Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2019-09-24 | 2019-09-26 → ↓
00:09 billymg mircea_popescu: i could be completely missing the point though, i'm still not very familiar with pingbacks outside of the small bit i've read since you mentioned it
~ 4 hours 59 minutes ~
05:08 mircea_popescu billymg, did you ever find the trilema article re how to re-do your missed pingbacks ?
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~ 1 hours 18 minutes ~
06:27 mircea_popescu asciilifeform, yup, was the cap.
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06:28 mircea_popescu fucking chinesium, everything;s just a name now. "oh, gigabyte". really, sucker ? why not hagen daasz! ITS DANISH ICECREAM
06:28 mircea_popescu from fucking newark.
06:31 diana_coman it's gigglybit!
06:31 mircea_popescu it's a sadness.
06:32 mircea_popescu anyways. i will now review my wot in preparation for deedbot updates!
06:32 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-22 05:14:26 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-21#1937508 << no, rating of 9 specifically, able to self-voice.
06:33 mircea_popescu !!rate asciilifeform 9 his lordship the lord admiral
06:33 deedbot Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=NhNj
06:33 mircea_popescu !!rate diana_coman 9 her ladyship the marquess eulora.
06:33 deedbot Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=QbmJ
06:33 mircea_popescu !!rate hanbot 9 her ladyship the lady falconeer.
06:33 deedbot Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=D__w
06:33 mircea_popescu hey, who knew, my little gimmick with the titles years ago makes this way the fuck easier now. win.
06:34 mircea_popescu !!rate mod6 9 his lordship the lord high steward.
06:34 deedbot Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=7lun
06:34 mircea_popescu !!rate BingoBoingo 9 his lordship the lord goebbels.
06:34 deedbot Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=TWsB
06:35 mircea_popescu !!rate Mocky 9 ἀποκρισιάριος دولة قطر‎
06:35 deedbot Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=0n8a
06:39 mircea_popescu !!rate ben_vulpes 1 used to be the Lord of the Well, but meanwhile http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-06#1934268
06:39 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-06 21:37:26 trinque: bv wishes not to be raised, and I shan't press the issue further.
06:39 deedbot Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=uLQs
06:40 mircea_popescu i suppose another side effect of all this is that it turns 1 ratings into a sorta morgue.
06:40 mircea_popescu "mp, you can't negrate him, we can't sell to him if you do" "fuck. i don't wanna 0 it either, it'll disappear from the lists" "well..." "fuuuuck"
06:41 mircea_popescu what can you do.
06:41 diana_coman hm; why does 0 disappear from the lists though?
06:41 diana_coman isn't that the natural morgue?
06:42 diana_coman 0 is not "no rating"
06:42 mircea_popescu !!rate phf 1 http://trilema.com/2019/trilema-goes-dark/#comment-130823
06:42 deedbot Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=IqaX
06:42 mircea_popescu diana_coman, traditionally setting it to 0 is how you unset it.
06:43 mircea_popescu i suppose, retrospectively, this is implementation of folly, there's no possible usecase for ACTUALLY ever unsetting a rating.
06:43 diana_coman mircea_popescu: yes, but not sure I see the point of "unset"; it's 0
06:43 diana_coman exactly.
06:43 diana_coman tbh it sounds a bit like discovering that 0 "exists", lol.
06:43 mircea_popescu this is so ; but for the sake of sanity im not gonna spec significant changes in the middle of implementing a differen tspec.
06:44 mircea_popescu it does at that.
06:44 diana_coman aite.
06:44 mircea_popescu we'll get to this later, i say.
06:45 mircea_popescu it's philosophically fraught, because as per the spec a rating of 0 should convey that the rater deems he can answer NO questions about the ratee. in which case... why is it a rating.
06:46 mircea_popescu of course, this could readily also bear the alternative interepretation of "there is nothing the rater WISHES TO SAY".
06:46 mircea_popescu we can mull it over till april.
06:46 mircea_popescu !!rate trinque 9 his lordship the master of the rolls.
06:47 deedbot Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=XXR3
06:47 mircea_popescu !!rate ave1 9 his lordship the lord logiciel
06:47 deedbot Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=2TJi
06:47 mircea_popescu !!rate lobbes 9 his lordship the lord of the auction house
06:47 deedbot Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=ECNn
06:48 mircea_popescu there lolz, now you don't have to regret etcetera keks
06:49 mircea_popescu it'll benefit the nooblets immensely if they seriously spend some time groking the "turn" thing. there's a time for everything ; and for most things that time isn't NOW.
06:50 mircea_popescu !!rate spyked 9 his lordship the lord crypto-alchemist
06:50 deedbot Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=Oz06
06:50 mircea_popescu !!rate billymg 2 promising noob
06:50 deedbot Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=14t_
06:51 mircea_popescu !!rate mp_en_viaje 9 my travel key.
06:51 deedbot Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=mtpi
06:51 mircea_popescu !!rate nicoleci 2 slavegirl
06:52 deedbot Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=3obS
06:53 mircea_popescu ah, that wasn't even all that painful in the end.
06:58 diana_coman mircea_popescu: is there some eta/requirement on/for the castle-licensing thing? on my part I'm fine with it as stated.
06:59 mircea_popescu nah was gonna do them next.
07:13 diana_coman http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937779 - I think this is quite exactly what 0 rating means, yes.
07:13 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-25 07:01:56 mircea_popescu: of course, this could readily also bear the alternative interepretation of "there is nothing the rater WISHES TO SAY".
07:13 mircea_popescu the problem with this is that people wish to say different things in different contexts.
07:14 mircea_popescu the converse is folly, "oh, girl doesn't show her cunt". of course she does. just, maybe not to you.
