#trilema | 2015-01-24

fucking disruption ?!

00:34

mats: id imagine a feminist would approve of such female empowering tech << i approve, at least prima facie. and im pretty sure im the last feminist alive.

00:35

00:35

... ( http://bit.ly/1JjWXIO )

00:46

ben_vulpes, mod6, jurov, mircea_popescu: bsd not fully optimal on the little machine; presently i have it with a linux 2.6.31 kernel, lightly patched

00:46

which flavr ?

00:47

generic, with several necessary patches from the cpu maker.

00:47

setting up a gentoo userland.

00:47

not bad.

00:49

idea is to pack the necessaries into a 'squashfs' (similar to what the device maker did with their nas app)

00:49

aha

00:49

very spacious rom (by embedded machine standards, rather than desktop luserdom, naturally)

00:49

mircea_popescu is gonna pass these out as party favours or what

00:50

yup

00:50

!gettrust nubbins`

00:51

Trust relationship from user mircea_popescu to user nubbins`: Level 1: 2, Level 2: 14 via 15 connections. | http://w.b-a.link/trust/mircea_popescu/nubbins%60 | http://w.b-a.link/user/nubbins%60

00:51

one thing is, curiously, missing from the box - a clock.

00:51

it has to be ntp'd every time.

00:51

holy hell a sane engineer.

↖

00:51

[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 4040 @ 0.00094983 = 3.8373 BTC [+] {12}

00:51

asciilifeform tell me why anyone sane would put a clock in at all if he has to ntp anyway

00:51

precious little 'state' in there. even ethernet mac addr. is software-configured during init.

00:52

not optionally, as it might be on your box or mine, but always. there is no rom for it.

00:52

dude find outwho the fuck designed this

00:52

i want to send them a woman in a large chocolate egg.

00:52

why anyone sane would put a clock << then gotta pick where to connect

00:52

asciilifeform gotta pick that anyway.

00:53

aye.

00:53

it's the right fucking choice for this tool, and the bravery to do it right rather than buy from ibm is staggeringly beautiful to my eye

00:53

as i understand, this is simply cost-cutting to the bone.

00:53

i've seen cost cutting to the bone implemented as "let's make it out of mud"

00:54

sundried.

00:54

it's a nas, folks expect it to run reasonably fast and not drop bits on the floor.

00:54

so, can't quite be mud.

~ 18 minutes ~

01:12

;;seen duffer1

01:12

duffer1 was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 10 weeks, 0 days, 13 hours, 56 minutes, and 30 seconds ago: <Duffer1> lies

01:13

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48800 @ 0.0004753 = 23.1946 BTC [-]

01:23

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17900 @ 0.00047433 = 8.4905 BTC [-]

01:24

mircea_popescu: data sheet reveals that there is, in fact, 64 bits of antifuse eprom in there. but it appears that 'pogo' was lazy, did not use these for anything.

01:24

aha

01:24

there is, however, no rng of any kind whatsoever.

01:24

may be nothing fit.

01:25

most curiously. (there is almost always a garbage rng, on such a chip)

01:26

this is riotously funny once you recall what their other product was

01:26

right.

01:26

(tor plug)

01:26

same hardware, incidentally, with different silkscreen on chassis and, naturally, different rom image (it's on their site, i won't bother linking to it, who the fuck cares)

01:32

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46100 @ 0.00047367 = 21.8362 BTC [-] {2}

01:46

morning

01:46

http://trilema.com/2015/the-strange-case-of-the-woodcollector-and-other-stories/

01:46

The strange case of the WoodCollector and other stories. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1ybffU5 )

01:46

hey n.

01:47

mircea_popescu: linguistic mega-lol >> http://lurkmore.to/%D0%9C%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D0%B1%D0%BB%D1%8F%D0%B4%D0%B8

01:47

Мохнатые бляди — Lurkmore ... ( http://bit.ly/1ybfsqi )

01:49

lol

01:49

i had no idea

01:49

somehow i escaped knowing of this.

01:50

"длинный шмель" uh... long bee ?!

01:50

long bumblebee.

01:51

uh

01:51

(earlier links in log, to english examples.)

01:53

pretty lulzy

02:03

https://bitbet.us/bet/1111/eur-usd-parity-in-2015/

02:03

BitBet - EUR/USD Parity in 2015 :: 0.24 B (80%) on Yes, 0.06 B (20%) on No | closing in 11 months 6 days | weight: 99`685 (100`000 to 1) ... ( http://bit.ly/1ybi07X )

02:04

check this shit out... ANOTHER parity ?

02:04

anyone still remember back when the eur was like 60 cents and everyone was convinced it's going away ?

02:06

scoopbot

New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/the-strange-case-of-the-woodcollector-and-other-stories/

02:07

o hey wb scoopy.

02:07

scoopy doopy doo, where were you...

~ 15 minutes ~

02:23

!up badon

02:37

hi mircea_popescu

02:37

how goes.

02:37

Looking at buying a Country Living Mill.

02:38

Also noticed bitcoin ATM's in my travels today.

02:38

It was an eventful day.

02:38

By my standards, anyway.

02:39

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/blockhains-first-citizen-328

02:39

A New Form of ID Allows You to Be a Citizen of the World | VICE | United Kingdom ... ( http://bit.ly/1CMN6qy )

02:39

lol

02:40

so what, buy grain directly an make your own flour ?

02:40

fluffypony yeh, was in teh logs.

02:40

ah

02:40

s/dumb vice shit/ http://41.media.tumblr.com/918ee965797f2645cc4d39d6f202684b/tumblr_ni6isl6ve51tkiwgwo1_1280.jpg

02:40

... ( http://bit.ly/1CMNncY )

02:40

*

mircea_popescu feels better.

02:41

the horizontal stripes?

02:41

:-P

02:41

this makes me feel better: http://i.imgur.com/LzYEnFB.jpg

02:41

... ( http://bit.ly/1CMNmGa )

02:41

ahahaha

02:41

kickass penguin guy

02:42

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102355771

02:42

... ( http://bit.ly/1CnV77u )

02:42

he's like "get da fuck outta here, don't you see this is snow ?!"

02:42

"Porn's new capitals: Romania and Colombia?" ;D

02:43

budapest sure ain't what it used to be no moar.

02:43

and the czechs are fucked out.

02:44

anyway, my hope to have each and every "social sciences" major of a us university hacking herself with a dildo for ten bux an hour is moving apace.

02:44

hehe

02:45

mircea_popescu: Yes, make my own flower, peanut butter, etc.

02:45

there was this funny post on the RoBitcointalk, from a Romanian girl, asking how to make easy bitcoin online

02:45

obviously everyone suggested porn :))

02:46

shoulda sent her to http://trilema.com/2014/ill-pay-for-your-tits/

02:46

I'll pay for your tits pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1CnVtLn )

02:46

but the only tardy dude that works for bitcoin foundation romania, recommended this

02:46

"Eu ti-as recomanda alta modalitate sa castigi Bitcoin pe internet care implica webcam si microfon. Poti da lectii pe internet contra Bitcoin. O metoda mult mai buna cred eu, decat sa te prostituezi online.

02:46

"

02:46

:)))))

02:46

Become a teacher!

02:47

right. and teach what.

02:47

in op post she said she's learning some insstrument at the viena conservatory :))

02:47

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=927693.0 ( the post )

02:47

Poate face cineva total incepator bani cu bitcoin? ... ( http://bit.ly/1CnVyhU )

02:47

"how to work for bitcoin foundation romania without drawing a salary : advise people to join you!"

02:47

Naphex srsly, post her teh tit link.

02:48

done

02:49

:))

02:49

maybe we end up how to play the vienna flute.

02:49

end up learning*

02:51

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3302 @ 0.00046695 = 1.5419 BTC [-]

02:52

"There are all of 3 people on this forum who know who i really am, and every one of them would not sell that secret for $100,000 because they have a vested interest in keeping the secret. What i am is why you will never find out. I am, in fact a world famous artist, my pieces have been in the Smithsonian on exhibit at the Louvre and in the home of pompous wealthy people the world over."

02:53

well, he just gave himself away, because obviously the Smithsonian lists all artists that it ever exhibited ; so does the louvre, of course. crossreferencing these lists and excluding everyone already dead, we get a list of...

02:54

nubbins` the lulz in this thing is like self-replicating.

02:55

"There are some really great people here on the forum, and some of you i really like and enjoy talking with like Blazedout and OgNasty and TookDK"

02:55

aaaand ognasty's involved in this ?!

02:55

jeez.

02:56

http://41.media.tumblr.com/9d28d4ad096b4bd06088985a5eabaf2e/tumblr_nhzgcshiHy1tkka62o1_1280.jpg also, jizz.

02:56

... ( http://bit.ly/1CnVZZB )

02:57

!gettrust assbot Blazedout419

02:57

Trust relationship from user assbot to user Blazedout419: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 4 via 6 connections. | http://w.b-a.link/trust/assbot/Blazedout419 | http://w.b-a.link/user/Blazedout419

03:01

!rate Blazedout419 -1 I suspect, without it being in any sense proven, that he was involved in "managing the brand" of the woodcollector fraudster. See http://trilema.com/2015/the-strange-case-of-the-woodcollector-and-other-stories/

03:01

Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/80df86773aa16913

03:01

The strange case of the WoodCollector and other stories. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1CMQC4e )

03:01

!v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.Blazedout419.-1:d28e9ad9ae166d0437b767c3aab2568097ab1e4ee6d43b46233e1a05bda33db4

03:01

Successfully added a rating of -1 for Blazedout419 with note: I suspect, without it being in any sense proven, that he was involved in "managing the brand" of the woodcollector fraudster. See http://trilema.com/2015/the-strange-case-of-the-woodcollector-and-other-stories/

~ 34 minutes ~

03:36

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35300 @ 0.00046695 = 16.4833 BTC [-]

03:48

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14900 @ 0.0004765 = 7.0999 BTC [+] {2}

~ 44 minutes ~

04:33

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8234 @ 0.00046701 = 3.8454 BTC [-]

~ 28 minutes ~

05:01

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23473 @ 0.00046701 = 10.9621 BTC [-]

~ 33 minutes ~

05:35

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12900 @ 0.00046843 = 6.0427 BTC [+] {2}

~ 56 minutes ~

06:31

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18000 @ 0.00047346 = 8.5223 BTC [+] {3}

06:34

[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 10 @ 0.10449987 = 1.045 BTC [-] {3}

06:41

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30500 @ 0.00047697 = 14.5476 BTC [+]

06:47

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4700 @ 0.00047697 = 2.2418 BTC [+]

~ 23 minutes ~

07:10

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10500 @ 0.00047889 = 5.0283 BTC [+] {2}

~ 1 hours 26 minutes ~

08:37

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28420 @ 0.00046695 = 13.2707 BTC [-] {3}

~ 18 minutes ~

08:55

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28176 @ 0.00047241 = 13.3106 BTC [+]

08:57

[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3734 @ 0.00097469 = 3.6395 BTC [+] {5}

~ 46 minutes ~

09:43

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=877143.0

09:43

circular laser engraver engineering [ Bounty ] ... ( http://bit.ly/1JvRBbt )

09:43

oops wrong one

09:43

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=930649.msg10247588#msg10247588

09:43

Scam Warning: WoodCollector ... ( http://bit.ly/15qUDjQ )

09:43

^ and so the saga ends

09:43

all threads locked

09:44

previously interested parties wander away

09:44

heh i was just catching up on that thread; harvested a lot of WoT data out of it

09:46

mp you know the logical conclusion to come of this is that i am somehow you, yes?

