#trilema | 2017-10-14

pest - 1d 12h
trilema - 1026d

Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2017-10-13 | 2017-10-15 → ↓

00:03	deedbot	mircea_popescu: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/ZOa53/?raw=true
00:12	BingoBoingo	!~ticker --market all
00:12	jhvh1	BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 5675.09, vol: 23439.06389521 \| Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 5691.2, vol: 74451.50116852 \| BTCChina BTCUSD last: 4280.016, vol: 0 \| Kraken BTCUSD last: 5640.3, vol: 6894.7710041 \| Volume-weighted last average: 5684.24724124
		~ 47 minutes ~
01:00	ben_vulpes	shinohai: do we have a from-zero "install gpg, ... now you're in the #trilema wot" ?
		↖
		~ 1 hours 7 minutes ~
02:07	hanbot	ben_vulpes eulorum has one: http://www.eulorum.org/Account_Setup
		~ 3 hours 28 minutes ~
05:36	apeloyee	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-13#1724915 << http://www.ada-auth.org/standards/rm12_w_tc1/html/RM-3-5-4.html , paragraph 21: "the range of Integer shall include the range –215+1 .. +215–1"
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05:36	a111	Logged on 2017-10-13 15:17 asciilifeform: because 8 bits is not enough to index a useful number of 8-bit words
05:40	apeloyee	and paragraph 23: System.Max_Binary_Modulus shall be at least 2**16
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		~ 19 minutes ~
05:59	apeloyee	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-08#1723089 << ordinary shift
05:59	a111	Logged on 2017-10-08 22:14 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-08#1723058 << which op is it that only leaks 1 of its 2 operands ?
		~ 23 minutes ~
06:23	apeloyee	asciilifeform: do you plan to test how much information about operands leaks as difference in power consumption? It looks plausible that multiplying 00 and maxintmaxint consume different amount of power.
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		~ 38 minutes ~
07:02	apeloyee	continuing elimination of large temporary variables, \|E\| in FZ_Mod_Exp needs to be replaced with an index into \|Exponent\|
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		~ 1 hours 4 minutes ~
08:06	apeloyee	it seems I see how to squeeze out one more FZ-sized temporary from FZ_Mod_Exp, besides the ^^ and using a proper barrett; it will exacerbate the above-mentioned physical leakage, though... http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/XvDnd/?raw=true <- as usual, not tested.
		↖ ↖
		~ 21 minutes ~
08:27	BingoBoingo	!~bcstats
08:27	jhvh1	BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 489789 \| Current Difficulty: 1.123863285132E12 \| Next Difficulty At Block: 489887 \| Next Difficulty In: 98 blocks \| Next Difficulty In About: 14 hours, 53 minutes, and 22 seconds \| Next Difficulty Estimate: None \| Estimated Percent Change: None
08:27	BingoBoingo	!~ticker --market all
08:27	jhvh1	BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 5688.0, vol: 14061.26071216 \| Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 5734.8, vol: 52967.24614921 \| BTCChina BTCUSD last: 4280.016, vol: 0 \| Kraken BTCUSD last: 5695.5, vol: 4114.73692849 \| Volume-weighted last average: 5723.27710452
		~ 51 minutes ~
09:19	apeloyee	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-07#1722378 << tried actually using mod-exp function, not just construcing mod-exp from multiplications and divisions?
09:19	a111	Logged on 2017-10-07 19:30 asciilifeform: the interesting imho discovery is that heathen bignumtrons don't win much (or even any!) speed by normalizing the ints being added/subtracted
09:22	mircea_popescu	http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-violence-shootings-20171013-story.html << funny how it's "chicago violence" when da police execute random pedestrian.
