Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-10-30 | 2016-11-01 → ↓
00:00 mircea_popescu i thought it was 1.5 stuff
00:04 mircea_popescu anyway, the linked github is like the first laddel piece over a few dozen words that nevertheless made sense from end to end.
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~ 6 hours 12 minutes ~
06:16 jurov so, mcclim/climacs is apparently usable now? will defo look into it
06:17 jurov so far tried to make app with Qt bindings (commonqt), it worked but with lots of glue
~ 1 hours 39 minutes ~
07:57 jurov lol incindentally: https://www.facebook.com/notes/daniel-colascione/buttery-smooth-emacs/10155313440066102/
07:57 jurov "Emacs pretends GTK+ is an old-fashioned Xt toolkit. The entire Emacs philosophy is to force $MODERN_THING to behave just like Xt just like a 1960s TTY. Emacs does awful things to GTK+ to maintain this illusion."
07:58 jurov and dude grafted double buffering on top of that
08:05 trinque Internally, Emacs still belives it’s a text program, and we pretend Xt is a text terminal, and we pretend GTK is an Xt toolkit. It’s a fractal of delusion. << hahaha oh christ
~ 1 hours 24 minutes ~
09:30 mircea_popescu i don't get it. what exactly can it be other than "a text program" ?
09:36 mircea_popescu and in other "human encounters trilema", http://trilema.com/2014/consent-is-a-myth-lets-see-how-it-came-to-be/#comment-119601
09:39 shinohai lol
09:42 mircea_popescu also there's this kickass bird that sits on my balcony and sings the shit out of it!
09:49 asciilifeform 'I am a sinner. Unrepentant. Damned. Thusly, for me, Emacs flickers constantly. I hate flicker. I love Emacs. Something has to change. I decided to hack Emacs to eliminate this antediluvian flickering.' << i am hearing about this flicker for the first time.
09:50 mircea_popescu how could EMACS flicker ?
09:50 asciilifeform i've used emacs on pentium1 under bsd, on whatever, even on this year's crapple boxen, etc. and never saw this flicker.
09:50 asciilifeform and i don't use the terminal emacs either
09:50 asciilifeform so that isn't why.
09:51 asciilifeform it simply doesn't happen on any box of mine.
09:51 mircea_popescu this sounds a lot like "my car engine doesn't run smooth so i'm going to fix the steering wheel, gas pedal etc."
09:51 asciilifeform (probably because it never shares a display with anything)
09:51 mircea_popescu how about taking the fucking water out of the gasoline, for starters!
09:52 asciilifeform 'Emacs uses an X11 extension, DOUBLE-BUFFER, largely seen as an historical artifact. There are other hacks I didn’t describe, like putting scrollbars in their own X11 window, contrary to the intent and design of the GTK people. This extension allows us to reuse our existing drawing code and redirect it to an off-screen buffer. GTK+ or Lucid or Motif or whatever we’re using is oblivious. My diff turns scrollbars and other widgets
09:52 asciilifeform that share screen space with the double-buffered region into independent X windows. Overall, it’s a giant hack.' << this is guaranteed to break it on all of my systems
09:52 asciilifeform where i use 'ratpoison'
09:52 asciilifeform which does not take kindly to spawning shitwindows.
09:53 mircea_popescu ugh what the
09:53 mircea_popescu who thinks like this ?
09:53 asciilifeform motherfucker, looks like this was the warning bell, as soon as this idiocy makes it into mainline emacs (and it will) i will have to maintain own fork.
09:53 asciilifeform as naggum did.
09:54 mircea_popescu asciilifeform well with any luck tmsr fork of emacs will be part of gossipd anyways.
09:54 asciilifeform why not of kitchen sink also.
09:54 asciilifeform and refrigerator.
09:54 mircea_popescu hey. you gotta talk to user somewhere yes ?
09:54 mircea_popescu what, i should use qt ?
09:55 asciilifeform nobody cancelled x11.
09:55 mircea_popescu sure, but you still need some sort of ide
09:56 asciilifeform and in fact the reason the linked idiocy is so jaw-dropping is that the d00d broke the mightiest x11 proggy so as to fit his peculiar psychosis
09:56 * mircea_popescu goes back to writing alt-feminist crazy.
09:57 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: imho a correct gossipd simply emulates irc server on the user end.
09:57 asciilifeform connect to whatever.
09:57 mircea_popescu "emulates" how ? you want to import xchat ?
09:57 asciilifeform (emacs, znc, wires in your teeth, any)
09:57 mircea_popescu yes. so if it's emacs, then it's emacs, then we need to freeze a package of it or else face the eulora problem
09:57 mircea_popescu explained here like last week.
09:58 asciilifeform pretty easy to do while it is an x11 proggy.
09:58 asciilifeform if you import gtkism or whatnot - impossible to freeze meaningfully.
09:58 mircea_popescu so then.
09:59 mircea_popescu emacs frozen as part of gossipd, other implementations allowed at user's discretion.
09:59 mircea_popescu "if it dun work don't bother us - you broke it, you fix it."
10:01 * trinque lives in emacs, has it as window-manager even, never sees flicker
10:01 trinque the guy must be talking about having x11 windows overlap, and who does that anyway
10:02 asciilifeform trinque: i suspect that it happens on windowdraggatronic wm's
10:02 trinque yep
10:02 asciilifeform on recent mac, i found that emacs is simply not usable at all unless in fullscreen mode, the contents become cga-like soup
10:02 asciilifeform (but not flicker !!111111111)
10:02 mircea_popescu well if the os fucks up the video buffers, anything will flicker.
10:02 asciilifeform but who the fuck uses emacs nonfullscreen and why.
10:03 asciilifeform and yes, 'ubuntu' and all similar, belong in the furnace.
10:03 mircea_popescu you, apparently. /me recalls this discussion where he was using everything full screen and heathens balked.
10:06 asciilifeform ahhaaa wat
10:06 asciilifeform i use emacs strictly full screen. which is why i keep 4 screens.
10:06 trinque ^ neglects to mention emacs windows
10:06 trinque lel
10:07 asciilifeform well those ain't 'windows' as far as wm is concerned
10:07 asciilifeform so if emacs works, they work
10:07 trinque sure
10:08 mircea_popescu what, i should search ?
10:08 trinque emacs has its own internal concept of "windows" aside from x11 windows
10:08 trinque one emacs x11.window can have numerous emacs.windows within
10:08 trinque split in panes
10:08 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-19#1525575 << convo
10:08 a111 Logged on 2016-08-19 18:39 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i've yet to use a "non-full-screen window" for anything.
10:09 asciilifeform ah the one with the xterms
10:09 mircea_popescu the one with the windows.
10:09 asciilifeform ratpoison cuts displays apart into ports which behave quite the same as separate display.
10:09 asciilifeform so i dun have 'windows' in the customary sense here.
10:10 asciilifeform they don't move.
10:10 asciilifeform and physically cannot overlap.
10:10 mircea_popescu yeah well that is not really what anyone thinks of when they see the word.
10:10 asciilifeform probably not.
10:10 mircea_popescu shall be henceforth alfindows.
10:11 * asciilifeform notes, for the record, that he did not write 'ratpoison', it was made long ago
10:11 asciilifeform but abandoned, author went off to do something weird with commonlisp
10:11 mircea_popescu hey, sometimes being the only one who uses something makes you more than being the only one who wrote it.
10:12 asciilifeform point; it has been a very long time since i ran into anyone else who used it.
10:12 mircea_popescu (retrospectively it is evident this proggy had a large formative impact in young alf, hence all the vermin references.)
10:12 trinque stumpwm aint bad
10:12 asciilifeform trinque: not so hot on a box with 64M
10:12 trinque true
10:14 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it did, when i found it, i had been using various 'light' (e.g., 'flwm') wm, and the switchover felt quite like if you had lived with mice, rats, lice, all of your life, and then finally learned to kill'em
10:14 mircea_popescu aha.
10:15 asciilifeform and even now, using it is somewhat like not having lice in 18th c
10:16 asciilifeform folks dun even fully grasp, 'whaddayamean, shaved yer head ??' 'no, have hair, but 0 lice' 'yer a liar'
10:16 * trinque couldn't stand writing one command "open all the shit I use to work on project P" in multiple languages, the cost being stepping around various exwm bugs
10:16 trinque gabriel_laddel can tell me when I can rewrite all my elisp in CL
~ 38 minutes ~
10:55 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> but who the fuck uses emacs nonfullscreen and why. << Me, I use it like a "sticky note" on screen.
10:57 asciilifeform 'You're the guy who hacked Dalvik on Android a few years back, aren't you? So that it would load your broken APKs that have millions of methods for unholy reasons, and break the app for your users when Dalvik updates and this predictably stops to work? Fitting that having created such horrors you would have to deal with other people's.' -- from the comments
10:59 asciilifeform https://archive.is/a6N2T << peanut gallery re same. some choice lelz.
11:00 asciilifeform 'How do you describe this flicker effect? I've never seen it.'
11:02 asciilifeform 'As someone that been on HN for 9 years, pushing back on these kinds of comments is my business. This is my opinion on the value of you coming to Hacker News to complain about the author's writing style, and secondarily aimed at other commenters here. Your style of just summarily shitting on how the author wrote this piece adds no value to the discussion. Clearly lots of other people like it, this has been the #1 piece on HN for hour
11:02 asciilifeform s. If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to read it or asking for your opinion.'
11:04 mircea_popescu ...
11:05 mircea_popescu wait wait, waaaait. it being #1 now is a criteria ?
11:05 asciilifeform apparently !
