Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-11-01 | 2016-11-03 → ↓
01:06 BingoBoingo !~tslb
01:06 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Time since last block: 49 minutes and 39 seconds
~ 5 hours 27 minutes ~
06:34 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-02#1561805 << one important point is that the checking of common fs (ext2, ext4, w/e) wrt to feasibility of the symlink scheme proposed couold be started right now.
06:34 a111 Logged on 2016-11-02 01:55 mod6: ok, well, at least i've got some breadcrumbs back to that great convo lastnight.
06:34 mircea_popescu prolly the linchpin of the entire thing, if we can actually use off the shelf fs we can almost even proceed.
06:37 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-02#1561808 << still has to be separate from that because of the risks involved in fucking up the wallet. nobody cares you leak your tx index say, that's public.
06:37 a111 Logged on 2016-11-02 03:16 ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-01#1561232 << merely that wallet might reasonably be muntzed out of bitcoind proper into block-muncher-and-tx-indexer. topologically very similar to "reindex" and friends, but could eschew "wallet" idiocies involving change addresses and sensible address reuse.
06:38 mircea_popescu also, what do you mean "whom" ? address ? you'll have duplicate indexes.
~ 51 minutes ~
07:30 deedbot http://trilema.com/2016/qntra-sqntr-october-2016-statement/ << Trilema - Qntra (S.QNTR) October 2016 Statement
07:32 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo the Alert system having long been long purged << extra words!!!
07:32 mircea_popescu jurov shares added.
07:33 shinohai Buena dias mircea_popescu o/
07:33 mircea_popescu hola!
~ 50 minutes ~
08:24 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: ty snipped
~ 30 minutes ~
08:55 BingoBoingo In other news Qntra has been sitting at 2100 comments for some time now. There's a Qntest going on, so pls to correct.
08:55 BingoBoingo brb
09:01 mircea_popescu and in other loving homes & gardens, http://68.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3uaox7LWJ1qk6jw7o1_1280.jpg
~ 17 minutes ~
09:18 asciilifeform in other lulz, http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2016/11/flotsam-on-fetid-tide.html , 'As she coughs, staggers, convulses, lies, pilfers, sells favors and lapses into intermittent confusion, she still has the courage to tell America that she loathes half of it. That´s candor.'
09:21 asciilifeform and lol, apparently guest piece by... fred reed
09:22 mircea_popescu i dunno why they find it remarkable, it's the end game for middle class womanhood since well before the french revolution.
09:22 * asciilifeform had nfi he were still around. was a favourite of uncle al.
09:23 mircea_popescu asciilifeform weirdly enough, the uk press moved to a "trump will win" stance, from sky to telegraph etc.
09:24 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: american, also, they traditionally do this in the last days leading up to election to help nail a designated loser with 'turnout encouragement'
09:24 mircea_popescu https://archive.is/LCAnf << even the most rabid socialists. the tinge of schadenfreude, delicious as it may be, is still the only distinguishing decoration between "tory" and labour.
09:25 asciilifeform why the british are involved, i have nfi.
09:25 asciilifeform (possibly because they haven't own brains, are simply an anal wart on usa now.)
09:25 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-02#1561808 << i got prototype for that. there's only one method called from entire wallet codebase that injects the prepped up transaction into the general pool. i replaced it (or rather, right now it's augmented) with a shiva foreign call that takes a list of bytes, deserailizes it into transaction, and does the injection
09:25 a111 Logged on 2016-11-02 03:16 ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-01#1561232 << merely that wallet might reasonably be muntzed out of bitcoind proper into block-muncher-and-tx-indexer. topologically very similar to "reindex" and friends, but could eschew "wallet" idiocies involving change addresses and sensible address reuse.
09:26 asciilifeform phf: consider posting this
09:26 mircea_popescu yeh
09:27 phf yeah, it needs some more work. i think that wallet needs to be augmented do operations via shiva, but then instead of injecting it should do a call out into shiva of a byte list of transaction. once i get there, i'll do a post
09:32 mircea_popescu alternatively, wallet could run as entirely separate process, and relay its txn by connecting to a node as if it were a node. except it asks for no txn.
09:32 phf afaik wallet relies on some knowledge of blockchain, so airgapped solution will be a combination of blockchain eater and an augmented wallet. so you have two parallel nodes red and black. black sits on the wire and receives transaction, spitting blocks. you batch carry blocks to red, red eats them, you do your wallet operations, pick up serialized byte lists, carry them back to black, inject. etc
09:32 mircea_popescu phf in principle wallet has all the knowledge of blockchain it cares about.
09:33 phf in principle yes
09:33 mircea_popescu i'm not altogether sure such a drastic separation can be implemented - but it seems theoretically possible
09:33 mircea_popescu maybe worth pursuing.
09:33 asciilifeform it really depends on what you expect out of 'wallet'
09:33 mircea_popescu IF the wallet is correctly implemented (as discussed, text files etc), then fixing any problem is trivial for the operator.
09:34 mircea_popescu asciilifeform EXACT same as the derps doing nuke security explained they expect in yest linked article. "that the authorised people can launch easily and no one else can period."
09:34 phf but i think asciilifeform also had an imperative of keeping trb canonical sourth of all btc knowledge, so that wallet stays in (so that you can read and know what wallet even is), but you solve the separation by starting the daemon with different flags indicating intended usecase
09:34 mircea_popescu bitcoin wallet is very literally superset of nuclear briefcase.
09:34 asciilifeform that goes without saying. but does it really need to also be a miniature node ? or can wallet simply do the one essential thing, sign payloads with privkeys
09:34 mircea_popescu asciilifeform and not relay them at all ?
09:35 mircea_popescu phf yes but it seems it was at least tacitly agreed a package of tools is acceptable rather than monolith.
09:35 asciilifeform spits out signed string, which you then drop in the hopper of an operating node.
09:35 mircea_popescu asciilifeform also acceptable. but in neither these designs does wallet have access to blockchain.
09:35 mircea_popescu it's just somehow assumed it does ; but there's no reason for it to.
09:35 asciilifeform in the picture phf drew, it does
09:36 mircea_popescu well yes, hence this discussion.
09:36 asciilifeform imho private keys don't belong anywhere near a node.
09:36 mircea_popescu im of the same sentiment.
09:36 mircea_popescu they do not belong on an internet-connected machine, to be clear.
09:37 mircea_popescu MAYBE something like "only open port is X and only process connects to it is Y and ALL Y does is push data out so and so" may work.
09:37 mircea_popescu but that's as far as that goes.
09:37 asciilifeform given nic dma and other wonders, i would not even sign under this.
09:37 phf well you have a concept of an airgapped node already. it's the one where you rely on a whole different networked node to build a blockchain for you, and inject blocks into your airgapped node for you. there's hell of attack vector here though
09:37 asciilifeform serial diode - yes.
09:37 mircea_popescu phf myeah.
09:38 asciilifeform phf: it isn't clear that the signing box needs to see raw blocks.
09:38 mircea_popescu ^
09:38 asciilifeform it only needs to see the payloads for signing.
09:38 mircea_popescu or any blocks in general. only you can spend, therefore only your updates are interesting to it.
09:38 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i don';t think the wallet should do only signing. it should also do coinbase selection.
09:39 asciilifeform this is where it gets painful
09:39 phf that seems tricky, as far as my work is concerned, definitely version 3
09:39 mircea_popescu myeah.
09:39 asciilifeform because there exists this animal, that isn't even properly part of bitcoin, called the unmined tx
09:39 mircea_popescu BUT! coinbase selection is the MOST IMPORTANT part of bitcoin privacy
09:39 mircea_popescu and unsurprisingly, the one that got 0est of prb effort.
09:40 mircea_popescu asciilifeform explain ?
09:40 asciilifeform well, see the doublespend threads
09:40 mircea_popescu you mean the malleation stuff ?
09:40 asciilifeform trb wallet is every bit as broken as prb wallet in this respect
09:40 asciilifeform for instance.
09:41 mircea_popescu that finally got irretrievably broken as i reported here a while back.
09:41 mircea_popescu now high-s are doublespent automatically by transactions that oficially "do not exist",
09:41 mircea_popescu notwithstanding that they are reported as doublespends.
09:41 mircea_popescu pretty eggregious nonsense, vaguely surprised nobody gave a shit about it then, but w/e.
09:41 mircea_popescu unless there's 17 btc to dream about and blood in the water from decapitated project nobody actually gives a shit about the network.
09:44 asciilifeform i still don't fully grasp ~why~ the malleatron fires ONLY when the maker of original tx tries to doublespend own coin by making new one
09:44 mircea_popescu this is not how it works ?
09:44 asciilifeform this happened to me, while using bbet to lose 5btc on go players.
09:44 asciilifeform and on one other uninteresting occasion prior
09:46 mircea_popescu that i think is unrelated. i was talkign about https://archive.is/HG8sD https://archive.is/pmq78 stuff.
09:48 asciilifeform the entire notion of 'marked as doublespend' is odd
09:48 mircea_popescu (originally reported back in sept, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-11#1539608 )
09:48 a111 Logged on 2016-09-11 16:28 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-11#1539596 << fwiw, as far as i can tell, my boxes never saw these.