09:47

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34400 @ 0.00047241 = 16.2509 BTC [+]

09:51

"You cannot prove that man-made climate change is real because it's cold where I am right now" << nubbins` you think man-made climate change is real?

09:56

fuck off

09:57

live in seoul for a year, count the number of snot rags you turn black, and tell me we can keep doing this forever

09:58

oh, keep your yellow-dust masks too, you'll wanna count those

~ 23 minutes ~

10:21

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26000 @ 0.00046562 = 12.1061 BTC [-] {2}

~ 29 minutes ~

10:51

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30390 @ 0.00046381 = 14.0952 BTC [-] {2}

10:52

gribble> Rating change | Old rating 3 | New rating: Kelticfox > 4 > Anduck | Artisan coffee for Bitcoin and a Linux guru to boot! << handcrafted coffee now?

10:52

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10700 @ 0.00045925 = 4.914 BTC [-] {2}

10:53

danielpbarron: kopi luwak is asscrafted :D

10:53

heh

11:07

https://i.imgur.com/H84T1qN.jpg

11:07

... ( http://bit.ly/1GNWCjI )

11:07

^ definitive proof b-a is not a cult

11:07

anyone know where to buy tvtorrents

11:08

lol

11:08

Pierre_Rochard: I'll tell u whuuut

11:08

da boy ain't rite Pierre_Rochard

11:08

haha

11:09

thestringpuller: i read that as "anyone know where to buy terrorists?"

11:10

b-a promotes the individual's love for zirself

11:12

davout: wouldn't the purchase of terrorist essentially just be mercenaries?

11:12

isn't that all PMC is?

11:12

i guess so

11:14

i need a way to illegally acquire tv shows

11:18

http://36.media.tumblr.com/095d09d13fd16b21cbfde1fba0729073/tumblr_ni23dyWjR51t0px1fo1_1280.jpg

11:18

... ( http://bit.ly/1GNZw87 )

11:18

an' top of teh morning to ya

11:19

morning

11:20

http://pastebin.com/SrVMhVi2 if anyone needs investors.

11:20

Dear Sir, I represent group of private investors from SAUDI ARABIA, CANADA AN - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1GNZRHM )

11:20

just as good as horowitz & co.

11:21

mircea_popescu has the best porn

11:21

MOAR PLZ

11:21

http://41.media.tumblr.com/59fee21963c8e285b4ce9428ccf2660f/tumblr_nht66jrgBh1st57i5o1_1280.jpg

11:21

... ( http://bit.ly/1GO0elH )

11:22

lol those tourists in the background just like "the guidebook didn't mention this one!"

11:22

lol

11:22

http://33.media.tumblr.com/3767e6b09e411d8db5bc2a3e55af4e7a/tumblr_ni7pehJCqL1rw3hono3_r1_500.gif

11:22

... ( http://bit.ly/1GO0l0G )

11:24

aaaand http://33.media.tumblr.com/0ee0e58d76da664fe9c7288051642922/tumblr_ni7pehJCqL1rw3hono2_r1_500.gif

11:24

... ( http://bit.ly/1BnM3xK )

11:24

for somebody who so loves social media you sure do spend a lot of time on tumblr

11:24

http://33.media.tumblr.com/1705c63468ab1e5af3c770bc6eb89c65/tumblr_ni7pehJCqL1rw3hono1_r1_500.gif

11:24

... ( http://bit.ly/1BnM8BC )

11:24

lol

11:25

pictures worth 10k words.

11:25

suddenly computer times seem much easier to survive

11:31

cunt time, computer time...

11:32

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B8HRkndIgAA8Gsk.jpg

11:33

... ( http://bit.ly/1GO2DNj )

11:36

nubbins`: ^ and so the saga ends previously interested parties wander away << http://trilema.com/2015/the-strange-case-of-the-woodcollector-and-other-stories/

11:36

The strange case of the WoodCollector and other stories. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1GO3Bt1 )

11:36

you got mentioned :)

11:38

nubbins`: mp you know the logical conclusion to come of this is that i am somehow you, yes? << it is actually quite logical if you think about it. you're clearly part of this bizarro cult that consists of not being fucking niggers. and there's AT MOST one person that may conceivably even be interested in not being a fucking nigger at all.

11:38

so... we're all chris rock.

11:40

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4854 @ 0.00047353 = 2.2985 BTC [+]

11:40

my dude chris rock

11:40

nubbins`: live in seoul for a year, count the number of snot rags you turn black, and tell me we can keep doing this forever << entirely different matter eh ?

11:41

mats yeah seriously, i think since carlin died rock is actually teh king o' comedy

11:42

china says sorry not sorry fo' black kerchiefs

11:45

guy got fired over this -> http://imgur.com/u12vtPG

11:45

CCN author gloats about Coin Fire domain theft. - Imgur ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnOFMi )

11:46

derp ?

11:46

i had nfi ccn fired

11:46

what's coinfire do, it networks ?

11:46

o wait, this works.

11:48

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/01/4-year-sentence-for-teen-who-tried-to-join-isis.html

11:49

4 Year Sentence for Teen Who Tried to Join ISIS -- NYMag ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnP01u )

11:49

danielpbarron: << handcrafted coffee now? << this actually is a thing. I've had it in CR. It looks say like : http://trilema.com/2011/chestii-pe-care-mi-le-doresc-dar-nu-le-voi-putea-gasi-niciodata/

11:49

Chestii pe care mi le doresc dar nu le voi putea gasi niciodata pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnP1T4 )

11:49

heh, 4 years for trying to board a plane?

11:49

TomServo wtf is the crime ?!

11:49

I'm left wondering.

11:49

She was 'on the radar' see...

11:49

Judge Raymond Moore handed down a four-year sentence, but announced from the bench that she needs psychiatric help. "I'm not saying that her decisions were all a product of mental illness... But she's a bit of a mess," said the judge. "She has no history in the criminal justice system. She is very young.... Teenagers make dumb decisions a lot."

11:49

Moore matched the sentence prosecutors requested for Conley

11:49

this is a fucking outrage, seriously.

11:50

i bet that's a magistrate "judge" too.

11:51

"19yo girl sent to prison for 4 years over her decision to marry someone Obama doesn't care for"

11:51

check it out, in the pacific islander nation of the US, virgin brides must first fuck the mullato in chief.

11:52

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29600 @ 0.00045814 = 13.5609 BTC [-]

11:53

Pierre_Rochard: ^ definitive proof b-a is not a cult << butt...butt... we promote hate ?

11:55

or how about the fellow who went to jail for same 4 years for - hyperlinking - a few days ago.

11:57

what'd hje link to, again ?

11:57

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=24-01-2015#989894

11:57

Logged on 24-01-2015 02:41:17; asciilifeform: BingoBoingo, cazalla, mircea_popescu, qntra folks: http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/01/23/barrett-browns-prison-time-raises-cybersecurity-journalism-concerns << today this fella went off to jail.

11:57

asciilifeform: I was just trying to decide which is worse.

11:58

oh oh yes.

11:58

he linked to, irrc, the 'stratfor' papers.

11:58

yeah, huh.

11:58

btw, i PUBLISHED them. back in the day.

11:58

'The government asserts that I am not a journalist and thus unable to claim the First Amendment protections guaranteed to those engaged in information-gathering activities, Brown wrote in a prepared statement he planned to deliver before the judge at his sentencing.'

11:58

http://trilema.com/2011/stratfor-lolololor/

11:58

Stratfor lolololor. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnPZii )

11:59

heh, was he linking to you?

11:59

was a good xmas, 2011.

11:59

TomServo tbh i have nfi.

11:59

'Barrett Brown was sentenced in U.S. District Court in Dallas to 63 months in prison and ordered to pay about $900,000 in restitution Thursday on charges stemming from the incident, in which he posted a hyperlink in his reporting to information obtained by the Anonymous collective in a 2011 hack of intelligence contractor Stratfor.'

12:00

asciilifeform it really hurt them, that one. because well... back in 2011 the notion that we come when we please, fuck whoever we want, and leave was novel.

12:07

http://41.media.tumblr.com/addde248b78033ce14ccb684bff5ff42/tumblr_nhazkgYfhG1u4e2kko1_1280.jpg

12:07

... ( http://bit.ly/1BnRfSg )

12:09

mircea_popescu: moscow ?

12:10

pretty sure that's istanbul.

12:10

but then again i put amsterdam in portugal once befoar, so...

12:10

(yeh yeh tis moscow)

12:11

full frontal nudity bonus. http://36.media.tumblr.com/e17b9153048c244a2c4a68997593b202/tumblr_nhm729fUOJ1u4e2kko1_1280.jpg

12:11

... ( http://bit.ly/1BnRKf7 )

12:12

mircea_popescu: 'мобильные телесистемы' in istanbul ?

12:12

lol.

12:12

:(

12:12

:)*

12:13

hm, did i ever dump http://trilema.com/2010/high-society/ in here ?

12:13

High society pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnS5hW )

12:13

from back when i was rich in 2005 or something.

