#trilema | 2016-03-14

Logged on 13-03-2016 21:13:18; ascii_field: ben_vulpes: folks have destroyed far more precious machines than bbet by elbowing 'wrong button'

01:57

'not ready for primetime' fault of bitcoin

02:01

deedbot-

[Qntra] John Kasich Is America - http://qntra.net/2016/03/john-kasich-is-america/

02:02

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34700 @ 0.00051532 = 17.8816 BTC [+]

02:04

^ http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-03-2016#1431302

02:04

Logged on 12-03-2016 18:43:24; mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo guy's pretty lulzy. piece pumping him, large lulz potential. jus' sayin'.

02:04

Please feel free to add further lulz in comments

02:10

*

adlai gives up, after a dozen painful minutes spent trying to squeeze a beatbetification pun out of rosy-smelling corpsorations

02:20

;;bcstats

02:20

02:20

;;ticker --market all

02:20

Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 414.86, vol: 4024.57960254 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 414.193, vol: 2839.34471 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 416.4, vol: 10951.16911885 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 405.0, vol: 1.33 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 420.27693, vol: 25208.39880000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 413.78, vol: 2995.95622037 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 419.7518, vol: 10.61601934 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)

02:20

;;more

02:20

418.082285048

02:23

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87154 @ 0.00051076 = 44.5148 BTC [-] {2}

02:25

*

adlai must admit that before reading this latest article, he wasn't sure which party kasich celebrates; and that is still the case

02:25

probably best to leave it thus; 'math is hard'!

02:27

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46950 @ 0.0005094 = 23.9163 BTC [-] {2}

02:28

adlai: 'Murican politics is like pop kabala, it's nihilism and fraud all the way down

~ 16 minutes ~

02:45

For the EE nerds

02:47

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cdb4JZ5XIAA-PBD.jpg

02:47

... ( http://bit.ly/1YPN3Ww )

02:48

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5708 @ 0.00050928 = 2.907 BTC [-]

~ 16 minutes ~

03:04

*

adlai might actually like it in that case,, being a nihilistic fraud himself!

03:05

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28176 @ 0.00051026 = 14.3771 BTC [+] {2}

03:08

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33162 @ 0.00050921 = 16.8864 BTC [-] {2}

03:09

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 77738 @ 0.00050871 = 39.5461 BTC [-]

03:22

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63400 @ 0.00051034 = 32.3556 BTC [+] {3}

~ 26 minutes ~

03:48

;;nethash

03:48

1115867657.85

04:01

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70350 @ 0.00050843 = 35.7681 BTC [-] {4}

04:07

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45700 @ 0.00051038 = 23.3244 BTC [+] {2}

04:11

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 120507 @ 0.00050825 = 61.2477 BTC [-] {7}

04:14

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 109300 @ 0.00050755 = 55.4752 BTC [-] {4}

04:20

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64593 @ 0.00050548 = 32.6505 BTC [-] {3}

04:30

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 83650 @ 0.00050505 = 42.2474 BTC [-] {2}

~ 16 minutes ~

04:46

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29300 @ 0.00050948 = 14.9278 BTC [+]

~ 15 minutes ~

05:01

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72600 @ 0.00050948 = 36.9882 BTC [+]

05:02

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23100 @ 0.00050948 = 11.769 BTC [+]

05:06

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33920 @ 0.0005113 = 17.3433 BTC [+] {3}

~ 18 minutes ~

05:25

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47322 @ 0.00050899 = 24.0864 BTC [-] {4}

~ 15 minutes ~

05:40

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52100 @ 0.00050796 = 26.4647 BTC [+]

05:44

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 74900 @ 0.00050624 = 37.9174 BTC [-] {3}

05:57

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 145500 @ 0.00050433 = 73.38 BTC [-] {2}

~ 19 minutes ~

06:17

[MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 2305 @ 0.00277777 = 6.4028 BTC [-]

06:20

ascii_field> anyone else here read the lee sedol games? << i've looked through.

06:21

<ascii_field> was that the one where operator turned out to be << yes, with the reserve these ex post facto "turned out to be" things deserve.

06:24

pete_dushenski> mircea_popescu: does the bbet receiver have the authority to determine the cut-off date for acceptable wager resolutions and to refund any bets submitted but deemed "too far away" for the receiver to reasonably hold the funds in escrow ? or is this line in the sand to be drawn by you and kakobrekla ? << in general this'd be the receiver's authority. a reasonable path is you know, get the domain, put up

06:24

a "bitbet is in receivership, send no more bets" thing, give it a week or w/e. i doubt the receiver would have to wait out any ongoing bets, can prolly just refund if the reasonable resolution is too far away in the future.

06:25

but yes, by and large there's a lot of discretionary room for receiver.

06:25

xm2hi> yeah, and about the ecosystem that Mircea has created. impressive records. << - >> ascii_field> << there will be maxint of these now won't there.

06:26

of both kinds, i guess. with any luck, balance shifts slowly to the left as time goes on.

06:27

punkman> would that 100btc have to come out of bet money? << what 100 btc ?

06:28

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100002 @ 0.00050553 = 50.554 BTC [+] {3}

06:30

look at that, archive.is went away ?

06:34

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93900 @ 0.0005056 = 47.4758 BTC [+]

06:34

old links still work, main page tho is borkt. mebbe it comes back.

06:39

punkman ah, no, i can't read it that way.

06:48

;;blocks

06:48

{"blockcount":402601}

06:52

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 85300 @ 0.00050888 = 43.4075 BTC [+] {2}

06:53

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51150 @ 0.0005101 = 26.0916 BTC [+] {2}

06:54

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 83513 @ 0.00050468 = 42.1473 BTC [-] {4}

06:56

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47600 @ 0.00050289 = 23.9376 BTC [-] {5}

06:58

punkman 70 of those 100 btc belong to mp/kako anyway

06:58

the remaining 30 would come outta mp's/kako's pockets

07:01

as per listing agreement

07:01

(ipo proceeds were paid directly to mp/kako rather than to bbet)

07:02

see 3.2 (c), (f)

07:04

altho i guess technically they also could have sold 1mn shares each from 3.2 (f)

07:04

so the outstanding liabilities to shareholders could be as high as 50%, tho i doubt it.

07:06

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50004 @ 0.00050179 = 25.0915 BTC [-] {2}

07:11

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 120477 @ 0.00049876 = 60.0891 BTC [-] {4}

07:12

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51328 @ 0.00049322 = 25.316 BTC [-] {2}

~ 42 minutes ~

07:55

sup trb, any development going on since my patches got fired? B)

07:56

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68650 @ 0.0004427 = 30.3914 BTC [-] {2}

08:00

"Unrelated but why is this site's logo a bunny on a fucking Confederate flag?"

08:00

polarbeard not afaik. how you been ?

08:01

very busy in meatspace

08:01

but I'm still working in my little scheme-abomination, just slowly

08:02

cool.

08:03

deedbot-

[Daniel P. Barron] Rest Easy - http://danielpbarron.com/2016/rest-easy/

08:08

deedbot-

[Trilema] Gangs of New York - http://trilema.com/2016/gangs-of-new-york/

08:17

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50448 @ 0.00044269 = 22.3328 BTC [-] {2}

08:18

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8502 @ 0.00044016 = 3.7422 BTC [-]

08:19

" This firm grasp of sex and gender allowed Kasich to authoritatively heap praise on the legions of women who left their kitchens to help his campaign (archived)."

08:19

ahaha ok pretty good.

08:24

meatspace is always over busy. if only traffic didn't exist.

08:27

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41184 @ 0.00044016 = 18.1275 BTC [-] {2}

08:34

it actually doesn't for despicable cyclists like me

08:36

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57067 @ 0.00044414 = 25.3457 BTC [+] {2}

08:38

polarbeard: what is mileage of your commute?

08:39

[MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 1122 @ 0.00277777 = 3.1167 BTC [-]

08:39

;ticker --market all

08:39

;;ticker --market all

08:39

Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 414.19, vol: 3554.76960751 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 410.0, vol: 5376.37856 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 414.15, vol: 9901.60494268 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 405.0, vol: 1.33 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 419.679022, vol: 24536.31580000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 412.074, vol: 3161.77970659 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 418.822623, vol: 23.11506716 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)

08:39

;;more

08:39

416.448858518

08:40

I don't commute, code can be transfered over the wire :)

08:40

you should hold a class in that wonder.

08:41

only if my coworkers actually worked as they do here when working from home

08:42

sheep must be managed in large groups

~ 15 minutes ~

08:57

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100300 @ 0.00044016 = 44.148 BTC [-]

09:11

[MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 607 @ 0.00277777 = 1.6861 BTC [-]

09:16

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1431921 << it came out that the bot only is able to think about a dozen moves forward, and if none too much branching.

09:16

Logged on 14-03-2016 10:20:24; mircea_popescu: ascii_field> anyone else here read the lee sedol games? << i've looked through.

09:16

ersatz.

09:18

i guess either we see a bunch of more games where this theory is tested, or else the great achievement goes into storage to keep the d-wave company.

09:18

other champs already lining up to play

09:18

lessee if they let'em.

09:18

5th game - tonight.

09:19

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 86600 @ 0.00044016 = 38.1179 BTC [-]

09:19

iirc

09:20

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1431896 << definitely in the logz

09:20

Logged on 14-03-2016 06:47:55; BingoBoingo: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cdb4JZ5XIAA-PBD.jpg

09:27

!up Saweighfteen

09:29

thankyou

09:29

Saweighfteen: and who might you be ?

09:30

slightly less than sixteen; popbabyly unwelcome

09:30

this may be the first case of a person who is an age.

09:30

^

09:30

Saweighfteen: you stand for all slightly younger than 16 ? e.g., mozart at 15 ?

09:31

how does this work

09:31

erp..

09:31

lost for words

09:32

Saweighfteen: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com >> enjoy the logz.

09:32

#bitcoin-assets log ... ( http://bit.ly/1k33Uab )

09:35

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 109223 @ 0.00044088 = 48.1542 BTC [+] {2}

09:42

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5200 @ 0.0004437 = 2.3072 BTC [+]

09:47

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 107100 @ 0.00044146 = 47.2804 BTC [-]

09:51

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f59nxsrtm8U

09:51

Hotel Garuda - Smoke Signals - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1UsMZLP )

09:51

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 85071 @ 0.00044016 = 37.4449 BTC [-] {2}

09:53

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69484 @ 0.00043844 = 30.4646 BTC [-] {2}

10:01

http://thenextweb.com/insider/2016/03/14/one-of-the-worlds-most-notorious-hackers-just-revealed-his-identity-to-me << lulzy imbecilic 'l3337 h4xx000rz' piece. even features the obligatory romania.

10:01

One of the world’s most notorious hackers just revealed his identity to me ... ( http://bit.ly/1pj5Jld )

10:02

mircea_popescu will love http://woodcoin.xyz/woodcoin/2016-03-14#i_35977

10:02

IRC log for #woodcoin, 2016-03-14 ... ( http://bit.ly/1pj5RRG )

10:03

asciilifeform: http://www.wired.com/2002/03/aigames/ << although a snorefest to you, this is the article that got me into AI

10:03

I have a soft spot for neural networks cause I spent many of my 8th grade lunches in the library building them.

10:04

thestringpuller: i did also. and we had a sorta diploma work thesis at the school i went to, and mine was re: feasibility of solving go via neural net...

10:05

(even worked lisp into it. but this was a dead end thing and i guarantee that it is not interesting to anybody today)

10:05

while we're on the subject, who recalls that arsebook also has a go thing?

10:05

It would seem Go or any game is playable via neural net if you train the net well enough?

10:06

and, unlike google, theirs has none of the secretive derpitude, it plays on kgs, they post progress reports, etc.

10:06

thestringpuller: nn forgets as readily as it learns

10:06

which is why google's thing uses montecarlo method as heavily as nn

10:06

it is 'dragon with two heads'

10:06

that was what I focused on the most in 8th grade - LTM in neural netowkrs

10:06

i will also point out that google INVENTED NOTHING for this item

10:07

it is simply 'throw infinite money at decade-old algos'

10:07

The algo's imo were ahead of their time. Hopfield nets et. al.

10:08

that's why that article was so interesting to me as a 13 year old since the AI in games was exhibiting emergent behavior not seen previously. (or at least throughout my childhood)

10:08

i would read it, but it barfs, 'ad blocker detected', etc

10:08

fuck wired.

10:08

with hot poker.

10:10

I'll text-ify it later. But I guess point it, don't you think computational power plays a role in what AI does in practice?

10:10

thestringpuller: see the mega-thread re: same,

10:11

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=09-03-2016#1427845

10:11

Logged on 09-03-2016 16:19:22; asciilifeform: thestringpuller: there were once two schools of thought re: how to do 'ai'

10:18

thestringpuller: see, in particular, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=26-01-2016#1386298

10:18

Logged on 26-01-2016 17:20:06; ascii_butugychag: (there was a spiffy talk at shmoo, which mentioned how nn used in image recognition usually imprints on what - to a human - would be an entirely accidental cluster of pixels, and if you flip'em, it will recognize an obvious, e.g,. cat, as a refrigerator, etc)

10:26

that seems to be a practical problem of neural nets. had an ex who's best friend's dad at the time worked on AI. He told me this story about how they were training a neural net to identify enemy tanks from allied tanks. well all the allied tanks had good pictures. the enemy tanks were recon photos taken at night. So the nn ended up learning to tell difference between photos taken at night vs day

10:33

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-03-2016#1431630 << if the summarized version of this is "it sometimes costs money to do things", then i guess all businesses have an uncontrollable, unspecified expense structure

10:33

Logged on 13-03-2016 20:57:48; mircea_popescu: hence my comment about fragility. there are two main threads here that would-be bitcoin entrepreneurs must heed quite closely. one is that - your expense structure is not either a) in your own control or b) specificable. for as long as your business model involves bitcoin as it currently exists, you're doing the economic equivalent of linking remote dlls.

10:33

hot dog vendor: "what if the price of buns goes up?"

10:35

not everyone can have a fully vertically integrated business from the get go

10:35

indeed

10:35

last time americans tried that all we got were these lousy anti-trust laws

10:35

hey, do you guys remember yesterday when MP said he'd steal 750 BTC worth of outstanding bets if he can't find a receiver for bitbet?

10:36

log?

10:36

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-03-2016#1431645

10:36

Logged on 13-03-2016 21:02:11; ben_vulpes: "I will simply consider the matter moot." << and keep bettor funds if no receiver steps forward?

10:36

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-03-2016#1431648

10:36

Logged on 13-03-2016 21:02:54; mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes eventually.

10:37

nubbins`: what would you do in his place? spend the rest of your life waiting for a receiver ?

10:37

give to the first hobo who asks ?

10:37

"the rest of your life"

10:37

what's the maximum allowed length of a bet on bitbet?

10:37

ask kakobrekla ?

10:37

i have nfi

10:37

1 year

10:37

it's not measured in lifespans

10:38

nubbins`: yes well the question was not about bets. it was about how long you would have mircea_popescu wait for a receiver.

10:38

even if all bets run to term, bbet still has to be operated by somebody

10:38

to pay'em out

10:38

asciilifeform i'm not the one who introduced "rest of your life" absurdity here

10:38

nubbins`: so you would operate it yourself, for no reward, for a year ?

