Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2022-12-03 | 2022-12-05 →
00:24 crtdaydreams phf: do you have an ebuild for libsdl-1.2?
00:35 crtdaydreams nvm
00:48 crtdaydreams fugg. 32bit on a non-multilib sys is like square peg and round hole
~ 11 hours 49 minutes ~
12:37 phf << correct method is to Xnest :3&;DISPLAY=:3 twm&
12:37 bitbot Logged on 2022-12-03 13:03:31 asciilifeform[6]: suspects an oddball interaction b/w this thing and 'ratpoison' wm. the events only start to roll when re-exposed somewhere ~other~ than the wm frame where window originally appears
12:38 asciilifeform phf: hm, wat does that do ?
12:38 phf Xnest is a nested x11 server
12:39 asciilifeform aaa
12:39 phf spins up a window, and if you connect to display 3, you get your shit running in that window. also localizes lockups, etc.
12:39 * asciilifeform has been using crapple lappy for x experiments ever since that lul
12:39 bitbot Logged on 2022-11-22 00:20:27 asciilifeform[5]: crtdaydreams: nfi whether the approach is practical yet. (managed to, so far, wedge x; and then, separately, to create unkillable zombie window after process killed, grr)
12:40 asciilifeform at least there can restart x w/out fucking over9000 things
12:40 phf there's enough tooling to not have to do anything this sevage, not that i'm opposed to using apple lappy ofcourse
12:41 * asciilifeform will try nested x
12:41 phf you also want
12:42 * asciilifeform has been puzzling over moar mundane puzzlers : wai can't draw anywhere close to the edge of the window w/out crash? wai the xcb example properly occupies resized (by ratpoison) window with white bg, but asciilifeform's -- not? etc
12:42 * asciilifeform tried catching configurenotify event but it doesn't appear that xcb does any such thing by default. nor does that ev fire at creation (there's anuther one that does, but again xcb duncare)
12:43 phf well, xscope might help. that's a packet tracer, works the same way as everything else on x (shittily, lul): sets up a fake server, connects to real server (or Xnest in your case), clients connect to fake server, and whatever goes over wire gets dumped
12:43 asciilifeform loox useful. asciilifeform has been using strace as an ad-hoc xscope
12:44 phf there's also xtrace that does the same thing, i've not used it. i've used xscope a bunch for debugging genera and for writing from scratch x11 code
12:45 asciilifeform reportedly new wireshark also does (but naturally won't build under asciilifeform's gentoo lol)
12:45 phf but yeah, you put xscope on 3, you put xtrace on 4 and connect to 3, you connect your app to 4 and you're golden
12:46 asciilifeform and yes this is prolly the only way to solve the case. gnarly.
12:46 phf it's also stock, it comes with x11 installation, and will be on your apple already
12:47 * asciilifeform and not even touched the horror of actually cobbling together sumthing resembling a gui 'from raw atoms' when finally have a working drawable window & signals
12:47 phf asciilifeform, i've down this ungodly path of yours before, so i've tooled up :>
12:47 asciilifeform phf: how far didja get last time ?
12:50 * asciilifeform continues to uncover ungodly horrors of the deep, e.g. events which come with a 'there's N similar events following this one' counter
12:50 asciilifeform or for that matter various in-memory 'planes' which appear to be required to get scrolling, double-buffering, etc
12:51 phf 􏿽well, my usecase is different, i've been idly writing a book, which is a kind of introduction to basic graphics programming fundamentals, by using a comon lisp reimplementation of an old macromedia based game. it's got a little bit of everything, if you want to know how computer gr
12:51 phf 􏿽aphics work from first principles or how to do "real" code in lisp. binary data parsing, PCX from scratch, bitblit, cinepak as an example of video encoding (it's very easy to work with). so all i needed was a way to canvas
12:52 asciilifeform aa neato
12:52 * asciilifeform read a # of graphix b00kz, typically they start out 'get sdl' or similar
12:52 phf *a way to canvas within less than a chapters worth of implementation details
12:52 asciilifeform (excepting the msdos ones, lol)
12:53 phf i've worked with barski on land of lisp, and i really liked his freewheeling from scratch approach "we're going to write a really shit, but good enough web server in clisp for our next lesson"
12:53 asciilifeform there's a rather noticeable gap tho, historically, from 'what's in graphix textbook' to 'gui resembling gtk', i.e. w/out flicker, etc
12:53 asciilifeform 'land of lisp' was a++ imho
12:54 * asciilifeform not aiming at 'gtk-like' but moar modest b&w line graphics, but at least such that worx on arbitrary-res displays and not liquifies yer eyes with flicker
12:55 asciilifeform a bolix-like style would be entirely adequate for serious use imho
12:55 phf we used to run a hacker get together in dc, back in the day, when "presentation on haskell" was still a novel and exciting thing. i mean the group was called "fringe dc". god damn hipsters ruined everything.