09:49 mircea_popescu it's a kludge.
09:49 asciilifeform it's a nonsense. miners can induce pretty much anyone to 'doublespend' by failing, for long enough, to mine a tx
09:50 mircea_popescu anyway, the point being, the miner cartel brink-of-war event didn't proceed, but "equipment" derived from it is now widely deployed, and as you can observe it can selectively disappear txn from the mempool.
09:50 asciilifeform there is nothing intrinsically illegitimate about a 'doublespend'.
09:50 mircea_popescu notwithstanding that those txn are valid in all respects.
09:51 asciilifeform as i understand, it works by making mircea_popescu 'taint' (yes) his coins with 'doublespendiness'
09:51 mircea_popescu i don't follow.
09:51 asciilifeform and then the tx using these inputs get dropped by derps.
09:51 mircea_popescu ah. yeah, possibly.
09:52 mircea_popescu this is quite likely how it works, though the taint is currently attached to the txn itself rather than the inputs. while supplies last, anyway.
09:52 asciilifeform and pretty much everyone who has attempted to fire a tx using trb prior to mod6's 'S' patch, now has a supply of such 'evil' coin with which to test this hypothesis, if he wants.
09:52 mircea_popescu aha.
09:53 mircea_popescu because you simply can't get the taint out of the stupid head. it's born with it, will die with it.
09:53 mircea_popescu "gotta have taint! its how the world works!"
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09:53 asciilifeform the tale of procrustes had a point
09:53 mircea_popescu and in other news, flying sluts http://68.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m93xj64NMw1r1ff3no1_1280.jpg
09:53 asciilifeform stupid folk cannot resist the urge to actually try an' cut the world to fit in stupid head.
09:54 mircea_popescu thopugh i suspect the words urge and resist are misemployed.
09:56 asciilifeform 'the selectively disappear tx' is not afaik really it, this weapon cannot be aimed.
09:56 mircea_popescu anyway. the case that the current set of derps doing the mining will be allowed to continue remains dubious.
09:56 asciilifeform (or rather, it ~can~ be aimed, but very cumbersome, like 'bertha' cannon, they gotta not-mine your tx first, make you double up)
09:56 mircea_popescu asciilifeform works about as well as everything else usg.
09:57 asciilifeform hard to see what could replace 'current set of derps' other than a quite identical set
09:57 asciilifeform mining is -ev.
09:58 mircea_popescu fucking your girlfriend is also -ev.
09:59 asciilifeform well yes, we had the '-ev rocket' thread not long ago.
09:59 mircea_popescu anyway. to not get entirely sidetracked : the exact sense in which wallet should be separated from rest of trb needs a lot more thinking.
10:00 asciilifeform there is a small and enumerable, without difficulty, number of possible places to make the cut.
10:00 mircea_popescu lets hear
10:01 asciilifeform well:
10:01 asciilifeform cut resulting in smallest walletron: wallet only stores privkeys and signs strings with'em.
10:01 asciilifeform all payload crafting happens elsewhere.
10:01 mircea_popescu that's one.
10:02 * mircea_popescu is contemplating writing an article of these, with pros and cons etc.
10:02 asciilifeform next after this, would be phf's variant. wallet also knows how to swallow blocks and craft a tx for itself to sign.
10:02 mircea_popescu which block ? you mean any ?
10:02 asciilifeform blocks, sequentially, so as to maintain a picture of what is available to spend.
10:03 mircea_popescu so this is wallet+node combo.
10:03 asciilifeform (hence why i brought up the miner shenanigans, it is not possible, sadly, to operate a wallet entirely 'blind')
10:03 mircea_popescu the thing i proposed would fall in between, so this'd be three.
10:03 mircea_popescu was there a fourth ?
10:04 asciilifeform fourth is what we have now..
10:04 mircea_popescu mkay, i guess ima go write.
10:04 asciilifeform also include the possible cut between mempool and 'blockpool'
10:05 asciilifeform which imho really ought to be made, those are quite separable concerns.
10:06 asciilifeform (this type of cut is a very necessary thing, imho, per 'specificity of diddling', nothing beats the ability to mix&match parts, run queries in parallel on redundant subsystems on heterogeneous iron, etc)
10:06 mircea_popescu yes, that's a settled thing and i see no need to drag it into this other discussion and muddy it up.
10:06 asciilifeform aite.
~ 20 minutes ~
10:26 asciilifeform tangentially relatedly, did prb ever get around to ordering mempool tx by fee ?
10:27 asciilifeform because if not, we have here a ready hammer for flattening current crop of miners
10:28 asciilifeform (give the new miners access to profitable, fee-ordered tx pool, the old ones get 0)
10:28 mircea_popescu nope.
10:32 mircea_popescu asciilifeform got loglink towhere we discussed wallet and how it should be a fucking text file ?
10:34 phf sexps, sexps everywhere
10:35 mircea_popescu phf aha. point being it was to be human readable.
10:35 mircea_popescu for some reason i can't find it though i clearly recall ranting on it.
10:40 mircea_popescu frustrating.
10:45 thestringpuller as of current you have to dump block on TRB in order to manually grep for a tx-hash to use as an Input to construct a raw transaction
10:50 * asciilifeform tried, failed, to turn up the thread.
10:53 mircea_popescu oh it was anarticle! damn!
10:53 mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/2016/the-ideal-bitcoin-wallet/
10:53 asciilifeform yes!
10:53 asciilifeform it.
10:54 mircea_popescu that was a horrible 15 minutes though. i was about to break the kbd
10:59 thestringpuller i'm i really the only one with that article saved :P
10:59 thestringpuller its in T-Bot for christ-sake
11:00 thestringpuller phf: you don't have to inject blocks into your signing node. you don't even need a node to sign iirc? just raw transaction.
11:08 asciilifeform thestringpuller: see thread. you still gotta craft the tx somewhere.
11:08 asciilifeform based on some picture of the blockchain.
11:09 thestringpuller asciilifeform: explain how you need blockchain to sign tx?
11:09 asciilifeform you don't!
11:09 thestringpuller :D
11:09 asciilifeform you can sign tx with a z80.
11:09 asciilifeform but where do you get the tx to sign.
11:09 phf thestringpuller: you need blockchain to ~craft~ tx though
11:10 phf you know, inputs
11:10 thestringpuller yes. so I dont see why can't craft the tx first then move it physically to signing device
11:10 phf you could, but ~i~ don't like that solution because then you're signing blind.
11:10 asciilifeform thestringpuller: at least 2 people here already do some variant of this.
11:11 asciilifeform but it leaves open the question of where and how to craft the tx.
11:11 mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-cut-the-wallet/ <
11:11 asciilifeform and as phf points out, it leaves you open to attack where the craftmachine is pwned and gives you a wallet-emptier to happily carry to the bunker and sign..
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11:11 phf you could probably have one black two red machines, wire node, tx crafting node, and a signing machine
11:11 shinohai ^
11:11 mircea_popescu funny, this is all in there :D
11:12 * asciilifeform reads
11:17 thestringpuller asciilifeform: unless tx you craft is gargantuan, I don't see how you couldn't do a partial audit of the non-signed tx that is spit out. in this context it would be best to check against multiple known TRB nodes the tx hashes are valid
11:17 mircea_popescu you could even regexp it.
11:18 asciilifeform thestringpuller: how do you propose to 'check against multiple trb nodes' on an airgapped signing box ?
11:20 thestringpuller 1) why would you not check raw unsigned tx before even contemplating signing the thing if you suspect comprimisation?
11:20 mircea_popescu ...
11:21 thestringpuller what pieces are there to check other than the inputs and the usigned outputs?
11:21 mircea_popescu check against what.
11:22 thestringpuller http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-02#1561981 << against whether or not the output is to "wallet emptying address". you'd know if output pubkey is differ than one you put in?
11:22 a111 Logged on 2016-11-02 15:11 asciilifeform: and as phf points out, it leaves you open to attack where the craftmachine is pwned and gives you a wallet-emptier to happily carry to the bunker and sign..
11:22 thestringpuller or am I misunderstanding the attack?
11:23 mircea_popescu you might be misunderstanding computers. if you sign a tx on the basis of "it's what my node told me to sign", then the node's in charge not you.
11:24 thestringpuller i guess i still don't grok
11:24 mircea_popescu there's a very fundamental difference between bare life, which evolves in between orders of behaviour relayed by computers ("now it's time to wake up! now click here!") and humanity, which uses computers strictly to answer questions.
11:24 mircea_popescu and what you're proposing to do isn't having the computer answer a question ; but it's having the computer tell you what to do.
11:25 thestringpuller if my node is compromised and nosuchlabs.com:8333 isn't
11:25 thestringpuller woudn't I get two different answers?
11:26 asciilifeform thestringpuller: with what would you be speaking to nosuchlabs box ? with wire in teeth ?
11:27 thestringpuller from other internet connected box (airgapped machine isn't even in picture yet cuz tx is not ready for signature)
11:27 asciilifeform let's take 'pessimal' case, where overflow or whatever is found such that all satoshi-derived nodes 'chain-react' and can be manipulated arbitrarily by the enemy.
11:27 asciilifeform i argue that a properly-designed wallet will not leak coins even then.
