Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2019-10-02 | 2019-10-04 → ↓
07:33 diana_coman !o uptime
07:33 ossabot diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 0d 23h 27m
~ 3 hours 20 minutes ~
10:53 diana_coman !o help
10:53 ossabot diana_coman: my valid commands are: src, uptime, seen-anywhere, help, s, version, seen
10:53 diana_coman !o version
10:53 ossabot I am bot version 597604.
~ 1 hours 55 minutes ~
12:49 auctionbot B#1061 O=161mn LB=151mn E=2019-10-03 05:55:34.297573 (5h55) >>> 1209 Wired Filthy Fiats, WU is fine but not preferred
12:49 auctionbot --- end of auction list, 151mn total bids ---
~ 1 hours 5 minutes ~
13:55 diana_coman thimbronion: how did you order that list of irc networks? the top100 from netsplit.de seems different (possibly changed since you looked but seems rather unlikely to have changed that much)
~ 1 hours 8 minutes ~
15:04 thimbronion diana_coman I've been working on them from top to bottom according to the source, but I haven't explicitly tried to keep them in any order. Last night I was considering at least putting them in order of number of servers, with those having linking applications available at the the top.
~ 58 minutes ~
16:02 diana_coman thimbronion: makes sense.
16:02 diana_coman fwiw that oftc thing seems quite approachable, from among the "big" ones
16:14 thimbronion I recall Undernet seeming approachable as well. EsperNet also looked good, but it is on the smaller end at 12 servers.
16:17 diana_coman thimbronion: you need number of servers vs users I'd say ie number of servers by itself is not telling much
16:17 diana_coman maybe they need more servers because they have too few or something
16:18 thimbronion diana_coman: Ah yes that makes sense.
16:18 diana_coman thimbronion: so maybe order the list based on what you think ie "seems most likely to accept my server"
16:19 diana_coman once you have at least a few that seem on first pass as a possible option, we can go in and talk to them.
16:21 thimbronion diana_coman: so should I finish researching the remaining 65 or do an ordering now and start talking to people?
16:21 thimbronion or both...
16:22 thimbronion It's quite an archeological dig. Most website findings are at the mid 2000s layer.
~ 56 minutes ~
17:19 diana_coman thimbronion: if you have already a few (2-4 at least) that seem in the least approachable, just connect to them first and look around and then start talking to them; let me know what/which ones you picked and I can come in too if it helps
17:19 diana_coman yeah, looking at the list does reveal lots of "dead but listed" pretty much
17:22 asciilifeform diana_coman: fixed today ugly bugola in reader.py ( thrd here )
17:22 snsabot (trilema) 2019-10-03 asciilifeform: ACHTUNG, PANZERS! logotron www updated !
17:23 diana_coman asciilifeform: aite, I'll manually change it for now.
17:24 asciilifeform ty diana_coman
17:25 asciilifeform i really must get rid of the positional print statements in that thing
17:25 asciilifeform they're nuffin but trouble. ( instead string concats like normal people )
17:26 diana_coman should be on, let me know if you see any weird
17:26 asciilifeform diana_coman: loox proper.
17:28 asciilifeform only lobbes nao remains w/ the barf, i expect he'll fix when wakes up.
17:28 diana_coman thimbronion: re continuing the list - in principle it's worth doing anyway because you'll need it later in any case; but it can be done at a slower pace/don't need to wait for it to be complete before starting talking to them
17:28 diana_coman thimbronion: and where "archaeological", write it as a note "not updated since 2012" or whatever
17:29 diana_coman the point is: document the thing; here we looked at all sorts and this is what was found.
17:31 asciilifeform diana_coman: 1 moar thing, i have an autosyncer, but wrote it while ill, so to avoid similar headaches will post it 1ce fully alive
17:33 asciilifeform ( semi-auto, to be pedantic. takes a cutoff point; drops errything in all chans after that point; then walks list of e.g. http://logs.nosuchlabs.com , http://logs.ossasepia.com , fetches errything in all chans from each, then eats ~the longest~ )
17:33 thimbronion diana_coman: Ok. Perhaps it makes sense add some documentation discussing the general quality of the results at the beginning of the post and also add a "notes" line to each entry?