12:15

ben_vulpes, possibly other folks who work on apple machines: http://www.mondaynote.com/2015/01/18/apple-software-quality-questions

12:15

Apple Software Quality Questions | Monday Note ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnSiSi )

12:20

[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1961 @ 0.00099996 = 1.9609 BTC [-]

12:27

asciilifeform: looks like a pretty decent assessment of mac software

12:27

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36315 @ 0.00045294 = 16.4485 BTC [-] {4}

12:28

pretty much why i run a variety of the older os'es and quite avoid their work suite

12:31

pete_dushenski: article is not the first i hear out of serious, habitual apple users re: decay.

12:32

this is pretty much the subject of http://www.contravex.com/2014/11/26/living-in-a-post-steve-world/ as well

12:32

Living In A Post-Steve World | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1BWZB6i )

12:32

pete_dushenski: aha i recall that one.

12:33

i even bought my first non-apple keyboards recently

12:33

hacking on the model m now and also picked up the unicomp knock-off

12:33

pete_dushenski: which apple keyboard did you own ?

12:34

the last decent one, irrc, was made somewhere around 1993

12:34

yeh, can't not decay now that cap'n stevie's gone.

12:34

i was mostly using the white/clear plastic 10-keyer

12:34

unicomp << a colleague of mine just threw one out. worn springs after ~1 year.

12:35

the much sadder thing is linux decaying proportionally, and linus is still there!

12:35

might be societal brain rot at work ;/

12:35

linus curates - kernel.

12:35

everything else - the wolves.

12:35

asciilifeform: i'm hardly a power user so i hope mine lasts longer than that

12:35

the unicomp that is

12:35

*

asciilifeform is compiling a mutilated linux kernel as we speak

12:36

yes, he is not as powerful, or moreover, power works differently in foss.

12:36

however, it used to be enough, atsme point

12:36

once there was a town outside the castle - now, wolves.

12:36

castle - still there, afaik.

12:36

kernel - works.

12:37

yeah

12:37

and so far resists incursions of poetteringism, afaik.

12:37

societal brain rot.

12:37

"the people" are simply stupider than they were even twenty years ago.

12:38

pete_dushenski: what i utterly fail to grasp is why the 'unicomp' is even a thing, when actual 'model m' can be had for 20-50 usd. in working condition (if perhaps in need of a bath)

12:38

the latter point, i bet.

12:39

oh noez, cleaning

12:39

asciilifeform: my guess is the usb

12:39

"The second-system effect (also known as second-system syndrome) is the tendency of small, elegant, and successful systems to have elephantine, feature-laden monstrosities as their successors due to inflated expectations."

12:39

fucking wikipedia.

12:39

and no need to program keys

12:39

pete_dushenski: another $5 or so buys converter box

12:40

unicomp has all the normal mac keys

12:40

mircea_popescu: second-system effect << almost invariably discussed in the context of 'multics'

12:40

model m has to be diddled

12:40

no, it is NOT because of "inflated expectations". it is because of the barnacle effect. the world consists of a productive minority and a leechy majority. once a small elegant system becomes known, the previously uninformed majority now has a gradient to inform it. so they swarm the 2nd system, and barnacle it to all hell.

12:40

a small barrier to entry, but a barrier nonetheless

12:40

nothing is worse for a good project than poorly selected new contributors.

12:41

pete_dushenski: the customary mapping, iirc, is capslock->ctrl, ctrl->cmd, alt->option

12:42

asciilifeform: which is easy enough to do with sizzlingkeys, but this doesn't work on pre-10.7

12:42

pete_dushenski: sizzlingkeys ?

12:42

http://www.yellowmug.com/sk4it/

12:42

SizzlingKeys for Mac OS X - Control iTunes with keyboard hot keys using this iTunes Controller ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnW5PC )

12:42

pete_dushenski: apple's config thing has built-in key mapper

12:43

true as well

12:44

but apple's config doesn't recognise "alt"

12:44

this is the thing that always blew my mind about serious apple aficionados - they will pay, 20-100 usd, for a proggy that ought to be a 3-line perl script

12:44

mircea_popescu: re: judge who threw confused girl in jail for 4 years << nope he is a yale grad http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/11/14/president-obama-nominates-seven-united-states-district-courts

12:44

President Obama Nominates Seven to the United States District Courts | The White House ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnWhOX )

12:45

pete_dushenski: 'alt' is, iirc, called 'option' on apple box.

12:45

asciilifeform: yeah I use unicomp because mac

12:45

asciilifeform: economists would say that this is the function of specialisation in an economy ;)

12:45

possibly one could remap keys though, osx actually is pretty good with that

12:46

decimation nuts

12:46

decimation: the two habitual mac users i work with just threw out their unicomps (i think they were..) and bought actual 'model m' each.

12:48

yeah I would say that the unicomp strikes me as 'plastic-y'

12:48

aha.

12:49

i kinda like breaking kbds.

12:49

re: mac software quality << google just released 3 '90-days' for osx https://code.google.com/p/google-security-research/issues/list?can=1&q=OS+X+status%3DNew&colspec=ID+Type+Status+Priority+Milestone+Owner+Summary&cells=tiles

12:49

Issues - google-security-research - Google Security Research - Google Project Hosting ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnWQIj )

12:49

37.157.216.140 << armenia?!

12:50

seems so ?

12:50

!up Alina-malina

12:50

ey!

12:51

decimation: https://code.google.com/p/google-security-research/issues/detail?id=136&can=1&q=OS%20X%20status%3DNew <<< lol! radiodiddle?

12:51

Issue 136 - google-security-research - OS X IOKit kernel memory corruption due to bad bzero in IOBluetoothDevice - Google Security Research - Google Project Hosting ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnWZeS )

12:51

asciilifeform: re: pogoplug << http://archlinuxarm.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2284 Arch linux dufus parade has a thread that shows the location of a uart

12:51

Arch Linux ARM • View topic - Installation on the Pogoplug Series 4 ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnX2aE )

12:51

yeah there's something in the bluetooth stack

12:51

decimation: i think i linked the photo here. at any rate the uart is plain as daylight on this board.

12:52

i've never trusted apple bluetooth

12:52

i'll point out that it is not necessary to use the uart on pogo unless you seriously botch the install.

12:52

goddamit i barely trust anything a macbook air does

12:52

what if you want a serial console?

12:53

Bet placed: 1.81747625 BTC for Yes on "BTC back over $300 before March" http://bitbet.us/bet/1110/ Odds: 64(Y):36(N) by coin, 64(Y):36(N) by weight. Total bet: 5.59373041 BTC. Current weight: 83,343.

12:53

at any rate, "arch linux arm" officially supports their port on the pogoplug I gather

12:53

decimation: if want - sure

12:53

decimation: iirc arch linux is a systemd-ized turd.

12:54

yes, it quietly adopted years ago

12:54

erm

12:54

hi

12:54

Alina-malina: who might you be ?

12:55

asciilifeform, www.twitter.com/aleenamaleena

12:55

hi Alina-malina

12:56

are you from armenia ?

12:56

hi mircea_popescu

12:56

https://twitter.com/AleenaMaleena/status/528602172124958720

12:56

http://t.co/WxIlVnBijB

12:56

mircea_popescu, positive

12:56

lol what's that one ?

12:56

*

danielpbarron is half armenian

12:57

and shouldn't it read "buttcoins" ?

12:57

!rate Alina-malina 1 Voice

12:57

Alina-malina is not registered in WoT.

12:57

get in teh wot will you.

12:57

how?

12:57

http://www.contravex.com/2014/09/23/please-to-pgp-guide-for-linux-os-x-windows/

12:57

Please To PGP (Guide for Linux, OS X, Windows) | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnXKVe )

12:58

one second.

12:58

a there you go Alina-malina

12:59

danielpbarron: armenian eh? you guys are like jooz 2.0 eh

12:59

they are.

12:59

jooz?

12:59

Alina-malina jewish people. like pete_dushenski

12:59

it's just a little genocide

12:59

ah

12:59

right

12:59

heh

12:59

we are mountain jews

12:59

lol

12:59

lmao

12:59

danielpbarron: and financially savvy, neh?

12:59

re: eastern europe: http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-lithuania-manual-foreign-invasion/26802181.html << lol lithuania gov't, worried about Russian aggression, publicly released a 'handbook' detailing how to flee to poland

12:59

Wary Of Russian Aggression, Vilnius Creates How-To Manual For Dealing With Foreign Invasion ... ( http://bit.ly/1BnXYvN )

12:59

"swamp trolls and mountain trolls"

12:59

Alina-malina: ha!

13:00

mircea_popescu: please, desert trolls

13:00

decimation because russia never invaded poland...

13:00

they should have had a plan to flee to finland.

13:00

and poland never invaded lithuania...

13:00

pete_dushenski that is the lol.

13:00

note, lithuania didn't draft all adult males into army, issue rifles, and begin training...

13:00

well then, lol!

13:02

http://41.media.tumblr.com/fc6d2e7f75c34047e678136f8a410e8a/tumblr_nhm7344vEM1u4e2kko1_1280.jpg

13:02

... ( http://bit.ly/1BnYk5j )

13:02

"In the meantime, Lithuania is slowly strengthening its military apparatus, aiming to raise defense spending to 1.1 percent of GDP this year, and to NATO's own recommended target of 2 percent by 2020."

13:03

the baltic nazis were rather miffed when they learned what their role in nato would be (human shields, corpse-carriers) on account of lacking actual armies

13:04

I can't imagine buying a surplus romanian kalash & a few sticks of c4 for every household would be more than a few $100 mil

13:04

however, what $$ cannot buy is the will to use them

13:05

decimation: they would have to confront the fact that %xx of the adult men are pro-soviet

13:05

and will fight on -that- side

13:05

not hold out finland style?

13:05

finland is an actual country.

13:06

the baltic states are a complicated matter.

13:07

interesting example of latvia, where, iirc, the greater share of adult men are on 'european tour' (sweeping floors in germany for hourly wage)

13:07

ben_vulpes http://40.media.tumblr.com/8e788c436213452d04f56f5664ca46e3/tumblr_ncbcyt46ni1sffpvxo1_1280.jpg << now there is a REAL burning man!

13:08

... ( http://bit.ly/1uHVPLT )

13:10

I had a professor from Warsaw in EE undergrad: he had a joke: what do you call Prof. Zak in an f-16? Simple Pole in the complex plane?

