Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2022-07-20 | 2022-07-22 → ↓
05:24 gregorynyssa thimbronion: I sent some messages to your Pest station but they are not going through.
05:24 gregorynyssa thimbronion: did you set my username to: gregorynyssa
05:25 gregorynyssa thimbronion: if the messages come from a different address/port, does your station update the address/port within its records?
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05:27 gregorynyssa thimbronion: or does it reject the message?
05:30 gregorynyssa asciilifeform: when the red packet is encrypted using CBC, is the initialization-vector an array of sixteen zero-bytes?
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~ 44 minutes ~
06:14 gregorynyssa asciilifeform: also, could you send me your peering details?
06:15 gregorynyssa asciilifeform: as mentioned above to "thimbronion," my username is: gregorynyssa
~ 3 hours 38 minutes ~
09:53 thimbronion gregorynyssa: yes that is the handle I have set for you
09:54 thimbronion gregorynyssa: I currently have no address configured for you, but it should update automatically upon receipt of a packet from your station.
~ 37 minutes ~
10:32 gregorynyssa thimbronion: does the log at http://share.alethepedia.com/blatta/logs/current show Martian and stale packets which are received?
10:33 gregorynyssa thimbronion: I tried to send some more packets to you just now.
~ 1 hours 11 minutes ~
11:45 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-21#1111903 << per spec, oughta
11:45 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-21 05:25:11 gregorynyssa: thimbronion: if the messages come from a different address/port, does your station update the address/port within its records?
11:45 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-21#1111905 << plz see spec.
11:45 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-21 05:29:56 gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: when the red packet is encrypted using CBC, is the initialization-vector an array of sixteen zero-bytes?
11:56 thimbronion gregorynyssa: it should but there's a lot of GETDATA spam from crtdaydream's smalpest client
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~ 1 hours 49 minutes ~
13:45 jonsykkel why hasnt somone writen a lisp to ada translator so u dont have to write that retarded syntax and also get macros and shit
13:47 jonsykkel or rather, ass-expression to ada
13:47 asciilifeform jonsykkel: leaving aside the lulz re translators -- what concretely do you find barfy re ada syntax ?
13:48 asciilifeform jonsykkel: it aint using sexprs + macros for a reason. wasn't built w/ objective of 'minimize # of letters on page' but for extreme obviousness of what $routine does to a reader on 1st pass
13:49 jonsykkel asciilifeform: too much visual noise, function to add a+b is 200lines, gotta duplicate function names and other stuff everywhere
13:49 jonsykkel its a pain to read
13:50 jonsykkel indeed but it has the opposite effect imo
13:50 asciilifeform jonsykkel: take e.g. this. really, pain to read ?
13:51 jonsykkel not the worst example
13:51 asciilifeform jonsykkel: point to where pain to read in yer lights
13:52 jonsykkel nowhere in specific, just takes more letters than necessary to express nearly anything
13:52 * asciilifeform will point out that n00bs almost invariably find sexprs pain to read, until practiced
13:52 asciilifeform jonsykkel: show concretely where you'd like 'fewer letters' in there
13:53 asciilifeform ( and w/out losing any lang features, e.g. subtypes )
13:53 jonsykkel use brackets of some sort instead of begin/end
13:53 jonsykkel and just ) isntead of "end loop"
13:53 asciilifeform so jonsykkel's objection is strictly 'not sexpr' eh
13:54 asciilifeform {} is imho retarded, makes trivial to write ambiguous soup
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13:54 jonsykkel not really, but that function could be 10lines instead of 58
13:55 * asciilifeform considers the pascalistic begins/ends moar readable than for(..){.. soup
13:55 asciilifeform as did the ada authors, evidently.