		~ 22 minutes ~
09:44	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-14#1725195 << we don't use signed type for anything
09:44	a111	Logged on 2017-10-14 09:36 apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-13#1724915 << http://www.ada-auth.org/standards/rm12_w_tc1/html/RM-3-5-4.html , paragraph 21: "the range of Integer shall include the range –215+1 .. +215–1"
09:45	apeloyee	ok
09:46	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-14#1725197 << this is so. idea of quoted thread was, i'd like to get ffa to where it uses strictly 2 machine types, 'Word' (whatever that is on whatever machine) and, say, 'Index', which is guaranteed to be mod 2**16 or larger. and get rid of all conversions.
09:46	a111	Logged on 2017-10-14 09:40 apeloyee: and paragraph 23: System.Max_Binary_Modulus shall be at least 2**16
09:47	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-14#1725200 << i strongly suspect that this is a waste of time on pc, where even add and xor almost certainly consume variant current depending on operands
09:47	a111	Logged on 2017-10-14 10:23 apeloyee: asciilifeform: do you plan to test how much information about operands leaks as difference in power consumption? It looks plausible that multiplying 00 and maxintmaxint consume different amount of power.
09:47	asciilifeform	i'm concerned with 1) timing leak 2) fits-in head --- strictly.
09:47	apeloyee	I read that as "Word is guaranteed to be at least 16-bit wide also"
09:48	mircea_popescu	moreover, power leak is reasonalby easily fixed.
		↖
09:48	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-14#1725201 << i deliberately did not do this, because it adds loc and saves 0 time
09:48	a111	Logged on 2017-10-14 11:02 apeloyee: continuing elimination of large temporary variables, \|E\| in FZ_Mod_Exp needs to be replaced with an index into \|Exponent\|
09:48	asciilifeform	optimization that adds loc is for inner loop items STRICTLY
09:49	apeloyee	bbut fpga has little memory!!!1
09:49	asciilifeform	fpga has a bit muxer and none of the loops will be loops, lol
09:49	apeloyee	lol even the exponentiation loop?
09:49	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-08#1722435 << see also
09:49	a111	Logged on 2017-10-08 00:20 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-07#1722411 << 1 ) ffa is closed form. i.e. it CAN be written as a number of nand gates, with a 'funnel' at the top, to which you present a,b,c, e.g. 4096bit, numbers, and at the bottom in a little cup you get a^b mod c , and with NO UPWARDS FEEDBACK FLOW of information , i.e. answer comes after same interval of time always, and with strictly downwards signals.
09:49	asciilifeform	FOR ALL OF IT
09:50	apeloyee	you don't have fpga that large.
09:50	asciilifeform	i'll have a square metre grid of whatever size i can buy, if i want.
09:50	mircea_popescu	ahem.
09:51	apeloyee	i'll have a square metre grid of whatever size i can buy, if i want. << not enough wires connecting them.
09:51	asciilifeform	now this is nonsense.
09:52	shinohai	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-14#1725193 <<< hanbot has it, though I propose that when tmsr isp is functional we revisit idea of trilema wiki if mircea_popescu agrees.
09:52	a111	Logged on 2017-10-14 05:00 ben_vulpes: shinohai: do we have a from-zero "install gpg, ... now you're in the #trilema wot" ?
09:52	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-14#1725202 << i will say now, that i will not be using windowed exponentiation, because it wins nothing unless you permit indexing memory by a secret
09:52	a111	Logged on 2017-10-14 12:06 apeloyee: it seems I see how to squeeze out one more FZ-sized temporary from FZ_Mod_Exp, besides the ^^ and using a proper barrett; it will exacerbate the above-mentioned physical leakage, though... http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/XvDnd/?raw=true <- as usual, not tested.
09:52	asciilifeform	and i have no intention of doing such a thing
09:52	shinohai	I still have all the original articles saved from the #b-a days
09:55	apeloyee	for i in Base'Range loop B(i):=W_Mux(W_Mux(One(i), Base(i), WindowLSB),W_Mux(BaseModSquare(i),BaseModCube(i),WindowLSB),WindowMSB); end loop;
		↖
09:55	apeloyee	you get the idea.
