Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-08-25 | 2016-08-27 → ↓
00:01 PeterL too busy staring at their phones to touch each other, no touching means no sex
00:03 PeterL what do you consider the age cutoff for millenials? Or is it a frame of mind rather than a specific age range?
00:07 deedbot http://danielpbarron.com/2016/he-has-an-unclean-spirit/ << Daniel P. Barron - He has an unclean spirit.
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00:09 BingoBoingo No idea
~ 36 minutes ~
00:45 mircea_popescu phf word.
00:46 davout my new address for those who'll want to visit http://i.imgur.com/fSyFNEM.jpg
~ 22 minutes ~
01:09 BingoBoingo nice davout
01:16 felipelalli mircea_popescu: znc running in a fucking rubish vps. any problem please swear at me again.
~ 3 hours 47 minutes ~
05:04 jurov ;;later tell PeterL run configure as: CFLAGS=-fexceptions CXXFLAGS=-fexceptions ./configure
05:04 gribble The operation succeeded.
05:04 jurov ^ since there's no gribble in #eulora
~ 3 hours 42 minutes ~
08:47 Framedragger http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529496 << just curious - does the gossip spec as it is place any trust in ip addresses? this iirc was one of the points criticized by asciilifeform, i would think it to be a valid one. sorry if this, too, was extensively discussed in the logs.
08:47 a111 Logged on 2016-08-26 01:10 phf: adlai: i think gossip spec is fine, just nobody took it to release. asciilifeform has significant changes to the spec, but if you ignore those you can still build a working implementation. in fact, unless you're ascii, i think it's better to ignore further discussion and just stick to what mp wrote. i also think it's one of those ideas you don't want nailed down at protocol level. mine for example slings gpg packets
08:47 phf it doesn't place any ~trust~ in ip addresses
08:48 phf asciilifeform's objections was that gossipd relies on ip addresses at all
08:48 phf the argument is that technology needs to be entirely routing agnostic, where's now you think in terms of (afair) mappings between keys and addresses
08:49 Framedragger that can be construed as trust, but yeah ok.
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08:49 phf oh ffs
08:50 Framedragger i won't argue the point, sorry for any frustration caused. the thing i have in mind is probably not the "current spec" anyway!
08:50 phf it can be construed as trust if you don't anything beyond what i said, so i also said that there's no trust. of course that's only my interpretation and asciilifeform can provide his own
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08:53 Framedragger ..iirc one of the original ideas was to "pass around ip addresses" as things bound to some nick/identity; there is a trust component here; but i'm sure it's evolved since then, etc etc.
08:54 phf that's a pretty useless interpretation of trust
08:55 phf if i tell you "go to such and such place and then once you're there do another validation" you don't have to trust that "such and such place" is valid purely by being there
08:56 Framedragger ..however, it is possible to get drowned in sibyl nodes. but, i get your point.
09:04 phf i don't think there's a solution to drowned in sibyl's in general. there's a cost to validating counterparty (which is continuous in case of gossipd, there's no "validate the ip, and then trust it" which is what i mean by "no trust in ip"), which can be exploited by attacker.
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09:09 Framedragger true, good point of course.
09:13 phf come to think of it sybil is not the right word in this case, on application level there's no psuedonymity and you only talk to people in wot. on transport level an attacker can construct a valid looking (struct layout wise) pgp packet, which in my naive spec implementation is handed over to gnupg. now you have a bunch of potential attack vectors here, but assuming there's no memory attacks in gnupg, race conditions in gpgme,
09:13 phf etc. you're only dealing with cost of validation. (which could be brought down by having own crypto)
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~ 20 minutes ~
09:34 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529651 << ~tcp~ is evil, and i will kill it with my own hands. at least in the sense where i killed, e.g., git.
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09:34 a111 Logged on 2016-08-26 12:50 phf: it can be construed as trust if you don't anything beyond what i said, so i also said that there's no trust. of course that's only my interpretation and asciilifeform can provide his own
09:34 asciilifeform tcp is evil, fundamentally because it violates the 'NEVER something-for-nothing-to-all-comers-FUCKOFFRANDOS' principle.
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09:34 asciilifeform hence the existence of such a thing as a syn flood.
09:35 asciilifeform it is ALSO evil because it sends anything whatsoever in the cleartext (sequence number, for instance, and RESET)
09:35 asciilifeform usg can reset any and all tcp connections whenever it feels like it.
09:35 asciilifeform as happens many times every day on our trb nodes.
09:36 asciilifeform it can also inject crapolade, into any tcp stream whatsoever. this is not a hypothetical, the actual mechanism that is actually used was recently discovered.
09:37 asciilifeform but it was ~always~ possible, from day1 of tcp, and this is evident to anyone with a copy of, e.g, richard stevens's 'tcp/ip illustrated'.
09:37 asciilifeform to kindergarten pupils.
09:37 phf yeah it's a shitty transport, that doesn't contradict anything i said though
09:38 asciilifeform the cost of validation in a single-packet-authenticating protocol where you crunch the numbers at line speed is effectively 0.
09:39 asciilifeform and there are no sybils, even as a theoretical item, in a correct gossiptron - every receiver knows exactly who (pubkey-wise) has any business transmitting to it, and rejects packet that is malformed, replayed, or signed with ANY other key, in constant time.
09:39 phf that's also what i said
09:40 phf but, without proper crypto cost of packet authentication is not 0
09:40 asciilifeform likewise a gossip node ought never to rely on a single entry point. and certainly not on a single ~published~ entry point.
09:40 asciilifeform phf: correct.
09:40 phf current spec doesn't do that
09:41 asciilifeform current spec is imho only worth something as a starting point.
09:41 asciilifeform (and i will point out that i started on my concept long before mircea_popescu wrote it.)
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09:42 asciilifeform mircea_popescu, as often happens, had correct idea, but was not aware of the sheer rot of the available building blocks.
09:42 phf well, since that's never been published we can't even have meaningful conversations about it :p
09:43 asciilifeform phf: the handful of interesting aspects (single-packet friend-or-foe, no tcp) were outlined here.
09:43 phf but that's a very minor detail of the spec!
09:43 asciilifeform i do not regard it as minor.
09:44 asciilifeform nor the 'order of packets does ~not matter' aspect.
09:44 asciilifeform (fuck sequence numbers. instead, 'raptor code'.)
09:44 phf which layer are we talking here?
09:44 asciilifeform bottom.
09:45 asciilifeform which - yes - matters, and no, cannot be replaced later.
09:45 phf so then it's not even about gossip, it's about "lets have a replacement for tcp"
09:45 asciilifeform it is about gossip.
09:45 asciilifeform as an only sane possible replacement for tcp.
09:45 asciilifeform these are not separable.
09:46 phf as a final product -- not, but as a teaching tool?
09:46 asciilifeform as a teaching tool, hearts and livers are separable.
09:46 asciilifeform in actual practice, not.
09:46 phf it's like you're now on the other side in the gabriel_laddel mcclim debate
09:47 asciilifeform mno.
09:47 asciilifeform i am on same side as i've been since '07
09:47 asciilifeform FOUNDATIONS FIRST
09:47 asciilifeform they matter.
09:47 asciilifeform and cannot be retro-corrected.
09:47 phf well, then you were arguing opposite point in the mcclim conversation
09:47 asciilifeform hm?
09:47 asciilifeform link ?
09:50 asciilifeform i dun even recall a debate. there was gabriel_laddel proposing to build hybrid of bulldog and rhino, 'lisp machine with linux', a mengelian atrocity with no future, because a foundation cannot be corrected any more than one can un-drop a baby.
