00:11 |
xristos |
hey lisp oldtimer, pls don't ban me |
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↖ |
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~ 55 minutes ~ |
01:07 |
verisimilitude |
Who here is the oldtimer? |
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~ 7 hours 33 minutes ~ |
08:40 |
shinohai |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-01#1034922 << Welcome xristos ... do you have a blog or personal website? |
08:40 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-05-01 00:11:42 xristos: hey lisp oldtimer, pls don't ban me |
08:45 |
xristos |
shinohai: i do but somehow i ended up in the wrong channel, my apologies ;p |
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~ 2 hours 42 minutes ~ |
11:28 |
asciilifeform |
lol |
11:29 |
asciilifeform |
$ticker btc usd |
11:29 |
btcinfobot |
Current BTC price in USD: $57067.58 |
11:29 |
asciilifeform |
!w poll |
11:29 |
watchglass |
Polling 15 nodes... |
11:29 |
watchglass |
185.85.38.54:8333 : Could not connect! |
11:29 |
watchglass |
185.163.46.29:8333 : Could not connect! |
11:29 |
watchglass |
205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.022s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=681378 |
11:29 |
watchglass |
205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=681378 |
11:29 |
watchglass |
108.31.170.100:8333 : (pool-108-31-170-100.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.105s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=681378 (Operator: asciilifeform) |
11:29 |
watchglass |
205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=681266 |
11:29 |
watchglass |
54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.175s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=681378 |
11:29 |
watchglass |
205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.144s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=681378 (Operator: whaack) |
11:29 |
watchglass |
192.151.158.26:8333 : Alive: (0.145s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=681378 |
11:29 |
watchglass |
143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.228s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=681378 |
11:29 |
watchglass |
208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.222s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=681378 |
11:30 |
watchglass |
84.16.46.130:8333 : Violated BTC Protocol: Bad header length! |
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~ 1 hours 15 minutes ~ |
12:45 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-03-02#1032672 << this is just fascinating, and coincides in some respects with my own theories. |
12:45 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-03-02 12:22:32 asciilifeform: ru writer alex rosov takes the thesis further -- he gives (fairly solid) argument that a decision was made (by bluebloods of 'civilized' world) in 1968 to halt technical progress. ( and, consequently, to nail sovok, because otherwise it'll eat'em, not having 'gotten the memo' that r&d must stop ) |
12:46 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-03-02#1032666 << any evidence of this? I was researching a similar subject, so I find this fascinating. |
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12:46 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-03-02 12:18:20 asciilifeform: trinque: near as i can tell, the folx who ~factually~ run usa (vs. the muppets who get trotted out for 'elections') are 5+ generation bluebloods |
12:51 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-03-02#1032676 << if I may say so, I regard white Americans to be their own, newly formed ethnic group, similar to the Boers of South Africa. |
12:51 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-03-02 12:26:05 trinque: at any rate, my contention is that race is one of the mechanisms by which they pit white kulaks against lower tiers. |
12:54 |
gregorynyssa |
IMO the sooner they can admit this, and stop claiming to represent white people or Western society at large, the better for all parties involved. |
12:55 |
gregorynyssa |
as "Neo Saxons" they deserve the right, like every other ethnicity, to fight for their survival and collective interests, etc. |
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13:00 |
gregorynyssa |
unlike the Boers, the "Neo Saxons" of America still have the plurality/majority of population, and, in many states, clear majority. |
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~ 32 minutes ~ |
13:33 |
trinque |
gregorynyssa: you think this "white american" identity stays whole for a historically relevant amount of time? |
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13:33 |
trinque |
I'm skeptical, as I said in linked thread. |
13:35 |
trinque |
imho the erosion of that foundational myth is a prime cause of current american instability. |
13:38 |
trinque |
when I look at california, pacnw, texas, the southeast, new england, the midwest, I see completely distinct places which will fracture when the BRRRRRR holding them together runs out. |
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~ 22 minutes ~ |
