#ossasepia | 2019-09-02

diana_coman: review posted, task list i will post tom first thing, guess i also wanted to discuss the reading list.

~ 2 hours 29 minutes ~

05:05

shrysr: why not publish that essay you gpg-ed?

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05:06

http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-02#1000931 - so discuss it, lol; and better a few days before the deadline.

05:06

Logged on 2019-09-02 02:51:39 shrysr: diana_coman: review posted, task list i will post tom first thing, guess i also wanted to discuss the reading list.

~ 4 hours 28 minutes ~

09:34

!o uptime

09:34

diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 0d 15h 20m

~ 1 hours 21 minutes ~

10:55

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-02#1000932 << original plan was to publish the baseline section alone and use the remaining as fodder for thought. I think it is unethical to oublicly talk ill especially of my current salt-mine... everything being said and holding as 'truth' - i think i should not be ungrateful that i Do have 'a' job... the logical retort - then quit or fuck off! is not

10:55

snsabot

Logged on 2019-09-02 05:05:08 diana_coman: shrysr: why not publish that essay you gpg-ed?

10:55

lost on me. Atleast a large portion of the things about my earlier salt mines were actually flung out at people there as an attempt to rectify the problems..(not as much here due to volatile nature evident).. but even so - there were some good people and good things everywhere (maybe because I tried not to biased) - it feels like a disservice to talk ill. I am open to my own improvement in a public forum -

10:55

but it can't be right to diss the world i was/am in -- after all - what effective action / result did I take or achieve except running away to another country / salt-mine or 'fighting' for 'correct' exposure to do the job right and only being able to achieve it partially ? I did not stay there make it my life's mission to fix the root cause did i?

10:58

shrysr: I don't quite follow the life mission thing; the point is not "to talk ill of X"; the point is to be able to talk the truth for and about yourself, full stop.

10:58

if the truth involves "ill of X", note that the ill is a property of X *whether you say it publicly or not*

10:59

it's not like it appears there *because you said it* publicly

11:00

for that matter nobody says you shouldn't add the good parts you find, sure.

11:01

even leaving aside for a bit the fundamental issues touched above, here's the concrete trouble now:

11:02

how exactly am I to give you feedback on that, especially any detailed feedback?

11:02

through gpg again so that next time a guy comes in with similar outlook I just have to do it all again?

11:04

basically as long as you keep it private, I can read it and it possibly helps in that I'll take it into consideration, sure; but detailed feedback makes sense only for publicly stated matter really or otherwise I need to adopt you or something.

11:07

shrysr: in case it does any good, here's an instance of "don't actually want to write this, but it has to be written" + about as purposefully balanced as I could make it: http://ossasepia.com/2016/03/28/when-the-messenger-shoots-back/

11:08

not to mention it's actually a significant bit of history there so it's not a loss in any case.

11:13

yes. I agree about property of X, and that I shd have added the good parts (which I'm certainly not ignorant of - as it seems necessary to preserve sanity as well - the problem also seemed that I fabricated a decent number of the 'good' parts with the resources available.. and fighting) but describing somebody as semi-literate and volatile and devoid of standards --- is not the way I'd put it to current

11:13

salt mine without another offer in hand... i.e i'd have to be 'gentle' or whatever. and it felt like being two-faced.. Re: feedback - how about I publish the baseline section?

11:17

shrysr: you are saying that you are not yet free to talk, ok; publish then what you can say and you'll get feedback on that, yes.

11:18

for all the talk of freedom, it's mind boggling how little freedom there's actually left around, huh.

11:19

shrysr: the moment you *have to consider* the possible reaction of X or Y or even readers in general, you are 1. not free 2. writing less well than you could (because you are focusing on something other than what you are trying to say).

11:31

yes.... absolutely agreed. i hate that I am constrained. despite all the 'soft treading' - my assessment is that I am rather direct when i communicate at work - and I've even been told at current salt mine that big kahuna avoids me because I don't sugar coat much. 6 months into the first job of my life i told the HOD during review that the next level of colleagues was at 6 years of exp - and that in 6

11:31

years - i would expect myself to be light years ahead of them .... i did not care about being fired back then - but as it turned out - that guy was awesome and understood my message. I believe I was just lucky. Over time I've found that being categorical -- creates even more alienation, and its only sometimes on specific issues that it realy works. it feels like ppl are more content wasting time and being

11:31

offended and then attacking in every possible unconnected disgusting way to harm - for what? because i was honest?

11:37

shrysr: hmmm, it's being categorical *without having gained the authority* for it.

11:38

think of it this way: if you enter someone's house and start telling them that a painting is horrible - you may be honest and even right about it but whether they'd thank you for it or throw you out depends on whether you are just a guest there or an expert called in to evaluate the painting

11:40

sure, you may argue that you *are the expert* and they just don't know it, so it's their stupidity at play but that doesn't quite let you off the hook either for not knowing your role.