17:34 asciilifeform diana_coman: this aint ideal -- i can picture cases where it cannot be used , if multiple bots dropped at various times -- but beats the shit outta manual munging
17:42 diana_coman thimbronion: sounds good, yes.
17:43 diana_coman asciilifeform: sure, I'll have a look when you post it but take your time.
17:44 diana_coman asciilifeform: re longest, I'd say it should prolly look at a diff or similar though because in some cases one might need a mixture of them, ugh
17:46 diana_coman tbh at resync time the usual headache is when/if lines are missed in the middle ie need to drop some & then update; but anyways, as starter it's better than nothing, for sure
~ 2 hours 15 minutes ~
20:01 asciilifeform diana_coman: this is correct, and in fact is moar serious, from mathematical pov, problem , than appears at 1st glance
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20:05 asciilifeform diana_coman: my draft semi-auto syncer simply asks for a tuple chan,line that represents the point of break; then takes its timestamp, drops ~everything~ in db that postdates that time; then proceeds to algo described earlier.
20:06 asciilifeform ( there is no attempt to mathematically derive the 'holes', it will work strictly if one of the N given peers contains the complete log from T to present time )
20:07 asciilifeform if the proggy were built into bot, there would -- in theory -- be no need to do the drop, it could run as part of the reconnector sequence. however it is impossible to rule out the possibility that a line is spoken ~while~ the syncer syncs. therefore i'ma leave it as a manual crank for the foreseeable future.
20:07 asciilifeform fwiw i suspect that this mechanism will be obsolete when we get sumthing like a irc net going.
20:09 asciilifeform diana_coman: there is 1 potential point of danger re the described syncer -- if the 'break line' chosen was ~itself~ imported from another bot, it may result in unwanted droppage ( there is no guarantee of monotonicity of timestamps except as written by ~one particular~ bot, atm )
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20:10 asciilifeform i'm thinking of having it display the lines to be dropped, and prompt, prior to firing, atm cannot think of a cleaner pill.
~ 20 minutes ~
20:30 diana_coman if anyone wants to follow this particular thread, the discussion of proposed sync is in #trilema as it belongs better there.
20:30 ossabot (trilema) 2019-10-03 asciilifeform: folx w/ mathematical inclinations, invited to comment re auto-sync algo described in #o .
20:30 snsabot Logged on 2019-10-03 15:46:07 asciilifeform: diana_coman: this is correct, and in fact is moar serious, from mathematical pov, problem , than appears at 1st glance
20:41 thimbronion diana_coman: when it comes to speaking with server admins on IRC, I am not sure what approach to take. From looking at most applications, linkers appear to be in the position of having to sell themselves, and I admit that sales is a field in which I have much to learn.
20:42 thimbronion diana_coman: alternatively, I could just approach it from an information gathering perspective. "Hi, is there any interest in new servers, what are the chances of the application being accepted, etc."
20:42 diana_coman thimbronion: we are not really selling anything given that they aren't paying, you know?
20:43 diana_coman we are offering them a chance; they are free to be idiots and miss out on it, just like freenode did
20:43 diana_coman thimbronion: but yes, I know you aren't yet clear on this part yet
20:43 thimbronion diana_coman: this is true. And this being true, I find their attitude perplexing.
20:44 diana_coman thimbronion: and no, don't approach them begging/probing because you won't be able to get out of that initial framing
20:44 diana_coman and it's not helping
20:44 diana_coman thimbronion: their attitude is their problem, really; it's perplexing only if you look at it with some pre-conceived expectations really
20:45 diana_coman so don't; you focus on what *you* offer and otherwise let the rest of the world figure out for themselves what they are going to do about it and how they are going to handle it
20:45 diana_coman if they handle it idiotically fine, it's their loss anyway.
20:45 thimbronion Many, many Bob Becks.
20:46 diana_coman plus you get clear proof that they are idiots, what.
20:47 thimbronion diana_coman: May I convey myself as representing tbf?
20:47 diana_coman thimbronion: let me know what networks you choose, maybe dig out the old freenode-managed-to-reject-server thing too , for some idea
20:48 diana_coman thimbronion: tbf is currently on a rather unclear footing really, not sure how that helps; you *are* representing TMSR
20:50 diana_coman thimbronion: however, before asking them re federating server, the first step is to just join some chans and look around, read for a bit
20:51 thimbronion diana_coman: Got it. The few chans I've joined so far have been almost completely dead for days.