09:51 phf different kind of foundations, mcclim clx backend. he was saying lets replace it wholesale with a framebuffer renderer. i was arguing that it's better to cleanup clx first that'll make framebuffer renderer easier. i misunderstood your position then. i thought you were agreeing, but i suppose your position was that there's no point in replacing x with lesser alternative at all
09:53 phf there needs to be a feature in logs where you only render a subset of nicks
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09:53 phf ..
09:54 thestringpuller $s interlisp
09:54 a111 9 results for "interlisp", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=interlisp
09:56 phf asciilifeform: ok i misundestood your position in mcclim debate
09:56 phf (i reread the log)
10:03 asciilifeform phf: my published positions re x11 concern the machines ~i presently use~
10:03 asciilifeform i.e. i have 0 interest in 'like x11 but without network pipe'
10:04 asciilifeform and regard anyone who advocates it as a procrustes.
10:04 phf asciilifeform: we're in agreement on that one
10:04 asciilifeform a great many x11 proggies i use run on remote machines. and i have NO intention of partaking in the 'own one computer' horseshit.
10:05 * asciilifeform bbl, fixing some plumbing.
10:14 mircea_popescu jurov now there is : http://logs.minigame.bz/2016-08-26.log.html#t14:13:32
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10:15 phf asciilifeform: going back to gossip conversation, my issue is that the gossip you talk about exists exclusively in your head, where's mp got a spec. there are aspects of gossip functionality that can be explored with current spec despite the underlying tcp transport. and like i said broken transport doesn't invalidate the application functionality. it will leak in practice through tcp shenanigans, but that's the nature of this
10:15 phf particular transport. never the less when the conversation about current spec comes in you are eager to point out how spec is useless. it's a significant effort to drone you out long enough to actually attempt the implementation, and since in my experience attempting the implementation is a significant step in grokking, i think you repeating the same point over and over again actually lowers overall snr.
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10:15 mircea_popescu shinohai hook it into some api (preferably not bc.info) to do ;;tslb ;;bc,stats etc, it can replace gribble here.
10:15 shinohai iit already has this mircea_popescu
10:15 mircea_popescu demonstrate ?
10:17 mircea_popescu win.
10:17 thestringpuller mircea_popescu: "The beta-males also wish to be alpha, but for whatever reason they are realistically incapable of it, so they must accept the role of trying to impregnate a female when she is fertile by keeping her away from an alpha-male." interesting perspective.
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10:17 mircea_popescu shinohai join it plox
10:17 mircea_popescu thestringpuller where's that from ?
10:18 thestringpuller mircea_popescu: Some chick ranting on Steemit.
10:18 * thestringpuller super bored in the coal mine today.
10:19 shinohai why do you even read that drivel ?
10:19 shinohai lol
10:19 mircea_popescu well, i imagine because chix
10:19 shinohai better chix on trilema
10:19 shinohai :D
10:20 mircea_popescu shinohai gotta register it ; -ChanServ- TRS80` is not registered.
10:20 shinohai mircea_popescu: it does not have gribble wot
10:20 mircea_popescu no i mean with nickserv
10:20 mircea_popescu i can't +V it otherwise
10:21 shinohai ok gimmie a bit to sign in, i never bothered to register it :/
10:21 mircea_popescu no rush.
10:21 thestringpuller "I see the devolution of Western culture upon us because the males have been emasculated with a combination of societal enforcement of child support payments along with the absolute right of the female to divorce taking all the financial support while remaining promiscuous." << actually i have no idea what gender this person is, but makes great points.
10:21 trinque shinohai wrote an eval-bot for BASIC?
10:21 trinque :D
10:21 shinohai EXTENDED colour basic! :D
10:22 trinque aw yeah
10:22 trinque thestringpuller: that shit about "males *have been* emasculated" is nonsense
10:23 trinque exactly the perspective of this elliot guy
10:23 trinque damn, what a culturally relevant piece.
10:25 mircea_popescu trinque ironically, for a long time in [the very repressive, and otherwise bizarre] austro-hungarian society, little girls thought they were castrated. literally, that ancient trick of "i stole your nose" that amuses 3yos ; they thought someone took their penis, which is why they don't look like boys.
10:25 trinque lol!
10:25 mircea_popescu the subjective experience of loss and inadequacy is a huge underground ocean comprising most of the human bejaviour known as art.
10:26 mircea_popescu thestringpuller a "great point" in the sense of it being repeated a lot online. talk to a divorce lawyer sometime, this "absolute right to divorce" does not work that way in practice.
10:27 mircea_popescu for that matter, refer to recent republican record : rando whore divorcing businessman recently got less than 1% of his net worth, and then the judge ridiculed her and cut her loot by 2/3 on apeal.
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10:28 mircea_popescu this, in the uk, by all accounts a worse shithole than the us.
10:28 mircea_popescu including because thousands of little queen's own cunts, aged six to sixteen, openly preferred to be manhandled by pakis rather than commune with english mainstream society.
10:30 thestringpuller First: "Eighteen years, eighteen years / She got one of your kids, got you for eighteen years / I know somebody paying child support for one of his kids / His baby mama car and crib is bigger than his"
10:30 thestringpuller Which is 90% of niggas who impregnate a gold digger no matter how much money they eventually make.
10:30 thestringpuller so: "Holla, "We want prenup! We want prenup!" (Yeah!)"
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10:30 trinque qed
10:31 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529630 << i confess the sufferances of young werther are always in my mind reading him. "why like this and not like that ?"
10:31 a111 Logged on 2016-08-26 03:53 phf: he's like an incredibly dull, millenial take on a gothic hero, a modern day maldoror
10:31 mircea_popescu thestringpuller black society is a bad model for just about anything.
10:32 thestringpuller oh i kno. unfortunately for america, it's "pop culture" like the sitcom now. teen pregnancies ain't just for black folk no mo'
10:32 mircea_popescu but the LYRICS they put out are unrelated in any case. you know literature generally lies, yes ?
10:33 mircea_popescu teen pregnancies were traditionally a white thing. this never ever changed ; except for the weirdo new york elliots (they prefer to call themselves liberals) who thought it did because they stopped looking briefly.
10:33 thestringpuller oh man i've been lied to my whole life! I still have my abstinence pledge too!
10:33 mircea_popescu go to alabama, find more 35 yo grandmothers than you can count.
10:33 phf mircea_popescu: did werther turn to evil?
10:33 thestringpuller "ur at greater risk lil' stringpuller cuz ur black"
10:34 mircea_popescu phf define evil
10:34 mircea_popescu he wrote faust.
10:34 phf as a gothic stance, "if society rejects me, i will now serve the utmost evil!"
10:36 mircea_popescu http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/2407/pg2407.txt << judge for self. it's tiny, iirc he wrote it in two weeks
10:37 mircea_popescu phf that's not what mr elliot said though.
10:37 mircea_popescu he has no conception of evil.
10:38 mircea_popescu thestringpuller check out teh institutional racisms.
10:38 phf i think that's the funny bit about roger whatshisname, he gets alienated from society and decides to become a scourge, but him and his definition of malice are so dull, it's like a parody of a gothic character
10:38 mircea_popescu "i'm not at greater risk because i'm black, i'm at greater risk because your mother's a whore."
10:39 mircea_popescu phf he doesn't even specifically want to become a scourge. he wants to "they should be punished" ; and "to become a dictator". essentially, like any good liberal/socialist, he JUST WANTS THE STATE TO.