07:17 diana_coman hm; rather: 0 = there is history of interaction but there is nothing to say of the person currently (dead @ the morgue, precisely); onth no rating means no history whatsoever.
07:18 diana_coman so yes, nothing the rater can/wishes to say of the current "person"; still, they can/wish to say something of the past-identity if one asks
07:19 mircea_popescu incidentally asciilifeform scores on his choice of epithet. amir-al-bahr used to be "commander of the fleet", but the dwellers in the lower part of the kingdom of two sicilies (a byzantine remnant) thought it's rather something else.
07:29 mircea_popescu !!deed http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=7IqJ
07:29 deedbot accepted: 1
07:29 mircea_popescu !!deed http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=cuVS
07:29 deedbot accepted: 1
07:30 mircea_popescu !!deed http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=YaNz
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07:30 deedbot accepted: 1
07:32 mircea_popescu meanwhile in other luzl, check out diana_coman being a prophet in her own country
07:32 diana_coman heh, /me likes asciilifeform's dominus admirabilis
07:34 diana_coman lol! that is probably among the easiest thing to prophesize, esp in land of shepherds
07:35 mircea_popescu ikr,
07:36 mircea_popescu well... considering that i've been doing nothing all morning but fuck qwith cryptosystems, perhaps it could be said i've earned a breakfast.
07:36 mircea_popescu bbs!
07:36 diana_coman enjoy!
~ 24 minutes ~
08:00 deedbot http://deedbot.org/bundle-596500.txt
08:08 bvt mircea_popescu: i.e., in this context my rating remains +2, hence no self-voice in #trilema?
08:17 mircea_popescu this is a problem innit.
08:20 mircea_popescu not even just for bvt, also say nicoleci
08:22 mircea_popescu i suppose the only workable solution here is indeed to admit http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-22#1937525 was actually ill-considered. yes 9 specifically might mean lordship, but that's not === selfvoice.
08:22 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-22 05:14:26 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-21#1937508 << no, rating of 9 specifically, able to self-voice.
08:23 mircea_popescu so check this out trinque i changed my mind! http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-21#1937508 << rating < 1, actually.
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08:23 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-21 23:53:50 trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-20#1937433 << should be very easy, i.e. wrapped this weekend or next. to confirm, same rules as deedbot : nonzero rating -> able to self-voice?
08:23 mircea_popescu damn, rating > 1. so 2 trhough 10 inclusive.
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08:24 diana_coman mircea_popescu: isn't bvt lord verschlimmbessert?
08:26 mircea_popescu wtf happened here
08:28 diana_coman mircea_popescu: I think this issue with self-voice vs lordship comes from #trilema being both republican halls (ie lords discussion) and your own training halls (hence nicoleci's problem to self-voice if only-9 can do it);
08:28 mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/2019/antiqua-sanctorum-patrum-or-the-lordship-list-sixth-year/ << he certainly is. nfi, what happened was i went by my ratings ; but his wasn't updated since february.
08:29 mircea_popescu i suspect the issue was, didn't update his rating then because traveling or w/e, and look the havok it wrought downstream.
08:29 mircea_popescu srory bvt , clerical error.
08:29 mircea_popescu !!rate bvt 9 his lordship the lord verschlimmbessert
08:29 deedbot Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=AoSf
08:30 mircea_popescu !!rate nicoleci 2 i own her
08:30 deedbot Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=sHqU
08:30 mircea_popescu that'll be a doozy to translate to latin when he asks for his castle deed huh!
08:30 bvt yes, this is what i was talking about, ty.
08:30 mircea_popescu okies, did i fuck anything up ? since i'm right here at the instruments and can readily fix it.
08:31 diana_coman I was just going/checking through the list and it seems everyone on the list got their 9 rating
08:31 mircea_popescu diana_coman, that's it exactly, im also running a slutteria here among other things
08:34 diana_coman for that matter, travel keys won't be able to self-voice but I don't see a real problem with that.
08:35 mircea_popescu mine is lol
08:35 diana_coman mircea_popescu: doh; lol.
08:35 mircea_popescu though i see a problem now : i rated it 9.
08:35 diana_coman but no, I wouldn't ask to have my travel key 9-rated.
08:35 mircea_popescu !!rate mp_en_viaje 2 my travel key.
08:35 deedbot Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=od2c
08:36 mircea_popescu who else wants travel keys tehn ?
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08:36 diana_coman mircea_popescu: mine is diana_alt
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08:36 diana_coman !!key diana_alt
08:36 deedbot http://wot.deedbot.org/40AA4323AC0CC4F1888C529D37F970EA7BE9160A.asc
08:36 mircea_popescu !!rate diana_alt 2 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937852
08:36 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 08:36:17 diana_coman: mircea_popescu: mine is diana_alt
08:36 deedbot Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=jtcj
08:37 hanbot !!key hanbot_abroad
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08:37 deedbot http://wot.deedbot.org/21407B3B5FB85C255DBFE463615BE7B45FE6A04F.asc
08:37 hanbot ^mircea_popescu
08:37 mircea_popescu !!rate hanbot_abroad 2 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937858
08:37 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 08:37:00 hanbot: !!key hanbot_abroad
08:37 deedbot Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=ORFQ
08:40 mircea_popescu aaalrighty, that's done.
08:43 hanbot tyvm
~ 1 hours 48 minutes ~
10:31 mircea_popescu meanwhile in wikilulz, "She had permanently got actively involved in the society through institutional, civic and mediatic journals regarding philosophy, political science and the process of democratization in Romania."