20:51 diana_coman thimbronion: I suspect that's extremely true for...most of them, myeah
20:52 diana_coman what networks did you join?
20:52 thimbronion IRCNet and p2p-net.
20:56 diana_coman thimbronion: looking at your list, I see undernet, dalnet, ircnet, oftc, europnet maybe
20:56 diana_coman iirc there was efnet mentioned too, though I don't see it in your list
20:57 diana_coman europnet supposedly aims specifically to "integrate across europe" so it would be particularly lulzy if they ...refuse to integrate
20:57 diana_coman thimbronion: what software are you going to run? how well do you know it? do you have any experience with it?
20:59 thimbronion diana_coman: yes I need to re-add and document EFNet. I beleive I couldn't find the linking application or linking was discouraged, but as I said I will add it in with documentation.
20:59 thimbronion diana_coman: which software? IRC client or IRC server?
21:00 diana_coman thimbronion: the server; you'll need to run it and in time bridge it to other networks supposedly, no?
21:04 thimbronion diana_coman: I haven't made that determination. I ran my own ircd years ago, but I don't recall which and I was pretty much the only person using it. So my experience is almost nil. The quickest (though perhaps not wisest) approach would be to run the server of the first network that allows us to link.
21:05 thimbronion Then later select perhaps the most robust irc server (what the criteria for that would be I don't yet know) and start that running and then build the bridge from the network's custom ircd to our own.
21:05 diana_coman thimbronion: the thing is that you are in a much better position to talk to them if you already actually have your server basically
21:06 diana_coman ie I have this server and chans and people, active unlike your shit, do you federate my server or should I find others?
21:07 thimbronion diana_coman: I recall many applications requiring that you run their own custom server.
21:07 diana_coman thimbronion: and given how ~dead they seem in general + what passes for "awesome software solutions" nowadays, I half-expect "their custom ircd" to not even run on a sane tmsr environment
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21:08 diana_coman thimbronion: that's still rather 2nd consideration as far as I see it; ie you already have something and are reaching out; they can then require all sorts and you'll consider
21:08 thimbronion diana_coman: related: I was able to build DALNet's ircd, but haven't run it yet.
21:09 thimbronion diana_coman: also many networks want you to run ntpd
21:10 thimbronion speaking of sanity
21:12 diana_coman thimbronion: the point is: don't let apparent requests deter you upfront anyway; but to be able to talk to them from a proper position, you do need to know very well what you are running there and what you are willing to do or not; but let *them* ask if they want some nonsense, anyway
21:12 diana_coman thimbronion: so why not run that dalnet ircd anyway?
21:12 thimbronion diana_coman: it has the size of dalnet going for it.
21:12 diana_coman for that matter not even sure - how would they exactly check that you are running "their ircd"?
21:13 diana_coman thimbronion: you know, the trouble with "size of dalnet" is pretty much the trouble with "1mn unique visitors" on blogs
21:13 diana_coman ie sure, numbers; whether they add up however to any real activity is still dubious
21:13 thimbronion diana_coman: according to the applications, there is a 1 week or whatever link evaluation period
21:14 thimbronion diana_coman: I don't know what kind of evaluating happens though
21:14 diana_coman thimbronion: eh, so let them evaluate and if anything speak up, etc
21:14 diana_coman anyway, not yet there
21:14 diana_coman the point is: you *will* need to get to know that software, whatever you pick
21:15 diana_coman so if you want to pick dalnet's, on whatever ground, fine; if you want to pick something else, fine;
21:15 diana_coman but in any case, you'll need to *bridge* it
21:15 diana_coman so avoiding this in the 1st step is not really earning you anything
21:17 thimbronion diana_coman: So let's say I build the bridge first. How do I test it "in wartime conditions"? I guess I would need to run my own copy of whatever other network's ircd somewhere else and test against it, and perhaps write some bots to do stress testing.
21:20 diana_coman thimbronion: first you pick and stand up some ircd; then you go as representative of tmsr and armed with all the logs re activity + chans + users and talk to networks, see which one is saner; they can come with all sorts of requests but you can consider them first, it's not like you have to do anything they ask
21:22 thimbronion diana_coman: ok, understood.
