#trilema | 2019-12-30

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-29#1956202 << not necessarily, what i meant was, "everything is first read, then the ints are fixed, then it's read some more, then all the shit is taken out, bit by [http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2019/draft-gbw-node-s

09:19

chema/?b=Compared&e=be#select][bit], then eventually a small pile of actually useful and working code is left behind, implementing 108% or so of what the old pile actually did while removing 98% or so of what it had no business doing"

09:19

Logged on 2019-12-29 13:49:02 trinque: mircea_popescu: does this mean "everything is always built and installed" ?

09:19

lobbesbot

Logged on 2017-02-21 21:53:17: <mircea_popescu> now, eulora DID move away from broken ints to sane ints during migration to 0.1.2, and i don't know anyone cared enohgh to extensively debug the insanity that is microsoft. so you might have found something. what exactly were those new errors ?

09:19

btw diana_coman there's no ossasepia on the original "holy shit, ints!!" or am i just not finding it ?

09:19

i seem to remember having read something

09:22

mircea_popescu: do you mean the move to int64?

09:22

yep

09:23

hmmmm, let me see but I think it was just a mention in one of those open sores rants

09:23

ah was it ?

09:24

was it on some old blog and never got moved, is that possible ?

09:24

mircea_popescu: that's not possible as the only "old blog not moved" is that thing on wordpress.org that dates from...uhm, 2009/10 ?

09:25

pretty sure i insisted a thing be published at the end of what was a longish march if memory serves, and pretty sure i was gratified in it ; moreover i recall interacting with a nobject

09:25

anyways

09:27

hm, in my memory the int64 kind of merges with eviscerating the gem mess out of the server

09:28

oh was it in there ?

09:28

anyway, to make this pick on diana_coman day : hey, check out http://ossasepia.com/2010/02/08/despre-control-si-recunoasterea-greselilor/?b=invit&e=publica#select

09:29

proiectele de success ale lu' dobi stanca.

09:29

well, technically it was first the move to int64 and then the rest but practically they still overlapped to some degree and the similar pains etc.

09:31

ahahah; that was one of those things where "at least I figure it out quickly enough", lolz

09:31

100% costi rogozanu, 9 articles since sept. basically a 1/100th of a qntra, "trustul realitatea media" (wikilink because notable keks)

09:32

fwiw I went there because of a former friend who kept pulling at me about it; nothing to do with stanca really, never even talked to him ever.

09:32

"Filozofia postului este că evenimentul guvernează programul, astfel încât în orice moment desfășurătorul de emisie poate fi dinamizat cu informații de ultimă oră."

09:32

o god this is fucking beautiful.

09:33

diana_coman, i didn't imagine you had, no. just... you know, my own amusements, what can i say. tara mica da' vesela.

09:33

mircea_popescu: tbh re ints I recall an article on trilema.com - if I can find it now, hm.

09:34

oh, did i put it in some minigame report instead ?!

09:35

mircea_popescu: here?

09:36

imo this is from an earlier stage when the building blocks of what the problem was going to be were still being assembled.

09:36

the "fuck ints" order came iirc 2017

09:37

hmmm, http://ossasepia.com/2018/03/30/my-first-2-years-as-cto-for-minigame/?b=April&e=bits#select

09:37

so dunno, maybe I don't fully get what you have in mind re "fuck ints"?

09:38

hmmm

09:38

no, that's it. so it was 2016 hmmm

09:39

*

diana_coman will bbl

09:39

http://trilema.com/2016/eulorangement/#footnote_0_67304 << this think

09:40

this i think must be it*

09:40

nfi , maybe false memories, what can i say.

09:43

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-29#1956205 << i don't think anyone's proposing all components should be present in all systems. rather, i expect the v-way to do this is end up with a large tree, with some usually-favoured leaves or final branches. the gui/nogui split seems very early, like one of those

09:43

Logged on 2019-12-29 13:51:19 trinque: I agree that there should be single, correct answers when choosing components (as I'm trying to lay out the options for such selection in my series), but not that each component is always present in any system.

09:44

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-29#1956212 << for some reason the proposal there's multiple choice there sits ill with my totalitarian mindset ; but we don't have to argue about it rightnao.

