Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2014-03-16 | 2014-03-18 → ↓
00:11 assbot [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 50 @ 0.00511804 = 0.2559 BTC [-] {2}
00:23 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4496 @ 0.00088989 = 4.0009 BTC [-] {2}
00:33 BingoBoingo http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&type=submission&id=3413577
00:33 ozbot Bitcoin Barron Challenges Berkshire - Slashdot
00:34 BingoBoingo Let's get news of the berkshire bet on /.
00:35 Diablo-D3 people read /.?
00:35 Diablo-D3 just put it on hn
00:36 BingoBoingo OF course people read /. WTF is HN?
~ 15 minutes ~
00:52 artifexd "All email received unencrypted is automatically deleted unread." <- Should there be a comma between "deleted" and "unread"?
00:54 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 9 @ 0.05259833 = 0.4734 BTC [+] {2}
01:03 Duffer1 i would, dunno if it's grammatically necessary though
01:07 Mats_cd03 barron?
01:08 Mats_cd03 what are you, illiterate
01:08 BingoBoingo Mats_cd03: It's the fancy spelling
01:08 BingoBoingo Twice the R's twice the poweRR
01:08 Mats_cd03 google doesnt think so
01:09 BingoBoingo Google sucks
01:11 BingoBoingo Also, slipping typos past /. editors is a thrill
01:18 Mats_cd03 fuck you
01:18 Mats_cd03 cancer
01:19 Mats_cd03 :(
01:25 joecool <Diablo-D3> people read /.? < the english language is tricky on this point, it is true that people have read /. however I do not think people still read /.
01:26 joecool also wtf is HN
01:26 Diablo-D3 joecool: read as still read
01:26 Diablo-D3 news.ycombinator.com
01:26 joecool o hacker news
01:33 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52805 @ 0.00089261 = 47.1343 BTC [+] {4}
01:43 dub !ticker mp s.mpoe
01:43 assbot [MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.00079506 / 0.00083849 / 0.0008949 (798560 shares, 669.59 BTC), 7D: 0.00079084 / 0.00083345 / 0.0008949 (8266767 shares, 6,889.96 BTC), 30D: 0.000745 / 0.00085513 / 0.0008982 (30247797 shares, 25,866.00 BTC)
01:44 dub wat
01:44 BingoBoingo Roller coaster day
01:56 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 3 @ 0.06899866 = 0.207 BTC [-]
01:57 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 63 @ 0.006 = 0.378 BTC [-] {2}
01:58 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06899865 = 0.345 BTC [-]
01:59 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 80 @ 0.005965 = 0.4772 BTC [-] {2}
~ 20 minutes ~
02:19 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5300 @ 0.00089405 = 4.7385 BTC [+]
02:22 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 39 @ 0.00344999 = 0.1345 BTC [+] {2}
02:30 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38200 @ 0.00089443 = 34.1672 BTC [+] {3}
02:40 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18150 @ 0.00089119 = 16.1751 BTC [-] {3}
02:50 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17359 @ 0.00089485 = 15.5337 BTC [+] {3}
02:52 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10896 @ 0.000895 = 9.7519 BTC [+]
~ 16 minutes ~
03:08 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 2 @ 0.0680001 = 0.136 BTC [-] {2}
03:15 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52484 @ 0.00088812 = 46.6121 BTC [-] {6}
03:16 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29819 @ 0.00088652 = 26.4351 BTC [-] {2}
03:27 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13300 @ 0.00089246 = 11.8697 BTC [+]
~ 31 minutes ~
03:59 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13179 @ 0.00089382 = 11.7797 BTC [+] {3}
~ 26 minutes ~
04:25 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13650 @ 0.00089225 = 12.1792 BTC [-] {2}
04:31 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8107 @ 0.00089012 = 7.2162 BTC [-]
~ 26 minutes ~
04:58 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18294 @ 0.00089004 = 16.2824 BTC [-] {2}
04:59 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 136 @ 0.00348023 = 0.4733 BTC [+] {3}
05:00 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 50 @ 0.00349999 = 0.175 BTC [+]
~ 31 minutes ~
05:31 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5841 @ 0.00089507 = 5.2281 BTC [+]
05:32 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17360 @ 0.0008957 = 15.5494 BTC [+]
~ 18 minutes ~
05:51 Apocalyptic .d
05:51 ozbot 4.250 billion | Next Diff in 1319 blocks | Estimated Change: 12.0150% in 8d 1h 25m 20s
05:56 BingoBoingo ;;ticker --market all
05:57 gribble Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 624.17, vol: 5229.17631623 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 619.0, vol: 3520.16353 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 622.9, vol: 3034.80102891 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 644.03, vol: 27.03976344 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 634.7904, vol: 7.60273383 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 641.971901103, vol: 37.82252322 | Volume-weighted last average: 622.418876926
05:59 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06899943 = 0.138 BTC [+]
06:00 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06899942 = 0.138 BTC [-]
06:01 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13600 @ 0.00088761 = 12.0715 BTC [-] {3}
06:03 bounce oh, nice to wake up to a spurious paste. another reason to hate trackpads.
06:11 mircea_popescu when did miscreanity become stupid anyway ?
06:16 bounce because if it wasn't, it gets bailouts
06:20 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4900 @ 0.00088908 = 4.3565 BTC [+]
06:21 mircea_popescu wait what ?
06:22 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo hacker news
06:22 mircea_popescu joecool hacker news
06:23 mircea_popescu o look, mpoe is trading 88 now ? i guess short sellers got bored or what
06:24 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo "Tychoon" ?!
06:25 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 9 @ 0.11950724 = 1.0756 BTC [-]
06:33 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.05259698 = 0.1578 BTC [-]
06:34 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.05259698 = 0.1578 BTC [-]
06:35 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.05259698 = 0.1052 BTC [-]
06:36 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11700 @ 0.00088908 = 10.4022 BTC [+]
06:41 BingoBoingo Tychoon, Barron... Things were bound to go wrong when I tried to submit to Slashot completely sober/
06:45 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.615 BTC [+]
06:52 mircea_popescu lol
06:52 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 7 @ 0.06909855 = 0.4837 BTC [+] {7}
06:55 BingoBoingo Still the name of the game is challenging the editors to catch these things
06:56 mircea_popescu why not work with them
07:09 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3200 @ 0.0008882 = 2.8422 BTC [-]
07:11 BingoBoingo That is an interesting question.
07:14 isthisreallyreal Hi guys! :)
07:14 kakobrekla hi
07:14 isthisreallyreal Anyone care to explain what's going on here ? :p Im totally new to this. Haha
07:14 Curious_George hey there
07:15 kakobrekla this box is internet relay chat aka irc
07:15 kakobrekla you type stuff in and other people can see
07:15 kakobrekla then they can reply back if they wish to do so
07:15 isthisreallyreal haha, not that basic! I'm just wondering exactly what you're talking about here:)
07:15 kakobrekla see the topic, follow the links
07:16 isthisreallyreal A user from bitcointalk refered me here to gain some more experince about bitcoin in generel.
07:17 kakobrekla well start reading then
07:17 mircea_popescu isthisreallyreal just read the logs.
07:18 kakobrekla or you can chop them up and make a nice wooden table
07:20 isthisreallyreal And also, do you guys know any good marketplace where i can buy and sell with bitcoin?
07:20 kakobrekla buy and sell what?
07:21 isthisreallyreal stuff, like phones or anything acutally..
07:22 isthisreallyreal I can only find places to BUY bitcoins, not buy WITH them..
07:22 kakobrekla overstock for example
07:24 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57337 @ 0.00089642 = 51.398 BTC [+] {5}
07:24 isthisreallyreal overstock.com? I can only see that you can buy with regular currencys on that site!
07:25 kakobrekla yes the implementation is poor
07:25 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 3 @ 0.60646667 = 1.8194 BTC [-] {2}
07:25 kakobrekla but theres a "buy now with bitcoin" button on the bottom of product page
07:25 isthisreallyreal Sorry to bother..! but where do i find the "log" ?:)
07:26 kakobrekla the. links. in. the. topic.
07:26 kakobrekla ;;topic
07:26 gribble http://bitcoin-assets.com || http://log.bitcoin-assets.com || http://bash.bitcoin-assets.com || http://blogs.bitcoin-assets.com
07:26 isthisreallyreal thanks alot !!
07:27 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 67 @ 0.00595003 = 0.3987 BTC [-] {3}
07:31 isthisreallyreal Do you guys use "bitcoins" regularly? :p Or what you find interesting about it?
07:33 isthisreallyreal and btw, have you heard of thecoinbay?
07:33 kakobrekla whats that
07:33 mircea_popescu isthisreallyreal you need to stfu and read now, before you go on everyone's ignore.
07:33 kakobrekla ebay with coins id guess
07:34 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17500 @ 0.00089713 = 15.6998 BTC [+]
07:38 hdbuck im new too, delighted to finally make it to the high sphere, have read the logs about what happened on the 4th of feb.. still trying to figure it all out. cheers. :)
07:39 mircea_popescu eenjoy
07:39 thestringpuller !ticker m s.mpoe
07:39 assbot [MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.00079506 / 0.00087709 / 0.00089713 (838186 shares, 735.17 BTC), 7D: 0.00079084 / 0.00083456 / 0.00089713 (8310811 shares, 6,935.92 BTC), 30D: 0.000745 / 0.00085545 / 0.0008982 (30408720 shares, 26,013.21 BTC)
07:42 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13800 @ 0.0008974 = 12.3841 BTC [+] {2}
07:50 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.05259507 = 0.1052 BTC [+]
07:55 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 863 @ 0.00089705 = 0.7742 BTC [-]
07:57 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 3 @ 0.06999999 = 0.21 BTC [+] {2}
07:58 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 3 @ 0.11950724 = 0.3585 BTC [-] {3}
07:58 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 2 @ 0.06999999 = 0.14 BTC [+] {2}
07:59 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 5 @ 0.05087319 = 0.2544 BTC [-] {4}
07:59 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.606 BTC [-]
07:59 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 5 @ 0.06999999 = 0.35 BTC [+] {4}
07:59 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 4 @ 0.11950724 = 0.478 BTC [-] {4}
08:00 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.11950724 BTC [-]
08:02 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7951 @ 0.00089528 = 7.1184 BTC [-]
~ 16 minutes ~
08:18 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 27 @ 0.11950724 = 3.2267 BTC [-]
08:18 BingoBoingo First Newsweek, now Time Magazine http://time.com/25600/watch-a-bunny-throw-a-tantrum-whenever-he-isnt-getting-pet/
08:21 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9395 @ 0.00088963 = 8.3581 BTC [-] {2}
08:22 cazalla patting a rabbit with an open palm (as in the video) blocks it's vision which can make it become defensive
08:25 cazalla i breed NZ whites for meat, some of them would do the exact same thing or even bite if i harassed them as in that video
08:30 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5350 @ 0.0008895 = 4.7588 BTC [-]
~ 31 minutes ~
09:01 chetty http://m.trend.az/en/news/politics/2253614.html
09:01 ozbot Turkish PM to hold consultations with Azerbaijan on Crimea - Trend.Az | Mobile version
09:02 Mats_cd03 luls nato
09:02 mircea_popescu this guy said it best :
09:02 mircea_popescu https://twitter.com/JamesKerLindsay/status/445543326750879744
09:02 ozbot Twitter / JamesKerLindsay: Turkey occupying Cyprus discusses ...
09:04 Mats_cd03 dinosaurs behaving like the world still belongs to them
09:04 chetty news flash: pot calls kettle black
09:07 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 77 @ 0.00331241 = 0.2551 BTC [-] {2}
09:08 wao-ender v0v http://keithledgerwood.tumblr.com/post/79838944823/did-malaysian-airlines-370-disappear-using-sia68
09:13 mircea_popescu wao-ender large boeings can't fly that way.
09:13 mircea_popescu in fact, it's unsafe for them to be even within one kilometer of each other.
09:14 wao-ender yeah, comply with safety rules while hijacking plane.
09:15 wao-ender I think for upthrust is one km still safe
09:15 mircea_popescu the problem is mostly the turbulence
09:16 mircea_popescu if you watch racing, it's like the slickstream
09:17 Apocalyptic mircea_popescu, he could stay at a reasonable safe distance while still being close enough to show as 1 spot on the radars imo
09:17 mircea_popescu in racing however the road is there to keep the cars up, and turbulence only causes a problem at high speeds, because the cars are designed so that the air pushes them on the ground.
09:17 mircea_popescu there are occasionally accidents where a car follows a leader too close and ends up losing contact with the ground because of the disrupton in airflow
09:18 mircea_popescu Apocalyptic well, you ever watched a radar ?
09:18 Apocalyptic I did
09:18 wao-ender also, I'm reading, there was 50 seats blocked for some special cargo on the plane?
09:18 Apocalyptic not a military one though
09:18 mircea_popescu so how do you figure two 80 meter long objects a mile apart could appear the same one object
09:18 mircea_popescu one mile long ?
09:19 mircea_popescu if they actally thought that they'd have reported the aliens invading o.O
09:19 Apocalyptic anyway satellite pictures should determine that
09:20 mircea_popescu anyway, getting back to the airflow problem : in racing the road keeps the cars up, but in flight planes are kept up by their drag
09:20 mircea_popescu in order for it to generate enough force to keep all those tons in the air it has to have a certain density and flow pattern
09:20 mircea_popescu basically if you try to fly a boeing behind another you'll just fall
09:20 mircea_popescu and you'll probably fall for 100s of feet at a time because of inertia etc.
09:21 Apocalyptic that i would be more likely to believe
09:21 mircea_popescu leaving aside how incredibly dangerous it is (engines also need air, may likely stop etc), it's just not possible to smoothy fly that way
09:21 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1861 @ 0.00089206 = 1.6601 BTC [+]
09:21 wao-ender I think mh370 flying at different altitude
09:21 mircea_popescu well so then they're visibly distinct
09:22 mircea_popescu good military radar works in micrometre by now you know
09:22 wao-ender dunno how they made it, but this conspiracy with sia68 is really interesting
09:22 Apocalyptic mircea_popescu, I have no knowledge of a radar indentifying how long an object is or whatever
09:22 mircea_popescu well interesting it may well be, but it's fiction.
09:22 Apocalyptic either it reflects the waves or it doesn't
09:22 wao-ender ye
09:23 Apocalyptic I suppose you could achieve that with a special setup with multiple coordinated radars
09:23 mircea_popescu radar is basically video in lower wavelengths, it's not that different.
09:23 mircea_popescu it can see shape and "color" and everything you can see.
09:26 chetty I wonder have radar setups gotten lazy? that is only bothering to look for transponders?
09:26 mircea_popescu yeah but all of them ?
09:26 mircea_popescu including military ? it crossed what, > 100 different sites.
09:27 chetty well then we get to how may military vs civiliand radars along the way
09:27 Apocalyptic pretty sure military radars don't give a fuck about transponders or not
09:28 mircea_popescu yeah, wouldn't make much sense to limit themselves to that.
09:28 wao-ender 'military' hm, how can you know that military doesn't hiding something from public?
09:31 mircea_popescu yeah well.
09:31 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12156 @ 0.00089206 = 10.8439 BTC [+]
09:32 Mats_cd03 we'll find out six years from now that they've been dead all along and were never actually on the island
09:32 wao-ender > i don't see how they can make that up from shipping 3-4 tons of mangosteens
09:33 wao-ender > which, to me, suggests there was something either hidden in the mangosteens or the manifest is fraudulent
09:33 Mats_cd03 oh wait, wrong plot
09:33 asciilifeform who has a link (crackpot or otherwise) to the 'fifty reserved seats' thing?
09:33 wao-ender here we go
09:33 wao-ender http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/no-hazardous-cargo-just-tonnes-of-mangosteens-on-flight-mh370-says-airlines
09:33 ozbot No hazardous cargo, just tonnes of mangosteens on flight MH370, says airline CEO - The Malaysian In
09:33 wao-ender no hazardous cargo.
09:34 asciilifeform any cargo is hazardous if the fellow with the remote control (usg) would rather that it not reach destination.
09:34 mircea_popescu wait, mangosteens ?!
09:34 Apocalyptic what's that ?
09:35 Mats_cd03 i wonder what a crashed airplane with mangosteens in hold would look like
09:35 mircea_popescu is this a lowtax plot to troll the world ?
09:35 wao-ender lol
09:35 Mats_cd03 i do love me some mangosteen
09:36 mircea_popescu plane went down because, "SO DONT FUCKING BUY IT, DONT FUCKING DRINK IT, DONT FUCKING CLICK MY LINKS."
09:36 wao-ender Studies suggest that higher doses of xanthones may depress the central nervous system in animals and cause sedation.
09:39 mircea_popescu asciilifeform https://images.encyclopediadramatica.es/9/90/Maddox_irl.jpg btw.
09:39 mircea_popescu this is what the us army has come to be, btw : those blondish dudes in a buzz cut with glasses.
09:44 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19500 @ 0.00089457 = 17.4441 BTC [+] {2}
09:46 wao-ender lul https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPR/status/445534544624488448
09:47 mircea_popescu yeah lol
09:50 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6615 @ 0.00089689 = 5.9329 BTC [+] {2}
09:59 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13450 @ 0.00089142 = 11.9896 BTC [-] {2}
10:01 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 5 @ 0.05085001 = 0.2543 BTC [-]
10:01 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06899959 = 0.138 BTC [+]
10:02 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 4 @ 0.11950724 = 0.478 BTC [-]
10:03 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 35 @ 0.0060241 = 0.2108 BTC [+]
10:17 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: what's so special about those?
10:18 asciilifeform they look like ordinary 'office plankton'
10:19 mircea_popescu yup
10:20 asciilifeform they're probably 'desk flyers', though
10:21 asciilifeform grunts who are actually sent out in the field are usually more muscular-looking.
10:24 blackwhite morning gents
10:25 dR3 g'day
10:27 assbot [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1000 @ 0.0001499 = 0.1499 BTC [+]
10:29 kakobrekla hello.
10:33 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06899937 = 0.138 BTC [-] {2}
~ 19 minutes ~
10:52 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14450 @ 0.00088806 = 12.8325 BTC [-] {2}
11:03 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.6053 BTC [-]
11:15 bitcoinpete "In manufacturing, technology eliminates and relocates jobs, but welding robots will never design their own cars. It ain’t gonna happen. In finance, jobs on Wall Street and in The City will be eaten up by Bitcoin, but the invention of the distributed blockchain can’t replace creativity and trust. Kurzweil’s singularity be damned."
11:15 bitcoinpete http://bitcoinpete.com/2014/its-the-people-not-the-protocol-stupid/
11:15 ozbot It’s The People, Not The Protocol, Stupid | When Bitcoin Met Pete
11:17 blackwhite nice strawman
11:17 blackwhite welding robots do not have to design their own cars for cars to be designed automatically
11:18 asciilifeform people far from engineering would be astounded at how much of every widget is already designed 'automatically,' for any reasonable sense of the word.