10:44 mircea_popescu anyway, vaguely interesting orc couple. he (adrian), minor philosophist wanna-be, writing twice a decade minuscule nothings ("what is not existence", 1994). she, mirela, doing ~exactly~ nothing. both born in the periphery, mid 50s, exactly another inginer-profesoara couple like so very many at the time.
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10:44 mircea_popescu except, of course, he's briefly director of the us influence publishing house, in 1990. then he disappears, with the purging of usgistanis in 1991.
10:44 mircea_popescu then... she reappears. in 1998 he's annointed secretary of state, out of strictly nowhere ; she gets the political science deanship at the bucharest university, also out of nowhere. and from there, beautiful http://trilema.com/2017/in-case-you-were-wondering-where-all-the-worthless-nuland-drones-ended-up/ careers in the delightful wooden tongue of the new socialism : "In 2000, she instituted the first postdoctoral programm
10:44 mircea_popescu e of Political Science in Romania at Faculty of Political Science, National School of Political Studies and Public Administration, Bucharest. She added in the university curricula courses like feminist philosophy at the University of Bucharest, Faculty of Philosophy. In 2001, she had coordinated and the first collection of Gender Studies, Polirom Publishing. Moreover, her involvement developed the Political Science Curricu
10:44 mircea_popescu la in accordance to the Bologna Programme, being a member of the evaluation commission in 1997.
10:44 mircea_popescu She founded the country's first gender studies Master's program in 1998, and helped to organize one of its earliest independent women's nongovernmental organizations: AnA –The Romanian Society for Feminist Analyses. She is an expert advisor to both UNESCO and the European Union, and has won international fellowships at Cornell University, Oxford University and the Central European University in Budapest. She was also a F
10:44 mircea_popescu ulbright recipient and was resident in the Department of Political Science at Indiana University in 2003–2004. "
10:44 mircea_popescu and so ongoing -- in case you were wondering why bologna is such lulz, or why feminism is such a nothing, or so forth. all a concoction of convenience ; we enslaved all their good spies back in 1992, and well... all that's left is all that's left, a different flavour of institutionalized womanhood /
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10:45 mircea_popescu caged tit.
10:45 mircea_popescu went as far as it could, but as you might notice, dude's blog's as abandoned as this whole 2000s lulz.
~ 20 minutes ~
11:05 * asciilifeform eats log...
11:06 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937738 << i admit, not yet seen one since '90s where it wasn't the cap
11:06 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 06:27:44 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, yup, was the cap.
11:06 asciilifeform it's come to where it almost makes sense to recap'em ~straight out of crate~
11:09 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937828 << outta curiosity, why not let the +1 people speak if they wake up ? ( or is idea that returns from grave oughta go straight to castles )
11:09 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 08:23:44 mircea_popescu: damn, rating > 1. so 2 trhough 10 inclusive.
11:13 * asciilifeform bbl,teatime
~ 34 minutes ~
11:48 mircea_popescu asciilifeform, cuz im not that interested.
11:48 mircea_popescu apparently there's need for a not-negative, nonzero number. 1 has been coopted.
11:49 mircea_popescu in practical terms makes exactly 0 diff if you 1-rate or 2-rate noobs. plenty of space to 9.
~ 26 minutes ~
12:15 asciilifeform graveyard orbit eh.
12:16 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937874 << seems like the termites they sent, work approx as well as spies ever did
12:16 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 10:44:58 mircea_popescu: and so ongoing -- in case you were wondering why bologna is such lulz, or why feminism is such a nothing, or so forth. all a concoction of convenience ; we enslaved all their good spies back in 1992, and well... all that's left is all that's left, a different flavour of institutionalized womanhood /
~ 17 minutes ~
12:34 mircea_popescu how the fuck well are they gonna work. good spies believe in something.
12:35 mircea_popescu the cult of superficial convenience is incapable of producing good spies much like it's incapable of producing artistic capodopera , or industry masterpieces.
12:36 mircea_popescu what they produce is garbage -- and on a "fair terms" comparison, i truly do not believe anyone can outdo socialism's per-capita, per-unit time, per-unit consumed or per-anything else garbage production.
12:37 mircea_popescu much like matter-antimatter reaction's the most intense energy debit known to nature, "representative democracy" is the most intense garbage debit possible in society.
~ 31 minutes ~
13:08 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: these new 'spies' aint tryin to bring back seekritz, but instead simply spread rot, a sort of bipedal smallpox blanket. seems to work
13:14 diana_coman asciilifeform: that's...spores, not spies?
13:14 asciilifeform diana_coman: aha
13:15 asciilifeform aka вредители.
13:16 mircea_popescu keks. spores, aplty put.
13:17 mircea_popescu anyway, the smallpox is necessary ; the orcs left undisturbed turn into fucking scotts.
13:21 asciilifeform meanwhile, in world of chinesium : 'lichee' co. is selling a 2.5x3cm arm7 w/ 32MB on-chip an' various periphs , for 7 $ in qty .
13:23 asciilifeform with the modest ram, not a rk competitor, but potentially useful for other applications ( has 3 serial ports, so can eat FG ) ; runs 'pogo'-style linux, so can stuff even classic gpg in ; can have nic plug attached, so potentially even host small net proggies ; pulls coupla milliwatt, so could work in radio relays or similar.
13:25 asciilifeform subj photo.
13:28 asciilifeform + pinout .
~ 30 minutes ~
13:59 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937867 >> 'Director, National Socrates Agency, Romania; 1995 – 1997' << lol, yet another 'nsa' i had nfi about!111
13:59 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 10:44:39 mircea_popescu: anyway, vaguely interesting orc couple. he (adrian), minor philosophist wanna-be, writing twice a decade minuscule nothings ("what is not existence", 1994). she, mirela, doing ~exactly~ nothing. both born in the periphery, mid 50s, exactly another inginer-profesoara couple like so very many at the time.