10:40 mircea_popescu his mother should arrange him better playdates through whoring out to lucas or whoever's rich and give him money / hire hookers.
10:41 mircea_popescu (ironically, this arrangement has more historical exposure than everything that passes for "modern democracy". it's both how the ottoman empire worked ; as well as how the jews did middle east for five centuries.)
10:41 mircea_popescu ie, it is traditional, in the sense of "traditional marriage" traditional.
10:44 mircea_popescu phf also, let me register with you my displeasure at you abusing "gothic". it really dun mean what lj thinks it means.
10:46 phf i don't think i meant it in lj sense. i was thinking maldoror specifically, he said something like that in the first chapter
10:47 mircea_popescu de lautreamont calls himself "a gothich character" ?
10:48 mircea_popescu or are you just importing wikitardisms, "gothic genre" et all.
10:49 phf i get it
10:50 mircea_popescu no i shall insist, because it's fucking annoying. buncha losers. so what, walpole thinks it's ok to tongue in cheek "a gothic novel" ? at the time the word had a meaning, and yes it is a certain forlorn grandiosity et all.
10:50 mircea_popescu then the muricans come and take the joke literally.
10:52 mircea_popescu Фантастический мир русской романтической повести < there we go! teh russians even agree omg im so impressed.
10:53 phf oh ffs, you are right it is a wikipedism, since i was convinced that it was gothic genre in su school also
10:53 mircea_popescu keep teh faith pure brother! and guard from teh corruptors!
10:54 phf but but i didn't mean gothic straight here, i think that maldoror specifically is already a parody
10:54 mircea_popescu i dunno, wasn't the guy from like argentina ?
10:54 mircea_popescu they're incapable of parody.
10:54 phf yeah he grew up in africa maybe?
10:55 phf Uruguay according to wikipedia
10:55 mircea_popescu uh.
10:55 mircea_popescu this must be one of those cases where "borders changed so historical nationalities changed"
10:56 mircea_popescu wasn't he from like 1800 ? what fucking uruguay.
10:57 phf he was late 19th century
10:59 mircea_popescu ok now i gotta check this
11:01 phf well, i know that lautreamont didn't consider maldoror his serious novel (he died young though, so i think it was his only output, plus some poetry) and it was explicitly inspired by .. romantic literature of the time. considering how over the top nihilist it is, i assumed that it was a joke
11:01 mircea_popescu published 1868. banda oriental was buenos aires congress 1800-1815, kingdom of brazil 1915-1940, rosas till 49 (and check out the guerra grande btw alf, dude totally beat anglo-french coallition through exhaustion, forced them intio humiliatory peace treaty) and then brazil til 1900 or such
11:02 mircea_popescu "he was a romanian writer from vojvodina (a serb land) in the kingdom of hungary, part of the empire" sorta deal, i guess.
11:05 phf well, unless you mean that his childhood abroad is what made him, he was still a frenchman born in a consulate, and he went back to Paris when he was young
11:07 mircea_popescu hey, you said it!
11:08 mircea_popescu anyway, it was a lulzy situation, montevideo was "besieged" for like a decade, they (mostly foreign merchants) ended up calling out a foreign legion, garibaldi showed up...
11:08 mircea_popescu pretty good place to grow up i dun dispute.
11:19 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529722 << nothing i wrote ought to discourage folks from pissing on the electric fence.
11:19 a111 Logged on 2016-08-26 14:15 phf: particular transport. never the less when the conversation about current spec comes in you are eager to point out how spec is useless. it's a significant effort to drone you out long enough to actually attempt the implementation, and since in my experience attempting the implementation is a significant step in grokking, i think you repeating the same point over and over again actually lowers overall snr.
11:19 asciilifeform but they ought not to complain when 'my tcp connections are blackholing' or 'someone derived my rsa privkey using known-ciphertext attacks' etc.
11:20 asciilifeform ~everyone here, phf, asciilifeform, mircea_popescu, et al, has his own chamber of unreleased horrors. this is right and proper.
11:21 asciilifeform *chosen-ciphertext
11:22 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529727 << afaik this is definitionally true, at least in the zoological world where the terms originated
11:22 a111 Logged on 2016-08-26 14:17 thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: "The beta-males also wish to be alpha, but for whatever reason they are realistically incapable of it, so they must accept the role of trying to impregnate a female when she is fertile by keeping her away from an alpha-male." interesting perspective.
11:22 mircea_popescu it is, yes.
11:23 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529755 << and buffett pays ~0 tax, aha
11:23 a111 Logged on 2016-08-26 14:27 mircea_popescu: for that matter, refer to recent republican record : rando whore divorcing businessman recently got less than 1% of his net worth, and then the judge ridiculed her and cut her loot by 2/3 on apeal.
11:23 asciilifeform divorced engineers - live on catfood.
11:24 asciilifeform in usaschwitz.
11:24 mircea_popescu engineers have 0 business getting married.
11:24 phf asciilifeform: so far we don't have a complaining problem though
11:24 asciilifeform phf: ~no one every does, until it is far too late.
11:24 asciilifeform c lang, for instance, was a 'great thing', until it wasn't.
11:25 asciilifeform and we are living with pdp arch long past its expiration date.
11:25 phf but we don't even have an equivalent of "great thing until it wasn't" produced by tmsr
11:25 asciilifeform produced wholesale - no. gpg would probably be the closest to this, to date.
11:25 asciilifeform (not produced here, naturally, but reignited from ashes)
11:26 phf btw is it possible to chosen-ciphertext attack gpg if it were to sit on the wire?
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11:27 mircea_popescu yes.
11:27 asciilifeform phf: if you're deciphering and putting result (in the 'yes' or 'fail' sense) somewhere enemy can see it - then eys.
11:27 asciilifeform *yes
11:29 phf well then
11:29 mircea_popescu which takes us to the conclusion of the dispute : yeah he's loud and awkward about it ; but there's genuine problems involved.
11:29 mircea_popescu such as this isn't really ready yet.
11:31 phf apparently it's even in the spec
11:32 mircea_popescu how did it go, "part of groking" or somesuch. i read this recently!
11:32 asciilifeform meanwhile, in heathendom: https://archive.is/g1hX0
11:33 asciilifeform ^ tor org removed ENTIRE board except for the veteran nsa stooge
11:33 mircea_popescu lol
11:33 mircea_popescu all of them, rapists ?
11:34 asciilifeform https://archive.is/iLrq1 << more to the point
11:36 phf mircea_popescu: it is part of grokking. simply to understand where chose-ciphertext comes in into the whole system, rather than just reddit the conversation. i think we just had a thread about it. i vaguelly suspect the result for an observer is going to be a smug conviction about words
11:36 mircea_popescu phf no i know. my whole point was that it works as intended.
11:37 phf ah
11:37 mircea_popescu ie, you trying to work on it resulted in you being mildly annoyed by what you perceived as out of place comms, which upon actual investigation turned out to be different from what originally seemed to be, and in the process of examining difference important feature of shoreline became illuminated and so on.
11:42 phf oh damn it's prof katz, https://www.cs.umd.edu/~jkatz/papers/pgp-attack.pdf
11:42 asciilifeform phf: i reread that piece just a few days ago
11:42 asciilifeform it is not entirely related to subj but still interesting.