11:19 blackwhite Even circuit boards are designed by "other circuit boards"
11:19 asciilifeform e.g. electrical engineering, at today's universities, largely consists of learning to crank CAD and sims like SPICE.
11:20 asciilifeform very few of the grads know anything but the most surface treatment of why the sim works the way it does
11:23 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 56 @ 0.00345674 = 0.1936 BTC [+] {5}
11:24 asciilifeform historical note. when CNC machining was new, various business folks had delusions that they could be rid of the need to hire machinists.
11:24 asciilifeform the result was, apparently, in the words of those living then, 'production of scrap metal at very high speeds.'
11:25 asciilifeform a master machinist eats very well even today.
11:26 asciilifeform even though he will not turn the cranks by hand.
11:26 chetty http://www.space.com/25078-universe-inflation-gravitational-waves-discovery.html
11:26 ozbot Major Discovery: 'Smoking Gun' for Universe's Incredible Big Bang Expansion Found | Space.com
11:27 asciilifeform for some reason i thought that the slow cooling of the 5k background hum was already 'smoking gun.'
11:27 assbot [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1000 @ 0.0001499 = 0.1499 BTC [+]
11:27 hdbuck analysts at Citi Group told me he got offered to have his sort of pension fund in BTC?! such pokerface those banks. ^^
11:28 asciilifeform hdbuck: what prevents anyone from having whatever in btc?
11:28 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 200 @ 0.00332744 = 0.6655 BTC [-] {7}
11:30 assbot [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 4000 @ 0.0001499 = 0.5996 BTC [+]
11:33 hdbuck asciilifeform: nothing, just that he confirmed to me that banks have already started to deal with btc behind the curtain
11:33 asciilifeform i thought this was old news.
11:34 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 200 @ 0.0033091 = 0.6618 BTC [-] {5}
11:35 assbot [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 4800 @ 0.00014998 = 0.7199 BTC [+] {2}
11:36 Apocalyptic asciilifeform, ?
11:37 asciilifeform Apocalyptic: various hedge funds; and some consumer bank in france, if i recall
11:37 Apocalyptic interesting, missed that
11:38 hdbuck in france?!
11:38 asciilifeform i last heard of it ages ago, might have vanished.
11:49 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3750 @ 0.00088745 = 3.3279 BTC [-]
11:56 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4652 @ 0.00088801 = 4.131 BTC [+]
11:59 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] [PAID] 2.33749062 BTC to 3`951 shares, 59162 satoshi per share
12:05 dR3 more pokerface evidence: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/morgan-stanley-to-host-bitcoin-event-2014-03-17
12:06 Apocalyptic "The recent collapse of bitcoin exchange Mr. Gox has caused alarm in the industry about the stability and security of the virtual currency" // they must include that everywhere...
12:07 thestringpuller ;;ticker
12:07 gribble Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 623.71, Best ask: 625.58, Bid-ask spread: 1.87000, Last trade: 623.7, 24 hour volume: 6843.50990414, 24 hour low: 619.46, 24 hour high: 635.0, 24 hour vwap: 626.355003951
12:08 thestringpuller ;;ticker --markets all
12:08 gribble (ticker [--bid|--ask|--last|--high|--low|--avg|--vol] [--currency XXX] [--market <market>|all]) -- Return pretty-printed ticker. Default market is Bitstamp. If one of the result options is given, returns only that numeric result (useful for nesting in calculations). If '--currency XXX' option is given, returns ticker for that three-letter currency code. It is up to you to make (1 more message)
12:08 thestringpuller ;;ticker --market all
12:08 chetty show me the money / err alarm
12:08 gribble Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 623.7, vol: 6842.45497403 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 617.0, vol: 3741.72887 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 621.61, vol: 4251.82494996 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 635.01, vol: 62.51398694 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 611.454206, vol: 2820.20400000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 630.0, vol: 7.87890985 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 636.312876, vol: 52.31340017 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)
12:09 benkay "stability and security"
12:09 benkay look, there are no exchanges. there's no exchange rate.
12:09 benkay look, end-users are responsible for their own security. it's not fucking secure.
12:09 benkay davout why does bitcoin-central never get press mentions?
12:10 davout benkay: define 'press mentions'
12:10 davout coindesk ?
12:10 benkay what do you take me for?!
12:10 davout :D
12:10 mircea_popescu bitcoinpete that's EXACTLY where the bad news starts for them.
12:11 davout we do get some press, but usually it's paymium that's mentioned
12:11 mircea_popescu they rationalize away "oh but bitcoin will never be smarter than us". sure it won't. then mp comes, and you're beyond fucked.
12:12 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 6 @ 0.065 = 0.39 BTC [-] {2}
12:12 mircea_popescu asciilifeform> a master machinist eats very well even today. << yes, but he's not in a union is he.
12:13 assbot [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 2514 @ 0.00015 = 0.3771 BTC [+] {2}
12:13 mircea_popescu and o hai guise.
12:14 mircea_popescu "The controversial owner of MPEx is" o look, i r controversial nao.
12:14 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21098 @ 0.00088801 = 18.7352 BTC [+]
12:17 mircea_popescu so which one of you runs bitcoinx.com ?
12:18 mircea_popescu JEFFREY SCOTT OWNBY. Ex BFL VP ?! you gotta be kidding me.
12:20 ThickAsThieves bitcoinx is pretty old, i doubt anyone here runs it too
12:20 mircea_popescu ThickAsThieves apparently owned by ex bfl officer ?
12:20 ThickAsThieves it lives only cuz it comes up high on google searches for bitcoin mining calc
12:20 mircea_popescu seems to have started jan 2013, then taken a 11 month break to december
12:21 ThickAsThieves ironically i probly used it to determine i should ask for a refund on my BFL
12:21 mircea_popescu https://twitter.com/bitcoinXnews wait, 2012ish by the twitter they link
12:21 ozbot bitcoinx.com (bitcoinXnews) on Twitter
12:21 mircea_popescu lol
12:22 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 6 @ 0.05085001 = 0.3051 BTC [-] {2}
12:23 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 98 @ 0.00348885 = 0.3419 BTC [-] {3}
12:23 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.05085 = 0.1526 BTC [-]
12:28 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3800 @ 0.00088741 = 3.3722 BTC [-] {2}
12:29 chetty http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukrainian-government-refuses-to-remove-troops-from-crimea-prepares-for-war-339724.html
12:29 ozbot Ukrainian government refuses to remove troops from Crimea, prepares for war
12:30 mircea_popescu what, again ?
12:30 mircea_popescu didn't they call a general mobilisation nobody showed ?
12:38 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24800 @ 0.00088648 = 21.9847 BTC [-] {3}
12:39 LordPutin but we won crimea fair and square, they even voted to join us
12:40 BingoBoingo Oh, this dude is still shitting out non-text https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=297334.msg5722587#msg5722587
12:41 mircea_popescu someone should make an ipo of a totally insane thing and just keep posting wall of text after wall of text of completely rambling, nonsensically, perhaps machine-generated text whenever someone says something
12:41 mircea_popescu no wait, it's been done to death by hand already.
12:41 LordPutin ipo bot
12:42 mircea_popescu botipo
12:42 mircea_popescu bo.ti.po
12:42 chetty botipoo
12:43 LordPutin satoshi spaceship
12:43 mircea_popescu lol chetty
12:43 BingoBoingo S.IPO.BOT
12:45 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 300 @ 0.00088801 = 0.2664 BTC [+]
12:46 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 1590 @ 0.00349675 = 5.5598 BTC [+] {8}
12:49 artifexd mircea_popescu Your 1 million atc wall on x-bt.com is gone. Eaten up.
12:50 mircea_popescu coolness.
12:52 BingoBoingo Oh, half an hour ago there were still a 300k or so left.
12:52 thestringpuller stupid ipos
12:52 thestringpuller AMAZING
12:54 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5900 @ 0.00088748 = 5.2361 BTC [-] {2}
12:57 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.05085 = 0.1017 BTC [-]
12:58 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 10 @ 0.04997799 = 0.4998 BTC [-] {3}
12:59 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.0491 = 0.1473 BTC [-]
13:00 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 33 @ 0.00349999 = 0.1155 BTC [+]
13:02 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 3 @ 0.069166 = 0.2075 BTC [+] {3}
13:02 ThickAsThieves wow, i didnt know that the owners of about 130,000 properties are without their title deeds in Cyprus
13:03 ThickAsThieves some having multiple owners and mortgages
13:03 mircea_popescu yeah it's a mess
13:03 mircea_popescu greece is similar, bulgaria less so but also.
13:04 mircea_popescu very dangerous to buy property in non-torens lands.
↖ ↖
13:04 asciilifeform e.g. usa
13:07 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06898999 = 0.138 BTC [+]
13:07 ThickAsThieves is there any argument to say they unit of account of Bitcoin is a bitcoin?
13:08 ThickAsThieves or is it satoshis in all cases?
13:08 ThickAsThieves and if so, is satoshi a documented name, or just what people say?
13:08 Dimsler i don't think it matters
13:09 jurov sometimes mili, micro, nano
13:09 Dimsler microtransactions of that nature aren't possible
13:09 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9800 @ 0.00088636 = 8.6863 BTC [-]
13:09 ThickAsThieves my question wasnt whether it matters
13:10 ThickAsThieves merely if someone asks What is the unit of account in Bitcoin?
13:10 ThickAsThieves what is the correct answer?
13:10 Dimsler bitcoin
13:10 ThickAsThieves i prefer a response from someone i think knows what;s up
13:10 BingoBoingo http://gawker.com/gym-bro-successfully-gets-fake-feminist-thought-catalog-1545530204
13:10 ozbot Gym Bro Successfully Gets Fake Feminist Thought Catalog Essay Published
13:10 Apocalyptic artifexd, how do you know it was mircea's ?
13:10 BingoBoingo Trolls trolling trolls getting trolls
13:10 jurov ThickAsThieves: you want like "official" answer or what?
13:11 artifexd There is reference to "satoshi" as the base element in the reference client code. All the code uses satoshi as the amount of accounting.
13:11 BingoBoingo Apocalyptic: It's establishment and purpose were announced
13:11 Apocalyptic somehow missed that too
13:11 mircea_popescu ThickAsThieves the satoshi is quite clearly the only unit of account, a "bitcoin" is just a courtesy style.
13:11 Dimsler satoshi is a denomincation
13:11 Dimsler unit of account is bitcoin
13:11 mircea_popescu the satoshi name is not documented, other than through ancient convention
13:11 Dimsler ThickAsThieves, nobody in here knows whats up
13:11 mircea_popescu Dimsler no actually exactly backwards
13:12 Dimsler actually yes that is backwards
13:12 Dimsler no wait
13:12 Dimsler it depends on symantics
13:12 ThickAsThieves lol
13:12 Dimsler denomiations of bitcoin are just that
13:12 mircea_popescu lolk
13:12 ThickAsThieves it depends on malwarebytes mostly
13:12 Dimsler satoshi as th elowest denomination
13:13 mircea_popescu inasmuch as bitcoin protocol happily handles half a bitcoin
13:13 mircea_popescu but can not handle half a satoshi
13:13 mircea_popescu it should be pretty obvious what the unit of account is.
13:13 artifexd If you're asking about the code, then the code keeps track of amounts in satoshi. API's accept amounts in satoshi.
13:14 ThickAsThieves but the protocol does call it a satoshi?
13:14 ThickAsThieves or does it not call it anything at all
13:14 Dimsler i dont' think its actually named
13:14 Dimsler its not called anything at all
13:14 artifexd It is named in a comment. Variables don't contain the name.
13:14 mircea_popescu ThickAsThieves does not call it anything at all.
13:14 artifexd At least in the reference client.
13:14 mircea_popescu artifexd has it.
~ 15 minutes ~
13:30 mircea_popescu "Some other questions: 1) how naked would you like the models to be?"
13:30 mircea_popescu shit people ask me...
13:30 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 4000 @ 0.00349999 = 14 BTC [+] {2}
13:36 ThickAsThieves on the probabilities of a bitcoin wallet being hacked, can any of you review this short text to tell me if it is generally acceptable? http://dpaste.com/1739894/
↖
13:36 ThickAsThieves to me it seems that hacking an addy would be even less probable than how this writer has approached it
13:37 asciilifeform what's next? probability of nuclear war?
13:38 ThickAsThieves just lookin for some insight on bitcoin, i'll leave the wars to the media
13:38 asciilifeform just asking the question is an abuse of statistics
13:38 mircea_popescu "both of these figures are reasonable estimates"
13:38 mircea_popescu thjey're asspulls.
13:39 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 200 @ 0.00349997 = 0.7 BTC [-] {2}
13:40 mircea_popescu can be reasonably considered "absolutely secure" << depends by whom where for what purpose etc.
13:40 mircea_popescu services to describe at least superficially describe their security policy
13:40 mircea_popescu too much describe, and also who are you to make recommendations to people running services ?
13:41 ThickAsThieves absolute is obviously a horrible choice of wording
13:41 mircea_popescu let's translate it for a moment.
13:41 ThickAsThieves whwn i share who wrote it, you'll understand why i'm questioning it
13:42 Apocalyptic is it Amir ?
13:42 ThickAsThieves there's really only one guess
13:42 assbot [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 4500 @ 0.00014999 = 0.675 BTC [+] {3}
13:42 ThickAsThieves who is constantly trying to look smart while displaying stupidity?
13:43 ThickAsThieves other than me
13:43 ThickAsThieves :)
13:43 mircea_popescu http://dpaste.com/1739920/
13:43 ozbot dpaste: #1739920
13:43 mircea_popescu there, that should put it in perspective.
13:44 mircea_popescu now go make a... what, a wh petition.org ?
13:44 mircea_popescu talk at a ##conference ?
13:44 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: lol!
13:44 mircea_popescu no but srsly. we are reddit, hear us roar already.
13:46 ThickAsThieves the text was via vitalik
13:47 mircea_popescu he's seriously wasting his talents in bitcoin
13:47 mircea_popescu he should be in /r/wmd
13:47 ThickAsThieves or climatechange/
13:48 mircea_popescu no because that is actually intended as a chump party.
13:48 Apocalyptic don't you know he's busy with ethereum
13:48 Apocalyptic or whatever it's called
13:48 mircea_popescu eterheum
13:49 Apocalyptic "The 19-Year-Old Behind Ethereum, a New Digital Currency, Is Insanely Smart"
13:50 mircea_popescu aokthen
13:50 ThickAsThieves such branding
13:51 bitcoinpete o allo
13:51 bitcoinpete mircea_popescu: haha beyond beyond.
13:51 mircea_popescu wasn't ethereum more like a new ripple than a new bitcoin ?
13:51 mircea_popescu heh i guess they covered it by calling it "digital currency"
13:51 Apocalyptic that probably best describes it indeed
13:51 mircea_popescu technically it could be a new ven
13:51 ThickAsThieves it's a new mastercoin
13:52 bitcoinpete ;:eauth bitcoinpete
13:52 bitcoinpete ;;eauth bitcoinpete
13:52 gribble Request successful for user bitcoinpete, hostmask bitcoinpete!~bitcoinpe@S01060016cbc6cced.ed.shawcable.net. Get your encrypted OTP from http://bitcoin-otc.com/otps/165749929F9A6BDD
13:52 mircea_popescu but mastercoin was a new ripple once ripple got its guts ripped out
13:52 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7200 @ 0.00088636 = 6.3818 BTC [-]
13:54 ThickAsThieves but ripple never asked you to relinquish your bitcoins to use it
13:55 bitcoinpete ;;ident bitcoinpete
13:55 gribble Nick 'bitcoinpete', with hostmask 'bitcoinpete!~bitcoinpe@S01060016cbc6cced.ed.shawcable.net', is not identified.
13:57 bitcoinpete ;;verify freenode:#bitcoin-otc:da8bab51c90fb8c7142143eaa83df8ade8e8e0aa699576b2863f7245
13:57 gribble Error: 'freenode:#bitcoin-otc:da8bab51c90fb8c7142143eaa83df8ade8e8e0aa699576b2863f7245' is not a valid http url.
13:58 benkay if you want to avoid flailing around in public, you can get down with gribble via pm, bitcoinpete
13:58 Apocalyptic bitcoinpete, try ;;everify
13:58 bitcoinpete ;;everify freenode:#bitcoin-otc:da8bab51c90fb8c7142143eaa83df8ade8e8e0aa699576b2863f7245
13:58 gribble You are now authenticated for user bitcoinpete with key 165749929F9A6BDD
13:58 bitcoinpete benkay: sorry dude
13:58 benkay sheesh bitcoinpete stop burning my electrons
14:00 bitcoinpete benkay: I coulda sworn I went through that rigamarole once before… hopefully this is the last public flailing
14:00 benkay ;;gpg eauth benkay
14:00 gribble Request successful for user benkay, hostmask benkay!~user@76-251-110-24.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net. Get your encrypted OTP from http://bitcoin-otc.com/otps/39F274AFBC7ACAC7
14:00 benkay ;;everify freenode:#bitcoin-otc:a38d09183a201e377da24b96a6e0747f0e7fc58b5b0a0f8f24ab10bd
14:00 gribble You are now authenticated for user benkay with key 39F274AFBC7ACAC7
14:01 benkay worth doing once a day.
14:01 benkay sometimes in public, sometimes in private.
14:01 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 12 @ 0.05108899 = 0.6131 BTC [-] {2}
14:04 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16800 @ 0.00089112 = 14.9708 BTC [+] {2}
14:08 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17400 @ 0.00088636 = 15.4227 BTC [-]
14:20 hdbuck what's with MP's statement on twitter saying there is no such thing as Bitcoin core devs?! *mind blown 2*
14:21 benkay nobody uses anything post 0.6
14:22 benkay everyone calling themselves a core dev has hacked on the cpp hairball that turned into 0.7 and then 0.8
14:22 mircea_popescu well for further mind blown, consider there's no bitcoin jesus, either o.O
14:22 * mircea_popescu is kinda surprised nobody claimed to be bitcoin santa.
14:23 hdbuck mircea_popescu: gosh was convinced it was you ^^
14:23 mircea_popescu i guess in the end people do suck.
14:23 mircea_popescu lol
14:23 mircea_popescu i only bring gifts to chicks that dress properly.
14:24 lopp Nobody uses bitcoind > 0.6? Are you saying that http://getaddr.bitnodes.io/dashboard/ is so underwhelming because it's only counting nodes >= 0.7?
14:27 bitcoinyeezus lopp: who knows
14:27 bitcoinyeezus lopp: do you run your node constantly?
14:27 lopp i do
14:27 bitcoinyeezus does everyone?
14:28 lopp only the really nerdy / early bitcoiners from my experience bother running full nodes
14:28 bitcoinyeezus well then who can know what the whelmingness of that thinger implies abouty reality anyways?
14:28 * midnightmagic twitches uncontrollably at mention of "bitcoin jesus" down in the Caribbean complaining about how slow it is to open a bank account as a recent import from the US
14:28 bitcoinyeezus kinda messy questionspace.