13:10

asciilifeform: the men of lithuania idem

13:11

in latvia, estonia, situation is somewhat 'ukraininan' in that the industrial/scientific productive folks are solidly ru-speaking (if not actual ru)

13:11

ha that's an interesting point

13:11

hence, the enthusiastic suckers of usg cock are faced with waging war on everything that distinguishes their country from african pisshole

13:12

asciilifeform: also I suspect the 'productive' who didn't like living next to ru have already left.

13:12

decimation: there are only so many cabs in new york to drive.

13:12

*

pete_dushenski reflects on distinctly pro-russian, pro-intellectual veins coursing through his ukrainian ancestry

13:13

<decimation> asciilifeform: also I suspect the 'productive' who didn't like living next to ru have already left. << quite.

13:13

decimation: ya, a century ago

13:13

*

decimation has ancestors who came from functioning german settlements around odessa

13:14

http://41.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me7vlhQ22u1qejludo1_1280.jpg << on their arms and knees.

13:14

... ( http://bit.ly/1Bo0jXk )

13:15

mircea_popescu likes visible ribs, or what

13:15

the hound too houndy for your taste ?

13:15

re: clocks in computers << yes, the "RTC" chip with its shitty lithium battery and low-quality quartz is pointless

13:15

hound poorly fed.

13:16

decimation: not entirely pointless, as poorly written os assumes a notion of local time before network bringup

13:16

better to have the money spent on upgrading the oscillator that drives the cpu, so that accurate time can be kept in the short-run

13:16

poorly written os keyword.

13:17

the naming of time is a social phenomenon

13:17

decimation: and you still need an oscillator, given as the tick counter in cpu (x86-64 has one, but it is not a universal) can stop during low-power modes

13:18

right, but usually the oscillator is a shitty plain quartz without temperature compensation

13:18

even in expensive 'professional' servers

13:18

there are no 'professional' x86 boxes, only hypertrophied pc.

13:18

^

13:18

aye

13:19

basically they're running 1985 chinese wristwatches

13:19

an actual computer would have, at minimum, an 'oven' oscillator (capsule can also house rng.) or even rubidium oscillator.

13:19

defo.

13:20

indeed. or provisions for an external clock that has the same

13:20

nah, should be on boardwith golden contacts.

13:20

interestingly, fpga dev boards often have bayonet connectors for external clocking.

13:20

golden contacts naturally

13:21

time is a concern for bitcoin, and I suspect that 99% of your 'ntp' servers trace back to usg

13:21

;;isitdown bitcointalk.org

13:21

bitcointalk.org is up

13:21

via the 'gps' system

13:21

http://www.loper-os.org/?p=668 << see photograph in this article

13:21

Loper OS » Cypress EZ-Host Firmware Development Under Linux. ... ( http://bit.ly/1uHZCZM )

13:21

the coax connectors are clock in/out

13:21

oscillator (upper left hand) is socketed and you can yank it.

13:21

asciilifeform: presumably because fpga board designers are solving actual problem with actual hardware

13:21

decimation actually that tracing is why bitcin was designed so time isn't a concern

13:22

is time completely ignored in all the 'orphan' algorithms?

13:22

most if not all public ntp is operated by governments, yes.

13:22

i was actually going to suggest that ben_vulpes et. al. run an ntp server.

13:23

decimation not completely ignored, but one minute disagreements don't matter.

13:23

if only so that 'pogo' node can be pointed to it.

13:23

http://36.media.tumblr.com/5f843d5cc376e98d317f5bc7ff69259c/tumblr_ni19lxkUQC1tkiwgwo1_1280.jpg

13:23

... ( http://bit.ly/1Bo1QN4 )

13:24

ben_vulpes, et al : these boxes won't be ready for battlefield until seeding patch.

13:25

so the ability to run a clock within 1 min of other nodes worldwide is an implied requirement (or finding someone nearby with the same)

13:25

*

asciilifeform out to meatspace for a spell

13:26

decimation no, the ability to keep time within about a minute of what your previous idea of time was when the previous block was mined.

13:27

basically the bitcoin requirement is that your time is within ~10% ish of itself. so you can travel at up to 30Mm/sec.

13:28

ie, if the network thinks block 2 is mined at 12:00, and your clock thinks it's 17:55, and then block three is, according to the network, mined at 12:11 but your clock thinks it's 18:22 you'll have a problem.

13:28

(numbers entirely arbitrary, hafta look at actual code to get actual numbers)

13:30

i can't even keep track of what casascius coins i have right now

13:30

where's my spreadsheet!

13:32

okay, whoa

13:32

how do i still have so many o.O

13:36

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2tixaa/got_pulled_over_and_my_trezor_was_confiscated/

13:36

Got pulled over and my Trezor was confiscated, Police claimed its a voice recorder : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bo3xKu )

13:36

how many tards are reading that and saying "sucks he lost his tresor!!!!" instead of "what the fuck, the cops siezed a voice recorder?!"

13:36

ACAB

13:36

yeah srsly.

13:37

"what if you were robbed at gunpoint? oh wait it already happened"

13:37

midnightmagic

yeah that part was funny

13:37

yep

13:37

fool for wearing hw wallet around neck

13:37

at least tuck it into your fuckin shirt.

13:38

nubbins`: yeah I wonder what state he lives in

13:38

"got beat up, $5k of bling stolen"

13:38

could have been for breaking 'wiretap' laws

13:38

decimation texass

13:38

anyway, he's not getting it back.

13:38

http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/texas-recording-law < texas is a 1-party state

13:38

Texas Recording Law | Digital Media Law Project ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bo3MoV )

13:39

oh, the LAW is it.

13:39

maybe he can argue his case to a 'magistrate' from yale :)

13:39

what country do you think this is, syria ?

13:39

mircea_popescu tbh your post went a bit off the rails when you started ranting about niggers, but otherwise reasonably well put together

13:40

7/10 would not link to

13:40

what, i can't take a libertard word and redefine it to cash in on their investment ?

13:40

only they can take all the fucking words and do it ?!

13:40

*

nubbins` shrugs

13:40

yeah, it turns out yale owns the words

13:40

"nigger" is a libertard word? o.o

13:41

nubbins`: sure is

13:41

in the negative sense anyway

13:41

for the record, the definition of nigger is in http://trilema.com/2013/fried-chicken/

13:41

Fried chicken pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bo40fP )

13:41

roughly boils down to "us politician"

13:41

so africa is a metaphor?

13:41

ayup

13:41

o.

13:41

duh.

13:42

I had a friend who grew up around actual black people working in the fields in the south circa ~1960; they were called niggers and called themselves niggers without offense

13:42

and also we're using rape to refer to sexual intercourse now.

13:42

no idea why, but i'll grant it's shorter, so.

13:42

mircea_popescu: random: you would like the show shameless.

13:42

anyway, rang true up until that point

13:42

Or maybe i dunno. may not be smart enough for you but certain dialogue in it makes me think of trilema

13:42

can't say that pr's personal responsibility post wasn't clattering around the back of my mind while i was making rube jerky

13:43

nubbins` well, as the alternative usage spreads the article will become easier to read.

13:43

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3647 @ 0.00046731 = 1.7043 BTC [+]

13:43

nubbins` anyway, you're basically doing what fluffypony was doing on reddit : total waste of your time, subjectively,

13:43

but something i definitely respect.

13:43

*

nubbins` nods slowly

13:44

i'm in a position where this sort of thing doesn't really hinder my productivity

13:44

lotta paper prints these days, and paper air-dries 8)

13:44

lol then by all means.

13:44

also, arguing with idiots is, like figure skating, a sport.

13:44

keepos the blood going

13:44

funny cos that WC guy definitely spent 100% of the last couple days panicking and dealing w/ this

13:44

nmot the thing to do while your house's on fire, but otherwise...

13:44

heh.

13:45

his "fu guise i'm going home" megapost looks like it had outside help

13:45

in the absence of flesh, a whetstone. in the absence of whet, granite.

13:45

multiple, even

13:45

lol

13:46

i actually am sorry the forum crashed

13:46

he actually posted an image of his "fuck you nubbins" coin

13:47

big vector hand w/ middle finger raised, and NUBBINS in times new roman caps underneath

13:47

i lel'd

13:47

hand crafted?

13:47

nah

13:47

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2tixaa/got_pulled_over_and_my_trezor_was_confiscated/ << how is this not news yet?

13:47

illustrator

13:47

just more clipart :)

13:47

thestringpuller scroll up

13:47

it's amerikkka, old news, nobody cares yet

13:48

give it a few decades

13:48

i like the three k's in there

13:49

"fu guise i'm going home" << weird how south park is allusion is everywhere.

13:49

thestringpuller cuz bingo sleeps!

13:50

I thought this was a support channel for insomniacs tho?

13:50

*

thestringpuller stays up all night looking for answers on the computer.

13:52

http://www.contravex.com/2015/01/24/an-uncivilised-breath-of-fresh-air/

13:52

An uncivilised breath of fresh air | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bo5gQ3 )

13:53

thestringpuller it's like 4pm wtf are you on about lol

13:54

i'm drunk

13:54

$conference

13:54

empyex

mircea_popescu: Next conference starts in 2 months and 24 days. Estimated cost today: 8.16685513 BTC (Details: http://trilema.com/2014/the-conference-third-edition/ )

13:54

wow not bad.

13:55

did cazalla ever send you my press credential MP?

13:56

not that i recall ?

13:56

but i saw you published in qntra neh ?

13:56

hola pumperos

13:57

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_SS-TyXhhU

13:57

Los Lobos~ La Bamba~ FULL HQ - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bo5PcH )

13:58

<mats> [] ive been here a while and i still can't get over the high class white pussy strolling the streets << take any home yet?

13:58

Despite their references to the successes of King Louis XIV, both of these books are still yoked by the exact same horse-blindering Churchillian reverence for all that is broad-franchise democracy, and in particular its always-in-tow little brothers, socialism and inflation. << this guy.

13:59

who's that?

14:01

!up Xuthus

14:01

that is our jewish friend pete.

14:03

he's gonna end up a sort of Bertrand Levy of the republican times.

14:04

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13870 @ 0.00047319 = 6.5631 BTC [+] {2}

14:04

i was hoping for someone outside of the echo chamber.

14:05

ofc

14:05

shut up and eat your cultpeas.

14:07

i imagine that cultpeas would all be the exact same size, zero variation

14:08

and be the palest, most lacklustre green

14:08

ben_vulpes: echo, echooo, echooooo

14:08

nah, get out of here

14:09

cultpeas are fucking m&m's that have spent thirty seconds in a chick's cunt.

