#ossasepia | 2020-04-22

cruciform: don't use that old selection mechanism with # as it's not working properly - what gets selected (if anything) depends on the browser (+it requires javascript anyway...); there's a better way, as described here: http://trilema.com/2019/proper-html-linking-the-crisis-the-solution-the-resolution-conclusion/

15:12

diana_coman, will do, thanks

15:15

anyways, average people tend to be bad at ~everything,not only poker, lol

15:16

so if you only ever do the "run to be better than them", it's not much effort probably, no

15:16

nor much running, whatever the running might be about.

15:16

as eulora's motd insists: your worst enemy always slept in the same bed as you.

15:17

the JS selector reminds me, billymg: I signed the two patches that seemed settled, in http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/v/mp-wp/ ; are they suitable for you as is?

15:18

(for further context, that means the first two from http://fixpoint.welshcomputing.com/2020/selection-and-other-sundries-for-mp-wp/ )

15:24

diana_coman, kinda crazy that half of people are even worse than average! And yea, poker very much allowed me to just be good-enough; not have to grow

15:25

cruciform: well, that's if you credit a gauss curve to start with; can get even worse otherwise, heh

15:25

reckon competence is pareto?

15:26

I'd be rather hard pressed to find evident it isn't; but I admit I haven't really bothered much to fit a curve to anything

15:26

it certainly holds for poker winnings: a few players make almost all the money

15:26

sure, in school grades at any exam will follow gauss (unless cheating) but competence is a different thing

15:27

evidence* not evident

15:27

rather as expected re the few players, indeed.

15:27

yea, I was trying to find a term other than "IQ", since I gather that's bullshit

15:29

cruciform: you know, MP is right re that article being for sure the better ref (and possibly of more interest to you too).

15:30

jfw: how's the health insurance quest going?

15:31

cruciform: what's next on your list now that the 2 articles are done and published?

15:31

diana_coman: you know just what to ask about that wouldn't have been started yet!

15:32

true, I do :P

15:32

so no, not started yet.

15:33

needs a new battery to start ?

15:33

jfw: you know, it's...Wednesday, lolz.

15:34

diana_coman, I've mostly got my head round mathematical induction today - I never got the "assume n=k is true" bit (the... induction, lol): "can't just assume things in maths!"; didn't get that it's about proving that IF n=k holds, k+1 does, too

15:34

so it is. Maybe just some corrosion to clean off the contacts.

15:35

cruciform: aha, that's the point, proving the first step and then basically the fact that it's a chain

15:36

I've had enough Knuth for a bit, so gonna work on reading the logs; writing an article on "What is YH?"

15:37

"2 letters!"

15:37

lol

15:37

anyways, sounds like a reasonably balanced...diet; can even add the cheese twists then!

15:38

(and no, nothing bad with cheese twists in general, except ahem, taste one day some freshly made ones with sourdough too and then see if those M&S ones are all that great anymore, that was all)

15:38

inb8 Google Translate http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-04-22#1025016

15:38

ossabot

Logged on 2020-04-22 16:51:02 diana_coman: cruciform: you know, MP is right re that article being for sure the better ref (and possibly of more interest to you too).

15:39

well, can always add "learn a language" to the list, why not

15:39

maybe I should do the Romanian Thursdays, huh

15:39

one different language every day and that will surely take care of all and any conversation, too!

15:40

diana_coman, in other unfinished derping, I did... TWO Greek lessons with my dad before giving up

15:40

well, as I don't know your dad, I can't evaluate in any way what two lessons mean in that context

15:41

cruciform: why did you do them to start with?

15:42

I wanted to cure my ESL-ness, decided I could spend time with my dad too by learning Latin/Greek; chose Greek coz it's harder :p

15:44

eh, with languages it gets easier after the 10th or so (as I've been helpfully told when I was a kid - but it's true!)

15:44

got to conjugating my first verb (λυο τας πεδασ), and... that was a wrap

15:44

according to MP though it's women you want to spend time with to learn languages not own dad; maybe that's why it lasted for only 2 lessons, lol

15:45

Aha, I can recall reading that in the logs!