10:39

how is that different from ' mircea_popescu ought to have eaten the loss '

10:39

it would be trivial for me to generate a list (and for him to confirm its legit) of bettors that need to be refunded, he can then take a haircut for the expenses that brought bb down (nothing i can do bout it) and case closed

10:39

no, i'd tell bettors to sign a statement with the address they used to fund their bets, in order to receive a refund

10:39

if i couldn't bear to wait X amount of time

10:40

kakobrekla: i forget, did you ever write at length re: your side of the unpleasantries ?

10:40

because right now the only thing i read was mircea_popescu's 'and kakobrekla refused...' thing

10:41

kakobrekla: was is essentially what nubbins` said earlier ?

10:41

i can publish if someone wants to read. in very short, its: no skin in the game - no game

10:42

i will read it, for my own education

10:42

but i think i can infer what it was, from above

10:42

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33400 @ 0.00043925 = 14.671 BTC [+] {2}

10:42

if kakobrekla gets no dividends for a year+, he must do something else to pay bills..?

10:43

i dont think dividends ever paid the bills.

10:43

asciilifeform at the risk of once again putting words in kakobrekla's mouth, i think it's just a case of kako being unwilling to sign off on "expenses" introduced by mp that kako felt were not legit

10:44

then presumably kakobrekla would still have 'skin in the game' ?

10:44

at which point mp's ego took the wheel

10:44

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 85309 @ 0.00043847 = 37.4054 BTC [-] {2}

10:46

speaking of: i had a 0 fee transaction confirmed today. it was made by mistake on or before 26 feb. and was not visible on any block explorer for the period of 18 days.

10:46

miners konspiraci ? no. inconsistent relay policies? yes.

10:46

kakobrekla: was it high-S ?

10:47

was there a massive mempool backlog?

10:50

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 276055 @ 0.00043834 = 121.0059 BTC [-] {5}

10:51

it seems low s.

10:51

"it is impermissible and foreign to the spirit of marxism-leninism to elevate one person, to transform him into a superman possessing supernatural characteristics akin to those of a god."

10:52

nubbins` i dont have any data on mempool backlog during the period

10:52

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432087 << danielpbarron the bible says something similar to this, no?

10:52

Logged on 14-03-2016 14:51:36; phf: "it is impermissible and foreign to the spirit of marxism-leninism to elevate one person, to transform him into a superman possessing supernatural characteristics akin to those of a god."

10:53

not re:marxism-leninism of course

11:02

!up snorera

11:03

!v assbot:nubbins`.rate.kakobrekla.5:3dd5c75e6eb580d676a8bec10313e0623b3ffc472704cfc7f67d01d4cb8244a9

11:03

Successfully added a rating of 5 for kakobrekla with note: a principled and honourable businessman.

11:05

pool??

11:05

pool

11:05

pool party

11:06

dont leave any beard bits in the water pls

11:06

i'm clean-shaven these days

11:06

no worries

11:07

so they're pubes?

11:08

or someone dropped a fucking polar bear orf the deep end

11:08

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 122002 @ 0.00043623 = 53.2209 BTC [-] {4}

11:09

hard to say what happened

11:10

http://mpex.co/?mpsic=S.MPOE looks like the market's reacting pretty strongly to mp's rashness

11:10

S.MPOE last 86@0.00043554 ... ( http://bit.ly/1USv0yT )

11:10

massive sells today

11:12

smth like 2000 btc worth?

11:12

you??

11:12

;;calc 2000*[ticker --last]

11:12

829100

11:13

bbl

11:14

nubbins`: i thought you did not believe that mpoe was a market ?

11:14

in the sense that a lemonade stand is not a food service business, regardless of the nickels rolling around the lemons

11:15

nubbins`: and who then was 'actual business' ? mtgox ?

11:15

usgbase ?

11:15

havel0l ?

11:16

no, although mp's demonstrated a karpeles-esque mastery of the protocol lately

11:16

no, srsly, mp's elbow button aside, who is the example nubbins` would have us learn from ?

11:16

sadly, none exists

11:17

i would say brian armstrong

11:17

he is the best thing bitcoin has to offer

11:17

waiwut

11:17

maybe Olivier Janssens?

11:17

asciilifeform hanbot had some pretty sage advice a few years back that was severely overlooked by all parties

11:18

how to start a bitcoin business

11:18

hanbot's hot

11:18

nubbins`: hanbot's advice was derived from working with mptronics

11:18

doubtful she can sage too hard

11:18

asciilifeform agreed

11:18

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=339544.msg3642934#msg3642934

11:18

BitBet Stole ~$7,000 from me (10 BTC) ... ( http://bit.ly/1p6Dw0X )

11:18

"Failing to use tx fees is mooching. Using a (notoriously inept) "service" that fails to use tx fees is also mooching."

11:19

sadly, even though mp worked with mptronics, he failed to heed this advice

11:19

was there ever a reason for using no tx fee?

11:19

thestringpuller idiocy / cheapness

11:19

yeah, to save b

11:19

a desire to see the world bend instead of him, etc

11:19

this is what was stated why the payouts were using 0-fee tx?

11:19

"i shouldn't have to pay fee because i'm me"

11:19

take your pick

11:20

nubbins`: what would have been your conclusion if he had transmitted with a fee but same thing happened ?

11:20

I'm still confused I guess as to why no fee was used for the payouts..........

11:20

asciilifeform: that happened, and we found it was tx malleability, not a cartel...

11:20

^what alf said, fee or no, it's protocol

11:20

asciilifeform what would have been your conclusion if wednesday was the colour magenta? what, are we discussing hypotheticals now?

11:20

yes.

11:21

no.

11:21

yhes

11:22

asciilifeform what would have been your conclusion if he had paid out bettors 1000 times from 1000 different inputs?

11:22

i'm not interested in discussing what my conclusion would have been if something that didn't happen happened.

11:22

"what if you had to pick between being electrocuted by your penis and having mr. peanut officiate your wedding?"

11:22

nubbins`: i have nfi why he transmitted without fee. just as i have nfi why the operators at chernobyl reactor 4 wanted to 'test'

11:23

http://chernobylgallery.com/chernobyl-disaster/cause << see also

11:23

What Caused The Disaster | The Chernobyl Gallery ... ( http://bit.ly/1V6J1sZ )

11:23

asciilifeform see the ocean ranger disaster for another NFI situation

11:23

asciilifeform: pretty difficult to test a defective reactor

11:23

asciilifeform but the set of possible reasons is finite and bounded

11:23

iirc that wouldn't have happened with a legit reactor

11:23

anyway! bbl

11:24

i'll leave you with one more nugget of applicable advice from hanbot

11:24

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=339544.msg3644723#msg3644723

11:24

BitBet Stole ~$7,000 from me (10 BTC) ... ( http://bit.ly/1V6JdIE )

11:25

You weren't caught in some occult and unknowable coincidence that was out of your hands [when you chose to send a 0-fee tx and you got bitten as a result]. You either didn't make sure you understood the basics of using bitcoin, or else you decided not to care.

11:26

nubbins`: we had this thread ?

11:26

the incident hanbot described concerned freshly-moved coinz.

11:27

mircea_popescu was moving coin that was legitly movable, as per the (rotten) protocol, sans fee.

11:27

as far as i can see.

11:27

well should have waited 18 days for confirmation instead of 1 day?

11:27

yes, they were movable and they moved. how do you say - mega unsurprise.

11:28

so this'd be rather like faulting a fella shot as a bystander in a bank robbery, for not wearing a flak jacket that day ?

11:28

flak jacket illegal here

11:28

bystander shouldn't be standing up during a bank robbery!!!1

11:29

snorera: ty for inhabiting the shitland that exists to make usaschwitz look good!

11:29

somebody gotta do it.

11:29

cops might wanna shoot us

11:31

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30400 @ 0.00043554 = 13.2404 BTC [-]

11:32

!up snorera

11:34

;seen cazalla

11:34

;;seen cazalla

11:34

cazalla was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 3 days, 10 hours, 37 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <cazalla> (which in a round about way, probably is ha)

11:36

single handedly increasing th popul;ation

11:39

he's got 4 chinese girls in the shed

11:41

thats what 10 bc does

11:45

nah cazallas a good bloke

11:45

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 125453 @ 0.00043437 = 54.493 BTC [-] {7}

11:49

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70788 @ 0.00043236 = 30.6059 BTC [-]

11:50

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-03-2016#1431714 << http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432045 << upon consideration the (absurd! ridiculous! i don't understand how the world works!) schelling point is for kakobrekla and mircea_popescu to split the haul

11:50

Logged on 13-03-2016 21:22:28; ben_vulpes: ascii_field: game theoretically permawedges obviously.

11:50

Logged on 14-03-2016 14:35:55; nubbins`: hey, do you guys remember yesterday when MP said he'd steal 750 BTC worth of outstanding bets if he can't find a receiver for bitbet?

11:50

voopzz

11:50

ben_vulpes: what haul

11:50

hey vex back for the drama?

11:51

ben_vulpes: looks like !

11:51

don't be thick, asciilifeform

11:51

ben_vulpes: no srsly what haul

11:54

ben_vulpes: lemme guess, you expect to see that he will turn down dooglus because he isn't active in modern wot, jurov because he agreed with nubs, you because usaschwitz inmate, and this leaves nobody so the bets get eaten ?

11:54

or that no one even bids ? or what.

11:55

how could i be so thick and naive! asciilifeform points out that the coffers might not even contain anything.

11:55

what coffers

11:55

ben_vulpes already thinks that mircea_popescu spent the betted coin on drink? or what.

11:55

i expect it is still there.

11:55

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432167 <<< protocol says no such thing

11:55

Logged on 14-03-2016 15:27:14; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu was moving coin that was legitly movable, as per the (rotten) protocol, sans fee.

11:56

davout: correct, the 'promise' says it.

11:56

protocol says miners can include it or not, at their own option

11:56

the protocol says pretty much nothing save what constitutes a valid tx and block.

11:56

aha.

11:56

which is why i said 'rot'

11:56

asciilifeform: why would anyone step into receivership. a fee of anything less than the bill is lulzy small and will tar the receiver. doing it for free is chumpishly cleaning up mircea_popescu's mess.

11:56

ben_vulpes: presumably receiver gets to operate bbet if he can make it solvent ?

11:56

or do i catastrophically misunderstand.

11:57

likely alf

11:57

bitbet is dead.

11:57

sfyl

11:57

snorera: i'm pretty sure i don't meet at least 4 or 5 of the qualifications.

11:57

snorera: calls, at the very minimum, for an expert sapper, who is not a reich subject

11:57

i meant its likely the reciever woould try to maintain, but i can see yuo as it

11:58

l0l

11:58

i can see me moreso

11:58

aha.

11:58

im quite qualified

11:58

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55950 @ 0.00043162 = 24.1491 BTC [-] {4}

11:58

ben_vulpes: why do you say dead ?

11:58

s.mpoe taking a serious beating today :/

11:59

folks were bettin' long into the in-my-cuntry-theres-a-problem saga

11:59

davout: tis the Great Divestment.

11:59

;;gettrust snorera

11:59

WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user davout to user snorera: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=davout&dest=snorera | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=snorera | Rated since: never

11:59

davout: vex

11:59

asciilifeform: let's just think about 'mods' for a moment.

11:59

fuck off sassoon

11:59

oh lol

11:59

asciilifeform: ty

12:00

ben_vulpes: waiwut

12:00

i guess you've an interest davout?

12:01

i just voted for alf

12:01

snorera: i dun think there is vote.

12:01

i have an interests in more things that can fit in 24 hours

12:01

if there isnt i certauinly dont get one

12:01

i am qualified tho

12:02

ben_vulpes: it was a mighty fine mazerati, if beaten up, but now wrecked ?

12:02

!up solrodar

12:03

asciilifeform: hand fabricated lakebed racer

12:03

with a deadman's switch

12:03

mircea_popescu, kakobrekla, et al: is bbet for sale for the cost of the shortfall? or do i entirely fail to grasp the algo here

12:04

!up snorera

12:04

ofc not for sale, asciilifeform.

12:04

i will be astonished if bitbet actually goes into receivership.

12:05

ben_vulpes: why ?

12:05

ben_vulpes: you think mircea_popescu was murdered by cia and hitler wants the 750 betted coins to buy a new airfart-one ?

12:05

recive dont mean sale

12:06

est no necessito

12:06

ben_vulpes: hehe, the 5 stages of grief :)

12:08

reciever just has to work out whjat the fuck is happening

12:08

alf qualified

12:09

ben_vulpes> i will be astonished if bitbet actually goes into receivership. >> and i will be astonished if one day you get off ass, actually do something. but then again, that's our respective problem.

12:09

and in other news, dear god what log.

12:10

receiver takes over the business and then either sells it or liquidates it with the intention of maximizing the return to the previous shareholders

12:10

once receiver is appointed, previous shareholders and management have no say in how the business is run

12:10

but receiver is obligated to act in shareholders interests

12:10

solrodar stakeholder's interest.

12:10

feel freee to recieve as you like

12:11

id be reporting to mp and kako

12:11

mircea_popescu: if you mean creditors, they have to respect their claims but they're ultimately working for the shareholders, right

12:12

well yeah, creditors generally. it can't just go, "hey, shareholder's interest is they get all moneyz so there. problem solved."

12:16

snorera: there is no reporting, it's a fiduciary arrangement, they can't actually control what the receiver does

12:16

that's what would distinguish a receiver from an arbitrator

12:17

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432016 << check that out, 3 of us!

12:17

Logged on 14-03-2016 14:04:26; asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i did also. and we had a sorta diploma work thesis at the school i went to, and mine was re: feasibility of solving go via neural net...

12:17

mine didn't do anything really.

12:17

i aint no arbitrator

12:17

twat

12:18

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432026 << phuctor, sort-of.

12:18

Logged on 14-03-2016 14:07:07; asciilifeform: it is simply 'throw infinite money at decade-old algos'

12:18

do you have an interet?

12:18

interest

12:20

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432065 << if you wish to help the receiver along through donating all/part of the work in a publicly verifiable manner, that is your privilege and i am sure will be appreciated by the beneficiaries who they may be.

12:20

Logged on 14-03-2016 14:39:06; kakobrekla: it would be trivial for me to generate a list (and for him to confirm its legit) of bettors that need to be refunded, he can then take a haircut for the expenses that brought bb down (nothing i can do bout it) and case closed

12:21

you don't, however, have a manner to walk out of this WITH bitbet, no matter what discussions may pass. it does not belong to you, irrespective what you may think.

12:21

snorera: me?

12:21

yeah you

12:22

I am considering it, but doubt I have the necessary reputation here

12:22

who are you anyway ? either of you two ?

12:22

I did the trb call graphing work last year

12:23

im not a wank hole

12:23

!b 2

12:23

Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/13JCPR0.txt )

12:24

solrodar ah i recall.

12:24

so I have proven a certain amount of technical skill, but this role would also need proven good judgement

12:25

and a disinclination to split with a few hundred btc.

12:25

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432087 << i lollered.

12:25

Logged on 14-03-2016 14:51:36; phf: "it is impermissible and foreign to the spirit of marxism-leninism to elevate one person, to transform him into a superman possessing supernatural characteristics akin to those of a god."

12:28

if you ever throw a party somewhere that isn't in a swamp i wanna come.

