#asciilifeform | 2019-12-24

I'm aware of that aspect of it, yes.

00:00

I'd still argue those are largely separate.

00:01

the other well-known example, is linus's refusal to nail down the kernel abi.

00:01

via same logic.

00:01

In any case, I appreciate having a Free Software Ada compiler, so GNAT is better than nothing, don't you agree?

00:02

So, this first project you mention is an Ada-to-HTML software; that's interesting, as I've given some thought to something similar, but I'd need to build a proper Ada parser before anything else.

00:03

verisimilitude: it is very easy to think 'hey, better than nothing', when looking at a piece of phree soft. but it remains that it took the wind outta the sails of folx who may have otherwise written a 'better than better-than-nothing', in any particular case.

00:03

was my pt re linux earlier.

00:03

gnat in particular, just barely worx.

00:03

I may write a half-hearted and brittle implementation of this, first, but I'm also not too fond of the WWW anyway, so it would largely be viewed by me as wasted effort.

00:05

As for the RNG, what's your opinion on this piece?

00:06

verisimilitude: looks from vendor site like the usual single-chip unauditable garbage.

00:06

like 100% of the market outside of FG.

00:06

Alright; I seem to recall there being an earlier iteration that seemed more auditable than this current one.

00:07

in general, if you can't physically pull off the analogue end (i.e. the part that actually gathers entropy) & replace w/ own, it's rubbish

00:07

ditto if you can't feed known input ( and compare w/ expected output ) into the digital end.

00:08

That's sensible.

00:08

ditto if the thing 'whitens' (i.e. puts the bits through a hash or similar, disguising a possibly-dead analogue end) . which i've found 100% of heathen rng in fact do.

00:08

all of this is discussed in detail on the orig. FG www ( perma-copy here . )

00:08

I've been to the page, yes.

00:09

then i expect not surprised by asciilifeform's answr.

00:09

You're very convincing, with your criticism of ``whitening''. So you rightfully believe the device should return the entropy directly, which is easier to audit.

00:09

imho it is not the least bit difficult to build proper rng. ( esp. given that asciilifeform published 100% schematics. ) but somehow folx studiously avoid doing it.

00:12

if one insists, for whatever reason, on manipulating rng output via e.g. hashes, do it on software end. but don't lie to the purchaser of the iron and say that sha(whatever) is 'entropy', sha(1234....infinity) will fool 100% of mathematical 'entropy test' while being cryptographically worthless just the same.

00:13

I'm largely ignorant of the keypair generation algorithm, but what do you think, asciilifeform, of performing this algorithm by-hand, so that a complex and faulty implementation won't be an issue? Is this infeasible for a human to do?

00:13

verisimilitude: feel free to try it by hand.

00:14

may take a while.

00:15

if yer handy with pen&paper addition, may come back some time next decade...

00:16

So, I suppose the next best thing is to use an old machine that wouldn't reasonably be compromised, then. I appreciate your answer, asciilifeform.

00:16

verisimilitude: in practice this is what afaik most serious folx do. e.g. 486 lappy w/ pgp.

00:16

Well, I've machines far older than that I could use.

00:17

verisimilitude: see e.g. mp's take on subj.

00:17

I believe I've already read that, but I'll take another look.

00:18

in practice, late 486 is prolly the slowest/memory-poorest that can be used for everyday rsa.

00:19

BingoBoingo: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=o-wU

00:19

try that.

00:19

i've written , as experiment, rsa for 8bit micros, but imho very few folx could live with it (multi-hour decrypt, multi-day keygen)

00:20

!q seen BingoBoingo

00:20

BingoBoingo last seen here on 2019-12-23 21:01:42: mike_c: ty

00:20

!q seen-anywhere BingoBoingo

00:20

BingoBoingo last seen in #trilema on 2019-12-23 23:00:30: !Qlater tell mike_c http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-23#1956002

00:20

ossabot

(trilema) 2019-12-23 BingoBoingo: !!deed http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=LM6J

00:20

asciilifeform: can you do me a quick favor and see if that paste above verifies for you

00:21

mike_c: ty, that one does verify

00:21

mike_c: it does

00:21

great

00:21

thanks

00:21

BingoBoingo's, that is

00:21

lemme try mike_c's

00:22

hmm 'pub key not found'

00:22

mike_c it dun verify w/ your wot.deedbot.org key

00:23

you might not have the mpex key in your ring

00:23

that signature is mpex, not mine

00:23

indeed i do not

00:23

http://qntra.net/2019/12/uncaring-markets-see-us-dollar-fall-against-peso-uruguayo-and-brazis-real-while-peso-argentino-will-not-stop-shitting-the-bed/ << Qntra -- Uncaring Markets See US Dollar Fall Against Peso Uruguayo And Brazil's Real While Peso Argentino Will Not Stop Shitting The Bed

00:23

it verified for bingo, so should be good

00:23

if BingoBoingo has that key, and verifies, then i suppose it does

00:23

mike_c i do not have mpex subscription

00:23

me either :)

00:24

mike_c: this was the only time i did...