09:45

*

mircea_popescu kicks ossabot

09:45

hey!

09:45

Logged on 2019-12-29 13:57:52 bvt: in this case, i can restate it as 'depends on how current fragments will get composed into one tree'

09:45

*

mircea_popescu always knew kicking mechanisms is legitimate maintenance technique.

09:49

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-29#1956220 << and the only reason this horror passes silently is that ~everyone else who knew lisp well meanwhile took an arrow to the butt and fell back into the swamp.

09:50

Logged on 2019-12-29 17:38:31 whaack: diana_coman: From my experience, for most packages from quicklisp you're going to have problems if you don't have asdf 3+, which comes with sbcl 1.4.14 (not sure what the first version of sbcl with asdf 3+ was)

10:04

"latest and greatest" asdf is exactly like all the other gpg 2.0 - gcc 19.firefox & assorted thunderbirds. and François-René Rideau aka fare is still that infantile dumbass.

10:04

Logged on 2018-01-05 01:21:45 mircea_popescu: https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3129644482406982@naggum.no.html << this exchange with fare is pretty amusing/informative both wrt "who is this francois-rene rideau character ?" and as an early "bitcoin improvements from the sewer" sampler/potputre.

10:04

(sadly, there's a much better example, also in the form of a naggum exchange. it revolves around "common misconceptions" and such typically pantsuitist wooden tongue, but now i can't fucking find it. though i clearly remember discussing it recently(

10:05

https://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3129759496251093@naggum.no.html << ah, here it is!

10:09

in short : i honestly don't think deploying lisp ~at all~ is such a great idea, or should be done.

10:13

this is in part naggum's "in my view, Common Lisp provides _values_ that far exceed what other languages do, but I fully realize that people won't understand this until they have actually experienced the problems that it solves for them. now, what's _really_ sad is that those who want free Common Lisp systems have _not_ seen what the commercial systems provide in just this way, and they will go on to make free Common Li

10:13

sp systems that just _don't_ offer the serious advantages that solid Common Lisp systems do that people can't _afford_ to provide for free." carrying the day with me, but in larger part the actual absence of any serious problem (besides, ~perhaps~, this) we actually could meaningfully use it for. you really don't need lisp to make a blog anymore than you need a

10:13

Logged on 2019-02-17 10:04:58 mircea_popescu: look for yourself, i've never seen such wonders in whole lyf before! http://archive.is/89adR#selection-9.20821-9.21149

10:13

n aircraft carrier to sunbathe.

10:14

and of course fixing c compilation so it's no longer outrageous idiocy "that works" (tm) is precisely not a possible utilization of lisp because the fucking reason it even exist is so as to not have those problems, and so on.

~ 15 minutes ~

10:30

we do indeed need a scripting language, though, and ideally one that doesn't try to fuck us while wife sleeps.

10:34

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-29#1956241 << right. ye recently stated yet nevertheless very olde http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-10#1954792 says hi to http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-08-26#1931212 & friends nao.

10:34

Logged on 2019-12-29 18:01:33 trinque: I'd be willing to abandon lisp for now, seeing as how the usable components incur at least another 400k lines of bloat, and for that you gain yet another javascript ecosystem.

10:34

Logged on 2019-12-10 15:14:42 mp_en_viaje: and in general -- the absentee, the insufficient, the "otherwise busy", the butthurt, physically or mentally -- better pray they're in fact quite as inconsequential as they seem.

10:34

Logged on 2019-08-26 13:49:11 phf: you ought to consider moving here, or at least coming for a visit. the place is a lot livelier than dc, food is better, girls are prettier, things are generally cheaper, etc. etc. etc.

10:34

one irresponsible twit gave himself fatal ulcer, the other and so on.

10:36

naggum for that mattter is being whipped upside down in hell even as we speak, specifically for "wtf did you do with your calling, you schmuck, killed yourself before hearing it ? TAKE IT LIKE A LITTLE BITCH".

10:47

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-29#1956242 << more probably, something like "lisp castrated into scriptlang"; thoguh there's also lua or say tcl...

10:47

Logged on 2019-12-29 18:02:34 trinque: if we were to retain lisp, I'd say pick one, don't have a python alongside it, and don't expect to use much "open source" to help you.