11:43 phf i took cmsc414 with him
11:43 asciilifeform i did also, but quit 2wks in, in disgust
11:45 asciilifeform ok finally found the thread where mircea_popescu prods me to remember chosen-ciphertext/timing attack, http://btcbase.org/log/2015-11-28#1332988
11:45 a111 Logged on 2015-11-28 17:01 ascii_field: when folks start to attempt decryption of whatever piece of shit, just for the asking - then yes, acca
11:46 asciilifeform and where i go off to find some reference implementation of c-s, and discover, later, that none exists
11:47 mircea_popescu aha
11:50 mircea_popescu dude check out how smart i used to be in my youth.
11:50 * mircea_popescu likes reading old logs
11:51 deedbot http://trilema.com/2016/i-have-no-more-title-ideas-come-back-tomorrow/ << Trilema - I have no more title ideas. Come back tomorrow.
11:53 mircea_popescu aaand in other news, http://67.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m28gtxXzMa1r3d8abo1_500.gif
11:55 mircea_popescu for the record, "The departing directors are Meredith Hoban Dunn, Ian Goldberg, Julius Mittenzwei, Rabbi Rob Thomas, Wendy Seltzer and two of Tor’s co-founders, Roger Dingledine and Nick Mathewson. Mr. Dingledine and Mr. Mathewson will remain as leaders of Tor’s technical research and development.
11:55 mircea_popescu Their successors include Matt Blaze, a widely known cryptographer and associate professor at the University of Pennsylvania; Cindy Cohn, Ms. Steele’s successor as executive director at the Electronic Frontier Foundation; Bruce Schneier, a security author and expert; Gabriella Coleman, an anthropologist at McGill University who writes about online activism; Linus Nordberg, a longtime internet and privacy activist; and Megan
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11:55 mircea_popescu Price, executive director of the Human Rights Data Analysis Group."
11:56 mircea_popescu tor 2.0, the wives' club
11:56 mircea_popescu or how did they call this in ru ? where lenin's wife went, and all the other ambitious wives followed
11:57 BingoBoingo <phf> but we don't even have an equivalent of "great thing until it wasn't" produced by tmsr << BitBet follows, but was produced by TMSR blastocyst
11:58 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529634 << well i used the article in which you show an inclination to evanghelism ; rather than the other one.
11:58 a111 Logged on 2016-08-26 04:07 deedbot: http://danielpbarron.com/2016/he-has-an-unclean-spirit/ << Daniel P. Barron - He has an unclean spirit.
12:00 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529648 << so then does your ssh key exporter trust ips ?
12:00 a111 Logged on 2016-08-26 12:49 Framedragger: that can be construed as trust, but yeah ok.
12:01 mircea_popescu everyting "can be construed as trust" if one has this scalar notion of trust. "here is what body doing X thing reported its IP to be at the time it was doing the X thing" is a very different statement from "i expect to find my house at the corner of cunt street with shit creek"
12:03 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529656 << this is correct ; there's no general solution to sybil problem ; this is not unrelated to http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-25#1529170
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12:03 a111 Logged on 2016-08-26 13:04 phf: i don't think there's a solution to drowned in sibyl's in general. there's a cost to validating counterparty (which is continuous in case of gossipd, there's no "validate the ip, and then trust it" which is what i mean by "no trust in ip"), which can be exploited by attacker.
12:03 a111 Logged on 2016-08-25 03:13 phf: hehe, actually ambush strategy is one of the reasons there's no known solutions for general networks, which must be a bummer for dod
12:06 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529659 << and timing attacks, of course. of all numerous kinds - suppose as a banal example that what i want to do is discern whether key X is yours or his. well, a simple solution would be to add a third i know is not involved, send the same thing to all three, and see which of the susperct two behaves like the third.
↖ ↖
12:06 a111 Logged on 2016-08-26 13:13 phf: etc. you're only dealing with cost of validation. (which could be brought down by having own crypto)
12:06 mircea_popescu if - for instance, and do not reduce to merely this - 1 and 3 answer in 200ms and 2 answers in 600ms, i have my answer don't i.
12:18 deedbot http://qntra.net/2016/08/us-navy-project-tor-surrounded-by-drama-as-usg-reasserts-control/ << Qntra - US Navy Project "Tor" Surrounded By Drama As USG Reasserts Control
12:19 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529679 << well, before mp published it, at any rate :)
12:19 a111 Logged on 2016-08-26 13:41 asciilifeform: (and i will point out that i started on my concept long before mircea_popescu wrote it.)
12:19 phf right timing attacks with gpg as backend i get. i assumed that attacker being able to discover topology is a given (with spec as written)
12:20 mircea_popescu how did you figure that ?!
12:21 mircea_popescu attacker is very free to discover any topology he likes, much in the way attacker is welcome to decipher otp message to anything he pleases.
12:21 mircea_popescu THIS is the important point of security. not "you can't", but "of course you can - which would you prefer"
12:23 trinque BingoBoingo: s/actual/actually/
12:24 BingoBoingo ty trinque fxd
12:27 BingoBoingo Roundup Xtend 3 is going to be pretty full with all of the week's almost news.
12:29 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529874 << the general solution is wot + nothing-to-allcomers.
12:29 a111 Logged on 2016-08-26 16:03 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529656 << this is correct ; there's no general solution to sybil problem ; this is not unrelated to http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-25#1529170
12:29 mircea_popescu by definition this is a PARTICULAR solution
12:30 asciilifeform it is general in the sense where, if you include it, 'sybil' is no longer meaningful concept
12:30 mircea_popescu yes, but it cuts a chunk of the domain which is conveniently choseb
12:30 mircea_popescu it does promise to be a complete solution for its limited domain, i'll give you that.
12:31 BingoBoingo Win http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=5092
12:31 asciilifeform why am i reading a chronicle of some dude cleaning his fridge, BingoBoingo ?
12:32 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: For the exotic salt! And the absurdity of post-post-Modernity!
12:34 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529877 << timing can be 'ceilinged' and it solves problem. but i am still chewing on the problem of enemy being able to determine who is speaking to whom by deriving the public keys. (this is trivial with rsa, and i've been working on answering the q of whether is is also true for c-s)
↖
12:34 a111 Logged on 2016-08-26 16:06 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529659 << and timing attacks, of course. of all numerous kinds - suppose as a banal example that what i want to do is discern whether key X is yours or his. well, a simple solution would be to add a third i know is not involved, send the same thing to all three, and see which of the susperct two behaves like the third.
12:34 asciilifeform *it is
12:34 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529708 << what, like a Ln sorta thing ?!?!?! :D
12:35 asciilifeform phf: are you changing the oil in the thing as we speak, or wat
12:35 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the ceiling is a dirty hack. there's no practical way to guarantee it solves the problem.
12:35 mircea_popescu not that i'm against it. but it does not get classified as solution
12:35 asciilifeform solves the differential timing problem strictly.
12:35 mircea_popescu how ?
12:35 mircea_popescu suppose i can get a process to overrun the time ceiling.
12:36 asciilifeform then you catch the author of the code, hang him upside-down, and beat with a long bamboo pole.
12:36 mircea_popescu so it solved nothing, just a hack.
12:36 asciilifeform it solves if the hands do not grow from the arse.
12:36 asciilifeform just like any other proggy.
12:36 asciilifeform whether for univac or pc.
12:36 mircea_popescu if ceiling is absolute, if the program fails to produce output in interval, it'll have to put out error
12:36 mircea_popescu so you pay in error rate.
12:37 mircea_popescu and ARE STILL leaking bits, i measure your error rate now.
12:37 asciilifeform no errors.