11:28 asciilifeform any coins.
11:28 deedbot http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-cut-the-wallet/ << Trilema - How to cut the wallet ?
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11:28 mircea_popescu this is a fundamental requirement yes.
11:29 thestringpuller then how would you construct reliable tx to begin without saving a record of all your UTXO's
11:29 thestringpuller in this case you can't trust the UTXO set of any node
11:30 mircea_popescu thestringpuller go read teh article so that next i look for it you can say you had it saved a minute after i found it eh!
11:30 thestringpuller mircea_popescu: it's already bookmarked and saved. inb4deedbot
11:31 mircea_popescu yes but the idea is to also read them lol.
11:32 thestringpuller I have...i'll just write something up based on Ken Sheriff's stuff and then see if I can grok alf-ie
11:32 asciilifeform incidentally, a more general observation re 'serial diodes', is that, quite like 'archive.is' and similar, they are a valuable detector of folks attempting to monkey with history.
11:32 asciilifeform if a node behind a diode, and an otherwise-identical one outside of the diode, diverge in any respect whatsoever...
11:32 mircea_popescu aha.
11:32 mircea_popescu useful item to have.
11:33 asciilifeform after slicing apart mempool-node from blockchain-node, building 'dioded node' becomes trivial exercise.
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11:33 asciilifeform (it dun care via what to 'eatblock', can be rs232)
11:33 asciilifeform incidentally you can make this out of CURRENT trb simply by putting it on a box without a nic
11:34 asciilifeform and letting it 'eatblock' via shell script.
11:34 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/h0qlr/?raw=true
11:34 asciilifeform trb absolutely gives no fuck if it cannot find the network.
11:34 thestringpuller trb the bsd of bitcoin
11:34 asciilifeform (clock will, however, drift)
11:37 asciilifeform in other noose, j. mcafee opens a mining pool for usg. (probably in exchange for non-prosecution for pyramidal flimflammery and/or non-extradition to the orc shithole of his past decade)
11:37 mircea_popescu oh he's in the us now ?
11:37 asciilifeform he's been there for some years
11:38 asciilifeform at least 3.
11:39 mircea_popescu i'm very vaguely following the whole raft of wanna-be leading ladies & other zsa zsa gabors. i recall some pics with him and a model on a boat ; about on par with whatever bs comes out of that meathead who sold out to yahoo, then lost money on every single deal hence and imagines this makes him an entrepreneur
11:39 mircea_popescu a sort of redneck branson, wtf is his name
11:39 asciilifeform his principal value to his new owner is his 'tor cred' or whatever one might call it.
11:39 asciilifeform a reputation for '133337 d00d'ness among the types of folx who bite that particular variety of hook.
11:39 mircea_popescu lol right. the sort of idiot who imagines tor is a thing, aka 20something potheads.
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11:40 asciilifeform aha. he is kept around as a tame priest specifically for use on them.
11:41 asciilifeform (the entire racket has 0 to do with defense of the crown in the traditional kgb sense, but rather with 'terrorist creation' , a la the proverbial death ray case.)
11:41 mircea_popescu ah mark cuban, there we go!
11:41 asciilifeform afaik mcafee long ago lost ~all of his money. hence operating in esr mode now.
11:41 asciilifeform the money - gone, the expensive tastes - remain.
11:42 mircea_popescu like all of them. there's really a long list of these government "entrepreneurs" in all socialisms
11:42 mircea_popescu if they spoke russian they'd be called oligarchs, but as it is...
11:42 mircea_popescu "let's pretend the word is businessman"
11:42 asciilifeform these folks are quite ideal from pov of new owners.
11:42 Framedragger http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-02#1562035 << this reminds me!
11:42 a111 Logged on 2016-11-02 15:39 mircea_popescu: lol right. the sort of idiot who imagines tor is a thing, aka 20something potheads.
11:42 asciilifeform like the archetypical dope-addicted whore.
11:42 Framedragger http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-21#1557460 << 25 - close enough
11:42 a111 Logged on 2016-10-21 00:01 mircea_popescu: Framedragger what are you, like 26 ?
11:42 mircea_popescu Framedragger lol win.
11:42 mircea_popescu asciilifeform btw, wanna bet cuban is sitting somewhere thinking trump really proves he could be president in a decade ?
11:43 mircea_popescu evidently using the same plastic surgeon kerry-heintz uses, so there is that going for him!
11:43 trinque hell he does reality tv iirc
11:43 trinque he's on the fast track
11:43 mircea_popescu aye!
11:46 mircea_popescu the cuban wiki entry is fucking hysterical. lengthy discussion of the shitty jobs the dork did in college. how come none of these go "and then he took rhetorics with elena dragos and was the only one to get a b in any of her classes that decade"
11:47 shinohai http://archive.is/KWUcD <<< Garzik and 2 women appointed to Linux Foundation board? It has went full Bitcoin Phoundation
11:47 mircea_popescu "during college he had various business ventures, including a bar, disco lessons, and a chain letter."
11:48 mircea_popescu fucking endless pile of lulz this guy
11:49 mircea_popescu bitnami (cloud), redhat bitcoin agent, advocate.
11:49 mircea_popescu sounds about right.
11:49 asciilifeform shinohai: it started life as 'full phoundation'
11:49 asciilifeform had 0 ever to do with linux.
11:49 shinohai well duh
11:49 asciilifeform its continued existence is the greatest afaik known shame of torvalds.
11:50 asciilifeform he oughta have yanked its trademark use permission immediately.
11:50 mircea_popescu who knows what he's doing there.
11:50 asciilifeform but, as i gather, decided that it would pointlessly hasten his dekulakization, or some such.
11:50 mircea_popescu general in teh field gets to use his assets as he pleases.
11:51 asciilifeform general's been in 'strategic' retreat for so long that his arse is wet in pacific ocean.
11:52 asciilifeform (incidentally, everybody in kindergarten makes fun of the italian tanks with 4 reverse gears, but for some reason nobody discusses american ejection seat developed for $maxint, but never deployed, in vietnam, with its own built-in little airplane wings, so as to skedaddle out of enemy lines when escaping!)
11:52 mircea_popescu lol
11:53 mircea_popescu back to the font of lulz, the official story is that clinton is losing because "kgb controls the fbi and there's badly behaved men!"
11:54 asciilifeform ( incidentally, does mircea_popescu know what is https://archive.is/71Wfw ? there are hilarious stories connected with it )
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11:54 mircea_popescu ejection tester thing ?
11:55 asciilifeform it was (they were abolished in late '90s after the chair ~flew~ once) an ejection ~trainer~
11:55 asciilifeform you sit in a mockup cockpit and sergeant lights a firework under your arse
11:55 asciilifeform chair jumps up 8 or so metres.
11:55 mircea_popescu heh
11:55 asciilifeform story goes, that in at least two academies where these existed, they ended up used as first-class auto-abortuators
11:56 asciilifeform for gurlz from almost whole country, who came by word of mouth, and carrying bottles of bribe
11:58 mircea_popescu hm
11:59 asciilifeform http://aircraft-museum.ucoz.ru/index/nktl_29_39/0-77 << better photo.
11:59 mircea_popescu placenta abrupta is a) painful b) an emergency and c) really not the best way to go.
11:59 mircea_popescu i rate this "urban legend"
11:59 asciilifeform works ok in 1st trimester iirc.
12:00 asciilifeform the way it even came out publicly was a case where idiot chick with 3rd trimester jumped on.
12:00 mircea_popescu rivanol via foley works even better. safer. longer. etcetera
12:00 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: why 'diy' methods remained popular, and remain today, is own interesting thread
12:00 mircea_popescu i dunno why this wouldn't count as dyi.
12:01 asciilifeform because needs exotic pharma ?
12:01 asciilifeform i suppose if yer an organiker, it is diy.
12:01 mircea_popescu it does ?
12:02 asciilifeform 'diy' typically refers to things an ordinary cowsie can make by itself from supplies from local shop and/or own kitchen..
12:02 mircea_popescu you can buy it from ~any chem supplier
12:03 asciilifeform go an' try, buy anything whatsoever from chem supplier in usa (as cowsie)
12:03 mircea_popescu anyway. if they can make meth they can make ethacridine.
12:05 asciilifeform perhaps PeterL can comment on the 'folk synthesis'.
12:06 mircea_popescu anyway. sigma aldrich sells it for $952.90/100grams, which is indeed laughable.
12:07 asciilifeform https://www.amazon.com/RIVANOL-ethacridine-lactate-cutaneous-solution/dp/B00OXWM3U6 << l0l!
12:07 mircea_popescu iirc you want 0.5%
12:08 asciilifeform vacuum distill ?
12:08 mircea_popescu no i mean, 0.5% concentrated. 100grams 99% enough to make 4 gallons of the stuff.
12:10 mircea_popescu ahhh the libertard butthurt pouring out of the election coverage is so delicious.
12:11 mircea_popescu "With Nate Silver putting Trump on a 28.8 per cent chance of victory, it’s almost unbelievable that the race could be so close, given the consequences. A Russian puppet candidate with shady business affairs who hasn’t disclosed his tax returns, Trump has spent his campaign alienating minorities, horrifying women, offending religious and military voters, and having his career of awful business behaviour paraded in public.