10:48

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-29#1956245 << indeed, ash/bash prolly the way to go. otherwise, "tcl/tk in python as tinkler" hurr durr, god help us.

10:48

Logged on 2019-12-29 18:07:26 trinque: which includes a shell

10:49

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-29#1956251 << pleasant nothing. i bet you if i sit down to read what you've written "in" lisp ima in short order discover you wrote it in python anyway.

10:49

Logged on 2019-12-29 18:12:50 whaack: trinque: First, I find it more pleasant writing in lisp. Second, I like the cultural aspect of a (present day) more niche language. Then for problems with python: i find the single line lambdas a strange requirement, and not having tail call optimization is lame (although i admit i can't think of many/any cases where that's been a problem)

10:49

not to tar you with a well used brush, but it HAS been the experience to date.

10:52

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-29#1956250 << i honestly think it's the right approach. "identify an useful iota of acceptable internal structure and measure everything in that". next step self-obviously being, "once pretty much everything's within the first sigma, take another look at what you mean by acceptable internal structure".

10:52

Logged on 2019-12-29 18:11:26 diana_coman: ahaha, by now I see that trinque will measure everything in multiples of busybox.

10:52

the ratchet, yes ?

10:54

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-29#1956252 << the only practical approach to evicting python for the active diatesis of the logger is to rewrite that part in bash ; which, without an actual decision to do this from now on is imo inexcusably gnarly.

10:54

Logged on 2019-12-29 18:13:10 diana_coman: re paster though tbh this attempt (coming as it does on top of the previous mess with python and its flask) left me looking again for not using either.

10:55

we gotta think this through. and also let's see what jfw says and so on.

10:57

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-29#1956257 << except, of course, for the cultural aspects, amirite.

10:57

Logged on 2019-12-29 18:19:12 trinque: all my tmsr work to date could've been php or pyshits for all the difference it would've made.

11:01

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-29#1956258 << except for the part where lisp code production was never this paste in google / paste from github. this works well for ineptly structured languages like the moroncrowd favours, that are lenghtly verbose and cubical-dweller optimized, loaded with wooden tongue constructrs and in gene

11:01

ral carefully disolving every grain of actual thought into many galons of moosauce (which is what the "go playing" moo-engine even uses to identify "similar" bits "that might interest you")

11:01

Logged on 2019-12-29 18:19:37 whaack: diana_coman: if i search for a piece of lisp code to do something, I have a (perhaps naive) belief that I am more likely to find something well written, since there are fewer people using the language

11:02

traditionally lisp coding consists of spending some time to ~well~ understand your problem ; the internal ast of this digestion is not well fit for language (even though yes, the bleeding edge of human technologies & understandings as represented by trilema

11:02

does indeed dance with these wolves) ; and then once THAT is complete the solution takes five minutes of notation.

11:03

THAT is the great value of lisp, in its classical form as understood by they regarded as luminaries by the "cultural aspects" crowd : that once you're done mentally digesting your problem, the peristalsis is as short and uncumbersome as it can possibly be.

11:06

the main problem (and the reason i don't come across as much of a lisp fan) is that since the 80s complexity exploded significantly ; there's no more space for proto lisp as represented by mel ; nor for the classical lisp as represented by the defunct moron club.

11:09

and what i mean by "there's no more space" is rather a lot in the vein of "you lot chafe and get massively butthurt at even the faintest version of what that world would look like anyone [by which we mean me, for lack of alternatives] can come up with". lisp is a tool for resolving closed problems, not for floating about the endless uncharted seas [http://trilema.com/2014/i-love-rochester-so-will-you/?b=try%20to&e=swim#

11:09

select][on bladders of philosophy].

11:11

but you don't ~like~ closed problems, or rather, you deem the putative existence of such a thing as closed problems as such a threat to your misconception of identity, it's almost like it's the koschei stealing the above-linked "cultural aspects" of young female chest away from you.

11:12

nevertheless, all solved problems begin their life as solved problems through first being closed ; a refusal to close problem and a tendency to "keep problems open" is in the end specifically what neoteny even is.

11:14

in short, we might be one or two "cultural aspects" away from anything like a useful or usable version of common lisp. now go fuck some teenie boppers on cam ; and when you're done have them eat your ass. ON CAM. and then maybe we lisp together, later.