11:05 mircea_popescu damn, i wish we knew that back when phuctor story was #1 for half a day. such arguments!
11:05 asciilifeform 'why japanese toilets never caught on in america' !111111
11:11 mircea_popescu why exactly is criticizing idiots "not adding to the conversation" ?
11:12 mircea_popescu very weird, the list of nonsense these people sprout. it's as if they have 0 reflexive capacity whatsoever, how am i supposed to distinguish google "ai" from some douche who spits out " Your style of just summarily shitting on how the author wrote this piece adds no value to the discussion." ?
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11:14 asciilifeform eh you already know how folx who refuse to buy into the idiocy-of-the-day and 'add value to the discussion' are welcomed in the ninjashogunnery.
11:15 mircea_popescu also, just in case anyone had any doubts - vlc is thoroughly broken. no historical package up to 0.7 (ie five years ago) is capable of compiling (fails because can't find dbus >= 1.0.0 which you know, 2006)
11:15 mircea_popescu and i can't be bothered with packages prior.
11:15 asciilifeform thing's been b0rk3d for eons.
11:15 mircea_popescu somehow i had working copies. i guess ima have to move them to new systems somehow or wtf.
11:16 asciilifeform welcome to how the asciilifeformside lives.
11:16 trinque iirc mplayer's list of deps is a bit shorter
11:16 mircea_popescu i never used it
11:16 mircea_popescu i think i have copies of vlc that i've been using since 2007 or so
11:17 asciilifeform mplayer still worx.
11:17 shinohai ^
11:17 mircea_popescu i guess ima have to look into it
11:17 mircea_popescu just hwat i love.
11:17 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it's a commandline proggy.
11:18 asciilifeform has separate modules for the raster output (including even an ascii one...)
11:18 shinohai works very nicely for streaming youtube vids without all the ad crap
11:18 mircea_popescu yeh but i dun have it so... ima have to look into it!
11:18 asciilifeform when i learned that mircea_popescu watches his pr0n on an ibm t40, i could not picture it as with anything but mplayer
11:19 asciilifeform which is what i watched with on t40.
11:19 asciilifeform (and now.)
11:19 BingoBoingo mplayer, parole, there's a spectrum on non-VLC players
11:20 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: iirc 'parole' is a gtkism ?
11:20 BingoBoingo And Xchat is? Anyways its not a VLC!
11:21 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: xchat (last i tried... has been a while) still built without dbus
11:21 asciilifeform but who knows, now.
11:21 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i have liek, old laptops etc.
11:22 asciilifeform well yes, i also.
11:23 mircea_popescu i think i may have a winamp somewhere also
11:23 asciilifeform l0l, i recall the thread, it was on an ancient mac wasn't it
11:23 mircea_popescu aha. i have tons of these things, not touched for >10+ years etc
11:24 mircea_popescu defo not prepared to cogently argue the whys and wherefores of software decisions over a decade old
11:24 asciilifeform for some reason i thought that mircea_popescu cremated all of these when he moved out of ro
11:24 mircea_popescu nah
11:26 mircea_popescu also should prolly be said i dun actually watch any porn.
11:27 asciilifeform well whatever those italian things were.
11:27 mircea_popescu well, i guess the livestream of my livingroom irl should count and that sorta thing. but i've not been following teh industry in just about a decade by now.
11:27 mircea_popescu in which interval i doubt i watched a full hour of pronz.
11:27 mircea_popescu i suppose i should actually remedy this huh.
11:27 mircea_popescu oh THAT IS CINEMA!!1
11:27 asciilifeform lolk
11:27 mircea_popescu lol
11:28 deedbot http://trilema.com/2016/the-good-book-of-progrethics-and-moralssive-behaviour/ << Trilema - The Good Book of Progrethics and Moralssive Behaviour
11:28 mircea_popescu come to think about it i'm getting fucking ridiculous over here, "oh, mp is against drugs and pot and doesn't watch porn and totally straightedge".
11:29 mircea_popescu ima go pour myself a triple and write a scathing piece about fugazi and mackaye
11:35 phf that buttery-smooth-emacs was a torture to read. it's like a text equivalent of those "heeeeeeeyyy guys it's me i'm back with yet another!! hello!!" youtube videos
11:36 mircea_popescu check out the boxxy fan
11:39 phf https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/779574186201141249/WQTyhOtr.jpg ffs why do they all look the same
11:40 asciilifeform phf: they're d00dz in their 20s, what do you expect them to look like, who else works in salt mines
11:40 trinque he's talking about the cuckgrin and weird goatee, I'm sure
11:40 phf ^
11:41 asciilifeform ah i just assumed it was the sop grin of narcissist staring into camera lens
11:42 asciilifeform (i imagine that a pyro makes the same face into a fire, a zoophiliac - while pounding into the sow; etc)
11:42 trinque reminds my of my parents idiot dog that nervously stares at you as if to say "I am good boy???"
11:42 trinque narcissist self-sustains; that thing needs pats on the head
11:42 mircea_popescu phf no the backgrounds are different.
11:42 mircea_popescu i can tell by some pixels.
11:43 mircea_popescu trinque dog needs more woods time.
11:44 trinque oh yeah, it's going mad in the house
11:44 trinque I watched it last week, treated it like a dog, and it was fine
11:45 mircea_popescu i watched yest the greatest thing ever. people took dog out to park, nice flat coated retriever. young, fulla life.
11:45 mircea_popescu it made a bird friend! the bird would swoop in squaking, feet in front of the dog, who'd chase it like crazy, then once it's mommentum ran out the bird'd wingflap to the closest tree, rest a little and swoop again.
11:46 mircea_popescu that dog ran 30mph for a solid 20 minutes until it fell on its face.
11:47 thestringpuller pets are the best work out buddies.
11:47 mircea_popescu i dunno what the bird was even, some kind of crow.
~ 1 hours 10 minutes ~
12:58 asciilifeform https://archive.is/t0uXi << in other 'olds', usg ministry of wunderwaffen has cryptocrackpottery directorate. entertaining.
13:10 mircea_popescu i have no fucking idea how they imagine physical security is to work in the hands of an adversary.
13:10 mircea_popescu pro tip : you can still jumpstart cars today as in 1916
13:12 mircea_popescu also i have nfi how they imagine reality works, but in principle it's true that "the random process of nuclear decay is the gold standard of rngs" FOR THE REASON that you can't use arithmetics to distinguish one clump of radioactive substance from "another" clump.
13:12 mircea_popescu this should be fucking evident, either they're biased or they're not biased.
13:14 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: fwiw the idea was to make it cheaper to make own nuke than to recycle opponent's.
13:15 mircea_popescu golden toilet aside, the major expense is geting the clump of plutonium
13:15 asciilifeform aha
13:15 mircea_popescu that'll work whatever incantations you read on it.
13:15 mircea_popescu "oh, we broke this plutonium". orly ?
13:15 asciilifeform and if the 'found' pu is in a boobytrapped chest that noncritically disassembles itself and poisons a square km of your own warehouse if you mis-guess a bit, you have not won, neh ?
13:16 mircea_popescu yes, but reality is more encompassing than engineering. so suppose i submerge the chest in fumaric acid and you lose.
13:16 mircea_popescu you can't predict what i'll do, and you can't ensure against all the things i might do.
13:17 mircea_popescu very much square law.
13:17 asciilifeform recall the las vegas casino bomb thread ?
13:17 mircea_popescu notrly ?
13:17 asciilifeform mines generally win the mine-vs-sapper game. which is why modern-day minefields are typically cleared by, one way or another, setting them off, rather than digging up ww2-style.
13:18 mircea_popescu aha.
13:18 mircea_popescu but the key factor there is that mines are not valuable.
13:18 mircea_popescu thieves generally win the safe-vs-thief game.
13:18 asciilifeform but i suspect that the acid will win in mircea_popescu's case. nuke builder does not want to make the booby overly sensitive, killing himself
13:18 mircea_popescu which is why modern-day banks are typically not even safe'd.
13:19 asciilifeform eh banks are full of fiatola, what's it cost to print moar.
13:19 asciilifeform quite different thing.
13:19 mircea_popescu asciilifeform problem is that the deck is stacked so much against people. plutonium is like gold, inert chemically, very heavy, etc. it stands out in physical reality like a naked supermodel among a coder convention.
13:20 asciilifeform well yes, you win vs the mine, get pile of pu. which you now gotta machine (ever machine a pyrophoric ?), rebuild the explosive lenses, detonators, neutron source, get moar tritium somewhere (where?), etc.
13:20 asciilifeform this costs.
13:21 mircea_popescu yes, all "costs", esp in the sense that if your industrial base sucks, you don't get one.
13:21 mircea_popescu but if your industrial base dun suck, pu pile is still the more expensive part.
13:21 asciilifeform and if your industrial base is any good, you can refine own pu. with the 'forbidden' laser method.
13:22 asciilifeform u is quite common in the planet's crust.
13:22 mircea_popescu in the end, all this is an exact re-do of the "car ingnition control dun work" "hey it keeps the methheads at bay" "aokthen"
13:22 asciilifeform approx.
13:22 asciilifeform and i picture that it is largely against meatheads from... own side
13:23 mircea_popescu rather likely.
13:23 * trinque recalls when nuke commander whatshisname was fired
13:23 asciilifeform general ripper: 'take this thing to the garage and hotwire it' grunt: 'i dunno how to make new detonator, the old one melted when i popped the cover with 3 wrong passwords'
13:23 mircea_popescu which is not even without merit : the next wikileaks may not leak words.