00:25

S.BBET x 1`005`851 << this is pretty strange. how is it that bbet is still listed ? i thought all of the holders were paid in '16 when liquidated ?

00:25

mike_c: If you could GPG sign your instructions to me, including your math on how you propose to value what the statement declares, it will be greatly appreciated.

00:26

BingoBoingo: i can resend my note with a sig, but basically all I said was "whatever you think best, and please require a signed message if we get to the point of sending coin"

00:26

oh, sure

00:26

the math was merely illustratrive, but I can resend

00:29

BingoBoingo: iirc you used mpex. does yours also list bbet shares as alive ?!!

00:29

mike_c: I would just like to see that all in wrapped your GPG signature since you would like coin if the outcome is decided in your favor.

00:29

yup, will be delivered momentarily

00:29

mike_c: ty

00:31

asciilifeform: I use jurov in his capacity as a broker. I arrived a bit later than you did.

00:31

BingoBoingo: i never had either type

00:32

( had the demo ver., for month+, in 2012-13, was all. )

00:33

( fwiw -- it worked! 100%. for the demo eval interval. )

00:38

the part where bbet shares still show up as shares, rather than coin, tho, seems like a bug, unless i grossly misunderstand how mpex worked

00:41

BingoBoingo: meanwhile in other oddities.

00:42

asciilifeform: I saw that in the mod hopper and could not discern if it is spam or a product of profound confusion

00:44

BingoBoingo: i suspect the latter

00:44

tho not trivially distinguishable

00:48

BingoBoingo: loox like -- some heathen finally read the 2017 segshitness thrd in #t, and then wrote (in the typical ball-bearings-in-skullcase style) piece re subj .

00:49

BingoBoingo: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=KcLJ

00:51

mike_c: wai no mention of the bbet shares ? they were worth sumthing at the time of 2016 liquidation, iirc

00:52

from what I remember, funds were dispersed and the shares just never delisted

00:52

( or, did this require that you push a button, and in fact forgot ? )

00:52

hm ok

00:52

( so mpex has 'zombie processes' like linux? lol )

00:53

yeah

00:53

*

asciilifeform had nfi

00:53

mike_c: ty, I will assemble your submitted materials for deeding.

00:54

BingoBoingo: re linked piece -- fwiw i read until mentioned 'craig wright', after that could no moar

00:54

lemme know if you read / i missed anyffin.

00:58

also, BingoBoingo, if you care to diff you'll note there is no visible difference between statement that verified and what I sent you earlier.

00:59

so don't know if it was some encoding snafu or what, but certainly nothing other than technical issue.

01:00

I'll admit the possibility of error on my part, but I suspect something munged something.

01:00

just wanted to put that out there for the logs :)

~ 11 hours 59 minutes ~

13:00

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/12/11/nato-eu-emmanuel-macrons-new-strategy-is-being-a-jerk

13:00

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2019/12/17/look-out-some-chinese-thinkers-are-girding-for-a-financial-war-086610

13:01

https://www.scmp.com/business/banking-finance/article/3042267/hong-kong-withstands-protests-only-trickle-fright-capital

13:06

little mention in western papers to recent chinese history, of how huaren were significant contributors to sun yatsen’s dismantlement of the qing, and how they might be a problem for beijing

13:08

managing the southerners and protests in guangdong will be a challenge

13:12

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Guangdong supports some of my claims about the diaspora being canto, but i admit describing it as overwhelmingly so, is probably unfalsifiable and apocryphal

13:17

anyway, beijing benefits from having a consolidated bureaucracy, a state surveillance system so vast, complete, and never before seen in human history. xjp may rule for another 20y, they have the benefit of wealth and great patience, while the west thinks in fractions of a year and state planning that rarely survive four