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12:11 mircea_popescu That he has been able to surf these scandals regularly as little more than free media opportunities shows that American democracy is in serious need of rehabilitation." << in my view, this settles an ancient point of contention curtis yarvin never manned up to, re "the cathedral" or generally how pervasive, or "in power" the idiots are.
12:12 mircea_popescu together with the bitcoin and the urbit dispute respectively, this puts him 0 for 3.
12:12 mircea_popescu can i be excused if i consider the matter forever put to rest, and deem nothing he ever said of any import or conceivable consequence whatsoever ?
12:13 asciilifeform where was this
12:13 mircea_popescu one "rupery myers" for the telegraph
12:23 mircea_popescu anyway, it's directly evident the most rabid of libertards realised clinton ain't got it ; and are in their grief dealing mode. pronouncements that "the election is rigged" (phrased, of course, as "this was an unedifying year" blabla), assurances that "whoever wins will be a single term president" as if that fixes anything ; even a pretense that putin will take advantage of trump. specifically. as if a) it isn't in the nature
12:23 mircea_popescu of things for the stronger to take advantage of the obese shithead and b) anyone could get more buttraped by putin, or the world generally, than obama already has.
~ 22 minutes ~
12:46 PeterL If I were a woman, I don't think I would trust the purity of something made in somebodies garage to not have dangerous impurities
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12:46 PeterL but yes, not horribly complicated molecule
12:47 asciilifeform PeterL: dope world, of both sexes, seems to care not a whit whether garage or not.
12:47 asciilifeform and q is not even whether complicated, but whether feasible from commonplace materials.
12:47 PeterL I guess if you are looking for a DIY abortion, impurities would be low on your scale of things to worry about
12:47 asciilifeform and using commonplace equipment, a la meth.
12:48 PeterL depends on if there is an easy starting material, I'm still reading up on it
12:54 phf you ever seen that dmt guide
12:55 asciilifeform phf: there is enough deadtree-era 'underground' pseudoscientific literature on 'dope cooking' to fill book case. most of it of dubious quality, approaching 'anarchist's cookbook', rather than what normal people think of as chemistry
12:55 phf right
12:55 asciilifeform but it is not worthless, school book does not discuss how to refine postindustrial rubbish from shops, utilize junkyard metal for the synthesis pots, etc.
12:56 asciilifeform the 'underground' crapola - does.
12:56 phf hmm, pretty sure the image is explicitly filtered out by google now :o
12:56 asciilifeform for fucks sake, what isn't filtered
12:57 jurov qntrola distributed
12:57 phf used to be one of the first image hits for "dmt synthesis", a screenshot of a chanboard poast of making dmta "out of household objects"
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12:57 asciilifeform but this is good time to note that postindustrial junkyard wars chemistry, as every other craft, differs substantially from the 'you can get any starting material you like by drawing it on paper' schoolbook chem.
12:59 phf hehe, trying to find it now though i get some really nice results e.g. http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/pc/dmt2.jpg
12:59 shinohai !~google Walter White's blue meth recipe
12:59 jhvh1 shinohai: A Comprehensive Guide to Cooking Meth on 'Breaking Bad' | VICE ...: <http://www.vice.com/read/a-comprehensive-guide-to-cooking-meth-on-breaking-bad>; Breaking Bad Fact vs Fiction: Walter White's Secret Formula: <http://www.popularmechanics.com/culture/tv/a9386/breaking-bad-fact-vs-fiction-walter-whites-secret-formula-15826137/>; Blue Sky | Breaking Bad Wiki | Fandom powered by Wikia: (1 more message)
13:04 shinohai Also, ty jurov
13:04 asciilifeform PeterL et al : did we ever do the brute-force synthesis thread ?
13:04 PeterL perhaps, what are we synthesizing?
13:04 phf yes we did
13:04 asciilifeform phf: can haz link ?
13:08 phf failing to find it so far, i think it's the one where we talked about looking through dirt for useful synths and how nobody is doing it (but when they do they get mad gains)
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13:08 asciilifeform nono this is different one
13:09 asciilifeform let's illustrate :
13:09 asciilifeform recall how to make nitric acid from air & water ?
13:09 asciilifeform (you could do it simply with what is in your room where you sit right now)
13:10 phf no, but i suppose electricity is involved
13:10 asciilifeform aha.
13:10 asciilifeform same as in thunderstorm.
13:10 asciilifeform put an arc through the raw materials, if there is any thermodynamically-plausible path to the end product, you will find some in the tube.
13:11 asciilifeform it is not an ~economical~ way to make (almost) anything.
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13:11 asciilifeform but illustrative.
13:11 asciilifeform what if you ~do not care~ how much electric arc you use ? because mains current is cheap and fungible.
13:11 asciilifeform sorta like how makers of mining asic, to a certain point, do not care about error rate
13:12 phf right
13:12 PeterL not a very selective way of doing things though
13:13 asciilifeform well the selection would have to happen on the purification end.
13:14 asciilifeform where one might conceivably employ another riotously -ev but simple crackpottery, laser separator
13:14 asciilifeform think 'ir spectrometer' but with motion.
13:14 PeterL blast it and see what you get out kinda thing?
13:14 phf wait, i'm missing the punchline. i guess brute force here means, that you don't have an optimal process, but rather exploit given environment to achieve objective no matter what?
13:14 asciilifeform phf: correct.
13:14 PeterL what would be the purpose of this?
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13:15 asciilifeform PeterL: very limited applications
13:15 asciilifeform largely involving circumventing chemical bans.
13:15 asciilifeform (on whatever you need - abortifacent, performance dope, poison, antidote, antibiotic, etc)
13:16 asciilifeform (note what is not on the list - it is doubtful that you can make a usable explosive this way. thought! you can make nitric acid, even now, using it. and from that, it is a day's work to dynamite or whatever.)
13:17 PeterL it would still be much easier to generate a synthetic pathway from what is available
13:17 asciilifeform it is a gedankenexperiment, and likely not justified for almost any current scenario.
13:17 asciilifeform but more useful as 'fleet in being'
13:17 PeterL have you ever done separations of organics trying to get a very low percentage product into something usable?
13:17 asciilifeform PeterL: problem is that your solution is not a Final Solution
13:18 asciilifeform in that the 'cat and mouse' game continues, you come up with path, and usg bans formerly commonplace household crud, etc.
13:18 asciilifeform a final solution - ends this process.
13:18 PeterL until you go all the way back to common starting materials, then it is final solution
13:18 asciilifeform permanently.
13:19 asciilifeform PeterL: you would be surprised at what commonplace thing can be abolished by great inca. i was astonished, after moving to usa, that you cannot buy potassium permanganate in drug store here.
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13:19 asciilifeform because oh noez.
13:21 PeterL so we need a sort of "frozen" archive of "how to make X, which you need to make Y", sort of like how trb has frozen deps
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13:22 asciilifeform PeterL: as you well know, the actual body of knowledge that is needed, has never really been written down, because it is at least partly a 'seat of the pants' craft, like flying jets
13:22 asciilifeform and afaik nobody has seriously considered attempting to write it.
13:22 PeterL yes, I have thought about this
13:23 PeterL you end up needing something like wikipedia to hold it all
13:23 asciilifeform lolwut
13:23 asciilifeform how the fuck do you write down ~hand skills~
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13:24 PeterL I mean, not specifically wikipedia, just there are a lot of topics that each connect to one another
13:24 asciilifeform and the feedstock problem is not escapable in postindustrial world. e.g., one can make nitric acid from, say, copper sulfate, saltpetre, and water. but where in the forest do i dig up copper sulfate ?
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13:24 PeterL write down skills with words, how else? arn't we literate people?
13:25 PeterL have article in megabook describing geology and identification of minerals
13:25 asciilifeform PeterL: would you fly as passenger in a mig that i offer you a ride in after reading 'how to mig' b0000k by, say, mthreat ?
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13:26 PeterL I assume that postapocalypse world you start by building small plane, learn to fly that, before moving onto mig
13:27 asciilifeform point here is that - sadly - not everything is susceptible to the written-word treatment.
13:39 asciilifeform PeterL: recall the 'copper caves' thread ? identification of minerals 'in the wild' was useful skill in 1700s.
13:39 asciilifeform today - not so much.
13:40 asciilifeform minerals live in 1) the shops, while supplies last and 2) in junkyard.
13:41 PeterL so have article on identifying minerals in junkyard?
13:41 asciilifeform there is some of this.
13:42 asciilifeform i once encountered an entire monograph on the drilling, rifling, and tempering of barrels made specifically from old truck axles.
13:42 asciilifeform (they, or so it was claimed, are perfect alloy for the purpose)
13:43 PeterL I suspect this would depend on the year of the truck?
13:43 asciilifeform almost entire 20th c.
13:44 * PeterL is not metalurgist, does not know how much variation goes into these things
13:44 asciilifeform point is not 'top metallurgy', but that the axle beats any kind of iron you can smelt in your cellar.
13:45 * asciilifeform is of the - admittedly armchair - notion that 'backyard artillerists' oughta focus on rockets, lower pressure, better... 'bang for buck'
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13:45 ben_vulpes no this is an excellent idea
13:46 ben_vulpes as evidenced by the usg-blessed rocketry associations insistent whine that rockets may only go up.