~ 31 minutes ~
14:30 asciilifeform meanwhile, in castles, 1 of diana_coman's students has some imho some notbad pieces on his www.
14:41 asciilifeform seems to have grasped various points as he lurked.
14:42 asciilifeform and a++ z80 !
14:56 mircea_popescu could use more reading. eg : "How can, for example a compiler be in any way even remotely political?" >> http://trilema.com/2015/the-downtrodden-are-downtrodden-for-a-reason-step-on-their-faces/ specifically discusses it.
14:57 feedbot http://qntra.net/2019/09/systemds-poettering-wants-to-break-linux-user-management-to-suspend-his-laptop/ << Qntra -- SystemD's Poettering Wants To Break Linux User Management To Suspend His Laptop
14:58 mircea_popescu moreover, functional technology (as epitomized by Bitcoin) is definitionally, necessarily and unavoidably anti-socialist. so much so that reliably one can use the reverse heuristic : if something doesn't shit on the needy, doesn't it make it harder for the stupid and more expensive for the poor, that something is most likely shit, not technology
14:58 mircea_popescu , nor science, nor good law, nor anything but.
14:59 mircea_popescu so yes, there's ~IMPLICIT~ policy in [trilema.com/2017/is-it-still-rape-if-i-write-science-on-my-penis-first/][intellectual stance] : if you're smart, you're here ; if you're not here, you're ~THEREFORE~ dumb. and so following.
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15:00 mircea_popescu anyways ; the name sounds familiar
15:01 mircea_popescu http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2017-04-02#1635956 << defo
15:01 snsabot Logged on 2017-04-02 11:49:48 jhvh1: Hello thorntron. Who is your daddy and what does he do?
15:01 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: iirc he was at some pt 'tomservo'
15:01 mircea_popescu oh is it ?
15:01 mircea_popescu well anyways
15:02 asciilifeform electronics fella. meanwhile went an' learned greek.
15:02 mircea_popescu nb,
15:03 asciilifeform for the l0gz: 'Years ago, a “technical” decision was made by a core gcc developer named Drepper to break static linking. This means that no useful binaries can ever execute on Linux without dynamically linking to certain libraries making the proposition of distributing signed binaries futile, making the proposition of secure software futile, making the proposition of Bitcoin futile, making the proposition of sound money futile, m
15:03 asciilifeform aking the proposition of free trade futile. Whether or not Drepper is aware of the political implications of the of his technical decision is irrelevant to the fact of their existance. Nevertheless, there is a belief by technologists “educated” at ITT and the public equivilants that software can exist outside of politics. As a result the US has a legal system that runs on Word, a financial system that runs on Excel, and a voting
15:03 asciilifeform system that runs on Windows.'
15:03 asciilifeform imho notbad schoolb00k summary.
15:07 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937913 << btw these need the 'htt...' for the parser to fire
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15:07 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 14:59:46 mircea_popescu: so yes, there's ~IMPLICIT~ policy in [trilema.com/2017/is-it-still-rape-if-i-write-science-on-my-penis-first/][intellectual stance] : if you're smart, you're here ; if you're not here, you're ~THEREFORE~ dumb. and so following.
15:08 * asciilifeform considered how to get 'naked' links to work, but concluded that it's prolly undecidable
15:09 asciilifeform could, naturally, force ~any~ text found in the 1st clause of a [][] pair to linkify, but will give yet entirely diff flavour of brokenness in other cases
15:16 asciilifeform incidentally, if anyone can think of a cleaner way to parse the 2 types of link ( [][] and naked htt.. ) than what's given in asciilifeform's reader.py , i'd like to hear about it. ( presently there's a quite ugly 2-step transform, as apparently it is impossible to regexp-transmute a grammar w/ 2+ patterns in 1 step )
15:18 asciilifeform the current algo, for thread-completeness.
15:27 diana_coman http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937909 - that's precisely the sort of tasks he got because yes, needs to do more reading and to do *better* reading; by the looks of it the US doesn't teach people how to read, somehow, it's rather unbelievable.
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15:27 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-25 15:12:25 mircea_popescu: could use more reading. eg : "How can, for example a compiler be in any way even remotely political?" >> http://trilema.com/2015/the-downtrodden-are-downtrodden-for-a-reason-step-on-their-faces/ specifically discusses it.
~ 1 hours 28 minutes ~
16:55 asciilifeform achtung panzers! piz pipe down ?!
16:55 diana_coman seems so
16:55 asciilifeform paging BingoBoingo !
16:56 diana_coman well, apparetly he was connected from piz too, lol
16:56 diana_coman ossasepia.com (pizarro) is down too, yes
16:56 asciilifeform dulap unreachable for 1st time since year+ ago when bb elbowed the mains cord
16:57 diana_coman apparently back on
16:57 diana_coman wb BingoBoingo !
16:45 diana_coman asciilifeform: did the bot get out of sync now ?
16:45 asciilifeform snsabot re synced via diana_coman : http://logs.ossasepia.com/log-raw/trilema?istart=1937934&iend=1937941
16:45 asciilifeform let's verify:
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16:45 asciilifeform http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937944 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937944
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16:45 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 16:45:28 asciilifeform: let's verify:
16:45 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-25 17:01:14 asciilifeform: let's verify:
16:46 asciilifeform no one spoke on other chans , and i turned the crank in time. but we're gonna want to automate these.