11:14

Logged on 2019-12-23 02:15:42 mp_en_viaje: wut is this java bullshit, "oh, i've been fucking three women". mocky.org/three-nude-sluts when!

11:16

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-29#1956259 << verily.

11:16

Logged on 2019-12-29 18:20:02 trinque: which is not just a bunch of bawww. it's worthwhile to question wtf we use to value things within which *whole lifetimes* can be lost, wasted.

11:16

it is, in fact, the foremost worth.

11:28

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-29#1956260 << it seems indeed well borne by experience that the only thing "uses lisp" codes for nowadays is mental derangement.

11:28

Logged on 2019-12-29 18:21:12 trinque: whaack: starting at beliefs is going to be a shaky foundation, but fwiw I "believe" most folks writing lisp today are compulsive masturbators like gabriel_laddel

~ 1 hours 38 minutes ~

13:07

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-30#1956339 - it is, yes.

13:07

Logged on 2019-12-30 07:02:12 mircea_popescu: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-29#1956250 << i honestly think it's the right approach. "identify an useful iota of acceptable internal structure and measure everything in that". next step self-obviously being, "once pretty much everything's within the first sigma, take another look at what you mean by acceptable internal structure".

~ 34 minutes ~

13:41

diana_coman, in other keks, https://docs.libretro.com/development/shader/xml-shaders/

13:42

56 stars ans 86 forks, if this ain't the mark of the times i can't imagine what'd be

13:44

oh; I was blissfully unaware of the extent of xml-shading, lolz.

13:49

myeah. anyway, been working on a comment for you.

13:50

done soon

~ 22 minutes ~

14:12

reading now

14:22

mircea_popescu: answered.

14:28

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-29#1956198 << i thought i got rid of the need for imagemagick with gimp's built-in scheme thing: http://thewhet.net/2019/11/a-little-bit-of-tinyscheme-a-lot-of-cozonac/?b=It%20turns%20out%20the%20box&e=thereby#select

14:28

Logged on 2019-12-29 09:56:30 mircea_popescu: neways, as to the burning "OTOH, I wonder if things like Apache or imagemagick get installed, how will the package management system work out, and how comprehensible will system stay?" question -- i see the merit of using the clean spot as a fixed point to attempt expanding cleanliness. so, it would work by apache becoming tmserv or w/e, and not sucking anymore.

~ 1 hours 7 minutes ~

15:36

hanbot, a, that's actually a good point -- we might want to look into how gimp uses scheme for scripting

15:37

pretty much the only lisp i use how shall we put this, on a day to day basis as opposed to some kinda ceremonial function

15:38

diana_coman, motherfucker, they force-inherited us with their idiotic everything-depends-on-everything-else model, did they!

15:38

Mocky

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-28#1956120 << yes I'm going to catch up. I have a lot of catching up to do

15:38

Logged on 2019-12-28 02:22:16 mircea_popescu: so listen... while you were away there's been a lot of progress ongoing in the republic, these guys now have blogs and stick to publishing planning schedules and such wunderbar alien techs. you gonna catch up with the group ?

15:39

cool.

15:39

diana_coman, let's restate this, so currently work on nailing down the comms protocol is stalled on a definitive universal data model, which is stalled on graphical use in the client, that about it ?

15:40

mircea_popescu: yes.

15:41

were there more chunks you could be working on ?

15:44

mircea_popescu: hm, thinking now about it, I think there might be, namely the more directly game-relevant parts that are also not yet fully spec (eg character, structure/item etc); I need to go over it in this light, put the graphics to the side for now and see from there.

15:44

there's two portions to the problem.

15:45

one is that a coupla years of diligent work have gotten eulora to this position where it actually outgrew the intellectual basis of the community such as it is in pretty much every respect. many things nominally upstream would be inputs for this decision spot but are sadly absent, from "well... what about scheme then ?" coincidentally brought up avbove to the self-obvious "how did the western world produce 0 graphic art

15:45

ists worth the mention" discussed in the article and so on.

15:46

so i don't even know on what basis i'm supposed to decide what, here.