15:46

there I can't advise, but otherwise from practical experience the way to learn a language is to need it as in not have any other choice of being understood/understanding anything; works wonders!

15:46

diana_coman, guess I should move to Ancient Greece!

15:48

cruciform: wouldn't that be good, too!

15:48

but could have just asked dad to not reply in/to anything other than that; and then see how it goes, lol.

15:48

provided it's not Athens, I guess http://trilema.com/2018/democracy-sucks-the-two-thousand-four-hundred-and-change-years-old-version/

15:49

well, choose your year carefully; and everything else you get to choose, for that matter, I suppose.

15:49

diana_coman, still wouldn't solve the him-not-being-a-cute-female-tutor problem

15:50

can't solve it all, indeed

15:50

I'm a little hesitant to pop http://trilema.com/2012/cum-devii-un-jucator-de-poker-bun/ into Google Translate

15:51

yeah, unlikely to help much

15:51

so let it itch, what

15:55

Not sure how helpful it'd be to find a Romanian to translate it; would probably produce some lolz equity, at any rate

15:57

it's one of the most straightforward articles on trilema actually ; so it might work but provided you find not-an-idiot, what can I say.

15:59

diana_coman, that's the problem - I know quite a few Romanian gamblers; not-idiot is the tricky part

15:59

heh, as always

16:04

Hang on, I've read this before! http://trilema.com/2015/how-to-be-good-at-poker/

16:05

I meant to annotate it ages ago, but never got round to it

16:07

ahaha, so it is actually translated already, cool

16:07

might as well reply then to the comment and add the link

16:08

diana_coman, on it! also glad that I don't have to talk to any Romanian gamblers!

16:08

ahaha, are they any worse than generic not-good-gamblers?

16:09

(genuinely curious, not a loaded question)

16:09

they're renowned for being particularly miserable, ornery and nitty

16:09

sounds quite believable

16:09

In fact, I've only EVER seen them smile when someone they don't like is losing (not when they're winning, even)

16:10

it has a name!!! it's called "sa moara capra vecinului" (may the neighbour's goat die!)

16:11

there is a whole set of layers to that, it's not by accident

16:12

would you mind explaining the idiom?

16:14

cruciform: sure; but where to start from so it makes sense to you, hm; do you know how rural communities work esp re figuring out one's own worth ?

16:15

diana_coman, how much livestock one owns?

16:15

no, not at all

16:16

huh, look, for the short version I did already even say it on...trilema, lolz, here: http://trilema.com/2019/derpy-sluttyev-or-how-shall-i-call-this/#comment-130373

16:17

ah, so it's "no one else is doing better than I, so I'm great"?

16:18

re rural community though - it's basically through direct and continuous comparison of visible assets; in Ro the main part used to be land (because agriculture) but otherwise everything about the others' house, so yeah, nobody has taller/bigger house than mine/happier and bigger goat than mine, hence I'm ...the greatest

16:18

not even "great", it doesn't exist as such, it's about the greatest

16:19

and sure, easier to kill the neighbour's goat than to get your own (at least from some perspective)

16:19

cruciform: but you can link it back to "being better than the average player", see?

16:22

diana_coman, still here; chewing through it

16:23

basically in a proper rural community, there is a very visible and easily measured hierarchy anyway; and the least capable ones that get bitter will tend to go this way - since they can't (or internalised that they can't) get ahead, then focus on keeping the others behind (so that they can get ahead, sort of thing)

16:24

diana_coman, sounds very socialist

16:24

ahaha, how is that?

16:25

well, given that humans are guassian AT LEAST, those that *can't* want to lower the bar; bring those that *can* down to their level/pretend equality

16:26

cruciform: how do you link that to socialism though?