13:56 jonsykkel wel, i htink with any syntax you end up interpreting by the indentation anyway
13:57 asciilifeform rright but c aficionados chronically abuse indentation
13:57 jonsykkel so begin/end is just more unneccesary symbols to ignore
13:59 jonsykkel c avocados do lots of stupid shit indeed, one can just not imitate
13:59 asciilifeform down the path of 'plz fewer letters on screen and errything in 1ln!' lies perlism
14:00 jonsykkel perl makes mistake of making shortcuts for shit u use once a year
14:00 jonsykkel is a diffrent story for brackets
14:01 asciilifeform jonsykkel would prolly like apl
14:02 jonsykkel hehe, messed around with it a bit couple of weeks ago
14:02 jonsykkel smart stuf
~ 2 hours 2 minutes ~
16:05 gregorynyssa asciilifeform: I don't see the answer to my question in the section about red packets.
16:06 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: '16 bytes of garbage, exclusively for use as cipher nonce; obtained from a hardware TRNG where possible. This value is not used for any purpose following decryption.'
16:06 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: where didja get yer notion re 16 zeros ?
16:08 * asciilifeform suspects that gregorynyssa's confusion stems from having worked w/ aes , where there is an explicit init vector. in serpent, there aint one. the 'nonce' referred to in pest spec simply sits down as the 1st 16byte block.
16:08 gregorynyssa asciilifeform: the way that CBC was explained to me, you have a 16 byte buffer against which you XOR the first sixteen bytes of the plaintext.
16:09 gregorynyssa asciilifeform: you are correct. I am thinking about how AES is done.
16:09 asciilifeform aha, suspected
16:10 gregorynyssa so XOR is not applied to the first 16 bytes of the plaintext?
16:10 gregorynyssa but the second 16 bytes of the plaintext is XORed with the first 16 bytes of the ciphertext?
16:11 gregorynyssa * are XORed
16:13 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: if yer looking at blatta src, it is confusing in this respect, thimbronion in fact pasted in an implementation 'serpent_cbc_encrypt/decrypt' that takes an 'iv' defaulting to 0 (and never sets it), but does start msg with the nonce per spec (so in fact works out logically to correct algo)
16:14 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: see in his 'serpent.py'.
16:16 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: the point of cbc is to prevent a situation where 2 identical plaintexts (or identical subsets thereof) end up as identical ciphertexts (or subsets thereof)
16:18 asciilifeform a working rng will produce given string of 16 bytes a 2nd time some time after being hit by over9000 meteorites and sun burns out twice
16:20 * asciilifeform must bbl
~ 32 minutes ~
16:52 gregorynyssa the encrypting function of Blatta and of my implementation produce the same output.
16:52 gregorynyssa I ran them side-by-side jus tnow.
16:52 gregorynyssa * just now
16:52 gregorynyssa so it looks like encryption was not the source of the problem.
~ 1 hours 20 minutes ~
18:13 gregorynyssa asciilifeform: I would like to try to add your station as a peer.
18:17 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-21#1111934 << in my mind, the keyword-heavy languages represent a more classical worldview.
18:17 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-21 13:54:03 asciilifeform: {} is imho retarded, makes trivial to write ambiguous soup
18:18 gregorynyssa the curly-brace languages (and later, the indentation-sensitive languages) are Countercultural.
~ 52 minutes ~
19:11 jonsykkel http://zzz.st/up/JP1D5smH/
19:11 jonsykkel not that readable either lol
19:11 jonsykkel but u can at least determine in 0ns what is structure and what is not
19:11 jonsykkel cuz evry line is not
19:17 jonsykkel maybe problem can be "solved" by coloring "end *" lines almost invisible in editor
~ 32 minutes ~
19:50 asciilifeform jonsykkel: it aint that it's unreadable, as such. but sorta whole point of sexprs/homoiconicity is macros, 'code as data', etc. and these features are quite deliberately not in ada, where objective is 'utterly obvious what this does on 1st pass of eyes' rather than aesthetics or fewer-letters
19:51 * asciilifeform doesn't see great win from somehow bolting sexpr notation to sumthing other than a lisp, it creates a strong expectation of lispiness where none exists (or wants to) and would frustrate, imho, greatly
19:54 asciilifeform it aint so diff from, say, bolting the yoke from a cessna to yer toyota. it aint aboutta fly, and the added degree of freedom adds little but distraction
19:57 jonsykkel indeed macroism was other half of the point
19:57 jonsykkel i get the utterly obvious what code does by looking at it arg, but no macros in large progy invariably means writing same paterns over and over
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19:57 jonsykkel my toyota wont fly but it will go faster and be more comfy ride
~ 21 minutes ~
20:18 gregorynyssa asciilifeform: jonsykkel: the Nim language is heavily imperative but has strong macro-support.