16:46 asciilifeform pretty interesting outage, too, net pipe gone for 3min or so (boxes still up, so not mains failure)
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16:47 diana_coman asciilifeform: fwiw I was keeping a bit mum precisely to give you time to sync bot when I saw it went down first; then ofc everyone @piz went down
16:48 asciilifeform diana_coman: loox like i'ma have to resync in #o tho.
16:48 asciilifeform would be good if didn't have to be done w/ bare teeth, but i'ma do, brb
16:49 diana_coman and yes, have to automate sync
16:49 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-01 15:54:49 diana_coman: well, syncing indices is gotta be automated not manual hunting though
16:52 asciilifeform diana_coman: pretty strange, seems that they fell outta sync ~before~ this outage ?!
16:53 asciilifeform see e.g. http://logs.ossasepia.com/log-raw/ossasepia?istart=1003800&iend=1003942 vs http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log-raw/ossasepia?istart=1003800&iend=1003942
16:53 diana_coman ugh; is that the first out of sync line?
16:54 asciilifeform diana_coman: yours is missing a line somewhere >day ago
16:55 diana_coman ugh
16:56 asciilifeform snsabot dun appear to have missed any lines in #o during the mystery-outage
16:57 diana_coman looking in my local log, there was no talk in #o between snsabot out/in
16:57 asciilifeform correct
16:57 asciilifeform diana_coman: iirc you had a student write a db differ ? is this posted ? could then find why yours is missing 1ln
16:59 diana_coman yes, it's at http://s.ragavan.co/2019/09/bash-scripting-to-compare-the-ossasepia-logs/
17:00 asciilifeform mine appears to be 100% current ( haven't seen re lobbes's yet ) , diana_coman invited to pipe from there.
17:01 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: plox to make inquiry at piz house , see if they have an answer re dafuq , e.g. 'today we vacuumed the switch'
17:07 asciilifeform wb BingoBoingo
17:07 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: When was the event in question?
17:08 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: roughly 10min ago
17:09 asciilifeform moar precisely, tho, Sep 25 15:52:30 * snsabot has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) << from asciilifeform's local (new york time) log
17:09 asciilifeform asciilifeform noticed ~2m after
17:10 asciilifeform Sep 25 15:56:32 * trinque (~undata@unaffiliated/undata) has joined #trilema << marks end of outage.
17:10 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Is there any clock drift on the machine that logged that?
17:11 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: nope, this is from a box asciilifeform physically sat on, gets reclocked regularly
17:11 asciilifeform outage was ~4min long. asciilifeform did not even lose his shells. (tho was long enuff for fleanode)
17:12 asciilifeform i.e. defo not a mains current outage.
17:13 diana_coman asciilifeform, BingoBoingo fwiw smg servers did not reset so certainly not overall mains outage
17:13 BingoBoingo Definitely no mains outage happened
17:14 asciilifeform diana_coman: aha, dulap likewise not reset
17:15 asciilifeform the likely thing is that someone somewhere physically moved a plug.
17:15 asciilifeform ( when asciilifeform was a sysop, never took 4 whole min to move a live cable. but whoknows, orcs )
17:18 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Will take a look and send a note.
17:18 asciilifeform ty BingoBoingo
17:18 asciilifeform fwiw it's possible that the 'hm, i'ma unplug, then go smoke, and then plug in' took place upstream of piz.
~ 16 minutes ~
17:35 mircea_popescu o look, linux being reclaimed already
17:37 mircea_popescu http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937926 << yeh my bad.
17:37 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 15:07:50 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937913 << btw these need the 'htt...' for the parser to fire
17:38 mircea_popescu http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937932 << i suspect it's quite deliberately systematic, actually.
17:38 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 15:27:04 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937909 - that's precisely the sort of tasks he got because yes, needs to do more reading and to do *better* reading; by the looks of it the US doesn't teach people how to read, somehow, it's rather unbelievable.
17:38 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-25 15:12:25 mircea_popescu: could use more reading. eg : "How can, for example a compiler be in any way even remotely political?" >> http://trilema.com/2015/the-downtrodden-are-downtrodden-for-a-reason-step-on-their-faces/ specifically discusses it.
17:39 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the way i read it, he starts with rhetorical 'but how could be political' then proceeds to show entirely edible concrete example
17:40 asciilifeform i.e. demonstrates that understands answer is 'yes, noshit'
17:41 asciilifeform ( or did mircea_popescu divide by 0 an' crash before got to that part..? )
17:41 * asciilifeform brb,teatime
17:41 mircea_popescu asciilifeform, on reread yes, i see it.
17:43 mircea_popescu did not crash, but i do parse.
17:43 diana_coman on the other hand, since he's been apparently slaving away in web-shitstack & python for ages, he'll have a stab at the multi network bridging thing; we'll see if he cuts or breaks his teeth on it
17:43 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-19 05:39:18 mircea_popescu: speaking of which, an' considering we're apparently stuck with a buncha chrises over here : any of your resident knights capable of registering a chan on ~any other network~ and writing the bridge code on top of extant bot already ?
17:46 mircea_popescu http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937949 << funny, i had been describing this sorta issue for a while ?
17:46 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 16:46:54 asciilifeform: pretty interesting outage, too, net pipe gone for 3min or so (boxes still up, so not mains failure)
~ 28 minutes ~
18:14 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: yours was specific to dulap ( where phuctor db was being walked just as mircea_popescu happened to load ) , recall that other boxen were unaffected
18:15 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: this 1 was a piz-wide outage.
18:15 asciilifeform i recall 1 previous similar, ~30sec long, last yr
18:17 mircea_popescu still could benefit from more reading. "hoi polloi" for instance is a syntagma with great english history.
