#pest | 2022-10-14

PeterL: 'hevea' dun do this , and asciilifeform aint maintaining 2+ ~identical texts

13:19

PeterL: if you missed hevea thrd -- what it does is to eat a (slightly constrained) latex and produce meaningful html from same

13:19

the latex orig. can be compiled normally (to printerable pdf)

13:20

even if hevea shat alt-texts (it doesn't) -- still would be of ~0 use in a search, cuz string inside an algo box wouldn't highlight

13:22

there's quite certainly (and author claimed to have baked one, but it barfs on his latest ver. ) some magick sequence of heveaistic latex defs that'll make 'algorithm' go as clean text. asciilifeform simply not found it yet, and not has much time to experiment atm

13:22

Logged on 2022-10-13 18:11:50 asciilifeform[5]: ty signpost . is a 1st class headache to bake ( e.g. asciilifeform still stumped how to make 'algorithms' latex pkg work under 'hevea' -- found author's discussion but notworx at all.. )

13:25

sadly he did not indicate what version of 'algorithm' latex pkg his hack worked with. possibly oughta try old vers, or write to him re: which

13:32

this kinda thing is inescapably doomed to bitmapization, but output of 'algorithm', which is simply elaborately indented text, oughta be reasonably htmlizable.

13:32

Logged on 2022-09-30 22:20:45 asciilifeform[jonsykkel]: apropos of nuffin -- baking illustrations for rewritten pest spec

~ 1 hours 3 minutes ~

14:35

http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-10-13#1014130 << afaiu and you probably know already, there's no "universal" pill. you only have two solutions: bitmap and conditional replacement. if you use either at the level of the package callout, usually the result is suboptimal, so hevea author will "reverse" the package: usually an

14:35

Logged on 2022-10-13 18:16:58 asciilifeform[4]: maybe phf knows the pill.

14:35

y particular package operates with a set of basic primitives, that you then can either bitmap or subsitute in a way that works with html

14:36

phf: right, got notion from hevea author (see earlier link) that 'algorithms' can be hammered into straight edibility tho

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14:41

have you tried the method from hevea-usage? loading algorithm.sty directly and letting hevea do its thing?

14:43

phf: did; result loox like this

14:43

( ln28 is particularly odd, given as even standard hevea styles have that cmd )

14:44

iirc

14:44

e.g.

14:48

this too much work :D

14:55

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asciilifeform not expects other folx to do the work. q was strictly in case phf et al have answr 'up sleeve'.

14:57

yeah, i figured, i just remembered going through this exercise with other packages, i thought maybe i remembered something. but with latex there's no such luck

14:59

not so much publicly posted in the way of heveaism examples, sadly

15:00

there's evidence that some folx use it: some stylesheets etc. but nuffin 'hightech'

15:02

it's high technology to begin with, necessarily has very low usage (to use effectively requires understanding of tex model, latex model, "macro" model, and alternative macro backend out of the door to wield effectively)

15:02

yea

15:04

tbh i stopped using latex, altogether, because i've moved all my documents to plain tex (way i reason learning very slow moving targets like plain.tex or eplain.tex and doing it the texbook way is more future proof than trying to keep up with latex internal changes. but of course the tradeoff is that the answer to "how do

15:04

i" question is more often than not "you don't")

15:06

which also means that i use texinfo to produce technical documents, but looking at your hevea output i'm a bit jelous, because i know texinfo won't give me something that pretty out of the box

15:07

it's the usual grrchoice b/w 'heathen libs, theoretically nice if they work' and 'bake own errything outta raw $turtlegraphics'

15:10

"i'm 70 and here's my 400mb of handwritten postscript code. this one is a hack that i used to visualize instrument valuation when i made my millions at BigBank, and this one is the one i used to model my beach house extensions couple of years ago"

15:11

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asciilifeform not 70 but sweated out fair share of ps gnarl, incl. autogenned in horrendous ways from various crapola (genomics turds etc)

15:11

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asciilifeform not eager to do it again if can weasel out

15:17

tikz imho pretty neat, e.g.