12:32

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432210 << so basically we have a community full of people who confuse "voice of sanity" and "people on tilt" liberally, and by and large is willing to "discuss" everything from this arm's length position of "whatever, as long as we're spending other people's money here's what we think", but by and large can't do anything AT ALL ?

12:32

Logged on 14-03-2016 15:56:32; ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: why would anyone step into receivership. a fee of anything less than the bill is lulzy small and will tar the receiver. doing it for free is chumpishly cleaning up mircea_popescu's mess.

12:32

and this is mp's fault, because unlike everyone else he at least you know, try to run the daycare for half a decade ?

12:32

this new learning amuses me, go protect the earth from earthquakes with banana peels or whatever it is you do for great glory.

12:33

nubbins`: it's a shame that you chose this approach for your denouncement. some people are here (myself, maybe ascii) not to make money, but to fuck around with novel ways of doing things. it would've been nifty if, as a "lord" if you will, you picked up the game and made your accusations formal, maybe solicited a judge from the wot, made it interesting somehow! you don't have to obviously, but the approach that you chose was basic and

12:33

invalidates not just mp, but others who participated in construction of tmsr.

12:33

nubbins`: i think it's a pointless to discuss (and takes away from the core of the issue) whether or not miners are conspiring against bitbet. ascii's been known to say that lizard hitler personally disconnected his node, nobody cared to pipe in then, because it's an established local way of talking and thinking (не веришь прими за сказку). miners are a cartel, they can collectively decide what the protocol behavior should be

12:33

into a controversial protocol behavior, mp called it "miners are conspiring against bitbet". you can personally call mp stupid for that, but there's no "crime" there.

12:33

nubbins`: the core of the issue (the way i understand it) is whether or not mp can use personal funds to pay out bets, and whether he can later ask for those funds back from shareholders. that seems to contradict the contract, so the accusation goes, he's in breach of contract. seems simple enough.

12:33

i think this question is receiving far less attention then the alleged miner collusion. i would've liked to see it approached through a judge (perhaps moon is a harsh mistress style "would you be our judge?"), a carefully constructed paper, an investigation, rather than bickering in logs. i think the question is also separate from receivership and is about ensuring that the rest of tmsr maintain a shared vision of what has transpired,

↖ ↖ ↖

12:33

rather then ~everybody~ seemingly losing their shit.

12:33

12:33

(apologies for wall of text)

12:34

didnt read, no worries

12:34

lol

12:34

i was here before you, phf , doing exactly the same thing. so count the whole list thx.

12:35

count the whole list?

12:35

(mp, myself, maybe ascii)

12:35

definitely mod6

12:36

there's a bunch of people who, however poor may they be irl, are still not driven by the poverty so to speak.

12:37

this usually attracts talkers, if they be any good, at least. exactly the same way it worked for satoshi, and exactly the same way it always seems to work out, a little later you look around and there's all this democracy and "consumers have come to expect" and general bullshit imported, which you don't even rightly feel able to explain whence it came.

12:37

but whatever! no swamp was drained in one day.

12:40

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48226 @ 0.00043232 = 20.8491 BTC [+] {2}

12:40

mircea_popescu what about the part of the listing that says shares will be paid out a minimum of 0.00001 ? If selling the domain+code does not cover the 17btc shortfall and this minimum, are you and kakobrekla expected to pay this out of pocket?

12:40

i would think so, yes.

12:40

phf there is no judge mircea_popescu wuld accept such "verdicts" from. remember when rota decided in similar way?

12:41

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432304 << yes !

12:41

Logged on 14-03-2016 16:33:32; phf: i think this question is receiving far less attention then the alleged miner collusion. i would've liked to see it approached through a judge (perhaps moon is a harsh mistress style "would you be our judge?"), a carefully constructed paper, an investigation, rather than bickering in logs. i think the question is also separate from receivership and is about ensuring that the rest of tmsr maintain a shared vision

12:41

didn't MP follow decision of Rota?

12:41

*

shinohai beware the ides of March

12:41

before closing down rota?

12:41

yes, and then declared he would never subject himself to something like that again

12:41

mp did follow it, but jurov is none to bothered with things like logic, or not outright lying, when there's something the monkey on his back WANTS!!1

12:42

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432312 << wai wut, i am by no stretch of the imagination qualified to clear the bbet minefield

12:42

Logged on 14-03-2016 16:35:22; mircea_popescu: (mp, myself, maybe ascii)

12:43

asciilifeform it is, like anything else, a voluntary position.

12:43

so am i lying when i say, that you resolved not to subject to any judgement?

12:43

jurov i said, at the time, that i can't in good conscience allow people to vote largesse out of mpex. plox, read the thing you're talking about.

12:43

jurov: and when judge passes a verdict and mp does not comply or whatever the outcome is we can say "tmsr as an instituation has failed and we can walk away" i mean, what's the problem there?

12:43

mircea_popescu: i mean, from purely technical point of view, i think i have sufficient brain, but if it became known that i have the ignition keys to xxx btc in my house, i will last maybe a day before gestapo.

12:44

asciilifeform i do not think you have sufficient brain. business is business, there's nothing "technical point of view" about it.

12:44

fair.

12:44

let the pro sappers do it.

12:44

yes, in a different life had you grown to be a jew and went into commercial law rather than kaballah, you would have done fine.

12:44

in this life tho, you went another way.

12:45

i don't know which direction detonator in claymore unscrews, either.

12:45

phf exactly how is this "not comply" going to work ? cuz i dun follow really.

12:45

or how to remove antitamper on a 'butterfly'

12:45

etc.

12:45

judge is going to rule "hey, mp must continue to spend liberally to try and build a thing out of nothing - BUT THIS TIME WE DECIDE HOW MUCH AND ON WHAT!!1" thus turning tmsr into the 51 state ?

12:45

i'll piss on his grave, judge or no judge.

12:45

*

asciilifeform is actually happy that he isn't being conscripted for this particular chore

12:46

I think the real problem here is not the solvency or otherwise of bitbet, but the fact that mircea_popescu and kakobrekla have had a breakdown in trust and no longer want to work with each other

12:46

that could be resolved by other means than liquidation

12:46

such as by one or both of them selling their controlling interest

12:46

has anybody expressed interest in buying bitbet yet?

12:46

PeterL seems that time came and went.

12:47

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-03-2016#1424845

12:47

Logged on 07-03-2016 16:13:22; mircea_popescu: by all means. hence, " and if there's a single icann in the lot with enough actual gumption to put together a hostile takeover package, i'll certainly consider it."

12:47

PeterL: it'd have to be sold to someone who can be relied on not to run off with the contents ?

12:47

hey check it out, nobody spells icahn's name right.

12:48

there's two peter lamberts ?!

12:48

mircea_popescu: hey some people clearly want to see blood. i think judgement should exclusively affect only people's wot ratings and is necessary for when the issue is complicated and needs an investigation. sort of like a write up that supreme court judges do. nobody even needs to agree with it

12:49

mircea_popescu: as I understand the listing agreement, both you and kakobrekla need to agree before either of you can sell your joint 50%

12:49

how can it be hostile?

12:49

in that it outsts some/all management.

12:49

with their consent

12:49

that's the usual sense of hostile in that context.

12:49

well yes with their consent, it's not rapine.

12:49

!up peter_lambert

12:50

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432314 << what does it mean in this context, to be 'driven by poverty' ?

12:50

Logged on 14-03-2016 16:36:05; mircea_popescu: there's a bunch of people who, however poor may they be irl, are still not driven by the poverty so to speak.

12:50

asciilifeform you familiar with the saying "can take girl out of the trailer park, but not the trailer park out of the girl" ? that, except for boys.

12:51

mircea_popescu: i must confess, i was never on tardtalk, etc. and have very limited experience with this item. but i think i know what it is, from logz

12:52

it's the historical and to my eyes first sense of mean / meanness.

12:52

it is the pestilence that drove my deep disinterest in bitcoin ~users~ 2009-2012.

12:53

illiterate peasants hitting one another with broken-down spades over a stolen fuck-goat

12:54

asciilifeform the receivership of bitbet could include refunding all bet deposits, then the site could be sold without transfering the bet funds, let them restart from scratch?

12:55

PeterL: but receiver would have to actually hold the keys, however briefly

12:55

as i understand

12:55

yes, but receiver and buyer would not have to be the same person

12:55

so these are separate issues

12:56

anyway, i am not involved with any of this, and for very good reasons (see mircea_popescu's explanation.)

12:56

as far as i can see, the only chance of it resolving cleanly involves mircea_popescu doing a multitude of 'things for phree' which is one of the reasons he is in none too happy a mood.

12:57

but holding a gigantic bag of other folks' coin is not really an outsourceable job.

12:58

well, we're many layers above that, however. in this rarefied atmosphere which, however frustrating, is still many miles above the peasants with their fuckgoat, we meet the twin dragon of, on one hand,

12:58

"They consider themselves leaderless. They can have representatives, they can have "evangelists" but they have to believe that their conclusions are all their own, through individual reflection and objective consideration. Interestingly, and on purpose, they believe their brains can handle such an analysis, any analysis. This isn't arrogance. They are told, by universities and the media, that their mind is prepared

12:58

to do this heavy lifting as long as they are given just the right facts, filtered from the noise."

12:58

and on the other hand, the lulzy "a man that doesn't believe in allah can't possibly not go on a murdering rampage" deeply held if ridiculous, and certainly unexamined belief of egyptian peasants, except translated in time and space to you know, "one in a position of authority is necessarily both bad and responsible!"

12:58

these are deeper issues that what can be addressed in plain conversation, i'm sure.

12:59

asciilifeform i'm not doing more shit for free in this context ; not only because it is outrageous for the recipients of charity to direct the disbursement of charity, but most of all because the end result of a world kept clean, warm and humming along on charity is a disproportionate feeling of power in the idle denizens, who then end up running into "steel walls".

12:59

not terribly fair to raise the children thus.

13:00

mircea_popescu: this was an observation, rather than prescription, i am noting that you are doing a megatonne of unplesant wurk for phree.

13:00

point.

13:01

sorta like stalin did.

13:01

what was his reward for leading the 'blind kittens' ?

13:02

and to disabuse THAT notion, i don't personally think stalin was either very apt, very smart, or any sort of example to be followed. is, indeed, a notable example for all sorts of things,

13:02

but most to do with how idiotic everyone else was, not not even measure up to the georgian.

13:02

but this is not why he was working for free.

13:02

he, afaik, simply did not have the tastes with which he could enjoy a reward for his work.

13:02

his aptness - or ineptness - are not the moving part here

13:03

true, on both ends.

13:04

possibly it was his only strength...

13:04

he was not, in the sense discussed earlier, 'moved by poverty'

13:05

left behind no swiss accounts.

13:05

a strength both understood and tried to be replicated by a bunchy of lesser copies throughout the "unalligned" movement and well beyond.

13:06

(notably, refused, for his entire reign, to sell mineral resources from his country to foreign devils. successors IMMEDIATELY began this burning of furniture, culminating in modern ru 'pipe economy.')

13:06

mircea_popescu: aha, it was, in the copies, a mega-l0l quite comparable to the false asceticism of medieval monks

13:07

'vow of poverty' surrounded by gold and jewels, 'chastity' with cocksuckers in every corner, etc.

13:09

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36300 @ 0.00043232 = 15.6932 BTC [+]

13:11

stalin surely too tought "bah stupid poor tarstalk redditors!" when someone was criticizing his zerofee experiments with hitler

13:11

afaik this is on the record, even.

13:12

very much

13:12

by the pool >>> https://i.imgur.com/JVEw9uS.jpg

13:12

... ( http://bit.ly/250h2iU )

13:13

i recently finished an interesting history, 'Расстрелянные герои Советского Союза' (Heroes of SU who were condemned to the firing squad)

13:13

it was largely about this

13:14

(distinguished su military men, who were executed for failure to mop up stalin's mistake)

13:15

though it was never clear to me that the delay-game played with germany was a mistake.

13:16

much as in the case of a recent game of go - what exactly would it being clear or unclear to you do ?

13:17

ow fuck, that's ANOTHER thing i won't have to do, resolve that god damned bet, huh.

13:17

hallelujah.

13:18

;;isup qntra.net

13:18

qntra.net is up

13:18

huh...

13:19

i even promise to not pelt with invective the poor receiver whichever way he chooses to go.

13:20

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432414 << what does study of history 'do' ?

13:20

Logged on 14-03-2016 17:16:26; mircea_popescu: much as in the case of a recent game of go - what exactly would it being clear or unclear to you do ?

13:20

he'll get enough from "the community", i'm sure.

13:20

asciilifeform very different concerns here ; history may be informative but it's never dispositive.

13:20

not in a manner "technical knowledge" or say a blueprint is.

13:21

mircea_popescu: did you read the 4th game ?

13:21

nah i looked (briefly) through the first three

13:21

about all i had time/patience for.

13:22

the 4th is the interesting one.

13:22

maybe one day.

13:22

going through a game of go is rare among endeavours in that i can't be doing other things.

13:22

yeah.

13:23

thestringpuller i see it.

13:24

loads ok here

13:24

"The server at qntra.net can't be found, because the DNS lookup failed."

13:24

I'll try it from another location later. Guess no qntra at work.

13:25

mircea_popescu: but thus far i don't see how the bet is difficult to resolve. the presumption is that the game was legit, no? barring actual proof of shenanigans ?

13:25

is this not how sport bet generally works ? BingoBoingo ?

13:26

myeah.

13:26

it's just this unpleasant "bitbet bets once resolve enact history". i dislike the notion of cementing google's transpared ploy into my blockchain. i'm sure it's all me.

13:26

and in other fema camp news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1cg3b5ECz1qlne6uo1_1280.jpg

13:26

... ( http://bit.ly/250iwd0 )

13:26

mircea_popescu: not only you.

13:27

but mircea_popescu is the one stuck driving the grim bulldozer.

13:27

*resolved / transparent etc.

13:28

<+phf>nubbins`: it's a shame that you chose this approach for your denouncement. some people are here (myself, maybe ascii) not to make money, but to fuck around with novel ways of doing things <<< nothing about what i did prevents this from continuing.

13:29

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43139 @ 0.00043182 = 18.6283 BTC [-] {2}

13:31

what, you can't fuck around with novel ways of doing things because s.bbet imploded?

13:36

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 99250 @ 0.00043155 = 42.8313 BTC [-] {4}

13:37

nubbins`: the one mega-mystery in my mind is still the 0asset thing.

13:38

nubbins`: was it really meant to live only until the first disaster, however small? e.g., stolen server ?

13:38

nubbins`: or was the idea that it ~ought to be~ successful enough to be able to cover any loss with simply the profit from any particular month ?

13:38

nubbins`: that's not the meaning of the paragraph. not "what" you did, but "how" is the focus., and the sentence you're pointing at is an exposition that frames my perspective, in a form similar to "some of us here are shoemakers and we blah blah blah". whatever blah blah blah is, it's not usually about how shoemakers can not shoemake anymore, but is more like "i speak for shoemakers"

13:38

^

13:39

i must agree with phf. and i think this is how nubbins` ended up killfiled by mircea_popescu, for the 'i speak for trees, for the trees have no tongues' thing.

13:39

the 'trees' very much DO have motherfuckingt tongues here.

13:39

and don't need a 'speaker for.'

13:46

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49637 @ 0.00043172 = 21.4293 BTC [+] {3}

13:49

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57200 @ 0.00043122 = 24.6658 BTC [-] {2}

13:54

http://archive.is/Dl6ob <<< look at what the vc capital buys, fake nodez!

