescu phf aha. quite spurious failed civilisation(s), that continent
14:03 Framedragger asciilifeform: i wonder how these folks did it https://eprint.iacr.org/2012/584.pdf
14:03 Framedragger maybe not applicable to trb
14:04 asciilifeform Framedragger: if i had to guess -- probably by munging bdb
14:04 asciilifeform or hm, looks like they didn't
14:05 asciilifeform 'On May 13th 2012 we downloaded the full public record of this system in one of its two major forms, which consisted of about 180,000 HTML files. After parsing and processing these files, we built a graph...'
14:05 asciilifeform must've used bci or one of whatever other heathentrons existed in those days.
14:05 mircea_popescu eh bash ftw.
14:06 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: you have a bash script that parses tx ?!
14:06 mircea_popescu no, the 180k html files above
14:06 asciilifeform aah
14:06 mircea_popescu betcha it was curl and pipe
14:06 Framedragger https://github.com/behas/bitcoingraph refers to that paper. it has this tool, https://github.com/behas/bitcoingraph/blob/master/scripts/bcgraph-export , for allegedly dumping transactions for given range of blocks. that tool refers to https://github.com/behas/bitcoingraph/blob/master/bitcoingraph/bitcoingraph.py#L128 which has has a shitty python callstack but boils to
14:06 Framedragger https://github.com/behas/bitcoingraph/blob/master/bitcoingraph/blockchain.py#L45
14:06 Framedragger etc
14:07 asciilifeform Framedragger: ben_vulpes already wrote a block & tx parser, his is the closest we have right now to a usable one
14:07 Framedragger ah ah right, not bad then
14:07 asciilifeform forget about python, nobody wants to wait for two weeks for the result.
14:10 Framedragger apparently offloads export/computation to neo4j, a hipsta graph db
14:10 * Framedragger strategically retreats
14:14 mircea_popescu lol does it even work still ?
14:14 mircea_popescu problem with these hipster solutions is they're only good for about half a year.
14:14 mircea_popescu "oh, nobody uses X anymore". dude... if i wanted to accessorize i'd just read cosmo.
14:15 trinque that's why they love docker; automated jars of shit
14:16 mircea_popescu but 6 months later no longer worky.
14:16 Framedragger good for cryopreservation yes
14:16 mircea_popescu "oh it musrt be a configuration problem"
14:22 Framedragger ah trinque up'd himself just to remind me that docker is shit lol
14:22 Framedragger fair point sir
14:23 mircea_popescu lel
14:25 trinque !~step1 on the road to recovery!
14:25 jhvh1 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
14:27 BingoBoingo !~step4
14:27 jhvh1 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
14:28 Framedragger currently stealing booze from that inventory. some good old shit in there i tell you
14:29 * ben_vulpes happy to chime in on docker shit parade
14:31 Framedragger i have some good memories from using bsd jails some years ago. the core concept of isolation (fs, process, network, etc) is not bad. providing integrated interface not a bad thing, either. problem with docker is it doesn't do it in a consistent way, is too bloated, is ~proprietary +/-, and does the abstraction in a way that invites lazy people to be even more lazy and reckless.
14:31 ben_vulpes "the hft guy" wrote what i consider the canonical beating, mirrors my experience quite exactly
14:32 ben_vulpes dude *the* problem?
14:32 Framedragger ah i may have read it, did it mention DBs, too, as in "why the fuck would you put db in there"
14:32 Framedragger okok
14:32 ben_vulpes let us not mention the ever-shifting api, the utter failure of to do MOTHERFUCKING GARBAGE COLLECTION, the miserable and useless state in which it leaves disks
14:32 Framedragger shitloads of shit.
14:33 asciilifeform Framedragger: you will notice that tools which 'invites lazy people to be even more lazy and reckless' proliferate, whereas ones that penalize shaved chimps for being the worthless biowaste that they are, tend to disappear and then have to be excavated from 1km of dirt, or evaporate entirely
↖
14:33 mircea_popescu in other lolz internets! http://boards.4chan.org/lit/thread/9222977/thread-for-the-appreciation-of-mps-epic-new-novel
14:33 Framedragger (i'll just mention that for persistent data, you are supposed to use bind mounts, not internal docker storage.)
14:33 ben_vulpes the endless pile of "i would like to perform what i consider a basic operation of type X" "here have a shell script of awk and sed"
14:33 asciilifeform naggum was afaik the first to formally write down this observation, in his perl essays
14:34 ben_vulpes Framedragger: "if you care about your data integrity, our tool is not for you"
↖
14:34 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the fundamental problem with "human rights" / "our democracy" ie humanism -- if mothers empower sons to escape fatherly punishment, the incentive on the 2nd sons is to be mothers rather than fathers.
14:37 asciilifeform basic neh
14:38 mircea_popescu yeah, basic element of the pile of "lalalacanthear" aka "left"
14:40 mircea_popescu in unrelated lulz, turkish-dutch relations at historic low over dutch deciding they have the power to forbid turkish foreign minister visit the turkish consulate in holland. because hey, if it works on random pick-up artist dork, why not on turkish foreign minister.
14:40 mircea_popescu after all they're both male, right ?
14:41 mircea_popescu meanwhile the two are economically about the same size, but the dutch army would count as a half regiment of the turkish.
14:41 asciilifeform happy nato friendz
14:42 mircea_popescu myeah.
14:42 asciilifeform hey if there can be a 'latvian army' why not a dutch one.
14:42 asciilifeform let'splaypretend.
14:42 mircea_popescu is holland even in nato ?
14:43 mircea_popescu a yeah there they are, 50k contingent. lol.
14:43 asciilifeform since day0 neh
14:43 mircea_popescu halfromania.
14:43 asciilifeform '49
14:43 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i never can remember which of the ex-relevant colonial powers are not in which instruments. eu except britain, nato aparently w/o sweden, but with norway, there's something else without norway and so on
14:43 mircea_popescu buncha speshuls.
14:44 asciilifeform brits still technically in eu
14:44 asciilifeform for whoknowshowlong
14:44 mircea_popescu yet another layer of indirection.
14:44 mircea_popescu you know it's going to shit when the cheese starts widening in this manner.
14:46 * Framedragger just had some cold borscht. << amazing and recommend for those who haven't tried
14:47 Framedragger http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625589 << yeah that's true, and i suppose one could do better than encouraging this trend
14:47 a111 Logged on 2017-03-11 19:33 asciilifeform: Framedragger: you will notice that tools which 'invites lazy people to be even more lazy and reckless' proliferate, whereas ones that penalize shaved chimps for being the worthless biowaste that they are, tend to disappear and then have to be excavated from 1km of dirt, or evaporate entirely
14:47 asciilifeform in other noose, hey, hey, lbj, my CsI:Tl scintillator diode is here
14:48 mircea_popescu enjoy
14:48 Framedragger http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625594 << docker containers are *supposed* to be ephemeral. 'volatile containers' in itself is not a worthless concept. don't take it as me advocating for them, just, ftr.
14:48 a111 Logged on 2017-03-11 19:34 ben_vulpes: Framedragger: "if you care about your data integrity, our tool is not for you"
14:49 ben_vulpes you say this as though you think i'm unaware
14:50 ben_vulpes i have wrestled this pig
14:50 ben_vulpes i--dirty. it--enjoyed.