15:47

the other part is that, well... why exactly is a texture / skin / shader / model / anything else in compgfx even valuable in the first place ?

15:47

explain this to me, can you ? why are these valuable ?

15:48

oh boy, I'm possibly the last person to ask for an argument pro "valuable" on those.

15:48

perhaps it's why you're asked then.

15:55

hm; I keep thinking that "perhaps I don't know enough about them to find the value" ; as I see them now, they are more accumulations of trial and error/overfitting/tinkering though so they seem of very little - or indeed negative - value tbh.

15:55

the sort of accumulating accidental complexity, to link it in with trinque's thread re OS.

15:56

bear with me here, because this is going to be lengthy.

15:58

so, the sukhoi 34 is a pretty cool plane ; in any case the basis of the russian defeat in the field of usg's pretense to air participation. now suppose for the sake of argument someone comes offering to sell one ; and suppose further that you're to advise on the purchase by providing a single scalar value : what the item is worth iyo.

15:58

what value do you spit out ?

15:59

ugh, this seems out of my advising capabilities really.

16:00

why ?

16:01

because "what this item is worth" depends on more than just the item in itself and I have no idea even on the item really, let alone the context.

16:02

well, there's one overarching bit of context here : the offer is to sell ~ONE~

16:02

if you are asking "what is this item worth to *you*", well, not much; the fuck do I do with this sukhoi.

16:03

i suspect the item as discussed is actually worth 0, yes, making complete idiots of the management of all the us' "allies".

16:03

but let's continue :

16:03

oh huh, only one? dunno, perhaps the idea is to reverse engineer, that might be about the only possible value I can see but it's dubious for all sorts of reasons.

16:06

"artificial intelligence", like "flight" or whatever else, is as such and in the abstract a long cherished dream of humanity.

16:06

artificial intelligence as actually extant today is, leaving aside all sorta obscure lulz alf used to like referencing about expert systems and nato wargames, and the assorted lulzpile of neural networks and etc from the very dead 70s, and also leaving aside the whole life OF MINSKY, and then sussma

16:06

n, and such others as lost themselves in that whale,

16:07

myeah; I fell in love with it at 17 (when read the promise) and then promptly barfed by 19 (when encountered the full extent of the "practice")

16:07

a very simple thing : systems of really really many linear equations with really really numerous variables hidden behind very small parameters.

16:08

now, suppose we change out the sukhoi, and chande in instead "an artificial intelligence", specifically, a few TB of w/e worth of mostly 0s, binary values.

16:08

if run through the proprietary bundle, it beats any human at go.

16:08

otherwise, it... i dunno, it makes a skymap if you print the 1's as stars i guess.

16:08

lolz; and pretty light patterns possibly.

16:08

now, what's your scalar in this new context ?

16:10

what, for buying an AI system that is "very powerful" when ran through the proprietary bundle & otherwise unclear what it does?

16:10

rather: unclear what *useful* thing it does

16:11

as above, it's negative value, below that "not much" for the sukhoi.

16:11

do you see the argument that "an sukhoi" is worth exactly the same as "an ai", in the sense that they're the ash of a cigar someone else smoked, the marblecake of an anal cavity someone else fucked, and, to quote the quite prophetic mr mel again, what's the point of a program that can't rewrite its own code ?

16:12

that yes, I do; though I am partial to an sukhoi more than to an AI because at least it's a concrete beast I guess.

16:13

alright

16:13

now let's see here : leaving aside for the sake of discoursive coherence the correct vectorial representation, and making do with a purely catesian approach (aka bitmaps) for the time being, on the expectation that while this rather than that allows much easier quantification, that rather than this doesn't magically pack much more complexity, greeks be damned :

16:15

a cube a thousand pixels wide will take, to be naively described point by point, about 3*256 Gb. this means there's about a trillion such cubes. yes ?

16:18

ah, I see; yes.

16:19

alright. out of this space of 3bn units, once applying the rule of "looks like a game character" (or "mob" or whatever forumation of "is useful for eulora") there's going to be a few equivalency classes (most visible on say nintendo, bcause most annoying on nintendo, really, the wolf+1 gets blond hair ?)

16:19

but mostly, there's going to be empty space. or rather : "crap" is the largest equivalency class.