12:37 asciilifeform algo takes C cycles.
12:37 asciilifeform period.
12:37 mircea_popescu so then how exactly is this supposed to work.
12:37 mircea_popescu uh.
12:37 asciilifeform no uh.
12:37 asciilifeform verifying a sig is not rocket surgery.
12:37 asciilifeform and can be placed in a limit of C cycles for n-bit rsa, say.
12:38 asciilifeform there are no magic cases.
12:38 mircea_popescu im starting to think your understanding of practical c is comic-book based.
12:38 mircea_popescu you at some point wrote a c program which, when compiled anywhere, resulted in the same COUNT of cpu cycles being used ?
12:38 asciilifeform my understanding is based in this exercise having been my profession.
12:38 mircea_popescu no fucking way dude, compiler will optimize who knows what
12:38 mircea_popescu then processor will cache who knows where
12:38 mircea_popescu this is from a different dimension.
12:38 BingoBoingo In other congressional cunt snot https://archive.is/apo81
12:39 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: on embedded cpu, with cache switched off, interrupts off - quite certainly, yes, known cycle count.
12:39 mircea_popescu even if written in straight asm, i doubt the time ceiling can be guaranteed in this manner
12:39 mircea_popescu asciilifeform uh. so now you're married to hardware ? why even do it software then, make gossipd a chip
12:40 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: my proposal included a device for gateway 'line rate crypto', recall.
12:40 asciilifeform but even on pc you can make a hard ceiling.
12:40 mircea_popescu you can maybe make a hard ceiling.
12:40 mircea_popescu anyway, a device would be neat, but i'm persuaded it won't be the first thing.
12:40 asciilifeform cache, incidentally, is controllable at least on amd.
12:41 mircea_popescu except the controls aren't controllable.
12:41 BingoBoingo "The sheriff’s office said deputies and Pinckneyville police officers received a call at 9:18 a.m. Saturday for reckless driving. Nine minutes later, officers tried to stop a blue 2016 Ford Hatchback, which failed to stop, the sheriff’s office said. An officer had to pull in front of the Ford to block it to force the vehicle to stop."
12:42 BingoBoingo ;;bc,stats
12:42 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: which is why you determine a ceiling (longest conceivable interval, assuming every single ram access is a cache miss, etc.)
12:43 asciilifeform and calculation ~never~ returns a result prior to interval elapsing.
12:43 mircea_popescu i must confess in all discussions of "time ceiling" i assumed clock-based cutoff not this hardcore "my asm runs in subspace" notion.
12:43 asciilifeform clock.
12:43 asciilifeform time := max(time it EVER took)
12:43 mircea_popescu and if you do it in this manner, then yes, it is theoretically possible that i make your program run for longer than the specified interval
12:43 mircea_popescu and then what do you do
12:44 asciilifeform if this happens, interval is bumped up.
12:44 asciilifeform if enemy can make it happen every second, programmer is a tard and ought to be fed to pigs.
12:44 mircea_popescu for... all implementations ? like, it happened to you so now gossipd-central updates my gossipd ?
12:44 mircea_popescu which is offline ?
12:44 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the ceiling is necessarily machine-specific
12:44 mircea_popescu i thought the ceiling was the code!
12:45 asciilifeform (e.g., i cannot know the rate at which mircea_popescu's reactor control card throws interrupts, or how many cpu core he has to handle them with, etc.)
12:45 mircea_popescu are we convinced it's an ugly hack yet or ?
12:46 asciilifeform the job of the algo is to perform same count of 'ideal cpu, no cache, all instr take the cycle count printed in the book' instructions per sig verif.
12:46 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: running safety-critical code on pc ~is~ a hack, and there is no way fully around it except to burn the pc.
12:46 mircea_popescu but at least it become evident from this discussion that we'll prolly bundle a performancer, ie something to benchmark key parts of the crypto lib on machines for the user's benefit.
12:47 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: do you perchance have the link to the sov typewriter thread ?
12:47 asciilifeform where they countered differential power analysis
12:47 asciilifeform by making the machine draw same current regardless of what keys are pressed, or if any are
12:47 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2015-11-20#1327989 ?
12:47 a111 Logged on 2015-11-20 01:49 asciilifeform: like soviet typewriter fp.
12:48 asciilifeform nope
12:48 asciilifeform that's the 'fingerprint of how it types' thread
12:48 asciilifeform sop since 1920s
12:48 asciilifeform i was speaking of dpa.
12:48 mircea_popescu oh right, we had this with the german museum o' crypto
12:48 asciilifeform aha
12:48 mircea_popescu iirc even had pics of one
12:49 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2015-04-02#1083802
12:49 a111 Logged on 2015-04-02 03:54 asciilifeform: http://www.cryptomuseum.com/crypto/fialka/psu/tempest.htm#circuit << tries to prevent differential power analysis
12:49 asciilifeform THERE we go.
12:49 asciilifeform ty mircea_popescu .
12:49 mircea_popescu had you been spending time trying to dig this up ?
12:49 asciilifeform this is instructive example of what i was speaking of earlier.
12:50 asciilifeform i just wanted it plugged into this thread, and for some odd reason it did not turn up in my notes.
12:50 mircea_popescu took me all of 2 seconds, and i thought "funny how this works, where one man's stumped another man sees not the trouble"
12:51 asciilifeform happens rather often here, doesnit.
12:51 mircea_popescu apparently
12:56 asciilifeform one other point re http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529877 is that divorcing from 'a node is an ip' entirely, makes this or any variant of this attack considerably more painful. with single-packet quanta, and raptor code (i.e. it does not matter whether mircea_popescu gets all of my packets in order, but only that he gets 10% of the packets i send in next second, in SOME order) his 'node' could consist of 15 machines in 6 continent
12:56 a111 Logged on 2016-08-26 16:06 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529659 << and timing attacks, of course. of all numerous kinds - suppose as a banal example that what i want to do is discern whether key X is yours or his. well, a simple solution would be to add a third i know is not involved, send the same thing to all three, and see which of the susperct two behaves like the third.
12:56 asciilifeform s, as can mine, and traffic between them cannot be grouped into 'a conversation between x and y' by third party.
12:56 asciilifeform because i can send raptorade split among 25 boxes, to his 15, in random order.
12:57 asciilifeform mpex proxies are a reasonably good analogy for this.
12:58 asciilifeform enemy's entire infrastructure has a premise baked in, that a 'conversation' is something that happens 'between ip a and b'.
12:58 asciilifeform pound the knife in it.
13:00 asciilifeform (this also makes for a clean transition to comms over shortwave, hijacked tv satellites, or whatever other twist the future holds where packets come with NO return address)
13:01 asciilifeform ^ but we already, i think, did this thread.
13:14 trinque well. current mcclim project is run by inclusive shitgnomes.
13:14 * trinque parts #clim
13:14 trinque ;;later tell gabriel_laddel good luck wringing something usable from those people; they're idiots.
13:14 asciilifeform trinque: got any good atrocity stories ?
13:15 trinque nothing even worth the mention. they're the types that cry for their mothers when an aggressive argument is brought.
13:15 trinque they banned gabriel_laddel for beating on some fucknut that thought ncurses clim ought to be a thing
13:15 * asciilifeform pictures a turbovision clim.
13:16 asciilifeform i'd actually like such a thing.
13:16 asciilifeform for dos.
13:16 asciilifeform 80x25 motherfuckers.
13:19 trinque anything even remotely graphical would turn into libcacaesque garble, neh?