15:17

(this worx a++ in heveaism cuz bitmapized, naturally)

15:17

of course peak generated postscript is the gratuitous branch cut visualization in cltl2

15:17

aaaha

15:19

i've been meaning to do like a highres polyptych of those for the office

15:20

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asciilifeform pictures wall-sized cltl2 pinup

15:20

point n00bs to coordinates. (or w/ laser, lol)

15:21

(https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node129.html)

15:22

hmm the maffisms look rather pixely there (quite unlike the deadtree iirc)

15:23

i think there are better renditions of cltl, but that's the canonical source

15:24

apparantly there's also a partial ru translation https://filonenko-mikhail.github.io/cltl2-doc/enpdf/cltl2.pdf

15:25

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asciilifeform fwiw rather astonished that umd is hosting mirror of cltl. recently walked their www, 'what became of these people?', found moar or less what expected to find -- ai class w/out lisp, 500 megatonnes of 'mozart'

15:25

dulapbot

(trilema) 2014-06-22 asciilifeform: 'You can routinely find lecturers with more than a hundred published papers and you marvel at these paradigms of human creativity. These are people, you think, who are fit to challenge Mozart who wrote a hundred pieces or more of music. And then you get puzzled that, in this modern wor

15:26

i think the hosting probably comes with “legacy” athena exposed endpoints

15:27

there's crapola from '90s there, waiting for a disk to burn out and the hosting box to hit scrapyard, suspect

15:28

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asciilifeform at one time visited their surplus yard ~daily (lived next door) in search of lispms. but never saw any, and nfi whether any were even in use in ye olde shithole

15:29

pretty much, “myself, prof such-and-such, and my team of young rapscallions, have replaced this old athena thing with a gmail and google docs! come learn with us at umd, a modern school, through and through!”

15:29

got a pile of last-gasp dec alphas tho & 'infinite' spares

15:29

aaha these

15:30

athena still surviving because some centenial checks his mail with pine, and doesn't want to switch. occasionally a bushy tailed youngster sshas in and discovers old magic to be rebuked "why are you wastng your time, lets write SCRATCH code for our RASPBERRIES instead!"

15:31

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asciilifeform for a while 'ghost' at umd's cs dpt, ineptly hunting for 'survivers' -- interesting people somehow still employed via bureaucratic oversight. but got tired

15:33

2-3 of the profs from 20y ago still there, 'mozarting'; the rest -- aged out, replaced w/ the expected asian chix etc

15:33

dulapbot

(trilema) 2015-06-26 mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/on-the-elaine-shi-and-andrew-miller-scam-ring/ <<< if anyone else feels inclined to voice their concerns re the fraud being perpetuated against umd, please do so, either towards the people there listed or anyone else you think appropriate.

15:33

^ that 1 still on the payroll, lol

15:35

'modern school'(tm)(r)

15:36

pretty sure it's in #t logs and older, the disconnect between "a hallowed place of learning" and the reality. i sort of realized that umd is not an ivy, but was still shocked at what i observed

15:36

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asciilifeform has even nfi where worse, the various umds or 'ivies'

15:37

and there were brief periods when umd was trying to be part of the whole mit-in-the-70s thing, connected to athena, contributed to the whole "global interschool network" initiative

15:38

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asciilifeform recalls prof bragging re um being, supposedly, 1 of 1st to get actual computer (surplus 'minuteman' guidance block, lol)

15:38

asciilifeform, these days i don't know. but i if nothing else it's much easier to find “ruins of medieval castles” in cambridge, uk rather than toledo, oh

15:39

phf: possibly even that moar 'ruins' at provincial shithole than in megabux+overactive redguards mits

15:40

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asciilifeform not been to any mits, so cannot comment concretely

15:40

i vaguely suspect this culture died everywhere at the same time, everyone simply fell from whichever hight they were at to begin with. so e.g. when semantic web lispers got poached from umd or exciting hack projects get somehow replaced with industry interests, etc. mit was going through its own great replacement

15:41

that it died, 100%. open q is where (if anywhere) fragments lived on (for howlong?) through oversight

15:42

so being at the tail end of it at umd i simply saw a smaller university fall from grace, probably would've been more exciting to see the fall at mit. but you might also be right, they might've been +x years ahead of the curve and by the time i were to be there the transition would've been already complete

15:42

the go-to example is dks's tale re some .mil shithole (ft drum?) where bona fide bolix boxen (as of '10) were still in use, 'these being the only 1s that not 1ce crashed'

15:43

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asciilifeform at 1 pt dug up the public contract docs, confirmed story. naturally not found 'for what used'

15:44

"accounting" :D

15:44

lol

15:46

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asciilifeform must bbl

~ 1 hours 25 minutes ~

17:12

crtdaydreams

http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-10-14#1114030 << would you like a peering key? I can send you one through your age key.

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17:12