12:55 * asciilifeform was in 'hack dc' club for some yrs, went similarly
12:56 asciilifeform buncha folx got various gear together, amassed a junkyard's worth of parts, and regularly convened, but mostly errybody tired from day job and merely 'shot the shit' and summed to 0
12:56 asciilifeform a 'hack dc' made of ample-time aristocrats could be interesting, but asciilifeform won't be there lol
12:58 asciilifeform 1 time at 'hackdc' they had a series of 'clojure' sessions, and asciilifeform attended, and after that wrote this
12:58 asciilifeform (at some later time, asciilifeform imagines , 'hipsters ruined', but not made it to see this, threw in the towel )
13:09 signpost << have to agree, with much respect to current implementations, they oughta be subordinate to the spec.
13:09 bitbot Logged on 2022-11-28 11:23:17 phf[awt]: it's got a big of a makefile effect: you'll have a kludge that's relevant for about a month, and then it becomes legacy kludge forever
13:18 signpost yep, really seems like multipart oughta be separate message code, both for the immediate reason and to pour some ideological cement.
13:19 signpost I can help awt patch in this message code if helpful. seems like all that'd be needed is to send it to the standard message handler, since the IRC frontend isn't going to do anything special with multiparts
13:20 * asciilifeform has 0 problem with this pov, given as nobody seemed to strongly barf from the idea of old clients missing multipart msgs until upgraded
13:20 * asciilifeform will make'em new codes.
13:34 phf lisp pest already runs with draft multipart, but i think i only need to change protocol definition to switch to different message type, as opposed to unicode prefix
13:36 signpost << brutal, wish her peace.
13:36 bitbot Logged on 2022-11-28 13:38:24 asciilifeform[jonsykkel|awt|deedbot]: meanwhile, in misc. old-timer blogs.
13:37 phf << i was hacdc interim treasury for a couple of months, but back when i was there it was still somewhat active. 2004? i remember we were trying to setup a community wifi network, starting with that church
13:37 bitbot Logged on 2022-12-04 12:55:24 asciilifeform[5]: was in 'hack dc' club for some yrs, went similarly
13:38 phf when i came back and lived in dc last time, 2018, it was already "bunch of old dudes talking about doing a project and not having time for it". none of the people from 2004 were there anymore.
13:38 signpost << good time to decide whether inbandism is banned with prejudice
13:38 bitbot Logged on 2022-11-28 15:21:41 phf[awt]: asciilifeform, have you given a thought to ACTION? that's something that's not address in the spec, and if you're going to drop irc specific stuff probably should be
13:41 signpost and if it is, subsequently whether "action" is part of a class of messages or worthy of its own code.
13:42 * signpost and MULTIPART-MESSAGE ought to be subtypes of MESSAGE in some manner, given both could be called something like rendering hints.
13:43 signpost obviously in one direction you expend message codes, and the other, message space by adding sub-classifiers
13:43 signpost AWAY status could be another of these sub-types of message
13:45 phf action is cute, because it's one of those atavisms, comes from mud culture, and is otherwise non-existent in all the modern™ protocols. possibly because reflective narration in humans is a higher function
13:46 * signpost considers it culturally indispensible!
13:47 phf what does exist in modern protocols thouhg, are various content types. like i've only worked with telegram, but it has location message, various kinds of document messages, a sticker pack message, etc.