13:23 trinque when you can't trust those, your problem lies not in engineering...
13:23 mircea_popescu people somehow bought into this "public opinion as an aggregate of the supposed opinions of irrelevant individual cattle MATTERS!!1", and so we had wikileaks.
13:24 mircea_popescu as ~everyone with two neurons to rub together has been disabused of this notion, the next guy who wants to change.org might as well point a nuke to the white house.
13:25 asciilifeform sorta why potus since bush-II or so spends maybe 1 day in 20 in there.
13:25 asciilifeform when it cannot be helped.
13:25 mircea_popescu aha
13:25 mircea_popescu but the idea is to raze the anthill not the ants.
13:27 asciilifeform i always wondered if the very sad infrastructure in washington, a kind of frozen-in-time 1970s theme park, is at least partly on account of the expectation that anthill will be leveled 'any day'
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13:28 mircea_popescu note in passing that one of the more substantial objections "people in the know" aka niggers raise to a trump presidency is that "he won't be able to staff wh, he could barely staff his campaign".
13:28 mircea_popescu somehow they elide the obvious point that his right move, and his coherent with himself move, is to simply FIRE EVERYONE and then hire people as he perceives the need.
13:28 mircea_popescu first week, wifey can cook, once she's tired of it white house gets its first cook.
13:28 asciilifeform the last potus who tried to fire plum book folk got kennedied.
13:29 mircea_popescu ivanka can pick up phones until old man trump thinks she had enough, at which point wh gets its first secretary
13:29 mircea_popescu etc
13:29 mircea_popescu asciilifeform now you know why it's getting bombed.
13:29 asciilifeform incidentally here's a possible litmus: did mr t accept the 'free' guards traditionally given to candidates, or keep using own ?
13:29 mircea_popescu they all live closeby too, because dun wanna commute until they get blinkenlichten, and so double kill.
13:30 mircea_popescu asciilifeform that is a complicated point.
13:30 asciilifeform if he's using the praetorian guard, we know the endgame
13:35 phf !~later tell gabriel_laddel have you considered putting ~everything~ masamune into a single tree, prepatched, so that instead of "load X, then load my patch-foo-for-X" you just have everything under single hierarchy exactly the way you expect it to run in production?
13:35 jhvh1 phf: The operation succeeded.
13:35 mircea_popescu you could just do this yourself neh ?
13:36 mircea_popescu (in the process benefiting him by exposing bugs he dun know about)
13:37 trinque asciilifeform: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/09/12/11-private-security-firms-guarding-donald-trump.html << guy isn't stupid
13:38 trinque the framing of it there is lulzy
13:38 asciilifeform trinque: lulzy, neato
13:38 asciilifeform 'Throughout the 15 months he’s been running for president, Donald Trump’s campaign has paid private security contractors at least $432,201' << this seems cheap
13:38 asciilifeform what's 1 guard paid? 100k/y ?
13:39 trinque the piece is a hit on his security practices
13:39 trinque "What's the matter Mr. Trump? We already provided you bodyguards!"
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13:40 phf well, if he thinks that's a good idea, he might potentially save me a bunch of work :}
13:41 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> pro tip : you can still jumpstart cars today as in 1916 << Some German "innovashuns" are exceptions. Unless your bar for "jumpstarting" only carries to turning motor over then still true.
13:42 trinque phf: it's getting interesting right? it's not the final solution, but it'd be a step up from emacs if it works.
13:42 trinque and it'd be nice just to lean on mcclim real hard and see what breaks
13:43 asciilifeform '“I would highly doubt that they’re armed,” he said, “that poses a greater threat. Normally, standard operating procedure for the Secret Service is to never have armed security around our protectee—ever. Even working closely with sworn law enforcement officers around the protectee is a very delicate situation.”' << lel, no word on whether clitler and the monkey disarmed mr t's guards, but... we'll PRETEND! they did. appar
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13:43 asciilifeform ently this does something.
13:45 asciilifeform https://archive.is/VMkMn << moar lulz from same rag.
13:45 asciilifeform '... just over a week before the presidential election, top Democrats are demanding that he level the playing field and disclose what the FBI knows about Republican nominee Donald Trump’s possible ties to the Russian government.'
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13:45 phf trinque: i'd like to at least try it out. i'm unconvinced clim is a good idea, because there aren't any good implementations. mcclim is terribly over-engineered (in the best of java style, with delegates for proxies etc.), clim codebase that lispworks/allegro share is less so, but more hacky. which makes me wonder if clim spec itself is suspect
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13:46 phf in before asciilifeform's "clim is evil because athena"
13:46 asciilifeform nah mainly because slow as molasses
13:47 asciilifeform (i'm still waiting for somebody to tell me which cray i gotta buy for it to work in MOTHERRFUCKING REAL TIME)
13:47 trinque mmmm working quickly over here
13:47 phf i'm trying to spin up at least one instance of lispworks/allegro clim to see if it might be faster, but so far it's proving... difficult.
13:47 trinque but like I said, want to lean on it to find out, not decided by any means
13:47 asciilifeform ooh i almost forgot, on the cray i'll need a $10k payware lisp, yes
13:47 trinque And former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page is alleged to have visited with two Russian government officials in a possible effort to open a diplomatic backchannel with the Kremlin, according to U.S. officials. << my god, talking with russians!
13:49 trinque asciilifeform: running mcclim over here on a puny armhf without lag
13:49 asciilifeform trinque: what's running in it ?
13:49 trinque on ccl with their own clx
13:49 asciilifeform (how may character on screen? vector font? scrolling ?)
13:50 trinque ttf, just a screen with some gadgets that update periodically with new data
13:50 asciilifeform that doesn't sound like an interactive proggy
13:50 asciilifeform so what sense does it make to say 'no lag' if it eats no input ?!
13:50 trinque screen's updated with same events that are fired from user input.
13:51 trinque I know the latency precisely
13:51 asciilifeform so could trinque write 'word perfect' clone in it , and 0 lag ?
13:51 asciilifeform would be interesting demo, i'll watch.
13:51 * trinque yawns
13:51 trinque goalpost moving eh?
13:51 phf asciilifeform: it's possible they sped it up since last time we tried it
13:51 asciilifeform nope
13:52 asciilifeform trinque: 0 palpable delay between key and event was always the standard, and will forever remain the standard.
↖
13:52 trinque I'm comparing it to other tk
13:52 asciilifeform http://www.loper-os.org/?p=300 << obligatory.
13:52 trinque you're comparing it to god's own computer
13:52 trinque yeah yeah
13:52 trinque release the system; I'll use
13:52 asciilifeform i'm comparing it to motherfucking 'word perfect' on msdos 5.
13:52 trinque so broomstick
13:53 asciilifeform (in related news, apparently new crapple boxes lack not only f-keys, but ESC !)
13:53 trinque this is much better than the Qt I used for this same application before
13:53 asciilifeform trinque: in all fairness, i have nfi what you used before, maybe it was a telegraphist drawing on chalkboard. so yes, faster.
13:53 phf trinque: "dog slow" is a term of art, and it's inherent in mcclim design, because of how it's layered. "feels fast to me" is the worst possible measure of it. asciilifeform is not being particularly precise with his terminology, but you will run into dog slow once you start trying out corner cases (long unwrapped lines, fast rapid draws, massive repl outputs)
13:53 trinque sometimes you're a completely ridiculous man, you know.
13:53 trinque lol
13:54 asciilifeform 'dog slow' means that i can feel delays.
13:54 asciilifeform if i can feel delays, it is slow.
13:54 asciilifeform what is so arcane about this
13:55 asciilifeform the example earlier, 'word perfect on msdos 5', has ~0 perceptible delays. and this was on the junkiest hardware ~ever sold as a comp.
13:55 trinque phf: there's no suck fucking feels fast
13:55 trinque I can tell you precisely how long redisplay-frame-pane or w/e takes depending on what's updated
13:55 trinque *such
13:55 asciilifeform phf: i dun see why 'inherent', if i gotta buy a hardware accelerator, i'll buy
13:55 phf asciilifeform: i can feel delays in x11 emacs after working on a hardware terminal, which makes me conclude that "feels" kind of changes once you get used to it. i can't use popular hipster software for example, because it's definitely slower
13:56 asciilifeform (but there first has to be such a thing)
13:56 phf asciilifeform: inherent, because of how many layers message needs to pass through in order to do a key-press <-> render roundtrip. accelerator is not going to help there
13:56 trinque I do not make decisions in life about what to do today based on somebody else's imagined tomorrow.
↖
13:57 trinque if clim gets too slow for any of my use cases I'll find out where and work on it
13:57 trinque if that proves impossible I'll move just like I did from commonqt
13:57 asciilifeform trinque: i asked that you compare to a very factual 'yesterday', rather than imagined futures
13:57 trinque the fuck, I'm supposed to develop for DOS now?
13:58 asciilifeform not necessarily
13:58 asciilifeform but in many ways the move to multiuser os on home comp was a bait-and-switch scam
13:59 asciilifeform and full of very questionable wins.
13:59 phf trinque: i don't think anyone's telling you what to do, but to honestly consider what you can observe, and compare it to what we can observe. asciilifeform is saying that clim is slow for him, i'm saying that there's something in clim design that makes it tricky to make it fast. it's a converstion.
14:00 asciilifeform see, i am willing to buy 10k box, or whatnot, to get fast clim. but i am not willing to close eyes and call a turd sausage.