09:56	mod6	mornin
09:56	mircea_popescu	shinohai i see no problem, what can it possibly hurt.
09:57	asciilifeform	apeloyee: actually no, i dun get ?
09:57	mircea_popescu	heya mod6
09:57	mod6	:]
09:58	shinohai	Buenas dias mod6
09:58	*	mod6 waves
09:59	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-14#1725219 << in your house -- yes. in , say, a racked machine in a dc -- not so easy
09:59	a111	Logged on 2017-10-14 13:48 mircea_popescu: moreover, power leak is reasonalby easily fixed.
10:00	mircea_popescu	there is that.
10:00	mircea_popescu	of course, racked machine comes with keys preinstalled definitionally.
10:00	mircea_popescu	but yes, decryption still leaky.
10:01	mircea_popescu	see alf, had you listened to me when i FIRST told you to fucking move, you'd have had a warehouse somewhere outside of shit empire, could have just made your own dc.
		↖
10:01	asciilifeform	prolly the only finalsolution to power variance is http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-16#1656782 .
10:01	a111	Logged on 2017-05-16 01:53 asciilifeform: now you store bit as ~phase~ of the square wave, rather than absolute steady state of the flipflop.
10:01	mircea_popescu	not sure that buys you anything, now you got an FM carrier wave in the power supply instead of a simple levels thing.
10:02	asciilifeform	mno
10:02	asciilifeform	you have a couple mil 'fm radios' less than a milliwavelength apart
10:02	mircea_popescu	mno i dun think so or mno i can prove it.
10:02	asciilifeform	(physically)
10:03	apeloyee	let's suppose B is a temporary, WindowLSB and WindowMSB are bits of 2-bit fixed window, One is, well, 1, BaseModSquare and BaseModCube are B2 mod Modulus and B3 mod Modulus. the posted snippet then assigns to B the power (2*WindowMSB+WindowLSB) of Base. See, we index the memory by a (small) secret!
10:03	mircea_popescu	lol this guy
10:03	mircea_popescu	apeloyee was your first sexual experience of the "just let me put the tip in" type ?
10:03	asciilifeform	apeloyee: nogood
10:03	asciilifeform	apeloyee: NO INDEXING BY SECRET OF ANY SIZE
10:03	asciilifeform	what part of this is hard to understand.
10:03	asciilifeform	no pasaran.
10:04	apeloyee	asciilifeform: where do you see explicit indexing in the posted snippet?
10:06	asciilifeform	nowhere, but not clear to me that it wins anything, and would have to be indexed this way in order to win
10:08	apeloyee	muliply-and-reduce is so expensive that 2-bit windows ought to win something.
10:10	asciilifeform	btw apeloyee what does this do when exponent is 1 ?
10:10	asciilifeform	1 is not a sums of 2s and 3s...
10:10	asciilifeform	*sum
10:11	apeloyee	1 is not a sums of 2s and 3s... << ???
10:11	apeloyee	ah. I made an error.BaseModSquare and BaseModCube are Base2 mod Modulus and Base3 mod Modulus
10:11	apeloyee	not B of course
10:12	asciilifeform	it still isn't clear to me how this algo can modexp to the power of 1.
10:12	asciilifeform	and for that matter of 0.
10:13	mircea_popescu	special cases!
10:13	asciilifeform	lolfuckno
10:13	*	mircea_popescu won't rehash.
10:14	asciilifeform	no conditionaljumps on secret MEANS no conditionaljumps on secret. no exceptions.
10:14	apeloyee	no special cases. you precalc Base0 = 1, Base1 = Base, Base2 and Base3; assign 1 to result. then you take two next bits from exponent, starting with the most significant; take B to their power, as above, and multiply Result by B
10:15	mircea_popescu	what is your definition of special cases?