14:09

o shit they're that good ?!

14:09

sounds melty

14:09

then why won't ben eat them ?

14:10

that hard shell is surprisingly protective

14:10

though the colours are sure to run

14:10

yeah, i have timed this. 30 seconds best seconds.

14:10

such science

14:10

pete_dushenski runny colors are pretty much the identifying mark of this here cunt

14:10

i mean cult.

14:11

haha ya, blurring all the colours of all the flags

14:12

pete_dushenski: you money and my money ain't the same damn kind

14:12

i can live your life and my life at the same damn time

14:12

- p. diddy DA RMX

14:16

<mircea_popescu> [] danielpbarron: << handcrafted coffee now? << this actually is a thing. I've had it in CR. It looks say like : http://trilema.com/2011/chestii-pe-care-mi-le-doresc-dar-nu-le-voi-putea-gasi-niciodata/ << actually how all decent coffee is made

14:16

Chestii pe care mi le doresc dar nu le voi putea gasi niciodata pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bo8mDz )

14:17

i imagine so.

14:17

(the notion that a high grade product like coffee, or chocolate can be made in bulk, in such a way to appeal to the masses...well, this is old hat around here, right?)

14:18

i don't think though that we've extended this to computational substrate yet.

14:18

thestringpuller: :)

14:18

prevailing opinion being that there's no point in making a high quality computing product...yet

14:18

<asciilifeform> [] ben_vulpes, possibly other folks who work on apple machines: http://www.mondaynote.com/2015/01/18/apple-software-quality-questions << tell me about it

14:18

Apple Software Quality Questions | Monday Note ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bo8K55 )

14:19

they have this hilarious "spreadsheet" program "Numbers" that not just disregards 20 years of spreadsheet UI finessing, but also disregards their own text input conventions.

14:19

horrid.

14:19

can't handle trivial column shooping.

14:20

references get dropped constantly.

14:20

the "calculator" in 10.10 uses javascript

14:20

and so...can't actually do math anymore.

14:21

the mourning cry is "steve is dead"

14:22

itunes has been rotting since 10.4, at least

14:22

it was an entirely serviceable music library manager, until someone decided that it needed more features.

14:22

the new iphones are lolariously large

14:22

*embarrasingly* large

14:22

"oh hang on let me take out my tablet to take this call"

14:23

"american small"

14:23

<mircea_popescu> [] "the people" are simply stupider than they were even twenty years ago. << stupider? or more?

14:24

<asciilifeform> [] this is the thing that always blew my mind about serious apple aficionados - they will pay, 20-100 usd, for a proggy that ought to be a 3-line perl script << funny, this

14:25

i was entreated by a girl to "block some sites" on her computer. jezebel, gawker, others.

14:25

thirty second task.

14:25

*seasoned* apple users totally boggled - "what did you use for that?!"

14:25

"uh, /etc/hosts?"

14:25

*crickets*

~ 25 minutes ~

14:51

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23157 @ 0.0004722 = 10.9347 BTC [-]

14:53

coinfire now at coinfire.io... but that went down too

14:53

lol

14:54

ben_vulpes more stupider.

14:56

either that or dnsmasq to root them to localhost.

14:56

route*

14:59

;;ticker

14:59

Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 246.67, Best ask: 247.31, Bid-ask spread: 0.64000, Last trade: 246.67, 24 hour volume: 14755.03702198, 24 hour low: 230.0, 24 hour high: 249.49, 24 hour vwap: 239.808572793

15:00

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19600 @ 0.00047423 = 9.2949 BTC [+] {3}

15:00

$conference

15:00

empyex

mircea_popescu: Next conference starts in 2 months and 24 days. Estimated cost today: 8.14434281 BTC (Details: http://trilema.com/2014/the-conference-third-edition/ )

15:09

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12846 @ 0.00046809 = 6.0131 BTC [-]

15:22

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16750 @ 0.0004785 = 8.0149 BTC [+] {2}

15:32

http://36.media.tumblr.com/ddd24abce6f5955b395f09174b57e033/tumblr_nhxg7iISA81tkiwgwo1_1280.jpg

15:32

... ( http://bit.ly/1Boimgj )

15:34

http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2014/11/09_the-bitcoin-foundation-or-la-serenissima-tilts-at-windmills-or-so-you-want-to-hack-on-bitcoin-or-the-bitcoin-tax.html

15:34

The Bitcoin Foundation (Or: La Serenissima Tilts at Windmills, or: So You Want to Hack on Bitcoin, or: The Bitcoin Tax) ... ( http://bit.ly/18ckgXJ )

15:35

this is pretty cool reading, coupla months later.

15:39

xanthyos

!up Bagels7

15:39

i just dropped 5 lbs of steel handcuffs on 4 lbs of laptop

15:39

no damage.

15:39

fucking plastics...

15:41

hello mircea. why do you post naked women every once in a while? and why do they always have their arms down in that pose

15:41

it's because of his religious beliefs

15:42

they're in their natural pose (preparing supper in the kitchen)

15:42

also because they're good subbies ? who knows.

15:42

how many subbies do you have

15:42

http://41.media.tumblr.com/c55d10880cb8563c4af9aa53724bddc8/tumblr_ng7e3sebuM1tkz70so1_1280.jpg << you mean like that ?

15:42

... ( http://bit.ly/1BojAbc )

15:42

Bagels7 depends on your definition of "have"

15:43

well lets use your definition

15:43

im not having any right now, im sitting an' derping at computers. i had one earlier, in her ass.

15:43

http://40.media.tumblr.com/851963a501c61811525c8a5faae9c63c/tumblr_nhobtbJiel1tkiwgwo1_1280.jpg << hands by request.

15:43

... ( http://bit.ly/1BojIaB )

15:44

http://41.media.tumblr.com/9695a3751ab2896b73f0f598fc9ad859/tumblr_nh80q1PqyT1txyk7vo1_1280.jpg << legs, also.

15:44

... ( http://bit.ly/1BojIYe )

15:44

do you really believe all women are useless if not for being a bimbo

15:45

usefulness requires a criteria.

15:45

http://36.media.tumblr.com/ddd24abce6f5955b395f09174b57e033/tumblr_nhxg7iISA81tkiwgwo1_1280.jpg << hey I've been there!

15:45

... ( http://bit.ly/18cmqqa )

15:45

mircea's looking forward to hanbot's obituary

15:45

yes, nice legs. thank you

15:45

http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2014/10/25_notes-on-increasing-the-maximum-bitcoin-block-size-or-why-it-aint-happenin.html << hey ben_vulpes did gavin ever respond to that one ?

15:45

Notes on Increasing the Maximum Bitcoin Block Size (or, "Why it ain't happenin'") ... ( http://bit.ly/18cmvKG )

15:45

she'll be useful for that at least

15:46

nah. nuffin.

15:47

I think I think you are sexist Micea_popescu

15:47

because, obviously, water and soap doesn't exist and who could ever wash!

15:47

Bagels7 yes, i believe there is strict and unbreachable difference between the sexes.

15:47

i agree

15:47

so then we're both sexists.

15:47

but not the ones that people think

15:48

well people generally have no idea.

15:49

punkman gotta work on your timing then

15:52

well there was a bunch of stuff i didn't agree with that you said but I forgot what it was

15:52

maybe you actually agreed but you forgot.

15:52

http://editorial.designtaxi.com/news-adsexist1507/4.jpg << lol this takes the cake.

15:52

... ( http://bit.ly/1BokO6j )

15:53

great set of photos http://www.brainparking.com/view/topic.cfm?key_or=1241034&rate_old=10&type=49&lenta_type=3

15:53

... ( http://bit.ly/1BokTH7 )

15:53

my boyfriend makes my coffee and sandwhiches and cooks

15:54

so good for him.

15:54

yup cute blondie

15:55

oh so you have no problem when the sexes are reversed. neat

15:55

who took all those pictures

15:56

this set prolly schwarz

15:57

who's that?

15:58

saul schwartz, did a bunch of kink sets iirc

16:00

No, the differences between the sexes are breachable. some men sit down to pee because their mother made them

16:00

hardly worth the mention.

16:01

its really common here in canada that women act like men

16:01

only to the eyes of someone who has no idea what men act like.

16:01

havent you heard about the pussification of the modern man

16:01

they'd at best amuse actual men.

16:02

*

mircea_popescu shrugs.

16:02

neoteny is quite universal in teh degerate west.

16:04

well i know how men act like, i grew up with only a father, and all my aunts married passified men probably after they fucked a bunch of alpha's

16:05

mmmkay

16:06

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23400 @ 0.00048182 = 11.2746 BTC [+] {4}

16:09

;;tslb

16:09

Time since last block: 7 minutes and 5 seconds

16:10

<jurov> mircea's looking forward to hanbot's obituary << lol what are you on about?

16:12

hanbot remember the trilema post that spouse of deceased man is useless except to write the obituary?

16:13

well i remember the trilema post in which the woman's duty to write a eulogy, suck cock, and wash socks was outlined

16:13

iono about useless

16:13

or "spouse", for that matter ;p

16:13

Bagels7 ^^^

16:13

he was asking about it

16:14

omfg that's not what that article said, and wtf spouse!

16:14

http://trilema.com/2014/the-womans-job/ since we're on it

16:14

The woman's job. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bontgj )

16:14

!rate jurov -pi Reading Incomprehension!

16:14

Rating should be any non zero value between 10 and -10.

16:14

*gulp*

16:15

now you've done it!

16:16

hanbot if you eventually decide to sue for creation of a sexually harassful working environment, pls to direct it at jurov

16:16

she's working here?

16:16

no, but nevertheless!

16:17

who else is gonna write your eulogy?

16:17

im not fucking dead yet, am i ?!

16:17

lol this convo...

16:18

never late to plan for the occassion, isn't it?

16:18

http://cdn.collarspace.com/photos/tn/tn_1927835p07.jpg?11152013052916 << them.

16:18

... ( http://bit.ly/1Boo1D5 )

16:18

jurov i've heard of worse premises for dating services

16:18

jurov worked as a life insurance sales agent i bet!

16:19

lol i did for a while

16:19

lol

16:19

anyway, off to buy the tombstone, bbl.

16:19

hanbot rather a pickup line, maybe. "wanna write my eulogy?"