13:54

Network Snapshot - Bitnodes ... ( http://bit.ly/250lbmW )

13:55

hello lords and peers

13:55

/Classic:0.12.0/2310 (29.15%)

13:55

l0l!

13:55

and mircea_popescu wondered where the sybils.

13:55

turns out, right there.

13:55

keklicious

13:57

shinohai: betcha there's a botnet install in there.

13:59

there were thousands of sybils, note, for quite some time.

13:59

but what there also was, was mircea_popescu having a notion that he knows how to avoid connecting through them to the minerz

14:00

and possibly he is now cured of it.

14:00

sybil attacks work not because there are many sybils, but because they ~act in concert~

14:01

the number is simply to ensure that folks connecting at random, in public toilets, end up with a thick layer of sybil between them and the statistically probable genuine non-gangrenous flesh somewhere far away.

14:02

xD

14:07

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432450 << what happened to the "reserve" of http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-04-2014#608433 ?

14:07

Logged on 14-03-2016 17:37:40; asciilifeform: nubbins`: the one mega-mystery in my mind is still the 0asset thing.

14:07

Logged on 07-04-2014 19:36:22; kakobrekla: cool, so its a double reverse fractional reserve

14:12

solrodar: nothing need have happened to warrant that question. reserve is there to pay out what was payed in. can't pay for server from reserve. ascii's question is not pointed, he's never seen bitbet's paperwork and is surprised that a business can run without own assets.

14:12

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93550 @ 0.00043262 = 40.4716 BTC [+] {2}

14:17

asciilifeform> nubbins`: or was the idea << or possibly the system that worked well for s.dice was simply carried forward, with not enough thought given to the matter. "hey, it's also gambling".

14:17

well obviously the whole 0-asset thing was always an accounting fiction

14:17

dunno, and the people involved had not the foresight to leave us detailed records of how that logic went.

14:18

it's very easy to enumerate bitbet's assets and liabilities, as mp has done

14:18

but were there ever any reserves, or was that audit a misunderstanding?

14:20

seems to be that most? every? aspect of bitbet operation was funded out of mp's pocket, so it's zero asset because it literally doesn't own any of the parts required for its operation. bitbet as an entity existed purely as a "bets come in, house takes percentage, payments come out" operation.

14:20

the "reserves" thing was mostly a joke. at the time it so happened as part of the mysterious functioning of the mp payment network that inputs originally sent to bitbet were not spent.

14:20

makes sense

14:20

phf well no, kakobrekla wrote and maintained the code and for a while covered the server costs. the former part is no trivial matter, i will point out.

14:21

the latter part come at an end at some point last year, when he asked to have it included in the cost structure. i pointed out to him then that if i correspondingly add my expenses in, we might as well close it.

14:21

so he rather cavallierly offered to continue eating the server while i continue eating the admin.

14:21

ah, i see

14:22

but upon consideration, i did put the amt for the server into the costs, it really being a pittance

14:22

your expenses meaning your time?

14:22

50 bux or something, i don't recall exactly.

14:23

solrodar mno. you may not realise this, but bitbet has to date clocked close to 2k hours of admin time. and this is pointedly not minimum wage sort of work.

14:23

so a clarification to what i said above, it's kakobrekla and mircea_popescu together paying for all aspects of bitbet operation out of pocket

14:23

there's of course also the cost of handling bitcoin payments, which is very VERY far from "free", irrespective what the "big blocks" derps think.

14:23

but currently, the actual bitcoin network fee doesn't even ammount to 1% of the actual cost of interacting with this sprawling pile of shit.

14:24

now, one could say "the same is true of fiat banking", and BY AND LARGE THEY WOULD BE RIGHT. see for instance

14:25

http://trilema.com/2013/time-for-europe-to-repeal-the-us-backed-aml-crap/

14:25

Time for Europe to repeal the US-backed AML crap. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1J3esew )

14:25

that unnamed business, for instance, sustained a 600k euro cost of doing business with fiat banking.

14:25

that was also unpredictable bla bla. and i'm sure the shareholders would very much like management to insulate them from it. if only.

14:26

so you're saying that bitbet hasn't really been profitable in a long time, but you kept it running for entertainment value?

14:26

solrodar: and to finish the thought, you "want" audit to ensure that bitbet holds all the bitcoin for open debts, rather then, say, having it all transfered into kako's or mp's coffers. that's the "reserve" although of course a joking misnomer.

14:27

phf there's no guarantee offered or even contemplated that bitcoin is not fungible.

14:27

so in this sense, bitbet's coffers ARE mp's coffers, and no separation is to be had.

14:29

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26302 @ 0.0004313 = 11.3441 BTC [-] {2}

14:29

asciilifeform> and don't need a 'speaker for.' <<< the problem with the democrat's mind is that he's been ruined by low effort "success" and so will forever be seeking this fantasy of a "silent electorate" to propel him through a life without labour.

14:30

it's a disease of the mind that i don't really think can be cured, just quarantined.

14:30

i'm trying to compartmentalize where there's none, ultimately the whole thing is a counterparty problem, and only recourse is loss&negrate

14:30

hola mats

14:31

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44950 @ 0.00043125 = 19.3847 BTC [-] {2}

14:31

phf in general it'd be helpful if other avenues were found from this sort of situation. in any case it'd be good for bitcoin.

14:32

but hey, if that's above what can be had, whatever, i'll build a shrine to allah / brothel / whatever out of the proceeds and that's that.

14:34

speaking of proceeds, how much of the bitbet IPO was ever completed?

14:36

iirc originally a chunk was sold, then sometime early last year or perhaps late 2014 the remainder of the shares were distributed to the principals. iirc i didn't sell much, mostly now and again to try and temper overexcited price action. should be something like .5 to maybe 3mn shares outstanding depending how much kako himself sold.

14:36

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-03-2016#1431729 << sure.

14:36

Logged on 13-03-2016 21:30:36; pete_dushenski: last one was nigh on two years ago now : http://www.contravex.com/2014/04/07/results-of-first-bitbet-audit-april-7-2014/

14:38

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12000 @ 0.00042716 = 5.1259 BTC [-] {2}

14:38

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1431962 << ty

14:38

Logged on 14-03-2016 12:19:57; mircea_popescu: ahaha ok pretty good.

14:39

mats: "sure" means you apply?

14:39

asciilifeform> and possibly he is now cured of it. <<< amusingly - quite on the contrary! ~you~ had that notion, and appeared to stick to it even in the face of my pointing out that this arrangement is not stable, and only the miners could possibily be running the show.

14:39

so i guess... you are now cured of it ?

14:40

jurov, i'm happy to do the audit but not act as receiver

14:40

why is that, if the question's not too presumptuous ?

14:46

so bitbet has 750.4 in open bets, 742.9 to pay out, 7.5 goes to shareholders/mp?

14:46

well, i'm not entirely sure it can charge 1% if it doesn't resolve the bets.

14:46

but roughly speaking sounds about right.

14:48

if more people had at any point throughout the intervening tax seasons stopped and thought "hey, i made whatever, 100k dollars this year, of which i'm signing off 60k to usg - might as well send tmsr the 0.1% it charges in tax!" then perhaps the foundation would have enough money and i could just donate it there as an endpoint.

14:49

but as it is, doesn't seem a workable plan.

14:49

who knows, maybe in some years or whatever.

14:49

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432524 << i STILL do not see the miners thing as a necessary hypothesis.

14:49

Logged on 14-03-2016 18:39:24; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> and possibly he is now cured of it. <<< amusingly - quite on the contrary! ~you~ had that notion, and appeared to stick to it even in the face of my pointing out that this arrangement is not stable, and only the miners could possibily be running the show.

14:49

asciilifeform funny how this goes.

14:49

it just happens to be exactly what you said.

14:49

so whatever %1's been collected so far is divided between mp,kako,shareholders with receiver making a call there, pay outs go to original addresses, assets are auctioned and the auction proceeds are split between mp,kako with receiver making call there

14:50

well if mircea_popescu demonstrated the logic whereby miner collusion is a necessary hypothesis, vs sybils alone, i must have slept through it ?

14:50

the 'is not stable' thing is pure handwaving.

14:50

asciilifeform did you not say the words "mircea_popescu having a notion that he knows how to avoid connecting through them to the minerz" ?

14:51

mircea_popescu: this is synthesis from earlier threads where you stated that yes, there are sybils, but your octopus of mpb connecting to various trusted folks, incl. over crypted links, is not sybilable

14:51

do they not exactly read "i, asciilifeform, hereby do declare there's no relay network other than the miner's own" ?

14:52

if not, then in what way ?

14:52

phf proceeds from assets should be split between shareholders, mp, kako

14:52

PeterL: that is what i said

14:52

stat rosa pristina, my dear alf.

14:52

there is a network, consisting, apparently, mostly of sybil.

14:52

oh, looked like you left out shareholders on that part

14:52

to which the miners connect. and likewise everyone else.

14:53

this model of (perceptible relay) + (imperceptible miners) is nonsense of the ilk of meta-nsa-in-the-sky.

14:53

interesting how much chaos relay policies cause, whereas some want to completely change consensus rules

14:53

at no point did i state a belief in 'imperceptible miners', just observing that the miner collusion is not a necessary hypothesis re the bbet event.

14:54

well so which is it.

14:54

sybils putting transactions in their pocket and lying about the contents of their mempool, works.

14:54

can i (one) or can't i (one) ?

14:54

waiwut

14:54

can what?

14:54

PeterL: oh from ~sale~ you mean. i don't think that shareholders have any claim to sale. since it's a zero asset corporation, the only movable part is "bets come in, percentage collected, payment sent out". "assets" is the percentage that's collected at the end of month, and immediately distributed to shareholders. what is being sold is domain/codebase and a negotiation rights with mp for hosting. that was never funded by shareholders

14:55

asciilifeform can i relay directly to miners, or can't i ?

14:55

phf it wasn't ?!

14:55

phf, to me the listing seems to say during liquidation shareholders get an even share?

14:55

you just said so yourself

14:55

mircea_popescu: the bbet event suggested that there was at least one layer of prb between mircea_popescu and the miners.

14:55

asciilifeform as a possible explanation.

14:56

mircea_popescu: not from what you just said about you and kako paying out of the pocket

14:56

phf whatever people do with their private funds is their problem, the contract still says the shareholders get it.

14:56

but if mircea_popescu signed a statement that he transmits directly to the miners, and has no doubt that this is so, because he ran the cable himself, i will believe...

14:56

well then

14:56

PeterL: you're correct

14:57

asciilifeform if i didn't think so, the qntra piece would have read "fuck vc sybils already".

14:57

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432438 << Generally how the bet goes. blood taken over contest being a farce generally doesn't make it to bettors.

14:57

Logged on 14-03-2016 17:25:50; asciilifeform: is this not how sport bet generally works ? BingoBoingo ?

14:57

http://log.b-a.link/?date=14-03-2016#1432527 << as i've been reading it, the 17btc is still in dispute? i don't want to be in the position of resolving this, but i'd be happy to audit whatever coins still reside in s.bbet public (or not) addresses and publish results

14:57

Logged on 14-03-2016 18:40:42; mircea_popescu: why is that, if the question's not too presumptuous ?

14:58

mats the question under audit's not that ; not that it would prevent you from doing whatever.

14:58

also not a big fan of handling other people's money

14:58

mircea_popescu: it is not actually my business how mircea_popescu transmits his tx, but since he chose to present the bbet matter in the tmsr public forum, rather than limiting it to folks 'whose business it is', i will say, that the mpb (client and network both) is a serious ?????? in the story. i have nfi how it works, and imho it actually matters for making sense of the observations.

15:01

the 'lighter weight', parsimonious hypothesis is that mpb-net was bamboozled by sybils. rather than miners.

15:02

and that whichever meatspace folk with whom he had peering arrangements, a) bamboozled him and/or b) were in turn bamboozled by their peers.

15:03

i, for instance, will not deal with han chinese unless the deal is strictly cash&carry basis and involves no ongoing trust arrangement.

15:03

learned this from al schwartz, and eminently confirmed in years since.

15:06

perhaps this is a failure of my puny brain, but i am at a loss as to what assurance mircea_popescu could possibly have had, and from whom, that there is not a prb vermin between mpb-net and the miner.

15:08

I guess he could specifically design a transaction which is not passed by prb, and see if it gets into blocks, which I think the high-S thing was an example?

15:08

PeterL: poor example, the extant miners somehow agreed not to mine high-S

15:08

(note, the protocol PERMITS a block with high-S tx. hence my suggestion to build a high-S-only pool.)

15:09

the high-S thing was the most serious, imho, warning bell that there ~is~ such a thing as miner collusion

15:09

it ought not to have been possible for the miners to agree on this.

15:09

aha, so the high-S thing only proves the miners don't like it, you would need to find something the miners allow but prb does not

15:09

game-theoretically.

15:09

PeterL: correct.

15:09

there is not, reliably, such a thing.

15:10

no-fee tx is only ~approximately~ this.

15:10

any miner who wants some extra fee-fees just has to sweep up all high-S txn?

15:10

PeterL: aha.

15:10

the failure of such a miner to exist is a game-theoretical smoking gun.

15:10

as i understand it.

15:11

the fact that 0-fee txn eventually got mined shows that mp is not completely isolated from miners by prb?

15:11

mircea_popescu described the high-S thing as noncontroversial, but for some reason it did not alarm him that miners could agree on something which theoretically leads to dropping PERFECTLY VALID TX on the floor ?!

15:12

PeterL: well the contention is that it was fired maliciously

15:12

i.e. that someone chose to make a particular exception from ordinary prb rules in order to ding bbet.

15:12

as i understand it.

15:12

I still don't see the need for any malisciousness, just somebody holding it in some sort of "side mempool"

15:13

as was described previously

15:13

fwiw, i actually thought that mircea_popescu & kakobrekla's original proposed solution was spiffy

15:13

which solution?

15:13

which is, to define 'being paid in btc' as 'be shown a valid tx that pays you'

15:13

rather than 'wait for the miners'

15:14

but that does not stop doublespends?

15:14

it is the job of the payer to sign a valid tx, from valid inputs.

15:14

if he doublespends, you negrate him and move on.

15:14

a la how we deal with folks who kite cheques.

15:14

this is the historic norm, when there was no blockchain, only stone knives and bearskins.

15:15

blockchain is ~nice~ but its correct operation is not guaranteed.

15:15

although, I gues accounting-wise you could say you were paid the day the transaction was created, rather than the day it goes into block

15:15

and then payment was not late just because it was a long time getting into block

15:16

but would bitbet also extend such to their customers? they seem to be pretty firm about if it is not in the block before bet resolves it becomes a donation to shareholders

15:16

PeterL: this must be so because if this were not so, we have buluceala.

15:17

ergo it must be so.

15:17

!s buluceala

15:17

8 results for 'buluceala' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=buluceala

15:18

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432495 << just how deeply in the red ~was~ bbet, if we consider this ..?

15:18

Logged on 14-03-2016 18:23:03; mircea_popescu: solrodar mno. you may not realise this, but bitbet has to date clocked close to 2k hours of admin time. and this is pointedly not minimum wage sort of work.