11:42

shrysr: fwiw your essay *does* have a rather glaring lack of self-reflection there too; i.e. there's a lot about what is wrong with others, not that much re what you got wrong though.

11:47

and perhaps even more importantly: you tend to state your desires there in negative terms of what is rather than in positive terms of what you want i.e. you tend to say "that (which is/happens) is not acceptable" instead of "I want X"

11:49

bitterness doesn't help you especially once/when you try to move forwards so forget about it when you are trying to figure out what you want: state instead clearly and in as much detail as you can figure out what is precisely that is most important to you.

11:55

and any negatives should really be about what you can't tolerate because that's an important limit, arguable more important even than what you want.

11:55

arguably*

11:59

the above assuming that you know enough to want what you actually need, which is not all that clear so far.

~ 21 minutes ~

12:21

idk if all that i can't tolerate and everything i've done is because of an idealistic view point driving a lack of acceptance of perceived irrelevant norms, inept practices and people. The overarching argument against my thoughts is that the business is older than me and alive and so why change anything 'for the better'? the painting is what it is - but if that painting affected my job and how well i could

12:21

do it - why not ask an explanation? I don't want a thank you - I want a valid defence of a practice or role definition that makes me concede I am mistaken/short sighted, and if I am - then help me not be so too. I don't want you to accept the words coming out my mouth on any authority even if i had it - and I am the first to admit I was 'born yesterday'. I would argue that my self reflection pushed me to

12:21

change lines - abandon a subject i loved because the industry 'used the subject' in a limited sense constrained perhaps by money or short sightedness or whatever. and then shift again because i could not access 'repositories' of knowledge that seemed normally available to people in the 'right place', i.e out west (ppl at the same level of role btw, who I worked with everyday).

12:33

shrysr: not sure what you are answering there; e.g. where was "not ask for an explanation"? that aside and fwiw, the "offshoring" practice is alive and well in programming too and well spread in same way for the same reasons (i.e. India and Romania too are prime locations for it, sure).

12:34

note also that part of the reason why those are prime locations for it is exactly found in what *they* are; not at all in the West being mean and whatnot.

12:36

but I think you are sliding rather off course here i.e. is this part very relevant to you currently?

~ 37 minutes ~

13:13

I'm trying to distill the fundamental nature of the problem I face and thus clarify what i want/don't want since - it is not all that clear. All i want is : to use my brain for intellectual work in a field wherein - i can learn what i think I need without being terribly constrained by roles, resources and norms to the point of suffocation. eg I *can* learn about docker on my own, even if i am a dev cog in

13:13

a big codebase. I don't have to beg for resources to do so at salt-mine or keep 'fighting' or spend 'years' pursuing what I view as simple things. I want my chosen field to be one which is 'popular' in the sense - not restricted to an 'elite' or specific category of salt-mines. it is relevant because:- i'm not doing what i want /need ... my focus is plit - and I need to figure out where to go and plan to

13:13

gather the knowledge I need to break into another field. This field was identified as data science, as a subset of computer science with hte consideration that it was feasible to break into - and there is still relevance w.r.t eulora. Now - the doubt is whether that choice was sound and whether it makes better sense to choose something more relevant to the work I can do here - related to info security /

13:13

bitcoin etc which can be refined. Say i need some compTIA etc etc crap - i can formulate a plan - eg get ready to pursue relevant cybersecurity firms in 6 months with an actual knowledge base while having researched wtf they want.

13:23

shrysr: the significant bit you are misjudging in the above is what outside-tmsr companies do (or even more pointedly what they do NOT do).

13:24

for your goals of intellectually stimulating work and access to resources and relevancy, there is PLENTY in tmsr, more than you can currently eat.

13:25

the extent to which you need those "companies" is really subsistence atm, for lack of being in a better position but that's also about as much as you can get from them and you need to make sure that you don't pay more than its worth.

13:26

that's pretty much what lobbes was saying re "excel jokey" http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-29#1000828

13:26

Logged on 2019-08-29 23:32:46 lobbes: very glad to be free of that work. It was mentally stimulating, but my job now as an "excel jockey" consumes a good % less of my time

13:28

in simplest of terms: the future is here; the past is there; straddling the 2 is the hardest thing to do and the biggest danger is that you fall on the past side and can't make it up on to the surface again, let alone further to the other side.

~ 3 hours 18 minutes ~

16:47

shrysr: are you stuck?

16:54

!o uptime

16:54

diana_coman: time since my last reconnect : 0d 22h 40m

~ 49 minutes ~

17:43

diana_coman: kind of. I have no doubt abt plenty being at tmsr, and I view it as even more than a long term commitment - a way of thinking and doing and more. The problem lies with improving subsistence, and also changing my field - as i think another such mech engg company - even with loads better env/pay is not gonna solve my problem. its like thinking of code... security.. technology..algos...blah blah

17:43

while holding a wrench in my hand - thereby making me less than my best at both.

17:48

shrysr: hm, how about "your best" rather than "your best at X" ?