18:17 asciilifeform picture is consistent with 'monkey unplugged then went to smoke', i.e. 100% packet loss for ~4m.
18:18 mircea_popescu asciilifeform, hm, perhaps so.
18:18 asciilifeform wb hanbot
18:18 hanbot howdy
18:25 * asciilifeform bbl:meat
~ 15 minutes ~
18:41 diana_coman http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937958 - damn it, made me write a bash+awk to fish it out ffs, line 1001471
18:41 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-25 17:10:20 asciilifeform: diana_coman: yours is missing a line somewhere >day ago
~ 32 minutes ~
19:14 lobbes http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937788 << /me goes to re-read said article
19:14 ericbot Logged on 2019-09-25 10:05:45 mircea_popescu: it'll benefit the nooblets immensely if they seriously spend some time groking the "turn" thing. there's a time for everything ; and for most things that time isn't NOW.
19:15 lobbes our three loggers seem to be in-sync w/re: to #t: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937944 http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937944
19:15 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 16:45:28 asciilifeform: let's verify:
19:15 ericbot Logged on 2019-09-25 20:01:23 asciilifeform: let's verify:
19:28 mircea_popescu pretty cool.
~ 24 minutes ~
19:52 asciilifeform oh hey neato
19:53 asciilifeform diana_coman: plz consider to put said bash+awk in 'contrib' dir of vtree
19:57 asciilifeform lobbes: i relit mine via curl "http://logs.ossasepia.com/log-raw/trilema?istart=1937934&iend=1937941" > foo; ./eat_dump.py foo trilema 3
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19:58 asciilifeform ( granted this only worx if there's no conflicting tail, i.e. you get to the console just in time. failing that, (presently) gotta drop the conflicting tail in db before snarfing )
20:02 asciilifeform was thinking re how oughta do auto-syncs. one possible method, is for bot to take command via pm, e.g. !q sync 1000 http://logs.ossasepia.com ; would then walk last N (here, 1000) ln, and offer 'identical', 'diverges prior', or 'diverges at I', I is index, and offer alignment, operator (set in config who) can then confirm or reject
↖ ↖
20:03 asciilifeform if choose 'confirm' then eats all changes req'd to get to 'identical' .
20:03 asciilifeform another method would be that periodically tests against loggers given in config, and pm's operator if and only if finds divergence.
20:06 lobbes in general auto-sync would be nifty. but just like the manual method, would need to wait until "dead time" to prevent new lines appearing during the sync wouldn't it?
20:06 lobbes or perhaps I'm missing something
20:06 asciilifeform lobbes: not if it knows how to drop the broken tail
20:07 asciilifeform lobbes: 'tail' here being whatever lines come after the gap, and thereby have erroneous index #s
20:07 lobbes ah okay. that makes sense
20:07 asciilifeform currently this is a gnarly manually-cranked process, as ./eat_dump.py deliberately is made so ~not~ to import any line that conflicts with existing index
20:08 asciilifeform ( could of course add a cmdline param to it, to enable overwrite )
20:09 asciilifeform thing is -- imho it is poor practice to blindly pick another logger and overwrite massive chunk of own db with it w/out mechanically testing that they diverge strictly in favour of the other
20:09 asciilifeform otherwise you could easily end up importing the other logger's hole vs yours
20:10 asciilifeform so far all the gaps have been small enuff to visually examine, but this will not necessarily remain the case
20:11 asciilifeform mechanical diffing, meanwhile, is tricky because ordering is already known to differ ( almost guaranteed to differ when bots are speaking, one's own bot's output ~always~ enters log before that of other bots ; but also can differ elsewhere on acct of fleanode weather )
20:12 lobbes hmm this makes me rethink my current design re: mp-wp bot as well. As it stands, there is no way to "re-sync" since it just spits the lines into a blog post.
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20:12 asciilifeform hence why imho resync ~must~ be a semi-automatic, rather than automatic, process.
20:13 asciilifeform lobbes: it's 1 of the reasons why asciilifeform did not like mircea_popescu's original tip re how to bake logger ('just pipe it into a wp') ; but mircea_popescu did specifically ask for 1 that does exactly that, for own www, i presume he knows what he's doing
20:14 lobbes yeah, I'll guess I'll let the man speak to if he wants sync capabilities in the mp-wp-tronic branch
20:17 asciilifeform lobbes: as i understand, with that type of logger you'd have to regen all of the pages that include or follow the gap, in order to close a filled gap.
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20:18 asciilifeform ( and to do it very quickly, else someone could easily speak during the regen, and leave you unsynced again )
20:21 lobbes indeed. Would just be a buncha "update" statements that fill in the proper lines. As it currently is designed, I have it spitting lines into a flat file first, and that file is used to update the "current day's log" post as new lines are seen
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20:22 lobbes in theory, could index the lines in that file, so as to preserve ordering, as well as keep more than one file (currently, this one file is overwritten on each new day)
20:22 lobbes but idk, perhaps this is more complex than MP wants it to be
20:34 asciilifeform lobbes: see what mircea_popescu says when wakes up.
20:37 asciilifeform imho a logger that can't resync at all, aint much of a logger. but at the same time i dun see why a generate-statics logger couldn't be made to resync. simply a bit moar complicated.
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20:38 asciilifeform it'd be a 1st class bitch to resync ~from~, however. but fortunately we have other types of loggers that know how to emit lines x..y for given x/y
~ 57 minutes ~
21:35 mircea_popescu http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938022 << emerging sync language from the fact we use bots, rather than not. mindblowing.