14:29 midnightmagic apparently two days to wait to renounce US citizenship was too much for him, cause "they're after me." wtf.
14:29 mircea_popescu lopp well "nobody" more in the sense of bitcoin owned
14:29 artifexd loop: At the bottom of that page " Bitnodes uses Bitcoin protocol version 70001 (i.e. >= /Satoshi:0.7.x/), so nodes with older protocol version will be skipped."
14:30 bitcoinyeezus (just 'cause it has Satoshi in the client string doesn't mean shit about the authors)
14:30 lopp right, it's relatively underwhelming because it used to report > 100,000 nodes
14:32 lopp as yeezus noted, we don't really know enough to say whether or not these numbers should be underwhelming. I'm of the opinion that we don't have enough insight into the load that the nodes are bearing.
14:33 bitcoinyeezus mircea_popescu only knows that by volume owned statistic because he's actually the owner of the 'satoshi hoard'.
14:33 lopp that is, how much more volume of requests could the average node be handling before it is straining its computational / bandwidth resources
14:33 bitcoinyeezus load?
14:33 bitcoinyeezus what does load have to do with anything?
14:33 midnightmagic there is virtually no load. i run an experimental node that deals with a few dozen transactions a day on an eeepc 701 just for fun.
14:34 mircea_popescu yeah the load isn't really significant
14:34 mircea_popescu it's more in terms of security, due to various graph splitting attacks that coudl conceivably be deployed
14:35 mircea_popescu also, stockings : http://25.media.tumblr.com/26688fdcb329d5627f6072b48d62e7ea/tumblr_mr0x17YcGH1rgq9hdo1_1280.jpg
14:35 bitcoinyeezus we must all be talking past one another today.
14:36 lopp gotcha - I keep hearing that it's trivial but I guess I'd prefer to see actual numbers regarding, say, how many SPV client requests the average node is handling / how many historical block and tx lookups it's handling, how many invalid txs it's deciding not to relay, etc
14:36 bitcoinyeezus lopp: sit down and figure it out. write it up, post it somewhere. contribute to bitcoin nollij.
14:36 lopp that's the direction I seem to be headed :-)
14:36 bitcoinyeezus real dearth of people doing stuff in btc.
14:37 midnightmagic a bunch of us are trying to connect via non-internet connections to at least measure any attempt at chosen-cut/isolation attacks.
14:37 bitcoinyeezus my ass just got hammered with work as well
14:37 bitcoinyeezus have you heard of such attacks happening, midnightmagic?
14:38 midnightmagic bitcoinyeezus: I have heard of them. I have never personally witnessed one happening.
14:38 mircea_popescu i've never seen proof of one happening either.
14:39 midnightmagic ^^ probably running more-connected nodes than I am.
14:41 mircea_popescu the theoretical possibility still exists, in a variety of very difficult to model variants
14:41 mircea_popescu this'd eminently be one of those asciilifeform "parachute first pls" cases
14:41 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 7 @ 0.06898999 = 0.4829 BTC [+] {2}
14:42 asciilifeform didn't somebody just bring up 'leased lines' as a kind of pill against net splits?
14:43 diametric probably
14:44 asciilifeform as i gather, you'd want to covertly connect two nodes (in 'distant') parts of graph with leased line
14:44 midnightmagic There is a really neat paper that asserts that if you know "enough" about the edges of a connected graph network and measure the messages, you can map most messages sources.
14:44 midnightmagic where "enough" is smaller than I ever expected it to be
14:44 mircea_popescu midnightmagic the tor stuff ?
14:45 midnightmagic and "measurement" is just.. like a few nodes.
14:45 asciilifeform old news.
14:45 midnightmagic mircea_popescu: No I'm trying to find the link now, it's a really weird little paper that nobody I mention it to has heard of.
14:47 midnightmagic asciilifeform: local meshnet, POTS, satellite, moon, and ham frequencies.
14:47 asciilifeform even 'truck loaded with tapes' if low latency is not a critical requirement.
14:48 asciilifeform http://www.wired.com/business/2014/03/culture-offsets << the loltron continues to chug
14:48 ozbot As Female GitHub Coder Claims Harassment, Silicon Valley Stands At Crossroads | Wired Business | Wir
14:48 Apocalyptic carrier pigeons even
14:50 assbot [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1921 @ 0.00015 = 0.2882 BTC [+]
14:53 mircea_popescu silicon valley stands at a crossroad indeed. one way, despair and utter hopelessness
14:53 mircea_popescu on the other, total extinction
14:53 mircea_popescu i pray they have the wisdom to choose correctly.
14:53 benkay what happened to manners?
14:53 mircea_popescu "A software engineer named Julie Ann Horvath sent shock waves across Silicon Valley over the weekend" = "nobody gave a shit, so we'll just keep yakking about it"
14:53 mircea_popescu too much press, too little olive oil.
14:54 asciilifeform i read the first turd, and my puny brain was utterly unable to determine wtf the deal was.
15:01 mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/2014/hey-stupid-women-we-need-to-talk-smart-women-dont-want-to-be-with-you-anymore/
15:01 ozbot Hey, stupid women ? We need to talk. Smart women don’t want to be with you anymore. pe Trilema - U
15:01 mircea_popescu this, basically.
15:02 asciilifeform yeah i read this even, but i still don't 'get' it. what does the woman want?
15:02 asciilifeform 'hush money' ?
15:02 mircea_popescu she wants attention.
15:02 mircea_popescu and to be told that she's important, and valuable, and remarkable and all the rest of the shit women her age want
15:03 mircea_popescu except since she's incapable of fidning a boyfriend, she would like obamacare to pay for it.
15:03 mircea_popescu and obamacare does pay for it, because what else is govbernment for
15:03 mircea_popescu if not to make people happy.
15:03 asciilifeform aha, the 'Professionally Sad'
15:08 mircea_popescu just... the social media generation.
15:08 mircea_popescu notice how nowhere is it mentioned what the fuck the woman actually did at any point.
15:09 mircea_popescu an entire generation of these, ballas spent some time discussing the zuckerberg woman
15:09 asciilifeform probably something like 'untergruppenführer'
15:09 mircea_popescu they're not as much professionally sad as professionally useless
15:10 mircea_popescu i wish some of those "business leaders" or w/e they are actually came forward to plainly state that they don't care, they'll never care, and the peons can get back to the mine.
15:10 asciilifeform afaik, these folks aren't in it for the money - if the 'doxxing' is to be believed, leah for instance is loaded
15:10 mircea_popescu obviously this isn't liable to happen in any venue that's doomed.
15:11 mircea_popescu which is how i conclude silicon valley ain't got much more life left in it.
15:11 mircea_popescu asciilifeform hoiw's she loaded ? she just has rich friends.
15:11 mircea_popescu her constant welfare is dependant strictly on those folks continuing to like her.
15:12 asciilifeform i recall she had lands/estates or something?
15:13 mircea_popescu she owed on a 175k mortgage. that ?
15:14 asciilifeform hm right
15:14 asciilifeform living on borrowed money, then, nm
15:14 wao-ender duck and cover https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiB7ny52-xw
15:14 mircea_popescu http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5mmrwmeqj1qin4ceo1_500.jpg << this chick's more loaded.
15:17 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2200 @ 0.00088898 = 1.9558 BTC [+]
15:21 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8450 @ 0.00089119 = 7.5306 BTC [+]
15:28 assbot [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 800 @ 0.00015997 = 0.128 BTC [+] {3}
15:29 mircea_popescu http://organofcorti.blogspot.ro/2014/03/181-who-owns-1htm4tysxf5yzklpco6mtuunfs.html#!/2014/03/181-who-owns-1htm4tysxf5yzklpco6mtuunfs.html
15:29 ozbot Neighbourhood Pool Watch: 18.1 Who owns 1HTM4TYSXF5yZKLpco6MTUUNfSBCiiwGsU ?
15:30 mircea_popescu this guy is doing a lot of plant art.
15:31 mircea_popescu "Every post from MPOE-PR I read gives me physical pain"
15:31 mircea_popescu bwahaha she wins.
15:32 asciilifeform there seems to be a 'garlic/vampire' dynamic with mpoepr.
15:34 mircea_popescu how;s that ?
15:35 asciilifeform the only folks who have a been with the woman seem to be obvious malefactors
15:35 asciilifeform *beef
15:35 mircea_popescu a that. yeah.
15:36 mircea_popescu i was thinking more along the lines of, hey dear pentagon, if you're looking to start a research project into how to give people physical pain over the wire... i got the only documented case of this happening working for me.
15:36 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: if you recall, i found you in the first place because of a letter from mpoepr. she was never anything other than impeccably polite to me.
15:37 mircea_popescu she's a well brought up young lady, what.
15:37 mircea_popescu she's polite to me too.
15:37 mircea_popescu probably they're mostly incensed because she knows too many words.
15:37 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 3 @ 0.06898999 = 0.207 BTC [+]
15:37 mircea_popescu "women in tech", but only for just as long as a) they're stupid and b) they don't ever do anything let alone make calls.
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15:38 mircea_popescu gotta keep them bitches in their place, you know.
15:40 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 142 @ 0.06898999 = 9.7966 BTC [+]
15:44 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 4 @ 0.06800005 = 0.272 BTC [+] {3}
15:45 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 4 @ 0.0506 = 0.2024 BTC [-]
15:48 midnightmagic I think this is the paper here: http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.0354
15:48 midnightmagic "Identifying Infection Sources and Regions in Large Networks"
15:50 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 4 @ 0.06962498 = 0.2785 BTC [+] {4}
15:51 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7200 @ 0.00088743 = 6.3895 BTC [-]
15:53 assbot [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 2571 @ 0.000149 = 0.3831 BTC [-] {4}
15:53 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4600 @ 0.00088972 = 4.0927 BTC [+]
15:59 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5400 @ 0.00088972 = 4.8045 BTC [+]
16:12 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 1000 @ 0.00349999 = 3.5 BTC [+] {3}
16:15 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 200 @ 0.0035 = 0.7 BTC [+]
16:16 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 45 @ 0.0035 = 0.1575 BTC [+]
16:16 ThickAsThieves The latest version ofthe LMB Holdings (Neo & Bee, Easycoin, Neo Xchange) prospectus has been posted at https://www.lmb-holdings.com
16:16 ThickAsThieves The document is currently accessible using Google Docs at this link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1khGADbJeu0efCNZ13lnz8BucG7PfS5Cl9lBZ1sncY-4/
16:16 ThickAsThieves Please note that an updated link to a PDF version will be posted at lmb-holdings.com soon.
16:16 ThickAsThieves Also, additional updated information will be provided later this week.
16:17 benkay i think you mean in two weeks
16:18 assbot [HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 15 @ 0.08012265 = 1.2018 BTC [-] {7}
16:18 Apocalyptic soon-ish
16:19 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 181 @ 0.0035 = 0.6335 BTC [+]
16:20 assbot [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 2000 @ 0.00014896 = 0.2979 BTC [-] {5}
16:27 benkay okay i have found a use for the alts
16:28 benkay training wheels
16:28 benkay from the local bitcoin room: "omg i broke my doge-wallet"
16:28 benkay "good thing it's just doge, and not bit."
16:28 benkay "ya i guess you're right el oh el oh el"
16:28 asciilifeform benkay: i thought that's what btc 'testnet' was for.
16:29 benkay one would, would one not?
16:29 benkay alert readers these are not, tho.
16:30 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21721 @ 0.00088632 = 19.2518 BTC [-] {2}
16:31 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06620002 = 0.331 BTC [-]
16:32 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 9 @ 0.0662 = 0.5958 BTC [-] {2}
16:33 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 6 @ 0.0662 = 0.3972 BTC [-]
16:34 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 4 @ 0.0662 = 0.2648 BTC [-]
16:35 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 32 @ 0.05108899 = 1.6348 BTC [+]
16:38 assbot [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 314 @ 0.00085529 = 0.2686 BTC [-] {4}
16:40 assbot [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 600 @ 0.00084356 = 0.5061 BTC [-] {6}
16:40 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 220 @ 0.0035 = 0.77 BTC [+]
16:41 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.06440003 = 0.322 BTC [-]
16:42 assbot [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 174 @ 0.00083764 = 0.1457 BTC [-] {4}
16:42 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 7 @ 0.0510727 = 0.3575 BTC [-] {3}
16:42 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 53 @ 0.0035 = 0.1855 BTC [+] {2}
16:47 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 20 @ 0.0644 = 1.288 BTC [-] {5}
16:48 mircea_popescu benkay kinda the idea all along
16:50 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.0035 = 0.35 BTC [+]
16:51 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 10 @ 0.064388 = 0.6439 BTC [-] {3}
16:56 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 200 @ 0.00596155 = 1.1923 BTC [-] {6}
16:59 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5650 @ 0.00088721 = 5.0127 BTC [+]
17:01 ThickAsThieves Nate Silver's prediction site: http://fivethirtyeight.com/
17:01 ThickAsThieves http://fivethirtyeight.com/interactives/march-madness-predictions/
17:01 ozbot FiveThirtyEight | FiveThirtyEight’s NCAA Tournament Predictions
17:02 ThickAsThieves maybe some BitBets are in order
17:03 mircea_popescu if nate silver, whoever he is, gets some sctatch together
17:06 ThickAsThieves "We may have gone from conceiving of government as an entity that builds roads, dams and airports, provides shared services like schooling, policing and national parks, and wages wars, into the world’s largest insurance broker."
17:07 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16119 @ 0.00088732 = 14.3027 BTC [+] {2}
17:09 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 35 @ 0.0035 = 0.1225 BTC [+]
17:15 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06898998 = 0.138 BTC [+]
17:16 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 223 @ 0.0035 = 0.7805 BTC [+]
17:16 assbot [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 15000 @ 0.00015998 = 2.3997 BTC [+] {7}
17:22 assbot [HAVELOCK] [COG] 5 @ 0.03988054 = 0.1994 BTC [+] {2}
17:23 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 25 @ 0.60512519 = 15.1281 BTC [-] {7}
17:25 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10700 @ 0.00088773 = 9.4987 BTC [+]
17:27 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 200 @ 0.0035 = 0.7 BTC [+]
17:27 mircea_popescu soo, BingoBoingo bitcoinpete jborkl and generally ppl doing blogs : ima be doing a little bit of sec wikileaking in a few hours.
17:27 mircea_popescu it;s going to consist of raw material, you can comment whichever way so get your pencils ready.
17:29 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13617 @ 0.00088857 = 12.0997 BTC [+] {2}
17:30 steven-__ http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/20nequ/leah_mcgrath_goodman_i_have_learned_this_about/
17:31 Mats_cd03 nate silver is well known as a statistician
17:31 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47235 @ 0.00089226 = 42.1459 BTC [+] {4}
17:32 steven-__ he used to post on 2+2 and had a blog raitng the best burritos in his city
17:32 assbot [HAVELOCK] [SFI] 200 @ 0.00088997 = 0.178 BTC [+]
17:32 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 50 @ 0.0035 = 0.175 BTC [+]
17:32 steven-__ http://burritobracket.blogspot.com/
17:32 ozbot The Burrito Bracket
17:33 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 354 @ 0.0035 = 1.239 BTC [+]
17:34 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 1000 @ 0.0035 = 3.5 BTC [+]
17:36 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.0035 = 0.35 BTC [+]
17:38 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 428 @ 0.0035 = 1.498 BTC [+]
17:43 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 120 @ 0.0035 = 0.42 BTC [+] {2}
17:43 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4133 @ 0.00088971 = 3.6772 BTC [-]
17:44 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 4 @ 0.06898992 = 0.276 BTC [-]
17:45 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 78 @ 0.00349999 = 0.273 BTC [-]
17:46 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 761 @ 0.00349999 = 2.6635 BTC [-] {5}
17:47 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 102 @ 0.0035 = 0.357 BTC [+]
17:49 benkay mircea_popescu: released on trilema?
17:56 mircea_popescu yea
17:57 mircea_popescu steven-__ that's like rather old #suckstobeleah posturing neh ?
18:02 mircea_popescu bc.info down huh
18:04 steven-__ I think she said this recently in an effort to stay relevant
18:04 mircea_popescu was last week afaik
18:04 ThickAsThieves yep BC says it's a database server thing
18:04 ThickAsThieves and "all coins are safe"
18:06 mircea_popescu i imagine they would be.
18:06 asciilifeform so, got me first digital scope. a bit pissed that it has... moving parts. (fan, and, more outrageously, relays!)
18:07 mircea_popescu electromechanical relays are teh best no ?
18:08 asciilifeform surely somebody makes solid-state relays that don't attenuate 100Mhz.
18:08 asciilifeform (yes, i know, they're almost certainly in the $10K american gizmo that my unit is a chinese copy of.)
18:10 mircea_popescu :p
18:11 asciilifeform funnily, the instrument (a 'rigol ds1102d') has a 'declassification guide' chapter in manual
18:11 asciilifeform which shows which locations on the mainboard are RAMs and therefore should be used for target practice
18:11 asciilifeform when unit is written off
18:12 asciilifeform this tells us that nato folks probably buy these.
18:12 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9659 @ 0.00088736 = 8.571 BTC [-]
18:13 asciilifeform and, that they believe in a serious way, in the 'sram remanence' hypothesis.
18:14 asciilifeform (gizmo has 'flash' on board also, being a cheap linux pc really, but it is not the only chip marked.)
18:15 mircea_popescu may be just "what is done" according to the chinese corp in question
18:15 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 48 @ 0.00354687 = 0.1702 BTC [+]
18:15 asciilifeform my apologies if i'm the only one who finds this interesting.
18:16 asciilifeform actually i admit i've always been curious about ion migration in sram cells, but the literature is mostly silent on the subject.
18:16 asciilifeform to no one's great surprise.
18:17 mircea_popescu so what'd ion migration do ? show whether the user likes vi or emacs ?
18:17 mircea_popescu or uses a lot of pine ?
18:18 asciilifeform same idea as crt 'burnin'
18:18 asciilifeform except, in sram
18:19 asciilifeform one would need, likely, an instrument built for the purpose to read out the 'bias' on the bits
18:19 mircea_popescu i get that. hence the pine comment.
18:19 asciilifeform rather than merely using the chip as prescribed
18:19 asciilifeform correct.
18:20 bitcoinpete mircea_popescu: sharpened and ready
18:21 mircea_popescu hehe isn't irc fun.
18:22 bitcoinpete mircea_popescu: totally.
18:22 bitcoinpete also, was this sarcastic or serious? 01:47:56mircea_popescu:"Being quiet and studious is broadly unknown in a western culture that prizes views, likes and the inane extraversion required to generate them." no see, that's attacking people's self esteem.
18:23 bitcoinpete did I go too far?
18:24 dexX7 he's never sarcastic and i'm serious
18:24 dexX7 tricky now, eh? ;)
18:25 mircea_popescu http://fuck-the-cops.biz/old-hax.html << check it out lol.
