#trilema | 2019-12-29

http://trinque.org/2019/12/28/a-republican-os-part-1/ << trinque -- A Republican OS - Part 1

02:47

and jfw, dorion_road, if you don't see the word "Gales" in there, it's because I'm trying to disabuse you of the notion that there's such thing as a "Gales" which you made, by way of sheer numbers.

02:47

and I'm not even halfway to a blinking cursor yet

02:55

ftr not saying anything about the value of the gales work, above. I think it's quite valuable, but we'll get there.

~ 6 hours 39 minutes ~

09:34

trinque: is the select thing not working on your blog? I'm trying to select that great "fits in hand" and I can't seem to, this doesn't do anything.

~ 47 minutes ~

10:22

in this morn's stray thoughts : if "wife" ends up spelled "waifu" in japanese, is it the case "kungfu" really should be "knife" ?

10:23

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-28#1956143 << ah gosh durnit, you're exactly right. it's my fault, i got confused by thinking of two different nicks as "me".

10:23

Logged on 2019-12-28 07:29:14 spyked: mircea_popescu: hm, from what I see it only sent the comments/new feeds since it first saw mircea_popescu offline

10:24

sorry for the constant complaints borne out of user error, plox don't take it to heart.

10:25

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-28#1956145 << i'm sure you can donate less than the cost of a cup of coffee or whatever though. remember, it's the site that doesn't advertise -- a point oft repeated via wikipedia not-advertising.

10:25

Logged on 2019-12-28 09:08:25 hanbot: in other unexpected wins, wikipedia started redirecting my browser to "mandatory upgrade" sometime last week. of all the deprecations i've steadfastly watched pass by in my box's moat as it were, this one is by far the most satisfying.

10:26

in keeping with the theme, "pedoworld reality distortion field" ends up spelled "wiki" in hawaii or some shit.

10:29

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-28#1956147 << this is probably the furthest afield asking in the history of askings on planet earth. but... sure, why not, if you'll happily accept ima fire up the magic box later and make the thing.

10:29

Logged on 2019-12-28 12:21:04 trinque: specifically, if you saw fit to issue a deed for #trinque , I'd happily accept

10:34

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-28#1956154 << fucking nonsense of this ilk is how we ended up in the shit in the first fucking place.

10:34

Logged on 2019-12-28 17:35:36 trinque: god damned bootloader being larger than an entire userland, holy hell.

10:43

incidentally BingoBoingo what's the snag now ? your client ran off from under you after paying ?!

10:45

!!seen shysr

10:45

deedbot

I haven't seen shysr

10:45

da fuck

10:45

!!seen shrysr

10:45

deedbot

2019/08/01 17:40:34 <shrysr> mp_en_viaje: yes selection on your pages work, and so does younghands.club, .. seen it before and just rechecked.

10:45

who the fuck even is this guy

10:47

apparently now there's [ztkfg.com/2019/12/thoughts-on-shrysr-leaving-younghands-and-asciilifeforms-excommunication/][drama] about people i don't even recall ever hearing of. i have fiddy tabs open struggling to keep up with everyone over here and barely managing... it's like an xmas miracle or something.

10:51

oh right, the introvert indian engine guy, i see.

~ 1 hours 18 minutes ~

12:09

well now that i took all the time to write it, might as well link it : http://ztkfg.com/2019/12/thoughts-on-shrysr-leaving-younghands-and-asciilifeforms-excommunication/#comment-144 (though whaack stll jas to approve it)

12:19

http://bvt-trace.net/2019/12/gales-installation-report/ << bvt's backtrace -- Gales Installation Report

~ 59 minutes ~

13:19

mircea_popescu: Waiting for deedbot to go from acceptance to deeding. I've got the MPEx statement with my involvement note attached on top submitted to deedbot. (Clearsigned statement on its own here since GPG doesn't like making nested signatures). For whatever it may be worth, I've also got my client to sign [http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/t

13:19

Logged on 2019-12-23 22:36:18 BingoBoingo: !!deed http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=x4MA

13:19

rilema/2019-12-23#1956012][instructions for me,] which I also submitted to deedbot.