16:20

haha totally

16:34

asciilifeform: its a manual 3 axis, though i think it would take little effort to make it a full 3 axis.

16:35

asciilifeform: in context of the wood dong guy, he could vary height with the intensity as well, but it becomes really, really apparently its lasered because the edges are always charred

16:35

not that it matters, his shit is already obviously lasered.

16:36

also, nubbins`, your dedication to this guy is amazing.

16:36

AMAZING COMPANY!

16:41

http://hashingit.com/analysis/39-the-myth-of-the-megabyte-bitcoin-block some nice graphs

16:41

The Myth Of The Megabyte Bitcoin Block ... ( http://bit.ly/1Bor0LM )

16:47

<jurov> [] hanbot rather a pickup line, maybe. "wanna write my eulogy?" << i have actually used this one

16:47

successfully?

16:47

yeah!

16:48

we were like 14? 15? derping around on livejournal.

16:48

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9417 @ 0.00048561 = 4.573 BTC [+]

16:48

ben_vulpes: apple numbers is unsuited for math either, it uses floats...

16:48

davout: yeah let me tell you about the manual checks in the billing process to catch rounding errors

16:49

not that rounding isn't already an error in itself

16:51

"you want to do some btc related accounting? well, fuck you, the decimals after the second are a $1.99 in-app purchase"

16:59

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21900 @ 0.00048632 = 10.6504 BTC [+] {2}

17:10

man seconds really crawl by when one's fucking with cron scripts

17:23

mthreat

even the damn catholic church had a backdoor in AES. https://mjos.fi/doc/gavekort_kale.pdf

17:23

... ( http://bit.ly/1D3YL4G )

17:28

salud, pete_dushenski

17:28

we meet again

17:31

have some tits: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2RZXeQc5HU

17:31

Highway to hell - AC/DC (cover) Jess Greenberg - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1D406IO )

17:34

Bet placed: 1 BTC for Yes on "EUR/USD Parity in 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1111/ Odds: 95(Y):5(N) by coin, 95(Y):5(N) by weight. Total bet: 1.3 BTC. Current weight: 99,494.

17:34

oh as if its even a question at this point

17:36

bit4x gives you better odds

17:36

[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1500 @ 0.00099992 = 1.4999 BTC [+] {8}

17:37

a pauper is i

17:37

unqualified 'till i die

17:37

i should put a banner back on bb

17:39

http://www.dw.de/millions-of-german-workers-in-poverty/a-18212765

17:39

Millions of German workers in poverty | News | DW.DE | 24.01.2015 ... ( http://bit.ly/1D41zyJ )

17:41

9.5$, not 10.5

~ 17 minutes ~

17:59

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=723_1421956190

17:59

LiveLeak.com - 21-01-2015 Peshmerga hitting ISIS on major Offensive to reach Mosul, Good use of MILAN ATGM ... ( http://bit.ly/1D44Uy2 )

18:00

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14300 @ 0.0004903 = 7.0113 BTC [+] {2}

18:07

asciilifeform: i don't know that the thing needs to cough up *any* transaction on demand.

18:07

any *block*, yes.

18:07

any *unspent output*, yes.

18:09

my reasoning being that iterating through the blocks is adequate to get complex information out of the thing, and that producing unspent outputs is adequate for "bitcoinating" - eg, producing and signing transactions.

18:14

allahu snackbar

18:26

another netsplit?

18:27

https://blog.conformal.com/btcsim-simulating-the-rise-of-bitcoin/

18:27

btcsim: simulating the rise of Bitcoin | Conformal Systems, LLC. ... ( http://bit.ly/1D49Pim )

18:28

anything in particular about that, mats?

18:28

sim of 32MB block size

18:30

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29053 @ 0.00049077 = 14.2583 BTC [+] {2}

18:30

"a single machine acting as a full node" << conformal has yet to answer any questions re: what the specs of this "machine" were.

18:31

i was thinking that

18:31

https://i.imgur.com/M3Crl1u.jpg lmao. they totally made it look like a vagina ;o

18:31

... ( http://bit.ly/1D4aBMm )

18:32

when i made furniture, we went out of our way to put cunts into the woodworking.

18:32

a man sees what he wants to see

18:33

looks empty to me

18:33

kakobrekla gets it

18:34

https://twitter.com/SayfBattar/status/559073635898761218/photo/1

18:34

Cubs in the Islamic State, the generation that will conquer Rome in shā Allah http://t.co/DpkdwrsdmE

18:34

should get em some boots or something. c'mon.

18:34

wut, leave sha alone pls

18:34

cheapo bureaucrats.

18:34

http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/2015/01/the-wahhabi-wet-dream.html << related

18:34

Saudi Arabia's Kryptonite - Global Guerrillas ... ( http://bit.ly/1D4bep7 )

18:35

>PS: If the #ISIS jihad can...

18:35

hashtag isis ?

18:35

twitter?

18:35

irc chan ?

18:36

derpy guy?

18:36

dunno

18:36

<+mats> a man sees what he wants to see

18:36

i'm not denying anything

18:37

p sure he's referring to the twitter isis brigade.

18:37

not the best english, but what american knows how to write well anyways?

18:38

http://marc.info/?l=openssl-announce&m=142194517308956&w=2

18:38

'[openssl-announce] OpenSSL version 1.0.2 released' - MARC ... ( http://bit.ly/1D4bQLm )

~ 38 minutes ~

19:16

first!

19:16

lemme edit that up

19:17

scam

19:18

lemme edit that up

19:19

davout: "you want to do some btc related accounting? well, fuck you, the decimals after the second are a $1.99 in-app purchase" << seriously ? like a power chord that's not six inches long ?

19:20

ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i don't know that the thing needs to cough up *any* transaction on demand. << one can make his own emacs scripts do whatever one wants. notthe job of emacs to provide a preloaded button for arbitrary tasks.

19:21

*

ben_vulpes frowns

19:21

are you agreeing or what?

19:22

ben_vulpes: what is meant by "cough up transaction"?

19:22

./bitcoind getrawtransaction TXID

19:23

-> LOTSAH3X

19:23

"a CPU profile of the time spent processing a 32 MB block by a full node is dominated by ECDSA signature verification, meaning that with the current infrastructure and computer hardware, scaling above 300 tps would require a clustered full node where ECDSA signature checking is load balanced across multiple machines."

19:23

ben_vulpes i am agreeing yes

19:25

well, but if you attach a wallet to the node, it will need to crawl whole blockchain to get its transactions?

19:25

yes.

19:25

some means to get individual txs is needed

19:25

whoever needs this provides this.

19:26

if the node were to maintain the list of unspent transaction outputs, it would also have a list of the TXID's with unspent outputs.

19:27

it's a much more tractable problem to find transactions relevant to a given address out of that list than it is to walk the blockchain for same.

19:27

correct me if i'm wrong, but address balance is the sum of unspent transactions to that public key.

19:28

Cubs in the Islamic State, the generation that will conquer Rome in shā Allah << boys are wearing the stupid face veil thing too now ?!

19:28

but you propose to maintain only unspent ones? or none at all?

19:28

those cubs look like women.

19:28

i think that maintaining the utxo list is a good idea.

19:29

with the utxo list in hand, a node could create a raw transaction for signing by an offline node.

19:29

ben_vulpes it's a bad idea.

19:29

and why?

19:29

it's not unlike the "idea" to maintain a list of the phone numbers of the entire planet.

19:29

who knows, maybe you need to call someone ?

19:30

notwithstanding that in order to call someone, having the phone number is not a big deal. having a passing answer for "who's this ?" is.

19:30

with bitcoin you need to know your own phone numbers

19:30

if every phone had to maintain 6bn phone numbers ? that's terrabit memory on any phone ?

19:30

jurov so you maintain them.

19:31

yea, i'm asking how?

19:31

mircea_popescu: how long does a "rescan" take these days?

19:31

this is immaterial.

19:31

scouring whole blockchain every time address is added to wallet?

19:31

design is not a consideratio nof "how long does it take to bale the water out"

19:31

built it so it's not on a fucking river.

19:31

okay okay

19:32

suppose you somehow DO actually want 32mb blocks. how long does a rescan take then ?

19:32

no point in importing nonsense into the future.

19:32

so i made two claims, let's treat them seperately

19:32

a) bitcoind should not return arbitrary transactions by id

19:33

every time address is added to wallet? < if this is your common practice i think you are doing something wrong

19:33

b) bitcoind *should* be able to return transactions with unspent outputs

19:33

<kakobrekla> ... something wrong << what is best practice? feedback from industry leaders would be useful here.

19:33

okay, so for one to have complete stack, run something like electrum server that maintains the tx index and connects only to our node

19:34

bitcoind should put the blocks into an accessible database. the querying of that thing is the job of the user.

19:34

yu also imply creatng useful transaction index is the job of the user

19:34

i don't have an issue w/it

19:34

just want to clarify

19:35

there's no ready way to know hat the user will want the index to be.

19:35

another claim, for your consideration

19:35

bitcoind should not maintain a wallet

19:35

trying to invent a "this is the right way" because we're the power rangers isn't the way

19:35

bitcoind-wallet should maintain a wallet.

19:36

bitcoind should broadcast verifiable txn submitted to it.

19:37

bitcoind-wallet should generate and sign transactions.

19:37

modular fucking design, so you doin't have to change the whole thing every time a part sucks [for your usecase]

19:37

like linux. i don't have to get a new version of lindows to get rid of fucking notepad

19:37

okay. but then bitcoin will not be able whether relayed transactions aren't completely bogus

19:38

if it won't have even utxo set

19:38

txn are verifiable aren't they.

19:38

imho 3 parts. private key handler, bc api and a thing in between

19:38

at least yeah

19:39

first runs on airgap, second on my server in dc and third on my desktop

19:40

so, it will allow me to relay 1000 doublespend transactions with different destination addresses, because it can't check if the source isn't spent already?

19:40

<mircea_popescu> txn are verifiable aren't they. << not really. transaction only includes txid of previous transaction which itself has the pubkey required for validation.

19:41

ben_vulpes so then how "not really" ?

19:41

do you want me to say "not at all"?

19:41

<mircea_popescu> bitcoind should broadcast verifiable txn submitted to it. <<

19:42

and to do it you need to find all the inputs, if i understand ben_vulpes correctly

19:42

like i'm 5, please.

19:42

to verify a new transaction, one needs the previous transaction in hand, in entirety.

