#pest | 2022-08-26

Logged on 2022-08-25 17:55:56 awt: Yes threading would be good. I tried it initially, but couldn't untangle db locking issues.

01:30

but the inner loop functions are of course significantly cheaper than python…

~ 2 hours 15 minutes ~

03:45

http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-08-23#1113346 << I appreciate you sharing. I'll hold my tounge and avoid making anymore assumptions.

03:45

(asciilifeform) 2022-08-23 gregorynyssa: I still look forward to finishing the rest of the FFA tutorials when mathematics returns to my life. have a nice day, everyone.

03:59

http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-24#1011448 << this is analogous to one IRC client for every channel, think of the overhead !11!, also arguably multichan by a single client (and therefore single port) which decreases attack surface considerably at scale, and obfuscates traffic, making traffic analysis far more difficult

03:59

Logged on 2022-08-24 09:44:44 asciilifeform[jonsykkel|deedbot|crawlerbot]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-22#1011335 << 'multichan' is already there -- erry net is 'channel'

04:01

keeping peers within dunbar is one thing, but constraining peers and +l2 to the dunbar is another entirely

04:04

if wanted to create pestnet for users of blatta, to discuss testing and working on blatta, i.e. #blatta, at this moment would need to cp blatta, modify, re-key, open new port, port forward, etc.

04:13

perhaps this is a misconception arising because of the current divide between station and client, if so, please feel free to clarify

04:26

if u think about wot as an atempt to create explicit system mirroring meatspace relatnioships

04:26

a pestnet would then be the mirror of a group of ppl within earshot of eachother (for larger nets will also depend on ur wotness to them)

04:26

a pest direct mesage exchange would then be the mirror of 2 ppl moving away from the group

04:26

either to have privat comversation or to discuss somthing else than vat big group is tlaking about at the moment

04:26

somtimes it makes sense in meatspace that >2 ppl move away from group in this way

04:26

a irc channel has secret flag to distinguish between those 2 use cases

04:26

whether a perfect miror of a meatspace mechanism is the desired goal can be debated

04:26

or maybe it is desirabl, but theres a tradeoff with complexity, so theres some optimal balancing point

04:34

http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-26#1011614 << In a pest the process is a corrospondence (private msg) with each of those individuals then above

04:34

Logged on 2022-08-26 04:26:32 jonsykkel: a irc channel has secret flag to distinguish between those 2 use cases

04:34

Logged on 2022-08-26 04:04:19 crtdaydreams[jonsykkel|awt]: if wanted to create pestnet for users of blatta, to discuss testing and working on blatta, i.e. #blatta, at this moment would need to cp blatta, modify, re-key, open new port, port forward, etc.

04:35

Mebbe I've misconstrued the term "Multichan" with "Multinet"

04:35

It seems that could be the source of confusion here.

04:37

*

crtdaydreams refers to the capacity to have one pestron handle multiple pestnets

04:39

either that or blatta, smalpest et al already support management of multiple nets and I've missed that feature entirely

04:39

but if u keep same port, same keys etc is it then multi nets

04:40

jonsykkel: atm can already have multiple keys for the same user in the wot

04:41

not much of an extension to designate the use of a particular key to a particular network

04:41

ryte, but purpose of that afaik is only to allow for rekeying without posibility of losing peertivity

04:41

(in case station crashes during rekey and changes commited to disk on one end but not the other)

04:42

or somthing

04:42

^ defo tru

04:44

canot spek for blata but smalpest indeed only single net single irc socket per proces

04:48

ok, thanks for clarifying that

04:51

i.e. atm l2+ nick conflict problem virtually non-extant, as no implmentations support l2+!

04:55

nah l2+ is supported through hearsay

04:56

guy[relayer1|relayer2...] etc

05:03

l2 being (set-difference peers-of-your-peers your-peers)

05:03

(and excluding urself)

05:10

(or are you in ur own l2? philosophical nugget to chew on for u gyse)

~ 1 hours 4 minutes ~

06:15

*

crtdaydreams is unaware of any two people here peered with two different bobs as only could exist in an impersonator scenario opposed to multinet collisions

06:18

atm would see both bobs in #pest, as if in a different net would be running on a different process and therefore unrelated #pest

06:22

*

crtdaydreams begins to wonder which jonsykkel is peered with o_O

06:25

signpost: I seem to remember one time you pasted a job offer letter into the chat?