13:19

if i had to guess what their greatest challenge will be in 20y, it wouldnt be collision with the west but their age demographics problem with old folks, and india’s comparatively much younger, poorer, and angrier population

13:20

curious what you all might think about the above

13:21

modi seems to be struggling to stay in power, with hindu populations in decline and muslims on the rise, the run on kashmir is interesting and idk enough about india to understand what his big picture, if any, looks like

13:27

it will be interesting to see how china reacts to this demographics shift, particularly as the current ruling elites - significant # who i believe learned ru as their second lang, as i loosely recall LKY saying once in an interview - age out and the new breed educated in the west and may be en/de/fr second lang speakers, come to power

13:29

i suspect familiarity will have bred contempt in many, not unlike how mormons are sent out to spread the word and experience the deep loathing the world has for them, returning to the fold in 2y never to leave the faith or communities again

~ 15 minutes ~

13:44

and i wish to issue a correction, traditional chinese is in fact still in regular usage in hk, they teach it first and folks get concurrent education in putonghua. i used simplified in correspondence with govt officials and got trad back in some cases, but machine translation between the two is flawless in my short experience so it didnt matter

13:53

im still getting over how small and young taiwanese (well, asians) in general look, i guess i got trained on bigger models in usa. one chick i know who is about 5ft7in and maybe 120lbs had been referred to as fat three times within my earshot and its kinda still mind boggling, like the idealised tw woman is actually a 90lbs female that looks 14y/o

~ 40 minutes ~

14:33

mpex always had, and probably always will have, a certain je-ne-sai-quoi of being an almost-entirely hand-cranked system, with only the bare minimum amount of automation

14:37

e.g., the one and only time that MP and I exchanged private messages, was for a bug report: one of the internet-facing machines got setup with a clock 24 hours in the future

14:39

*

adlai still can't help but wonder what exactly went on in the minds of the people behind [the software behind] all those market orders that traded against scalpl's limit orders

14:39

even if you claim that scalpl traded only against other scripts... e pur si muove?

14:43

e.g., let's say mircea ran a dozen bots on dummy accounts, just for fun, to livetest trading algorithms; leaving these running, after a feedback-suppression bot has arrived, is rather like an animal looking at a bleeding cut and saying, "the bloodflow is quite negligible, maybe i'll send platelets tomorrow"

14:44

i guess mircea is just so unimaginably rich that mike_c's hundred-and-change btc is pocket lint, and my meagre takings ... the lint from the pocket lint's pocket

14:46

*

adlai wishes mike_c and BingoBoingo fruitful and efficient proceedings !

~ 25 minutes ~

15:12

http://ossasepia.com/2019/12/24/some-gothic-fashions-of-another-era/ << Ossa Sepia -- Some Gothic Fashions of Another Era

~ 56 minutes ~

16:08

mats: are you in tw nao ? or hk ?

16:13

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-12-24#1004336 << miami baccilus is slow but patient. the cn gorby is, likely, already rising through the ranks.

16:13

Logged on 2019-12-24 13:27:04 mats: it will be interesting to see how china reacts to this demographics shift, particularly as the current ruling elites - significant # who i believe learned ru as their second lang, as i loosely recall LKY saying once in an interview - age out and the new breed educated in the west and may be en/de/fr second lang speakers, come to power

16:14

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-12-24#1004339 << do they still mutilate their feet ?

16:14

Logged on 2019-12-24 13:53:06 mats: im still getting over how small and young taiwanese (well, asians) in general look, i guess i got trained on bigger models in usa. one chick i know who is about 5ft7in and maybe 120lbs had been referred to as fat three times within my earshot and its kinda still mind boggling, like the idealised tw woman is actually a 90lbs female that looks 14y/o

16:14

in tw for a couple months

16:14

a.

16:14

and god no they dont do that anymore, been decades

16:17

id be surprised if theres anyone alive who experienced it

16:21

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=8966942 youngest one was 79 in ‘07, maybe shes still around

~ 35 minutes ~

16:56

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-12-24#1004343 << iirc all bots save for mp's were subj. to randomized trade delay . so whatever crumbs you made, were 'casino winning'

16:56

Logged on 2019-12-24 14:39:58 adlai: even if you claim that scalpl traded only against other scripts... e pur si muove?