15:19

they chose not to charge it to the company, therefore it didn't count

15:19

!s from:mircea_popescu tmsr deficit

15:19

1 results for 'from:mircea_popescu tmsr deficit' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=from%3Amircea_popescu+tmsr+deficit

15:19

!s from:mircea_popescu deficit

15:19

12 results for 'from:mircea_popescu deficit' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=from%3Amircea_popescu+deficit

15:19

PeterL: i think counterparty problem is asymmetrical. that's your collateral is higher then BoA's collateral when you establish partnership

15:19

*that's why

15:20

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432588 -> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=03-07-2015#1185942 and further: core devs made the change in 'prb', miners ate it without thinking twice for the benefits visible on the surface. secondly, block reward is too high for / tx fees too low to expect any heavy optimizations for maximizing fees beyond most simplistic or default

15:20

Logged on 14-03-2016 19:09:28; asciilifeform: it ought not to have been possible for the miners to agree on this.

15:20

Logged on 03-07-2015 21:25:49; kakobrekla: but 'miners' are zombies, will eat whatever comes their way and cant count on them thinking about anything

15:22

even further, when chinese miners were asked about blocksize it was "we dunno, it should be up to core devs, they know what is best"

15:22

Or it can be viewed in terms of WoT, random guy off the street has no trust from bitbet that he won't doublespend, bitbet has been holding the coins and thus has implicit trust from guy that he will get paid eventually

15:23

kakobrekla: iirc it is specifically mircea_popescu's position that not-this.

15:23

that is, that miners do not prb and are not affected by prbism.

15:23

he can correct me if this is not a valid summary, when he wakes up.

15:23

how do we say, "not enough lsd" is it ?

15:24

certainly i lack the lsd to process the sheer number of my-intel-told-me-so-and-you-will-take-it-on-faith-because-dirigible-and-fuckyou

15:24

aha.

15:24

PeterL: right, banks have a kind of wot when they deal with each other, quantified as collateral against credit exposure

15:27

PeterL re the solution i proposed shortly after the disaster, see footnote for explanation http://trilema.com/2016/the-greatly-anticipated-bitbet-sbbet-february-2016-statement/#footnote_3_65290

15:27

The greatly anticipated BitBet (S.BBET) February 2016 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1MiRvWO )

15:28

kakobrekla: my current understanding, based not only on this incident but others, is that he has pretty good (world class?) humint, but atrocious sigint

15:28

and, like most folks direly missing a tool, come to believe that 'i don't need screwdriver, hammer's claw in expert hands is always just as good or better'

15:29

and yes, i fully grasp why he loathes to deal with the sort of folks who do sigint.

15:29

i have nfi how it works, and imho it actually matters for making sense of the observations. << the problem here is that complete transparency can not be achieved for practical reasons. if it could have been, have no doubt i would have preferred to this "under my seal" report avenue.

15:29

mircea_popescu: i believe it.

15:30

but i will note that the story ends up having some of the unpleasant flavour of the usg secret court trials with secret evidence, resultingly.

15:30

perhaps unavoidably. but it does.

15:31

asciilifeform> mircea_popescu described the high-S thing as noncontroversial << wasn't that the other one ?

15:31

mircea_popescu: it melded into one in your head with the DER encoding thing.

15:31

asciilifeform> which is, to define 'being paid in btc' as 'be shown a valid tx that pays you' << o no fucking way jesus christ.

15:31

this is horrible.

15:31

(and not only mircea_popescu , but i think many folks swallowed them in one pill)

15:32

mircea_popescu: it is horrible ! but was the pill suggested in the trilema bbet article.

15:32

asciilifeform> this is the historic norm, when there was no blockchain, only stone knives and bearskins. << yeah, and guess why.

15:32

it is not a replacement for working bitcoin. but a pill to wake folks up to the fact of the broken one.

15:33

so that wrath can fall on the correct heads.

15:33

aha

15:34

asciilifeform> << just how deeply in the red ~was~ bbet, if we consider this ..? << i dunno man, how much for a night with my slave of your choice ? for me she'll do it for free, you she will not even consider. and this speaks to phf's and other's q as to why assets weren't on the books since they can be trivially enumerated : yes they can be ; but they can't be VALUED. what's the accounting value of bitbet codebase ?

15:34

or in more at-home terms, what exactly am i going to put phuctor into the s.nsa books as ?

15:34

anyway, you cant really make the horse drink water

15:34

obviously enumerable, impossible to evaluate. and incidentally - how many fucking weekedns omfg!

15:35

mircea_popescu: my offer to actually pay what that thing costs, stands.

15:35

solrodar> they chose not to charge it to the company, therefore it didn't count << this is correct. but he's welcome to consider counterfactuals also. just - shouldn't expect me to present factuals for counterfactuals, should write his own story himself!

15:35

"it was in the red whatever asciilifeform would take to babysit 4 years of bitbet and resolve 1.2k bets."

15:35

now, i cannot pay what these fine massages from mircea_popescu costs. but if he were not fond of giving them for free, i would have to forgo the massages.

15:36

and do consider that rarely do you see one that doesn't run into this sort of thing : http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-03-2016#1424398 ; http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=12-03-2016#1431058 ETC

15:36

Logged on 07-03-2016 03:18:27; mircea_popescu: in more practical news - jurov here's one for you. https://bitbet.us/bet/1247/parties-smer-sd-and-sns-to-win-supermajority-in/ is to be resolved. problem is the res source gives vote % and not a word re seats, and the bet is re seats.

15:36

Logged on 12-03-2016 03:45:55; mircea_popescu: there's a graph, it doesn't touch 1bn.

15:37

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44250 @ 0.00042716 = 18.9018 BTC [-]

15:37

asciilifeform your offer to pay what the thing costs is going to cost us A FUCKING FORTUNE down the road. you understand this ?

15:37

stop adding indiscipline to the fucking pile.

15:38

it's neither becoming of your other talents nor any kind of service to the republic.

15:38

mmok

15:38

ftr i didn't raise that as a question, i was clarifying how things are for myself and others.

15:39

no problem.

15:40

i think it's entirely normal for tmsr operation to not have a bedrock, since we've just spent a year exploring just how rotten bedrock is. hosting, "personal affairs", linguistic and architectural choices, what have you.

15:41

*"year"

15:42

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 104870 @ 0.00042765 = 44.8477 BTC [+] {2}

15:44

anyway, ima go indulge in sins of the flesh. bbl.

15:53

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 94145 @ 0.00042716 = 40.215 BTC [-] {2}

15:59

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 97433 @ 0.00042665 = 41.5698 BTC [-] {5}

16:08

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28962 @ 0.00042657 = 12.3543 BTC [-] {2}

16:13

mircea_popescu: it does show seats, but in some HTML5 presentation

16:16

https://volbysr.sk/en/data03.html damn the thing stopped working

16:16

The Election to the National Council of the Slovak Republic 2016 - Final Results ... ( http://bit.ly/1QSD2F5 )

16:17

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_parliamentary_election,_2016#Results you can use this, for example

16:17

Slovak parliamentary election, 2016 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1QSDaEI )

16:29

from today's log i have learned that it's important to report *all* expenses, otherwise the "did this or that for free" arguments become another nail in the coffin

16:30

deficits go only so far

16:31

jurov: the discussion reminds me of those divorces where the husband/wife end up throwing post-facto 'expenses' at each other for who took out the trash etc

16:33

what? the discussion was started by me, to clarify my own understanding, at no point did either side threw expenses at each other. are we even reading same log?

16:33

phf: they never quite got to this point

16:33

yes it was not explicit

16:33

the bbet divorce, as i understand, stopped quite deliberately short of this

16:33

amicable separation, if you will.

16:34

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24238 @ 0.00042584 = 10.3215 BTC [-]

16:35

and also if the "trash disposal" fees were acknowledged, bitbet's precarious financials would be talked about and resolved much sooner

16:35

jurov: but what if the wife had charged market rate for the sexx!111

16:35

would there even have been a marriage to divorce from ?

16:36

asciilifeform: i don't see anything like that in this case

16:37

it's not about "who took out the trash" but about "who paid the garbage man"

16:37

jurov: well, we have http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432495 and http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432662

16:37

Logged on 14-03-2016 18:23:03; mircea_popescu: solrodar mno. you may not realise this, but bitbet has to date clocked close to 2k hours of admin time. and this is pointedly not minimum wage sort of work.

16:37

Logged on 14-03-2016 19:34:02; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> << just how deeply in the red ~was~ bbet, if we consider this ..? << i dunno man, how much for a night with my slave of your choice ? for me she'll do it for free, you she will not even consider. and this speaks to phf's and other's q as to why assets weren't on the books since they can be trivially enumerated : yes they can be ; but they can't be VALUED. what's the accounting value of

16:37

that is, as i understand, mircea_popescu's 'bbet consumed megatonnes of grade-A mptronium which i supplied at no cost, and now people expect be to also put in coin for phree?!'

16:39

*me

16:39

that was an answer to a solrodar's intentionally pointed question about costs of hosting vs. mp's "time", which was in term prompted by my attempt to understand how bitbet works

16:39

because http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432489

16:39

Logged on 14-03-2016 18:21:42; mircea_popescu: the latter part come at an end at some point last year, when he asked to have it included in the cost structure. i pointed out to him then that if i correspondingly add my expenses in, we might as well close it.

16:40

yes, i understand it too. i only don't understand the "can't be valued" part.

16:40

if it was one-time development paid from the IPO, then fine

16:41

but the maintenance on ongoing basis, needs a prolly a better agreement

16:43

jurov: do you recall that thread where i asked mircea_popescu to tally up what, e.g., 'v' was worth to him, in money ?

16:43

he - correctly - said that i may as well be smoking crack

16:44

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46209 @ 0.00042728 = 19.7442 BTC [-]

16:44

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=12-09-2015#1271492 << mega-obligatory-naggum

16:44

Logged on 12-09-2015 18:04:11; asciilifeform: 'All of this "code sharing" is an economic surplus phenomenon. It works only when none of the people involved in it are in any form of need. As soon as the need arises, a lot of people discover that it has cost them real money to work for the community and they reap very little benefit from it, because they are sharing value-less services and getting value out of something that people take for grant

16:44

you see 'v' is exactly the one-time thing. time spent by resolving bets, managing the wallet and such is much easier to quantify

16:45

jurov: but neither was a work-for-hire cash'n'carry thing

16:45

which is the point

16:45

you can't price a thing that cannot be in any practical way traded

16:45

^

16:45

just like it is meaningless to discuss the weight of a planet

16:45

not just "cannot" but more specifically "has never been"

16:45

has not because cannot.

16:46

categorically.

16:47

there's nothing that precludes a market of v implementations categorically

16:47

trinque: that was pointedly NOT the subject

16:47

the subject was the ORIGINAL.

16:47

specifically.

16:47

see thread.

16:48

I was there for the original thread.

16:48

then see again.

16:48

well, that "someone" whose work "cannot be traded" still has to eat

16:48

where does that come from?

16:48

jurov: not in mircea_popescu's planet !

16:48

asciilifeform: your time lacks a price because nobody bought it

16:48

there it comes from the 10,001 koku of rice a true man collects from his serfs

16:48

or somethinglikethat

16:48

it is not categorically impossible to buy your time

16:48

there's an utter lack of compartmentalization going on here. the way bitbet is structured is explicit in the contract. only aspect of the operation that's under consideration is "recieve bets, take percentage, pay out", because that's all that shareholders are party to. everything else is between kako and mp and that aspect worked for them. at no point was this arrangement publicly ~questioned~ by any party involved. i spelled it out in

16:48

the logs, some people had a conversation about it, that is all.

16:48

but shout some more about the infinite value of yourself

16:49

trinque: it was more of 0 than an inf

16:49

see thread.

16:49

i think mircea_popescu was the one with the +inf.

16:50

trinque: and it is not impossible to buy my time, just that it is not ~practical~ for anyone i consider worthwhile. because it is sold only in very large parcels, and is not cheap. but this is beside the point.

16:51

phf indeed, assigning the 17btc to shareholders is failure of the compartmentalization

16:51

it is entirely my point that it is a question of practicality and not categorical unpossibleness

16:51

trinque: the thread concerned an invention, rather than a certain amount of my time.

16:51

'v' did not actually take very long to write.

16:51

but then you also do not get another thing of similar interest by buying x hours of asciilifeform .

16:52

jurov: that's a pointless rim shot, that is representative of the level of discourse so far.

16:52

sounds rather like prospecting; you may find nothing, may find something immensely valuable

16:52

phf, so my conclusion that such compartmentalization is prone to problems, wouls be pointless rimshot too?

16:53

trinque: the actual market value of my prospecting is, empirically, ~0.

16:53

jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432304 is what i said about the 17btc question

16:53

Logged on 14-03-2016 16:33:32; phf: i think this question is receiving far less attention then the alleged miner collusion. i would've liked to see it approached through a judge (perhaps moon is a harsh mistress style "would you be our judge?"), a carefully constructed paper, an investigation, rather than bickering in logs. i think the question is also separate from receivership and is about ensuring that the rest of tmsr maintain a shared vision

16:53

so either trinque has to accept that v is demonstrably worthless, or to buy into mircea_popescu's 'non-quantifiable' category, or the like.

16:55

jurov: 17 btc issue is possibly covered by agreement, possibly not, requires investigation. question of who was paying for server is irrelevant to the ~issue~, not even mentioned anywhere in corporate paperwork, and also produced zero issues so far that were publicly discussed

16:55

phf but how can the judge decide without precedent? was the problem of appropriate expenses for zerofee corporations put into law or any such test?

16:56

do 0asset corps even exist in meatspace ?

16:56

where ?

16:58

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 283400 @ 0.00042682 = 120.9608 BTC [-] {4}

16:59

jurov: that second question is a lot more relevant to the issue then a lot of things that's been said so far

17:00

jurov: but overall, all that is for us to figure out, yeah? the "judge" in this case is one of our peers, can look at what transpired, present an opinion, "it is the opinion of this judged, having considered all facts available, that mp done goofed". mp can go "well fuck you judge", you can go "that's a fair assessment", negrate mp and move on

17:01

for me that question boils down to judge deciding if mircea_popescu acted in good faith or not acc. to agreement.. which is likely not a good thing

17:01

for one person to decide centrally

17:01

jurov: there's no "centrally"

17:02

jurov: i suspect that if you were to suggest to mircea_popescu that a group of lordz could, or ought to, make a collective decision, he would break out in hives and barf

17:02

instead the solution is what? to spend a bunch more days repeating same positions over and over again until you leave in disgust, people who are already on the mp side are galvanized, etc.?

17:03

but i already did that short of negrating him, why would i need a judge?

17:03

phf: sadly this is prolly how it will go. at least no mexican ice pick is yet involved.

17:04

phf also judge will prevent the discussion how?

17:04

cmon, i genuinely want to learn what are you onto

17:06

i'm a slow thinker, so i'm taking my time

17:07

*

mats dips chicken tender into bbq sauce

17:08

!b 3

17:08

Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/36RHJM0.txt )

17:09

while bitbet is frozen, there's not going to be any end to the discussion, i am afraid.

17:10

phf, maybe if you apply for the receiver and do it ;)

17:13

also it is not clear to me what the folks in the dispute actuall want.

17:14

a restarted bbet ?

17:14

for mircea_popescu to admit that he elbowed a button and crashed the tank ?

17:14

(let's say he does - what good does this do ?)