06:28

also, signpost, best use-case I can see of your pest dns / filesharing would be the decentralization of the deedbot wot itself, i.e. pgp keys & ratings etc. distributed across pest

06:30

*

crtdaydreams wonders if that constitutes as railing an ak

06:35

no, it had come up before as a useful addition

06:36

crtdaydreams: presuambly when you initiated the peering with each person it involved passing a key through gpg, so you should know who all your direct peers are

06:38

jonsykkel: you are defined as being your own L0, and the L# is the shortest path to each node, so therefore you are not in your L2

06:41

the pest spec does support dm-ing multiple people (sending the same message as a dm to each), but I don't think this is implemented yet (?) and I don't think my IRC clients knows how to do that anyway

06:42

once that gets implemented, you could have your >2 person sidechat using multi-person dm's

06:44

(this in re. http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-26#1011613)

06:44

Logged on 2022-08-26 04:26:29 jonsykkel: somtimes it makes sense in meatspace that >2 ppl move away from group in this way

06:47

and once you get the various networks set up, it is simple enough to have one client point at multiple pest-nets, like how my client lets me connect both here and to dulapnet at the same time.

~ 26 minutes ~

07:14

PeterL: the elegance of ur definition is compelling, but i can find no historical president of anyone refering to themselves as their l0, which indicates its not in colloquial use at least

07:19

ur client could dm multi ppl, but not sure how u would tell the others to display these in same window and multidm the same ppl without clunky manual "operation of ak" or changes in spec

07:20

(not arguing for this 2 be clear, dont have any strong opinions on it. was just thinking out loud to begin with)

07:29

^ in similar vein, and trying to clarify ideas

07:35

dunno vat a good interface for such temporary sidechat could look like anyway

07:36

at least have a stronk distaste for shitcord style "250 permanent channels for discussing slightly diffrent stuffs" with associated autistic noises that appear if u "use channel wrong"

07:44

jonsykkel: think of the L# as the minimum number of hops to receive a message. If I generate a message, 0 hops are needed. A message from my L1 will have at least 1 hop, a message from my L2 will have at least 2 hops, etc.

07:44

jonsykkel: wasn't suggesting sidechat, nor neuron activation bing bong sounds for chimps

07:46

*

crtdaydreams sure as hell hopes that instances will not go beyond a taskbar highlight for dms/mentions only

07:46

s/instances/implementations

07:47

crtdadreams: shouldn't the level of notification just be a setting in your client?

07:51

PeterL: ofc, but I hold the expectation that the line between client and station will eventually be blurred, as aforementioned the irc frontend is temporary for the lack of time to write an effective gui, that and all available gui stacks appear to be shit

07:54

whether or not the udp listening socket remains daemonized in a final form would be entirely up to implementation I would expect

07:57

crtdaydreams: i meant the noises coming from the inhabitants of this particular type of sewer. "pls take this discussion to #john_deere_tractor, this is #tractor general"

07:57

jonsykkel: dickscord moderator moment

07:58

the #blatta example I used earlier was purely for illustrative purposes, but I get what you mean

07:59

sure sure

08:06

admittedly I have a dickscord toilet acc, deleted acc at one point, couldn't contact anyone and wasn't apart of #a at the time, lived on burner accs for a while (only ever use webshit interface), eventually just caved in and made another acc. it's a love-hate relationship.

08:09

it's pretty much the "uh but all muh friends use it" excuse

08:14

inb4 need new frens; yeh fair enuff.

08:14

have some old budys i spek to there too, and i can feel the jscancer taking years off my life evry time open tab

08:15

technologically inept frens is a real problem

08:15

the biggest filter to pest lol

08:16

managed to convince one guy to join me on XMPP

08:18

was great initially, but sorta drifted since, whether product of platform or project, dunno to this day

08:19

similar excuse of convenience

08:22

thankfully avoided the cesspools mentioned above, pretty much comms for people I know AFK

08:25

gtg, nite jonsykkel

08:25

o/

08:29

yep

08:29

nite

~ 2 hours 52 minutes ~

11:22

awt

Initial versions of blatta indeed supported channels. Message body included IRC formatting.

~ 56 minutes ~

12:18

i think maybe multinet is the only way to do multichannel with pest

12:19

asciilifeform

phf: afaik yes. (and was asciilifeform's orig. notion re how 'channels' oughta work)

12:21

asciilifeform

part of asciilifeform's rationale was 'it is lulzy to have dozen channels when you have 6 d00dz' but moar generally imho irc-style channels are an abstraction that glues very poorly ~on top of~ pestnet mechanics, with schisms/mergers/gags etc

12:23

yeah, dm's don't have same failover mechanisms, which come from not support >l1 altogether. but once you start baking that for multichannel you run into custodianship issues, etc

12:25

presumably you can add some kind protocol for establishing new pestnets from inside pestnet.

~ 7 hours 10 minutes ~

19:35

signpost

http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-26#1011642 << doubt it; I was self-employed for a decade.

19:35

http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-26#1011643 << >> http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-15#1009689

Logged on 2022-08-26 06:25:12 PeterL: signpost: I seem to remember one time you pasted a job offer letter into the chat?

19:36

signpost

19:36

Logged on 2022-08-26 06:28:15 crtdaydreams[jonsykkel|awt|signpost]: also, signpost, best use-case I can see of your pest dns / filesharing would be the decentralization of the deedbot wot itself, i.e. pgp keys & ratings etc. distributed across pest

19:36