14:52 ben_vulpes but that's not all! say one wants to get into a running container where something went wrong to inspect it's state
14:53 ben_vulpes "oh, no, why would you ever want to do that? aren't you a professional opsbro? with centralized logging? containers are ephemeral, you low-dough derp! they crash and go away!"
14:53 ben_vulpes no bitch, you will give me that process that is hosed. i want to diddle it further.
14:54 ben_vulpes silicon-valley developer finger trap. can't go away soon enough.
14:54 ben_vulpes worse than mongo in that it contaminates /everything/.
14:54 Framedragger ben_vulpes: fair enough.
14:55 ben_vulpes "great for development environments" no, no it is not.
14:55 ben_vulpes it's not great for anything.
14:56 mircea_popescu it's great for otherwise idle dorks to dick about with.
14:56 mircea_popescu spinsterism. it's a thing.
14:57 Framedragger i expect folks regard the "crash and go away" as a feature - just restart it bro, etc.
14:57 Framedragger any suggestions for isolation from folks here? just cgroups/chroot?
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14:58 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625537 entirely. ther'es hordes of chicks who are taught to dick about with "google analytics". there's hordes of dicklets who docker. there's a whole population of people who in 1817 would have been making textiles by hand.
14:58 a111 Logged on 2017-03-11 17:20 phf: "you want meaning in your life? lol. here's 50 books of meaningless rituals. that you have to perform daily. the smarter you are the more rituals you get. knock yourself out."
14:58 mircea_popescu gyess what ? they still are.
14:58 mircea_popescu Framedragger honestly i know of no better than "get a box"
14:58 ben_vulpes > isolation
14:58 ben_vulpes grow a budget, get some servers, problem?
14:59 mircea_popescu the whole point of the "we'll solve problems with plows dragged by 1024 chickens" is that you then DO NOT tyurn aroundand pretend each chicken is an individual bipedal miniox.
15:00 trinque Framedragger: the fuck is "isolation" ?
15:00 ben_vulpes trinque: shibboleth of ruby where nothing gets installed cleanly
15:00 ben_vulpes this is seen as an inevitability and not a cancer somehow
15:01 Framedragger *sigh* i'll grant it that concepts are leaky and can't apply hammer to all problems etc etc; but you can't pretend that the core concept of isolation is not useful. just isolating fs, process, and network is already useful.
15:01 trinque you may not use the term "isolation" without defining it
15:01 trinque in your terms, go ahead.
15:01 ben_vulpes and then i waste a year and untold piles of shitbucks on docker
15:02 mircea_popescu i am saying the core concept of isolation is not useful. what now.
15:02 trinque yeah but he was supposed to say it!
15:03 mircea_popescu oh i see.
15:03 Framedragger a process by which one restricts the system-provided resources that a particular entity (just "process", for now, say) is exposed to; the effect of which is that the entity functions as if in a stand-alone system dedicated to its purpose
15:03 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625637 << isolation is , at MINIMUM, is when you have a rack of... isolated machines
15:03 a111 Logged on 2017-03-11 19:57 Framedragger: any suggestions for isolation from folks here? just cgroups/chroot?
15:03 mircea_popescu nonsense.
15:03 mircea_popescu your fucking x windows read the input of all other windows dude. wtf.
15:03 mircea_popescu tell me now you run without a window manager.
15:03 asciilifeform i did say separate machines neh
15:03 trinque Framedragger: and what of the myriad privilege escalations that have happened right through the cocker daemon
15:03 trinque "oh but in theory"
15:03 mircea_popescu asciilifeform we all did but he's not hearing it!
15:04 mircea_popescu trinque "socialism is not a bad concept just wasn't correctly implemented."
15:04 trinque "no this thing somebody else built defines me and I have the tshirt"
15:04 trinque aha
15:04 mircea_popescu "i did not say this before any implementation failed though -- it was fine while it wasn't obviously failing"
15:04 Framedragger "used docker" therefor "defined by tshirt" q.e.d.
15:05 mircea_popescu Framedragger more like "used docker, liked it, wants to dockerize other things" therefore defined by tshirt.
15:05 Framedragger that said, docker's 'main aim' isn't even isolation for the sake of security, so my weak point is even weaker.
15:05 trinque and it's "main aim" -> NOBODY CANCELED BASH
15:05 Framedragger but rather more to do with deployment, reproducability, ops, etc
15:05 mircea_popescu listen, your position is horrible because you said "cant say x" and then x was immediately said and ... what now ?
15:06 Framedragger hrmpf
15:06 trinque twenty year old kid says in 201x "oh I will solve the problem of system state management on unix"
15:06 trinque oh really
15:06 mircea_popescu well ? you said that without ANYTHING to back it up ? that MAKES YOU exactly defined by tshirt
15:07 mircea_popescu "can't say our democracy is a waste of everyone's time". ooops...
15:08 Framedragger i only see folks denying the concept of isolation, i maintain that it's not altogether a useless concept. disagreement in premises
15:08 mircea_popescu meanwhile in "modern computing today", http://68.media.tumblr.com/ba3119f7a99000a0d0d0660f0de315a3/tumblr_nr4qqlinuP1uvik0co1_400.gif and then http://68.media.tumblr.com/c7046a6346bca40065837e467e72cdc4/tumblr_nr4qqlinuP1uvik0co2_400.gif
15:08 mircea_popescu Framedragger actually your statement was "if you affirm X i will immediately prove you wrong".
15:08 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: rerun !
15:08 mircea_popescu oh ?
15:08 Framedragger (re. x windows, obviously one can have different ways and capabilities per particular system/process, etc)
15:08 asciilifeform i saw that pisser befoar!!
15:09 mircea_popescu Framedragger the xwindow thing was a simple example of the lowest fucking level of this. what isolation. it never yet happened.
15:09 trinque Framedragger: no, I said it's not a fucking thing on the same machine!
15:09 Framedragger trinque: re. unix, myeah, naivete, i agree
15:09 trinque I told you to define it and you sulked
15:09 mircea_popescu let's try that definition.
15:09 Framedragger well i did, but you disagreed with the definition
15:10 Framedragger don't say i 'sulked' tho.
15:10 mircea_popescu isolation is the metaphysical concept of running software independently on a machine which shares bus access among undefined peripherals and has no way to isolate cpu instruction runs.
15:10 Framedragger that said, fuck *again* i expose myself to arguing for a point i do not heartily believe in. need to reassess my shitty approach.
15:10 mircea_popescu lol k
15:11 mircea_popescu until you have net interface that somehow (how the fuck ?!) doesn't get to read/write to memory, your isolation is soup served in a calender.
15:11 mircea_popescu it may feed you, but it will sure as fuck wet your pants.
15:12 mircea_popescu ~may~ feed ~must~ wet pants.
15:12 asciilifeform Framedragger: 'isolation' in the sense you picture it, would be a useful thing if it actually worked. items like, e.g., vmware, come close, but still no cigar (you can leak bits via cache skulduggery, as discussed every six months or so in the log for past 3+ yrs, and various other ways)
15:12 ben_vulpes omfg colander
15:12 trinque yeah but calendar is hilarious too
15:13 mircea_popescu ah calender is the paper forming thing yeah.