17:15

*

BingoBoingo may be up for continuing to bet on a restarted BBET depending on who acquires it

17:16

*

BingoBoingo though is unlikely to on his own carry a BitBet on his Betting volume

17:16

BingoBoingo: one of the problems is that apparently it was already not being carried.

17:16

yes

17:16

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58500 @ 0.00042572 = 24.9046 BTC [-] {2}

17:17

given as it was structured in such a way that ANY unexpected ding would destroy it utterly unless carried by that month's profit.

17:17

i did want bbet restarted, but since today i realized the "can't be valued" part, this is not feasible

17:17

so, best to wind it down

17:17

jurov: this is one of the caveats of the business-cum-guerilla-warfare-battalion animal

17:18

Who knows, maybe after reciever cuts it up Betmoose would be willing to buy parts and carry it as the sort of reddit betting thing they've been somehow floating for a while. I don't know if I would bet there, but seems like possible buyer for domain/software.

17:18

a very heavy dose of can't-be-valued

17:18

but if you stick solely to can-be-valueds, you end up selling pies in the street.

17:18

BingoBoingo: anything can be sold to scammers/spammers.

17:19

but why would you touch it after that !

17:19

asciilifeform: one ought to try to value everything. otherwise end up looking hungry to these pies

17:19

bitbet was not basic research peroject, but a business

17:20

asciilifeform: And that is the problem. Selling to nobies may be the right move to recover stakeholder value, but makes post-sale venture unattractive.

17:20

BingoBoingo: unattractive is a bit of an understatement.

17:20

utterly radioactive.

17:20

i won't bet so much as a satoshi at a betmoose or fairlay or whatever other wotless wild derpery.

17:20

ever.

17:21

just like i won't fuck a hole in a rusty truck on some godforsaken junkyard lot.

17:21

it is a ludicrous very idea.

17:21

bbet was ~the~ bet machine, as far as i'm concerned, fwiw, and now there is none.

17:23

but that boils down exactly to it -- when the new owner goes to assing more value to reddit crowds than b-a wot

17:23

*assign

17:23

i suspect that mircea_popescu would rather burn it than let it go to hitler.

17:23

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17165 @ 0.00042894 = 7.3628 BTC [+] {2}

17:24

though i have nfi, you'd have to ask him, to be sure.

17:25

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57950 @ 0.00042558 = 24.6624 BTC [-] {5}

17:25

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432804 << this is one of those 3rd rails. there is ~no money actually circulating in the tmsr castle walls.

17:25

Logged on 14-03-2016 21:19:16; jurov: asciilifeform: one ought to try to value everything. otherwise end up looking hungry to these pies

17:25

and you know that how?

17:25

because we're all, you see, lordz, and these don't stoop to ever actually paying for anything, they promise one another kokus of rice per year from their serfs if it must come down to it.

17:26

jurov: you're right, there's not much that can be done as far as bickering. i find some of the positions rather petty or outright alarmist, but i can't keep people from talking. i'm only thinking that an arbitration procedure could produce tldr that at the very least will focus the attention.

17:26

jurov: very clearly i do not know it for certain, but inferring from the bbet event.

17:26

and from the overall ill health of bbet

17:29

alternatively, there is something but bitbet failed to extract

17:30

so who then extracted ?

17:30

mpoe, trading solely with itself ?!

17:30

i managed to get some crumbs

17:31

but otherwise, that's open question for me, too.

17:32

i guess this is none of our stinking serf business eh

17:32

who the ~real~ lordz trade with

17:35

but i will point out, i see this entire story (the bbet meltdown) though 'shoemaker' eyes, and i never had any idea, whether jurov and kako were part of mircea_popescu's actual inner circle, i.e. folks who actually move serious coin around, privy to how mpb works, physically met his intelligence agents, etc. or not.

17:36

i don't generally ask such questions because i am not dumb enough to expect answer.

17:37

lol i should expect this.

17:38

kakobrekla: should we reveal meta-bitcoin-assets?

17:38

though i admit that i always thought meta-assets consisted wholly (other than mp) of pretty gurlz

17:39

Rest assured he keeps his doings tight, no idea about the girls.

17:41

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432588 <<< why is that ?

17:41

Logged on 14-03-2016 19:09:28; asciilifeform: it ought not to have been possible for the miners to agree on this.

17:42

but more to earth, what i meant was the set of 'high-powered types' he hangs out with when he is not, in his own words, 'tending the daycare'

17:42

fwiw since january 2013 bitbet had ~~301.214btc profit

17:42

mircea_popescu has on some occasions mentioned actually having phriends in meatspace.

17:44

anyway my original point was that much of what we think of as 'tmsr economy' is not actually tmsr in any reasonable sense of the word, in that it is not effected by folks having a wot presence, nor does it even have so much as iceberg tip in the public forum.

17:44

fwiw.

17:44

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432596 <<< and how'd that work? "let's mine these high-s fee-paying txn, and subsequently get ignored by everyone else?"

17:44

Logged on 14-03-2016 19:10:37; asciilifeform: the failure of such a miner to exist is a game-theoretical smoking gun.

17:44

but rather consists of titanic numbers moving on mpex.

17:45

this bothered me in 2013 ( http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1108 ) but does not bother me today, largely because my giving-a-shit muscle wore out.

17:45

Loper OS » A Review of MPEx, the Bitcoin Stock Exchange. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Mj4Xdf )

17:46

and because i consider it possible for tmsr to develop into something like a planetoid economy.

17:46

but this is a future thing.

17:47

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432847 << you just described a cartel, davout .

17:47

Logged on 14-03-2016 21:44:51; davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432596 <<< and how'd that work? "let's mine these high-s fee-paying txn, and subsequently get ignored by everyone else?"

17:47

the 'everyone else' who 'will ignore'

17:47

is what, exactly ?

17:47

so zero assets is obviously an oversight, stakeholders were riding that one comfortably until the first snafu

17:47

phf: from rereading the logz, seems like mircea_popescu admits this, even.

17:48

right

17:50

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56689 @ 0.00042637 = 24.1705 BTC [+] {2}

17:53

http://glyf.org/tmp/bbet.png, there's an insignificant downward trend, but payouts are consistent despite bitcoin fluctuations

17:53

404 Not Found ... ( http://bit.ly/1Mj5Br5 )

17:56

phf well.. such magnitude of payouts is fine for coinbr where i'm alone.. not for 2 owners, shareholders, referees,...

18:01

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 140155 @ 0.00042675 = 59.8111 BTC [+]

18:02

https://archive.is/euihl

18:02

Reject the Ham = All Hell breaks loose : fatpeoplestories ... ( http://bit.ly/1Mj6dNA )

18:02

!up humanoidity

18:04

bingo : Thx

18:06

would anyone be kind enough to point to a summary of the concerns with bitbet.us ?

18:07

humanoidity: have you seen http://trilema.com/2016/the-greatly-anticipated-bitbet-sbbet-february-2016-statement/?

18:07

The greatly anticipated BitBet (S.BBET) February 2016 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1LamWrs )

18:07

jurov: i wonder if there are referees besides kako and mp. owners got at least 75btc each plus sales of shares, plus payouts from unsold shares.

18:07

humanoidity: At this point everyone really just has to go through the whole thing and excercise summarizing it for themselves

18:08

jurov : reading now. thx for pointer.

18:08

Bingo: ack

18:09

so about $25 a bet pardon my fiat, ignoring hosting

18:11

phf so you think it can go on this way, like, another 3 years?

18:11

is that a serious question?

18:13

why not? is $25 a bet before expenses worth it?

18:14

and this $25 goes to whom? all owners together?

18:14

no that's $25 to one owner

18:18

and i have no idea, and i think that's the problem ascii runs into a lot too, my hour, when paid in fiat, is more expensive by a margin. but my work on various tmsr ventures is unpaid, so a bitcoin operation, that's funneling bitcoins at a steady pace?

18:19

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82000 @ 0.00042592 = 34.9254 BTC [-] {4}

18:22

but as an advertisement platform for mpex and steady stream of income for investors i don't see ~anything~ wrong with bitbet. my current interpretation is that a lot of various people overreacted and a sure thing was killed.

18:22

in any case, thanks for the analysis. you're welcome to put it together as qntra post-mortem, and hopefully get more than $25

18:22

Is the 17 BTC the operational for this month, or is it the cash balance for the whole thing ?

18:23

humanoidity: neither

18:24

humanoidity: way things stood before bankruptcy, 17btc is what the shareholders would have had to eat for the next n months before getting profits again

18:24

Also, I'd be interested to know how much bet money is currently parked at bitbet, and how safe these are

18:24

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432885

18:24

Logged on 14-03-2016 22:22:18; phf: but as an advertisement platform for mpex and steady stream of income for investors i don't see ~anything~ wrong with bitbet. my current interpretation is that a lot of various people overreacted and a sure thing was killed.

18:25

humanoidity: this is tbd

18:25

phf : thx for explanation, this answers my question.

18:25

they *are* safe but subject to liquidation, about which i have no idea

18:26

jurov: Understood. But it also means payout for resolved bets are frozen, I guess. :(

18:26

humanoidity: safety interpretation is between you and your counterparties. 750.4btc, as of right now all in their corresponding addresses

18:27

phf : gotcha. So there's quite a bit of cash parked in there atm, and 17btc doesn't look like at huge amount to build back. Why on earth was mp's loan offer rejected ?

18:28

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28150 @ 0.00042462 = 11.9531 BTC [-] {4}

18:28

humanoidity: where do you see a loan?

18:28

it was presented as business expense to be carried by shareholders' future profits

18:30

jurov: I read "Nevertheless, I am floating its negative cash balance free of charge, with a view of being defrayed from future profits.". I may not be using the accurate terminology here, but it sounds like a loan.

18:32

ok, i misunderstaood you

18:33

!up humanoidity

18:38

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79052 @ 0.00042317 = 33.4524 BTC [-] {4}

18:38

so taking out outliers, shareholders would've had to eat it for about 5 months; question is, would've bitbet lasted that long, in which case pitchforking just cost shareholders profits

18:39

phf: so zero assets is obviously an oversight << since corporation doesn't hold any cash outside of "day to day operations" and all profit is distributed, dealing with credit is tricky. what if company needs to buy a foo-machine but is too expensive to book as a one time expense?

18:40

does company get lent credit and just book the bill as an expense? it's probably justifiable if done in a way where shareholders still get to see ~some~ profit monthly, but company doesn't go bankrupt paying of credit.

18:44

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45300 @ 0.0004228 = 19.1528 BTC [-] {2}

18:45

In happier news https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cc5WMCzXIAQxsfM.jpg

18:45

... ( http://bit.ly/1UccOkl )

18:46

lul wut

18:48

The Bahamas daughter has an ass

18:49

thestringpuller: there's a precedent. an mpif credit was extended june 2014 and no dividends paid until credit was payed off july and august.

18:51

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432883 << hour's pay in fiat is also stuck feeding obamitler, shameekas, lockheeds, and jamie dimon.

18:51

Logged on 14-03-2016 22:18:12; phf: and i have no idea, and i think that's the problem ascii runs into a lot too, my hour, when paid in fiat, is more expensive by a margin. but my work on various tmsr ventures is unpaid, so a bitcoin operation, that's funneling bitcoins at a steady pace?

18:51

at how stable bitbet is with an occasional massive positive spike), unless, it's, like, a credit to buy an office in san francisco and pitch second round, who cares?

18:52

and the dime left from the dollar, feeds you.

18:52

this is what usaschwitz means.

18:53

Well this is why alfs are stuck in alf ghettos instead of regions where they'd have the possibility of surplus income.

18:53

BingoBoingo: where would this possibility come from ?

18:54

in cheapo regions, labourer is paid proportionately less.

18:54

being a labourer sucks slightly less, or slightly more, between regions, but it sucks fundamentally for entirely fundamental reasons.

18:55

asciilifeform: It depends, but some less rebelious servile professions get pay that is more geographically flat. See Medical folk et al...

18:55

But so long as alf doesn't get to telecommute from Ohio, everything to rent bezzle

18:55

BingoBoingo: most of'em squeeze out a fairly pathetic existence if you count pay PER HOUR OF ACTUAL SWEAT

18:57

the pay of labourers is parasitized disproportionately by usg et al for the same reason wolf in the forest is covered in ticks

18:58

he elementarily does not have the power to remove them.

18:58

a mircea_popescu - can remove the ticks.

18:58

from own back.

18:58

in fact, does not even consider ticks as a thing, except when specially sitting down to think about it

18:58

I thought a mircea_popescu had gurlz to do that.

18:59

a wolf, by and large, cannot even conceptualize the ticks

18:59

just knows, i suspect, that he itches, but not why

18:59

TIL msft's proprietary disasm lib incudes a superh disasm, assembler

18:59

mats: superb how

18:59

crashed only 1 time in 10, vs other microshits ? or what

18:59

asciilifeform: 'SuperH'

19:00

mats: ah

19:00

l0l!

19:00

best misread ever

19:00

but this is not surprise, mats, a buncha 'pocket pc' items circa early 2000s ran on superH

19:00

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432809 < you will feel warm and fuzzy inside if no receiver is found in time?

19:00

Logged on 14-03-2016 21:20:43; asciilifeform: i won't bet so much as a satoshi at a betmoose or fairlay or whatever other wotless wild derpery.

19:00

asciilifeform: but windows has never run on it

19:00

mats: sure did

19:00

winblowz ce.

19:00

ran.

19:00

i even have, in my collection, such a thing.

19:00

news to me.

19:01

mats: hp 'jornada' series.

19:01

http://www.obsolete-tears.com/photos/HP-Jordana-540-series-ecran.jpg << here's one.

19:01

... ( http://bit.ly/1YT3OjR )

19:01

kakobrekla: for the sake of the newcomers here ... can you expand on why mp's 17BTC offer wasn't acceptable ?

19:02

whats next, he loses 170 btc next month and make bbet pay for it too?

19:03

kakobrekal: Ah, I guess the implied message is that you believe mp's to be at fault for the double payout ?

19:03

!up humanoidity

19:04

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-03-2016#1420300, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-03-2016#1420304 ....

19:04

Logged on 02-03-2016 17:15:50; mircea_popescu: kakobrekla yes, by the time the 4th txn trying to pay out bitbet vanished without a trace, i was sort-of expecting it.

19:04

Logged on 02-03-2016 17:17:04; mircea_popescu: i'm a masochist like that.

19:05

kakobrekla: thx for context, this explains quite a bit, and I'm starting to understand what is making this situation sticky

19:07

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432943 << i will feel nothing, it isn't my toy that was broken, nor was i involved in any way in its breakage afaik

19:07

Logged on 14-03-2016 23:00:27; kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432809 < you will feel warm and fuzzy inside if no receiver is found in time?

19:08

i have 2 bits of emotion kakobrekla

19:08

3 on a good day.

19:08

asciilifeform you took a side in alphago bet, neh?

19:08

5 on human

19:08

as announced the day of

19:09

ah, so its a loss-loss for you.

19:09

aha

19:09

lucky you!

19:09

i lost this one pretty solidly

19:09

l0l

19:09

my biggest spend of coin to date !111

19:09

i think c3 was actually cheaper

19:10

wait, i thought that most likely now ascii just gets his coin back?

19:10

nope

19:10

why would i get it back.