19:42

^all of them

19:43

ben_vulpes once a transaction is proposed, the software has two options. 1) "oh , this looks like a tx involving inputs i remember were valid" and 2) "these are the inputs. check. these are their sources. check. these are their sources. check. this is the coinbase. check. ok."

19:43

1 is wrong.

19:43

and i don't give a shit how convenient it is. let userland cut down the correct implementation for the sake of convenience.

19:43

if you check you check. if you don't check, then don't check.

19:44

mircea_popescu: but it also means it will relay all shit imaginable, you regard it as convenience otherwise?

19:44

i don';t see how it will.

19:44

how else you want to check relayed transactions from other nodes?

19:45

by looking at their inputs, an the inputs for those inputs, all the way to the valid coinbases involved.

19:45

so then the thing *does* need to retrieve arbitrary transactions.

19:45

but you sid it should not know anything about he inputs

19:45

from *its* blockchain (database).

19:45

you said it's the user's job to

19:45

*

mircea_popescu doesn't understand why this is contentious and will re-read.

19:47

ben_vulpes it needs to retrieve arbitrary blocks. why txn specifically ?

19:47

you can't have a valid txn in an otherwise invalid block.

19:49

maybe these other words work better : "transactions" is a useful notion when adding data to blocks. it is in no way useful, or even existent, when verifying anything. all you can verify, both the most and the least you can verify, are BLOCKS.

19:49

there's no such thing as "a valid transaction". merely, a valid block.

19:49

i guess this implies maintaining an index of txn hashes -> block hashes for lookup and validity checking

19:49

you can, for the sake of being silly, talk of "transactions included in valud blocks" but it really doens';t mean anythinmg. a block is a block.

19:50

you can't have "half a block"

19:51

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_rules#.22tx.22_messages

19:51

Protocol rules - Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1tbWAMc )

19:51

step 16

19:51

jurov i thought we were discussing bitcoin as a spec, rather than bitcoin as a hack.

19:51

having whole block wont help you, you need the utxo public key

19:51

jurov once it's in a block ? for why ?

19:52

jurov: a transaction in a block contains the public key iirc

19:52

how else you 'll be cerain it's the same utxo that baked in the block?

19:52

jurov how do you care ?

19:52

im not understanding something here.

19:52

that's what i'm asking, if you don't care it won't check relayed transactions?

19:52

ugh.

19:53

for all manners of double spends?

19:53

let me model this for a moment.

19:53

so block 1 is mined, 50 btc > 1block1coinbase

19:53

in block 2, a tx takes 20 btc from 1block1coinbase to 1testaddress1 ; 50 btc > 1block2coinbase

19:54

we see in block 3 a tx that proposes to take 10 btc from 1testaddress1 to 1 testaddress2. you propose we can't verify what ?

19:54

if it's laready mined, then someone else verified it

19:54

but i'm talking about 0conf transactions

19:55

exaclt.y

19:55

well the block 3 tx i named as "proposed" is a 0 conf.

19:55

so you see this 0 conf tx that's being proposed references an input in block 2. which you have and you verify and that's that.

19:56

you need to find and extract the specific inputs used and check the public keys

19:56

and if you don't have tx index, that means getting whole blocks

19:57

to get these keys

19:57

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17950 @ 0.00049152 = 8.8228 BTC [+]

19:57

...

19:57

i feel like i just spoke into a bag over here.

19:58

if you know that block 2 is verified, and you know that 1testadress1 is the 1testaddress1, what more do you need to check ?

19:58

because addresses aren't the atomic units

19:58

if i can interrupt, i'm coming at this problem from an entirely different angle.

19:58

thy aren't ?

19:58

you can send 10 times something to an address

19:58

thwen wehn you want to spend it

19:58

you must exactly name all these 10 inputs!

19:58

so ?

19:59

ben_vulpes by all means.

19:59

which is the transaction creation process.

19:59

if i'm reading correctly, you propose moving transaction creation *out* of bitcoind.

19:59

bitcoind-the full node /

20:00

?

20:00

i guess a step backwards is in order first

20:00

<kakobrekla> first runs on airgap, second on my server in dc and third on my desktop << seems txn are logically created on 1.

20:00

i think of bitcoind arbitrarily as 2.

20:00

and 3 is a toolset.

20:00

perhaps this mapping is only in my head ?

20:00

you're proposing a new "wallet" that knows how to create transactions.

20:01

the bitcoind *node* doesn't give a whit about transaction creation

20:01

right

20:01

the bitcoind node keeps a db, the bitcoind wallet selects what it wants and does what it pleases.

20:01

the bitcoind node makes sure it did what it pleased within bounds, and off it goes.

20:04

mircea_popescu: pls closer describe your idea of checking the transaction. maybe there lies the problem

20:04

you singlehandedly rejected the wiki link so you know better?

20:04

jurov i dunno how to do it better than http://log.b-a.link/?date=25-01-2015#990883

20:04

Logged on 25-01-2015 00:53:08; mircea_popescu: let me model this for a moment.

20:05

perhaps ask a question ? reductio ad absurdum ?

20:05

transaction is not checked against whole coinbase or whole blocks

20:06

but against individual outputs that it spends.

20:06

with me?

20:06

they may even not yet be in block

20:06

!up phillipsjk

20:06

i don't follow. use the formalism in the model, that's why it's there.

20:07

because your model says about whole blocks and coinbases

20:07

right.

20:07

well... you can't have any btc to spend if you don;t have any btc to spend. that specifically means, a derivaiton of a coinbase, in a block.

20:08

before block 3 is published, 1testaddress2 sends to 1testaddress3 (both 0 verify)?

20:08

rejected.

20:08

but as 0conf transaction can be checked against other 0conf transactions (remmeber satoshidice?)

20:08

jurov but only once the previous is included.

20:08

you can't have the 3rd higher in the tree than the 2nd

20:09

no

20:09

seems txn are logically created on 1. < afaik you can do it on 3 and just sign on 1

↖

20:09

they can be all included at once (but not in reverse order)

20:09

kakobrekla hence 3 = tools.

20:09

yes

20:09

they can "prepare" your tx, but for my formalism, it ios "created" once 1.

20:09

semantics i guess.

20:11

jurov so basdically you're talking of a degenerate case of my model, which sure, as a convenience can be implemented by my model as well.

20:11

"oh look, 3 is based on 2 which we just approved, include it too"

20:11

no i'm trying to explain transactions maintain their identity in blocks

20:12

they do not. transactions once included are no longer a thing.

20:12

so to be clear - before block 3 is verified, 1testaddress1 sends 20 btc to 1testaddress2, and 1testaddress2 sends 20 btc to 1testaddress3? Is that the issue?

20:12

they are only a thing while in mempool. but once they're in the block, they melt away.

20:12

you seem to imagine they got poured into the blocks as scraps of gold into a solid brick

20:12

this is nothing but the actual case.

20:12

it's not the case

20:12

again : all you can verify, both the most and the least you can verify, are BLOCKS.

20:12

because any new transaction explicitly names each idividual scrap

20:13

there's no such thing as "veryinfing a transaction that was already included"

20:13

that's irrelevant.

20:13

so to verify if you mus pull the scraps out

20:13

i'm about new ones

20:13

just because that's what you do now doesn't imply it's what you must do.

20:13

currently proposed transactions are verified on the basis of historically accepted blocks, not on tyhe basis of historically accepted transactions.

20:14

all that must be done is check that a tx input comes from a previous block.

20:14

s/./?

20:14

no.

20:14

can it be done without doing the individual signatures?

20:14

ah ah but check that a transaction is in a block

20:15

ben_vulpes all that needs to be done is verify that a tx input matches a previously included output, and that the block was valid.

20:15

got it

20:15

so it builds on itself

20:15

for that you want to have the outputs indexed somewhere

20:15

this "transactions bloodline" bs is a fetter.

20:16

jurov not more than in the sense of knowing which blocks they were in

20:16

okay, then we're on the same page

20:16

i think we mgiht be. will have to re-re-read this sometime that's not saturday night in between cabaret and strip club.

20:16

great

20:17

so, if one 'submits' a chain of 1000 transactions, attached to only one tx output, one can imagine that they might not verify all in the same block, depending on the mempool logic

20:17

if transaction bloodline is bs, why are we against bc shelling/pruning

20:17

kakobrekla because they want to do it stupidly.

20:18

note that the way proposed above allows one to still verify the whole damned chain from block 1 onwards.

20:18

in general, we';re not against anything power rangers CLAIM to want to do. it's just that a) thjey never actually do it and b) always break other things 'attempting'

20:18

and then even more things "fixing" the "attempt"

20:20

new topic!

20:20

do bitcoind-node and bitcoind-wallet share a db?

20:21

s/do/should

20:21

kakobrekla let me put it another way : the miner output of a block is actually defined by the code as "everything left over once you substract the sum output from the sum input"

20:22

if this isn't proof that a transaction once included loses its identity i have no idea what would.

20:22

if you need to keep track in which block it is, then it does have identity

20:22

ofc when it is fully spend, then you won't have to do anymore

20:23

*spent

20:23

jurov afaik you can only "fully spend" inputs.

20:23

there's a degenerate case where you gift it to miners, but otherwise...

20:23

once you sign out of an output, it's out.

20:24

we're going in circles

20:24

leave it to later

20:24

goodnight

20:25

yeah srsly.

20:26

maybe last try: let's have deposits to mpex sprinkled in various blocks, they are unspent outputs

20:26

now you do withdrawal, you need to gather and sign all of them despite it's the same 1Fx address

20:26

that's fine, that's up to wallet

20:27

BUT

20:27

everyone who wants to check the withdraawal is valid, needs to gether them all too

20:27

to check the signatures

20:27

how are miners doing it?

20:27

they check as above

20:28

so they actually troll through the whole blockchain

20:28

jurov let's take the following case : on march 15th, 1jurovaddress gets 1 btc. on march 20th, 1jurovaddress gets 1 btc.

20:28

yes, hence the various horrible database turds

20:28

then on 25th march, 1jurovaddress pays 1 btc.

20:28

now, which btc is spent through this process is not established by you.

20:28

!up buttonwood_

20:28

but by miners.

20:29

nope

20:29

all you establish is you have 1 btc left

20:29

nope

20:29

otherwise, they sort and spend the 15th btc.