15:13 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i think he had that one burned in rom
15:13 ben_vulpes sure but it's been going on like this for what three years how
15:13 asciilifeform lol
15:13 mircea_popescu colander.
15:13 mircea_popescu asciilifeform aha, apparently i got fixated on it
15:14 Framedragger trinque: asciilifeform: i concede your point lol. (last good one re cache was just a few days ago, too http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-06#1622509 )
15:14 a111 Logged on 2017-03-06 16:26 shinohai: https://arxiv.org/abs/1702.08719 " we extract 96% of an RSA private key from a single trace."
15:14 ben_vulpes has the republic dispelled with the illusion of the multi-user unix machine yet?
15:14 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: no moar so than the 'illusion' of the multi-directory hdd
15:14 mircea_popescu historical unix multiuser machine was purely political construct. like i could let ben_vulpes live in my vacation home, and it's "multi user" now.
15:14 trinque really it's a reaction to poverty, "lala no I really can't hear my neighbor taking a shit"
15:15 asciilifeform ^
15:16 ben_vulpes kinda surprised to not see a gf lending metaphor from mircea_popescu
15:16 asciilifeform trinque: reminds me of the multiple legends that abound re the old sov habit of hanging carpets on walls. 'we're eastern orcs, we've been doing this since the mongols' -- nope. false. 'it's because of cold cement in hruschev-era flats' -- possible. 'it was so as not to hear the neighbours fuck' -- most likely.
15:16 ben_vulpes "yes i let you use her but she's still mine no matter what show you two got up to in the bedroom"
15:16 trinque hah there's something there too
15:17 asciilifeform i keep waiting for someone to introduce this fine tradition in usa
15:17 trinque "nothing can have permanent consequence, mother loves me"
15:17 asciilifeform wall carpeting.
15:17 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes that's actually how it works neh ?
15:18 mircea_popescu asciilifeform complicated, consider most of angloworld used wallpaper + wainscotting up until the us took over the civilisation.
15:18 mircea_popescu wallcarpet may well be just advanced wallpaper.
15:18 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: i thought?
15:18 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: we had wallpaper AND carpets
15:19 asciilifeform was sop
15:19 mircea_popescu that's a little rich.
15:19 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes otherwise it'd be a little lulzy, what, dude stuffs girl in van, rapes her, it's now his through the magic of fuckjuice ?
15:20 mircea_popescu (though i suspect some segments of interwebs actually think it works thus)
15:20 ben_vulpes i don't see any disagreement here
15:20 mircea_popescu then let's create one!!1
15:20 ben_vulpes my popesculator appears to function just fine
15:26 Framedragger (turns out i *didn't* read that hft article (https://thehftguy.com/2016/11/01/docker-in-production-an-history-of-failure/) fuuuuck)
15:26 Framedragger (spoiler, wow it's a pos)
15:26 Framedragger (object of study, not article)
15:28 ben_vulpes hah oh you hadn't?
15:28 ben_vulpes yeah the thing approximately works as an uptime monitor for impoverished ustards running 20 side projects on a single aws t1.micro
15:29 ben_vulpes which BY THE WAY
15:29 ben_vulpes bezosnet is a far more capable docker than docker ever will be.
15:29 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: none of these liquishits 'work' per sane people definitions of working
15:30 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: well computers don't work per sane definitions of working
15:30 ben_vulpes what upon them possibly could
15:31 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: dunno about you, i don't buy or keep around boxes that randomly lose bits.
15:31 asciilifeform this is the elementary, 0th thing required of a comp.
15:31 ben_vulpes eh you have a ups in play as well
15:32 asciilifeform if i find that a piece of iron behaves nondeterministically in whatever way (purpose-built rngs aside) -- i throw it out.
15:32 ben_vulpes yank cord, demonstrate deterministic failure plx
15:32 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: you don't have a mains failure alarm ?!
15:32 mircea_popescu an ups is not that expensive wut
15:33 ben_vulpes nor is it a computer!
15:33 ben_vulpes > in whatever way
15:33 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: belt and suspenders, my comp worx 100% deterministically if i were to pull out the ups. disk controller battery.
15:33 asciilifeform (it gets test-drained weekly, also.)
15:34 ben_vulpes fine, fine
15:34 asciilifeform and iirc ben_vulpes works mainly on laptops. what ups does he need.
15:34 asciilifeform his thing has 6-10hr 'ups'.
15:36 ben_vulpes oh don't even get me started on the ways in which the laptops don't behave deterministically
15:36 ben_vulpes i have seen the most amazing kaleidescopic fireworks shows upon opening the machine
15:36 ben_vulpes you know, SOMETIMES
15:36 trinque ben_vulpes: recall my lenovo's RF interference lulz?
15:37 ben_vulpes trinque: oya
15:38 asciilifeform trinque: was this in the logs ?
15:39 trinque proximity to cell phone causes some video card problem that turns off the display, have to switch VTs to get it back
15:40 Framedragger hahahaha
15:40 * ben_vulpes was too kind to call trinque during business hours, lols not worth angrytrinque
15:40 trinque lol
15:40 ben_vulpes heh
15:40 asciilifeform trinque: if you can reproduce this on demand, you can make 'nsa airgap receiver', give lulztalk at some shitcon.
15:41 ben_vulpes was guaranteed way to get boy out of house though "hey i'm here" *slamming around*
15:41 trinque can reproduce it every time
15:41 * ben_vulpes kids
15:41 asciilifeform trinque: how close does the pnoje have to sit to the lappy ?
15:42 asciilifeform (presumably it is the called one, ack'ing the call, that sets it off)
15:45 mircea_popescu prolly worth a vlog
15:46 trinque within a few inches of the left side of the bottom case
15:47 mircea_popescu meanwhile at isolation research labs, http://68.media.tumblr.com/876aa6dfa81e11e3a842c7fbbf5e4d58/tumblr_o76qlgH3Tt1u5jfqoo5_1280.jpg
15:47 asciilifeform those hoses, they want to connect.
15:52 Framedragger !#s https://thehftguy.com/2016/11/14/what-is-docker-and-when-to-use-it/ << on packaging and deployment practices, decent, probably seen by some folks here
15:52 a111 0 results for "https://thehftguy.com/2016/11/14/what-is-docker-and-when-to-use-it/ << on packaging and deployment practices, decent, probably seen by some folks here", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=https%3A%2F%2Fthehftguy.com%2F2016%2F11%2F14%2Fwhat-is-docker-and-when-to-use-it%2F%20%3C%3C%20on%20packaging%20and%20deployment%20practices%2C%20decent%2C%20probably%20seen%20by%20some%20folks%20here
15:53 trinque you're not speaking to people who have not done this ~for long periods of their adult life~
15:53 trinque why teh fuck are you still trying to redeem it
15:56 trinque understand the only thing it exists is so some faggot at a web startup can make his makework job even more complicated so he can hide the fact (mostly from himself) ~that he produces nothing, and is nothing~
15:59 Framedragger trinque: not trying to redeem it any longer, at all, simmer down (but you were right.)
16:01 Framedragger (anyway, i never would have recommended to use it in critical production. but looks like it's shit for personal local machine projects, too)
16:04 ben_vulpes critical production as distinct from toy production?