16:26

no, it's not pretend to equality

16:26

it's very much hierarchy and getting ahead, nothing to do with equality; they are not aiming to be equal to the neighbour, not at all

16:27

I can't have a goat like my neighbour does; I'll kill his and we can be equal

16:27

neah; they want the neighbour to fail and the more he fails, the better, it's about being *better than* the neighbour, not equal

16:28

and even more/deeper in the end - about the fact that if the neighbour fails, then own fail is vindicated aka "see, I told you you'd fail"

16:29

it's the lazy/incompetent's form of "cut-throat competition" really: he'll win by holding everyone back.

16:29

isn't that similar to the socialist mindset? lowering the bar so everyone can "compete"?

16:30

or whatever, insecure I suppose, in a more generous light

16:30

cruciform: you are mixing there bits and pieces; this whole rural stuff comes from way before socialism/communism

16:31

diana_coman, yea; it's been a long day - induction has worn out my powers of deduction

16:31

sure, there is easily an added strata there because in socialism/communism the "getting ahead" in the party hierachy tends to work more on those lines than on competence, but it's another thing

16:32

ahaha; it's also not the sort of proof-by-induction problem !

16:33

well, unless one ties all his neighbour's goats together and pushes the first one off the mountain

16:33

funnily enough, despite the idiom, it's more often cows and sheep rather than goats that people used to have, but anyways

16:34

also, you see, the whole satisfaction is in the neighbour's fail, preferably without a (visible) helping hand

16:34

eh, the intricacies of petty bitterness

16:34

not worth all that much thinking of it really

16:35

it's been very instructive, thanks!

16:35

np

16:35

cruciform: out of curiosity, what age group are those goat-haters you know?

16:36

I've never asked 'em, and their dour countenance might make 'em look older, but I'd guess 31-45

16:37

no very young or very old

16:37

(there are loads of young Romanian staff at casinos, though)

16:38

huh, I expected even younger (not very old because they wouldn't be there, yeah); possibly they had to take the time to accumulate that bitterness and get convinced enough they can't do anything other than the goat-hating, perhaps.

16:38

I'd imagine young Romanians wouldn't have had time to build up capital to gamble with?

16:39

I have sudden trouble imagining "Romanians" and "building capital" in the same sentence, lol

16:39

though, I'm not sure Romania is particularly poorer than anywhere else in Europe

16:39

perhaps; I don't really know about the gambling world.

16:40

well, those you find here are certainly not the poorest, not even by far

16:41

anyways, they gloriously keep alive the goat-hating tradition, what can I say.

16:41

well, given that the two I'm most familiar with are MP and yourself, that's true!

16:42

ahaha, you just said you knew loads of Romanians around the casinos, what

16:42

I know their faces; not much more - they tend to hang out exclusively with each other

16:43

but no, seriously - no idea if you know for reals what dirt-poor means, but ...it exists; it's true that it's not the sort of sordid inner-city-poverty (mainly because of no city) but still.

16:44

sure, it exists in other parts of Europe too, there is that

16:44

I saw something like it in Serbia - people living in an abondoned... hospital, I think it was?

16:44

(and probably it'll grow, too)

16:46

I'm really curious to see just how fucked the economy is over the next year or so

16:46

the thing is - getting on a plane already requires *some* resources ; even if they may be borrowed - having who to borrow them from is a resource too and so on.

16:47

cruciform: ahaha; your curiosity shall be fully satisfied, I'm quite sure; but do mind what you wish for!

16:47

lol, true!

16:47

I'd imagine things like gambling will take quite a hit?

16:48

re gambling I have no idea really (as I said, it's a world I don't know much about so can't really comment on it either)

16:49

and I'd say it's not gambling per se that will take any hit - it's possibly though what you know as gambling aka those specific casinos

16:49

like with everything else

16:49

Poker buddies are worried about their uninsured deposits at said casinos, right now

16:51

usually the times of trouble simply show what was just pretense (which falls) and what not (which stands, though it might not be in the open, sure)

16:51

eh, and the insurance will do what? lol

16:52

well, here's to standing!

16:52

cheers!

16:53

anyways, I'll call it a day too, good night

16:53

and wrt insurance, methinks this is a big can o' worms

16:53