17:48

out of curiosity: since you studied in the UK, did you try to get a job in the UK ?

17:53

i did...very briefly. All i wanted was to do CFD / Design... i did not care abt wanting to be in india v/s UK or wherever then. I got close to an offer of a 'cost engineer', where I was told - "we did our designs etc 25 years ago... don't do much of the fancy bullshit you are talking about.. dont probably care either"... i went back home.

17:57

shrysr: the trouble is that no non-tmsr workplace will match/support your learning here (because if it did, it ...would join really)

17:59

i.e. as long as you say you need a job there, you will have some degree of split no matter what you choose; the "best option" is one that eats up as little as possible of your time and brain power, so that you can pour it where it matters and hopefully advance fastest

18:02

that being said, breaks also have their own role so it's not really healthy/most efficient to do 100% of your time just one thing anyway.

18:03

i'm only looking at aligning the overall field --- not actual quality or even type of activities. i.e dropping the wrench and thinking all the time abt much more *related* "blah blah" -- let the fucking slave masters do what they want... TBH - i've usually been able to spend a larger % of time experimenting with my own very indirectly related ideas and getting slave shit with minimal time. I literally

18:04

learnt how to use Emacs at my last job...

18:07

shrysr: hmmmm, you can try the approach of getting paid to learn what you want, there is that (because at some point I practiced it) but other than the fact that I pulled that off, I'm not sure how to guide someone else exactly to do it

18:08

my point above re being the best, full stop, was that "unrelated" stuff is not "wrong" or hurting your progress just because it is unrelated

18:13

and furthermore, the trouble is that it's precisely a programming job that is more likely to leave you without much energy and time for anything else; it happened already to several people and even quite senior ones.

18:14

basically if I were to recommend a job for subsistence to someone I'd much rather say gardening than programming - for one thing it doubles as keeping fit and for the other it probably creates *more* appetite for using the brain afterwards (through sheer boredom/frustration if nothing else)

18:15

lmao

18:15

:)) nice.

18:16

so there: have you tried canada-gardening? lolz

18:20

shrysr: do you draw/enjoy graphics?

18:22

i have done nothing for the past 2 years except smoke weed to stop myself going crazy, applying to jobs... and 'learning god forsaken data science'.... and desperately trying to find stability. before the plunge from one hell to another possibly deeper hell - i did have a 'hazy' dream of owning my own little garden. However - i am rather terrified of/disgusted by insects so it may not be great... but then

18:23

i've heard of micro gardens @ home.. lol.

18:26

shrysr: ugh, better pluck out weeds than smoking them, lol; but seriously, stop fucking your own brains with that shit.

18:26

sure!! before i took up engineering - i wanted to my bachelor of arts :)) my dad i guess told me nicely to 'fuck off'..i switched to engg suddenly realising it is about 'creating'... then last 2 years of graduation degree - i spent all my time preparing for a masters in 'product design'... essentially requiring to sketch out product ideas... before i found computational fucking fluid dynamics in the last

18:26

semester and thought i can draw whenever and anyway the drawings never look like the final product --- and CFD was the golden answer.

18:27

actually - i did stop. precisely 2-3 weeks back. you can take credit for that.

18:29

shrysr: good for you.

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18:30

shrysr: re graphics, it's not an idle question at all; and if it really rocks your boat, there's a lot of "CS" in "graphics"

↖

18:32

consider the 2 paragraphs here for instance http://ossasepia.com/2019/06/30/notes-on-graphics-for-eulora/

18:41

shrysr: and (finally found it!) this: http://trilema.com/2013/statements-regarding-the-mmorpg-under-development-i-v/

18:42

shrysr: and do learn to acknowledge stuff! e.g. "reading" "got it", *something*.

18:43

as in?

18:43

shrysr: hm?

18:43

acknowledge as in ? where did i miss ?

18:45

above and earlier; e.g. when I prodded you if you were stuck - you should have said something, not just left /got into thinking quietly without any feedback/ack first

18:46

if you need time to process/digest something, say it, sure; just say it though and ideally with some sort of time frame when you're likely to get back with some sort of follow-up

18:47

I prodded you this time but what if/when I don't;

18:47

and above re the links @ graphic

18:47

graphics*

18:49

"Thursday, 27 June, Year 5 d.Tr" --- what year does that imply and why ?

18:50

asciilifeform

shrysr: iirc it's an ancient running gag on mp's site, involving hindu gods..

18:51

asciilifeform

yr 0 iirc is '07

18:51

shrysr: lol, that's MP's fun+disdain(+narcissism I guess) re when he started aka romanian online that was ~inexistent; anyway, you have the actual year in the link

18:55

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-02#1001011 >> a lot like standing on a needle most of the time - but yes... i dont like to call myself an almost junkie anymore... i hope it stays good.

18:55

snsabot

Logged on 2019-09-02 18:29:00 diana_coman: shrysr: good for you.

18:56