16:06 ben_vulpes in other #stancelife/americana: http://68.media.tumblr.com/73d8d4a3bdd9733278acd4f0e9eeb5a0/tumblr_omnyfwNvCH1s2a69oo1_500.jpg
16:09 jurov glad I've never used docker. apparently they succeeded to reimplement oracle-corp-bezzle without backward compat, wd!
16:11 ben_vulpes jurov: you have no idea what you're missing
16:11 ben_vulpes TEH ISOLATION
16:12 jurov yes hear, they insulated the app from pebkac well
16:13 ben_vulpes that's what they sell on, but it turns out that the insulation is measured in briefcases of hundies
16:15 Framedragger @all thanks to this chat i'll now make some urgent recommendations to startup i'm involved with. maybe it's not even gonna be fucked in the ass if moves decisively away. a bit ashamed i had $opinion on $thing-not-researched in the first place.
↖
16:15 Framedragger lol.
16:15 trinque oh hey teh forum works
16:15 ben_vulpes heh now i'm imagining a research report which is just a link to log line
16:15 ben_vulpes "URGENT: SR MGMT MUST READ LOGS"
16:16 ben_vulpes "can you give us a tldr, kiddo?" "NO TLDRS ARE FOR FAGGOTS SIX MONTHS STARTS YESTERDAY"
16:16 Framedragger "if you like report, pay bitcoin to this foundation address here -> " hey maybe one day it'll even happen
16:16 Framedragger the buttsex jokes are for reading teabreaks
16:17 jurov Framedragger: experimenting really helps. i tried saltstack lightly, and the communication between master and minions was incredibly unreliable
16:17 jurov made my opinion about devops
16:18 Framedragger :). one decent part of devops is CI, i thought. it's even mentioned as possibility for trb dev http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-15#1466922
16:18 a111 Logged on 2016-05-15 15:56 mod6: what i also want to build is a CI thingy for trb
16:18 trinque I dunno who canceled bash and ssh
16:19 ben_vulpes bashops uber alles
16:19 trinque aha
16:19 Framedragger if shitloads of machines, maybe ansible?
16:19 trinque no! damn it
16:19 trinque lol
16:19 ben_vulpes Framedragger: dude start by writing some tests mebbe
16:19 trinque b-but muh hackernews
16:20 Framedragger (even hft guy doesn't have anything bad to say about ansible)
16:20 Framedragger i agree, start from tests, of course.
16:20 trinque oh good then.
16:20 Framedragger snarky trinque uses ssh and bash for 100 machine setups, too
16:20 trinque the fuck I don't
16:21 Framedragger i guess retort it "call me when you have 100 machines to adminster, kid"
16:21 ben_vulpes ^
16:21 trinque that's exactly what I do for 350
16:21 ben_vulpes Framedragger: 'tisn't as though hftbro is exhaustive banger-on of every dumb thing, just the ones he's faced with
16:21 Framedragger what can i say, too much HN for me
16:21 ben_vulpes rots the mind
16:22 jurov don't forget the part about proper management of secrets on the master and general resilience of master against attacks from clients/minions
16:22 ben_vulpes time would be better spent curating a tumblr full of naked girls and american muscle
16:22 jurov it is always incredible hairball of code, impossible to audit anyhow
16:24 ben_vulpes time-cost of audit impossible to estimate at least, and if so and security is a concern, why bother.
16:25 ben_vulpes "hey boss, this looks like something written to suck devs into paying a consulting company to fix bugs in their own software, shall we introduce it as a dependency in our stack?"
16:25 ben_vulpes "the /fuck/ are you smoking?"
16:26 jurov "let's buy oracle, they are solid"
16:26 ben_vulpes once the category of sv finger-trap is introduced, every option must demonstrate that it is /not that/.
16:27 ben_vulpes jurov: i suppose that i'm pretty lucky to have never worked under anyone who thought oracle worth including in the matrix
16:32 phf in my experience places that have oracle tend to pay best rates, and paraphrasing http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-28#1592046 when choosing a zaibatsu to pledge allegiance, choose the one that pays the most
16:32 a111 Logged on 2016-12-28 18:31 asciilifeform: 'when choosing astrologer, hire the cheapest'
16:33 phf when you're an astrologer, choose the client that pays the most? hmm, pissed opportunity there
16:34 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-24#1606292
16:34 a111 Logged on 2017-01-24 00:58 trinque: gonna DNS at all, might as well do it at the most-fed ministry
16:34 trinque gonna SQL ...
16:35 trinque as I understand it PostgreSQL is more or less "closest thing to oracle without having sold first-born per core"
16:36 phf that's another reason, why i don't for example, "hack my python with vim like a real hacker". give me the filthiest, most feature rich IDE, where i can just push spacebar to get half of my scaffolding, or whatever kids these days
↖
16:40 ben_vulpes last few times i cracked a pyject, elpy and python-mode and friends proved...resistant to providing utility
16:41 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes hey, at least she has the gap!
16:43 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20170311/#883 << i do.
16:43 scriba Logged on 2017-03-11: [21:20:45] <Framedragger> snarky trinque uses ssh and bash for 100 machine setups, too
16:44 mircea_popescu in other news : if your horse is undisciplined it's not the harness that needs improving. it's the horse.
16:47 mircea_popescu phf not a bad heuristic, except for the part where 30odd yo is kinda too old to work for a salary just like 20something yo is kinda too old to "work in pr" / http://trilema.com/2010/bani-pentru-piariste/
16:50 Framedragger #trilema is mircea_popescu's constant disappointment, then
16:55 mircea_popescu whyssat ?
16:58 Framedragger just a feeling.
17:02 mircea_popescu meanwhile over at right attitude ranch, http://68.media.tumblr.com/fa9a2501411802f10f1ddcaf88a17b7f/tumblr_o218aqlfjI1sk3xdpo1_500.gif
17:04 phf seen it
17:04 phf you've been reading logs too long, if
~ 16 minutes ~
17:20 asciilifeform phf: lol 404 ?
17:20 asciilifeform log
17:21 phf yeah, i know, i broke a deploy
17:21 phf few minutes
17:23 asciilifeform http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20170311/#870 << what is 'CI' ?
17:23 scriba Logged on 2017-03-11: [21:18:59] <Framedragger> :). one decent part of devops is CI, i thought. it's even mentioned as possibility for trb dev http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-15#1466922
17:23 Framedragger phf: not enough docker
17:24 Framedragger asciilifeform: where thing builds software and runs it tests every time a change is made. i assume you know his and are therefore asking rhetorically tho
17:24 asciilifeform http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20170311/#873 << lemme guess, a 'bashop' is a bishop who is handy with bash ?
17:24 scriba Logged on 2017-03-11: [21:19:12] <ben_vulpes> bashops uber alles
17:24 asciilifeform Framedragger: in point of fact i did not
17:24 asciilifeform believe it.
17:24 Framedragger guess that's a *good* sign
17:24 jurov asciilifeform: "continuous integrastion" - running tests on every commit
17:24 Framedragger (continuous integration is the keyword)
17:24 Framedragger its tests*
17:25 asciilifeform seems like a shit idea tho. 'oops there isn't a trb running on dulap, because ooops i broke the build'
17:25 Framedragger build environment != production environment
17:26 phf btcbase is back, with some new experimental features..