10:18	asciilifeform	apeloyee: and index with a 4way mux ? that'd work
10:18	asciilifeform	i still think that it makes sense to do this only after every other bolt is as tight as physically possible -- bernsteinian karatsuba, unrolled comba, etc
10:18	mircea_popescu	so every time you calc an exp you calc 2 and 3 also ?
10:19	apeloyee	so every time you calc an exp you calc 2 and 3 also ? << at the very start, once.
10:19	mircea_popescu	hm.
10:20	apeloyee	can has link describing " bernsteinian karatsuba"?
10:20	apeloyee	*link to description
10:25	asciilifeform	apeloyee: iirc it was in middle of https://cr.yp.to/ecdh/curve41417-20140706.pdf ( which is largely about other, useless crud )
		↖
10:25	asciilifeform	and there is literally no other description afaik anywhere on the net
10:26	apeloyee	every other bolt << does this include an asm multiply?
10:27	asciilifeform	unrolled comba is here: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-10#1696236 ( http://archive.is/iMI4W )
10:27	a111	Logged on 2017-08-10 02:43 asciilifeform: for simplicity, tested the case that actually happens in practice: on a 64bit box, any ffa width over 512 bits gives a strictly 8-wide comba mult ocurrence
10:28	asciilifeform	apeloyee: if doing asm, not only multiply but add and shift
10:28	asciilifeform	( massive time is wasted deriving the carries )
10:28	asciilifeform	but i'd like an end product with NO arch dependence.
10:29	asciilifeform	i'ma eventually rewrite whole thing in asm, for special uses. but that will be separate proggy.
10:29	asciilifeform	canonical ffa will never contain asm.
10:29	asciilifeform	nor any endianisms or anything else typing it to particular iron.
10:29	asciilifeform	*tying
10:29	apeloyee	procedure W_Mul is separate, etc. a generic version and an asm version. who dislikes asm, can throw it away and use generic version.
10:39	asciilifeform	understand what canonical means in this case ?
10:40	asciilifeform	it means the thing has to be gotten to acceptable performance sans asm.
10:40	asciilifeform	and the correctness of any variant (e.g. asmed) versions, will be judged against the canonical.
10:40	*	asciilifeform brb
		~ 1 hours 5 minutes ~
11:45	shinohai	"Hey Buddy, thanks for the tip!" http://archive.is/rlSnw
11:46	mircea_popescu	bwahahah
11:47	mircea_popescu	"Some of the emergency measures, notably beefed up police powers, are to be made permanent under a bill that has been approved by the lower house of parliament, the National Assembly."
11:47	mircea_popescu	this whole bruxelles thing has totally worked wonders at turning europe into an utter shithole.
11:47	mircea_popescu	moar "unity" and bullshit please, they totally work.
11:54	shinohai	http://archive.is/6bujY <<< But yeah, my account totally gets suspended for using a bot because pr0n.
11:55	mircea_popescu	lol pantsuit, they actually expect you can ban by reference.
11:55	mircea_popescu	hurr durr ban stupidity while at it.
11:56	mircea_popescu	anyway, funny how bloomberg alligns to http://trilema.com/2014/spamming-reddit-an-experiment/
11:57	mircea_popescu	three years late, but i WILL fucking sink this whole silicon valley social media bs.
11:58	shinohai	Don't open Slate this morning then, stupidity in form of "This Week, It Was Particularly Rough to Be a Woman" abounds.
11:59	shinohai	President Donald Trump raped me with his thoughts, etc.
12:00	mircea_popescu	working at making it rougher, actually.
		~ 41 minutes ~
12:41	ben_vulpes	hanbot: ty!
		~ 1 hours 56 minutes ~
14:38	apeloyee	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-14#1725293 << lulzily, it mentions http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-14#1725240 method on page 9: "we load the entire table into registers and perform the selection via arithmetic". wonder how you have read that paper if you didn't notice that.