20:19 gregorynyssa jonsykkel: are you running your own station? would you like to be peers with me?
20:20 jonsykkel gregorynyssa: sure leme genkey
20:21 gregorynyssa jonsykkel: I wish that I could have written a native implementation like yours, but programming without GC is too hard, so I used Java.
20:21 jonsykkel gregorynyssa: cool, is readable anywhere?
20:23 gregorynyssa jonsykkel: I will upload it later. "asciilifeform" can add the link to his blog-post if he wants.
20:25 jonsykkel aight
20:25 jonsykkel http://zzz.st/up/ODzKypBb/gregorynyssa.asc
20:25 jonsykkel peering info ^
20:33 jonsykkel nim doesnt sexpr, is it even posible to have proper macro wihtout it
20:35 jonsykkel in case it was unclear upstack, idea was that u hav macros that execute as lisp but transform the ada ast rather than lisp ast
20:35 gregorynyssa jonsykkel: if I send you a message, will it appear in the "pest" section of logs.nosuchlabs.com?
20:35 jonsykkel gregorynyssa: should yes, since ur within pestradius of logger
20:36 gregorynyssa jonsykkel: then it looks like my message did not go through. there is something wrong with the UDP section of the code.
20:36 jonsykkel i saw your helloworld in my console
20:36 jonsykkel but not in logs for som reason indeed
20:37 gregorynyssa jonsykkel: oh, nice. we are making progress.
20:38 gregorynyssa perhaps the logger ignores people who are not on a whitelist.
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20:38 gregorynyssa billymg: you are the author of the logger, is that right? can you confirm whether this is the case?
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~ 24 minutes ~
21:02 gregorynyssa jonsykkel: homoiconism (S expressions) makes it easier to implement macros, but such is not required.
21:03 gregorynyssa jonsykkel: all you need for a macro-system is the ability for a program to access its own abstract syntax-tree.
21:06 jonsykkel true, but you get this https://nim-lang.org/docs/macros.html rather than "macro is same as function but returns ast that gets substituted for the macro invocation by compiler"
21:07 gregorynyssa Rust might allow for finer-graind manipulation of the AST than Nim.
21:07 gregorynyssa but I agree that macros without homoiconism are not elegant.
21:09 gregorynyssa jonsykkel: asciilifeform: I divide programming languages into four categories based on syntax:
21:09 gregorynyssa (1) the ALGOL family which is good at I/O
21:10 gregorynyssa (2) the LISP family which is good at macros
21:10 gregorynyssa (3) the ML family which is good at partial evaluation
21:10 gregorynyssa (4) the APL family which has access to implicit iteration
21:10 gregorynyssa these are four important features, but each suited to a particular syntax.
21:11 jonsykkel is there a particular reason lisp family couldnt be good at io?
21:12 gregorynyssa the LISP family is not bad at I/O, but the statement/expression distinction make sense in the context of side-effects.
21:12 gregorynyssa also, ALGOL-like programs have a backbone of statements which avoids deep nesting.
21:14 gregorynyssa LISP syntax is not conceived from the ground up with I/O in mind, as ALGOL-style syntax is.
21:18 jonsykkel lisp does force you to code in diagonal right-down direction
21:19 gregorynyssa yep. the right-down motion is a major inconvenience IMO.
~ 44 minutes ~
22:04 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-21#1111999 << nope
22:04 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-21 20:38:14 gregorynyssa: perhaps the logger ignores people who are not on a whitelist.