17:27 mircea_popescu asciilifeform bash ops.
17:27 asciilifeform phf: oh hey mouseovers
17:27 asciilifeform neato
17:27 mircea_popescu asciilifeform ci as such is not even a bad idea. compile and run pile of tests frequently, an expansion of "save whenever you stop typing"
17:27 Framedragger i thought mouseovers were already there? if you mean timestamps over nicks
17:28 Framedragger (obviously you need to have written those tests first...)
17:28 mircea_popescu obviously.
17:28 Framedragger not obvious to some devops bros.
17:28 asciilifeform Framedragger, mircea_popescu : i can picture it
17:29 asciilifeform would seem to rely on traditional (push/pull) versionatrons tho
17:29 mircea_popescu you can in principle even have emacs-style "pile of all purpose tests" with refinements etc
17:30 mircea_popescu but from a management perspective, it makes you write < 1k lines code 3x as slow and > 10k lines code 3x as fast.
17:36 asciilifeform http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/script.cpp?v=makefiles#0083 << holy fuq the magicnumberola never ever ends
17:38 phf ok, so experimental features on btcbase is that in memory presser now works. each patch has a "tree" link, that shows you a list of files (ones that are explicitly touched by the patch are marked as "modified"), and can look at each individual file
17:38 phf e.g. http://btcbase.org/patches/makefiles/tree/
17:38 asciilifeform oh hey!!
17:39 phf http://btcbase.org/patches/makefiles/tree/bitcoin/src/db.cpp
17:39 mircea_popescu nice
17:39 mircea_popescu asciilifeform rat droppings are never found in singlets or how'd that go.
17:40 mircea_popescu people who magicnumber magicnumber, it's just how they go.
17:40 phf http://btcbase.org/patches/makefiles/tree/bitcoin/src/script.cpp#L83 ^ eq of above
17:40 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the hilarious bit is that prb munged up the script system beyond recognition, BUT they kept this turd! merely moved it, http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/script/interpreter.cpp?v=0.10.0rc4#0256
17:41 mircea_popescu it's good!
17:41 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: unrelatedly, didja ever calculate what would happen to trb (or for that matter prb) if one were to produce a colliding txid ?
↖
17:42 mircea_popescu did anyone ever calculate anything wrt bitcoin ?
17:42 asciilifeform nobody but mircea_popescu , hence the q
17:42 phf there's also a search function that lets you search through patchset, and it shows ~first appearance~ of particular string with corresponding file/vpatch
17:42 mircea_popescu in principle it should not be possible to collide a tx.
17:42 phf (searching through a particular press doesn't work yet)
17:42 phf http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=stable&search=abc&action=searchhttp://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=stable&search=abc&action=search
17:42 phf err
17:42 phf http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=stable&search=abc&action=search
17:43 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: all you need is an x, y, x!=y, where sha256(sha256(x))==sha256(sha256(y)), and x is a valid tx
17:43 mircea_popescu well yes.
17:43 asciilifeform given that a tx is >256bits long, these pair necessarily exist.
17:44 phf and finally grapher now properly shows broken vpatches (i.e. ones that don't have all of the antecedents), for example http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=experimental all polarbeard ones, and my phf-shiva-swank are broken
17:44 mircea_popescu not so easy to find though.
17:44 asciilifeform phf: how did those end up existing ?
17:44 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i did not say that it is easy to find. but would like to know the consequences of one being found.
17:45 phf regrinds
17:45 asciilifeform and the pair -- broadcast
17:45 asciilifeform phf: i suppose the correct term would be 'orphaned' patches
17:45 phf right
17:46 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: same q can be asked re block hashes
17:46 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the consequences would likely be dire, ie, irrecoverable/invisible variant blockchain
17:46 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: that's what i ended up concluding
17:47 asciilifeform which is one of the reasons why shitoshi's nonpositional tx indexing is retarded
17:47 asciilifeform (i.e. by hash of antecedent, rather than by where-it-is-in-blockchain)
17:47 mircea_popescu i don't think at the time he did this he had a very clear idea of the mempool / blockchain tx disjunction.
17:47 phf ben_vulpes: oh hey http://btcbase.org/patches/logbot-multiple-channels seems to be broken, missing antecedent for http://btcbase.org/hash/95A0046C0AF25E21DBA310217A289D7649DD86CB89709A89931BFE318A41022FFD4BA9DC046E04DAC1B32BC5304239866BF5CA9AD59328B7DA79B1D06437E273
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17:47 mircea_popescu which explains a lot of things includingthe miner/node bug
17:48 asciilifeform ditto blocks, it is retarded for their hash to uniquely identify them for other calculations
17:48 mircea_popescu block/candidateblock. cb should be identified by hash ; block should be identified by height.
17:48 asciilifeform ^
17:49 asciilifeform just as i described for 'tx vs larval-tx' disjunction.
17:50 mircea_popescu tis been in the logs a few tiems.
17:51 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the obvious interesting sequel to the q, is what would be the first symptom of a colliding pair of tx having been fired.
17:52 mircea_popescu variant sized blocks.
17:53 asciilifeform as i currently understand, both x and y would have to be valid tx, for anything to happen (if y is invalid, it will not be mined).
17:53 mircea_popescu but it can still end up in node's idea of blockchain
17:53 asciilifeform aha.
17:53 mircea_popescu just have to put it in your story of the block
17:55 asciilifeform bifurcation of ~block~ is even more interesting picture
17:55 asciilifeform you then can have forklets ~merge~, topologically, into what appears to be 1 chain
17:55 asciilifeform but with different nodes having entirely different pictures of history, depending on which one they saw first
~ 18 minutes ~
18:14 mircea_popescu the largest problem being that as difficulty increases, it becomes more and more feasible to simply seek a hash, in comparative terms. considering the disproportion of effect (one gives you a 1/2/2/2/2/2 of 50 btc, the other fucks up the toy entirely) it's a virtual certainty that eventually it will be economically reasonable to divert resources from mining to this hash colliding.
18:14 mircea_popescu this is a fundamental and inescapable problem of usg-style hash functions. stuff like mpfhf mitigate THAT problem, but at a humongous cost.
18:15 asciilifeform there is also the possibility of not doing the idiot growing-string-of-zeroes method for difficulty growth
18:19 mircea_popescu yeah, but that fixes nothing. as long as you use hashing, you have collisions.
18:19 asciilifeform consider, for instance, instead of difficulty zeroes, you simply must match N bytes of ~previous~ block's hash.
18:19 asciilifeform and yes.
18:19 mircea_popescu that'd certainly be the right way to do it. it's not "must start with 5 0s, it's "must start with 5 bytes equal to prev block's"
18:20 mircea_popescu this alone puts a large kaibosh on shitty mining.
18:20 asciilifeform ~exactly~ N, not 'at least'
18:20 asciilifeform but yes
18:20 mircea_popescu at least.
18:20 mircea_popescu 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000004 block is valid now, too.
18:20 asciilifeform if 'at least', the degenerate case wins, i can qualify a block as the successor to itself
18:21 mircea_popescu for difficulty, yes
18:21 mircea_popescu but not for dblspends.
18:21 mircea_popescu there's more than one qualification.
18:21 asciilifeform how would you disqualify it for dblspends ?