		↖
14:38	a111	Logged on 2017-10-14 14:25 asciilifeform: apeloyee: iirc it was in middle of https://cr.yp.to/ecdh/curve41417-20140706.pdf ( which is largely about other, useless crud )
14:38	a111	Logged on 2017-10-14 13:55 apeloyee: for i in Base'Range loop B(i):=W_Mux(W_Mux(One(i), Base(i), WindowLSB),W_Mux(BaseModSquare(i),BaseModCube(i),WindowLSB),WindowMSB); end loop;
14:39	apeloyee	besides, "bernsteinan karatsuba" requres carry-save arithmetic, otherwise it likely wins nothing. so not separate from comba rewrite.
		↖
14:39	apeloyee	!#s from:asciilifeform carry save
14:39	a111	3 results for "from:asciilifeform carry save", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Aasciilifeform%20carry%20save
14:40	apeloyee	windowed mod-exp touches only mod-exp.
		~ 16 minutes ~
14:57	apeloyee	still, left-to-right exp (as inhttp://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-14#1725202 ) uses one FZ-sized temporary less than current ffa's right-to-left. (the indexing of E can be reverted to what ffa currently has).
		↖
14:57	a111	Logged on 2017-10-14 12:06 apeloyee: it seems I see how to squeeze out one more FZ-sized temporary from FZ_Mod_Exp, besides the ^^ and using a proper barrett; it will exacerbate the above-mentioned physical leakage, though... http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/XvDnd/?raw=true <- as usual, not tested.
		~ 1 hours 5 minutes ~
16:03	trinque	mircea_popescu: possible my network connection goes out again, but what's up?
		~ 20 minutes ~
16:23	mircea_popescu	trinque for to payments, 1 sec.
16:24	trinque	cool
16:24	mircea_popescu	!!withdraw 0.236986 1BoJ1wgM446w2yKWJrPjJD7sePvs13sagw
16:24	deedbot	Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/WUU9A/?raw=true
16:26	mircea_popescu	and in the latest tardstalk lulz, https://www.blackhatworld.com/seo/any-email-marketing-expert-in-bhw-forum.979938/#post-10484037
16:32	BingoBoingo	BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA, Eggspress
16:33	mircea_popescu	but you see ? if he can believe, as i not for a second doubt he does, that "a majority of websites are not built through coding", what exactly is to keep him from believing, and in the end being ready to die for, any other nonsense ?
		↖
16:34	mircea_popescu	"the majority of fortunes were not built by work". why not ? global warming, pantsuit.*
16:35	BingoBoingo	This is an incredibly common phenomenon
		~ 21 minutes ~
16:57	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-14#1725324 << lol it is very very easy, when i see a paragraph that seems to be about ecc crypto, my eyeball jumps over it
16:57	a111	Logged on 2017-10-14 18:38 apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-14#1725293 << lulzily, it mentions http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-14#1725240 method on page 9: "we load the entire table into registers and perform the selection via arithmetic". wonder how you have read that paper if you didn't notice that.
16:58	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-14#1725327 << i don't see how it needs carry-save
16:58	a111	Logged on 2017-10-14 18:39 apeloyee: besides, "bernsteinan karatsuba" requres carry-save arithmetic, otherwise it likely wins nothing. so not separate from comba rewrite.
16:59	deedbot	mircea_popescu: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/x6mEY/?raw=true
16:59	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-14#1725331 << indeed
16:59	a111	Logged on 2017-10-14 18:57 apeloyee: still, left-to-right exp (as inhttp://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-14#1725202 ) uses one FZ-sized temporary less than current ffa's right-to-left. (the indexing of E can be reverted to what ffa currently has).
17:00	asciilifeform	i'ma certainly try the fixedtimewindow thing at some point
17:00	asciilifeform	( why not even bigger window, e.g 8 bits ? )
17:02	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-14#1725340 << i will admit to being curious re what it is mircea_popescu thinks he can use those folx for. they have the apparent intellectual ability of a turnip.