18:25 ozbot Reposessing web hosting accounts with Photoshop
18:25 mircea_popescu would-be bitbet hackjer confesses
18:28 dignork mircea_popescu, so the only problem he found is that you;re not supposed to smile on photo-id, lol
18:29 mircea_popescu i wonder how many of the internet haxxors ever had a passport made in the first place.
18:29 mircea_popescu i mean for one thing you can't even get one till you're 18 in many places
18:29 asciilifeform turns out that many people in usa haven't a passport.
18:29 dignork mircea_popescu, but googling for "us passport sample" gives plenty of much more beleivable exmaples
18:30 mircea_popescu well googling.
18:30 asciilifeform (and may or may not have ever seen one)
18:30 artifexd My daughter had a passport before she as a month old.
18:30 mircea_popescu what are you trying to do over here, give people sprains ?
18:30 mircea_popescu artifexd im sure she'll rtemember that :D
18:31 artifexd She won't, but mom and I will.
18:31 artifexd Anyway, the point was that in the US, pre-18yo passports are common.
18:32 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15650 @ 0.00088558 = 13.8593 BTC [-] {3}
18:33 mircea_popescu i thought that was a major issue in the us because of kidnapping concerns
18:33 mircea_popescu (ie, married couple has falling out, either one of them takes kids to mexico)
18:33 asciilifeform afaik you don't need passport for mexico.
18:33 asciilifeform (from usa)
18:34 ThickAsThieves true
18:34 mircea_popescu asciilifeform when i crossed there it was like... lolk.
18:34 artifexd I can state with certainty that Ecuador has rules requiring notrized documentation from the not-present parent for taking a child out of the country. The US doesn't.
18:34 asciilifeform nm, cancelled in '04 it seems
18:35 asciilifeform now u.s. folks need passport to return from anywhere.
18:35 artifexd My wife has taken our daughter to Ecuador a couple times and no one asked me a damned thing.
18:37 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 97 @ 0.00354687 = 0.344 BTC [+]
18:38 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 28 @ 0.00357998 = 0.1002 BTC [+]
18:47 ughlol mircea_popescu: found out you're a billionaire.. sorry to have spoken rudely the other day
18:47 ughlol :P
18:47 mircea_popescu you had ? i hadn't noticed.
18:48 ughlol i did
18:48 ughlol i mean, i dont want you hiring a hitman with btc to take me out right? :P
18:49 ughlol mircea_popescu: now, getting straight to the point, do you invest? =P
18:50 ThickAsThieves ...
18:50 BingoBoingo K pencils at the ready for this data dump
18:50 mircea_popescu sometimes.
18:51 ughlol mircea_popescu: mind a pm?
18:52 mircea_popescu yeah, you're prolly better off talking in public anyway.
18:53 mircea_popescu more people here thjan just me.
18:53 Dimsler it doesn't count if they are you minions
18:53 Dimsler your
18:53 ninjashogun guys, I'm watching htis channel as actually in talking with ughlol I'm the one who mentioned mirceau as being high-net-worth. he's from India and has access to a much poorer network of investors than some western countries
18:54 ninjashogun I was talking about how many billionaires/millionaires I know as an American (just 1-2 of the former even if we include mirceau) :)
18:54 jurov ughlol have you read recent trilema stuff?
18:54 ninjashogun I'd like to introduce ughlol based on my conversations with him.
18:54 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 145 @ 0.00613706 = 0.8899 BTC [+] {8}
18:55 jurov iirc there were some pieces about you both
18:55 ughlol jurov: not really, no..
18:55 ninjashogun ughlol is working on an extremely interesting social network for real spaces, based on shared interests - for exmaple, at a bar if someone is into the exact same bands as you, then you could both be notified.
18:55 ninjashogun so it would work (my words) as an "introduction service" that - if two people both opt in - introduce each other.
18:55 jurov wasn't that the rape stuff?
18:55 ninjashogun No.
18:55 ninjashogun That is a feature he is interested in adding, has nothing to do with the social network.
18:55 ughlol jurov: The rape intervention is a part of a much bigger app.
18:56 ninjashogun Another example I can think of is let's say two people are both open source developres. If they put that, then they'd be notified if they're at the same bar - very cool.
18:56 jurov oh okay. just go read trilema then.
18:56 ninjashogun Due to its double-opt-in nature, it is especially good as a dating solution.
18:56 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.00358 = 0.358 BTC [+]
18:56 ninjashogun He is also an engineering student in India, and as such he has access to a very good source of labor.
18:56 ninjashogun On the downside, he has no access to a venture capital ecosystem.
18:57 ninjashogun In addition I've seen some of his skills in pentesting and security, and think he is the real deal in terms of what he can program. Here is his site, where you can see his photo and full name as well:
18:57 jurov i don'thave a vulture capital access, too and i'm fine
18:57 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 500 @ 0.00358 = 1.79 BTC [+]
18:57 mircea_popescu vulture capital lol
18:58 ughlol jurov: I think you can understand that it is difficult (not impossible, but difficult) to create something from nothing.
18:58 mircea_popescu interesting way to put it
18:58 jurov ughlol, such as... bitcoins?
18:59 ughlol mircea_popescu: Interesting indeed, but ofc, I am looking for investment.. You can call yourself a venture capitalist, investor, angel investor or whatever you like :)
18:59 ughlol jurov: not bitcoins, but a mobile app
18:59 ninjashogun sociostop.com is his current address
18:59 ughlol a social networking app that is meant only for mobile devices
18:59 BingoBoingo Wait, isn't this just what Tinder and Grindr do?
19:00 ughlol since the social networking scene is shifting off computers and onto mobile devices.
19:00 BingoBoingo Except with rape as a feature
19:00 ninjashogun and you can see his face, name, and profile there
19:00 jurov grindr doesn't do rape afaik
19:00 ughlol BingoBoingo: Tinder was active since 2012, and they dont have much..
19:00 ninjashogun BingoBoingo, I would forget about that portion. It's very germane in India where it is a big problem. If he were from Detroit he would put in bullet tracking information based on echolocation - how far away is that shooting? :)
19:00 ughlol I want to create a social network that completely revolves around location services
19:00 ThickAsThieves ...these guys are scamming, sorry
19:00 ThickAsThieves gtfo
19:01 ughlol ThickAsThieves: can I at least discuss the idea?
19:01 ThickAsThieves i cant stop you
19:01 ThickAsThieves but i cant respect you either
19:01 jurov you don't discuss, you just pew out nonsense
19:01 ughlol There might be people interested in investing in such an idea.
19:01 BingoBoingo ninjashogun: What ever happened to your Dogecoin investor?
19:01 BingoBoingo ;;lasers
19:01 gribble ┌━ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ *pew!* *pew!* *pew!*
19:02 jurov ughlol the people considered it, wrote blog about it and rejected it
19:02 jurov and you dn't even want to read it
19:02 jurov so gtfo
19:02 ughlol jurov: I would love to read, can you give me a link?
19:02 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.00358 = 0.358 BTC [+]
19:03 ughlol jurov: are you talking about http://trilema.com/ ?
19:03 jurov yes, on rilema.com some of the top right
19:03 jurov *trilema
19:03 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 44 @ 0.00358 = 0.1575 BTC [+]
19:04 BingoBoingo http://trilema.com/2014/you-cannot-fix-a-machine-by-just-power-cycling-it-with-no-understanding-of-what-is-going-wrong/
19:04 ozbot “You cannot fix a machine by just power-cycling it with no understanding of what is going wrong.â€
19:05 ninjashogun so, ThickAsThieves, here is a COMPLETE scrollback: http://pastebin.com/iTLNPmmq
19:05 ThickAsThieves no thanks
19:05 ThickAsThieves ive been readin all day
19:05 ninjashogun I'd like you to read through it and apologize. no way would I fabricate this, with timestamps, just for some 'scam'. I also don't know him personally.
19:05 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 555 @ 0.0036 = 1.998 BTC [+]
19:06 ThickAsThieves i'm already feeling woozy
19:06 ThickAsThieves gotta save myself for this trilemaleaks event
19:06 ninjashogun Well given that you have just taken it upon yourself to accuse me of being a scammer with ughlol it's up to you to take about 35 seconds to scroll through that and determine that, in fact, I have just met him, and you're a fucking troll who should either stop trolling and apologize or (obviously) eat shit or die
19:06 ThickAsThieves i dont have to do shit for you
19:07 ninjashogun So it's really all the same to me, but I would prefer if you'd do the noble, proper thing and take a few seconds to do that.
19:07 Dimsler fuck
19:07 Dimsler the trolls that this channel attracts
19:07 ninjashogun No, of course you can sit around trying to slander and destroy people's reputations. Thanks for doing the right thing and taking 15 seconds to admit you're wrong though.
19:08 Dimsler man nobody is giving you a penny in here
19:08 Dimsler gtfo
19:09 ThickAsThieves you are demonstrably capable of ruining your own rep
19:09 Dimsler lol what rep?
19:09 nubbins` HAHAHAHAH
19:09 Dimsler two clowns
19:09 nubbins` ninjashogun are you in here with your ideas again?
19:09 ughlol Im sorry you feel that way.
19:10 ninjashogun nubbins`, no I just introduced ughlol
19:10 * jurov tries to think of suitable slanderous soul memepic
19:10 ThickAsThieves now i'm putting you both on ignore for when you come back in a few weeks with your hands out for some other bullshit
19:10 benkay ninjashogun: you ain't introducing shit we already ran him out of here.
19:10 ThickAsThieves at least youll need to change your IP
19:10 * nubbins` chuckles
19:10 Dimsler lol
19:10 Dimsler clowns
19:10 nubbins` YOU GUISE
19:10 ninjashogun I think his idea is perfectly fine.
19:10 Dimsler what the idea
19:10 Dimsler entertain all of us
19:10 ninjashogun There's just one part of the scrollback that is funny - and that shows he's still a student :)
19:10 nubbins` so go make things with him
19:10 Dimsler with how sutpid itis
19:11 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.05108999 = 0.1022 BTC [+]
19:11 ninjashogun ctrl-f "i wanna be a billionaire" - http://pastebin.com/iTLNPmmq
19:11 jurov Dimsler use teh log.. and there was moar yest
19:11 ninjashogun that part is funny :)
19:11 ughlol nothing wrong in wanting to be a billionaire! :P
19:11 ninjashogun i wanna be a billionaire - and a programming job can't even make me a millionaire - id have to struggle hard just to make ends meet
19:11 Dimsler oh yeah
19:11 ninjashogun that is very funny :)
19:11 Dimsler two idiots
19:11 ninjashogun and really shows his age
19:12 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 15 @ 0.0655 = 0.9825 BTC [-] {6}
19:12 ninjashogun But he could have the same attitude if he were in San Francisco.
19:12 ughlol Why is everybody trolling?
19:12 ughlol mircea_popescu: Now you understand why I wanted to pm?
19:12 ninjashogun ughlol - it's the nature of htis channel, I told you
19:12 Dimsler because you're a retard
19:12 ninjashogun ughlol, mirceau is not going to invest in you, unless oyu had a ton of traction
19:12 benkay Dimsler gets it
19:12 ninjashogun you would need to have a lot of different users already.
19:13 benkay dude ninjashogun if you say traction around mp he'll probably just kill you and feed you to the harpies
19:13 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 16 @ 0.065 = 1.04 BTC [-]
19:13 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.0516 = 0.1032 BTC [+]
19:13 ughlol true
19:13 benkay social media does not fly here.
19:13 dub guys guys guys
19:13 jurov rape whistle billionaires either
19:13 ninjashogun benkay - he doesn't like that word?
19:13 Dimsler lol
19:13 Dimsler its like
19:13 dub we're forgetting how important young people are
19:13 Dimsler scammers trying to scam the scammer
19:13 nubbins` dub ;(
19:13 ughlol Dimsler: :) You're so full of yourself. Give me your name, and I'll destroy your rep. Only if you have the courage.
19:13 nubbins` it's why i weep for tomorrow
19:13 ughlol And now Im done sugar-coating shit
19:14 * Dimsler takes out his cheque book
19:14 ughlol just to appease you, the filthy rich
19:14 Dimsler how many million
19:14 Dimsler should i write out for you?
19:14 ughlol Dimsler: just your real name bro.
19:14 nubbins` lel.
19:14 ughlol I bet you dont have the guts either way.
19:14 nubbins` bro
19:14 dub oh wow
19:14 nubbins` why you puffin' up your chest bro?
19:14 dub cause internet
19:14 Dimsler i know
19:14 Dimsler frontin
19:14 ughlol nubbins`: because I think I have an idea that works.
19:14 dub ;;google greater internet fuckwad
19:14 gribble Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory | Know Your Meme: <http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/greater-internet-fuckwad-theory>; Online disinhibition effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect>; Penny Arcade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Arcade>
19:14 Dimsler no you don't
19:14 jurov it whistles
19:14 ughlol And just because you're trolls doesn't mean you can talk shit about it! :)
19:14 Dimsler if you did why would you be in here
19:15 ughlol Dimsler: that is your opinion.
19:15 nubbins` ughlol: that's lovely, an idea! congrats :D
19:15 ughlol Dimsler: to try to gather investment ofc.
19:15 Dimsler no i think thats fact
19:15 nubbins` most people don't get that far
19:15 ughlol precisely
19:15 BingoBoingo ughlol: Have you tried #dogecoin ninjashogun Seemed to find interest there before
19:15 ughlol no BingoBoingo.. I haven't..
19:16 Dimsler lol why are you people entertaining him?
19:16 jurov it's her, no?
19:16 Dimsler its a woman?
19:16 ughlol wow
19:16 BingoBoingo ughlol: In #dogecoin you may even find people who want to try your social thing
19:16 Dimsler ughlol, where from nigeria are you from?
19:16 dub why didnt you say so? where to I sign
19:17 ughlol Dimsler: Its funny you ask. Because there were repeated statements saying Im Indian. You must be illitereate.
19:17 ughlol But thats okay.
19:17 Dimsler nigerian?
19:17 ughlol Illiterate*
19:17 ughlol Indian.
19:18 Dimsler why are you here?
19:18 Dimsler everyon said no
19:18 dub india and nigera are basically the same place
19:18 ughlol to try and find investment for a business.
19:18 Dimsler we are not interested
19:18 Dimsler now leave
19:18 ughlol dub: and you failed in geography.
19:18 mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/2014/interacting-with-fiat-institution-a-guide/
19:18 ozbot Interacting with fiat institution, a guide pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
19:18 mircea_popescu there we go.
19:18 steven-__ are you saying in this log you have never used source control only heard about it?
19:18 ughlol Dimsler: You are not interested.
19:18 Dimsler no
19:18 Dimsler nobody is interested
19:18 ughlol So you gtfo?
19:18 steven-__ Mar 17 22:52:09 <ninjashogun> how do you do source control?
19:18 steven-__ Mar 17 22:52:15 <ughlol> Github
19:18 steven-__ Mar 17 22:52:22 <ughlol> though i've never used it for any of my projects
19:18 ughlol I wanted to speak to mircea_popescu .
19:19 Dimsler lol why
19:19 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo bitcoinpete
19:19 ughlol If he says he's not interested, I'll leave immediately.
19:19 benkay holy shit mircea_popescu!
19:19 Dimsler mircea_popescu, tell the troll to leave
19:19 BingoBoingo ACK
19:19 jurov ughlol, you want to talk to him even after what he write on his blog?
19:19 ughlol Yes.
19:19 ughlol Just to discuss.
19:19 ughlol I feel theres nothing wrong in that.
19:19 ughlol But only if he likes.
19:19 Dimsler lol
19:19 ughlol If he asks me to leave, I'll gtfo.
19:20 Dimsler online panhandling
19:20 Dimsler masked as a scam
19:20 ughlol Im not even asking for money.
19:20 ughlol Im asking you to listen.
19:20 ughlol and think without bias.
19:20 bitcoinpete mircea_popescu: bam!
19:21 mircea_popescu so now that everyone else can be busy, ughlol what was it you wanted to discuss ?
19:21 ughlol mircea_popescu: let me know if you have 10minutes to spare.. after that, I'll not bother you.
19:21 ughlol But on pm, if you dont mind.
19:21 jurov what if he rapes you?
19:21 steven-__ what about the log?
19:21 ughlol I know im practically nothing, and probably don't even deserve talking to someone like you.
19:21 ughlol But I admire billionaires.
19:21 Dimsler ughlol, why? hes just a scammer like you are
19:21 ughlol Thats my dream, which I might never reach.
19:22 Dimsler you might even learn somethin from him
19:22 mircea_popescu it's not practical to discuss things with me privately. we have no basis for that, and whatever you say is perhaps useful for others, later.
19:22 ughlol Dimsler: Yes, I am sure I can learn something from him. Hence I want to talk.
19:22 BingoBoingo "Asking them to pick up your daughter and throw her over a cliff however is an illegal request."
19:22 jurov Dimsler she learned nothing so far
19:22 jurov 10 mins wont change that
19:23 Dimsler oh well
19:23 ughlol mircea_popescu: I wont ask you about investment. Just want to learn and understand your opinion. I read your blog article, and what you say makes a lot of sense. Thats why.
19:23 ughlol Its a request.
19:23 mircea_popescu so go ahead and ask, what.
19:23 ughlol Over pm please?
19:23 mircea_popescu lemme explain how this works.
19:23 ughlol Otherwise all your friends - Dimsler, jurov, etc will keep interrupting with their comments.
19:23 ughlol ok?
19:24 mircea_popescu i'm currently donating my time discussing things with people who otherwise would never get to talk to me, because i believe in some things.
19:24 Dimsler lol
19:24 mircea_popescu you can't try to leverage that into something that otherwise costs a whole lot of money.
19:24 ThickAsThieves thanks for the post MP
19:24 ughlol Im only asking 10mins on a private chat.
19:24 ThickAsThieves very interested to see how they proceed, assuming you'll share
19:24 pizzaman1337 yeah, awesome post. Keep us updated! :D
19:25 ThickAsThieves also interested to see how they proceed, knowing you are sharing
19:25 Dimsler nie gavarit pa rusku?
19:25 mircea_popescu ThickAsThieves i dun imagine there's any proceeding to be had.
19:25 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: re: sec: lol!
19:26 ughlol mircea_popescu: Can you spare 10mins on pm, or you want me to gtfo like everybody else wants?
19:26 mircea_popescu very cheeky attitude, "here's the extrusion process we expect everything to go through, we'll just keep repeating it"
19:26 mircea_popescu sorta feels like talking to customer support.
19:26 Dimsler mircea_popescu, which post are they talking about
19:26 mircea_popescu ughlol you know what a fake dichotomy is ?
19:26 mircea_popescu Dimsler latest prolly.
19:26 Dimsler nvm
19:26 Dimsler got it
19:26 ughlol mircea_popescu: yes, a little bit.
19:27 ughlol a false dilemma
19:27 ninjashogun ughlol - you should not try so hard for a PM now
19:27 mircea_popescu aha. so, take your time, ask whatever it is you need to ask.