14:00 phf anyway, i want to try and deploy masamune, but i'm also trying to spin up clim2 to see if it's maybe less of a dog (i imagine it would be since it was probably battle optimized for all that ported-from-legacy contractor software)
14:04 trinque whatever emotional tic this is whereby any mention of departure from turd island is not nearly far enough (!!1!!1) is no sort of conversation
14:05 trinque but I will do some benchmarking, should be interesting
14:06 asciilifeform trinque can use whatever he likes on his box, but if i run a proggy and have to count '1, 2, 3,...' after pressing a key and before seeing screen draw, it goes in the shit bin.
14:06 asciilifeform it is one thing if the proggy's job is to compute molecular dynamics of protein in solvent.
14:06 asciilifeform then it is fine if it wants to run for a month.
14:07 asciilifeform when i ran chirality numbers for al schwartz, it took ~6 mo of cluster. and that's small change.
14:07 asciilifeform but text editor ? fuhgetit.
14:08 trinque mkay. so the simulation part of your program has someting to do with how fast the display part runs?
14:08 trinque that seems stupid.
14:09 asciilifeform these had 0 realtime display.
14:09 asciilifeform is the point.
14:09 asciilifeform if proggy's job is to let me fiddle something in real time, there must be 0 palpable delay. you would not put up with a light switch that takes random(5,10) seconds to light, and to switch off.
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14:10 trinque your bare assertion that there's some kind of inherent lag in the redisplay loop does not meet my observations, i.e. right now on my desk
14:10 asciilifeform the 'inherent' thing was phf's observation.
14:10 asciilifeform i have nfi if it were inherent - or not.
14:10 asciilifeform only that i barfed mightily the last time i tried to clim.
14:12 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560409 << guy looks like he's still trying to scrape credits out of the empire
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14:12 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 00:19 trinque: https://github.com/gabriel-laddel/clim << this would've been a fine use for V
14:12 ben_vulpes if the upside in the empire is 2k with diversity statements and safe spaces and codes of conduct...
14:13 trinque I guess it's not clear that I'm proposing *eating* mcclim, hence what I said to g_l
14:13 ben_vulpes fuck it. do it for tmsr~ the same way anyone else in the republic does it: because it's worth doing.
14:14 phf well, mcclim layers things in a way that i thought was part of the spec, but turns out it was beach's decision (to among other things support multiple different backends). when i was trying to optimize the x11 backend last time, i was hitting multiple "independent" layers, that all demanded attention. there wasn't really an 80/20 solution, which made me conclude that there's not a single subtrate that you can optimize (the way, say,
14:14 phf blit operations are your 80% in a traditional display framework), which usually is a sign of "too many layers"
14:14 trinque I'm irritated he didn't genesis v-patch the thing
↖
14:14 ben_vulpes trinque: me too.
14:14 trinque phf: g_l wants to rip out all backends but CLX iirc, which sounds like it allows for fixing that
14:15 ben_vulpes i'm less up in arms about the vpatch than i am about continuing to lend credence to imperial operations like github et al. "dear mcclim donor".
14:15 asciilifeform and what happens when i wanna plant the thing on bare vga later ?
14:15 phf not unless on top of your multiple layers you start introducing action from distance.
14:15 asciilifeform now gotta roll in x forever ?
14:15 trinque rewrite mcclim in whole
14:15 trinque none of this multiple points of bring your own feelings bullshit
14:16 asciilifeform https://archive.is/ym9JT << in other lulz, this just in
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14:17 phf i found an old screenshot from last time i was hacking on clim :D http://glyf.org/screenshots/clim.png
14:18 trinque heh such clim, much circle
14:18 * asciilifeform reads the linked item and mentally pictures it in 'hollywood ru' nonsense voice from 'red october', 'beautiful mind', and other lulgems of 'languages? we dun do these, school is for phootball'
14:19 trinque asciilifeform: really sounds like factional wars inside usg eh?
14:19 asciilifeform or cheap circus
14:20 trinque phf: what's going on with the title bar there? weird rendering artifacts?
14:21 phf trinque: it's a cyberpunk-ish theme hack from back when you could customize os x's look and feel
14:22 asciilifeform in the tarball, list of pwned boxes, ip/hostname, creds for some usg proprietary backorifice-style client.
14:22 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560707 << it's not so simple though. a lot of revolving door, you know, same one dork could be both.
14:22 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 17:39 trinque: "What's the matter Mr. Trump? We already provided you bodyguards!"
14:23 asciilifeform mostly east asia, some ru.
14:23 asciilifeform linux/solaris, if the comments in the configs are to be believed.
14:23 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560712 << the point is valid, however. armed escort is for armed lord, not for talk derps.
14:23 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 17:43 asciilifeform: '“I would highly doubt that they’re armed,” he said, “that poses a greater threat. Normally, standard operating procedure for the Secret Service is to never have armed security around our protectee—ever. Even working closely with sworn law enforcement officers around the protectee is a very delicate situation.”' << lel, no word on whether clitler and the monkey disarmed mr t's guards, but... we'll PRETEND! they did. appar
14:24 deedbot http://qntra.net/2016/10/mainstream-media-clinton-emails-already-baked-in-to-polls/ << Qntra - Mainstream Media: Clinton Emails Already "Baked In" To Polls
14:24 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560715 << aaaahahaha epic.
14:24 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 17:45 asciilifeform: '... just over a week before the presidential election, top Democrats are demanding that he level the playing field and disclose what the FBI knows about Republican nominee Donald Trump’s possible ties to the Russian government.'
14:25 mircea_popescu and in other bake-ins, http://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdh16x6y5v1rdpwp1o1_500.gif
14:26 * trinque spends too much time trying to read lips
14:26 trinque might be "you bitch" with last syllable cut off
14:27 BingoBoingo Step 1: I am powerless over lulz and my lyfe has become unmanageable!
14:28 phf girl with no butt enjoying much butt
14:29 mircea_popescu they're not speaking english. like you know, most females that a) ever get fucked and b) someone'd ever contemplate fucking
14:29 mircea_popescu :)
14:29 mircea_popescu btw phf the definition of that dog slow term of art ?
14:32 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560765 << you kinda do, yeah.
14:32 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 17:56 trinque: I do not make decisions in life about what to do today based on somebody else's imagined tomorrow.
14:33 asciilifeform http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/3cvre/?raw=true << for the lazy among us, list of pwned boxen from http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560808 .
14:33 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 18:16 asciilifeform: https://archive.is/ym9JT << in other lulz, this just in
14:33 asciilifeform might be lulzy to cross-check with phuctor, ben_vulpes's trb nodes' banhammer lists, etc.
14:34 * BingoBoingo kept telling self *this* is last US election qntricle before results, but emergent lulz flow from artesian laff fountain
14:34 asciilifeform ' @GCHQ @Belgacom TheShadowBrokers is making special effort not to using foul language, bigotry, or making any funny. Be seeing if NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX is making stories about now? Maybe political hacks is being more important? '
14:34 mircea_popescu should have prolly run uci on them rather. but of course no uci yet.
14:34 asciilifeform they're running obummer's uci.
14:34 trinque mircea_popescu: I can't develop on that imagined computer any more than Eulora wrote its own OS.
14:34 trinque that one might have to do that for both cases in the future granted.
14:35 mircea_popescu trinque wasn't waht i meant. just, your spring sprung too far s'all
14:35 trinque got ya.
14:35 mircea_popescu "CIA is cyber B-Team, yes? Where is cyber A-Team?" << i lollered. where, they're gone, locked in alf's basement.
14:37 asciilifeform 'How is being stolen goods if no one is claiming ownership?'
14:37 asciilifeform i - also lolllered.
14:37 mircea_popescu anyway. the guy has it, the us lost air superiority sometime in 2010ish and lost cyber presence cca 2015. they're on par with serbia today.
14:37 mircea_popescu what this has to do with their failure to obey the republic will, of course, never be documented.
14:39 asciilifeform poor sods will have to go on spamforum and spend another hundy to buy new chumpnet.
14:44 mircea_popescu heh.
14:44 mircea_popescu if only.
14:44 mircea_popescu the us does not have the intellectual capacity to develop new tools in general, and computing in particular. all they have is inherited, and everything they lose is irreplaceable.
14:44 mircea_popescu which is why doorko coin imports prb.
14:45 asciilifeform i'm still waiting to see them lose something expensive, e.g., the intel/amd microcode booby.
14:45 asciilifeform let'em buy a new ~that~.
14:46 asciilifeform as it is, ru derps still feel comfortable running 'outlook' on winblows 10.
14:46 mircea_popescu i dunno about that.
14:46 mircea_popescu odds are teh usg wrote its own imaginary emails in an outlook server, if you mean the recent thing.
14:47 asciilifeform i have deeply nfi, but do know that winblows is pestilentially universal in ru, in all walks of life
14:47 asciilifeform and that the elbrusistic 'we'll make indigenous base' thing never took off.
14:47 mircea_popescu some don't walk.
14:47 asciilifeform because, today just as in 1980, it is very difficult to 'compete with 3111111117 w4r3z
14:47 asciilifeform '
14:47 asciilifeform which seems like great deal, until your pipeline explodes etc.
14:49 asciilifeform aha some don't walk. there was a photo leaked of a radar base, where they had one of the few completed elbrus. in the corner desk there was what looked like winblows. nfi, could be hangout, perhaps the 'indigenous base' happened, strictly in ru meta-nsa.
14:49 asciilifeform the winblows vista - painted on, for show, for us rubes.
14:50 asciilifeform but the more likely thing is that the money was spent on mercedes and coke, and - they run win98, yes.
14:50 asciilifeform because making indigenousbase is, in reality, very, very expensive.
14:50 asciilifeform and the roi, by any 'sane' measure, is 0.