16:58

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-12-24#1004344 << oblig >> http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-05-22#1915130

16:58

Logged on 2019-12-24 14:43:59 adlai: e.g., let's say mircea ran a dozen bots on dummy accounts, just for fun, to livetest trading algorithms; leaving these running, after a feedback-suppression bot has arrived, is rather like an animal looking at a bleeding cut and saying, "the bloodflow is quite negligible, maybe i'll send platelets tomorrow"

16:58

(trilema) 2019-05-22 asciilifeform: ( there was a fascinating film clip i once saw, where raccoon was shot in the spine, in such a way that only bottom half paralyzed; and he happily attempted to eat own spilled guts. i could not help but remember rms and his 'toe jam'... )

17:00

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2019-12-24#1004345 << in all seriousness, fella was many things, but not fool. erry crumb you ate off his table, corresponds to him having eaten a kg of cake.

17:00

Logged on 2019-12-24 14:44:57 adlai: i guess mircea is just so unimaginably rich that mike_c's hundred-and-change btc is pocket lint, and my meagre takings ... the lint from the pocket lint's pocket

17:00

and, as the pokerists like to say, 'if you don't know who at the table is the fool...'

17:05

adlai: if it aint a seekret : what's the answer if you divide ( coin earned by yer bot ) / ( hours taken to write it ) ?

17:05

and include 'hours to operate' in the denominator.

17:07

*

asciilifeform presently suspects that 'scalpl' was adlai's version of asciilifeform's 2011 'write fpga miner'. i.e. smaller roi than picking up pennies on train station.

17:13

adlai: this is why 'humanities' folx, e.g. mp, have their 'engineers -- lunatics' . 'wai fuck around with computer, when you can go set up a pyramid scheme, or open a bordello, or hit people in alley on the head with a club ?'

17:14

there's no 'logical' counter to this, except to point out that all of their toys, incl. the iron spikes on the club, are products of said 'lunacy'.

~ 18 minutes ~

17:32

adlai: re the 'pocket lint' -- the central 'bug' in bitcoin ( that apparently no one gives a rat's arse about any moar, but it remains ) is that ~100% of the actual commerce ( in physical goods, services, errything other than machinations ) is merely lint-of-pocket-lint in comparison to the 'early stashes' .

~ 2 hours 1 minutes ~

19:34

http://qntra.net/2019/12/trump-signs-bill-vastly-increasing-us-military-personnel-costs-as-capability-keeps-declining/ << Qntra -- Trump Signs Bill Vastly Increasing US Military Personnel Costs As Capability Keeps Declining

~ 3 hours 8 minutes ~

22:42

http://trinque.org/2019/12/24/ruin/ << trinque -- Ruin

~ 42 minutes ~

23:25

So lightning network is powered by sparks of static electricity in dry and powdery dusty lint-of-pocket-lint. Got it.

23:25

shinohai: remind me what 'lightning network' is ( was ) ?

23:26

i seem to recall that it was an altcoin

23:26

it's the "layer" atop prb that allows instant microtx's

23:27

shinohai: how does it plug into btc tho ?

23:30

it only works because of the multisig gavinism ... you make addy using that method and both put random btc amount there, then supposedly you have "open trust channel" with that addy 4 lyfe

23:31

(to best of shinohai's understanding, a fake ledger of some sort records these pseudo-tx's then broadcasts them to main chain after fact.)

23:32

*

asciilifeform looks at own ancient notes, sees 'i-cant-believe-it-aint-btc altcoin, elaborately complex shellgame of pseudocrypto', apparently i broke teeth at one pt trying to unravel how/what it was supposed to do

23:33

shinohai: what's the contention tho ? that 'over 9000' btc of 'actualcommerce' happen on it erry

23:33

minute ?

23:33

how would one determine this with naked eye ? (i.e. distinguish from scenario where 5 prb artists generate ~100% of the traffic) ?

23:34

esp. given that whole pt of the thing seems to be '0 cost traffic'

23:36

muh scalability i guess

23:44

shinohai: iirc thing also relied on the 'nlocktime' softfork lulz .

23:44

(trilema) 2016-12-30 asciilifeform: the fallthrough case is 'true'.

23:46

to return to thread : shinohai i dun see how this lulzcoin is arg against 'lint hypothesis'.

23:49

It isn't argument, it's lulzcoin mirror of how *folx keep recreating lint*

23:52

shinohai: not simply arbitrary 'folx', but specifically continuation of nsa attempt ( of which hearn was public face ) to turn bitcoin into an item where 2 boxes actually forced to exchange packets directly for their operators to transact

23:53

( and as bonus, attempts also to introduce promisetronics-powered fractional reserve into coin supply )

23:55