13:20 trinque or dropped
13:21 trinque sounds like it turns into the web browser "supports 9999 devices and browser versions" which has never actually been a thing
13:21 asciilifeform 'turn into' how ?
13:21 asciilifeform via cosmic rayz ?
13:21 asciilifeform $s разруха
13:21 a111 6 results for "разруха", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D1%80%D1%83%D1%85%D0%B0
13:21 asciilifeform ^ see also.
13:21 mircea_popescu asciilifeform no argument re no-ip-and-raptor scheme. the deeper point for me is that the advances happen so quickly and are so significant that it's yet early.
13:22 trinque asciilifeform: I have no idea what you're talking about
13:22 trinque clim is a graphical UI thinger; how does this map to an 80x25 character display
13:22 asciilifeform trinque: ever use turbovision proggies (e.g., borland cpp)
13:22 asciilifeform they had 'gui' made out of ansi chars.
13:23 trinque that's what I said: libcaca
13:23 trinque ansi-fier
13:23 mircea_popescu lol wait gabriel got banned ?
13:24 trinque aha
13:24 asciilifeform trinque: i specifically did not mean 'ansifier', as in your caca, or the infamous 'ascii starwars', but purposeful ansi-drawing.
13:24 trinque crossed the cultural streams!
13:25 asciilifeform http://www.bttr-software.de/freesoft/tree86.png << y'know, like-so.
13:25 mircea_popescu lmao that poor kid.
13:25 mircea_popescu has anyone a spare bedroom/garage/whatever willing to rent to me for a reasoble sum and park gabriel there for a few months ?
↖ ↖
13:26 asciilifeform iirc he was also studying at stanford ?
13:26 asciilifeform don't they give'em barracks to live in?
13:26 mircea_popescu i have nfi
13:26 asciilifeform then again if he genuinely went broke, was probably booted
13:27 trinque maybe 2016 stanford is just this Slack you show up to
13:27 mircea_popescu i would expect.
13:27 asciilifeform (there are students panhandling for tuition at schools like uni of md, which doesn't cost a fifth of what stanford costs)
13:27 asciilifeform i also saw them in chicago
13:27 asciilifeform panhandling for art school money.
13:27 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> has anyone a spare bedroom/garage/whatever willing to rent to me for a reasoble sum and park gabriel there for a few months ? << Parking him in my spider hole would be bad for my sobriety
13:27 asciilifeform it is now, apparently, a thing.
13:28 mircea_popescu i also saw them in every red light district
13:28 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: gurls are not real panhandlers.
13:28 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: they are more like your german shepherd.
13:28 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo tghere is also that. ideally a married fellow, lest we end up making more gabriel laddels.
13:29 asciilifeform is ben_vulpes around ?
13:29 mircea_popescu asciilifeform panhandlers / butthandlers dichotomy ?
13:29 asciilifeform maybe he could fit him in his unabomber cabin.
13:29 mats lol
13:29 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: aha.
13:30 thestringpuller i have a motel room, but he'd have to work
13:30 thestringpuller and be initiated into a gang...
13:30 mircea_popescu you live in a motel ?
13:30 thestringpuller no i have a motel on lock...for...things...
13:31 mircea_popescu btw, if motel is motel, wtf is a ho-tel.
13:31 thestringpuller i can't afford ho-tels on lock. i'm no conrad hilton.
13:32 asciilifeform what's 'on lock' ?
13:32 asciilifeform is it like lawyer 'on retainer' ?
13:33 asciilifeform or is it empty carcass of motel, with a lock on it, and thestringpuller has the key.
13:33 thestringpuller asciilifeform: "lawyer on retainer"
13:34 asciilifeform thestringpuller: what is the point of such a thing ?
13:34 trinque thestringpuller: oh hey, did you want your blog in the rss list?
13:34 thestringpuller asciilifeform: as mircea_popescu said...ho bsns.
13:34 asciilifeform lolk
13:34 thestringpuller trinque: i'd be honored!
13:35 thestringpuller asciilifeform: but not so much ho bsns, as slave bsns. motel == office. with unpaid interns. think 1980's startup.
13:36 mircea_popescu asciilifeform think of it as sewage filter. dunno if you've seen ossessione, but anyway : the street blows by all sorts, maybe some junk you'd like to hold on for a while.
13:37 mircea_popescu typical retirement for aged 2nd tier whores. they have just enough connections to make the whole thing work.
13:37 deedbot http://thestringpuller.com/2016/06/bitcoin-in-wakanda/ << Pull Your Own Strings - Bitcoin in Wakanda
13:37 deedbot http://thestringpuller.com/2016/06/the-coinbase-implosion-timer/ << Pull Your Own Strings - The Coinbase Implosion Timer
13:37 deedbot http://thestringpuller.com/2016/06/bitcoin-wont-hardfork-any-time-soon/ << Pull Your Own Strings - Bitcoin Won’t Hardfork Any Time Soon
13:37 deedbot http://thestringpuller.com/2016/06/outer-heaven/ << Pull Your Own Strings - Outer Heaven
13:37 deedbot http://thestringpuller.com/2016/07/mass-adoption-as-a-ponzi-scheme/ << Pull Your Own Strings - Mass Adoption as a Ponzi Scheme
13:37 deedbot http://thestringpuller.com/2016/07/consumers-revolt/ << Pull Your Own Strings - Consumers Revolt
13:37 deedbot http://thestringpuller.com/2016/07/closing-the-loop/ << Pull Your Own Strings - Closing the Loop
13:37 deedbot http://thestringpuller.com/2016/07/a-steeming-bubble/ << Pull Your Own Strings - A Steeming Bubble
13:37 deedbot http://thestringpuller.com/2016/07/slockit-enables-scamming/ << Pull Your Own Strings - Slockit Enables Scamming
13:37 deedbot http://thestringpuller.com/2016/08/metcalfes-lie/ << Pull Your Own Strings - Metcalfe’s Lie
13:38 trinque lol, forgot about asciilifeform's requested max spew increase
13:38 mircea_popescu lol
13:41 phf asciilifeform: i don't know what that was, i'll have to read the log/code but probably sometime later tonight. fwiw it reconnects
13:41 phf it's running on a new irc code, unfortunately pretty close to me going away into desert, but hopefully today tomorrow i'll have time to debug it a bit
13:42 thestringpuller phf is going to burning man?
13:43 phf basically it's a choice between beta level code that is likely to do something stupid, but not as likely to completely die and stable code that doesn't know how to reconnect dying on wednesday while i'm away
13:44 phf thestringpuller: yes
13:45 mircea_popescu you lot are gonna take slutpics etc yes ?
~ 15 minutes ~
14:00 BingoBoingo http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/no-more-felony-stealing-charges-after-missouri-supreme-court-ruling/article_f7224f17-ff1a-53bd-9462-1235d3f636c6.html
14:00 BingoBoingo "The court ruled that because the law that defines stealing doesn’t include the value of property stolen as an element of the offense, prosecutors couldn’t charge the woman in the case with felony stealing."
14:01 phf hmm, there's no exceptions, bot's simply timing out. i wonder if i should put a reconnect throttle. i wouldn't be surprised if the ping is timing out, but a connection can still go through. so bot times out, then reconnects, then one ping goes through, another one times out, so bot disconnects again..
14:05 phf or perhaps digitalocean is just shit
14:05 asciilifeform https://thehackerblog.com/floating-domains-taking-over-20k-digitalocean-domains-via-a-lax-domain-import-system/index.html << related.