14:51 mircea_popescu xilinx.e-technik.uni-rostock.de___139.30.202.12/ << lol!
14:51 mircea_popescu i suspect this list may not be entirely correct. looks autogenerated.
14:51 asciilifeform who the hell knows, until at least one pwned chump digs up the backorifice and posts.
14:53 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo "Naturally there is *no way* that this introduction of the "baked in" line's introduction could have been coordinated." <
14:53 asciilifeform ( 'insane measure', oblig thread, http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-24#933189 )
14:53 a111 Logged on 2014-11-24 22:58 asciilifeform: jurov: tank is a particular type of tractor, let's say. it cultivates sovereignty (or did, in the age of the tank, but why nitpick) rather than edibles.
14:54 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560787 << considering what passes for light fixtures these days, lol!
14:54 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 18:09 asciilifeform: if proggy's job is to let me fiddle something in real time, there must be 0 palpable delay. you would not put up with a light switch that takes random(5,10) seconds to light, and to switch off.
14:57 mircea_popescu my call times out, thereby let us point out to phf that what calling something a term of art means is that you have a ready and perfect definition of the term in the respective context. no exceptions.
14:57 mircea_popescu as far as anyone knows, dog slow kinda means exactly that "irritatingly slow to me", to which "i don't feel any delays" is a valid counter.
14:58 phf mircea_popescu: dog slow is same as intractable but applied to system design, solution that theoretically works but in practice takes too long to be useful. depending on the kind of algorithms involved dog slow has different solutions, like if it's a linear algorithm, then you can solve dog slow with a faster machine, but if it's a polynomial complexity algorithm, then dog slow might be solved by putting constraints on inputs
14:58 mircea_popescu oh is it ?
15:00 asciilifeform the counter to 'i don't feel any delays' is to sit the 'not feeler' in front of wordperfect on msdos and watch his face as he says 'this dun feel any faster'
15:00 asciilifeform unless he is an expert and malicious liar, the game is won.
15:00 phf so depending on what sort of algorithms are used (i.e. knowing how mcclim works) a "get a faster machine" might be a valid response to "mcclim is slow", or it can be invalid, if, say, there's combinatorial exposition in the component interaction, or if there's a polynomial behavior in large text processing (those are two usual suspects)
15:00 mircea_popescu i dun think that's the common meaning ; but if that's what you use, fair enuff.
15:01 mircea_popescu asciilifeform what, because you have a magic ball and know wtf he's looking at as he says that ?
15:01 asciilifeform nope.
15:01 mircea_popescu mkay.
15:01 asciilifeform but i also do not know if he has any experience with fast comp.
15:02 mircea_popescu phf in my head, if the algo is correct but the problem too hard, then the problem is just too hard ; whereas if the algo is wrong for the problem, or badly implemented, then there's that. i suppose you could say "linear sort is dog slow", though.
15:02 asciilifeform phf: picture if your car gives out, a decade from now, and you walk into a dealership, grudgingly buying new one. there, you learn that all new cars emit phosgene gas, some of which leaks into the cabin, and you gotta wear a mask. but this does not help against the microwaves that slowly roast yer balls, from the new type of waveguide transmission they use.
15:03 asciilifeform you ask, quite reasonably, why all of this is there.
15:03 asciilifeform because you KNOW that there used to be cars that did not roast balls, or emit phosgene into cabin.
15:03 asciilifeform this is my reaction to clim, and same as to ms word 2010 and related abortions.
15:03 asciilifeform because i USED realtime comp.
15:04 trinque in what, 06?
15:04 asciilifeform and again '10
15:04 jurov lol why you must make such dire metaphors
15:04 trinque my i7 isn't fast enough for ya?
15:04 asciilifeform trinque: i have nfi, will have to try the new clim, won't i.
15:04 asciilifeform perhaps - finally fast enough.
15:05 jurov would be completely sufficient to say the reality - new cars with turbocharger have second lag from gas pedal
15:05 asciilifeform (phf suggested earlier that it is not yet fast enough. so i put off trying.)
15:05 asciilifeform jurov: then the 'new reality' can go fuck itself to death with red hot poker.
15:05 asciilifeform and i will use the old reality.
15:05 phf asciilifeform: i don't actually know about that, i gotta try it myself now :) i think we might've both tried it around the same time
15:06 jurov asciilifeform: no you dream about emiting phosgene instead
15:06 trinque my claim btw was *not* that it's perfect.
15:06 asciilifeform the implicit claim was that i am somehow 'unreasonably' expecting realtime interaction with comp.
15:06 mircea_popescu no dude.
15:06 trinque ....
15:06 mircea_popescu that's just what you read.
15:07 asciilifeform aaaaha, lolk, it was what i read, what was actually there was proof of fermat's conjecture...
15:07 trinque quote the line?
15:07 asciilifeform trinque: i was answering 'that's just what you read'
15:08 trinque to restate, and then I'm bored of this, getting no perceptable lag whatsoever between firing events to the event queue and seeing the screen redraw.
15:08 asciilifeform neato. i will try this clim, at some point.
15:08 trinque I will rape the thing with a huge benchmark and speak of it further at that time.
15:09 asciilifeform for now, will tentatively take trinque's word, that it runs in real time on new iron at last.
15:09 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo "Naturally there is *no way* that this introduction of the "baked in" line's introduction could have been coordinated." < << ty fxd
15:13 asciilifeform understand, i have nothing against proggies that are slow because they are overly ambitious, common lisp on 386, 'quake' on 486-dx2 (i played, 5 frame/sec, yes), etc.
15:13 asciilifeform what i ~do~ have a strongly developed allergy to is attempts to redefine minimal expectations using 'new realities'
15:14 asciilifeform e.g., i still have not forgiven, and do not intend to forgive, the acpi 'soft' power supply switch.
↖
15:14 asciilifeform nor multi-minute boot times of 'modern' os, etc.
15:15 asciilifeform the 'new realities' can be taken to someone who cares, in any and all cases.
15:15 asciilifeform i do not point finger at trinque , this is here for the record strictly.
15:15 trinque couldn't agree more that religion/ritual cannot drive design choices.
15:16 trinque "I am doing the smart thing by using Lisp; what blemishes?"
15:26 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560716 << see also. when i hear 'delegates' i 'read for the luger'
15:26 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 17:45 phf: trinque: i'd like to at least try it out. i'm unconvinced clim is a good idea, because there aren't any good implementations. mcclim is terribly over-engineered (in the best of java style, with delegates for proxies etc.), clim codebase that lispworks/allegro share is less so, but more hacky. which makes me wonder if clim spec itself is suspect
15:27 asciilifeform *reach
15:28 asciilifeform and my (few, and brief, admittedly) excursions into the code, did not end with walking away impressed with the workmanship or engineering quality of the edifice.
15:37 mircea_popescu i dunno who cares about boot times, a machine that's booted isn't intended for serious use anyway
↖
15:38 mircea_popescu that was the lulz of all time with systemd coupla years ago, the "selling point" of "faster boot times. for servers."
15:39 mircea_popescu from people who never ran servers, for people who never will run servers, with love & mucho concern.
15:51 phf meanwhile at asciilifeform's original landing site, http://www.darkinthedark.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/spacewreck-DSCN7480.jpg
15:52 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560936 << i care in a few special cases.
15:52 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 19:37 mircea_popescu: i dunno who cares about boot times, a machine that's booted isn't intended for serious use anyway
15:52 asciilifeform e.g., machines in work shed, connected to various cnc tools, powered up strictly while in use;
15:52 asciilifeform various special-purpose boxen that boot, do $process, and shut off; etc.
15:53 asciilifeform phf: l0l aha! somewhere in there is my 486...
15:54 mircea_popescu sure. none of which run stuff made this decade anyway.
15:54 asciilifeform sure as fuck not
15:54 phf of course, how else would you do telemetry
15:54 asciilifeform or i'd be sitting and getting frostbite waiting for boot.
15:54 phf not to mention avionics
15:55 asciilifeform but my objection is to the ~principle~ of the thing, 'what the FUCK are you doing for three whole minutes that msdos didn't need to do, and IT DIDN'T, you can't unhappen this'
15:56 asciilifeform 'bbbbbut NEW REALITY!!1111'
15:57 asciilifeform how long does it take to load 800MHz dram with full contents ? 100msec ?
15:57 asciilifeform if you have a mechanical disk, add a second or so for it to spin up
15:58 asciilifeform so where do the other 178.9 seconds come from??!
15:58 phf lizard hitler tax
15:59 asciilifeform and if os lived in rom like the gods intended, you won't need the 100msec either.
15:59 asciilifeform proper, old-fashioned, godly, pre-ban ROM, not 'flash'.
16:00 asciilifeform want new kernel ? pull out this here thing an' stuff in this here other.
16:00 asciilifeform none of this 'there are 203 updates ready to install' lunacy.
16:01 asciilifeform (recently i was handling some vaguely ubuntu-derived abortion and clicked 'no thx' and was treated to it loading ANYWAY)
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~ 1 hours 19 minutes ~
17:21 deedbot http://qntra.net/2016/10/centurylink-acquiring-level-3-as-internet-transit-routes-consolidates/ << Qntra - CenturyLink Acquiring "Level 3" As Internet Transit Routes Consolidates
17:26 ben_vulpes !up gabriel_laddel
17:26 ben_vulpes didja bring trinque a vpatch, gabriel_laddel ?
17:27 shinohai !!up gabriel_laddel
17:27 deedbot gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
17:27 ben_vulpes lol thx shinohai
17:27 gabriel_laddel ben_vulpes: Nope.