21:35 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 20:02:13 asciilifeform: was thinking re how oughta do auto-syncs. one possible method, is for bot to take command via pm, e.g. !q sync 1000 http://logs.ossasepia.com ; would then walk last N (here, 1000) ln, and offer 'identical', 'diverges prior', or 'diverges at I', I is index, and offer alignment, operator (set in config who) can then confirm or reject
21:37 mircea_popescu http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938036 << nor do you give a shit, seeing how the lines aren't indexed.
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21:37 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 20:12:27 lobbes: hmm this makes me rethink my current design re: mp-wp bot as well. As it stands, there is no way to "re-sync" since it just spits the lines into a blog post.
21:37 mircea_popescu loggers as extant suffer from being built manalone style, from scratch, as such the only possible in-page selection is an ad-hoc (but very functional, as it happens) by-line.
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21:38 mircea_popescu whereas on trilema you have the whole power of the mp-wp selectylanguage at your disposals, you don't need the line numbers because you can just select w/e actually interests you
↖
21:39 mircea_popescu this whole pile is however a massive lesson in evolution-vs-design thematics & tropes ; that "the function creates the organ" is musky throughout ; the blogger's retrospect ("had i not done x it'd never have occured to me to do y") omnipresent ; and so following.
21:41 mircea_popescu consider both the positive (no convergence language'd ever have emerged out of "oh, phf did excellent job with logger") and the negative (without "we have these loggers, how do we sync them" nobody'd have ever understood why mp-wp is a better display mechanism than "this shit i just brewed").
↖ ↖
21:50 mircea_popescu the problem with people isn't a problem with people, but with infinities : realia is somewhat infinite ; idealia is MUCH more infinite than that (whole thing neatly mirrors the cardinality of power sets, actually).
21:52 mircea_popescu for this reason any imanentization (ie, mapping of concepts into reality) will revolve around a "paradigm" / wilful blindness of some kind. "how could i not think of that" is always lulzy -- if you thought of everything your head would explode. and that's a literalism : if you somehow fit all states of its own emptiness into a glass it'd go boom.
↖ ↖
~ 30 minutes ~
22:22 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938053 << ideally would pipe it into sumthing like a table layout, so can select w/out repeatedly including speaker indicator per line e.g. 'mircea_popescu:'
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22:22 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 21:38:22 mircea_popescu: whereas on trilema you have the whole power of the mp-wp selectylanguage at your disposals, you don't need the line numbers because you can just select w/e actually interests you
22:22 asciilifeform would also make merging cut-up lines 9000x easier
22:23 asciilifeform ( and: if yer not indexing by line , why not actually merge the text when speaker is contiguous ? )
↖ ↖
22:23 asciilifeform sorta how mircea_popescu does when writes article featuring log segment
22:25 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938057 << >> oblig naggum
↖
22:25 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 21:52:01 mircea_popescu: for this reason any imanentization (ie, mapping of concepts into reality) will revolve around a "paradigm" / wilful blindness of some kind. "how could i not think of that" is always lulzy -- if you thought of everything your head would explode. and that's a literalism : if you somehow fit all states of its own emptiness into a glass it'd go boom.
22:26 asciilifeform in related grrs, asciilifeform recently attempted backport of mircea_popescu's selector knob to own wp, but broke teeth cuz it dun know how to cross paragraphs, and i have '9000' multi-para selections, esp. in ffa series where coad
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22:27 asciilifeform so atm still using old, barbaric selector.
22:29 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938050 << if you dun actually store the raw irc lines somewhere, sync ~from~ your logger becomes suddenly quite nontrivial.
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22:29 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 21:37:00 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938036 << nor do you give a shit, seeing how the lines aren't indexed.
22:29 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 19:57:41 asciilifeform: lobbes: i relit mine via curl "http://logs.ossasepia.com/log-raw/trilema?istart=1937934&iend=1937941" > foo; ./eat_dump.py foo trilema 3
22:30 asciilifeform can't think of any reason not to ~display~ them as mircea_popescu described tho
22:33 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938055 << iirc he described , 'cheated' by running a znc somewhere and so happened that at no point both fell down simultaneously ( just as e.g. snsabot and ossabot not yet fell down together )
22:33 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 21:41:56 mircea_popescu: consider both the positive (no convergence language'd ever have emerged out of "oh, phf did excellent job with logger") and the negative (without "we have these loggers, how do we sync them" nobody'd have ever understood why mp-wp is a better display mechanism than "this shit i just brewed").
22:34 billymg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937737 << this one? http://trilema.com/2015/how-to-fix-your-local-trackbacks/
22:34 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 05:08:58 mircea_popescu: billymg, did you ever find the trilema article re how to re-do your missed pingbacks ?
22:34 billymg just found it now and read it over, did not know mp-wp trackbacks were broken in this way
↖
22:36 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938061 << prolly oughta add to this tho : fleanode not infrequently reorders lines , so might end up with some shuffled if doing this
22:36 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 22:23:37 asciilifeform: ( and: if yer not indexing by line , why not actually merge the text when speaker is contiguous ? )
22:38 asciilifeform the other thing, the adhoc traditional line select is human-friendly, very fast to grab a line url, whereas mircea_popescu-style selector less so, gotta find unique start/end text, when citing from trilema it usually takes asciilifeform 2-3 shots to nail down the correct snip
↖
22:38 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 21:37:54 mircea_popescu: loggers as extant suffer from being built manalone style, from scratch, as such the only possible in-page selection is an ad-hoc (but very functional, as it happens) by-line.
22:43 asciilifeform incidentally, if yer going full throttle w/ selectables , the Right Thing imho would be to take it all the way and make items like this actually display (if reasonably compact.. config knob?) the linked text. a la old man ted nelson's 'transclusions' concept .