16:19

ahaha, sure.

16:19

now the proposition here is, as i understand it, the following :

16:21

so hard and difficult and unapproachable and scary and etcetera is this question of splittign the space, that it is worthwhile to go to all the trouble of farming a bunch of morons, because their crap/noncrap decision is tantamount to fucking holy, and no deployment of anything but honest to god THE dude from big lebowsky can possibly cut it.

16:21

so it's worth making a thing like blender, and then making a thing like the inexistent exporter, and then making a thing like cs, and all the xml wrapping and etcetera,

16:21

just so these idiots can alter a pixel here or there.

16:22

*

diana_coman saw this coming

16:22

except, of course, they don't. and when hanbot TRIED to do it, she died in a flaming mess of deeply inadequate tools. she almost made a slime. ALMOST.

16:22

hey hanbot how did that go ?

16:24

i had a lot of fun modeling a slime guy in blender, then discovered getting it to a usable form via "baking textures" etc 5 or so layers deep was ... i guess i'd call it beyond my attention span.

16:24

so you're saying the unusable tools part was not the making but the exporting, as it were ?

16:24

yep

16:24

where was the article btw, got a link ?

16:25

nah, i committed a major sin there, possibly i'll have to pay by starting over and properly documenting.

16:25

diana_coman, the problem with the foregoing is that i can kinda ballpark the COST of maintaining all the infrastructure for monkeys to typewrite at their leisure. so can you, i expect.

16:25

is it fucking worth it ?

16:25

hanbot, why the fuck didn't you write it out ? i remember reading SOMETHING.

16:27

mircea_popescu: I had the article on the toolchain to help her as I knew she was having a go at it based on some discussion in #eulora I think; maybe that?

16:27

i recal lpictures of the slime guy in it!

16:29

re maintaining the infrastructure, I don't see how it can be really justified as such anyway given that uhm, those doing something with it are anyway essentially non-existent currently so can't maintain so they "do" anything; and if it is to *also* build them up, then well, they'll fit whatever infrastructure is provided, not the other way around.

16:29

and no, I wouldn't start making another blender, ugh.

16:30

yeah there's some #eulora refs like http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/eulora/2017-02-05#940257, i sincerely dun recall properly documenting tho', probably part and parcel of the overwhelmed at step 10 of 10 thing. mea culpa, i oughta know better.

16:30

(eulora) 2017-02-05 hanbot: fwiw diana_coman i have a blender-made animated character guy finished and am gonna try out the crystal space exporter thingy as per http://www.crystalspace3d.org/docs/online/manual/Blender.html , prolly tomorrow. if you have any tips/pointers/etc in the meantime pls to schpiel at me

16:30

hanbot, yeah, don't do that again.

16:31

diana_coman, the way this coming to a head is working out in my head is as follows : you have practically speaking the option to either a) go trawl the entire internet, drag out ~everything~ that's conceivably useful (submit expenses report for stuff that's behind reasonable paywalls i guess) and then we systematize the pile ; or else write a possible-lifeform-generation machine and see what you want it to save.

16:32

or whatever, how the data should be kept.

16:33

we actually did something somewhat like a test run for a if memory serves, hence http://trilema.com/2016/eulora-012/ trials yes

16:35

if you mean "art products" by that everything that's conceivably useful then yes, indeed, I was thinking precisely of that rather sad attempt, hm; the idea -naive!- behind that to my mind was more to find perhaps as a result *people* doing something useful in that direction, hm.

16:35

neither of these is shaders specifically, because obviously neither can be shaders specifically, because how

16:36

the thing with the AI/automated generation was initially that "can't beat human at this sort of task" iirc.

16:36

diana_coman, sadly i do not currently believe anyone whose name is going to be worth knowing in ten years is older than about fifteen today. with maybe a dozen exceptions.

16:37

you meet more 30yos, you'll meet more alfs in the best case. i am so fucking uncurious to be meeting anymore alfs...

16:38

myeah; that basically says "you'll have to build up the people too so..."

16:38

it does. if there's a meteor land tomorrow wipe out "humanity" there'll be exactly nothing lost. except for the stench it wouldn't even be noticeable anything occured.

16:42

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-30#1956451 - pretty much b then, for so much "choice" , huh.