20:29

nope

20:29

<mircea_popescu> jurov i thought we were discussing bitcoin as a spec, rather than bitcoin as a hack. <<

20:29

srsly, what are we doing here!

20:30

i'm talking about the reference implementation.

20:30

what miners do is...unknowable?

20:30

ben_vulpes is this "bitcoin as it should be" or "bitcoin as it is to be inferred from current codebase"

20:30

well mircea, then make a spec. many people unsuccessfully tried various mixing proposals that were supposed to do what you propose

20:30

maybe monero has it, dunno

20:30

but it hasnt' anything with bitcoin then

20:30

honestly i thought this is what the topic was.

20:31

but you're saying that if i cook up a transaction that has 1march29th as an input, the miners should actually rewrite that to use 1march15th as an input?

20:31

how is my signature even valid in that scenario?

20:31

perhaps i don't understand what all gets signed. more than likely.

20:31

ben_vulpes nah. im just saying, if it's ambiguous, then it's ambiguous.

20:31

it was never ambiguous

20:32

nor there was successful attempt to make it so so far

20:32

<mircea_popescu> once you sign out of an output, it's out. < o.O

20:32

if i want to spend my low-priority outputs, that's my problem.

20:32

jurov weren't you proposing that *somehow* there's ambiguous outputs as the entire point of what you were saying ?

20:32

much like if you want a > 1m transaction that's your problem

20:33

mircea where?

20:33

<jurov> now you do withdrawal, you need to gather and sign all of them despite it's the same 1Fx address << it's whjat i took this to introduce.

20:33

no srsly, we will have to revisit this topic later.

20:34

it's not ambigouous, *you*, means your wallet picks up individual deposits

20:34

makes a withdrawal out of them

20:34

and no miner ever has a say in which ones

20:35

but if they are different outputs, included in variuous blocks... they're verifiable by those blocks... ?

20:35

mebbe i dun understand what the problem is.

20:35

no, they're verifiable by themselves

20:36

regardless if they are in blocks

20:36

1 btc from block 5, 1.5 btc also from block 5, 2 btc from block 6 -> 4.5 btc to 1derp

20:37

^yes now that transaction would list both inputs from block 5

20:37

right, different outputs for that matter.

20:37

but the reason you know they're valid outputs is that block 5 is a valid block.

20:37

the reason ytou know block 5 is a valid block IS that they were valid outputs, or was at the time, but this is a separate topic.

20:37

"valid" and "confirmed" are two things

20:37

see ? that's the whole thing. that these two are separate.

20:37

well yes!

20:38

you can have valid unconfirmed transactions, even valid tx that spend unconfirmed transactions

20:38

sure.

20:38

but once in a block, all you can have is a confirmed block.

20:38

check that is it valid is done by checking all the inputs' singatures

20:38

you can't have "these are the valid and these are the invalid txn of block 6"

20:39

check that it is verified is done by checking it's in block somewhere

20:39

that is true but also irrelevant!

20:39

right.

20:39

maybe the reason we've talked so long about this is because we're saying the same thing/

20:40

maybe. the issue was the need to track unspent outputs, regardless of

20:40

whether they are mined or not

20:40

and all of this because i asked about what should bear responsibility for creating and signing transactions.

20:41

right. and even if node doesn't create txs itself, i'm asking about verifying whatever txs flying around

20:41

*are

20:43

ok, see you later

20:49

going at it the other way, consider this discussion :

20:49

A. I own 500 btc.

20:49

B. I don't believe you.

20:49

A. Here's proof i control address X, and here's a payment of 500 btc to it *included in block Y*

20:49

B. A, ok.

20:51

what's being verified is a) control of the address in question and b) bitcoin feeding it included in a block.

20:52

and now time for me to leave you in teh company of pantsless gal. http://40.media.tumblr.com/30be7e529761c4abe5e30f096eadbe75/tumblr_nhrrym8nc71tkm6r8o1_1280.jpg

20:52

... ( http://bit.ly/1tc0LYs )

21:02

!up buttonwood_

21:02

buttonwood_: do you work for the economist?

21:03

nope, why do you ask

21:03

there's a semi-anonymous column there by the same name?

21:04

seems ddosbot has been powered down

21:07

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2744 @ 0.00049181 = 1.3495 BTC [+] {2}

21:08

I've been really interested in applying the smart contract technology to bitcoin-otc. Are there currently any active smart contracts or oracles doing escrow trading on bitcoin irc ?

21:12

its not a real thing, buttonwood_.

21:12

hasn't been done, won't be done.

21:12

@mats what's not?

21:12

why not

21:12

'smart contract technology'.

21:13

because 'hard ai' doesn't exist yet.

21:13

what about a multi sig oracle

21:13

all extant projects purporting to be 'smart contract technology' is a scam. like ethereum.

21:14

look, you can't offload the complex business of trust to anything but a human.

21:14

can't be done. deal with people you trust or don't do business, full stop.

21:14

but the trust can be drastically reduced

21:15

multi sig is a perfect example

21:15

multi sig and escrow are essentially bad patches to a broken trust model

21:16

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64709 @ 0.00049611 = 32.1028 BTC [+] {4}

21:16

sack up and take responsibility for your actions.

21:17

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59891 @ 0.00048544 = 29.0735 BTC [-] {4}

21:17

offloading due diligence and trying to use technology as a crutch to paper over deficiencies in your business relationship sounds suspiciously like the old world way of doing things

21:18

There has to be a better way to do otc trades tho. I can't believe that trusting somebody on bitcoin-otc with a good rating is the optimal solution

21:21

use the ratings and talk to the raters

21:21

@mats do you work on any bitcoin related projects currently?

21:21

nope

21:22

<mats> use the ratings and talk to the raters << this. again and again, this.

21:22

buttonwood_: you can't trust people that you don't trust. end of story.

21:23

trust is built over time, and can't be abstracted out.

21:23

!gettrust assbot buttonwood_

21:23

buttonwood_ is not registered in WoT.

21:23

;;gettrust buttonwood_

21:23

WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user ben_vulpes to user buttonwood_: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=ben_vulpes&dest=buttonwood_ | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=buttonwood_ | Rated since: never

21:23

you're clearly in a good position to be talking about how business should be done around here.

21:23

man, this sicilian lentil soup is fucking amazing

21:23

AMAZING COMPANY!

21:24

;;echo /msg assbot amazing

21:24

AMAZING COMPANY!

21:24

/msg assbot amazing

21:24

AMAZING COMPANY!

21:24

;;echo /msg ben_vulpes hello

21:24

/msg ben_vulpes hello

21:24

boo

21:24

*

ben_vulpes is an incompetent hacker

21:25

21:15:50 <+mats> multi sig and escrow are essentially bad patches to a broken trust model << in the way you mean to use it, that is

21:30

for example, futures and options are largely inexistent in bitcoin. Mainly because of the trust involved if you were to sell me an option. If we used an oracle to do multi sig escrow or step in when there's a dispute the oracle could ensure both sides make good on the contract

21:30

there was an options exchange for a while, buttonwood_.

21:32

which one MPOE?

21:33

that'd be the one, yeah.

21:33

!up buttonwood_

21:33

thx

21:34

anyways, there was one. are you aware of why it shut down?

21:37

https://twitter.com/_youhadonejob/status/559174647309021187 << this town

21:37

Let's hope no one got hit. http://t.co/3tfuQiAbAv

21:38

anyways, buttonwood_ are you still interested in working this thread?

21:38

buttonwood_ Mainly because of the trust involved if you were to sell me an option. < I’d say it’s mainly because the volatility and discount rate are going to be completely out of whack until fiat is destroyed

21:39

yes they would certainly be expensive

21:40

hence, “largely inexistent”

21:41

Bet placed: 2 BTC for No on "Gold to drop under $1000 before March 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1101/ Odds: 16(Y):84(N) by coin, 18(Y):82(N) by weight. Total bet: 12.30387905 BTC. Current weight: 61,285.

21:41

buttonwood_: ^^ that bet right there is a good example of best-in-class contracts.

21:41

arbitrated by...humans.

21:43

^ exactly, the difference between a computer oracle and a human arbitrator approaches nil over time

21:45

;;gettrust buttonwood_

21:45

WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user Pierre_Rochard to user buttonwood_: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=Pierre_Rochard&dest=buttonwood_ | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=buttonwood_ | Rated since: never

21:46

assuming they're any good of course

~ 38 minutes ~

22:24

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21900 @ 0.00049024 = 10.7363 BTC [+] {2}

22:38

mircea_popescu: i've observed that the number of cases meeting the parameters in the courts-circus project are very scarce: i've read every case involving the judges nubbins` listed, with the keyword privacy on Westlaw, which yielded about 90 cases

22:39

mircea_popescu: but there are 11 judges with 0 cases and 12 with just 1. i'm now going through and reading every case involving USG, i've cleared ten judges this way, but the number of cases i've been able to find have been fairly low in number

22:39

mircea_popescu: are you interested in loosening the requirements?

22:43

i figured i'd give it a shot before proceeding, i've put at least 400 hours in already and i believe there may not be quite a lot of useful data at the end if i continue this way

22:43

[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2500 @ 0.00097526 = 2.4382 BTC [-] {4}

~ 34 minutes ~

23:18

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10459 @ 0.00049322 = 5.1586 BTC [+] {2}

23:19

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6191 @ 0.00050758 = 3.1424 BTC [+]

23:21

[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2500 @ 0.00096062 = 2.4016 BTC [-] {10}

~ 20 minutes ~

23:42

<buttonwood_> I've been really interested in applying the smart contract technology to bitcoin-otc. Are there currently any active smart contracts or oracles doing escrow trading on bitcoin irc ? << no. people do thje trust calculation by hand.

23:43

<mats> multi sig and escrow are essentially bad patches to a broken trust model << mats is like the oracle on the topic now!

23:43

buttonwood_> There has to be a better way to do otc trades tho. << nope. isn't, for provable reason. isn't happening in practice, either.

23:44

!up coderwill

23:45

davout http://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/2t7k6w/the_emperor_is_buttnaked_btc_block_size/ << apparently you got haters

23:45

The Emperor is Buttnaked (BTC block size discussion with Gavin) : Buttcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1CpvB1r )

23:46

<mats> mircea_popescu: are you interested in loosening the requirements? << perhaps. do you see meaningful expansions ?

23:56

at the present time, it seems to me that bitcoin derivatives do not serve a real market need

23:56

well, public facing ones anyway.

23:57