		↖
17:02	a111	Logged on 2017-10-14 20:33 mircea_popescu: but you see ? if he can believe, as i not for a second doubt he does, that "a majority of websites are not built through coding", what exactly is to keep him from believing, and in the end being ready to die for, any other nonsense ?
17:03	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i am using them for literal target practice, to teach a young kitten to hunt.
17:03	mircea_popescu	and she is learning admirably, and i am well satisfied.
17:04	mod6	nice
17:04	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform incidentally, do you recall the one with the kids making an "independent" chan ?
17:04	asciilifeform	yes
17:04	mircea_popescu	google has mysteriously forgotten it entirely, for any searches.
17:04	asciilifeform	1s
17:04	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2014/the-problem-of-enforcement/
17:04	mircea_popescu	ty
17:04	asciilifeform	np
17:06	*	asciilifeform bbl : meat
17:07	mod6	!!up wyatt06
17:07	deedbot	wyatt06 voiced for 30 minutes.
17:11	wyatt06	!!register http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/wAh1z/?raw=true
17:11	deedbot	EF2246E285906AA9F6F55406D0F6314BA95B33EB registered as wyatt06.
17:12	mod6	nice :]
17:14	mircea_popescu	wyatt06 make sure you also register your freenode nick with chanserv.
17:17	wyatt06	hi i did that
17:17	mod6	yeah, we got his irc set up, so thats his nick now. got his key in, so that's good.
		~ 15 minutes ~
17:33	deedbot	http://trilema.com/2017/the-majority-of-things-are-build-through-eggpress/ << Trilema - The majority of things are build through eggpress
17:33	deedbot	http://trilema.com/2017/the-majority-of-things-are-build-through-eggpress/ << Trilema - The majority of things are build through eggpress
17:33	mircea_popescu	ah you're mod6 kid. welcome hey.
17:33	mircea_popescu	!!up alex__c
17:33	deedbot	alex__c voiced for 30 minutes.
17:34	alex__c	thanks
17:34	mircea_popescu	aha
17:34	wyatt06	mircea_popescu: yup!
17:34	wyatt06	thanks
17:35	mircea_popescu	!!rate wyatt06 1 if he breaks anything invoice mod6
17:35	deedbot	Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/XVjx4/?raw=true
17:38	BingoBoingo	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-14#1725254 << In other developements on the belated addressing of old problems, It appears on of the small HK fish has referred inquires to bigger HK fish. More news if it goes anywhere.
17:38	a111	Logged on 2017-10-14 14:01 mircea_popescu: see alf, had you listened to me when i FIRST told you to fucking move, you'd have had a warehouse somewhere outside of shit empire, could have just made your own dc.
17:42	mod6	lol mircea_popescu
17:43	mod6	let's see if he can up himself here... standby
17:44	mircea_popescu	:D
17:46	mircea_popescu	and in other lulz, loads of larger ops (including blockchain.info) are actually behind the chain tip now
		~ 3 hours 44 minutes ~
21:31	mircea_popescu	!!withdraw 0.00953429 114KjtTEg1K17jgCRam7BqMjD8cCNYxdVu
21:31	deedbot	Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/fzsYn/?raw=true
21:32	mircea_popescu	http://78.media.tumblr.com/1419ec715a7151b74b957abd3103174b/tumblr_n5vzakMhhz1sl4867o1_1280.jpg << teh slut squad has landed ; dancefloor may get bloody.
21:33	mod6	dang
21:39	shinohai	dat ass
		~ 44 minutes ~
22:23	shinohai	In travel news: http://archive.is/8TNmB
		~ 25 minutes ~
22:49	deedbot	mircea_popescu: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/Mau2m/?raw=true
22:55	mircea_popescu	in continuing lulz, "All my ETH is now invested in alts".
		↖
		~ 17 minutes ~
23:12	lobbes	buterin's waterfall keeps a-flowin'

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