13:46 asciilifeform anyone with a drill press, for instance, can make 'gyrojet'-style projectile
13:46 asciilifeform where the jets were simply angularly-drilled openings.
13:46 PeterL gyrojet is so futuristic weapon, shame it didn't make the cut
13:47 asciilifeform PeterL: it compared poorly with ordinary luger.
13:47 * ben_vulpes rather fond of simple barrages over gyrojet projectiles
13:47 asciilifeform but it is a ~perfect 'cellar' weapon
13:47 asciilifeform needs 0 advanced metallurgy.
13:47 asciilifeform nor rifled barrels.
13:47 PeterL should have made round slightly bigger, allow carrying explosive to target
13:47 asciilifeform and can be of any calibre you like, with 0 recoil.
13:48 ben_vulpes PeterL: what, kinetics not enough?
13:48 ben_vulpes trade the explosive for a bit of mass and a bit more propellant.
13:48 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: some applications call for thermite.
13:48 PeterL IIRC, they were slightly too big and fell under the "dangerous weapons" regulations anyway, should have gone all the way to mini-rpg
13:49 asciilifeform 'may as well hang for a sheep as for a lamb' aha.
13:49 ben_vulpes the 'g' of grenade is a shameful waste of mass budget imho.
13:49 ben_vulpes er
13:49 ben_vulpes 'g' of rpg
13:49 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: in atmosphere, 'v' only gets you so far.
13:49 asciilifeform as mega-rocketeer, you oughta know that
13:49 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: what application for thermite, armor?
13:49 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: antimateriel in general.
13:50 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: as systems engineer, charges are complex, and 'simple' 'v' that 'doesn't get me that far' gets me pretty far.
13:50 ben_vulpes numbers, the rest.
13:51 PeterL ben_vulpes wants a 'rpp'? rocket-propelled projectile?
13:52 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-17#1556132 << see thread
13:52 a111 Logged on 2016-10-17 05:10 mircea_popescu: no, you can't do that, because air friction.
13:52 asciilifeform drag goes up nonlinearly with v.
13:52 asciilifeform which is why rifle bullets are not the size of grains of rice
13:53 asciilifeform (it is possible to make such a thing)
13:53 thestringpuller this is exactly why guys in suits show up to your front door if you launch a multistage "model rocket" from your back yard
13:54 asciilifeform launch anything visible from nearest airport in usa, and have problems.
13:55 asciilifeform Great Inca owns, in case anyone missed the memo, not only land, sea, but air.
13:55 thestringpuller luckily you don't have to go through great lengths to bribe local county airport in bumfuck no where
13:56 thestringpuller which ironically in th elocale legend a farmer launched a two stage rocket into the sea from here
13:56 asciilifeform if you're 'in nowhere' just launch from the woods, neh?
13:56 ben_vulpes nobody shows up at any doors, sheesh
↖ ↖
13:57 asciilifeform incidentally this possibility is a perennial thorn in the side of usg, and they keep coming up with crackpot mega-surveillance schemes against it, most recently the ill-fated $2B balloon
13:57 asciilifeform (which was to photograph ~entire east coast of usa)
13:57 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: 'nobody' shows up at any door -- until they do.
13:58 asciilifeform a la 'silk road' idiots etc.
13:58 thestringpuller well silk road idiots didn't follow the book of jeezy
13:59 thestringpuller i.e. "You're the guy who wasn't good enough to sling dope."
13:59 asciilifeform and when you helpfully light the way for gasenwagen with gigantic flare above your door..
13:59 thestringpuller just cause you can buy weight from the comfort of your mom's basement does not mean you have capacity to sling said dope on street.
14:01 thestringpuller asciilifeform: re: woods << wasn't this the premise of October Sky (the rocket boys?!?) from West VA back in the 50's?
14:02 asciilifeform 'Homer Hickam stated that "Universal Studios marketing people got involved and they just had to change the title because, according to their research, women over thirty would never see a movie titled Rocket Boys"...' << l0l!!
14:03 PeterL I've never made a multi-stage rocket, but me and my kids made a rocket out of a soda bottle and powered it with isopropanol, that was pretty fun
~ 1 hours 12 minutes ~
15:15 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-02#1562113 << that's silly. penis is already dangerous impurity enough.
15:15 a111 Logged on 2016-11-02 16:46 PeterL: If I were a woman, I don't think I would trust the purity of something made in somebodies garage to not have dangerous impurities
15:20 mircea_popescu (to be clear : 14F catheter is inserted in the lus (lower uterine segment). the baloon is then inflated to ~5ml, and under light traction 100ml of 0.15% solutin in introduced as drip over 10 minutes. no antibiotics needed, abortion occurs within hours.)
15:27 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-02#1562138 << that was http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=Teixobactin
15:27 a111 Logged on 2016-11-02 17:08 phf: failing to find it so far, i think it's the one where we talked about looking through dirt for useful synths and how nobody is doing it (but when they do they get mad gains)
15:27 trinque asciilifeform: http://news.softpedia.com/news/russian-president-vladimir-putin-wants-microsoft-out-of-the-country-509902.shtml << hey alf, pootie tang heard you.
15:29 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-02#1562147 << it is, or at least was, the explanation of "how life begun". nevertheless, this method fails amply for organic compounds : fill a tube with a all the organic compounds you can think dilute in the same solvent, run electrictity through it, congrats you have some lightly chlorinated toilet water.
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15:29 a111 Logged on 2016-11-02 17:11 asciilifeform: it is not an ~economical~ way to make (almost) anything.
15:31 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-02#1562159 << he was born in soviet russia. there isn't a purpose, just, electricity is all he's got besides "the power of the soviets", and while neither can fill a hand before pissing in it would, nevertheless at least electricity DOES SOMETHING.
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15:31 a111 Logged on 2016-11-02 17:14 PeterL: what would be the purpose of this?
15:33 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-02#1562173 << i wanted to show girls the thing (it's fucking pretty, innit ?) these idiots don't even know what it IS. i mean, pharmacists. they go to medical school here. NO FUCKING IDEA!
15:33 a111 Logged on 2016-11-02 17:19 asciilifeform: PeterL: you would be surprised at what commonplace thing can be abolished by great inca. i was astonished, after moving to usa, that you cannot buy potassium permanganate in drug store here.
15:33 mircea_popescu fucking savagery. and it probably started "for your own good", as these things always go.
15:34 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-02#1562175 << this is not even half a bad idea. bonus : works natively on v lol.
15:34 a111 Logged on 2016-11-02 17:21 PeterL: so we need a sort of "frozen" archive of "how to make X, which you need to make Y", sort of like how trb has frozen deps
15:35 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-02#1562181 << same way you teach white chicks to twerk and black chicks to handjob.
15:35 a111 Logged on 2016-11-02 17:23 asciilifeform: how the fuck do you write down ~hand skills~
15:37 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-02#1562183 << afaik copper sulphate is one of the naturally occuring presentations. it comesa as mix of carbonate, phosphate and some oxides.
15:37 a111 Logged on 2016-11-02 17:24 asciilifeform: and the feedstock problem is not escapable in postindustrial world. e.g., one can make nitric acid from, say, copper sulfate, saltpetre, and water. but where in the forest do i dig up copper sulfate ?
15:38 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-02#1562257 << did i not put in caveat, 'if there is any thermodynamically-plausible path to the end product' !
15:38 a111 Logged on 2016-11-02 19:29 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-02#1562147 << it is, or at least was, the explanation of "how life begun". nevertheless, this method fails amply for organic compounds : fill a tube with a all the organic compounds you can think dilute in the same solvent, run electrictity through it, congrats you have some lightly chlorinated toilet water.
15:39 mircea_popescu yes but most organics are not "thermodynamically plausible" to use your terminology, making it misguiding. put caveat "if it's not organic, or interesting (ie explosives)"
15:39 mircea_popescu then it's a good caveat.
15:39 asciilifeform and naively, it does resemble 'break rsa key with random bit guess'. but you would be surprised at what ends up where an arc has been.
15:39 asciilifeform even chiralane.
15:39 mircea_popescu sure.
15:39 mircea_popescu it's actually diagnosis for spark : looking for weird.
15:40 mircea_popescu (in some ind processes, the "was there a spark" is mn dollar question post disaster)
15:45 asciilifeform '“We don’t spy on anyone. We don’t work with any government to spy on others and we never would,” Dominic Carr, General Manager of Public Affairs at Microsoft, said.' << gold
15:45 mircea_popescu lol.
15:45 mircea_popescu remember jerry : it's not lying, if YOU believe it!
15:47 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-02#1562259 << betcha that one could budge the otherwise astronomically-unfavourable equilibria with modulated arc, or something else unavailable to ancestors.
15:47 a111 Logged on 2016-11-02 19:31 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-02#1562159 << he was born in soviet russia. there isn't a purpose, just, electricity is all he's got besides "the power of the soviets", and while neither can fill a hand before pissing in it would, nevertheless at least electricity DOES SOMETHING.
15:47 asciilifeform or not. but is certainly worth a shot.
15:47 mircea_popescu maybe.