14:01 |
verisimilitude |
It's lasting despite all of the work so far to destroy it. |
14:03 |
verisimilitude |
When I look at ``World Star'', affectionately known as ``Worl' Sta, Worl' Sta'', I see a group which no amount of money can make behave. |
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~ 49 minutes ~ |
14:53 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-01#1034956 << IIRC regional cultures are less fractured than before. |
14:53 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-05-01 13:38:12 trinque: when I look at california, pacnw, texas, the southeast, new england, the midwest, I see completely distinct places which will fracture when the BRRRRRR holding them together runs out. |
14:54 |
gregorynyssa |
the southern Midwest eg. Kansas, Missouri, Iowa (I am from Midwest, but northern half) and South used to be enemies |
14:55 |
gregorynyssa |
today they are both considered "red states." see each other as kin. worship at same churches. |
14:57 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-01#1034953 << that is, on a structural level, the purpose of the Alt Right, even if they are reluctant to admit it. |
14:57 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-05-01 13:33:23 trinque: gregorynyssa: you think this "white american" identity stays whole for a historically relevant amount of time? |
14:59 |
gregorynyssa |
do you think Alt Right is dying? I think it is getting stronger. |
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15:01 |
verisimilitude |
Going further, it's natural for races to show animosity towards the others; will the technologies which have been shown able to inhibit this, such as television, stay for a historically relevant amount of time? |
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~ 20 minutes ~ |
15:21 |
trinque |
verisimilitude: your /pol/ sense of race is nonsense ftr. |
15:22 |
trinque |
spouted like someone looking for a reason to be noteworthy, lacking any other. |
15:23 |
trinque |
gregorynyssa: what evidence is there that it's getting stronger? |
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15:25 |
trinque |
upstack, what's the evidence for a coherent "it"? |
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15:27 |
verisimilitude |
I don't visit 4chan's /pol/. Historically, different peoples don't get along unless they're of similar strengths. |
15:27 |
verisimilitude |
There are exceptions, sure. |
15:28 |
verisimilitude |
Anyway, I'd rather discuss programming, so I abstain from the rest of this. |
15:29 |
trinque |
gregorynyssa: taking the capitol riots as an example, that's evidence, if anything, of the severe decline of the US, not the strength of anything else. |
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↖ ↖ |
15:32 |
* |
trinque will brb, but this thread has been discussed since the days of the other alt-right thing that wasn't going anywhere, for the same reasons. |
15:33 |
trinque |
strikes me as the armchair hopes that someone else, somewhere, is doing something, rather than oneself. |
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↖ |
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~ 15 minutes ~ |
15:48 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-01#1034974 << the Capitol riot wasn't among my list of considerations. |
15:48 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-05-01 15:29:32 trinque: gregorynyssa: taking the capitol riots as an example, that's evidence, if anything, of the severe decline of the US, not the strength of anything else. |
15:48 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-01#1034969 << Baby Boomers are dying. |
15:48 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-05-01 15:23:03 trinque: gregorynyssa: what evidence is there that it's getting stronger? |
15:49 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-01#1034970 << shared beliefs, such as Alt Right's rejection of "mind body dualism," desire to apply Evolutionary theory to everyday problems, appropriation of Nietzschean thought. |
15:49 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-05-01 15:25:03 trinque: upstack, what's the evidence for a coherent "it"? |
15:52 |
trinque |
where! |
15:53 |
trinque |
boomers dying are being replaced by whining millenials; what nietzschean thought |
15:54 |
shinohai |
Re: this thread, I personally think nation that is obsessed with race/gender identity et all is sure sign of empire in sharp decline. |
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15:54 |
trinque |
shinohai: "shit, nothing distinguishes us, and there's less to go around" |
15:54 |
shinohai |
(tm) (r) |
15:56 |
trinque |
gregorynyssa: I would like to know how you arrive at "alt right rejects mind-body dualism" |
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↖ |
15:57 |
trinque |
most of them are spouting what christian gargle they can find written on walmart kitsch |
15:58 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-01#1034988 << Curtis Yarvin denounced it several times. |