22:05 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-21#1111980 << rather curious which 'over and over patterns' appear concretely in ffa and annoy jonsykkel
22:05 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-21 19:57:26 jonsykkel: i get the utterly obvious what code does by looking at it arg, but no macros in large progy invariably means writing same paterns over and over
22:05 asciilifeform and also curious whether jonsykkel at least abstractly grasps the tension b/w macrology and 'obv. to eyes on 1st pass'
22:10 jonsykkel ffa isnt large progy in my bok, wasnt talking about it specifically, and found no such paterns in it
22:11 asciilifeform jonsykkel: so lol then, objection is re some abstract adaism sumwhere unspecifiedly else ?
22:11 jonsykkel im thinking in context of very large progys that i plan to write
22:12 asciilifeform jonsykkel: asciilifeform suspects that when you go and write 'very large program', suddenly 'readable on 1st pass' will start to seem like a win. esp. say 6mo later
22:13 jonsykkel i understand macroing makes code less readable but it also makes less code to read which makes exponential difrence in large progy
22:14 jonsykkel or, "less directly runnable in head" rather than "less readable"
22:14 asciilifeform depends muchly on the proggy
22:16 jonsykkel ive writen very large progys in c and ran into limit inherent to lack of macro
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22:25 asciilifeform jonsykkel not fond of c macrology ?
22:25 jonsykkel lol
22:26 gregorynyssa asciilifeform: it is rather hard to write a C macro which does not have invalid corner-cases.
22:26 asciilifeform noshit
22:27 gregorynyssa I always wondered, why has no one created a version of C with AST-based macros,
22:27 gregorynyssa or for that matter, a version of C which has sum-types.
22:27 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: 'lipstick on sow'
22:31 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-21#1112030 << some people strongly advocate the use of ML-style modules/functors to solve this problem.
22:31 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-21 22:15:50 jonsykkel: ive writen very large progys in c and ran into limit inherent to lack of macro
22:32 gregorynyssa do you have any experience with modules/functors?
22:32 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: asciilifeform consults for a co where this. has own problems.
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22:32 jonsykkel no idea wat those are
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22:32 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-21#1112041 << ah, nice.
22:32 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-21 22:32:15 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: asciilifeform consults for a co where this. has own problems.
22:32 jonsykkel i will look into
22:33 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-21#1112042 << never used them myself. I only read them from books such as Robin Milner's.
22:33 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-21 22:32:19 jonsykkel: no idea wat those are
22:33 asciilifeform all kindsa things seem over9000 appealing until you find yerself actually using'em
22:33 gregorynyssa so are you using ML at work?
22:33 asciilifeform ( or, conversely, also there exist things which seem revolting until try using and then see why the builder did it. e.g. ada )
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22:34 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: not ml per se, but an in-house 'ml-esque' concoction
22:34 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-21#1112050 << Ada isn't surprising to anyone familiar with the Dijkstra/Wirth school of thought
22:34 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-21 22:33:43 asciilifeform: ( or, conversely, also there exist things which seem revolting until try using and then see why the builder did it. e.g. ada )
22:35 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: rright but you have folx (incl. asciilifeform circa '15) who 'ugh verbose, fucking bureaucrats, where are my {{{}}}'
22:35 asciilifeform then at some pt see what the 'verbose' actually solves and what the 'useless' lang features actually do
~ 43 minutes ~
23:19 vex http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-21#1010265 <i've done some of this, hanging off a ladder with a 14 inch diamond blade with all the newton metres. remediating the action of time in old stonework by gluing in high tensile helical rod. works a treat
23:19 bitbot (pest) 2022-07-21 phf[awt]: *victorian
23:25 vex remoulding old ceilings, good fun
23:29 vex gotta get em cheap tho, dress down for the auction and get good and drunk
23:31 vex I can just imagine alfies rusted up f150 with the crane screeching up late. "winning bid"!
23:32 vex I'll come along
23:37 vex I can't really scowl, but the other bidders might be confused by my idiotic grin
23:42 vex wait, i've missed the point. a victorian homestead in the applecacians isn't sydney
23:50 * vex rexperiences the dream where he had to drive to sweden.
23:55 vex I prefer to be at sea level. I don't trust anyoneelks
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