15:48 mircea_popescu if you're gonna do that better off doing resonant cavity em
15:48 asciilifeform well yes
15:48 asciilifeform a la klystron.
15:48 asciilifeform have organic crapolade mechanically separate self by nmr spectra, or something similarly outrageous.
15:48 mircea_popescu in ~principle~ all chemistry as practiced now could be changed to phys-chem through the process of, put substance inside magical cavity, shoot the right beams at the right atoms.
15:48 mircea_popescu hence your laser suggestion in thread.
15:48 asciilifeform btw you can buy 1T+ permanent magnet aggregates now.
15:48 asciilifeform (and since '90s)
15:49 asciilifeform desktop nmr, sans cryogens.
15:49 mircea_popescu but this technology is 50 years away, idiots are too busy making "3d guns" out of the practical equivalent of a large plastic coathanger injector and other stencils.
15:49 mircea_popescu asciilifeform aha.
15:49 asciilifeform with the right hands it is 50 months, or 50 days away.
15:49 asciilifeform like ~anything.
15:49 mircea_popescu it's gonna be the "surprising nobody could have predicted what will those zany scientist kids think of next" of our old age.
15:50 mircea_popescu and we'll be all "oh, good thing you did the rape thing first then mkay. THAT was the emergency"
15:50 asciilifeform first we do the rape, then - the ape.
15:50 asciilifeform (in the somewhat cryptic words of ilkka k.)
15:53 asciilifeform re '3d gun' folk, it boggles my mind that they ignore 'gyrojet'
15:53 asciilifeform which theoretically lets you make the entire orchestra, gun, barrel, bullet, from soft aluminum.
15:53 mircea_popescu this entire "elective" driver for human activity is the pits.
15:53 mircea_popescu they'll only do what they can cluck about.
15:54 mircea_popescu human civilisation was built by very intelligent, special, sensitive doods DOING WHAT THEY WERE MOTHERFUCKING TOLD
15:54 PeterL at my previous employer there was an equipment showcase, bunch of vendors showing off new stuff, one guy brought a shoebox sized nmr, blew my mind a bit
15:54 mircea_popescu not by them polling their inside state at 5kHz
15:55 asciilifeform PeterL: didja pop the cover on it? what does one need to make it ?
15:56 PeterL didn't get to put my hands inside
15:56 asciilifeform PeterL: then what led you to believe that it works ?
15:56 asciilifeform and not a 'magic wand'.
15:57 PeterL seemed like it was limited in application, would be ok for some sorts of process management or something, completely useless for what I was doing
15:57 asciilifeform limited how ?
15:58 PeterL If I remember correctly, low resolution
15:58 PeterL basically it was like a 100 MHz, I only use 500 and up
16:00 PeterL it could work with a flow cell, which would be cool for monitoring a process, but the low resolution would make it very bad for identification work
~ 17 minutes ~
16:17 mircea_popescu you can technically use 7 or so to get 500
16:17 mircea_popescu seeing how even thz timers aren't expensive.
16:19 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: you need higher field strength for higher f.
16:19 asciilifeform for meaningful signal.
16:19 mircea_popescu guess there's also that.
16:19 asciilifeform hence the monster machines with liquid he etc.
16:20 mircea_popescu yeah. just, you know, the miniaturization itself is important.
16:20 mircea_popescu i mean "the miniaturization is important in itself", ie, even if obviously won't work to move large bodies, it's integral to the magical cavity.
16:21 asciilifeform the business end of nmr box was never large.
16:21 asciilifeform (there is variant where it is man-sized, it is sold as 'mri')
16:22 mircea_popescu aha
16:24 thestringpuller looking through my research there doesn't seem to be a conclusion to hardware RNG thread
16:24 asciilifeform thestringpuller: what kind of conclusion did you have in mind ?
16:24 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-02#1562186 << yes, actually. guy is a competent (if self-taught) engine engineer. in between him and the various trainers he had, he's the sane mind i've seen.
16:24 a111 Logged on 2016-11-02 17:25 asciilifeform: PeterL: would you fly as passenger in a mig that i offer you a ride in after reading 'how to mig' b0000k by, say, mthreat ?
16:25 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: trainers don't simply hand 'patient' a book..
16:25 mircea_popescu really ?
16:25 mircea_popescu would you want someone working on trb on the basis of having read the book or on the basis of having watched "the videos" ?
16:26 asciilifeform really, one studies in 2-seat machine, grunting out exercises
16:26 asciilifeform ~while~ reading book also, yes.
16:26 mircea_popescu there is a thin sliver of stuff your training is useful for ; but most accidents, including with planes, including with controlled flight into terrain, come from not having read the book.
16:27 asciilifeform this - yes
16:27 mircea_popescu note that the place where good training would have helped (concorde crashed into hotel ; smolensk lulz ; etc), the training though present didn't do anything, and nobody thought it proper to blame anyone for this.
16:27 asciilifeform i was thinking more of the basics that folks learn 'with spinal cord' in training.
16:27 thestringpuller asciilifeform: not conclusion, more "direction toward edible turd" vs "eat the mystery meat" re: << http://btcbase.org/log/2014-05-29#694660
16:27 a111 Logged on 2014-05-29 17:55 asciilifeform: i really can't fathom the purpose of buying a mystery meat hardware rng. if you're willing to eat mystery meat, why not use the vlsi turd found in current cpu?
16:28 thestringpuller i'd rather attempt at raising my own shitty veal rather than continuing to eat mystery meat until end of lie
16:28 thestringpuller life*
16:28 mircea_popescu asciilifeform name one such basic. "don't suck through your nose from reagent bottle" ?
16:28 hanbot http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20161102/#279 << incredible collection of idiot euphemisms on that page. "provides vertically integrated production", srsly?! also, attempted to make some preserves of it with archive.is, which is broken/dead/? atm, so here's another bitchlog on that ongoing fire....
16:28 scriba Logged on 2016-11-02: [15:46:51] <mircea_popescu> the cuban wiki entry is fucking hysterical. lengthy discussion of the shitty jobs the dork did in college. how come none of these go "and then he took rhetorics with elena dragos and was the only one to get a b in any of her classes that decade"
16:29 mircea_popescu hanbot pretty epic isn't he.
16:30 mircea_popescu https://archive.is/62PUQ << apparently it worked alright, supposing you hit it ~10 mins ago ?
↖
16:30 hanbot well in the same manner as'd be a museum of vinyl siding, sure.
16:30 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: how to properly separate layers, for instance. how to boil without 'bumping'. various things that sound braindamagedly simple but many folks fuck up somehow.
16:30 mircea_popescu all of these are temp skills.
16:30 hanbot oh hey, i made it but can't load it. huzzah.
16:31 mircea_popescu you don't handboil anymore ; there's magnetic stirrers specifically because of this skill being expensive. etc.
16:31 asciilifeform magnetic stirrer does not magic away the hand skill.
16:31 asciilifeform this is precisely the kind of notion which gets people into chemical mess.
16:31 mircea_popescu the way it works is, two chunks of hardware that have to be interfaced are briefly interfaced by biofilm, until a proper solution is put in place.
16:31 asciilifeform just like, incidentally, the notion that cnc magicked away machining skill.
16:32 asciilifeform in practice, none of this happened, it only happened in the imagination of folks who only see the results on paper.
16:32 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i suppose i missed all those steam pressure gauges in cars etc.
16:32 mircea_popescu that it doesn't happen all the time, or within a short enough interval doesn't change the fact that it's the one mode of industry.
16:33 mircea_popescu at some point oil was carried by barrel. then by trainload. then piped.
16:33 asciilifeform this is not to say that nothing is ever usefully automated. just that we aren't at the 'wish and it happens!!11' level for, e.g., organiking.
16:33 mircea_popescu surely not. yet.
16:33 asciilifeform as for airplanes, i recently read, for instance, an entertaining piece, 'stick and rudder', classic, by one w. langewiesche. but if you wanted to fly in an airplane, i would still recommend going with davout at the wheel, or mthreat, rather than asciilifeform .
16:34 mircea_popescu if they're there.
16:34 asciilifeform because there is such a thing as practical craft.
16:34 mircea_popescu when i first got laid i had nobody there to show me how it's done so i made do as best i could.
16:34 mircea_popescu woman helped, in fairness.
16:35 asciilifeform incidentally, wright airplane steered by bending wings, this is another item that could be reintroduced in small flying machines that keep popping up in threads here, 'because we now have computer', but afaik has not been.
16:36 mircea_popescu the problem is material quality. they'd cost ~1mn, which is not what people wanna pay for cessna. they wanna pay 100k, and they do.
16:36 asciilifeform it would only be a mega-win in plastic (yes) airplane.
16:37 asciilifeform wrights - had no plastic. they had wood, and wood flexes well, but glue does not.
16:37 mircea_popescu aha.
16:37 asciilifeform plastic 'cessna', 10k.
16:37 mircea_popescu "intelligent" plastic (ie, with electric bending cell infrastructure) would be pretty cool
16:37 asciilifeform steer hydraulicly, bend wings from inside.
16:37 mircea_popescu also just as expensive as discussed.
16:37 asciilifeform like a cock.
16:38 mircea_popescu o hey, iraqis are in mosul huh!