13:48 signpost yeah, one I eagerly anticipate is DHT-LINK-HASH
13:48 * signpost brb
13:48 phf they don't do any kind of type hierarchy though, it's message types live all equally at the high level. so a document message might have a text comment on it and regular message also has text on it, but both texts are not considered to be same attribute
13:48 phf *its message types
~ 1 hours 47 minutes ~
15:36 signpost that chained messages are planned imho relieves pressure on conserving message payload space. I'd probably recommend reserving a few bytes for a message subtype which precedes the payload. will continue to think about it.
15:41 signpost << possibly subtype comes with length of subfield, and one can put however many in there.
15:41 bitbot Logged on 2022-12-04 13:48:46 phf[awt]: they don't do any kind of type hierarchy though, it's message types live all equally at the high level. so a document message might have a text comment on it and regular message also has text on it, but both texts are not considered to be same attribute
15:42 signpost then message with a link to boobs can still say "boobs" to clients that can't boobinate.
15:49 signpost the 6byte "mark+Z" is probably enough space to say both length and subtype.
15:49 signpost dunno even needs that much, probably can shave ~2
15:50 signpost just talking through it, no firm proposal.
15:57 signpost and as phf implies, a client can then filter by "all hyperlinks", "all with $term in body text", etc., if what's conceptually same is denoted the same across subtypes.
15:58 signpost $ticker btc usd
15:58 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $17094.2
~ 2 hours 38 minutes ~
18:37 asciilifeform << related q -- do we want htmlism in text? (when gui client, prolly will be tempting)
18:37 bitbot Logged on 2022-12-04 13:38:08 signpost: << good time to decide whether inbandism is banned with prejudice
18:38 asciilifeform << asciilifeform was last there in '09 and was already 'old men talking' then
18:38 bitbot Logged on 2022-12-04 13:38:07 phf[awt]: when i came back and lived in dc last time, 2018, it was already "bunch of old dudes talking about doing a project and not having time for it". none of the people from 2004 were there anymore.
18:41 signpost asciilifeform: that question points out that multipart is probably an orthogonal concern to message subtype.
18:42 signpost i.e. subtype of text/html, m of n. subtype of pr0n, m-of-n
18:42 asciilifeform iirc heathen chats often do photos etc. as mime-tagged text
18:42 * asciilifeform would rather not import that shitstack if can avoid tho
18:43 asciilifeform m-of-n per asciilifeform's picture oughta be for text strictly. (for fat binaries, oughta use signpost's lubytronic encoding)
18:43 asciilifeform m-of-n is so to be compat with broadcast
18:44 signpost makes sense.
18:45 signpost re: html ick, but also something will grow there "organically" if not defined, I wager.
18:46 signpost could choose to be fascistic about text-only plus link-references to DHT items, and how they're displayed is left to the client to decide
18:46 signpost that'd at least be a place to start that doesn't haul in chromium
18:48 signpost I suppose nothing stops anyone from putting HTML in the text hole, and having their client interpret it. doesn't ask much if anything from the protocol.
18:48 * signpost will think moar and return in a bit
19:00 asciilifeform imho good opportunity to drive 1st nail into coffin of html : introduce sexprs in text payload.
19:01 asciilifeform e.g. (bold "foo") etc.
~ 51 minutes ~
19:52 signpost opens up quite a lot of flexibility to evolve in the viewer
~ 2 hours 41 minutes ~
22:34 asciilifeform << why add moar type fields when 'command' not even threatens to run outta slots
22:34 bitbot Logged on 2022-12-04 15:49:20 signpost: the 6byte "mark+Z" is probably enough space to say both length and subtype.
22:35 asciilifeform ( if for backwards-compat -- how's a msg with hypothetical text type field of unknown type anymoar back-compat. than a command where ditto ? )
22:35 * asciilifeform is of the 'fewer magick #s where at all possible' school of thought
22:37 * asciilifeform (...))
22:37 asciilifeform sexprs 'degrade gracefully', if an older client not knows how to interpret (WHATEVER (...)), can simply print it
22:38 signpost I think the sexp markup idea covers every interesting use-case for content within a message, yep
22:38 asciilifeform aha
22:38 signpost this plus making multipart messages their own command looks pretty tidy to me.
22:39 asciilifeform if packets weren't stuck at rather tight fixed length, whole thing could be sexpr. but as it is need some (minimal) set of numeric codes, where need, but where not -- oughta sexpr imho
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