17:27 shinohai o7
17:28 gabriel_laddel phf: I have. It is called masamune, and you buy a discrete box from me that comes with everything on it.
17:28 gabriel_laddel http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560452 < correct.
17:28 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 03:33 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560415 << lol, I'm under the impression that gabriel_laddel trolls logs for highlights with a script, or would've provided better context
17:30 gabriel_laddel http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560469 < would you mind reviewing arsttep? I'm shipping it with each machine as part of the manual and would like for others to be able to understand it.
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17:30 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 04:04 mircea_popescu: anyway, the linked github is like the first laddel piece over a few dozen words that nevertheless made sense from end to end.
17:30 gabriel_laddel http://web.archive.org/web/20160604000657/http://gabriel-laddel.github.io/arsttep.html
17:31 phf oh i guess you pulled all the masamune material on account of selling it? i remember there was a bunch of dedicated content, that's no longer there (arsstep being one of them)
17:31 trinque where are they going to be sold, what's included, how much?
17:31 gabriel_laddel phf: Right.
17:32 gabriel_laddel trinque: I'm just selling them by hand at the moment in the bay area (going to google for a scheme meetup to hawk product here in ~.5 hrs)
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17:33 gabriel_laddel When my life is less shit I'll be setting up a method by which in-WOT people can get it for free. You all, of course, will be able to sell the same product I am.
↖
17:33 trinque that "free" can run counter to the "life is less shit"
17:33 phf trinque: wait, so what are you running? just own run of mcclim, or you actually have masamune deployed
17:33 trinque idgaf about free compared to say *mcclim got finished*
17:33 * phf is confused
17:34 gabriel_laddel I've been charging $200 on top of the price of hardware, but as of today (and an extended navigator that indexes all symbols and their types) - 300
↖
17:34 trinque phf: former
17:35 gabriel_laddel trinque: as for what is included: McCLIM integrated with: macsyma, femlisp, MJRCALC, a manual, nope.js and more-or-less broken prototypes of everything else on the splash screen screenshot.
17:36 asciilifeform what is 'nope.js' ?
17:36 gabriel_laddel translates js to parenscript and parenscript to js, integrated with the conkeror web browser (has same keybindings as emacs)
17:37 * trinque just diddles firefox over mozrepl
17:37 trinque my point of interest is developing climthings in a climthing
17:37 trinque would pay for this *if done*
17:37 trinque and more than you said there
17:39 phf trinque: i found an old screenshot of doing that http://glyf.org/screenshots/mozrepl2.png
↖
17:39 gabriel_laddel trinque: I'm working on completing the whole CLIM environment, but am not there yet. Still have to tie all the new logic for reflective search for generic functions specialized on arbitrary types, lambda lists of length, and return values of type to the navigator.
17:40 gabriel_laddel The inspector needs to have Isearch across all inspected objects, the graph walking facility needs to be integrated into the GUI..
17:40 trinque well I'm not going anywhere :p
17:40 phf gabriel_laddel: i wasn't thinking of selling your product, but i wouldn't mind trying to do the deployment on a own hardware
↖
17:40 trinque phf: heh neat
17:41 gabriel_laddel phf: you can do whatever. It will be free for in-wot people and I encourage you all to turn it into money.
17:42 trinque I can't help but see braindead open-sores-ism in that.
17:42 gabriel_laddel http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560441 < no mega-profits yet. Ramen profitable.
17:42 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 02:50 asciilifeform: where is the mega-profit he boasted of having from his worx ??
17:42 trinque most here are not hurting for money and pay for actual tools
17:42 trinque and the "free" can be an excuse to not produce a complete tool
17:42 trinque death to "patches welcome"
17:42 trinque not like I don't want the source, but you understand my meaning
17:43 gabriel_laddel Yep.
17:45 deedbot http://www.contravex.com/2016/10/31/bugatti-translated/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - Bugatti, translated.
17:45 gabriel_laddel http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560440 < 2.5k usd. Per month, until I bitched about it and it was knocked down to $600/mo - anyways, it isn't about the money, it's about him doing absolutely nothing with it and making a mess that someone will have to clean up.
↖
17:45 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 02:49 asciilifeform: and over what did gabriel_laddel and this d00d quibble over, what was it, < 1k usd ?!
17:46 gabriel_laddel Since then all he has done is play around with fonts to try and make them "cross platform" or something.
17:48 gabriel_laddel http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560716 < it may be that CLIM itself sucks -- but the implementation is 100% common lisp and is easy enough to mechanically alter if you have problems with it. Should tmsr~ decide to strip whatever features from CLIM and alter the spec, at least we have a codebase and spec to argue about and something working to us
↖ ↖
17:48 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 17:45 phf: trinque: i'd like to at least try it out. i'm unconvinced clim is a good idea, because there aren't any good implementations. mcclim is terribly over-engineered (in the best of java style, with delegates for proxies etc.), clim codebase that lispworks/allegro share is less so, but more hacky. which makes me wonder if clim spec itself is suspect
17:49 gabriel_laddel e in the interim.
17:49 * phf nods
17:53 trinque aha, and an anecdote
17:53 trinque it turned out that I was using some ancient mcclim from a copy of their old CVS on a particular dev machine
17:53 trinque found this out a few days ago
17:53 gabriel_laddel http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560792 < ben_vulpes sorry what? I didn't post that in here because it was strictly for defunding the McCLIM idiots.
17:53 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 18:12 ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560409 << guy looks like he's still trying to scrape credits out of the empire
17:54 trinque points to the alert reader who understands why this took so long to notice
17:54 trinque had brand new mcclim on another dev machine
17:55 gabriel_laddel have you seen the *new* *improved* defsystem layout yet?
17:55 gabriel_laddel it is buttery smooth.
17:55 trinque I am on the latest from the pre-fork maintainers
17:56 trinque re alf's realtime rant, I can't see how that's not possible, perhaps by interrupting an ongoing redisplay with a condition?
17:57 trinque and even without fancy shit like that, I don't notice a damn thing lagging
17:57 trinque !!up gabriel_laddel
17:57 deedbot gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
17:57 trinque get a new key already
17:58 gabriel_laddel http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560799 < the only way to distribute CLIM using CL codebases IMHO is as a "world" that is a livecd + the ability to install itself on another x86_64 machine, with all the sources.
17:58 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 18:14 trinque: I'm irritated he didn't genesis v-patch the thing
17:59 trinque the same was contemplated for trb; it doesn't rule out use of V
17:59 trinque separate considerations
18:00 trinque you observed certain cultural hazards inherent in the way shithub works
18:00 trinque http://trilema.com/2015/no-such-labs-releases-v-for-victory/ << worth rereading with that in mind
18:01 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1561012 << I guarantee this will only happen via use of V
18:01 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 21:48 gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560716 < it may be that CLIM itself sucks -- but the implementation is 100% common lisp and is easy enough to mechanically alter if you have problems with it. Should tmsr~ decide to strip whatever features from CLIM and alter the spec, at least we have a codebase and spec to argue about and something working to us
18:02 gabriel_laddel Noted. When I get a chance I will look into V. This means _after_ the world replication works. Which, for whatever reason, produces a linux kernel that kernel panics on startup.
18:02 trinque sure
18:03 trinque fwiw ben_vulpes already had a cl-V in the works
18:03 * trinque off for a bit
18:12 ben_vulpes the distro looms
18:17 BingoBoingo *Destro << ben_vulpes stahp using their vocabulary.
18:19 BingoBoingo A Republican Operating System Kernel+Userland should not be referred to by such hippy dippy terms like "Distro". It is a "Destro", a tool like a reciprocating saw, rotary hammer, or blasting cap.
~ 26 minutes ~
18:46 ben_vulpes perses!
18:47 ben_vulpes or maybe kalki
18:49 BingoBoingo Or OSzall
↖ ↖
18:49 BingoBoingo To go with your Sawzall
18:51 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560993 << repl repl repl repl repl!
18:51 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 21:39 phf: trinque: i found an old screenshot of doing that http://glyf.org/screenshots/mozrepl2.png
19:01 BingoBoingo brb
~ 23 minutes ~
19:24 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560960 << lol sounds about right
19:24 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 20:01 asciilifeform: (recently i was handling some vaguely ubuntu-derived abortion and clicked 'no thx' and was treated to it loading ANYWAY)
19:24 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo "CenturyLink Acquiring "Level 3" As Internet Transit Routes Consolidates" << consolidate ?
19:24 mircea_popescu acquisition anything < than anything
19:26 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560972 << sure, post it.
19:26 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 21:30 gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560469 < would you mind reviewing arsttep? I'm shipping it with each machine as part of the manual and would like for others to be able to understand it.
19:28 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560984 << so basically, you're selling shinohai -ing services for $300 ?
19:28 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 21:34 gabriel_laddel: I've been charging $200 on top of the price of hardware, but as of today (and an extended navigator that indexes all symbols and their types) - 300
19:29 mircea_popescu i think it's a very bad idea to misrepresent this (here) as "selling the box" because it'll cause you nothing but frictive grief.
19:29 shinohai shinohai - ing services ?
19:30 mircea_popescu shinohai you know where there's the src and everyone sane can ftjam it into a working binary within 20 minutes except you still get o spend your life telling people things ?
19:30 mircea_popescu shinohai -ing services.
19:30 shinohai oh xD
19:30 shinohai Someone has to teach Republican Kindergarten
19:30 mircea_popescu ie very patient tech support for people who have no business touching tech in the first place.
19:30 mircea_popescu aha.