16:38 asciilifeform no intelligent anything. just cavernous hydraulic cock wings.
16:38 asciilifeform who was in mosul before ? eskimos ?
16:38 mircea_popescu isis.
16:38 asciilifeform aah
16:38 mircea_popescu since 2014
16:38 mircea_popescu aaand teh turks are getting restless.
16:38 asciilifeform changed hands for 1st time since then ??
16:39 mircea_popescu hasn't changed hands yet, but arguably the iraqis are edging into actual city.
16:43 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-02#1562351 << thing is under epic ddos or wat.
16:43 a111 Logged on 2016-11-02 20:30 mircea_popescu: https://archive.is/62PUQ << apparently it worked alright, supposing you hit it ~10 mins ago ?
16:43 asciilifeform i get a 'loading...' spinner, forever.
16:43 mircea_popescu must be
16:43 asciilifeform i have never even ~seen~ this spinner prior.
16:43 asciilifeform (did somebody walk away with the domain..?)
16:45 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-02#1562200 << i dunno there's any dispute re this, here. or outside.
16:45 a111 Logged on 2016-11-02 17:45 asciilifeform is of the - admittedly armchair - notion that 'backyard artillerists' oughta focus on rockets, lower pressure, better... 'bang for buck'
16:45 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: in usa.
16:45 asciilifeform american 'basement artillerists' almost inevitably fixate on small arms 'just like grandfather's'
16:46 mircea_popescu im sure zimbabweans from actual zimbabwe do even funnier shit
16:46 asciilifeform orcs tend to be practical folk. witness, e.g., palestine, even there - they understand rocket.
16:46 asciilifeform and that a handmade rocket is more accurate, makes bigger and cheaper hole, than trying out medieval musketry.
16:47 mircea_popescu aha
16:47 mircea_popescu not everyone's quite as castrated as "civilised" folk, you could say.
16:47 mircea_popescu "and what have you learned in the city, billy bob ?" "oh ma, i have learned how to fail before i even try!"
16:48 asciilifeform i'm not even convinced that it is about castration - the 'actiony' types are just as fixated, they would sincerely rather make a crappy aluminum musket that eventually kills himself and whoever stands next, than a perfectly serviceable rocket.
16:49 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-02#1562239 << people love the hope! hence okcupid.
16:49 a111 Logged on 2016-11-02 17:56 ben_vulpes: nobody shows up at any doors, sheesh
16:49 mircea_popescu asciilifeform how is that not castrated ?
16:49 mircea_popescu the difference between the placid capon and the overactive to mask impotence capon is not substantial.
16:49 thestringpuller people still use okcupid now that tindr exists?
16:50 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: willingness to depart from routine is orthogonal to virility.
16:50 mircea_popescu not orthogonal.
16:57 mircea_popescu and in other illustrative shapes, http://68.media.tumblr.com/144503737e83614fc6a604fad5072e71/tumblr_n9zc9frpX01sl0njeo1_1280.jpg
16:57 mircea_popescu "i want it to just fit"
16:58 thestringpuller grade a badonkadonk
17:07 shinohai !~ticker --market all
17:08 jhvh1 shinohai: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 727.44, vol: 4634.84882059 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 721.9, vol: 4557.80835 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 734.49, vol: 8993.49784423 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 739.0158, vol: 716127.11400000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 731.27, vol: 1419.68811149 | Volume-weighted last average: 738.766576406
~ 1 hours 10 minutes ~
18:18 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> who was in mosul before ? eskimos ? << Assyrians
18:19 BingoBoingo <thestringpuller> people still use okcupid now that tindr exists? << mp doesn't have a guide to beating tindr
18:23 mircea_popescu which one is tindr ? the gay app thing ?
18:25 thestringpuller my bad it's tinder. grindr is the gay app thing
18:25 thestringpuller but grindr is actually used more now for drug dealing iirc
18:25 BingoBoingo lol
18:26 mircea_popescu historically gayness was mostly used for drug dealing in the first place.
18:26 ben_vulpes what historic drugs are we talking about?
18:27 ben_vulpes opium?
18:27 mircea_popescu anything that gets you high, man
18:27 mircea_popescu + muscle relaxants
18:27 mircea_popescu + disco hair products.
18:27 ben_vulpes i guess the argument kinda falls apart on 'historic' grounds, 'gayness' not being much of a thing pre late 1800s
18:28 mircea_popescu of course it was.
18:28 ben_vulpes qua "men who only have sex with other men"?
18:28 mircea_popescu yes. take say rochester.
18:30 ben_vulpes and you'll say that my cursory research finding that he slept with a few ladies to be entirely wrong?
18:31 mircea_popescu well, the notion that gayness is incompatible with that IS very much a late 1800s thing.
18:31 * ben_vulpes points at the fifth line up
18:31 mircea_popescu would you say a woman that also fucks plastic isn't heterosexual ?
18:32 ben_vulpes no, i'd say that "historic drugs" fits quite nicely into the same time window as "gay = only fucks men"
18:32 mircea_popescu especially if you define "drugs" as "what the people who think gay = only fucks men would think drugs are"
18:32 ben_vulpes hence my question!
18:33 mircea_popescu well i didn't realise you were begging it!
18:33 mircea_popescu anyway. drugs pre industrialisation are ~= alcohol.
18:33 ben_vulpes yeah.
18:34 ben_vulpes and not even the high proof stuff at that.
18:34 mircea_popescu depends, they drank all sorts of swill. including jerez port absynth whatnot.
18:35 mircea_popescu basically, the whole medieval period lived on hobo wine. cheap, sweetened, etc. the exact thing, midnight thunder or w/e it's called.
18:36 ben_vulpes i was a few centuries off on stills.
18:36 mircea_popescu except in the north where wine dun grow the poor drank beer.
18:36 shinohai I always imagined they were drinking Night Train in The Name of the Rose.
18:37 mircea_popescu very likely correct. though some northern monasteries did brew beer.
18:37 mircea_popescu (note that medieval beer has no hops, as a result doesn't keep, it's a lot closer to braga than what passes for beer today)
18:38 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes cognac, ie the first distilled spirit, is about half a millenium old by now.
18:40 mircea_popescu !~google vital du four benefits armagnac
18:40 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: France vaunts '40 virtues' of Armagnac | The Independent: <http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/france-vaunts-40-virtues-of-armagnac-1891949.html>; Armagnac (brandy) - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armagnac_(brandy)>; The Virtues of Armagnac - Life At The Table: <https://lifeatthetable.com/the-virtues-of-armagnac/>
18:40 mircea_popescu heh k.
~ 21 minutes ~
19:02 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> basically, the whole medieval period lived on hobo wine. cheap, sweetened, etc. the exact thing, midnight thunder or w/e it's called. << Thunderbird, Night Train, Mad Dog, Wild Irish Rose, and Cisco. RIP Ripple.
19:02 mircea_popescu aha
19:03 BingoBoingo Mad Dog doesn't really count anymore since they "rebranded" with blig.
19:03 BingoBoingo *bling
19:05 BingoBoingo This was illustrated as the most fair thing. Elliot discovering Thunderbird and becoming a Chief. Given his excess of will and manner of drinking it was inevitable. http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2016/10/29/is-so-unfair-cycle-12-fairness-strikes/
19:05 BingoBoingo Just so long as a plot kept Elliot's will from making him an hero.
19:06 BingoBoingo Anyways Make Great, Great Again. A bunch of hillary supporters burned a black church and wrote "Vote Trump" on it to mobilize the black vote.
19:08 thestringpuller ^- hahahahaha Da scam keeps on scammin
~ 50 minutes ~
19:58 BingoBoingo Make Great Great Again: "You’re hardly irresponsible with your funds. You’re saving a decent sum of money and working on paying down debt. As for your company: It sounds like it won’t be a lifetime job. You can easily permit yourself the spending on your cat." << https://archive.is/thWwo
20:04 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: it's dead
20:05 BingoBoingo Where else from http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_bills/2016/11/ask_the_bills_i_m_still_in_debt_thanks_to_my_sickly_cat.html
20:07 asciilifeform colt health & life insurance corp.
20:08 * asciilifeform reads sticker under elbow: 'prohibited the machine start of no water' (followed by buncha hieroglyphs)
20:09 asciilifeform she cow pig had kittens!!
20:09 BingoBoingo lol
20:11 BingoBoingo Colt Property, But Mostly Casualty Inc.
20:11 asciilifeform colt retirement fund co.
20:12 asciilifeform the american way!111
20:18 mircea_popescu the reading of impossible without the garden.
20:30 * BingoBoingo glad satoshi called it the wallet and not the purse. Imagines "How to cut the purse strings" on Trilema.
20:31 mircea_popescu lol for srs
20:31 * BingoBoingo waits for inevitable Trilema of that title now.
20:34 mircea_popescu it's evitable.
20:34 hanbot ("it's evitable", however, probably isn't)
20:35 mircea_popescu screw you guise, i'm going to bed.
20:37 mod6 finally caught up :]
20:38 mircea_popescu welcome among the current, mod6 :D
20:38 mod6 aha, ty!
20:40 BingoBoingo it was evitable until mentioned.