15:58 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-05-01 15:56:26 trinque: gregorynyssa: I would like to know how you arrive at "alt right rejects mind-body dualism" |
15:58 |
gregorynyssa |
So has Vox Day, Richard Spencer, Jordan Peterson. |
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15:59 |
gregorynyssa |
* so have ... |
16:00 |
trinque |
I do not see anyone with significant power on that liast. |
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↖ |
16:00 |
trinque |
*list |
16:01 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-01#1034994 << that is because all senior leadership-positions are held by Baby Boomers. |
16:01 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-05-01 16:00:33 trinque: I do not see anyone with significant power on that liast. |
16:01 |
gregorynyssa |
but in another decade, they will be gone. |
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16:02 |
trinque |
this generation that sits politely waiting for its turn is the same one invoking nietzsche? |
16:02 |
trinque |
I'm reminded of the servile relationship between gen-x and the boomers |
16:03 |
trinque |
take peterson, almost killed himself with anxiety meds. |
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↖ |
16:03 |
feedbot |
http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2021/jwrd-logs-for-May-2021/ << Fixpoint -- #jwrd Logs for May 2021 |
16:03 |
trinque |
spencer's been doing a fat lot of nothing but larping and promoting his "brand" for decades |
16:03 |
gregorynyssa |
fair points. |
16:04 |
trinque |
since we're discussing nietzsche, until man accepts that he's doomed, stop crying, deal with it, etc., he'll hide in the fog of derealization. |
16:05 |
gregorynyssa |
I think it is worth noting that SJW thought is itself based on a body of assumptions which are not quite Christian, and not quite Atheist. |
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16:05 |
trinque |
all of it is hiding from the encounter with one's own end. |
16:05 |
gregorynyssa |
SJW thought is closely tied to the milieu in which the Baby Boomers grew up. |
16:06 |
trinque |
either mother socialism comforts the badthought away, or fetish-of-power larping distracts, same shit. |
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↖ |
16:06 |
gregorynyssa |
without the Baby Boomers, it is going to fall apart. |
16:06 |
trinque |
absent moving past the fundamental problem, it'll be same shit, different flavor. |
16:06 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-01#1035009 << are you suggesting, on a literal level, that people become Lefists in order to cope with the fear of death? |
16:06 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-05-01 16:06:03 trinque: either mother socialism comforts the badthought away, or fetish-of-power larping distracts, same shit. |
16:07 |
trinque |
no, they become whatever best distractst them. |
16:07 |
trinque |
*distracts |
16:07 |
trinque |
bleh, shitty apple keyboard. |
16:09 |
trinque |
the alt-right return to "traditional thought" - as they perceive it - is itself cargo-cultism for w/e made grandfather less afraid than grandson |
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↖ ↖ |
16:09 |
trinque |
grandfather's metaphysical world broke in ways grandson is incapable reassembling on the same terms. |
16:10 |
gregorynyssa |
would you mind going into more detail? how did it break? |
16:11 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-01#1035017 << IMO there is no single body of "traditional thought" because people in old times also vigorously argued about what was right and wrong. |
16:11 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-05-01 16:09:02 trinque: the alt-right return to "traditional thought" - as they perceive it - is itself cargo-cultism for w/e made grandfather less afraid than grandson |
16:12 |
gregorynyssa |
I noticed a distrubing trend that when people say they value "Western traditional thought" without qualification, they basically just mean that they are huge fans of Thomas Carlyle. |
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↖ ↖ |
16:13 |
trinque |
there was certainly at one point traditional western thought, rooted upon the romans and greeks. |
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↖ |
16:13 |
trinque |
at any rate, I'm referring to the alt-right's memberberries, not the truth or falseness of said memberberries. |
16:14 |
trinque |
the "it" is the atomic self standing before eternal god ever-approaching final judgment |
16:15 |
trinque |
that being one of possibly innumerable operating systems a person may run. |
16:15 |
gregorynyssa |
http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-01#1035023 << Carroll Quigley and Oswald Spengler both argued that Western civilization excludes Classical. it started with the Dark Ages, and merely appropriated Classical elements on a superficial level. |
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16:15 |
snsabot |
Logged on 2021-05-01 16:13:10 trinque: there was certainly at one point traditional western thought, rooted upon the romans and greeks. |
16:16 |
trinque |
really beside the point, this. |