19:27 ninjashogun ughlol - access to mirceau (I just read the most recent few lines, haven't been reading scrollback) is, as he correctly states, a VERY good opportunity
19:27 ninjashogun you should use it for when you have shipped, have a good idea, paying users, and good traction.
19:27 benkay tiberius?
19:27 benkay is that you tiberius?
19:27 ughlol oh
19:27 ughlol okay
19:27 ninjashogun nobody invests in the idea stage.
19:28 ughlol my bad then
19:28 ughlol mircea_popescu: simple question, if i create a prototype for the app that i want to build, would you even consider investing in it?
19:28 mircea_popescu ughlol no.
19:28 mircea_popescu you don't have the position to promote that particular thing. you need a different idea.
19:28 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Is the timestamp on that last email correct?
19:28 ughlol mircea_popescu: a different idea how?
19:29 ughlol You want me to completely change the idea?
19:29 ughlol Or modify it a little bit?
19:29 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40450 @ 0.00088766 = 35.9058 BTC [+] {3}
19:29 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo no it is not. fixed now and ima check the whole stack.,
19:30 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Thanks. WOnder how long it will take for the SEC position to align with the reality of MPEx as SRO
19:30 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, I saw your article on ughlol and think it completely misrepresents ughlol's idea and is extremely unfair. As long as it includes no identifying information, it's a simple troll and abuse of your power - which is fine. It will disappear off the Internet and nobody will read it again. However it is in no way accurate based on my conversation with him.
19:30 mircea_popescu ninjashogun can you be specific ?
19:31 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, what do you mean? http://trilema.com/2014/you-cannot-fix-a-machine-by-just-power-cycling-it-with-no-understanding-of-what-is-going-wrong/
19:31 ninjashogun is the one I'm talking about.
19:31 mircea_popescu that much i understand.
19:31 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo may take another secx.
19:31 mircea_popescu oops.
19:31 ninjashogun Based on my impression, the same thing could have been said about Twitter or Facebook.
19:32 mircea_popescu i don't have a very good impression of either.
19:32 assbot [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 20 @ 0.0056864 = 0.1137 BTC [-] {2}
19:32 ninjashogun Facebook could be called: "A myspace based on a radical idea. You can ONLY register if you have a .edu account! They have literally just blown myspace out of the water by getting AT MOST 0.5% as many users, because at most 0.5% - one in one two hundred - people in the world uses an active .edu account."
19:33 ninjashogun "Why limit yourself to 6 billion people when you can limit yourself to FIFTY MILLION?"
19:33 BingoBoingo ninjashogun: Based on reading the public conversation in this channel it seems the Rape WHistle app came first and today's social network idea is new.
19:33 mircea_popescu ninjashogun i think you perhaps misjudge the quantity of luck involved in facebook becoming facebook.
19:33 ninjashogun It was what was on his mind at the time. What you're missing is that it was on his mind due to a pain point (read news about India).
19:34 Dimsler ninjashogun, yeah right
19:34 Dimsler your scammer pal
19:34 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, yes, this is the big defense of trolls. That if it does succeed it's luck, if it fails then obviously it's because it was a dumb idea just as shown by the trolls.
19:34 mircea_popescu Dimsler why so aggro anyway
19:34 Dimsler i dunno
19:34 Dimsler lol
19:34 mircea_popescu lol
19:34 Dimsler i'm not aggro
19:34 ninjashogun Dimsler, did you catch the fact that I posted my whole convo (where I first met him) with ughlol?
19:34 BingoBoingo ninjashogun: The fact of the matter is that you can not recharacterize old text as a misrepresentation of a bunch of new text, yet to be released
19:35 ninjashogun ( http://pastebin.com/iTLNPmmq )
19:35 Dimsler ninjashogun, can you and ughlol panhandle elsewhere?
19:35 ninjashogun Dimsler, I haven't asked for anything.
19:35 ninjashogun I also consider it a terrible suggestion to ask for funding here, so on that I'm agreed.
19:35 ninjashogun I told ughlol as much.
19:36 mircea_popescu depends who.
19:36 ughlol Yes, you did..
19:36 mircea_popescu ThickAsThieves didn't even ask and ended up with "his" altcoin financed lol
19:36 mircea_popescu much to his chagrin
19:36 ughlol I was very impressed with mircea_popescu's suggestions last time.. thought I would give it a shot.
19:36 mircea_popescu (dja even own any atc tat ?)
19:36 ninjashogun However, we do need to keep a few things in mind. Did you know that VC's (private VC's, managing Limited Partners' cash) get a little bit short of the NASDAQ in returns over the 10-year period of their funds?
19:36 mircea_popescu so i guess now you can appreciate the luck point.
19:37 ninjashogun The net result (the 2 and 20 basis) of VC's working 60-100 hours a week on investment opportunities, proprietary dealflow, networking, term sheets, introductions, everything.... is a return just shy of passive over the counter index investment.
19:37 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13100 @ 0.00088768 = 11.6286 BTC [+] {2}
19:37 benkay ninjashogun: so why would anyone play a retarded game like that?
19:38 ninjashogun benkay because (I heard this from a guy named rmah, active on #startups) because VC's are WAY better salesmen than you or I will ever be.
19:38 ninjashogun they sell their funds to their LP's (limited partners)
19:38 ninjashogun that's why those people play those "retarded games".
19:38 benkay so you want to run the same scam here?
19:38 ninjashogun But when Mark Zuckerberg was at Harvard and scamming some guy with a map site out of $2000 that he used to partly build Facebook....
19:39 ninjashogun benkay - no, I don't seek investment here
19:39 benkay lottery argument.
19:39 benkay fails.
19:39 ninjashogun and I also think that ughlol is wrong to do so.
19:39 ninjashogun benkay - the lottery argument is that it's a net loss. But the whole of the PE (private equity) market is a net gain (for all participants). It's an inflating pie.
19:40 ughlol I wanted to interact with mircea_popescu ..
19:40 ninjashogun When you buy a lottery ticket you get less than a dollar on each dollar you spend. (on average). But investments aren't the same.
19:40 ninjashogun ughlol, you can interact with him here. But I woudn't solicit funding at this stage.
19:40 benkay kakobrekla: i think tiberius is back
19:40 ughlol I agree.
19:40 ughlol mircea_popescu: you didn't tell me, you said I need to change the idea. Completely? In what way?
19:41 mircea_popescu ughlol do you understand the concept of "rent seeking" ?
19:41 ughlol mircea_popescu: quite honestly, no..
19:41 Dimsler well then learn it
19:41 ughlol googling it
19:41 mircea_popescu yes, well, basically economic activity can be divided in entrepreneurial (which expands the pie) and rent seeking (which redistributes the pie)
19:41 ninjashogun benkay- here's a way to think about the 'lottery argument'. Do you think it would be a net gain or a net loss for the economy if we took IBM's market cap -- $192.19B -- converted it to cash, and then funded about $200k into a graduate student's new "company" (about the money Google was funded with).
19:42 mircea_popescu your idea is principally of the second type, and as such it requires the usual trappings of rent seeking (ie, power).
19:42 ninjashogun And we did that with not just one graduate student (or pair), but we did it with 10,000 of them - all over the world. Per year. For 100 years.
19:42 ughlol mircea_popescu: I agree.. yes.
19:42 ninjashogun After you do that for 100 years, do you think you produce MORE or LESS net value for the economy than IBM's current value?
19:42 mircea_popescu ninjashogun you have your answer ready : vcs do exactly that, and they lag the indexes.
19:42 benkay probably less. most grad students are brainwashed rule-followers.
19:42 mircea_popescu so no, it'd not be a good idea.
19:42 ninjashogun every year 10,000 founders per year seed funded with $200K... for 100 years.
19:43 ughlol mircea_popescu: So I would need to create an economic activity that expands the pie
19:43 ninjashogun mirceau_popescu- not really. VC's make VERY few seed-stage investments. mostly series A.
19:43 ughlol Is that what you're trying to tell me?
19:43 mircea_popescu basically.
19:43 ughlol okay
19:43 mircea_popescu ninjashogun giving money to people for the reason that they're people never ends well.
19:44 ninjashogun but my point is that out of those 10,000 companies per year, most years would have SEVERAL that become billion-dollar companies.
19:44 BingoBoingo benkay: Don't forget the part where generally grad students are physically, emotionally, and morally broken... Or Aspies
19:44 mircea_popescu africa is chiefly a shithole today because the west has been dilligently observing a progreamme of giving them "free" shit.
19:44 mircea_popescu there's nothing more expensive than free.
19:44 ninjashogun Hell, YCombinator funds just 43 startups per year, also has seed funding of only $150K, and has already produced two billion-dollar companies (dropbox and airbnb)
19:44 ughlol mircea_popescu: do you have any suggestions on how I may modify the idea to expand the pie instead of redistribute it?
19:44 ninjashogun and that's with just 43 startups per year.
19:44 Dimsler must support liberia
19:44 Dimsler the real africa americans
19:44 mircea_popescu ughlol notrly. you're not known well enough for me to do anything like that.
19:44 Dimsler you can blame terrorist mandela
19:44 ninjashogun BingoBoingo, that's an important point
19:44 ninjashogun BingoBoingo, but they're often aspies who develop importnat proprietary technology.
19:44 Dimsler for the ongoings in africa
19:44 benkay ninjashogun: the notion that ughlol is founder material falls on its face when he dances like a monkey in here asking "how ams i even make money guys?"
19:44 mircea_popescu stick around, learn, make sense, over time you may become useful.
19:45 benkay but yeah, learning, working, delivering.
19:45 benkay those things matter.
19:45 ughlol mircea_popescu: done. Will do :)
19:45 ughlol and benkay :P that was funny. lol.
19:45 benkay glad you have a sense of humor
19:45 benkay if only ninjashogun were educable
19:45 ninjashogun benkay - as I probably mentioned, ughlol is not "founder material", today, in several senses. He is in India, with a very poor VC network, he is currently a university student who has never run a business, and he does not have a personal network that makes him investable. I don't necessarily suggest investing in him today.
19:45 benkay he might learn a thing or two from you
19:46 ughlol he was just standing up for me benkay.. :)
19:46 benkay hey guys i'm going to copy whatsapp
19:46 benkay can i list on mpex?
19:46 ughlol lol
19:46 * ughlol slaps benkay with a stinky trout
19:46 ughlol :P
19:47 benkay it's going to be worth 20B 'cause facebook bought the other one for a lot of money
19:47 ughlol LMFAO
19:47 ughlol do i really sound like that?
19:47 BingoBoingo benkay: WhatSnatch, the all vag chat network
19:47 benkay ur all gonna miss out on this one
19:47 mircea_popescu wetsnatch ?
19:47 benkay k boarding plaane
19:47 benkay later all
19:47 ninjashogun ughlol, however notice how many of those questoins are addressed if you juts create a business (with no funding) and start getitng users? Then you are already in some sense an experienced (if first-time)founder, as well as having a real track record of shipping code (sometihng benkay was asking about.)
19:47 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 'snatchat.' 'twatter.'
19:48 ughlol ninjashogun: I agree. I will get to that immediately. :)
19:48 ughlol at least then, Dimsler might think im not just some random scammer
19:48 mircea_popescu lol
19:48 mircea_popescu snotchat
19:48 Dimsler oh shutup
19:48 Dimsler you're a random scammer
19:48 ughlol they insult, bit at least I can learn something
19:48 ninjashogun ughlol it doesn't matter what Dimsler thinks or (more likely) says
19:48 ughlol I love you too Dimsler
19:49 ughlol true
19:49 ninjashogun ughlol, you can't learn much here
19:49 ninjashogun you can mostly learn to keep things confidential
19:49 ughlol haha
19:49 ughlol true, that
19:49 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 52 @ 0.0036 = 0.1872 BTC [+]
19:49 ninjashogun For example, notice if instead of your actual idea you had said, you have an idea for a local app based on a new way of connecting people. Then they can't object. They would sound like idiots, because there is no way that EVERY possible local app is a bad idea.
19:49 ninjashogun they don't really have enough information - never give them enough information to act like an idiot.
19:49 mircea_popescu every possible local app is a bad idea.
19:49 mircea_popescu now what ?
19:50 ughlol Hmm, thats true.
19:50 ughlol lol mircea_popescu :P
19:50 ughlol you just have to argue huh?
19:50 ninjashogun now you sound like you're kididng, mirceau :)
19:50 ughlol thats what I like about rich people
19:50 ughlol they just dont give a fuck! :D
19:50 ughlol and thats awesome!
19:50 mircea_popescu druggies are the same way.
19:50 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 183 @ 0.0036 = 0.6588 BTC [+] {2}
19:50 ughlol lol
19:50 mircea_popescu anyway : there isn't a magical word manipulation thing that makes businesses.
19:50 ughlol mircea_popescu: maybe youre a mix of both?
19:51 mircea_popescu i suspect i'm the only clean one here actually.
19:51 ughlol haha
19:51 ughlol yeah right
19:51 only_ mircea not even alcohol?
19:52 mircea_popescu i drink, sure. but that's a drug now ?
19:52 mircea_popescu seems sugar'd have a better shot.
19:52 ughlol rofl
19:53 ninjashogun ughlol, above where you agreed that you should just build it (by yourself, no funding). with a web app it should be possible. thousands of people have done that.
19:53 ninjashogun however it is still hard
19:53 ninjashogun for example (this is laugh-worthy) I have just used vagrant to get a PHP server up. I've never used PHP (used Python a bit, as well as C++ and Perl).
19:54 ughlol Yes, I'll work hard towards developing a prototype and getting users.
19:54 ninjashogun to get from where I am today to an MVP will probably take me a month.
19:54 ughlol maybe then mircea_popescu would be interested! :)
19:54 ninjashogun it's really hard.
19:54 ninjashogun ughlol, doubtful
19:54 ughlol lol
19:54 ninjashogun however as I mentioned to you there are a TON of sources of interest to you once you have users.
19:54 ughlol maybe other investors?
19:54 ughlol Yes, true.
19:54 mircea_popescu ninjashogun a dubious proposition. look at the recent business insider refinance,
19:55 mircea_popescu or look at the sad history of digg
19:55 ninjashogun just a few include: angellist, kickstarter and indiegogo, sell gold or points, b2b deals or referral fees, there is even crypto stock if you want to raise online funds.
19:55 ughlol and mircea_popescu, thanks for pointing out that rent-seeking thing.. I think I understand what you mean. :) I'll work on changing the idea and creating a prototype! <3
19:55 ughlol ah well, need to go now guys
19:55 ninjashogun what do you mean on - business insider refinance?
19:55 mircea_popescu ughlol how old are you anyway ?
19:55 ughlol will visit here more often! :D You guys are stuck up, but real fun! :D
19:55 ughlol mircea_popescu: 19
19:55 ninjashogun oh
19:55 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20657 @ 0.00088369 = 18.2544 BTC [-] {3}
19:55 ninjashogun I thought you were about 21
19:55 ughlol I look real old dont I :/
19:56 ughlol damn.
19:56 ninjashogun you should definitely ship anything.
19:56 mircea_popescu eh, whatever you do it's gonna be good for you.
19:56 only much love ughlol, don't give up the good fight
19:56 ughlol thanks only!! :)
19:56 ughlol mircea_popescu: <3 ^_^
19:56 only lol
19:56 ughlol cya later guys
19:56 ninjashogun just remember not to say enough to make your startup more specific than a category, then you can never receive a "no" and will interest people who can work on it or help you with it.
19:56 Dimsler oh yeah
19:56 ninjashogun if they're not interested you can get a firm no right away without also hearing that you're an idiot.
19:57 Dimsler teach him how to be abetter scammer
19:57 ughlol Will definitely keep that in mind ninjashogun! Thanks for the introduction here, and sorry that your rep went down.
19:57 ughlol Dimsler: yeah yeah, blah. I love you too. Happy?
19:57 ughlol Dont get butthurt because I forgot to say I love you.
19:57 ninjashogun Dimsler, I think some aspects of recruiting cofounders, investors, and even customers, have something in common with 'scamming'. So is putting an MVP up.
19:57 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 41 @ 0.00368 = 0.1509 BTC [+]
19:58 ughlol cya later everybody! :)
19:58 ninjashogun There was a story about an MVP with fake buttons that didn't do anything - they just said "Download as Excel File" for example and see who clikced on it to guage interest.
19:58 ughlol bye ninjashogun, mircea_popescu, Dimsler <3, only!! :)
19:58 ninjashogun that's a "scam" because it exposed functionality that was a lie.
19:58 only cheers mate
19:58 ninjashogun but it helped the startup hone in on what the market wanted.
19:58 ninjashogun Likewise, I've talked with MANY people associated with YCombinator-backed startups (the most famous incubator) and worked for one.
19:59 ninjashogun Many early employees report that founders are full of "half-lies".
19:59 ninjashogun I agree. The job of a founder is to create a half-lie, and the job of the cofounders and early employees is to add the other half.
19:59 ninjashogun + of the investers, and in some cases the customers who are early adopters and willing to put up with buggy-ass #$#@$
19:59 ninjashogun because they believe in the vision.
19:59 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: re: SEC piece: the use of rsa signing is not unknown among u.s. bureaucrats;
20:00 asciilifeform but it is generally limited to DOD desk-flyers, and uses an ms-outlook plugin
20:00 asciilifeform key is kept on a card
20:00 asciilifeform read by winblows driver
20:00 mircea_popescu oh great.
20:00 asciilifeform used to have one myself.
20:01 mircea_popescu ninjashogun what's the problem with being called an idiot iyo ?
20:02 asciilifeform card had mug shot and a serial number (for being taken prisoner, among other things! because contractors can also star in beheading vids.)
20:02 mircea_popescu anyway, this vapid "half lie" model, and all the cruddy webapps/mobile apps stuff has very little life left in it, even in the fiat world.
20:02 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, well the main problem is that you need to reserve your hardest edge for when you need it the most. I've spend very long hours discussing very deep technical points without calling something "idiotic". It can be broken, wrong, unexpected, totally incompatible, etc. Those words are more specific.
20:02 mircea_popescu this isn't the fiat world.
20:02 asciilifeform http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Img-card-topology-front.png
20:03 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, and more importantly those words allow the problem to be fixed.
20:03 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, my 'half-lie' model applies to everything that is new and being built.
20:03 ThickAsThieves i did end up with some with some ATC, but haven't had the chance to keep up with it. it seems without tender loving care it cannot thrive.
20:03 mircea_popescu asciilifeform what they use that as a sort of cardano ?
20:03 ninjashogun There are a TON of errors that are always hidden and swept under the rug.
20:03 mircea_popescu ninjashogun no , it does not. it has nothing to do with anything other than the particular way the usg implements welfare for a certain subset of the youth population.
20:04 ninjashogun The image of a startup is like a duck -calm above the water but paddling like hell underneath.
20:04 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, sorry what are you talking about not working?
20:04 mircea_popescu ThickAsThieves so you're basically like thickoshi... abandoned it ?