18:21 asciilifeform if predecessor indexing is done by height, rather than hash
18:22 mircea_popescu because block 500 with hash x can't be followed by block 501 with hash x equal to itself because that block 501 would be trying to spend outputs that are already spent.
18:22 asciilifeform tru!!
18:23 mircea_popescu and in other nature loving, http://68.media.tumblr.com/ac1f2179359ad3d19124afec8b5d4f45/tumblr_o0j7n6hFvq1qc2yxpo1_1280.jpg
18:23 asciilifeform lol what is that device
18:23 asciilifeform on the pvc pipe legs
18:23 mircea_popescu a common cage
18:23 asciilifeform nono
18:23 asciilifeform behind
18:23 asciilifeform looks like american mailbox , or nazi crematorium, hybdir
18:23 asciilifeform hybrid
18:23 mircea_popescu oh. a riding fucker.
18:24 asciilifeform ah in usa for some reason these called 'sybian', after one common brand
18:24 mircea_popescu something like that
18:27 asciilifeform unrelatedly, i have combed trb src for a cap on tx input and output maxima, and found none
18:28 asciilifeform anybody know where ? or are they capped strictly by the block cap
18:30 asciilifeform ( for a certain purpose i need to calculate the max bytefootprint of a tx )
18:33 phf i believe it's not explicitly bound (i combed for limits while writing lisp btc and found none for any of the struct combinations)
18:33 phf everything's limited by how much you can stuff into a block
18:35 asciilifeform the equation i've come up with, is --assuming all scripts occupy their maximal size, 10000 bytes-- : 14+i*(10043)+(10011)*o
18:35 asciilifeform where i is the number of inputs, and o -- of outputs.
18:36 asciilifeform (and given that the scripts can be -- each -- individually anything up to 10000 -- you can have, theoretically, 1MB tx)
18:36 asciilifeform and any other size you want, below that.
18:38 asciilifeform this is pretty monstrous, it means that if you want no-heap (proper adatron) handling of tx, you gotta preallocate 1MB for EVERY SINGLE ONE when reading'em
18:39 mircea_popescu asciilifeform in theory they shouldn't be capped outside of the block size.
18:39 asciilifeform now on the other hand, it may be possible to calculate max tx size IN GIVEN block
18:39 asciilifeform because block header tells us tx count.
18:39 asciilifeform and it is possible to compute a mintx.
18:39 mircea_popescu anyway, proper adatron -> trb-i -> fixed 2/2 txn model.
18:40 phf possibly proper adatron solution would be to allocate a block and use it as operational space too
18:40 mircea_popescu ie alloocate ada-heap ?
18:40 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: if you haven't guessed, i have an incomplete one here (currently calling in my head 'nqb', 'not quite bitcoin') and was trying to adapt it to the very simple task of eating the existing blocks and parsing out the tx.
18:40 mircea_popescu no dice with that.
18:40 mircea_popescu ~profoundly retarded~ has a meaning.
18:40 asciilifeform phf: no, see, you gotta know max size to make array.
18:41 asciilifeform otherwise, as mircea_popescu said, nodice.
18:41 asciilifeform one possible solution is binning
18:41 asciilifeform ('child', 'woman', 'man', 'elephant' say)
18:42 asciilifeform fixed bottles.
18:42 asciilifeform what's the statistical distribution of tx sizes, gotta wonder
18:42 asciilifeform how many 'elephants' ?
18:42 asciilifeform (2+ standard dev, say)
18:43 mircea_popescu 800ish > 50% ; 1600 20% sort of thing
18:44 asciilifeform when didja last measure this mircea_popescu ?
18:44 mircea_popescu > 10kb tx are rare, but not inexistent. and then there's periodic massive ones.
18:44 asciilifeform massive as in, most of a block ?
18:44 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i measure it continuously, this is just distilled impression over years
18:45 mircea_popescu asciilifeform take for instance famous davout txn paying out bitbet.
18:45 mircea_popescu (which i didn't originally even think will get mined)
18:45 asciilifeform how much did that weigh
18:45 mircea_popescu lemme fish it out, pretty sure he published it
18:46 mircea_popescu http://fr.anco.is/2016/bitbet-conclusion-statement
18:46 mircea_popescu 18,5kb
18:46 asciilifeform large, but nowhere near block
18:46 mircea_popescu 1 bitcet fee.
18:46 asciilifeform lol
18:47 mircea_popescu nah. though a 999kb one existed.
18:47 asciilifeform do you happen to recall in which block?
18:47 mircea_popescu bb41a757f405890fb0f5856228e23b715702d714d59bf2b1feb70d8b2b4e3e08
18:48 mircea_popescu block 364292
18:48 asciilifeform ooh nice
18:48 asciilifeform ty mircea_popescu
18:48 mircea_popescu nofee either. miner skulldulgery.
18:48 asciilifeform pretty obvious spamola
18:49 mircea_popescu it mostly wipes a large script bs.
18:49 asciilifeform from the original spamwave
18:49 asciilifeform (when gavin et al made 'brainwallets' seeded with common dictionary words, by the megatonne)
18:50 mircea_popescu anyway, pruned 550 or so bs uxto
18:50 asciilifeform pruning ain't a thing
18:50 mircea_popescu well, they were unspent before. fucking up the prb dried shit echafaudage
18:50 ben_vulpes phf: cool thanks, will investigate
18:51 asciilifeform (there is no way to demonstrate the destruction of coin in any permanent way, so this tx will remain relevant for so long as bitcoin marches along)
18:51 mircea_popescu anyway, point being, most txn are small but long tail exists.
18:52 asciilifeform however ! looks like we ~do~ have a fixed-size element: the script.
18:52 asciilifeform these can be the fs 'block'.
18:53 asciilifeform (the 10,000 + overhead, rounded to nearest cylinder.)
18:55 * asciilifeform bbl, meat
18:56 mircea_popescu meh.
18:56 mircea_popescu script needs to be killed / specified.
↖
18:56 mircea_popescu dumbest fucking idea. "oh, instruction field in your money".
~ 37 minutes ~
19:34 mircea_popescu ahahahaha. so in further "everyone in sweden is just asking to be raped with a toilet plunger", nobel prize for literature -> bob dylan.
19:42 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1626033 << noshit! but it can only happen in trbi
19:42 a111 Logged on 2017-03-11 23:56 mircea_popescu: script needs to be killed / specified.
19:42 mircea_popescu yeah.
19:53 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i was attempting a nonretarded trb-fs.
20:02 Framedragger asciilifeform: are you doing this to prototype your 32b tx header index idea?
20:07 mircea_popescu and in "creative punishment for when she leaves the seat down" : http://68.media.tumblr.com/a3df8a95aba72f77c3dd84453d8e0201/tumblr_nit6o4adp71tgdz6ro1_400.gif
~ 41 minutes ~
20:49 ben_vulpes BingoBoingo: https://www.sec.gov/rules/sro/batsbzx/2017/34-80206.pdf
20:50 ben_vulpes > "the Commission believes that the significant markets for bitcoin are unregulated."
20:51 mircea_popescu doh.