16:17 |
trinque |
the genesis of the atomic self is recorded in early greek writing, parminedes? discussed by heidegger in What is Called Thinking |
16:18 |
trinque |
anyhow briefly, I say that the self contemplated here, eternal, singular, has broken. |
16:19 |
trinque |
and cannot be put back together, based as it was upon the inevitable approach to final judgment. |
16:20 |
trinque |
we brought up nietzsche; here he is. |
16:22 |
gregorynyssa |
so is everyone in modern society broken in this way, or only those who have lost faith in God? |
16:22 |
gregorynyssa |
trinque: interesting way of phrasing the problem, regardless. |
16:23 |
trinque |
ever read The Origin of Consciousness by Jaynes? |
16:24 |
gregorynyssa |
trinque: yep. |
16:24 |
trinque |
proponent of the bicameral hypothesis of mind. for the purposes of this thread, I'm only interested in making reference to there being evidence of mental operating systems preceding atomic ego-self |
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↖ |
16:25 |
trinque |
recall he discusses when the Assyrian gods fell silent? |
16:25 |
gregorynyssa |
of course. |
16:25 |
trinque |
I would like to meet the person for whom YHWH has not fallen silent. |
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↖ ↖ |
16:26 |
gregorynyssa |
trinque: you think this shift happened in the last 100-200 years? |
16:27 |
trinque |
over about that length of time, yes |
16:31 |
gregorynyssa |
I considered there as being two major shifts in values, though not on the "bicameral mind" scale. |
16:32 |
trinque |
which are those? |
16:32 |
gregorynyssa |
one in the late 1600s, and one in the 1960s. |
16:33 |
trinque |
1600 being protestantism, or something else? |
16:33 |
gregorynyssa |
late 1600s is the transition from Puritanism to Hobbes/Locke/Enlightenment. |
16:34 |
gregorynyssa |
it also coincides with the closing of Germany's Age of Lutheran Orthodoxy in favor of Pietism. |
16:35 |
gregorynyssa |
also coincides with rise of Freemasonry. |
16:36 |
trinque |
rise of the belief that one's own faculties can apprehend truth is exactly what killed western metaphysics. |
16:37 |
trinque |
"I had no need of that hypothesis." |
16:38 |
gregorynyssa |
yep. the curse of Empiricism. |
16:39 |
gregorynyssa |
now, 1960s - leftward swing of Hippie movement is IMO just tip of iceberg. |
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↖ |
16:40 |
trinque |
to be clear, what can't stand to reason has to go, whether it's jesus or your identity, doesn't matter. |
16:40 |
trinque |
anyhow continue |
16:40 |
gregorynyssa |
Carroll Quigley and Leonard Shlain both support the idea that around 1960s there were fundamental changes in way of thinking. |
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↖ |
16:42 |
gregorynyssa |
jarring transition of Americans in clothing and way of talking are consequences of this transition, but not the transition itself. |
16:43 |
gregorynyssa |
Quigley, Shlain both suggest that a sort of "nonverbal communication renaissance" (my term, not theirs) occurred during this time. |
16:44 |
trinque |
I'd agree, developmental regression society-wide |
16:45 |
gregorynyssa |
people suddenly became much more sensitive to nonverbal communication. standards for "reading" people increased. |
16:45 |
trinque |
people began losing the ability to relate to one another. |
16:46 |
gregorynyssa |
trinque: I would say, people, including very educated people, became less reliant on literary language to express themselves. |
16:46 |
trinque |
one could discuss cold war psychosis, the effect of drugs, television, or just easy life in the wake of a war won. |
16:46 |
trinque |
sure, one well-educated can still be decadent. |
16:47 |
gregorynyssa |
Quigley claims that Yankees (ie. WASPs) had focused on "going wide" with friendships. being friends with society at large rather than with particular people. |
16:48 |
gregorynyssa |
but during the 1960s, the focus turned to "going deep," ie. cultivating deep and intimate friendships and relatinoships. |
16:49 |
trinque |
sure, a less charitable rendering is that they got more selfish, less capable of forming larger groups |
16:50 |
gregorynyssa |
I hadn't thought of that. maybe you are right. |
16:51 |
trinque |
being more neurotic, the close relationships they form are more codependent, etc |
16:51 |
trinque |
this trend continues to the atomization of today |
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↖ ↖ |
16:52 |
gregorynyssa |
='\ |
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~ 1 hours 21 minutes ~ |
18:14 |
verisimilitude |
I'll be doing some Ada programming today, the first I've done in months; what of you? |
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~ 43 minutes ~ |
18:58 |
shinohai |
verisimilitude: whatcha programming in Ada ? |
19:03 |
verisimilitude |
I discuss it in the final paragraph here. |
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~ 4 hours 24 minutes ~ |
23:27 |
verisimilitude |
Ada is the most exhausting programming language I know. |
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↖ |