#trilema | 2019-11-30

05:14

http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/trilema/2019-11-29#1953847 << gotcha. So perhaps I can get an initial dump to you for trilema.com (with > march 2016 archives imported), then you can give the final dump to me for trilema.org?

05:14

ericbot

Logged on 2019-11-29 15:20:21 mircea_popescu: lobbes, except if you do that, i'd rather do it on trilema.com first

05:14

lobbes

in other news bracket linking now functional in mpwp logger. Tip of the hat again to asciilifeform, as I ended up lifting his bracket linking code verbatim from the reader.py

05:15

*

lobbes continues first thing tomorrow, but for now sleeps

~ 8 hours 44 minutes ~

13:59

05:14	lobbes	http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/trilema/2019-11-29#1953847 << gotcha. So perhaps I can get an initial dump to you for trilema.com (with > march 2016 archives imported), then you can give the final dump to me for trilema.org?
05:14	ericbot	Logged on 2019-11-29 15:20:21 mircea_popescu: lobbes, except if you do that, i'd rather do it on trilema.com first
05:14	lobbes	in other news bracket linking now functional in mpwp logger. Tip of the hat again to asciilifeform, as I ended up lifting his bracket linking code verbatim from the reader.py
05:15	*	lobbes continues first thing tomorrow, but for now sleeps
		~ 8 hours 44 minutes ~
13:59	diana_coman	http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-29#1953885 - tbh I think we do; I've been mulling this for a while ie I'm not happy with the full V setup as it is - at least as it is for me currently - but so far it never made it to the front to push for some solution.
13:59	ossabot	Logged on 2019-11-29 17:10:06 mircea_popescu: do we have a problem there, is it ?
		~ 2 hours 27 minutes ~
16:27	mircea_popescu	well, ideologically the thing stood at "let development be painful-er than entirely painless, it'll produce better code in the end".
16:27	mircea_popescu	then again, that was pushed through in a different context, maybe needs reexamination
16:27	diana_coman	mircea_popescu: trouble is that it's not development that is painful-er, not at all; it's...publishing that is painfuller and I doubt that has any merits.
16:40	diana_coman	should add that I think the problem is relatively superficial ie one of tools as they currently stand, not one of principles.
		~ 24 minutes ~
17:05	diana_coman	and then ofc something stares me in the face but I can't yet even fully scope it, gah.
17:10	mircea_popescu	well, HOW was that hour spent ?
17:11	mircea_popescu	taylorism ftw, half the time the problem's one of "you know, if you set out the tools on the bench BEFORE you got the hot piece out of the oven, rather than run around the smithy holding a chunk of red iron while looking for things..."
		↖
17:14	diana_coman	mircea_popescu: mno, it's not just a matter of "tools were not set out properly"; tools were set out and there was no time lost gathering them or whatever; yes, there is some inevitable delay when using key, for obv reason but by now that part is as streamlined as it can currently be.
17:15	diana_coman	sure, you can say "you're an idiot, set out your workbench better"; maybe it is that; I think there's more to it though but probably I'll have to find some time to scope it and write it down.
17:15	diana_coman	it can be said also that "well, 2 lines of change taking 10 minutes to do should NOT HAVE BEEN a vpatch"
17:15	diana_coman	because a vpatch comes with such a large overhead
17:16	diana_coman	maybe that is true though I think it shouldn't be.
17:18	diana_coman	not to mention that I specifically packed more than just the initial change that you were pushing, precisely because of this issue - the overhead on a vpatch means that small but useful changes will have to wait to accumulate.
17:23	diana_coman	at any rate, the hour was spent: ~10 minutes figuring out the change and making it directly on my blog so that the results were clear; ~30 minutes for full vpatch process: retrieve+press current v-tree to head; make code + manifest file changes; test press of result & check + final sign; ~20 minutes for write-up + upload + overall final check.
17:28	diana_coman	the grating thing being also that the only alternative I see would be "drop it in the logs/blog" as a clue/how-to and then keep searching for it or something.
17:42	feedbot	http://qntra.net/2019/11/man-convicted-of-terror-plot-and-released-in-december-2018-shot-while-stabbing-near-london-bridge/ << Qntra -- Man Convicted Of Terror Plot And Released In December 2018 Shot While Stabbing Near London Bridge
17:45	mircea_popescu	im not saying that lol
17:47	mircea_popescu	honestly it doesn't seem to me the breakdown you have is unreasonable. it will take some time to write things up. this time SHOULD be taken, there's no benefit from "oh, let me mention things vaguely and anti-usefully in the log", it's worse than nothing, it's a cost upon the future.
17:48	mircea_popescu	now, that time shouldn't be excessive ; but 20 minutes hardly strikes me as excessive, dunno, is the argument here ?
17:49	mircea_popescu	arguably a press + vdiff + test press + sign shouldn't be half an hour, but it seems to me by now we're trying to measure the measuring tool, it's not even clear the measurement tolerance is narrower than the width of that "shouldn't". by how much shouldn't it be half hour.
17:50	mircea_popescu	maybe the problem here is one of expectations management.
17:50	diana_coman	mircea_popescu: no, it's neither about the write up (after all, I did it because I considered it needed) nor about the 20 minutes on it; it's about the fact that a vpatch containing ~30 hours worth of changes would have taken ~similar in writeup and the rest.
17:50	diana_coman	hence the "will have to wait until they accumulate"
17:50	diana_coman	ugh, 30 minutes not 30 hours.
18:01	mircea_popescu	what's 30 minutes worth of changes ?
18:03	diana_coman	code changes that took 30 minutes, lol; not sure how can one define it more precisely in the general like that, it depends on a lot of things after all.
18:09	mircea_popescu	but maybe here's where it is buried.
18:09	mircea_popescu	what, should there be more lines ?
18:09	diana_coman	no, it's not about the loc and I specifically did not mention loc.
18:09	mircea_popescu	i guarantee you it'd have taken anyone else > 30 minutes to figure the shit out. just because you have the massiva advantage of perfect familiarity doesn't mean so much,