19:10

it still can theoretically

19:10

i lost it fair & square (afaik)

19:10

kakobrekla: not really, game was 3 of 5

19:10

unless someone can actually ~prove~ google malfeasance, the bet resolves to a machine win

19:11

its up to receiver to resolve the bets that can be resolved or plain refund all that is possible

19:11

^

19:11

it would seem like that one can be resolved in the entirely ordinary way

19:11

but whatdoiknow.

19:11

kakobrekla: is there a path forward to unjam things for bitbet at this point ? I'm not I am fully groking this "receiver" business

19:11

anyway ftr if it would be solely up to me, this mess would have been resolved in a few days tops.

19:12

humanoidity no.

19:12

kakobrekla: in a way i 'skipped school', did not lose coin in any of the major catastrophes of the dark ages

19:12

(largely because i had none)

19:13

darn

19:14

I like this site a lot. Sorta sad to see it go pear-shaped for what seems like a fairly simple governance problem.

19:14

i liked it too.

19:14

it ~WORKED~

19:15

Also, I'm thinking ... 17/240 is 0.0229 which ain't much.

19:16

240?

19:16

Sorry, 17/740 = 0.0229

19:18

humanoidity: you're probably thinking 750, and that's outstanding bets, that's not directly related to bitbet assets

19:20

Yeah, 750. But what I mean is that spreading that 17BTC loss over the 740BTC outstanding bets might be a way out. The only liability will be the site's rep, and the damage won't be irreparable looks like

19:21

humanoidity: if you have good wot standing with kakobrekla and mircea, you can apply for receiver and do it

19:21

Whereas 750BTC of outstanding bets evaporating might upset folks a lot.

19:22

or convince someone to do it

19:22

jurov: first time on irc, don't even know what 'wot' is :)

19:22

http://wiki.bitcoin-assets.com/first_steps_in_bitcoin-assets

19:22

first_steps_in_bitcoin-assets [bitcoin assets wiki] ... ( http://bit.ly/1J73Z7o )

19:23

wot = web of trust

19:23

got it, thx. will read the noob page now :)

19:24

if you know someone in here http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/ you can ask them for help

19:24

WoT Overview - Btc Alpha ... ( http://bit.ly/231wU3S )

19:24

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22200 @ 0.00042417 = 9.4166 BTC [+]

19:25

anyway imho it would be best for everyone for this mess to be cleared by me and mp - however while im making myself available in full capacity it seems to me mp is unwilling

19:28

kakobrekla: several people asked of your coherent statement, did you at least say you're willing to work with the receiver?

19:29

yes its somewhere in the log

19:29

kakobrekla: from a newcomer's pov, you guys seem to be fairly upset with one another, which - given what you built together is imo makes this impasse a bit of a waste

19:30

jurov more specifically http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432278

19:30

Logged on 14-03-2016 16:20:43; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432065 << if you wish to help the receiver along through donating all/part of the work in a publicly verifiable manner, that is your privilege and i am sure will be appreciated by the beneficiaries who they may be.

19:32

kakobrekla : have you guys explored selling more bitbet shares ? Might be another way to recover those 17BTC, diluting shareholder value a little. And then let bygone etc... and focus on making sure the payout problem can't happen again.

19:33

humanoidity: the contract explicitly forbids dilution

19:34

!up humanoidity

19:34

technical solution to the problem is coded but i dont think it will ever be used. for other solutions - it seems the ship has sailed

19:35

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20900 @ 0.00042584 = 8.9001 BTC [+] {2}

19:35

i take it the issue is not "where" the money comes from (because there's a valid existing venue that worked in the past for this particular usecase), the issue is that of trust, i.e. kako doesn't trust mp for future bitbet operations

19:36

jurov: ah, yes, the pgp signed contracts which can't ever be renegociated when external circumstances change. I hadn't realized that.

19:36

they can be renegotiated, if there was mutual will

19:36

phf: I see. Hence the "receiver" bizness. Sounds like a marriage counselor is what is needed here :)

19:38

phf you cant have responsibility without liability; no skin in the game - no game. if nothing else, it creates a set of bad incentives. this is how fiat world works and we collectively despise that.

19:41

if bankers are not punished by reality you can end up with the world blowing up

19:41

right, so you're saying mp should've eaten the cost to prevent that sort of issues in the future

19:42

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60050 @ 0.00042674 = 25.6257 BTC [+] {2}

19:42

kakobrekla: what would you consider to be a fair outcome in this quagmire ?

19:42

eating the cost may not guarantee it happening in the future (the technical solution i made was suppose to do that) but it sure would help

19:42

not happening*

19:45

kakobrekla: on the technical issue that bit you guys (re-issuing a tx multiple times IIUC), and the conspiracy theories it spawned, I am wondering if you guys raised the issue with the devs to see if they reach the same conclusion ?

19:45

you dont need devs for that.

19:48

kakobrekla: didn't imply you needed them, but getting other knowledgeable folks' opinion on a particular situation doesn't strike me as unreasonable.

19:49

Moreover, what bit you here might bite others.

19:49

humanoidity: it was discussed on qntra, even some devs joined

19:50

humanoidity: best if you read last week logs to not repeat everything

19:50

ack

19:50

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41321 @ 0.00042584 = 17.5961 BTC [-]

19:59

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43329 @ 0.00042584 = 18.4512 BTC [-]

20:00

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45813 @ 0.00042487 = 19.4646 BTC [-] {2}

20:04

!up humanoidity

20:17

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432692 << this is actually very true.

20:17

Logged on 14-03-2016 20:29:33; jurov: from today's log i have learned that it's important to report *all* expenses, otherwise the "did this or that for free" arguments become another nail in the coffin

20:18

asciilifeform> phf: they never quite got to this point << i dun think this was the case either intended or implied.

20:18

obviously anyone reading is free to color what they read any way that suits them, but still.

20:22

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432701 << the big problem here is that in a nascent economy (and please remember that bitbet was born in 2012, not in 2015, and its primary function at the time was stuff like http://trilema.com/2013/the-positive-market-effects-of-the-delivery-bet/ ie help clear up an entirely INSANE space, which it did admirably well and which nobody credits today because hey, fuck us, n

20:22

Logged on 14-03-2016 20:35:13; jurov: and also if the "trash disposal" fees were acknowledged, bitbet's precarious financials would be talked about and resolved much sooner

20:22

The positive market effects of the delivery bet. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1KzV3mo )

20:22

obody's thanking anyone for giving up his spleen to MAKE UP the ground on which he walks - it's just ground, a given, forget about it) you want to credit rather than charge, so as to give things a chance.

20:23

but yes, if you're curious, the reason i might blast at you when you go into a patented jurov tailspin while i'm simply bitchslapping him into oblivion is that you WERE here then, and your spleen is actually part of that same ground. and yes these things matter, at least to me.

20:23

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93000 @ 0.00042675 = 39.6878 BTC [+]

20:26

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432703 << i'm pretty sure there would have been, yes.

20:26

Logged on 14-03-2016 20:35:40; asciilifeform: would there even have been a marriage to divorce from ?

20:27

this is the same kakobrekla, you recall, who went on a trip to check out a hungarian asicminer on a day's notice, also in these very logs. the sort of rationality of old people is not particularly relevant to the young - and same is true of bitcoin.

20:27

apparently you intended bitbet as a tool to establish The Order in bitcoin, while kakobrekla unawares thought it's usual business

20:27

possibly.

20:28

it is eminently difficult to reconstruct what people thought years ago ; famously - one can't actually do this for oneself, which is how proust got to be famous.

20:39

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432711 << i dunno why people figure i do all sorts of things myself, not that the idea isn't flattering. but no, i'm no shiva.

20:39

Logged on 14-03-2016 20:39:47; phf: that was an answer to a solrodar's intentionally pointed question about costs of hosting vs. mp's "time", which was in term prompted by my attempt to understand how bitbet works

20:44

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432731 << this idea seems good in theory. in practice, this is exactly never happening. easier to understand why not, is to understand why there IS something categorically preventing a market in women ; like a supermarket where you go buy one. the ones that are above average have no incentive to participate - see the discussion about lemon laws and the death spiral except

20:44

Logged on 14-03-2016 20:47:25; trinque: there's nothing that precludes a market of v implementations categorically

20:44

in reverse.

20:45

which is why the only time a market in women exists is when it's maintained by significant outside force.

20:45

the interests of that force will never align with your naive market theory, and so no, categorically, market in v's isn't happening.

20:47

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432738 << this is not generally true. even if it were true - it'd also be the essence of oppression. think well about how a world would look where hunger drives coding, for instance. i dunno if you've ever experienced the classical street urchin of central asia thing, but anyway.

20:47

Logged on 14-03-2016 20:48:11; jurov: well, that "someone" whose work "cannot be traded" still has to eat

20:48

or whatever, read the various bleeding heart reenaction about the fate of the proletarian in the pre-1900s.

20:48

"the jungle" and all that crud.

20:48

hi again

20:48

now that I see that kakobrekla has also agreed to liquidation, I am applying for the job of receiver

20:49

obviously I'm not well known enough to be trusted with the site funds, so I have a proposal

20:50

mircea_popescu would continue to hold them in trust, and agree to pay them out in accordance with my ajudication, unless that ajudication was rejected by (say) 10 people currently in assbot's L1

20:50

whatever else he's been accused of, nobody's called him a thief

20:50

i'm sure somebody somewhere has, why not. anyway : what do you plan to do to maximize shareholder revenue from bitbet assets ?

20:52

essentially what you suggested at http://trilema.com/2016/the-greatly-anticipated-bitbet-sbbet-february-2016-statement/#comment-116766 , with a few alterations

20:52

The greatly anticipated BitBet (S.BBET) February 2016 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1phuhuR )

20:52

do you have any sort of particular assets that'd likely help ? prior experience in doing this sort of thing (selling online properties) ? connections or otherwise some power putting you above others in some way ?

20:54

firstly, that I might deviate from the seniority indicated there

20:54

and secondly, that in the interests of settling this before the end of the year, I might choose to refund some bets rather than waiting for them all to resolve

20:55

i don't think you take my meaning. have you for instance ever auctioned a domain name successfully ? are you well known in those circles ? anything ?

20:55

I got your meaning, just catching up

20:55

the answer is no

20:55

a ok, go on.

20:56

well, what do you contemplate setting as a fee and what sort of time interval do you see this taking roguhly speaking ?

20:57

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17800 @ 0.00042487 = 7.5627 BTC [-] {2}

20:58

I would also provide a third-party verification that in my judgment the codebase for sale is complete and working

20:58

for complete closure, 10 BTC, 2 months

20:58

ok, but in order for such a seal of approval to be worth something, you'd have to be known by someone neh ?

20:59

asciilifeform inspected my previous work

21:00

well good, but i don't think he's buying. at any rate, so what do you plan to do to actually get cash out of the goods ? list them for sale somewhere ? simply run an auction here ? details help.

21:00

a marketing plan's always a good idea.

21:02

I haven't sold anything of this nature before, but I have managed a number of domain names including one I bought at auction

21:02

so I am familar with that field

21:03

I think an external auction would provide the best price for the domain name

21:03

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432744 << this is a complicated proposition. the traditional avenue of the dedicated tramp is to join a group, liberally fuck anyone but the alpha of that group, insist that the alpha marry her. this presses a very strict choice on the alpha that's not trivially resolved - if he kills her everyone else loses a fuckdoll ; if he marries her he's fucked, not only stuck with

21:03

Logged on 14-03-2016 20:48:47; trinque: it is not categorically impossible to buy your time

21:03

a wife but stuck with one that actually owns him. third options aren't really very easily accessible. so - no, don't make that assumption, it'll run you to ruin.

21:03

solrodar ok but run say where ?

21:04

for the codebase, potential buyers are likely to be fewer, so my initial thought would be to conduct the auction in #b-a with bidders solicited from forums likely to be interested

21:05

so you're going to try as a package first, then just the domain on a 2nd pass, and advertise this on forums - how many, which, do you have good standing accounts in any (which) or is this going to be just some drive-by spam thing ?

21:06

yes, as a package first

21:07

anyway - i appreciate your offer to help, and i don't think it can be summarily dismissed. it has its obvious weaknesses which you may consider improving.

21:07

my personal standing is irrelevant, as interested buyers are likely to already be familiar with the site

21:08

perhaps.

21:09

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432755 << how did that go, "yes half hour of my time and a lifetime of learning the trade" or somesuch.

21:09

Logged on 14-03-2016 20:51:39; asciilifeform: 'v' did not actually take very long to write.

21:09

the proceeds would be paid to you and added to the pool

21:10

I would suggest that the domain remains in kakobrekla's hands and temporarily pointed to an address under my control

21:11

i suppose the "what's the value of code" item is a very vague thing on the internet still huh.

21:11

much less than the value of a going concern with a reputation

21:11

which is why I think it's still in both of your best interests to sort this out between you

21:12

I liked bitbet, I'd be sorry to see it go

21:13

hey, i liked it too.

21:14

who was that guy anyway, famously told judge that "he can be born wherever he wants to!" ? painter, accused of passing off a "too shitty to be sold" painting, late us reverberation of the school wars.

21:14

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-03-2016#1433115 /me is also sad, removing ads :/

21:14

Logged on 15-03-2016 01:12:32; solrodar: I liked bitbet, I'd be sorry to see it go

21:21

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432761 << it's entirely unclear to me what you think this'd do. let's work an example. you sign up for one of those newfangled internet thingees. provider sells you it, you meet the girl of your dreams in australia, keep in daily email touch. provider hikes the rate. you... what, go to a judge, to order the provider to charge you less ? not something the judge can do - an

21:21

Logged on 14-03-2016 20:53:38; phf: jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432304 is what i said about the 17btc question

21:21

d if he tries, they'll disconnect your thing an hour a day. at which point what, you go to your congressman to sponsor a law making it illegal for provider to disconnect shitty users ? are we trying to rebuild the great nation of america or something ? would be cheaper to just go with the one extant.

21:22

a judge may decide what a contract means if there's dispute between the parties, which here is what the [judge] sindic aka receiver is going to do anyway. other than that - he can't order for "the world" to satisfy any party's perceived comfort, no matter how dressed up.

21:23

syndic*

21:25

i'm aware that they do these weird "can't throw X people off premises" in the us, but the excision of that sort of nonsense is no small part of what tmsr is all about.

21:27

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432770 << obviously anyone's free to use the wot as they please (and yes, lack of homogenity is still its only defense against immediate explosive doom) but i can't see myself negrating someone for not agreeing with someone else. seems rather rich.

21:27

Logged on 14-03-2016 21:00:41; phf: jurov: but overall, all that is for us to figure out, yeah? the "judge" in this case is one of our peers, can look at what transpired, present an opinion, "it is the opinion of this judged, having considered all facts available, that mp done goofed". mp can go "well fuck you judge", you can go "that's a fair assessment", negrate mp and move on

21:27

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30700 @ 0.00042549 = 13.0625 BTC [+]

21:29

what's next, you know, ima negrate trump for not voting kanish or w/e that ohio derp's name is.

21:33

(and since we're on it, this important point seems perhaps lost and is still paramount : "It is important to remember that the score associated to a relationship does not mark the direct trust of the scorer for the scoree, but merely the scorer's confidence that the information he has about scoree is correct, accurate, relevant and complete. All four." from the ever-fascinatingly counterintuitive http://trilema.com/201

21:33

Page not found on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1UcrIay )

21:33

4/what-the-wot-is-for-how-it-works-and-how-to-use-it/#footnote_4_53927 )

21:34

which is how and why chetty's passing bumped her trust in my eyes to 10 : not because she's "very good" now, but because she lacks any further capacity to surprise anyone. at least so goes the logic.