19:31 shinohai I almost lost patience with anond until diana_coman made me feel bad about it.
19:31 mircea_popescu lol
19:31 ben_vulpes "computronium: not to be handled by children or idiots!"
19:31 mircea_popescu i never had any patience to begin with ; consequently - i can't ever lose it.
19:34 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560978 << this is pretty fucking rad... homeless dude stalks wizards on google to sell them his handmade msdos.
19:34 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 21:32 gabriel_laddel: trinque: I'm just selling them by hand at the moment in the bay area (going to google for a scheme meetup to hawk product here in ~.5 hrs)
19:37 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560997 << this is exactly how it goes, on one end of that : everyone has his own boxes / his own process for acquiring boxes. you can't buy them boxes and mail them over, not really, and if you could it'd be a specialized job and wouldn't work like this. and this isn't even the only angle, people are also variously allergic to divers proteins involved etc.
↖
19:37 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 21:40 phf: gabriel_laddel: i wasn't thinking of selling your product, but i wouldn't mind trying to do the deployment on a own hardware
19:38 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1561012 << yeah no need to defend around that flag, it's quite clear what you mean ; and it stands sensible.
19:38 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 21:48 gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560716 < it may be that CLIM itself sucks -- but the implementation is 100% common lisp and is easy enough to mechanically alter if you have problems with it. Should tmsr~ decide to strip whatever features from CLIM and alter the spec, at least we have a codebase and spec to argue about and something working to us
19:41 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1561048 << Dicks also works.
19:41 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 22:49 BingoBoingo: Or OSzall
19:44 phf !~later tell gabriel_laddel fyi a handy hack for doing binary patching of deployed lisp images http://www.nicklevine.org/play/patching-made-easy.html i used a variation of that back when i was doing lisp consulting
19:44 jhvh1 phf: The operation succeeded.
19:44 mircea_popescu !~later tell gabriel_laddel this thing is long, ima read it later today.
19:44 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: The operation succeeded.
~ 26 minutes ~
20:11 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/D0C4BBD37524C4B2B77FF50D6C2FEA19BBA9E712F17831980B534158A22C9094 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 168026500246808413594946371500907116935242852828383875540071338244632416255192144137200446307456676510422963756655778396233498197862652511153091147047408061362189507030023869131331706294089108430326902642905997078724979931491371066080376572272350746531415428594070084667426423370703132671668427480125023151189 divides RS
↖
20:11 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/637A344705C6B413E53892DA4D4E0DE421E4347FB788D3AEBF414304B0109AFB << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 168026500246808413594946371500907116935242852828383875540071338244632416255192144137200446307456676510422963756655778396233498197862652511153091147047408061362189507030023869131331706294089108430326902642905997078724979931491371066080376572272350746531415428594070084667426423370703132671668427480125023151189 divides RS
20:22 shinohai http://archive.is/Nw5Ft "I'm forking Zcash" lmao
~ 40 minutes ~
21:03 mod6 !!deed http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/1c6ur/?raw=true
21:04 deedbot accepted: 1
21:05 mod6 !~later tell jurov I tried to send the State of Bitcoin Address email to the ML, which deeded just fine right now, but nothing seems to have shown up in the ML archives yet.
21:05 jhvh1 mod6: The operation succeeded.
21:05 mod6 Perhaps you can see if there was an error. I didn't get a bounce message, yet. Will let you know if I see anything on my end.
~ 58 minutes ~
22:04 mircea_popescu happy bday mod6
↖ ↖ ↖ ↖
22:05 mircea_popescu what's the longer term plan, gonna try and tackle wallets ? dbs ? stick to general cleaning bit by bit ?
~ 17 minutes ~
22:23 mod6 thanks mircea_popescu
22:24 mod6 Well, short term, I think the current goal is to get through some of these vpatch submissions as we said we would. Hopefully get through a bunch by year end. (Jan 8th) However, the longer term goal is to work on Ideal bitcoin.
22:25 mod6 I suspect the long term plan will come into better focus as we start to dig into some of these short term ones though.
22:26 mod6 So right now, the import/dump priv key is being reviewed/reground/updated/tested. Next, I'd say we take a hard look at maybe the rawtx one, or maybe even some of the log cleanup ones? There were a whole bunch submitted by polar_beard.
22:27 mod6 I would really like to get some of the low-hanging fruit taken care of in the wallet though.
22:28 mod6 Another long term goal is to possibly get some more unit tests written for trb. Might not even need to be something in the perm source base, but something as an overlay to give us confidence when we make critical changes down the road.
22:30 mod6 In all reality, now that we've gotten through the immediate build issues, now the real hard work begins.
22:31 mod6 It'll be a challenge, but good for all in the end.
22:32 trinque a rawtx command would be *very* nice
22:32 mod6 *nod* it's on the short list for sure.
22:32 mod6 helping you (among many other end users), have a better/easier time with the wallet is a huge win.
22:36 * shinohai thinks it is nice to finally read a Bitcoin development conversation that doesn't include the term `Segwit`
22:38 mod6 Getting a way from bdb will be a huge long term scalability effort. And we've had some very interesting ideas suggested for replacement. So I think that'll be a whole part of the Ideal Bitcoin probably. Right now, tickets 6, 7, and 8 are on a disconnected graph, but could be easily joined to the greater "Ideal" effort.
22:38 mod6 I'm sure there will be some further re-alignment of tasks in coming weeks, etc.
22:38 mod6 shinohai: =]
22:40 shinohai I'm so tired of seeing it when I troll for articles I'm thinking of writing a script that blocks it from my browser
22:40 mod6 you've thrown some good punches while trolling lately. i've lul'd.
22:41 shinohai xD
22:42 mod6 Anyway, overall, I'm super excited for the future of TRB.
22:43 mod6 Many technical challenges lie ahead, but with the help of the Lords of tmsr~ and the community at large, we'll be successful.
22:45 * shinohai noda
22:45 shinohai *nods
22:46 deedbot http://deedbot.org/bundle-436841.txt
22:46 mod6 !~bcstats
22:46 jhvh1 mod6: Current Blocks: {"blockcount":436845} | Current Difficulty: 2.5361824664148953E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 437471 | Next Difficulty In: None blocks | Next Difficulty In About: None | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
22:55 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-01#1561085 << austria; spain
22:55 a111 Logged on 2016-11-01 00:11 deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/D0C4BBD37524C4B2B77FF50D6C2FEA19BBA9E712F17831980B534158A22C9094 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 168026500246808413594946371500907116935242852828383875540071338244632416255192144137200446307456676510422963756655778396233498197862652511153091147047408061362189507030023869131331706294089108430326902642905997078724979931491371066080376572272350746531415428594070084667426423370703132671668427480125023151189 divides RS
22:55 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> acquisition anything < than anything << ty fxdx2
22:57 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1561048 << Dicks also works. << You can't have a fucksaw without a sawzall
22:57 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 22:49 BingoBoingo: Or OSzall
22:59 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560979 << how does this 'when' part work? martians drop 'care package' like usg drops ammo for isis ?
22:59 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 21:33 gabriel_laddel: When my life is less shit I'll be setting up a method by which in-WOT people can get it for free. You all, of course, will be able to sell the same product I am.
23:03 BingoBoingo !!deed http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/tlnv2/?raw=true
23:03 deedbot accepted: 1
23:04 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1561009 << and gavin gets 10x that, but somehow nobody 'has to clean up' his shit
23:04 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 21:45 gabriel_laddel: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560440 < 2.5k usd. Per month, until I bitched about it and it was knocked down to $600/mo - anyways, it isn't about the money, it's about him doing absolutely nothing with it and making a mess that someone will have to clean up.
23:04 asciilifeform just ignore it, costs 0
23:04 BingoBoingo Fuck wrong month in text
23:05 BingoBoingo !!deed http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/qcu15/?raw=true
23:06 deedbot accepted: 1
23:06 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1561075 << aha, the chance that he comes up with iron that i would permit in my house, is ~0
23:06 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 23:37 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560997 << this is exactly how it goes, on one end of that : everyone has his own boxes / his own process for acquiring boxes. you can't buy them boxes and mail them over, not really, and if you could it'd be a specialized job and wouldn't work like this. and this isn't even the only angle, people are also variously allergic to divers proteins involved etc.
23:07 asciilifeform not even a stab at gabriel_laddel, but at current hardware drought.
23:10 BingoBoingo Anyways, reall Halloween truth. When Elliot was in that Spielberg movie ET, Elliot did not dress up the alien as a ghost. Elliot dressed the alien up as a klansman.
23:13 mircea_popescu mod6 yeah raw tx / log fixing sounds pretty great actually.
23:15 mircea_popescu the thing with the db is, i keep thinking about it and i keep failing to convince myself a db is even needed in the first fucking place. truth be told blockchain is the textbook example of "you don't db this shit son, use the filesystem"
23:16 mod6 Ah indeed, an 'interesting idea'. I'm excited to see where we can take that.
23:16 mircea_popescu just the benefit of NOT haviong a whole pile of code in there doing "db" is already immense ; but there's actually no gain from slowing down the disk seeks etc through extra wrappings
23:17 mircea_popescu mod6 iirc it keeps popping up w/e we discuss the bitcoin db monstrosity, which is about each 9 months.
23:17 mod6 Agree, we've def. discussed a few times.
23:20 mircea_popescu also i have nfi what "db" we can trust. they're all shit
↖
23:20 mircea_popescu (large codebase, many changes, many "developers" === shit, by definition, no way out of this)
23:20 mod6 yeah, me either. they're garbage.