20:44 mod6 !%e trb 29 F "Redesign Wallet" "The original Reference Implementation wallet needs a redesign. http://trilema.com/2016/the-ideal-bitcoin-wallet/ http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-cut-the-wallet/" 30
20:44 mircea_popescu pretty healthy pile of tickets in there.
20:45 mod6 Yeah, some of these could be a bit reviewed/reorg'd
20:45 mod6 !%p trb 29
20:45 tb0t Project: trb, ID: 29, Type: F, Subject: Redesign Wallet, Antecedents: 30, Notes: The original Reference Implementation wallet needs a redesign. http://trilema.com/2016/the-ideal-bitcoin-wallet/ http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-cut-the-wallet/
20:45 mircea_popescu teh 29 F is open for discussion anyway.
20:46 mod6 For sure. I do like how I can use the tickets to track discussions thus far though. Saved the foundation from needing the stenographer.
20:46 mircea_popescu pretty cool
20:54 mod6 yah, at least for now...
20:54 mod6 I like the idea of private projects too. Gotta dig into that maybe.
20:54 mod6 It's not a huge leap to get there anyway.
20:57 shinohai evening mod6 o7
20:59 mod6 hey shinohai o/
21:00 mod6 how goes?
21:01 shinohai Not bad here, on standby for the regrind and other things we discussed. Lots of thinking on the new trilema from today.
21:02 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all --currency rmb
21:02 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: BTCChina BTCRMB last: 5089.04, vol: 1045625.83120000 | Volume-weighted last average: 5089.04
21:02 mod6 shinohai: *nod* yeah lot to think about.
21:13 shinohai http://wjla.com/news/local/road-sign-hacked-to-say-crooked-hillary-is-a-expletive-vote-trump
~ 1 hours 34 minutes ~
22:47 deedbot http://www.contravex.com/2016/11/02/aga-refinery-party-danse-macabre/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - AGA Refinery Party: Danse Macabre
23:02 asciilifeform meanwhile, http://www.loper-os.org/pub/gears.jpg
↖
23:03 asciilifeform ^ no prizes for guessing how the cam was botched. but hey, learning exercise.
23:03 asciilifeform (and yes, the plank was of shitwood and warped from heat also)
23:04 ben_vulpes thin looking stuff
23:04 ben_vulpes /very/ pretty card, asciilifeform
23:05 asciilifeform lol
23:05 asciilifeform a very common su deck
23:05 asciilifeform (didja know, even ordinary playing cards are fuck-ugly in usa and brit world ??)
23:06 ben_vulpes old story mass produced blablabla
23:06 asciilifeform i have nfi why actually
23:06 ben_vulpes no taste to be had at any price?
23:07 ben_vulpes some of those teeth are very odd looking.
23:07 ben_vulpes is that from the warping?
23:07 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: overcooked
23:07 ben_vulpes hm
23:07 ben_vulpes ic
23:08 ben_vulpes and you're doing this with a laser why?
23:08 asciilifeform it was a helloworld!
23:08 ben_vulpes ok ok
23:08 ben_vulpes what /are/ you cutting with the laser?
23:08 asciilifeform this will be described later.
23:09 asciilifeform btw since ben_vulpes asked, what's the cheap way to make gear ?
23:09 ben_vulpes what kind of application?
23:09 asciilifeform because afaik laser is the easiest + cheapest, supposing you can live with material that it cuts
23:10 asciilifeform there are, sadly, not so many uses for wooden or plexiglass gears.
23:10 ben_vulpes well, no, and "depends"
23:10 asciilifeform but if you have gigantic laser..
23:10 ben_vulpes no you stop with that
23:10 trinque lol
23:11 ben_vulpes what application, asciilifeform
23:11 asciilifeform eh nm.
23:11 ben_vulpes perhaps giant wooden cog with mega reduction will serve asciilifeform's purposes!
23:11 ben_vulpes who is to know
23:12 asciilifeform ftr i am not making mechanical rsatron.
↖ ↖
23:12 asciilifeform yet.
23:12 ben_vulpes get a temperature controllable oven, start with soft steel and harden it per the kindergarten heat treatment tables
23:13 ben_vulpes if yer really strapped for cash, get a propane "poofer" and a laser thermometer.
23:14 ben_vulpes 's how we did the bearing races on the fin can.
23:14 asciilifeform strapped for fireproof work surface.
23:14 ben_vulpes it's called a fucking driveway!
23:14 asciilifeform i've none.
23:14 ben_vulpes wut
23:14 ben_vulpes heart of the empire
23:14 asciilifeform i shit thee not
23:14 ben_vulpes the place to which all roads lead
23:15 asciilifeform i 'parallel-park' on motherfucking city street, yes
↖
23:15 ben_vulpes seat of government from which eisenhower edicted that roads will be laid to all stoops
23:15 ben_vulpes and you nignogs don't have cement /driveways/?
23:15 asciilifeform fwiw, all the other houses on the street - do
23:15 asciilifeform (well, gravel, not cement)
23:15 ben_vulpes such imperium!
23:16 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-31#1560685
23:16 a111 Logged on 2016-10-31 17:27 asciilifeform: i always wondered if the very sad infrastructure in washington, a kind of frozen-in-time 1970s theme park, is at least partly on account of the expectation that anthill will be leveled 'any day'
23:16 asciilifeform i also pay 2-3x per square m. vs anyone else who lives here. because not-mortgaged.
23:16 asciilifeform this was in old thread, is not mega-newz.
23:16 ben_vulpes in any event, the controllable kiln/oven should be achievable.
23:17 asciilifeform not in a wooden shack, it isn't
23:17 ben_vulpes you don't even have a steel work table outside?!
23:17 asciilifeform nope
23:17 asciilifeform on what to put it, on earth that turns liquid when rains ?
23:17 asciilifeform (whole thing does..)
23:18 asciilifeform one time i bought a truckload of plinths, made a walking-path, it... sank.
↖
23:18 ben_vulpes hold on a goddamn second
23:18 ben_vulpes plinths are ~2ft tall
23:18 asciilifeform these were 2 in. tall.
23:18 ben_vulpes that is most definitely not a plinth.
23:18 asciilifeform 'twas what they had at the plinth shop, lel.
23:19 ben_vulpes i'd crucify the architect who tried to tell me that an ionian column could sit aesthetically o 2 inches of plinth.
23:19 ben_vulpes > plinth shop
23:19 asciilifeform no architects were harmed in the making of this production.
23:19 asciilifeform just an old miser and a bunch of shit masonry.
23:19 ben_vulpes "baliff? whack his architect."
23:20 ben_vulpes only tangentially relatedly, cheech and chong scrubbed the rape jokes from their classic albums.
↖
23:20 ben_vulpes shame.
23:25 asciilifeform ben_vulpes carries half tonne plinths with own hands ?
23:25 asciilifeform or owns crane ?
23:27 ben_vulpes no but i also don't call that which isn't a plinth a plinth
23:31 * ben_vulpes still having trouble with the gravel driveway thing
23:32 ben_vulpes water company showed up the other day to relocate our meter
23:32 ben_vulpes left a gravel patch for ~3 days
23:32 ben_vulpes came back and tarred the thing down level with the rest of the driveway
23:43 ben_vulpes https://code.visualstudio.com/updates#_17-rollback
23:44 ben_vulpes "The feature was so great that we started to overload the npmjs.org service."
23:44 asciilifeform l0l!!
23:44 asciilifeform also since when does ben_vulpes use vs..?
23:44 ben_vulpes since never!
23:45 asciilifeform lolk
23:45 ben_vulpes but let me tell you about how well xcode <latest> upgraded this swift 2 project to swift 3
23:45 ben_vulpes FUCKING POORLY
23:45 ben_vulpes "o i see you have a target, i'll just swizzle these files around and source-to-source transform all these other files"
23:45 ben_vulpes NEGLECTING COMPLETELY THE OTHER PROJECT TARGETS
23:46 ben_vulpes from other parts of the room: "i'm sure there's some highfalutin' CS reason why -- "
23:46 ben_vulpes "NO THERE IS NO REASON. IT IS PURE ARROGANCE AND DISREGARD FOR OUR BOXES."
23:46 ben_vulpes "our boxes?"
23:47 ben_vulpes "..."
23:47 asciilifeform i was recently using a proggy called inkscape. vector drawing thing. and recent update broke ~ALL plugins.
23:47 asciilifeform that ANYONE has written.
23:47 asciilifeform this is somehow acceptable on the author's planet..?
↖
23:47 ben_vulpes well, using anything other than illustrator for vector work is very stupid for precisely this reason.
23:48 asciilifeform lolwut
23:49 ben_vulpes unrelatedly, el pequeno took his first steps at his one-year birthday/halloween party while i was on the back porch smoking cigarettes
23:49 trinque aw shit
23:50 trinque serious adventure time now, out the window, across the yard
23:50 ben_vulpes "eh, i'll believe it when i see it ten times."
23:50 ben_vulpes one day later...
23:51 ben_vulpes trinque: miniature ice-mobiles, bicycles, skateboards and other mother-terrorizing devices may be delivered to <ADDRESS>
23:52 trinque loller
23:53 ben_vulpes naw, the girl is to be commended for her tolerance of and adaptation to all sorts of baby-genic father-driven torture
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