13:21

The logling where I deed the client's signed instructions again, this time under cutting length: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-23#1956012

13:21

Logged on 2019-12-23 22:13:47 BingoBoingo: !!deed http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=KcLJ

13:22

mircea_popescu: approved ^

13:35

BingoBoingo, aite, i might be out for a few days seeing how it's new year but we shall resume in 2020

13:36

whaack, why ty

13:37

mircea_popescu: Thank you.

13:38

bvt, /fox/for/ /it's/its/

13:43

"A feature that I liked a lot is that shell is the only scripting language in the default install of the distribution. Typically perl and python get pulled in unconditionally as a build dependency of a runtime dependency of some rarely-used default-installed utility, or are directly used to implement package manager, etc. With Gales, a decision about what scripting language to use can be made without constraints created

13:43

by ready availability of python or others." << indeed this is mindblowingly beautiful, and as far as i current;y know the foremost fearher in jfw 's cap.

13:43

feather*

13:47

neways, as to the burning "OTOH, I wonder if things like Apache or imagemagick get installed, how will the package management system work out, and how comprehensible will system stay?" question -- i see the merit of using the clean spot as a fixed point to attempt expanding cleanliness. so, it would work by apache becoming tmserv or w/e, and not sucking anymore.

13:47

at least, ideally.

13:48

or to put it another way, i do not believe it is either intelligent or even tolerable to try and carry forward the "install" paradigm from derpworld. something much more akin to diana_coman 's work on eulora is what "get installed" will have to mean.

~ 2 hours 46 minutes ~

16:35

http://ossasepia.com/2019/12/29/the-shady-business-with-shaders-in-cs-notes-on-graphics-in-eulora-ix/ << Ossa Sepia -- The Shady Business with Shaders in CS (Notes on Graphics in Eulora, IX)

~ 1 hours 4 minutes ~

17:39

mircea_popescu: does this mean "everything is always built and installed" ?

17:40

mircea_popescu: ty; fixed.

17:41

I don't for example need anything GUI-related in an embedded linux device

17:42

I agree that there should be single, correct answers when choosing components (as I'm trying to lay out the options for such selection in my series), but not that each component is always present in any system.

17:42

they are however all to be in the source v-tree, of course.

17:42

mircea_popescu: re second q, imho cleaning up the components will be driven by how the OS gets [re]structured around V, too early to say right now

17:43

bvt: not trying to be a pedantic dick over here, but it's v that's the boundary around the other stuff, not the other stuff around v

17:45

at the individual v-trees sure, but on the yddragsil level?

17:45

no, there's only one v tree

17:45

we've just only ever composed fragments of it yet.

17:48

in this case, i can restate it as 'depends on how current fragments will get composed into one tree'

~ 2 hours 57 minutes ~

20:46

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-29#1956162 << this should now work.

20:46

Logged on 2019-12-29 05:44:04 diana_coman: trinque: is the select thing not working on your blog? I'm trying to select that great "fits in hand" and I can't seem to, this doesn't do anything.

20:50

http://qntra.net/2019/12/iran-conducts-joint-naval-drills-with-china-and-russia-in-gulf-of-oman/ << Qntra -- Iran Conducts Joint Naval Drills With China and Russia In Gulf Of Oman

~ 36 minutes ~

21:26

trinque: I had a look at your published paster lisp code; my current understanding is that it's only a part of what's required to stand up a backup paste service though, isn't it? mind pointing me to the rest of the bits/a recipe to put it all together? I had this idea that it's saner to replicate at the very least the paste service and a mirrored wot website. My current understanding of that paster ...

21:26

... lisp code is that it pulls in the drakma http client that pulls in as far as I can see another 18 deps (and moreover so far one of them fails anyway on my current setup aka centos 6 with sbcl 1.0.39, asdf 2.26; but I see that whaack reports sbcl 1.4.14 working for the logbot so I'll try it next with that and see.)

21:29

yeah, that thing's just a lib around doing http posts to what's a very simple wad of php

21:29

whaack: what version of asdf did you get to work with all the rest anyway?