20:04 mircea_popescu ninjashogun none of the examples you cut out of the real world and pasted onto your model as "eventual upper bound results" have anything to do with the model itself.
20:05 BingoBoingo ThickAsThieves: Mabe try loving it again?
20:05 ThickAsThieves i'm more likely to "
20:05 ThickAsThieves come bacl"
20:05 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, could you be more specific please!
20:05 ThickAsThieves i will
20:05 ThickAsThieves probably
20:05 mircea_popescu the vc circus as you represent it has not produced facebook, has not produced google, will never produce anything.
20:05 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i think it takes hash of something and signs it (with embedded key) then shits it out
20:05 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, I'm sorry you are factually mistaken.
20:05 asciilifeform api is half-documented somewhere
20:05 mircea_popescu well then we can end this conversation right here
20:05 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 4 @ 0.59825 = 2.393 BTC [-] {2}
20:05 asciilifeform a little like the 'opengpgsmartcard' but more winblowsy
20:06 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, let's walk through it. If Facebook had been the same in every way, except Mark Zuckerberg was transplanted to be an Oxford student instead (same skills, same drive, same ideas) - what would have happened?
20:06 ThickAsThieves if i had access to reliable and worthy crypto developers i'd have probably spat out several companies and things by now
20:06 mircea_popescu ninjashogun counterfactuals are good for reddit masturbation. this isn't a good venue for it.
20:06 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, the ansewr is very simple. he would not have gotten an investment or interest from peter thiel. Or any VC. And nobody outside of 10,000 people would know the word "facebook".
20:06 ThickAsThieves problem is i'm not ready to commit to being a "CEO" of anything
20:06 ninjashogun It shows you very clearly the role that VC money plays.
20:06 mircea_popescu and oyu know this because why
20:06 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 3 @ 0.5901 = 1.7703 BTC [-] {2}
20:07 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: in case this isn't obvious, it is trivial to patch a chump's ms-outlook to color a mal-signed message the requisite colour.
20:07 mircea_popescu asciilifeform wait but isn't that illegal ?!
20:07 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it was 'pki' crapola all the way down
20:07 asciilifeform haha
20:07 mircea_popescu lol.
20:07 ThickAsThieves well that's *one* of my problems...
20:07 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, I've lived in Boston, New York, San Francisco, Paris, Berlin (a bit) as well as some Eastern European cities. I've been interested in startups in all of them, have worked for one in the first dot-com bubble in the 90's. I can tell the difference between different climates and how people behave in them.
20:07 asciilifeform thing worked exactly the way alert reader would expect it to.
20:07 mircea_popescu you don't understand dood, i read in the guardian that the us caught a bunch of russian spies by displaying a dazzling array of technical superiority.
20:08 asciilifeform rusty staples?
20:08 mircea_popescu ninjashogun or so you think.
20:08 mircea_popescu asciilifeform remember the hot ukrainian chick ? anna whatever ?
20:08 asciilifeform aha
20:08 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, let me put it to you like this. If ughlol were farther along, and actually already convinced 10 engineers at his university to be 'cofounders' for equity totalling 5%, 95% to him (which would show GREAT founder skill) and got some traction. HIs company would still probably die, and those 10 people would leave. Because he is in India.
20:09 mircea_popescu you know what a non sequitur is ?
20:09 ninjashogun Now you repeat hte same thing in Cal Tech and he has a term sheet for $1M at $3M valuation within 3 weeks of launch.
20:09 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2010/07/us-swaps-russian-spies-for-russian.html
20:09 ninjashogun and his company may OR MAY NOT die. But if it takes off, it's (in part) due to investor sentiment.
20:09 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yeah them
20:10 ninjashogun To use another example. Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak built what turned out to be $500B company in very large part on the investment climate in the area.
20:10 ninjashogun if they were two kids doing hte same thing in just about any part of the world, they would have nothing 30 years later.
20:11 mircea_popescu jesus god.
20:11 mircea_popescu dude, you know like a thin sliver of the pudding top.
20:11 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, yes, I know this.
20:11 ninjashogun I know it from trying to build a hardware business, and suddenly seeing that none of that sliver is interested.
20:11 mircea_popescu well so then stop hopping up and down on it
20:11 mircea_popescu it's damned thin
20:11 asciilifeform hasty pudding, no less.
20:12 mircea_popescu here's a little known anecodte, kinda instructive as to the sort of guy jobs was :
20:12 asciilifeform (for many years i thought 'making hasty pudding' meant 'shitting one's pants.')
20:12 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, in a lot of ways it's enshrined into the way MANY people think. Some of it is legal (only accredited investors can be targeted; accredited investors display groupthink). Other parts of it are cultural - a lot of people just feel the same way.
20:12 mircea_popescu actually look at that, it's on wikipedia.
20:12 mircea_popescu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakout_(video_game)
20:12 ozbot Breakout (video game) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
20:12 mircea_popescu grep for bushnell offered
20:13 ninjashogun ok
20:13 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 137 @ 0.00368 = 0.5042 BTC [+]
20:13 ninjashogun is this about the money jobs didn't share?
20:14 mircea_popescu no, it's about wozniak working his ass straight for 700 bucks, over 4 days.
20:14 mircea_popescu that comes down to... 7 dollars an hour.
20:14 mircea_popescu now tell me again about "the environment"
20:14 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, the way I interpret that is that Steve Jobs used the $5000 to start Apple and make his friend a billionaire.
20:15 mircea_popescu woz was never a billionaire.
20:15 ninjashogun No?
20:15 ninjashogun fine, a $100Millionaire
20:16 ninjashogun More to the point - for our purposes - you would not have lent the young Steve Jobs $5000 yourself, even if he had to repay 10x the amount, 50x the amount, 100x the amount, ore ven 500x the amount (at any point in the future) All of which would have been in his power.
20:17 ninjashogun instead, he had to scam his friend for it. Just like Zuckerberg had to scam some map guy out of $2000.
20:17 asciilifeform 'had to' ? jean valjean ?
20:17 ninjashogun steve jobs could have borrowed $5000 from you and relent 500x as much. But you wouldn't have been interested. That is $2.5M.
20:17 ninjashogun asciilifeform, yes, "had to"
20:18 mircea_popescu you're on to creating counterfactuals about me now ?!
20:18 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 69 @ 0.00368799 = 0.2545 BTC [+] {2}
20:18 mircea_popescu what's this, risk taking for fun and profit
20:19 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, fine. Lend me $17,000 now and at some point in my career I will repay you 500x (8.5M). I am 30 now and it has to be in the next 30 years.
20:19 mircea_popescu so you're zuck now ?!
20:20 ninjashogun I don't have to be zuck to repay $8.5M. Tens of thousands of people can do it, not just a few hundred billionaires.
20:20 BingoBoingo ninjashogun: is roughly a pound of flesh, with reasonable blood loss acceptable security?
20:20 mircea_popescu i wish us schools went back to teaching logic and shit instead of all this self esteem and marketing bs they do
20:20 asciilifeform ninjashogun: get a credit card?
20:21 only lol
20:21 asciilifeform ninjashogun: sell motorcycle?
20:21 asciilifeform 17k isn't a fortune
20:21 ninjashogun I don't htink $8.5M is a fortune. if I had that in cash today I wouldn't sit on it, I would do further startups.
20:21 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: One problem is mainstreaming, all the US students get exposed to the special ed curriculum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainstreaming_%28education%29
20:21 asciilifeform ninjashogun: you said you wanted 17k
20:21 ninjashogun That doesn't mean I consider it a lot of money.
20:22 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 77 @ 0.003688 = 0.284 BTC [+]
20:22 asciilifeform ninjashogun: if you know how to turn it into 8.5M, then borrow it from whoever
20:22 asciilifeform the local mob, if you must
20:22 mircea_popescu "We survive on donations averaging about 50 lei. Now is the time we ask. If everyone reading this right now gave 25 lei, our fundraiser would be done within an hour."
20:22 mircea_popescu fuckwits
20:22 mircea_popescu they can harp about obscure currency nobody heard about, they still won't bow to bitcoin
20:22 ninjashogun asciilifeform, I don't know how to turn it into $8.5M. If I did I wouldn't be talking about the next 40 years, would I?
20:22 ninjashogun asciilifeform, likewise steve jobs did not know how to make a $500B company when he was 25.
20:23 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27200 @ 0.00088165 = 23.9809 BTC [-] {3}
20:23 ninjashogun sorry, next 30 years ;-)
20:23 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo "Access to a special education classroom, often called a "self-contained classroom or resource room", is valuable to the student with a disability."
20:23 mircea_popescu so if it's valuable to X, why should Y pay for it ?
20:24 mircea_popescu how great is this, they've invented the free lunch (again)
20:24 ninjashogun asciilifeform, I am not interested in being involved with the local mob. You seem to consider this a short-term thing, but that's not at all what I stated, is it?
20:25 ninjashogun asciilifeform, "then borrow it from whoever". Funny how that goes, isn't it? That loan is how I came into this channel. It doesn't work like that.
20:25 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Cause self esteem. Seriously this shit started in the 1980's
20:25 asciilifeform ninjashogun: if you live in usa, just about any bank will give you a credit card good for $20K+
20:25 asciilifeform but, you gotta pay it back
20:25 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i think you have to have a residence and income
20:25 asciilifeform am i mistaken in my understanding that you don't like the 'paying back' part ?
20:25 ninjashogun asciilifeform, I'm from the USA but at the moment I'm not living there, I've been working on my proprietary hardware startup in a much lower-income country.
20:26 ninjashogun asciilifeform, yes, you are quite mistaken in your understanding that I don't like the paying back part.
20:26 asciilifeform ninjashogun: then why not go to a bank?
20:26 ninjashogun asciilifeform, because I don't have assets?
20:26 ninjashogun asciilifeform, because I've been working on my startup for no salary?
20:27 ninjashogun asciilifeform, because banks don't consider incorporated companies with assigned intellectual property to be meaningful collateral?
20:27 asciilifeform ninjashogun: if you take some employment (even temporarily) bank will lend you $.
20:27 ninjashogun I don't have the time to take employment, even temporarily. Two months ago I was invited to give a demo with the working prototype as part of closing a $150K investment. I need to finish it.
20:28 asciilifeform i'm not the least bit of 'rockefeller' but i shred & throw out 3-4 unsolicited 'platinum' cards in the snailmail every week or so
20:28 asciilifeform they try to shove these things down your throat here
20:28 ninjashogun More to the point, at this point taking the employment you talk of would entail abandoning my team here, all of my work and living arrangements (about $150/month burn rate), as well as somehow moving to an expensive city and working full time there. My startup would cease to exist.
20:28 asciilifeform these people salivate, they dream, of lending money
20:29 asciilifeform ninjashogun: take one of your loyal men and order him to do it, then
20:29 mircea_popescu 150/month living arrangements ?!
20:29 mircea_popescu that's a very small amount of harem right htere.
20:30 dub its funny I dont get unsolicetd cards from my primary bank anymore
20:30 dub after my house was burgled and an unopened one was used to defraud them :)
20:30 ninjashogun asciilifeform, given my high-risk profile what APR would you (personally) extend me on between $7K-$22.5K (amount I take depends on APR) with no collateral except a registered Delaware C-Corp I'm currently full owner of (100%) going to 90% after an investment clears that I've committed to - the company has intellectual property including a patent that is pending and trademark that has been assigned, as well the equipment I
20:30 ninjashogun would spend most of the money on can also become collateral.
20:31 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 150 @ 0.00368808 = 0.5532 BTC [+] {2}
20:31 asciilifeform ninjashogun: around here, you only need collateral in the usual sense for a cash loan, but not for 'revolving credit'
20:31 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, yes, rent in a very small room in a very large shared apartment, is $111 (after some clever negotiation from me based on how infrequently the room could be rented out due to its size). This includes all eelectricity bills, the Internet (that I'm using now) hot water, gas, utilities.
20:31 asciilifeform for the latter, you just need a human with some proof of income
20:31 mircea_popescu incredible.
20:32 ninjashogun asciilifeform, I have no proof of income due to the fact that I have been working without pay for my startups (startup at the moment)
20:32 ninjashogun sorry, I meant to write: without pay for my startup (and now startups) - as I started working on the jobs site one after spending more than a month trying to collect the loan I closed
20:32 asciilifeform ninjashogun: so you built the mexican factory prior to, rather than after, securing funding. this is not a fatal mistake
20:32 mircea_popescu well once your hardwar estart-up succeeds this will be pretty epic material.
20:32 asciilifeform just take one of the loyal men and order him to get temporary job and borrow.
20:32 ninjashogun I was extended this loan (basically) we did up paperwork for it and then I've been trying to collect it for over 5 weeks without luck. I can't get back in contact wiht the person (after exchanging many forms of contact). so so much after how easy it is to get a loan.
20:33 ninjashogun asciilifeform, sorry - I don't get your analogy?
20:33 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 3 @ 0.067 = 0.201 BTC [-]
20:34 ninjashogun asciilifeform, oh, you liken my arrangement here to a mexican factory? Well the problem with that is that this is where the development was being done, not production. We ahve a manufacturing partner lined up actually, production will be in China.
20:34 ninjashogun asciilifeform, I had to make an unbelievable amount of progress to get offered a seed round on a hardware project that has not yet been completed and has no traction.
20:34 asciilifeform ninjashogun: traditionally, one first secures capital and only then gets on the hook for business obligations (employees, factory floor, etc.)
20:35 ninjashogun asciilifeform, at this point I need the loan in order to get to the stage of prototype that the investors need to test (as part of their due dilligence also) and see in close to the final form factor.
20:35 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 37 @ 0.0036944 = 0.1367 BTC [+] {4}
20:35 ninjashogun asciilifeform, I know how one "traditionally" secures capital, but it is usually against assets such as a house, etc.
20:36 ninjashogun asciilifeform, in startups, on the other hand, it's usual to build an MVP using processes that don't scale, and without spending much money, until financing is secured.
20:36 asciilifeform ninjashogun: if i were anyone else, i'd swallow this. but i'm doing much the same thing you said you did (hardware startup) but without passing begging hat
20:36 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 84 @ 0.00373263 = 0.3135 BTC [+] {2}
20:36 asciilifeform http://trilema.com/category/snsa/
20:36 ozbot S.NSA pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
20:37 ninjashogun asciilifeform, did you already discuss a $7M investment, implying a valuaiton of $15M, with a VC who has recently made a $400M exit in another consumer hardware company?
20:37 asciilifeform ninjashogun: i know what you'll answer: 'having a day job sucks.' and sure. but then you can pay for hardware, prototype runs, etc. without begging
20:38 asciilifeform ninjashogun: nope. and i'm not a baron, duke, anything, no titles of nobility
20:38 asciilifeform and implied values thereof
20:38 ninjashogun I don't mean to say anything about hte level of ambition you have in your hardware startup but usually a certified lab for developing ours costs $60K, which I am going to do on about $8K in used eBay equipment.
20:39 ninjashogun (this is certified 2.4 ghz wireless equipment, this portion)
20:39 ninjashogun Note that the wireless portion doesn't exist at all. I don't even have a specan (spectrum analyzer). The only eqiupment I developed is with large arduinos, as well as mockups of what it could look like.
20:39 asciilifeform sometimes you just can't play. i, for instance, might like to start a pharma company, but i checked my sofa cushions and there is not $1B to be found therein
20:40 asciilifeform (which local government requires for clinical trials)
20:40 ninjashogun But you can't show an investor a mockup, and a bundle of wires, and say, imagine if the latter looked like the former!
20:40 asciilifeform so i didn't start a pharma co.
20:40 asciilifeform imagine that
20:41 asciilifeform ninjashogun: try 'gold phoenix ltd.' (china) for prototypes.
20:41 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i thought you used to be a duke
20:41 asciilifeform very reasonably priced and respected
20:41 asciilifeform ahahaha
20:41 mircea_popescu how's the esteemed mr yarvin these days ?
20:41 mircea_popescu still leaking ?
20:41 asciilifeform (for those not in the know: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1352)
20:41 asciilifeform seems like it.
20:41 asciilifeform like a sieve.
20:41 ninjashogun asciilifeform, again, this is why I mention that Steve Jobs (a kid who stole $5000 from his best and only friend to start Apple), Mark Zuckerberg (a guy who scammed a map website guy out of $2000 to start facebook), and Larry Page (a poor grad student who had to give $50B away in equity to get an immigrant to code up his Larry Page Rank), also did not have the means to play.They couldn't play. They did anyway.
20:42 mircea_popescu maybe we should have a bet : katecraig wood delivers before yarvin's submarine plane stops leaking.
20:42 mircea_popescu ninjashogun you know what the selection fallacy is ?
20:43 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, fine. AirBNB had to sell Cereal. Yes Cereal. To fund their idea of a C2C ebay of Rentals.
20:43 mircea_popescu no listen.
20:43 mircea_popescu you only know the names of these dudes because you know the names of these dudes.
20:43 ninjashogun https://www.airbnb.com/obamaos
20:43 ozbot Obama O's: Hope in every bowl
20:43 ninjashogun that's what they sold
20:43 mircea_popescu you don't know the names of all the dudes that you don't know the names of.
20:44 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, so how would I learn from them? What use are they to me?
20:44 mircea_popescu well, they'd be the use to you that they'd give you a useful picture of the world.
20:44 asciilifeform day 1: a certain mr. smith wins lottery, $100M, lights $100 with $100 full of cocaine, on tv. day 2: stinking bum knocks on yer door - 'lend me $5.' you: 'why should i lend to a stinking bum?' bum: 'if i'd had $5, i could've won just like smith'
20:44 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, also, if my investors don't know of them, i can't leverage their background to get an investment, either.
20:44 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 94 @ 0.00374 = 0.3516 BTC [+]
20:44 mircea_popescu as it is you're proceeding on a very poor sample
20:45 mircea_popescu generally, the prisons are full of people who perceived they can't afford to play their chosen game and decided to try and play anyway.
20:45 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, I think your model is a very, very fair one under normal circumstances. (Such as the Efficient Market Hypothesis.) However, I have very deep theoretical proof that your model is mistaken, and that these founders were in fact leveraging the same opportunity inefficiency that I am.
20:45 mircea_popescu well, not a bad way to spend a life.
20:46 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, I don't know about the criminals, generally they're not very smart. But I do know about founders and creating something.
20:46 asciilifeform ninjashogun: so what are you wasting time with us for? go rob someone
20:46 ninjashogun asciilifeform, I was actually responding to the earlier statement (day 1: ...lottery) with my statement about his model being wrong.
20:46 ninjashogun The lottery model of startups is simply mistaken and wrong.
20:46 ninjashogun You can know this for a fact ,because
20:46 mircea_popescu and evil.
20:47 ninjashogun I don't know if it's evil or not but it's factually mistaken.
20:47 asciilifeform the lottery model applies when you are (from our point of view) a total wildcard.
20:47 BingoBoingo ninjashogun: That doesn't mean you can't grab a tire iron and supply a pawn shop with tvs until your enterprize is "funded"
20:47 mircea_popescu technically speaking the cards in the deck are a deterministic machine
20:47 mircea_popescu so not really any sort of lottery.