20:53 mod6 heheh
20:54 ben_vulpes "exchanges that account for the bulk of trading are subject to little regulatory oversight and that existing know-your-customer or identity-verification measures are lax and can be easily bypassed"
20:54 mircea_popescu in other usg, http://68.media.tumblr.com/f807573edb2b0f7a29f5ff72d97f83c1/tumblr_nhoc41C1Bp1r539hzo1_1280.jpg
20:54 ben_vulpes "because we've made it impractical to trade the underlying, nobody trades the underlying on our wholly-owned venues"
20:54 mircea_popescu aha.
20:55 mod6 <+ben_vulpes> bashops uber alles << yeah, CI to mean doesn't mean "must use current devop-isms". we could build our own automated toolset. np.
20:55 ben_vulpes "daily trade volume is only a small volume of total bitcoin mined"
20:55 mod6 *to me doesn't mean
20:55 ben_vulpes "in stark contrast to gold, where daily trade volume exceeds total mined by several orders of magnitude"
20:56 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes isn't all teh butthurt delicious though ? "we are very upset that apparently we don't matter ; also we won't mention mp's warning about all this because then it won't burn so much."
20:56 mircea_popescu mod6 right you are. in fact it's pretty much what you['ve been doing.
20:57 ben_vulpes to jump over to mod6's thread for half a second, both he and i have our own suite of automated tests
20:57 ben_vulpes suites*
20:57 ben_vulpes er
20:57 ben_vulpes for v i suppose, nevermind.
20:57 mircea_popescu also wtf are they on about, 3600 bitcoin mined a day, 10-15k traded a day (on fiatola outlets), 30-50k total.
20:57 mircea_popescu that's a degree of magnitude.
20:58 ben_vulpes total outstanding, not traded over daily mining vol
20:58 mircea_popescu durr.
20:58 mod6 in fantasy land, you can make up reality as you go. np.
20:58 ben_vulpes anyways, having thought about "testing" trb, i am interested to hear what kinds of tests framedragger would write
↖
20:58 mircea_popescu !~ticker
20:58 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 1180.9, Best ask: 1181.0, Bid-ask spread: 0.10000, Last trade: 1181.0, 24 hour volume: 27111.34861041, 24 hour low: 1129.0, 24 hour high: 1196.6, 24 hour vwap: None
20:59 mod6 ben_vulpes' is making some super cool v automated tests as well. there is a bit of overlap, but perhaps one day, his will become the defacto-standard tests. mine are a bit brittle to say the least.
20:59 ben_vulpes i went so far as to set up a solipsistic test net before bumping into the dumb-as-rocks "needs 2 nodes in order to mine" shit
21:00 ben_vulpes so before even thinking about CI the testing strategy needs some actual thought, planning, and likely at least one patch. maybe more.
21:01 mircea_popescu overlap is not badf either.
21:02 mircea_popescu but yeah, ben_vulpes has point.
21:04 ben_vulpes one quickly starts thinking thoughts like "verify whole chain for every vpatch"
21:04 ben_vulpes "sync from net for every vpatch"
21:05 ben_vulpes or possibly recently "sync from on-host, known-fast node for every vpatch"
21:06 ben_vulpes probably could be done on a machine costing ~2btc/yr
21:06 ben_vulpes entirely baseless estimate
21:07 ben_vulpes (well, not entirely baseless, i've put a modicum of thought into the topic and have been pricing a new box to boot)
21:09 mircea_popescu prolly should churn the chain as a test yeh. also a tx fuzzer would be great in general.
21:10 ben_vulpes what means "tx fuzzer" to mp?
21:10 ben_vulpes if afl is not a lurking piece of garbage, plugging trb into that might yield some interesting strange.
21:15 mircea_popescu it means you feed a trb to be tested randomly generated "txn"
21:15 mircea_popescu at the very least try see what happens in the obvious cases, doublespend, bad block etc.
21:22 ben_vulpes yup
21:23 ben_vulpes should even be possible to test reorg behavior!
21:23 mircea_popescu signatures don't match, scripts are bad, inputs are bad, outputs are too long, on it goes
21:23 mircea_popescu prolly but that's finnickyer. unless of course we bother to create 3rd item here, which would be a test chain.
21:23 mircea_popescu to be fed to node to be tested from block 1 onwards, can set own difficulty then.
21:25 ben_vulpes hey, if genesis is programmable, can generate chains for testing on the fly
↖
21:26 ben_vulpes can even diddle trb-observed clock to get difficulty curve to do whatever
21:27 ben_vulpes i hope the point is coming through, though, that 'CI' is utterly irrelevant in the face of the scope of systems choreography demanded and actual tests to be written
21:28 mircea_popescu yeah
21:28 mircea_popescu well, i said it's not even a bad idea back then.
21:39 ben_vulpes unrelolted: https://heatst.com/tech/he-will-not-divide-us-livestream-placed-in-middle-of-nowhere-but-4chan-still-found-way-to-troll-it/
↖
21:40 mircea_popescu "anachronistic message board" ?
21:40 * mircea_popescu lost interest.
21:48 asciilifeform liquishit that tests to spec is still liquishit.
21:49 asciilifeform per dijkstra's 'tests reveal presence of bugs, but never their absence'
↖
21:49 mircea_popescu this is no kind of argument against having test suite.
21:50 asciilifeform not argument against; but for realistic expectations.
21:50 mircea_popescu there aren't any expectations.
21:51 asciilifeform engineering without expectations is not detectably different from taking a shit and other excretory exertions
21:52 asciilifeform 'oh i'll grunt and -- come what may !'
21:53 asciilifeform y'know, as in http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-08#1623271
21:53 a111 Logged on 2017-03-08 18:29 mircea_popescu: which is why all the impudent cuntlets want to be "in a creative career" aka hallucinated non-science. if irresponsible activity bereft of verification, ie, the antithesis of science, then their imposture has some space
21:53 mircea_popescu this is nosnense.
21:54 mircea_popescu engineering is specifically the practice of eliminating expectations from human behaviour. it is the hopeless adventure.
21:54 asciilifeform failure is not a defined concept absent expectations.
21:55 asciilifeform bridge holds 100 tanks indefinitely, or 500 for 30 minutes. is an expectation.
21:55 mircea_popescu not so. these are the materials, this is thereby the bridge.
21:55 asciilifeform that's called an african pile of shit, or, charitably, 'junkyard wars' contest. not engineering.
21:55 mircea_popescu nope.
21:56 mircea_popescu (materials, here, means : the river ; the metal ; the tanks)
21:56 mircea_popescu there's no expectation involved. for these tanks on this river out of this metal this is the bridge.
21:56 mircea_popescu there aren't two. this one.
21:56 mircea_popescu there's no expectation involved whatever.
21:57 asciilifeform shifting from a conceptual to a present 'this is the bridge you have, motherfuckers, drive' is dirty thinking.
21:58 asciilifeform at the design stage, there is an expectation, engineer knows in advance that if the thing buckles under any number of tanks that its surface might contain: stalin will shoot him
21:58 mircea_popescu no serious engineer thinks or cares about this
21:59 asciilifeform what does 'serious engineer' even mean, if not 'cares about this'
21:59 mircea_popescu "not cares about this"
21:59 mircea_popescu cares about this -> straight to alchemist corner
21:59 asciilifeform then mircea_popescu's 'serious engineer' includes docker rat
22:00 mircea_popescu no, because docker rat fails to correctly pile up his materials.