21:36

bbl, will keep an eye on the logs

21:37

*

adlai catches up on 6mo logs, should take Two Weeks(tm)(s)(r), give or take a halving~~

21:37

at least is better than waiting in traffic listening to dayradio.

21:41

The problem to selling in a way that maximally recoups value is my chief barrier to bidding. Hard problem I have little experience or connections to do.

21:41

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432774 << forget me. suppose tomorrow someone decides that you now like government cheese. what, this makes you ~like it~ ? government can have no such say, no matter how much you love lenin's own republic.

21:41

Logged on 14-03-2016 21:02:38; asciilifeform: jurov: i suspect that if you were to suggest to mircea_popescu that a group of lordz could, or ought to, make a collective decision, he would break out in hives and barf

21:41

BingoBoingo every day we discover another planet the republic must build eh ?

21:44

moreover, and more importantly, if you give over to the government the franchise to interpret private agreements, you provably construct a government even more far reaching than the welfare state, sitting in ~an equivalent position of the miner cartel but for contracts, and soon to issue "licenses to contract" or somesuch insanity.

21:45

mircea_popescu: Seriously. I have suspicions on how this could be done, but... given the necessary ugliness in this sort of brokering solrodar's bid seems awfully cheap.

21:45

(perhaps this is obivous to me only for some god-forsaken reason, but the next step after the view on the bitcoin protocol that it permits miners to arbitrarily reject txn and the collusion of miners is - you gotta get a license to bitcoinate. why hardfork to increase their revenue, even.)

21:46

(and this being future china, you'll be getting six addresses or somesuch, typed out on paper. with misprints.)

21:48

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432775 << sadly there is no safe, cheap and effectual substitute for actual life. all previous attempts to build this philosopher's stone (of which there's been no shortage) have come to grief.

21:48

Logged on 14-03-2016 21:02:48; phf: instead the solution is what? to spend a bunch more days repeating same positions over and over again until you leave in disgust, people who are already on the mp side are galvanized, etc.?

21:52

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432777 << and to think, in the worlds very capital of "murder for hire" even!

21:52

Logged on 14-03-2016 21:03:36; asciilifeform: phf: sadly this is prolly how it will go. at least no mexican ice pick is yet involved.

21:55

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432792 << perhaps the darkest voodoo involved in all of this, and one which i openly confess i struggled with for the entire interval and never managed to even comprehend let alone do a iota towards breaking was - that there seemed to be ~infinite ammount of bitcoin ready to COVER bets, but very little interest to fund them. somehow, for some reason, even with the strict

21:55

Logged on 14-03-2016 21:16:41; asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: one of the problems is that apparently it was already not being carried.

21:55

knowledge that you can drop 1, 10 or 1000 bitcoin on an arbitrary proposition and be covered fairly, people did not wish to do so!

21:55

it STILL boggles my mind that this was the case ; but the case it was. and weren't it the case - bitbet'd be to this day and forever swimming in a pool of dough.

21:56

because yes, the thing as it worked is STILL a major improvement over traditional gambling anything, and there's no sane reason i could possibly see that bitbet wouldn't carry a majority of the world's 10bn to 1 trn dollars worth of yearly prop betting.

21:56

i have nfi, but it was a very bitter thing.

21:58

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432786 << the very discussion, perhaps.

21:58

Logged on 14-03-2016 21:13:56; asciilifeform: also it is not clear to me what the folks in the dispute actuall want.

22:00

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432795 << in this perspective, that it did last 2012-2016 is quite the fucking divine intervention / pinnacle of human achievement, huh.

22:00

Logged on 14-03-2016 21:17:09; asciilifeform: given as it was structured in such a way that ANY unexpected ding would destroy it utterly unless carried by that month's profit.

22:00

!s "we were younger then"

22:00

0 results for '"we were younger then"' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=%22we+were+younger+then%22

22:01

awell.

22:02

*

BingoBoingo wonders what if any L1 or L2 interest in bidding for BitBet software/domain is out there

22:08

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432804 << not everything can always be valued. you understand this, yes ? the market, as well as the central planning committee and all sorts of other arrangements (such as - organised religion) exist in an attempt to resolve the "zero-infinity" problem.

22:08

Logged on 14-03-2016 21:19:16; jurov: asciilifeform: one ought to try to value everything. otherwise end up looking hungry to these pies

22:09

they get good results in different fields but a) they're alwyas approximations and b) none of them even cover the whole field - not in the sense of being close but in the sense of EVER OFFERING a value function that may take any inputs.

22:09

so, like it or not, it is still very much a research project for the human race.

22:10

trinque's very basic notion above about "categorically your time" thing is just an axiomatic (if erroneous) pillar supporting one of these methods.

22:10

and yes - for as long as pick one and you carefully sit under its umbrella, never leaving that domain "it works for me!". except we're in bitcoin specifically to see what's out there.

22:12

one should prolly look through eulora logs for some lulzy examples re the failure of the auction - the free market's revered, holy relic of a chief tool. guess what ? it... doesn't work!

22:15

(none of this is to say that one ~oughtn't~ try. sure, one ought to try. but also understand that this is exactly like "one ought to try and fuck every woman that can walk within his visual radius". in a veeeheheheheeery theoretical principle, sure. in practice - there is such a thing as penis friction blisters.)

22:17

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432813 << this view i share.

22:17

Logged on 14-03-2016 21:21:59; asciilifeform: bbet was ~the~ bet machine, as far as i'm concerned, fwiw, and now there is none.

22:18

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432816 << it is not mircea_popescu 's call to make.

22:18

Logged on 14-03-2016 21:23:52; asciilifeform: i suspect that mircea_popescu would rather burn it than let it go to hitler.

22:20

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432824 << suppose instead of runnign off to some sort of centralism, you just use the tools available ? they're here for this purpose ; you've seen them at work. gossipd didn't come out of the void, but out of practice based on philosophy honed with practice built on philosophy and so on and again numerous iterations over the years.

22:20

Logged on 14-03-2016 21:26:03; phf: jurov: you're right, there's not much that can be done as far as bickering. i find some of the positions rather petty or outright alarmist, but i can't keep people from talking. i'm only thinking that an arbitration procedure could produce tldr that at the very least will focus the attention.

22:21

mircea_popescu: jurov pointed out the error of my ways, but i believe that i might've accomplished what i was fumbling for already

22:21

ytou'll have to excuse me, i run parsed not compiled logs.

22:21

incidentally, what's the consensus of code wizards, compiled >>> parsed ?

22:22

(in the general, not re logs)

22:27

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432845 << i dunno that this is factual, but w/e.

22:27

Logged on 14-03-2016 21:44:17; asciilifeform: anyway my original point was that much of what we think of as 'tmsr economy' is not actually tmsr in any reasonable sense of the word, in that it is not effected by folks having a wot presence, nor does it even have so much as iceberg tip in the public forum.

22:28

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432848 << for the record, this is a lot weaker than it seems, for reasons discussed but perhaps worth repeating : it is so trivial to transform all txn into a high/low-S of one's choosing, that there exists no actual barrier due to it.

22:28

Logged on 14-03-2016 21:44:51; assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 19:10:37; asciilifeform: the failure of such a miner to exist is a game-theoretical smoking gun.

22:29

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432859 << i dunno that every bit of historical item that is no longer as useful as it was is automatically an oversight. but sure, we can entertain that view, perhaps it is informative.

22:29

Logged on 14-03-2016 21:47:54; asciilifeform: phf: from rereading the logz, seems like mircea_popescu admits this, even.

22:31

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432873 << how's the 75 arrived at ?

22:31

Logged on 14-03-2016 22:07:26; phf: jurov: i wonder if there are referees besides kako and mp. owners got at least 75btc each plus sales of shares, plus payouts from unsold shares.

22:33

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432885 << possibly. in truth, nobody but they involved can call the actions either overreacting or not. that's why people got noggins, to judge their own actions.

22:33

Logged on 14-03-2016 22:22:18; phf: but as an advertisement platform for mpex and steady stream of income for investors i don't see ~anything~ wrong with bitbet. my current interpretation is that a lot of various people overreacted and a sure thing was killed.

22:34

mircea_popescu: 50% non-transferable shares split between owners, about 301btc in profit?

22:34

ah yes, there is that. true, true.

22:35

ironcally, bitbet is not merely "a sure thing" - it's the only actually profitable, legit bitcoin business to date. THE ONLY.

22:36

tho eulora is slowling clawing itself from underwater. but the usual vc crapolade is nowhere near bitbet, or where bitbet was in its first month.

22:44

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432938 << i lulzed.

22:44

Logged on 14-03-2016 22:59:52; mats: asciilifeform: 'SuperH'

22:44

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=01-03-2016#1418943 << "i don't know i was very drunk at the time" (not trademarked, iirc i didn't even get liner note credits)

22:44

Logged on 01-03-2016 13:49:06; mircea_popescu: "noisehole, bullshitter, blowhard, drunkard, sadist, rapist, all-around disgrace to the sad sad State of Bitcoin (and a passive-aggressive plagiarist, too, to top a cherry on the shit-pan-kake!)" da fuck did you do adlai !

22:44

"superb how". freudian slip of all time, alf would like a workable dasmer.

22:45

lmao what!

22:45

specifically - who did you hurt for pleasure and what text did you steal.

22:46

i hurt my 'reputation', for my own pleasure (and that of lurkers), and got the private keys stolen from under me fingers. oh well.

22:46

*

adlai finds that he has nothing further constructive to add to the bitbet receivership saga; wishes mircea_popescu and kakobrekla best of luck resolving it in shareholders' best interests.

22:47

and 'solrodar' too, who has bigger balls than... who knows, maybe she wears them on her chest

22:47

wait, solrodar is a chick ?

22:48

i dunno, we're all a bunch of text here, except for the chicks that get their nickles one dime at a time

22:49

*

adlai for once, shuts himself up, to go sleep. putting preorders for morning popcorn, please keep the logs a-churnin (but do read them, too many idiots showing up here asking for summaries as though people are paid to write them)

22:49

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1433012 << quite so. there's a time for everything, and the time for that came and went. it will have to be resolved in the way things are resolved that don't get resolved otherwise.

22:49

Logged on 14-03-2016 23:25:56; kakobrekla: anyway imho it would be best for everyone for this mess to be cleared by me and mp - however while im making myself available in full capacity it seems to me mp is unwilling

22:52

i dont see where time went but if you say so ... i cant do it alone.

22:53

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19219 @ 0.00042487 = 8.1656 BTC [-]

22:55

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1433034 << the devs are people residing in this channel in the first place.

22:55

Logged on 14-03-2016 23:45:07; humanoidity: kakobrekla: on the technical issue that bit you guys (re-issuing a tx multiple times IIUC), and the conspiracy theories it spawned, I am wondering if you guys raised the issue with the devs to see if they reach the same conclusion ?

22:56

i thought you guys used a valley startup to build it???

22:57

wait what ?!

22:58

like one of those ben_vulpes shops, $300k bezzle a website

22:59

im thoroughly confused.

22:59

no, bitbet was, at least the first incarnation, shivad together by kakobrekla in... whatr was it, two weeks or something, i don't recall exactly.

23:02

i'm making fun of humanoidity's assumption that you guys need to go talk to devs elsewhere, by pretending to assume that bitbet was built in a very hackernews bezzel way, i.e. by outsourcing to an agile consultancy

23:02

oh.

23:02

i've also been reduced to explaining lame jokes in log!

23:02

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47700 @ 0.00042549 = 20.2959 BTC [+] {2}

23:02

sorry, kinda tired. anyways!

23:02

yes.

23:14

hanbot

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432955 << not to get ahead of myself with you guys, but it seems to me that if these 17 btc were in fact the problem, then you acted reasonably by refusing to sign...whereas if a putative, later loss was the real problem here, a more reasonable approach might've been to sign this report, and work together to ensure that there won't be such a further monster.

23:14

Logged on 14-03-2016 23:02:31; kakobrekla: whats next, he loses 170 btc next month and make bbet pay for it too?

23:17

hanbot to me this was 'unforeseen' event even if mp did it deliberately (by his own words) - there is no way that one could foresee further unforeseen events

23:21

hanbot the problem with your take on what's reasonable is that the other reasonable view is to simply say that everything's fine, nothing's wrong and there isn't nor could ever be any cause for expenditure, alarm or ultimately death. in principle this is a view that can not be dislodged, every living thing's expectation to live forever in a functional world is, misguided or not, nevertheless part and parcel of biology.

23:21

i even sympathize with it, albeit from a distance.

23:22

hanbot

i see.

23:27

phf: it's 400k for a mobile app if you bring your own designer, 50-200k if we design it, 10-40k for a single-purpose webapp with minimal frills and if you need a website, well, squarespace is over there. heck, they even do ecomm, and better than any wordprex.

23:28

this is almost the opposite of what my previous company would charge

23:29

phf: i clearly have no business being in business.

23:30

ben_vulpes: i suspect they don't know what they are doing

23:30

saving people from software is mostly thankless and rewardless.

23:31

phf: that's an advantage. i can't fleece people effectively with software, being too honest.

23:32

"nice people die first in holodomor"

23:32

"are you sure you wouldn't rather secure a loan with that 50k and set up a shop on squarespace?"

23:32

"great idea! i guess we don't need any custom software after all."

23:33

*

ben_vulpes starves, withers on the vine

23:33

at least you got your youthful good looks!

23:34

*

ben_vulpes too depressed about lemon markets to dance for old men and 'rounds' this quarter, probably ever

23:36

on only a tangentially related topic, when do we get the B.H.-style AN1 that retains all earnings /in/ the corp?

23:36

ben_vulpes: you can't trick me, i've been to portland, and i gotta tell ya, there's not much starving going on there

23:37

you realise what the N stands for yes ?

23:37

mircea_popescu: i'm illiterate!

23:37

lettuce spell it out then. http://trilema.com/2013/accounting-for-the-nonzero-asset-corporation-the-mpex-standard/

23:37

Accounting for the nonzero asset corporation. The MPEx standard. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1UuNpRO )

23:38

yes yes.

23:38

("but hey mp, you should have moved bitbet to this or something!" "yes yes, aren't you a great visionary, man from the future.")

23:38

"assetti null" or some such well-coined whatever.

23:38

hey it looked like a good idea!

23:39

no shoulds on offer here.

23:39

ah, i didn't mean you, dun sweat it.

23:40

just a spot of bitter retrospective jewish humour isall.

23:40

more looking to the future

23:41

something must be on the books for there to be any book value, etc.

23:43

!up stuff0577

23:44

stuff0577

hi

23:47

anyways phf, yes, alphabet corp friends and acquaintances are all having a grand party with the low cost of living.

23:48

'tis not quite yet a place where one makes 130k predicated on 140k in living expenses, more like 80k in living expenses.

23:49

the 'umble shoemaker, dedicated to sitting on his ass and never doing anything, will starve in this town until he turns to making fashionable shoes with heels and lace instead of the sturdy things in which men tromp through mud.

23:51

seems like most places

23:51

except those where alf lives and a permanent rain cloud rains bricks upon an acre centered on his head.

23:52

(which yes, will be an eulora thing)

23:52