14:05 mircea_popescu digitalocean is shit, for sure.
14:06 asciilifeform http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/dad3c494-6e89-4cd5-98a4-7d767786a855/?raw=true << in other recent lulz
14:08 asciilifeform or 'how shitgnomes suture their wounds'
14:08 asciilifeform didjaknow, 'gawker was about phreeeeeeedom' etc.
14:09 mircea_popescu lol. gawker is about freedom in the sense putin is about gay sex.
14:11 asciilifeform fleadom.
~ 52 minutes ~
15:04 thestringpuller asciilifeform || RAGE_FLAG_1
15:08 mircea_popescu $key PeterL
15:08 deedbot http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/0ebf8203-fb4b-4f6b-886e-96d0480c9c82/
~ 55 minutes ~
16:03 danielpbarron http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1530024 << maybe. I'm about to start up my seasonal thing, which means I move in at work, leaving empty space where I currently reside. But that's a really big maybe seeing as how it's not my place and it's a very risky thing, letting someone move in. That aside, the timeframe is perfect. I will be away for more than a few months even
16:03 a111 Logged on 2016-08-26 17:25 mircea_popescu: has anyone a spare bedroom/garage/whatever willing to rent to me for a reasoble sum and park gabriel there for a few months ?
~ 54 minutes ~
16:58 asciilifeform covertress: lemme guess, you've got a new Veeeery Speeeshul Private Offer!11111 Just For mircea_popescu .
17:03 trinque lel
~ 59 minutes ~
18:02 covertress asciilifeform: if i do, you'll be the last to know
↖ ↖
18:03 deedbot http://www.contravex.com/2016/08/26/dear-america-pull-up-your-pants-your-inadequacy-is-showing/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - Dear America: Pull up your pants, your inadequacy is showing.
18:05 asciilifeform covertress: http://trilema.com/2014/a-short-compendium-of-stupid-things-you-should-never-say << useful reference.
18:05 asciilifeform #4 in particular.
18:06 BingoBoingo covertress: Lots of reading to catch up on.
18:07 asciilifeform it was written by the fella whose diesel-powered cock you were considering to encompass, covertress . i recommend reading attentively.
~ 30 minutes ~
18:37 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: lovely thing for you - http://fusion.net/story/340171/how-nextdoor-reduced-racial-profiling << possibly qntrable.
18:37 asciilifeform New, Better hatefact filterz!
18:38 asciilifeform 'He said Nextdoor has added “racial profiling” as a category for people who want to flag a conversation as inappropriate and that it has provided additional training on how to recognize toxic conversations about race to the volunteer “neighborhood leads” who are responsible for moderating discussions.'
18:38 asciilifeform gold.
18:44 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: That's not news. That's sponsored content.
18:44 BingoBoingo How can a serivce have 100 kilousers when it doesn't even have two centiusers?
18:45 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: noshit.jpg. but consider, SOMEONE was audience for this crapolade !
18:45 asciilifeform to SOMEONE, this was supposed to read as an appealing! thing.
18:47 BingoBoingo If there were complaints though I'd expect them to actually have increased over the past two weeks as I've taken to walking around with athletic black girl to trigger fat white bitches into hopefully eating less.
18:48 pete_dushenski BingoBoingo: that strat works about as well as lonely white kids watching blacked.com in triggering crackers to get more hung.
18:49 BingoBoingo pete_dushenski: But this is IRL which haz moar pixels!
18:49 BingoBoingo And also pickup truck cuntry
18:50 pete_dushenski depends if you're wearing your spectacles or watching spectacles online
18:50 pete_dushenski distance matters.
18:50 pete_dushenski also, i dun need lessons in pickups! http://www.contravex.com/2016/06/24/a-trucking-good-time/
18:52 pete_dushenski i may not have grown up in former su, but the arctic is its own kind of strange parallel universe requiring altogether mesmerising adaptations
18:53 BingoBoingo pete_dushenski: But do you know about lol mart
18:53 pete_dushenski speaking of which, cheers to mircea_popescu for the elliot chronicles! i loled many, many times
18:53 mircea_popescu shinohai make it answer to !~ plox
18:53 mircea_popescu pete_dushenski aha. and only halfway yet!
18:53 pete_dushenski wait seriously ?
18:54 pete_dushenski that's... epic
18:54 mircea_popescu aha.
18:55 pete_dushenski mircea_popescu: best parts of series thus far, imo, are when parallels are drawns to ro of 70s/80s
18:56 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1530099 << lol alf, you got a way with teh ladies, brings out the icy in 'em!
18:56 a111 Logged on 2016-08-26 22:02 covertress: asciilifeform: if i do, you'll be the last to know
18:57 * asciilifeform is simply not at all fond of ninjashotguns, ain't no seeekrit
18:58 mircea_popescu what's one to do with the other ?
18:58 pete_dushenski http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529760 << incidentally, a prenup is entirely unnecessary with the advent of bitcoin. but i guess we can forgive kanye given the age of that particular tune.
18:58 a111 Logged on 2016-08-26 14:30 thestringpuller: so: "Holla, "We want prenup! We want prenup!" (Yeah!)"
18:59 pete_dushenski mircea_popescu: hm ? i mean the snowforts of giza and whatnot.
18:59 asciilifeform pete_dushenski: in the anglo world, it is 'unnecessary' in the same way bleeding-as-medicine is. i.e. unless you are a lizard, judge will piss on your prenup.
19:00 mircea_popescu there is also that.
19:01 asciilifeform and the 'child support' thing is wholly separate from alimony and contracts have 0 effect.
19:01 asciilifeform (ianal, but the talmudic fiction is that it is 'a right of the child')
19:02 mircea_popescu asciilifeform technically it's quite sensible as it's deferred inheritance.
19:02 pete_dushenski lol
19:02 mircea_popescu us is one of those places which piss on testaments.
19:02 mircea_popescu ie, barbaric, as per roman law.
19:02 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: entirely separate thing from that also.
19:02 asciilifeform at least on paper.
19:02 mircea_popescu nah.
19:02 mircea_popescu well, paper or no paper.
19:03 mircea_popescu but virtually any half-competent estate/tax attorney will explain to you it's fucking dumb to skimp on child support.
19:03 asciilifeform can 'half-competent' estate atty explain why billionaire owes moar of it than pauper ?
19:04 asciilifeform the fiction is that it has something to do with what it costs to grow a kid, but the reality does not at all resemble the fiction.
19:04 asciilifeform billionaire's sperm costs more to grow into adult, or wat.
19:04 mircea_popescu look : the entire profession of estate lawyer is this : "you want to transfer X sugar from A to B ; with ants eating as little as possible on the way. This is how you time-attack the ants :"
19:04 pete_dushenski greenspun, despite appearing to be happily married and fathering and what have you, is ~obsessed~ with alimony / child support / no fault divorce litigation in the states. he openly advocates that young ladies skip 'career' and instead have illegitimate children with lawyers, dentists, school principals, etc.
19:04 mircea_popescu ie, sooner or later you will want to transfer some money to these children. do it sooner rather than later, escape some tax burden
19:04 asciilifeform what if you do not.
19:04 asciilifeform or wish to transfer, CONDITIONALLY
19:04 mircea_popescu pete_dushenski greenspun is also a bitter idiot.
19:05 asciilifeform y'know, like sane people
19:05 mircea_popescu you still do freebie peanuts.
19:05 asciilifeform and to kid, and not to some whore.
19:05 mircea_popescu and no, conditionally aka main morte is not like sane people. it's like very insane people.