23:21 mircea_popescu and so what, we'll freeze a 2mn loc monstrosity ? you and what army ?
23:21 mod6 yeah, no way.
23:22 mod6 i think putting effort into: http://thebitcoin.foundation/tickets/trb_tickets.html#6 is the right idea.
23:22 mircea_popescu and then of course they'll discover this nice bug that's been there for 10 years and utterly ruins you. so you gotta update. except the only update available is made by florian "i eat shit for breakfast" weimer and well... it contains 3 extra holes to be burned in 2025
23:23 mircea_popescu mod6 note i'm not even discussing a special fs. that's a while down the road. for now, all that's needed is some serious profiling work, to see how we store the thing. prolly as block = file ? and just use a normal ext4 or w/e
23:23 mircea_popescu actually, improving logging to add some hooks for profiling in there may be a good idea.
23:24 mircea_popescu i have nfi how satoshi reasoned to arrive at the current nonsense of 2gb monoliths, but it was dumb.
↖
23:25 mod6 sure, i think going block -> certainly fits into the same paradigm as eatblock/dumpblock.
23:25 mircea_popescu yeah.
23:25 mod6 bah *block->file
23:25 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> i have nfi how satoshi reasoned to arrive at the current nonsense of 2gb monoliths, but it was dumb. << FAT32 file size limit
23:25 mircea_popescu moreover, the disks / kernel are exactly optimized for this task. fuck around with ~mb ish item on disk
23:25 trinque BingoBoingo: aha
23:25 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo he could have made dirs ffs.
23:25 BingoBoingo But with blockindex.dat NO ONE COULD HAVE FORSEEN!!!
23:26 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo he could have made dirs ffs. << IF he could he would not be Satoshi!
23:26 mircea_popescu block N is found in <dir first 1/4 butes>/<dir 2nd 1/4 butes>/<dir 3rd 1/4 butes>/last 1/4 bytes.block
23:26 mircea_popescu or w/e, what was the limit, something stupid like 32k files ?
23:29 mircea_popescu and it's also immensely ssd friendly : you don't touch most blocks. say you keep i dunno, 12 or something like that, user-configured, in memory. this way, you only write them to disk once.
23:29 mircea_popescu the flash cells will love you.
23:29 mircea_popescu pop a fresh 8x TB ssd in a 1+0 raid array, ten years later they're within 95% of factory speeds. because never fragmented, because nothing ever deleted.
23:30 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-01#1561145 << you can take ~this~ to the bank!1111
23:30 a111 Logged on 2016-11-01 03:20 mircea_popescu: also i have nfi what "db" we can trust. they're all shit
23:30 BingoBoingo To the Republic I pose New Header for the gray lady with the rabbit hat. "Qntra - [Fill-this-blank] Of The Most Serene Republic"
23:30 mircea_popescu what was it, Mainstream News Outlet ?
23:30 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-01#1561154 << those are blox, mircea_popescu
23:30 a111 Logged on 2016-11-01 03:24 mircea_popescu: i have nfi how satoshi reasoned to arrive at the current nonsense of 2gb monoliths, but it was dumb.
23:31 asciilifeform 0 to do with index db
23:31 mircea_popescu sorry ?
23:31 asciilifeform they ain't bdb turds
23:31 mircea_popescu they are still turds. i don't want to seek in a fucking 2gb file to find block N
23:31 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> what was it, Mainstream News Outlet ? << "Propaganda Mouthpiece"?, Whatever it is this question now goes to the Peerage for suggestions.
23:31 mircea_popescu kernel / os / disks are not made for this
23:31 asciilifeform but sequential tapes of blox, see the blkcut thread.
23:31 mircea_popescu so ?
23:31 asciilifeform and yes they oughta be files.
23:31 mircea_popescu myeah.
23:32 asciilifeform issue becomes when you try and make tx also files.
23:32 mircea_popescu you do ?
23:32 asciilifeform the only 'humans' fs that is even remotely up to this task is reiser's.
23:32 mod6 <+BingoBoingo> To the Republic I pose New Header for the gray lady with the rabbit hat. "Qntra - [Fill-this-blank] Of The Most Serene Republic" << Chronicle ?
23:32 mircea_popescu i dunno that you'd want to make txn files really. they're small, just load their block in memory.
23:32 asciilifeform yes but which block
23:33 mircea_popescu mod6 that's mroe the log neh ?
23:33 trinque Lulzgusher.
23:33 asciilifeform that's what the index db is ~for~
23:33 mod6 mircea_popescu: ah, fair point.
23:33 asciilifeform is to 'which block is tx X in'
23:33 asciilifeform aha
23:33 mircea_popescu asciilifeform sure. i suppose you save lookup tables huh.
23:34 mircea_popescu a clever design for which would be muchly useful.
23:34 trinque doing something non-idiotic with the set of utxos seems unavoidable if you want to use the thing
23:34 asciilifeform btw if shitoshi weren't dropped as a baby, 'which block' would be baked into tx id.
23:34 asciilifeform or similar.
23:34 mircea_popescu myeah.
23:34 mircea_popescu reverse ptr for the love of fuck. it's FOUR BYTES OMFG
23:34 asciilifeform no shortage of these.
23:34 mircea_popescu myeah.
23:35 asciilifeform and if you cannot do 'which block' because impatient and gotta have txid IMMEDIATELY, then 'top block at time of baking' at least
23:35 mircea_popescu definitely trb fork will have a sane tx-to-block coding scheme
23:35 mircea_popescu asciilifeform no, the txid as used in mempool and the txid as used in block is not required to match.
23:36 mircea_popescu they're entirely separate concepts, mashed together because idiots think that the way the world appears to them in the moment is the way the world is.
23:37 asciilifeform every time i open a notebook and start in these, i barf upon realizing that there is more of these than of sane design decisions.
23:37 mircea_popescu the three girls presently in the room have three girls names, but if i have them fuck each other and film the proceedings the filename will be something with a time in it. apparently this doesn't make the walls collapse on my head.
23:37 mircea_popescu because lo and behold, the mempool of their presence and the blockchain of their past deeds are not the same exact fucking item.
23:39 asciilifeform mempool is a can of worms that deserves own thread
23:39 mircea_popescu sadly. the main thing that holds back sanevelopment on trb is the fact that whatever you want to discuss everyone starts muttering curses and mashing kbd about the 10bn other things connected.
23:40 asciilifeform i'm not convinced that it even belongs in same proggy
23:40 trinque for that matter neither the "utxos and other lookups"
23:40 mircea_popescu it's clear that it needs a message queue / interface with the proggy, but that's about all that's clear.
23:41 asciilifeform trinque: lookups become fairly straightforward matter if sane db
23:41 mircea_popescu db is overkill for this. all you want is 3 things.
23:41 asciilifeform query against blocks, not some running process
23:42 mircea_popescu ^
23:42 trinque aha same page.
23:42 asciilifeform (at no point do i give a fuck what is in mempool, unless i put it there)
23:42 mircea_popescu not unless you're mining, which doesn't belong mashed in here.
23:43 asciilifeform aha
23:43 asciilifeform or engaging in propagation 'astronomy'
23:44 trinque blockhuckerd seems almost approachable
23:44 trinque as compared to bitcoind
23:44 mircea_popescu very much so. also happens to be the correct approach.
23:46 asciilifeform see the obligatory surgeon's knife thread,
23:46 asciilifeform this thing is long overdue for the cut.
23:47 trinque I will be interesting to hear what ben_vulpes has to say about this, given recent block-parsing adventures
↖
23:47 trinque *interested
23:48 asciilifeform and the glomming of otherwise separate concerns is one of the things that makes reading trb a reliable headache.
23:50 mircea_popescu the only correct way to do this is to make a binary tree out of txids and save that somehow isn't it
23:54 mircea_popescu how about this scheme : you do /bitcoin/blockid/aaaa/bbbb/cccc/dddd/ a total of 16 levels, off the blockid, wherein at the end a block.dat 1mb file is found. you also do /bitcoin/txid/aaaa/bbbb/ etc also 16 levels, the last of which you SIMLINK to the correct block.dat dir
23:54 mircea_popescu whenever you process a new block, you add the needed simlinks in /txid/etc
23:55 mircea_popescu (speaking of which : maxsimlinks used to be hardcoded to 40 via param.h for reasons. dunno if still the case)
23:56 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: well yes, this'd the 'on top of human fs' scheme suggested in earlier threads
23:56 mircea_popescu works on ext2!
23:56 asciilifeform it'll sorta work if you're on reiserfs
23:57 asciilifeform 'works' consists of two things, 'correct' and 'keeps time'
23:57 mircea_popescu what time ? a txid doesn't change what block it's in does it ?
23:57 asciilifeform nono
23:57 asciilifeform keeps up with real time.
23:57 asciilifeform as, e.g., pogo with mechanical hdd does not.
23:58 mircea_popescu this'd be a ssds in raid thing.
23:58 asciilifeform even then
23:58 mircea_popescu symlinking is that slow ?
23:58 asciilifeform pile up layers, with poor impedance match, and you get 'a clim'
23:58 mircea_popescu a block only comes in every x minutes, only has a hundred or so txn if that.
23:58 mircea_popescu which layers are we piling ?
23:58 asciilifeform or ever wonder why winblows is slow? this'd be why.
23:59 mircea_popescu the one concern is that 5mn simlinks in you'll discover that "oops, we decided X number of simlinks should be enough for everyone fuck you"
23:59 asciilifeform hence reiser.
23:59 mircea_popescu hence looking into what ext2 does if you do a lot of simlinks. not like this can't be dry run with bogodata.
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