16:42

Logged on 2019-12-30 12:41:13 mircea_popescu: diana_coman, the way this coming to a head is working out in my head is as follows : you have practically speaking the option to either a) go trawl the entire internet, drag out ~everything~ that's conceivably useful (submit expenses report for stuff that's behind reasonable paywalls i guess) and then we systematize the pile ; or else write a possible-lifeform-generation machine and see what you want it to save

16:46

but this aside : our position is remarkably vulnerable, because of the countless ways in which people are morons, from the pure bobeckistan of blender (and let's not forget how python got indexed in the first place) to a very thick stripperweb-style tarabostes idi

16:46

ocy.

16:46

do you even recall how many "artists" i commissioned to date whose idea of "commission" and "artist" was... take some money and RUN!!!!!

16:46

gotta be at least a dozen, including both the expert who made one splash screen and the contest winning kid on tardstalk who made the other.

16:47

I didn't keep track but I do recall at least a few off the top of my head, yes.

16:48

anyway, i'm not about to go paying idiots a whole lotta money so they're a little bit less idiotic, what the fuck.

16:48

now, the risk with choosing b is that it can readily turn into the grave ; in the hands of any being an engineer that'd be exactly the necessary outcome. it can take forever, yes ?

16:49

usure you wouldn't rather choose a ?

16:49

certainly; and part of why I'm not all-that-enthusiastic about it; otoh my current experience with ~equivalent of a make me also-not-that-enthusiastic; so I'm looking at "choice".

16:49

certainly I meant for "it can take forever"

16:50

the advantage of a truly republican new year's celebration

16:50

you get to sit with your drink and mull the depths.

16:50

anwyay -- i kinda do want a done anyway, so if any of the unemployed in the audience wants to hop to, do talk to me about it.

16:51

mircea_popescu: what about cs/ps anyway? ie graphics as "how & what to store" is one thing; there is still at all times some sort of "how to get from data to pretty pics/animations/etc"

16:51

what are you asking specifically ?

16:52

what are the steps going to be re "graphics on client side"?

16:52

both a and b above produce a pile ; it's piped into extant eulora client ; done.

16:54

(watch that at some later point, all the assholes who were "too busy" to help out when it mattered will whine about why bitcoin is so expensive now, and their work not worth jack once we didn't need it anymore so they finally deigned to doing some)

16:55

ok; worth noting that the "piped into" part might itself be quite involved / will depend on what's exactly in that pile from a/b.

16:56

but that's the idea : what i mean by " we systematize the pile" is that first we make a large pile, then we select from it to make a smaller but correctly structured pile, and then we use the pile to fix cs where needed (and also we convert some portion of the larger pile left out, that's worth doing)

16:56

at any rate, I'll take some days to (mull & read)*

16:57

(mull & read)* tingles my malloc sense. is that a dangling dereference ?

16:57

ahaha, no, it's just several passes.

16:57

anyway. you happy ?

16:58

happiness is such a relative thing, lol.

16:58

lol. i mean it as the term of art, seen in "vincent ? are we happy ?"

16:59

lolz; I was about to say that compared to further trying to get sense out of cs entrails, just about ~anything else qualifies for happy.

17:00

well good for you then ; ima go back to trying to dig myself out from under all the publishings omfg.

17:00

this, for the record, is the first time in my life i've actually had this problem. i been preparing for it all my life, it's true, but i never actually had it before.

17:00

mircea_popescu's first time.

~ 41 minutes ~

17:42

heh

~ 1 hours 41 minutes ~

19:24

trinque: why does your blog send me to an empty page after I give it a comment? It's quite confusing/initially I thought it failed to eat it and I was just about to try again.

19:25

also, mind adding those very useful widgets for last articles and last comments? please?

19:25

trinque, can i get you to use sane referencing for quotes ? your http://trilema.com/2015/the-anal-child/#selection-43.31-47.27 selects http://trilema.com/2015/the-anal-child/?b=s%20no%20point&e=he%20kno#select , is that what you meant ?

19:26

and yes what she said, i'm stuck fishing through http://trinque.org/rss.php over here, which guess what.

19:26

http://trinque.org/feed/ works as intended

~ 44 minutes ~

20:11