21:29

diana_coman: From my experience, for most packages from quicklisp you're going to have problems if you don't have asdf 3+, which comes with sbcl 1.4.14 (not sure what the first version of sbcl with asdf 3+ was)

21:29

I can genesize the phpwad as well.

21:29

trinque: please do, thank you.

21:31

diana_coman: i'm using asdf 3.3.1

21:32

noted, thanks; basically so far it's have fun with python versions or fun with asdf version, lolz.

21:32

*

diana_coman will bbl

21:33

diana_coman: I tried and failed to upgrade to asdf 3+ while keeping my sbcl 1.something . That is one reason why I switched my sbcl to 1.4.14

21:33

1.0.something*

21:34

whaack: what's the principle upon which you choose versions of these?

21:35

trinque: I can't say I am principled in the manner. in general, i use the lowest version that works

21:43

I think this is a bad heuristic.

21:44

version is serving here as a proxy for complexity

21:44

trinque: i am more than open to hear yours

21:44

there's also this hard-to-define cultural decay element

21:45

whaack: in this case, between sbcl-1.0.50 and the latest, the C kernel of the thing actually got smaller by roughly a third, while the lisp part expanded by about 100k lines

21:46

so it's not so clear that it got harder to maintain as time went on, depending a whole bunch on where that extra lisp ended up

21:46

lines are another bad proxy for complexity, but they're a better measure than the version triple

21:49

trinque: what were the sizes of the C kernel and lisp part to begin with?

21:51

trinque: And what version of sbcl + asdf do you use yourself?

21:51

I try not to use asdf at all, anymore.

21:51

but I've had a pretty violently negative reaction to the whole pile.

21:52

I'd be willing to abandon lisp for now, seeing as how the usable components incur at least another 400k lines of bloat, and for that you gain yet another javascript ecosystem.

21:53

if we were to retain lisp, I'd say pick one, don't have a python alongside it, and don't expect to use much "open source" to help you.

21:54

clozurecl ftr is just about as fat as sbcl these days.

21:58

and both of these are larger, again, than ALL OF BUSYBOX

21:58

which includes a shell

21:58

and that's the latest, fattest busybox yet.

21:58

anyhow, gonna stop skipping ahead and get to writing

21:59

trinque: well fwiw I sincerely hope tmsr-os comes with a lisp over a python

22:00

not saying it shouldn't, but why do you hope that?

22:02

ahaha, by now I see that trinque will measure everything in multiples of busybox.

22:03

trinque: First, I find it more pleasant writing in lisp. Second, I like the cultural aspect of a (present day) more niche language. Then for problems with python: i find the single line lambdas a strange requirement, and not having tail call optimization is lame (although i admit i can't think of many/any cases where that's been a problem)

22:03

re paster though tbh this attempt (coming as it does on top of the previous mess with python and its flask) left me looking again for not using either.

22:06

trinque: pasting chunks of python code is also a pain given the blocks-created-by-tabs design

22:06

diana_coman: http://trinque.org/2019/12/28/a-republican-os-part-1/comment-page-1/#comment-133

22:07

whaack: wtf's "the cultural aspect of a (present day) more niche language" ?

22:09

nobody's defending python; I'm questioning the superiority of lisp for anything you might actually be doing on a regular basis.

22:09

all my tmsr work to date could've been php or pyshits for all the difference it would've made.

22:10

diana_coman: if i search for a piece of lisp code to do something, I have a (perhaps naive) belief that I am more likely to find something well written, since there are fewer people using the language

22:10

which is not just a bunch of bawww. it's worthwhile to question wtf we use to value things within which *whole lifetimes* can be lost, wasted.

22:11

whaack: starting at beliefs is going to be a shaky foundation, but fwiw I "believe" most folks writing lisp today are compulsive masturbators like gabriel_laddel

22:13

whaack: that's naive at best, indeed.

22:14

trinque: I'll take some more time to digest both the article and the comment.

22:15

*

trinque tips hat

~ 1 hours 12 minutes ~

23:27

dorion_road

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-28#1956159 << thanks. my position is gales, like cuntoo, is a stepping stone to tmsr os so looks like we're onthe same page there.

23:27