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22:43 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 22:25:37 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938057 << >> oblig naggum
22:50 asciilifeform another thought : the display of literal machine-readable links verbatim in log, is quite wasteful, and if yer doing a whole-page transform, quite avoidable. why not make the cited text the displayed part of the clickable link (and orig. url -- the machine part when same is clicked) .
22:51 * asciilifeform goes to construct example...
22:57 asciilifeform this becomes : that .
↖
22:58 asciilifeform ^ in this example, as we're using line-based selector, cites whole line. but if used fine-grained selector, could cite the selection.
23:00 asciilifeform result is imho not only moar compact ( why throw the ' http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938055 ' to the screen ? ) but moar readable .
23:00 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 21:41:56 mircea_popescu: consider both the positive (no convergence language'd ever have emerged out of "oh, phf did excellent job with logger") and the negative (without "we have these loggers, how do we sync them" nobody'd have ever understood why mp-wp is a better display mechanism than "this shit i just brewed").
23:01 asciilifeform for folx who give a shit 'via what bot? was the citation' -- can put that in 'hovertext' .
23:01 asciilifeform if finally throwing out the ancient kakobreklic format for logger display, wai not go full throttle.
↖
23:10 asciilifeform would have to make the wwwtron avoid displaying bot echoes tho ( theoretically one'd still want bot echoes , to see wtf is going on when reading via live irc session rather than www )
23:12 asciilifeform ... rapidly this becomes a headache, re historic logs where 1e6 times people cited specifically bot echoes
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23:13 asciilifeform this, rather like the 'url clocks' problem, demands a 'smart' transmutation of old l0gz, somehow, in order to work 100% correctly.
23:13 lobbes aha, I was just about to mention the bot echos
23:13 asciilifeform ftr we still haven't a pill for the url clocks problem.
23:13 asciilifeform ( it is preventing import of era1 )
23:15 asciilifeform imho all of this is a++ illustration of how even in very small, conceptually (vs. e.g. ye olde c/gcc/linux orchestra) system, 'legacy' retardation gets firmly baked in and very difficult to entirely remove.
↖
23:16 asciilifeform ancient problem, sorta how the j00z ended up with a talmud in 4 langs
23:16 asciilifeform (couldn't agree on translation of n-1th ea. time they got hard-reset)
23:18 asciilifeform so things could, i suppose, be worse, era1 could be in aramaic!111
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23:25 * lobbes goes back to review trinque/alf convo on url clock problem
23:25 ericbot Logged on 2019-08-28 21:14:00 asciilifeform: trinque: basic desired scheme is http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-27#1931395
23:25 snsabot Logged on 2019-08-27 11:35:18 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-27#1931353 << phf yer missing the point , i need so that http://btcbase.org/log/2014-07-16#758070 AND http://btcbase.org/log/1945-07-16#758070 go to same thing !
23:27 asciilifeform ericbot: i'ma restate compactly. atm we index lines. by a monotonic # . the timestamps are stored as unix epochal times. the urls, however, demand a e.g. 2014-07-16 , and always did, and these both now and then were parsed via what the particular box thought local time was. resulting in headache, because machine timekeeping was , and remains, shite.
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23:28 asciilifeform this problem, incidentally, if not cured, will persist in a hypothetical mircea_popescu-style pregenned-pages logger.
23:29 asciilifeform because currently no 2 logotrons actually agree on what reich.time it is.
23:29 asciilifeform nor is there likely ever gonna be any such agreement. use of reich time gotta be made 100% decorative, or to go away entirely.
↖
23:30 asciilifeform even to actually use the unix epochal time, is dodgy. cuz, again, no 2 tmsr boxes are ever likely to come to an accurate agreement re what unix.epochtime it is 'now'.
23:31 asciilifeform so , say you have a logger of whatever type (either traditional or mircea_popescuine) and 2 of these dun agree re when a day ended -- bang, you get links that dun lead to the desired text. cuz they try to use the fucking date.
23:32 asciilifeform the historic epochtimestamps are incidentally all over the place, try setting a scratch box logger to sort ~by time~ some time and weep. ( from when phf , for instance, imported his znc, evidently wasn't 100% synced to the primary logger ; and elsewhere )
23:33 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937945 for instance diverge by 15m. and that's today. month from nao, prolly will diverge by 30, or worse
23:33 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 16:45:45 asciilifeform: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937944 http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1937944
23:33 ossabot Logged on 2019-09-25 17:01:14 asciilifeform: let's verify:
23:35 asciilifeform the heathens pretend that they 'solve' this via ntpism. but, characteristically of heathenisms, it dun fucking solve anyffin, is a 'can't believe it aint butter!' pressed sawdust 'solution'.
23:35 asciilifeform with ntpism they give up not only sovereignty (washington gets to tell you 'what time it is') but monotonicity !
23:37 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-25#1938103 << err, lobbes: lol
23:37 snsabot Logged on 2019-09-25 23:27:50 asciilifeform: ericbot: i'ma restate compactly. atm we index lines. by a monotonic # . the timestamps are stored as unix epochal times. the urls, however, demand a e.g. 2014-07-16 , and always did, and these both now and then were parsed via what the particular box thought local time was. resulting in headache, because machine timekeeping was , and remains, shite.
23:38 * asciilifeform bbl, gotta get fresh air
23:49 lobbes lol, my bots' identities are merging with my own
23:49 lobbes in the mircea_popescuine logger, though, all links will use the server-side-selectory-style. By definition those links will never agree with the traditional loggers since the latter can't span arbitrary lines / text
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23:49 lobbes but I see the issue re: the traditional loggers agreeing with each other
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