20:47 asciilifeform it's a lottery to the fellow who doesn't know the rng seed.
20:48 ninjashogun You can convince yourself of this fact by being nearly 100% sure that more than $190B in wealth would be created if 10,000 qualified engineering and bioscience etc grad student founders were funded at $200K each for 100 years. It's not a lottery - it's just some unusual percentages.
20:48 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo i wonder why not more people starting businesses from inside a us prison
20:48 mircea_popescu they get free food and net access afaik
20:48 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, the answer is that they do not have the right socioeconomic perspective.
20:48 mircea_popescu what's a socioeconomic perspective
20:49 asciilifeform afaik the u.s. socialist party was run from inside of a jail for a while.
20:49 asciilifeform so for certain values of 'business' - it wurks.
20:49 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Net access not so much, but... mail and telephones were good enough for IBM
20:49 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, it's the same reason (to be honest) that very few Romanians found startups and that you would have had far more trouble finidng cofounders if you didnt' want to do it alone, than you would have in (for example), Berlin, Rome, Brussels, London, Paris, Tokyo, etc.....
20:49 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo i thought they had interwebs too, no ?
20:49 ninjashogun it's a cultural issue.
20:50 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Maybe in limited cases, but The US isn't quite Norway or Denmark
20:50 asciilifeform i'd venture to guess that there are many romanian startups. just not registered officially.
20:50 asciilifeform (with bureaucrats)
20:50 ninjashogun asciilifeform, that is part of what I mean
20:51 ninjashogun asciilifeform, can you imagine doing due dilligence on a company that isn't even registered? That means only best friends can invest. Your pool of potential investors is literally limited to 7-20 people, no matter who you are in Romania. (Because that's how many people you trust through highschool.)
20:51 ninjashogun I'm generalizing, but only a little bit.
20:51 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 106 @ 0.00374 = 0.3964 BTC [+]
20:51 ninjashogun It's what was different about Palo Alto, for example.
20:51 mircea_popescu i dunno, rav for instance is a romanian startup
20:51 mircea_popescu so is gecad
20:52 mircea_popescu and a bunch of other stuff.
20:52 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, I don't mean to pick on Romania. For many of my examples I'm really thinking of Hungary, and using it as an analogy.
20:52 asciilifeform ninjashogun: did i just fall through time warp? 'mpex' not built yet?
20:52 mircea_popescu ungary is a tiny country.
20:52 ninjashogun The question isn't whether it was built - but how many Romanian cofounders or investors were on board?
20:53 ninjashogun romania has 21M people in it, Ungary has 10M
20:53 mircea_popescu doesn't seem likely you'll ever know that.
20:53 ninjashogun so about half the size by population
20:53 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, well I could just ask you. Not really that interested.
20:53 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29820 @ 0.00088581 = 26.4149 BTC [+] {2}
20:53 mircea_popescu every country ends up doing something. while hungary owned porn romania owned computers.
20:53 mircea_popescu each his own
20:53 ninjashogun :)
20:54 mircea_popescu but i know plenty of hungarian folk that really killed it in the 90s
20:54 ninjashogun mostly on state privatization though no?
20:54 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5282 @ 0.00088895 = 4.6954 BTC [+] {2}
20:54 mircea_popescu no, on porn.
20:54 ninjashogun The ones I know that made a killing did so by immigrating to the United States :)
20:55 ninjashogun asciilifeform, what does your hardware startup do?
20:55 ninjashogun or what are you building?
20:55 asciilifeform ninjashogun: a small gizmo, described here: http://trilema.com/snsa-first-product-the-cardano
20:56 asciilifeform ninjashogun: it's on mp's site, he's co-author
20:56 asciilifeform ninjashogun: http://trilema.com/category/snsa/
20:56 ninjashogun ok
20:56 ninjashogun I'm reading that page
20:57 mircea_popescu where did pankkake disappear to anyway
20:57 ninjashogun that first paragraph isa joke right? ("what's the idea")? like it's pseudo-lofty, right?
20:57 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: That's a very good question
20:58 ninjashogun anyway it's a good intro :)
20:58 mircea_popescu ninjashogun people who don't have to supervise their own humours to please a third party behave differently than the us norm.
20:58 asciilifeform ninjashogun: not joke
20:58 ninjashogun It's an intersting introduction. In the end I like it :)
20:58 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo i recall he was prepping for some surgery i hope they didn't end up cutting the wrong part.
20:59 ninjashogun I just wasn't sure if the tone is somewhat pseudo- or ironic, or it's meant to be read "straight"
20:59 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: That would be a terrible shame
20:59 asciilifeform well, that's how Korolev died
20:59 mircea_popescu hahaha
20:59 mircea_popescu asciilifeform did i actually write that ?!
21:00 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the intro thing? one of us did
21:00 asciilifeform forget which
21:00 mircea_popescu me too
21:00 asciilifeform lol
21:00 assbot [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 7136 @ 0.00015003 = 1.0706 BTC [-] {7}
21:00 mircea_popescu half why i even keep that blog, if i didn't write the shit up i'd end up forgetting it all.
21:00 asciilifeform same
21:01 asciilifeform used to just piss thing out into emacs orgmode but it helps when people harangue you to remember shit.
21:02 ninjashogun So, I like the idea very much.
21:02 ninjashogun That you've put here.
21:03 mircea_popescu http://pando.com/2014/02/24/everything-you-know-about-ukraine-is-wrong/
21:03 ozbot Everything you know about Ukraine is wrong | PandoDaily
21:03 mircea_popescu this is like remarkably good.
21:03 mircea_popescu im starting to like pando
21:05 ninjashogun asciilifeform, I have a suggestion for your next version. My suggestion is that the air gap with the computer be maintained, by running (a different brick) that is a wireless access point. You can connect to its wifi and use Firefox on localhost to upload and sign or upload and encrypt/decrypt files, which it would then serve back. This requires a computer with access to WIFI. However, I think in general a network stack
21:05 ninjashogun is more resilient than a USB stack against, for example, man in the middle attacks (if someone knows that you will use that usb drive they could put a fake USB controller in that MITM attacks it.
21:05 ninjashogun this suggestion isn't for the current version, which as a piece of hardware is great.
21:05 asciilifeform 'he crowds in Kiev, which can swell up to a million on a good day and are always in the hundreds of thousands, are there out of their own homegrown sense of outrage, not because some State Department bureaucrats willed them there' << author knows, or not, what it costs to feed & shovel shit for 1M-strong crowd ?
21:06 asciilifeform ninjashogun: wifi. with ssl, right. troll much ?
21:06 ninjashogun it would also save a connect and disconnect. And can be done unobtrusively at a computer, without having to insert a USB stick.
21:07 ninjashogun it could also come iwth storage, so that it could be used as a "wireless storage device" (thru the browser). rather than have to plug and unplug a usb stick.
21:07 asciilifeform trolling or total ignorance of the engineering realities. which?
21:07 mircea_popescu to further save costs, the entire thing could be done over the web, as an app
21:07 mircea_popescu with the dongle as a central server
21:07 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, let me think about this.
21:07 mircea_popescu asciilifeform have an aspirin.
21:08 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, Why not? assume that the other end is in the person's home. Then the wireless key is truly unusable.
21:08 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 'watch this video of Yanukovych’s snipers murdering unarmed protesters and tell me who the real fascists' << lol
21:08 ninjashogun mircea_popescu, in fact it could be set to ONLY sign/encrypt/decrypt the next 1 message or 2 messages. So that it can't be stolen off someone's body, as it's in theri home and will only sign the next 2 things.
21:09 ninjashogun I think this would be an interesting application for using one's private key without having it in one's possession.
21:09 mircea_popescu definitely.
21:09 mircea_popescu could even be an app
21:09 ninjashogun :) I undrestand what you're doing with the USB thing. However, I, personally, do not consider USB stacks to be very secure.
21:09 mircea_popescu asciilifeform btw, did you vote ? :p
21:09 mircea_popescu but srsly, what are your politics on the matter ?
21:09 asciilifeform vote?
21:09 ninjashogun I think there are a lot of unknowns over USB and it is a frequently underestimated attack vector, with very little security research being done.
21:10 asciilifeform 22 yrs. in mordor
21:10 mircea_popescu yes, there was a referendum neh ?
21:10 diametric ninjashogun: but you do configure wifi secure? lol..
21:10 diametric consider even.
21:10 ninjashogun I think wifi security has more attention paid to it, yes. Even when it's broken. Many eyes make security deeper.
21:10 asciilifeform me mom & pop voted 'nay' in ua indep. referendum in '91.
21:11 asciilifeform then we got on the plane.
21:11 mircea_popescu how did that split ? 15/85 ?
21:11 ninjashogun But this is not to detract from what you've done, asciilifeform (and mircea_popescu ?) Overall the device is a VERY good step.
21:11 ninjashogun and I like the basic idea of not having your key on another PC.
21:11 asciilifeform 92+ 'yay'
21:12 BingoBoingo ninjashogun: Doesn't Wifi violate the intent of an airgap even if there is "air" involved
21:12 ninjashogun BingoBoingo - yes, absolutely.
21:12 mircea_popescu asciilifeform so what was so bad about independence ? (trying to educate myself)
21:12 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: our friend is either trolling - or slept in a cave for years
21:12 ninjashogun BingoBoingo - you are right and for this reason I probably shouldn't ahve called it an "air" gap.
21:13 ninjashogun BingoBoingo, however, it is absolutely doubtless that wifi protocols get roughly 100x as much security research as the usb protocol does.
21:13 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: decolonialization is fun for some people, less for others.
21:13 BingoBoingo ninjashogun: I mean why not some sort of cable that might only incidentally happen to function as an antenna, for which shielding is possibly. WHy demand an active antenna throwing your bits around?
21:14 ninjashogun BingoBoingo, also, in my personal opinion as a security observer, a man in the middle attack with a PC (or laptop) being opened, and a second usb host being inserted between the real USB and the device, whose purpose is to subtlely alter what is being signed, is a very real risk.
21:14 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: there is a version of the apparatus (exists on my desk only, for foreseeable future) with no cables. slide cards in/out.
21:15 ninjashogun BingoBoingo, since this device as described does NOT retain the signed document in memory, it is therefore signing something without knowing what it is, if it has been transferred between the PC and storage medium.
21:15 ninjashogun I mean it retains no knowledge of what it signed. The person can't go home and check everything they've signed.
21:15 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: but in that version, you lose the card crypto
21:17 ninjashogun What changes with Wifi? Well, you can still have a man in the middle, but it would be much more prohibitive. It would need a complete access point that connects to the device masquarading as the computer, while exposing itself to the computer and hiding the true signal from the computer. It's possible, but more difficult. And in the end the computer can do a complete secure session (in javascript with the browser) compl
21:17 ninjashogun etely defeating the MITM.
21:17 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 3 @ 0.06894998 = 0.2068 BTC [+]
21:17 asciilifeform ninjashogun: wifi mitm takes all of five minutes to set up.
21:17 asciilifeform try it personally
21:17 asciilifeform don't take my word for it
21:17 BingoBoingo ninjashogun: My concern with WiFi is packet capture.
21:18 ninjashogun asciilifeform, packet capture is not a concern because you can establish a higher secure channel from Firefox on the computer all the way to the final device. This is possible because hte device can have a known fingerprint.
21:18 ninjashogun and it doesn't matter if there are devices in the way.
21:18 diametric mircea_popescu: your email exchange with the "SEC" is fantastic.
21:19 ninjashogun However, the current version transfers files in the plain over the USB protocol. it is 100% vulnerable to a USB mitm - which could probably be made so small that it almost fits in a usb drive.
21:19 dignork ninjashogun, your Firefox will trust almost any certificate, unless you'd verify it manually
21:19 mircea_popescu diametric why so ?
21:19 asciilifeform ninjashogun: suggested experiment. take a radio transmitter (a household walkie-talkie will do) and transmit, with a computer sitting nearby.
↖
21:19 asciilifeform watch the output with a receiver, see the little fuzz on the wave?
21:19 asciilifeform our friends at ft. meade call this 'NONSTOP'
↖ ↖
21:19 asciilifeform (not to be confused with 'TEMPEST')
21:19 diametric mircea_popescu: I enjoy your style of writing, and I wonder if she was prepared for that kind of response. I'm highly interested to see if anything else comes of it
21:19 ninjashogun asciilifeform, ....?
21:20 mircea_popescu she was utterly unprepared, from what i hear.
21:20 mircea_popescu the entire social stack was unprepared.
21:20 ninjashogun asciilifeform, okay.
21:20 asciilifeform i wish i had the energy to explain here, for stone age man, how a radio works
21:20 mircea_popescu apparently somehow they still don't see me coming, it's fascinating.
21:20 asciilifeform but essence is: there is an amplifier. it takes a small signal, uses it to modulate a carrier wave
21:21 ninjashogun dignork, it doesn't matter who firefox trusts. You can run a complete tunnel using javascript all the way to the final end-point. The whole point of PKI is that it doesn't matter who sniffs packets.
21:21 BingoBoingo I wonder how Many interns have been charged with reading trilema nao.
21:21 mircea_popescu a javascript pki tunnel
21:21 ninjashogun asciilifeform, I get your point.
21:21 ninjashogun sure
21:21 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo bout a dozen in the bucharest residentura.
21:21 ninjashogun it makes sense to me. You can always assume any computer will have javascript, and a wifi.
21:22 ninjashogun the wifi connects either a) to your device or b) to a MITM that connects to your device
21:22 asciilifeform ;;google NONSTOP TEMPEST
21:22 gribble An Introduction to TEMPEST - SANS Institute: <http://www.sans.org/reading-room/whitepapers/privacy/introduction-tempest_981>; NSA TEMPEST Documents - Cryptome: <http://www.cryptome.org/nsa-tempest.htm>; NACSEM 5112 NONSTOP Evaluation Techniques - Cryptome: <http://cryptome.org/nacsem-5112.htm>
21:22 dignork ninjashogun, your javascript is downloaded by firefox, from forgeable location ... p0wned
21:23 ninjashogun dignork - hmmm.. Well, on Mac and Linux you could do an md5sum or sha1sum on the javascript before you run it. On Windows you can only use a custom certificate, signed by yourself, and know the issuer.
21:24 asciilifeform ninjashogun: cardano is optionally usable inside a faraday cage. put that in your pipe & smoke.
21:24 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06894998 = 0.1379 BTC [+]
21:24 ninjashogun asciilifeform, this is not to take anything away from cardano - I like it.
21:24 ninjashogun asciilifeform, I was just suggesting some directions for version 2 or 3.
21:24 ninjashogun (my hardware has future versions as well, that we haven't done any work toward)
21:24 asciilifeform 'browser'? 'javascript'? 'ssl'? no thanks
21:25 asciilifeform i don't have anything against a man who eats turd. but i will eat, and serve my friends, sausage. not turd.
21:25 asciilifeform and to me they are not the least bit similar.
21:25 ninjashogun Overall I would suggest you consider it due to the amount of security attention that 1) the WIFI stack 2) browser communications, have received. You can leverage that.
21:25 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: ninjashogun: remember to ground the faraday cage
21:25 mircea_popescu yeah, leverage.
21:26 mircea_popescu leveraged security is like pretty cool
21:26 assbot [HAVELOCK] [HMF] 100 @ 0.0160071 = 1.6007 BTC [-] {6}
21:26 ninjashogun what, do you not like the word?
21:26 BingoBoingo Like leveraged gambling... Until they come for your kneecaps
21:26 mircea_popescu i despise the entire thinking process that got you there.
21:27 ninjashogun Fine, you can take advantage of that; you can make us of it; you can profit from it; you can be an indirect beneficiary of it; you can depend on it; you can rely on it; you can take it for granted
21:27 asciilifeform BingoBoingo, mircea_popescu - be so kind as to take care of our dear guest. i'ma lie down now.
21:27 ninjashogun make use of*
21:27 mircea_popescu i tihnk it's been enough for a day tbh.
21:27 ninjashogun asciilifeform, before you go -
21:27 ninjashogun what is that APR?
21:27 ninjashogun on the $7-$22.5K?
21:27 asciilifeform in gringolandia, 20% mebbe.
21:28 ninjashogun asciilifeform, if I can have up to a 3 year grace period I would accept that with the full $22.5K.
21:28 BingoBoingo ninjashogun: Have you considered that rather than leveraging a complex behemoth of other people's work which was produced with the potential of malice towards your intended cause, you could just make something simpler.
21:29 ninjashogun BingoBoingo - I always consider the simplest hting that could possibly work.
21:29 BingoBoingo Wifi and browsers are never the simplest things
21:30 ninjashogun I disagree, I think firefox running javascript is one of the simplest things to develop and target 100% of PC's with. Also it would work on some tablets, which have no USB subcomponent at all, but do have copy and paste and wifi connections.
21:30 BingoBoingo For all of the "work" on Wifi and browser security neither is particularly secure
21:30 BingoBoingo http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2334572/mozilla-firefox-is-exploited-four-times-at-hps-pwn2own-hacking-contest
21:30 ozbot Mozilla Firefox is exploited four times at HP's Pwn2own hacking contest- The Inquirer
21:30 ninjashogun on an iPad and iPhone, you can copy the text, connect to the brick's wifi, paste it, copy the result, and then reconnect to your normal wifi. These things don't have a USB stack at all.
21:31 BingoBoingo Sure, but your wifi broadcast traves how far from its point of origin?
21:31 ninjashogun Again, it doesn't matter if you reimplement PKI over javascript.
21:32 BingoBoingo Then your browser can scarcely sandbox javascript?
21:32 ninjashogun Better than it can a usb subsystem, yes.
21:32 ninjashogun I don't think packet sniffing is a problem if you tunnel over it.
21:33 ninjashogun Again, none of this is to take away from the design as I've already read about it here. I like it a lot.
21:33 dignork ninjashogun, alternatively, you could tunnel over usb
21:33 ninjashogun dignork - yes, it would also be a good idea.
21:33 ninjashogun dignork - but then they could no longer treat it as a mass-storage device.
21:33 BingoBoingo ninjashogun: I'm not defending his design. I'm am suggesting your "improvements" are abominable
21:34 BingoBoingo Honestly the improvement from USB would probably be RS-232
21:34 ninjashogun BingoBoingo - I learned of this literally 20 minutes ago. My improvements already have something that can at least theoretically work with an iPad and iPhone, which loads of people do their surfing on in the evening, and certainly don't want to keep keys on.
21:34 ninjashogun you're on the couch on your iPad, want to sign something an email it. Are you going to keep your key on your iPad?
21:34 BingoBoingo ninjashogun: Are you familiar with the actual concept of an airgap.
21:34 ninjashogun no.
21:35 ninjashogun BingoBoingo, Yes, I am. I realize this is not an airgap.