19:05 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> and to kid, and not to some whore. << Because of Classism.
19:05 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you don't marry "some whore".
19:05 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: most collectors of child support in usa were never married.
19:06 pete_dushenski mircea_popescu: windows 10 (l)user. aha.
19:06 mircea_popescu where you got that statistic from lol
19:07 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: marriage is ~extinct in usa.
19:07 asciilifeform esp. among the breeding class.
19:08 asciilifeform not mega-seekrit.
19:08 mircea_popescu whatevs. you don't associate with "some whore".
19:08 mircea_popescu we were talking rich people, not rotinculo.
19:08 asciilifeform 'rich people' in the usual sense do not have this problem.
19:08 asciilifeform they can move money into inaccessible universes.
19:09 mircea_popescu sigh.
19:09 BingoBoingo More on that classist breeding http://www.kew.org/discover/blogs/kew-science/taming-savage-cabbage
19:09 mircea_popescu back to the topic : if you're rich, it's probably a bad idea for fiscal reasons to skimp on child support.
19:09 pete_dushenski i've heard of this 'blackholing money' thing. was all the rage circa 2007/8
19:09 asciilifeform incidentally in usa, child support is not a cheque to the child's mother
19:09 asciilifeform but to usg.
19:09 asciilifeform who then passes on ~80% of it.
19:10 mircea_popescu depends how you arrange it. dun have to be.
19:10 asciilifeform mircea_popescu surely knows this.
19:10 mircea_popescu but yes, they do try to eat as much as they can of anything.
19:10 asciilifeform if it is arranged via official channels, and is legally termed 'child support' - as in , was sued for - then it is.
19:10 asciilifeform if it is a 'silent understanding' in, e.g., amicable divorce - then no usg vig
19:10 mircea_popescu asciilifeform there's a whole array of settlements and structured etcs available. moreover, if you keep that money and kid inherits it, usg steals 60% not 20%
19:10 asciilifeform but interestingly the right to invoke the usg support mechanism ~cannot be signed away~ in usa.
19:11 mircea_popescu generally, socialist state eats out of societal disension. this is not going away.
19:11 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: if you meritwash the kid and appoint him as director of the usual faux charity/corp/etc. usg gets 0.
19:11 mircea_popescu every time you fuck over your fellow man, an usg nigger and libertard jew cackle in glee.
19:11 asciilifeform which is what they typically do.
19:12 asciilifeform and yes, orlov put this point in book length, when you borrow money from banks instead of your blood clan, jew cackles, and coins ring in usg coffer, etc.
19:12 asciilifeform when you buy car from car co. instead of trading for barrel of rum from blood clan, jew cackles. etc.
19:12 asciilifeform star topology.
19:13 mircea_popescu aha
19:13 mircea_popescu well, blood, wot, whatever.
19:13 mircea_popescu but the overarching, important point is that "some whore" is by far your best ally, and sharpest instrument.
19:13 mircea_popescu stop hating them ; start training them.
19:14 asciilifeform if you run a sufficiently tight imperium in imperio, usg gets to bite its elbows and you can get away with pretty much anything, so long as the wall is tall enough.
19:14 asciilifeform just ask the mormons, nyc hassids, etc.
19:14 asciilifeform folks who do not fall into one of these clans, end up in the inca's star topology and get raped.
19:15 pete_dushenski or less publicised wots
19:15 asciilifeform and yes, if woman knows that your cousins hassan and ibrahim will douse her in petrol and light if she takes you to usg divorce court -- she probably won't.
19:16 asciilifeform mega-solution for the rest of us.
19:17 pete_dushenski what's this 'rest of us' thing ?
19:17 asciilifeform pete_dushenski: strictly the set of folk who dun have a hassan and ibrahim.
19:17 pete_dushenski there's no solutions for everyone - not homogeneous group!1
19:18 pete_dushenski asciilifeform: it's arguably a historically accidental set, this.
19:18 asciilifeform solution described works for some folks.
19:18 asciilifeform the others - can try to copy, or make own.
19:19 pete_dushenski perhaps like making own trojan though - need thousand years, not thousand days
19:19 asciilifeform but to copy it you need a reasonably self-contained tribal machine for settling disputes, otherwise devolves to a contest of who can invoke usg library calls to moar effect.
19:19 asciilifeform and eventually devolves to the usual 'star topology'.
19:20 asciilifeform the jews of old europe understood this, and - best as i know - NEVER invoked the goyish judicial system on whatever pretext, when dispute was wholly internal
19:21 pete_dushenski not like persians didn't try to make own hoplites, but inevitably ended up buying existing mercs because short-term it was the only practicable solution
19:21 pete_dushenski asciilifeform: aha. no 'get' no leaving.
19:29 pete_dushenski https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3uauu8ss8YY/V7-qnTD7JyI/AAAAAAAAnGQ/WUQ121zzWegsEQ77pLVhy_4iS2zTDThSACLcB/s640/NGFT8iIu1r4ddooUcbYeP9eWY_XCjenfVugh0sQGf38.jpg << that's one way to use an old stadium (in osaka). cost-effective at least. /me wonders about property values in the interior
~ 52 minutes ~
20:21 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the problem with your view it's that it's so damned adversarial.
20:22 mircea_popescu you seriously imagine fear of retribution keeps my harem together ?!
20:25 shinohai well shit
20:25 shinohai !~ticker
20:25 jhvh1 shinohai: Error: "~ticker" is not a valid command.
↖
20:25 shinohai hrm
20:25 asciilifeform mircea_popescu's harem is typical american marriahe the way my battlestation is typical amer pc.
20:26 mircea_popescu but the point remains.
20:26 mircea_popescu your computer still runs on electricity, not on molasses.
~ 27 minutes ~
20:54 lobbes http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529720 << lol, lobbesbot has had this for a few months btw. It is supybot pretty much, so all the favorites are there: later, seen, calc, etc
20:54 a111 Logged on 2016-08-26 14:14 mircea_popescu: jurov now there is : http://logs.minigame.bz/2016-08-26.log.html#t14:13:32
20:54 lobbes but now it is there twice :P
20:55 lobbes of course, if I finally got to adding search on the logs, maybe it'd be easier to find this out :/
21:04 mircea_popescu and a help page hehe.
21:05 shinohai ahh nice
21:12 lobbes help page noted. I'll put it first in the queue
21:23 mircea_popescu cool.
~ 40 minutes ~
22:03 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-27#1530222 << ahahahaha teh blasphemiez!
22:03 a111 Logged on 2016-08-27 00:25 jhvh1: shinohai: Error: "~ticker" is not a valid command.
22:04 * shinohai did it for the glory of Baal of course
22:05 ben_vulpes sail hatin'
22:05 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1530099 << epic butthurt
22:05 a111 Logged on 2016-08-26 22:02 covertress: asciilifeform: if i do, you'll be the last to know
~ 21 minutes ~
22:27 asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2016/the-story-of-elliot-rodger-by-elliot-rodger-adnotated-part-sex << oh hey.
22:41 mircea_popescu hello mr hawk lol
22:42 deedbot http://trilema.com/2016/the-story-of-elliot-rodger-by-elliot-rodger-adnotated-part-sex/ << Trilema - The Story of Elliot Rodger. By Elliot Rodger. Adnotated. Part Sex.
22:50 mircea_popescu and in other lulz, https://archive.is/uH9LM
22:51 mircea_popescu if all this guy's guides/howtos/whatever are like that, it's no wonder his clientele has issues.
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