21:22 diana_coman thimbronion: re testing in wartime conditions - this is valid for anything anyway ie if you want to do proper testing upfront, you still need the whole orchestra, no/
21:23 diana_coman alternatively, you can say well, there's no wartime-testing better than the war itself and plunge in but no idea how hairy it can/may get; I don't really have experience running ircd
21:24 diana_coman thimbronion: does that make sense? is there some bit/part that you'd rather approach differently (how)?
21:26 diana_coman thimbronion: for that matter re testing, after standing up ircd, you mirror the tmsr chans here with the help of existing loggers for instance
21:27 thimbronion diana_coman: when you say "logs re activity + chans + users" are the the logs etc of the targeted network, or our own?
21:28 diana_coman thimbronion: our own; I doubt they even have logs, do they?
21:29 thimbronion diana_coman: initially I though I was to log some of their most active channels, etc. to have own record of the size/activity on the selected network.
21:30 diana_coman but after all, the situation is precisely this: we want to move away from freenode and we have the resources to stand up our own server; we think network X is sensible and won't turn down some additional resources, so how about they link our server ?
21:30 diana_coman thimbronion: ah, no; I doubt that's any use really
21:32 diana_coman you know, that list of requirements and so on is mostly for you to do an initial filtering of the most obviously-idiotic; but otherwise let *them* point you at it and request whatever; you have the stuff and make them an offer, that's about it
21:32 diana_coman and obv, you'll blog the result either way.
21:33 diana_coman thimbronion: does this clear up a bit the "not sales" part at least
21:33 diana_coman ?
21:36 thimbronion diana_coman: Sorry for the delay, trying to restate in own words.
21:37 thimbronion diana_coman: actully, nm: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-03#1004538 sums it up quite well.
21:37 ossabot Logged on 2019-10-03 17:30:35 diana_coman: but after all, the situation is precisely this: we want to move away from freenode and we have the resources to stand up our own server; we think network X is sensible and won't turn down some additional resources, so how about they link our server ?
21:38 thimbronion diana_coman: so yes, this makes sense.
21:39 diana_coman thimbronion: good; ask/speak up if there is/appears later anything else that doesn't make full sense to you because you do need to have a very clear idea of it before you can successfully talk about it, ofc
21:40 thimbronion diana_coman: ok, I will.
21:40 diana_coman thimbronion: re ircd, it's really up to you re version or whatever but honestly, I'd rather choose the smallest/most minimal thing to start with, just to be able to figure it out
21:41 diana_coman iirc it's supposed to be modular so in principle you can add to it as needed?
21:41 * diana_coman doesn't know ircd in any real detail
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21:47 thimbronion diana_coman: I, too, do not yet know ircd or the protocol itself in much detail. Small minimal makes sense from that perspective. If it turns out it's missing something every network seems to need, we can re-evaluate or add to the bridge.
21:49 diana_coman thimbronion: dunno if that irc services thing is of any use/interest/maybe help still; e.g. achurch.org/services/docs-5.1.24/tech/5.html
21:52 thimbronion diana_coman: noted, thankyou. I will review it.
~ 1 hours 28 minutes ~
23:21 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-03#1004552 << last time i picked up the subj (ftr broke teeth) found that most (all?) of the major nets use some nonstandard 'embrace&extend' crock of shit, rather than irc per strict rfc-specsheet. (which is not to say that cannot be sewn w/ skilled hands. simply, may not suffice to 'just pick a ircd' naively)
23:21 snsabot Logged on 2019-10-03 17:25:49 diana_coman: doesn't know ircd in any real detail
23:22 asciilifeform in some cases may be possible to 'cheat' and stick to rfc-traditional protocol. ( as i did in re client vs fleanode. i refused to use fleanode's proprietary knob for confirming success of joining chans, instead simply inserted delay )
23:23 asciilifeform ( represented by 'join_t' knob in bot config )
23:26 asciilifeform fwiw tho, mp's orig. proposal was to obtain whatever ircd was distributed by ea. heathen net, and patch'em to interoperate together after.
23:28 asciilifeform ( if any of these prove egregiously broken, can simply omit that one )
23:28 snsabot Logged on 2019-10-03 16:51:36 diana_coman: thimbronion: and given how ~dead they seem in general + what passes for "awesome software solutions" nowadays, I half-expect "their custom ircd" to not even run on a sane tmsr environment
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