22:00 asciilifeform why does he fail, if not from refusing to agree to a verifiable expectation of correct function ?
22:01 asciilifeform fails because did not pray to vishnu correctly ?
22:01 mircea_popescu because he did not pile up all his materials.
22:02 * asciilifeform screws in brand-new gas mask canister
22:02 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: say what means 'pile up all his materials' plox
22:05 mircea_popescu for the docker guy ? make pile of tanks (what he's engineering for) ; river (what he's engineering against) ; metal (what he's engineering with).
22:05 mircea_popescu people are utterly resistent to doing this, principally because hopemechanism/bad engineers.
22:05 mircea_popescu plenty of examples scattered in the logs, but anyway.
22:07 asciilifeform in what sense does 'pile' in this construction not equal to what other folx mean when they say 'plan' ?
22:07 asciilifeform let's take concrete example,
22:07 mircea_popescu ok
22:07 asciilifeform asciilifeform, drawing up FUCKGOATS, had to pick what voltage regulator to use, they come in wide variety of max & peak voltage and current ratings
22:08 asciilifeform the choice is constrained by the peak & avg. drains of the other components
22:08 mircea_popescu ok
22:08 asciilifeform at no point did asciilifeform make a physical 'pile' to determine the correct answer, it was arrived at on paper, with pen
22:08 asciilifeform where is then the 'pile' ?
22:08 mircea_popescu that's a pile alright.
22:09 mircea_popescu the meaning of pile is that they are defined, specified, circumscribed.
22:09 asciilifeform but not 'an expectation.' ? why the word substitution .
22:09 mircea_popescu docker dude dun do that.
22:09 mircea_popescu there's no expectation involved.
22:09 asciilifeform the expectation is that the capacity of the reg is > the current drain. of the floor in a house > the pianos. etc
22:09 mircea_popescu this is no expectation.
22:10 mircea_popescu what interval do you wait ?
22:10 asciilifeform well in the particular example given, failure would have become apparent within a millisecond or so
22:10 asciilifeform and you could smell it.
22:10 mircea_popescu expectation is the equivalent of the continuous tense, you may have expectations out of your household. but no expectations are involved in fuckgoats. if the current is what it was specified it'll work and if not it will burn. what do you ~expect~ ?
22:11 asciilifeform you expect the floor to stay put when the piano is brought into the house.
22:11 mircea_popescu nope.
↖
22:11 mircea_popescu if it will or if it won't, either way.
22:11 asciilifeform and of the gadget, to shit forth rngolade , rather than malodorously combusting
22:11 mircea_popescu expect less live longer.
22:12 mircea_popescu i expect girl to shave. ie, tomorrow. i don't expect anything out of the floor.
22:12 asciilifeform mircea_popescu seems to think that 'expect' means 'unfoundedly expect'
22:12 mircea_popescu no, it means actual expect. something you want and will take time.
22:12 mircea_popescu "we're expecting her to deliver my child in june". that's expect.
22:13 asciilifeform mircea_popescu would not structure phrase, e.g., 'when i aim the rifle and pull trigger i expect to hit the target' ?
22:13 mircea_popescu sure.
22:14 mircea_popescu but i wouldn't say "when i pull trigger i expect round to discharge". because i don't.
22:14 asciilifeform but not 'i draw up a house and expect that the floor will hold my 48 pianos' ?
22:14 mircea_popescu not.
22:14 asciilifeform how does aiming the rifle differ from drawing up a house, other than time parameter ?
22:15 mircea_popescu cuz im involved in the aiming neh
22:15 asciilifeform i suspect that we've unearthed the point of disagreement here
22:16 asciilifeform mircea_popescu does not picture building the house with own hands
22:16 mircea_popescu why not ?
22:16 asciilifeform or so i read from 'im involved in the aiming'
22:16 asciilifeform presumably you could just as readily be involved in the felling of trees, mixing of cement, whatever else goes into building house.
22:17 mircea_popescu i didn't imagine that's what you mean.
22:17 mircea_popescu yes, if you meant "maybe alf typos the code and doesn't notice" then yes, expect.
22:18 mircea_popescu how this would work -- i've no idea, but technically i suppose it's there.
22:18 asciilifeform y'know, i could write an eliza that 'wins' arguments this way
22:18 mircea_popescu myeah. i expect you could.
22:18 asciilifeform can i use 'i didn't imagine that's what you mean' in the phrase table, or has mircea_popescu trademarked !
22:19 mircea_popescu seriously though, trivial failure mode. compiler wil lcomplain if nothing else.
22:19 asciilifeform butno srsly i have nfi what mircea_popescu meant here.
22:20 mircea_popescu let's insist.
22:20 asciilifeform aite, i'm all ears
22:21 asciilifeform how does aiming the rifle differ, other than timewise, from designing a house that you then build with own hands
22:22 mircea_popescu mp goes hunting. if mp goes hunting without a rifle and bullets, mp has fucked up the tanks part of engineering. if mp goes hunting in unknown martian planet, ends up eaten by hunter-eater, mp has fucked up river part of engineering. if mp goes hunting in zoo, shoots english bobby through overpenetration, mp has fucked up tanks part of engineering. if mp goes hunting in hunting place and hunts quarry but misses his shot, tech
22:22 mircea_popescu nical alf-raised problem, mp still hunter.
22:22 mircea_popescu same exact thing with the docker people -- if theior problem was that they wrote spr1ntf it'd be one thing
22:22 mircea_popescu their problem, however, is that they have nfi what they're doing, like that dog driving van on trilema.
22:23 asciilifeform aaaah we had this thread!!
22:23 mircea_popescu prolly.
22:23 asciilifeform !#s матчасть
22:23 a111 4 results for "матчасть", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C
22:23 asciilifeform ^ what mircea_popescu referred to as 'tanks part'
22:23 asciilifeform we have a w0rd for it
22:23 mircea_popescu well i fucked it up, said tanks twice. first one is metals.
22:24 mircea_popescu but yes, it's not a novel thought by any means.
22:25 asciilifeform literally, 'material part', that is, of the immutable physical pieces of a problem.
22:25 mircea_popescu aha
22:26 asciilifeform http://lurkmore.so/images/7/78/Matchast%27.JPG << see also!
22:26 asciilifeform ^ is this funny only to asciilifeform
22:27 mircea_popescu lol no, it's kinda funny
22:39 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> signatures don't match, scripts are bad, inputs are bad, outputs are too long, on it goes << yeah, exactly. eventually coverage like this is a must. eventually.
22:44 mircea_popescu yea
22:51 asciilifeform http://lurkmore.so/images/b/b9/Kim_chen_zavod.jpg << in other lelz
22:56 mod6 heheh.
22:56 * mod6 goes to read about Zuleika
23:04 * mircea_popescu is curious what peeps think.
23:07 * danielpbarron likes it so far
~ 29 minutes ~
23:37 asciilifeform sed -n -e 's/^.*Ping timeout: //p' trilema.log | sort | uniq | cut -c1-3 | tr '\n' ' '
23:37 asciilifeform 240 244 245 246 248 249 250 251 252 255 256 257 258 260 264 265 268 272 273 276
23:37 asciilifeform whywhywhy.
23:37 asciilifeform why never 239
23:37 asciilifeform or 278 !!!
23:37 asciilifeform tell me o wise men.
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