21:35 BingoBoingo http://trilema.com/2013/how-to-airgap-a-practical-guide/
21:35 ozbot How to airgap. A practical guide. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
21:36 BingoBoingo It isn't just about the definition of an airgap, but of the motivations behind it as well that make radio the wrong medium for connecting to such boxes
21:36 asciilifeform ok i'm back, because this is just too precious.
21:36 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 263 @ 0.00379999 = 0.9994 BTC [+] {2}
21:36 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: you'll be happy to learn that the box has rs232 now. (ttl level voltage)
21:36 BingoBoingo Sweet!
21:37 BingoBoingo I have a reason to get another SE/30
21:37 ninjashogun on http://trilema.com/2013/how-to-airgap-a-practical-guide/ - I would also suggest running several copies of hte same hardware next to each other. If they're all doing something, how is someone going to know which is the one that is of interest. This can even subvert someone physically ocming in and using it in your absence.
21:37 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: still gotta yank cables before rsa rom receives power though.
21:38 ninjashogun also the EM radiation might be similar when coming off of several similar computers.
21:38 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: That's fine.
21:39 BingoBoingo ninjashogun: Or just blast the area with cheap crt tv's playing reality shows, sound off.
21:39 ninjashogun asciilifeform, by the way don't let the haters take anyting away. All of my suggestoin are at a single layer - and do not in ANY way impact the basic idea you've come up with with mircea_popescu --- which is a VERY good one. I don't really add anything in my suggestoins - it is the same design. You should patent it.
21:39 asciilifeform ninjashogun: if you did not know the fact that a radio transmitter radiates not only what you want, but the state of nearby circuit, you know now.
21:39 asciilifeform this was a carefully kept secret for decades (if only from american public) so there is no shame in not knowing
21:40 ninjashogun the basic thing that you came up with is an escrowed key service embodied in a physical device that does not disclose the key, but uses it and discloses the result. This is a very good invention.
21:41 ninjashogun asciilifeform - how could it be kept from the public? Wouldn't every electrical engineer with a scope see it?
21:41 asciilifeform perhaps Semmelweis should have patented doctor washing hands.
21:42 BingoBoingo It's probably not too late for that
21:42 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 50 @ 0.0038 = 0.19 BTC [+]
21:43 ninjashogun asciilifeform, the fact is, if you want to get this into millions of people's hands you will have to invest half a million in research and manufacturing. it could be the only secure device in their whole household (if they run windows.)
21:43 mircea_popescu asciilifeform actually dr semmelweis is a major moment in the cultural history of medicine
21:43 asciilifeform 'U.S. Patent XXXXXXX: Method of preventing cadaverous poisoning using liquid dihydrogen monoxide.'
21:43 mircea_popescu when otherwise nice, smart guys realised that they had literally killed hundreds of women
21:43 asciilifeform i mentioned S for a reason.
21:43 mircea_popescu a major cultural shock, that.
21:43 ninjashogun asciilifeform, if you have to compete with Kingston copying your idea then you are dead in the water. You can't even make it to market.
21:44 ninjashogun maybe 20 years is too long for a patent to be valid - then consider donating it after 3 years or 7 years. You can assign it to a protective Open Source patent fund.
21:44 BingoBoingo ninjashogun: I think the point of the Cardano is it serves people who can not even entirely trust the security of *nix systems
21:45 ninjashogun BingoBoingo, I like it. It's also something you can unobtrusively carry around.
21:45 BingoBoingo Generally that distrust is the sort that comes from an abundance rather than a dearth of knowledge
21:45 mircea_popescu "it made me so miserable that life seemed worthless" and so on
21:45 asciilifeform if kingston, ibm, fuck, elektronika, were physically capable of building cardano, you would already have one.
21:45 ninjashogun BingoBoingo - in the eventual wifi version, no one would have to know that you even use it. if being surveilled by site, it wouldn't be obvious that it's on your person. (or whether it is).
21:46 ninjashogun asciilifeform, that's not true. They don't like to innovate.
21:46 asciilifeform there is an engineering term, 'ullage'
21:46 ninjashogun asciilifeform, but they do love to use other people's innovations.
21:46 asciilifeform do you know it?
21:46 ninjashogun me? no.
21:46 asciilifeform it's the key ingredient in hydrogen bomb, for instance.
21:46 asciilifeform it means, roughly, 'emptiness'
21:46 asciilifeform a correctly-shaped absence of something.
21:46 dignork ninjashogun, take RasPI, hook up wifi dongle and build one, maybe someone will buy, why arguing?
21:47 bitcoinpete All done mircea_popescu
21:47 ninjashogun dignork - you misinterpret my tone if you think I'm arguing. I like the idea of the Cardano very much, I think it's a genuine, useful, good, and non-obvious innovation, and I encourage asciilifeform in building it and getting it to market.
21:47 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 10 @ 0.06894998 = 0.6895 BTC [+] {2}
21:47 bitcoinpete http://bitcoinpete.com/2014/mircea-popescu-the-sec-wont-let-me-be/
21:47 ozbot Mircea Popescu: “The SEC Won’t Let Me Be.” Or, “I’ve Been Expecting You.” | When Bitcoin
21:47 asciilifeform required reading:
21:47 asciilifeform http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1299
21:47 ozbot Loper OS » Don’t Blame the Mice.
21:48 asciilifeform if you could take raspi or whatever, remove the mystery meat, add analogue rng - you would not need cardano.
21:48 ninjashogun dignork - further I don't have any problem with it in the current form. I think asciilifeform should patent it. I also suggest he work on just one layer of the solution, which is the physical transport layer, and consider bluetooth or wifi.
21:48 asciilifeform but if you take raspi, or pc on your desk, or whatnot, and remove the diseased meat, you will have... an empty crate.
21:48 mircea_popescu bitcoinpete now the work of submitting to hn and the smokinggun and so on begins :D
21:48 ninjashogun dignork, but for the next version.
21:48 ninjashogun dignork, after selling thousands of this one :)
21:49 asciilifeform ninjashogun: you were told about 'nonstop' and continue to suggest radio transmitters. inattention, or willful ignorance ?
↖
21:49 asciilifeform which is it
21:50 ninjashogun asciilifeform, I told you? You can consider the link totally insecure and still use it....?
21:50 asciilifeform radio carries bits from nearby wires. do i have to draw a picture, or what ?
21:50 dignork ninjashogun, you missed the point, transmission creates side-channel leak
21:50 ninjashogun asciilifeform, the way a tunnelled layer works, is it's OK to give a copy of every bit to an Evesdropper, they still can't make out the plain text.
21:51 asciilifeform not merely the wires connected to the radio, carrying payload. nearby.
21:51 ninjashogun dignork - are you saying that hte presence of WIFI will leak the CPU state?
21:51 asciilifeform am i speaking chinese? what part of this isn't clear
21:51 ninjashogun asciilifeform, are you saying that the presence of WIFI will leak the CPU?
21:51 asciilifeform yes.
21:52 mircea_popescu http://31.media.tumblr.com/e6dc76047ffec4f107c5d9e99de80c14/tumblr_ml1px0eVbl1sn68hmo1_1280.jpg
21:52 ninjashogun asciilifeform, the paper that proved that also suggested mitigation strategies...
21:52 asciilifeform there is a very simple mitigation strategy. you don't need to burgle ft. meade to learn it.
21:52 asciilifeform it's the one we use.
21:53 ninjashogun asciilifeform, OK. If you think it is impossible to prevent WIFI from broadcasting the full contents of the CPU and RAM then you would have to design around it to make my suggestion possible, which may be too difficult.
21:55 bitcoinpete mircea_popescu cool. just submitted it to smokinggun. what's hn?
21:55 ninjashogun hn is hackernews normally
21:55 mircea_popescu hos network
21:55 ninjashogun oops
21:55 mircea_popescu or hacker news
21:55 BingoBoingo bitcoinpete: sumbit it to /.
21:55 mircea_popescu one or the other
21:55 bitcoinpete noted :)
21:55 ninjashogun BingoBoingo: I hate to be the one to break it to you. I thought you heard. /. had a stroke and is in a nurinsg home :(
21:56 ninjashogun nursing
21:56 asciilifeform ninjashogun: your homework is to prove, given K bit rsa key with factors P,Q, there exists N, where N is number of bits you need to learn to factor into P,Q in polynomial time.
21:56 mircea_popescu for some reason he has a hardon for slashdot
21:56 BingoBoingo I'm old
21:57 diametric mircea_popescu: that picture is fantastic, i was literally just having a conversation about redheads with someone moments ago.
21:57 BingoBoingo https://www.mtgox.com/
21:57 ozbot MtGox.com
21:57 BingoBoingo lol
21:58 asciilifeform ninjashogun: your second homework is to play ussr national anthem using a pc, c or cpp program, and a shortwave radio.
21:58 ninjashogun asciilifeform, I've done that :)
21:58 * asciilifeform wanders off to play with pet redhead
21:58 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.60989987 BTC [+]
21:59 diametric Login to see how many imaginary coins you had
21:59 ninjashogun asciilifeform, I get your point but obviously if you can learn a single bit of a key, you can learn them all. Not one bit should be leaked, ever.
22:00 mircea_popescu diametric i love it too hehe
22:00 ninjashogun asciilifeform, anything that leaked one bit, could be repeated until you have them all. It only works if you can't learn any of them, except by brute-forcing all of them together.
22:02 mircea_popescu http://pando.com/2014/01/23/the-techtopus-how-silicon-valleys-most-celebrated-ceos-conspired-to-drive-down-100000-tech-engineers-wages/
22:02 ozbot The Techtopus: How Silicon Valley’s most celebrated CEOs conspired to drive down 100,000 tech engi
22:02 ninjashogun asciilifeform, further, as a practical matter you are not being asked to transmit a real key. You are just transmitting a stupid session key that is used to sign a single document. And if that session key is used in javascript, which is VERY far from the metal (it's a VM, running in interpreter, JS running in a C++ program, firefox, running on Windows) you would have to have insnae precision on learning exact CPU state.
22:02 mircea_popescu lmao this reminds me of the original tucker max wage fixing story.
22:02 ninjashogun asciilifeform, I don't even mena to "sign" a single document. Just to transmit it. And receive back hte signed version.
22:03 ninjashogun personally anyone who could bruteforce all that, while breaking wireless encyrption and your whole network stack, can see the damn document as far as I'm concerned. and they still wouldn't have my private key.
22:04 BingoBoingo ninjashogun: Maybe you are the wrong audience as you aren't concerned very far
22:05 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 50 @ 0.0038 = 0.19 BTC [+]
22:06 dignork ninjashogun, as simple as possible, wifi transmitter on key-storage device will leak cpu state of key-handling process, game over.
22:07 ninjashogun dignork - but above and beyond what the computer leaks anyway by itself?
22:07 ninjashogun dignork - because all computers obviously already leak some information through faint EM
22:07 dignork ninjashogun, so you keep your key off your computer, to avoid exactly that
22:08 ninjashogun dignork - if what you are saying is true than there should be a huge market for a USB wifi stick that is just 8 feet of shielded USB cable with a power conditioner on either end, so that your wifi transmission happens the fuck away from your CPU.
22:09 ninjashogun nobody is this paranoid :)
22:10 dignork ninjashogun, that's because a) people store useless trash on their systems and don't care/ b) they calculate the risks and live with it
22:10 dignork ninjashogun, c) they're idiots
22:10 ninjashogun or c) this is tinfoil hat nonsense :) :)
22:10 ninjashogun ooops
22:10 ninjashogun lol
22:10 mircea_popescu you're in a very poor position to evaluate any of these contingencies.
22:10 ninjashogun maybe
22:11 ninjashogun I tend to go from first principles.
22:11 mircea_popescu lol k
22:11 ninjashogun I guess I could radically underestimate how much CPU state a wifi transmission can carry away.
22:11 ninjashogun and what distance
22:12 ninjashogun it's just that a CPU does so much, you know? it's 2 or 4 cores at 4 ghz with megabytes of just CPU cache and then hundreds of megabytes of active ram and programs
22:12 mircea_popescu no, you could radically overestimate how much you understand of what's being discussed.
22:12 ninjashogun maybe
22:13 ninjashogun I'm trying to invest in some 2.4 ghz wireless equipment (spectrum analyzer among other things) and would be the first time I use one.
22:13 assbot [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 5200 @ 0.00015 = 0.78 BTC [-] {3}
22:13 ninjashogun I'm currently developing a wireless version of my prototype, and it is true that I am still learning it.
22:13 bitcoinpete Haven't used HN before, but here's my shot at it.
22:13 bitcoinpete https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7419574
22:13 dignork ninjashogun, let's say it's a complicated attack, and it costs 1M$, which you don't have, then you can safely assume you shouldn't care :)
22:14 assbot [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1675 @ 0.00015 = 0.2513 BTC [-] {3}
22:14 ninjashogun ok
22:15 ninjashogun anyway I'd think there's a market for in-between, people (like me) who don't care that much, but would rather not keep a key on a PC
22:15 mircea_popescu silent circle ?
22:15 ninjashogun or tablet
22:16 dignork ninjashogun, but 1M$ is overestimation, if it costs 10K$, should you care?
22:17 Duffer1 ninja but why would i buy yours over the cardano?
22:17 ThickAsThieves <bitcoinpete> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7419574 /// nothing much loads
22:18 ninjashogun Duffer1 - it' snot 'mine'. It's a feature suggestion for the cardano v2 or v3. it's still the cardano. 95% would be the same, including the basic invention that they described.
22:18 Duffer1 oh i see
22:19 ThickAsThieves i cant believe you guys are still so weak to trolling
22:19 ThickAsThieves ninjashogun ir probly furuknap or some other past annoyance
22:19 ThickAsThieves is*
22:20 mircea_popescu we're old people.
22:20 BingoBoingo ThickAsThieves: Prolly Thermos
22:20 mircea_popescu old people buy spamvertised dietary supplements and so on
22:20 ninjashogun I've introduced myself...?
22:20 ninjashogun I'm Robert, as I mentioned. I hadn't talked to you guys before.
↖
22:21 ninjashogun I stopped coming here and returned due to ughlol mentioning it. I think you guys are mostly trolling in here (which is fine).
22:21 mircea_popescu you're confused.
22:22 bitcoinpete ThickAsThieves good call. deleted that one and did a text one instead: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7419618
22:22 ninjashogun When I had been coming in here it was following an experience over a similar channel (related to doge) on a loan. As someone here (asciilifeform?) explained, I should have 'no problem' getting a loan of $20K. In fact I did have "no problem" on it, but in the end I couldn't collect it, and had come in here over a few days to see if anyone were interested in the same.
22:22 Duffer1 ah, i have indeed heard of people drowning fighting their rescuers
22:22 ThickAsThieves thats broke too pete
22:22 ninjashogun on it->with it
22:23 mircea_popescu ninjashogun anyway, you talk too much.
22:23 ninjashogun https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7419618 is showing as dead for me, bitcoinpete
22:23 mircea_popescu ideally you want a 1k to 1 read:written lines
↖
22:23 ThickAsThieves ughlol and shogun made it easy to be dismissed, they started every conversation with their hands out
22:23 blackwhite evening gents
22:23 mircea_popescu so now stfu for a few months and spend hours reading the logs.
22:23 ThickAsThieves even after being given links to educate themselves
22:24 ninjashogun ThickAsThieves, I read your links. I didn't start any more conversations though.
22:24 ThickAsThieves even after being made an example
22:24 mircea_popescu mebbe by autumn i feel like clearing my ignore list again or something.
22:25 thestringpuller ;;seen nubbins`
22:25 gribble nubbins` was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 3 hours, 10 minutes, and 25 seconds ago: <nubbins`> most people don't get that far
22:26 ThickAsThieves ;;seen pankkake
22:26 gribble pankkake was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 2 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 10 minutes, and 2 seconds ago: <pankkake> reminder http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/08/12/android_bug_batters_bitcoin_wallets/
22:27 ThickAsThieves musta got rich on ATC and quit the game...
22:27 mod6 ^^^
22:28 mircea_popescu he's now atc rich
22:28 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 5 @ 0.052 = 0.26 BTC [+]
22:28 BingoBoingo ThickAsThieves: Maybe he's eyebrow deep in pussy http://headfucking.net/headfucking.mpg
22:29 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.0521 = 0.1563 BTC [+]
22:29 cazalla BingoBongo: looks like heisenberg
22:30 Duffer1 oh lawd
22:30 BingoBoingo cazalla: It is from his site
22:31 mircea_popescu "Two U.S. Air Force commanders in the 422nd Air Base Group at RAF Croughton have been relieved over a loss of confidence in their abilities."
22:31 mircea_popescu one wonders what that'd be.
22:32 ThickAsThieves they were better at receiving head than giving it
22:33 mircea_popescu may have something to do with all the drones the us lost in the ukraine.
22:33 ThickAsThieves do you think a scientist stating evolution is a fact is arrogant?
22:33 mircea_popescu turns out they are kinda useless in actual military operations.
22:38 ninjashogun BingoBoingo, that is hilarious
22:38 ninjashogun see you guys later. I'm going off to bed.
22:38 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.0038 = 0.38 BTC [+]
22:38 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: The problem with drones is it is way to tempting to stick them in places where they don't belong.
22:39 mircea_popescu i guess people in the us are so starstruck with "technology" they forget they're just little radio planes.
22:39 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.6098974 = 1.2198 BTC [-] {2}
22:41 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: they can sack them, they can shoot them, a kid with $100 of kit can still take the next toy plane home.
22:42 mircea_popescu kinda the problem, yes.
22:42 asciilifeform i haven't the link, unfortunately, but the story goes:
22:42 mircea_popescu the sackings will continue until the dollar improves
22:42 asciilifeform that these buggers were originally supposed to use the rsa-signed gps
22:42 mircea_popescu btw, what happened ot your sleep
22:42 asciilifeform what sleep.
22:43 mircea_popescu it's like sex but without moving.
22:43 asciilifeform the $ that was supposed to buy the golden toilets (signed gps rx-ers) walked away.
22:43 asciilifeform then they fitted consumer gps rx.
22:43 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 28 @ 0.05265349 = 1.4743 BTC [+] {4}
22:43 mircea_popescu yeah.
22:44 asciilifeform and, until recently, 'predator' video backhaul was... plaintext.
22:44 dignork asciilifeform, do you mean the story with fake gps transmitters, which diverted drone?
22:44 asciilifeform for a similar reason.
22:44 asciilifeform dignork: it.
22:44 asciilifeform there are now several such stories.
22:44 asciilifeform probably more than i personally know of.
22:45 mircea_popescu the word around the backchannels is that the usaf gets back about 2/3 of the drones it sends out
22:45 asciilifeform (i'm not a model plane driver for a living, i only know the ones that every idiot knows now.)
22:45 mircea_popescu and if this keeps up for another 3-4 years the rest of the world will own more drones than the usg.
22:46 dignork asciilifeform, i loled about this story with my friend who builds them for non-US army, and she said that it won't work with their drones, cz they'll fallback into gps-less mode, once there will be delta between compass/altimeter and gps readings
22:47 asciilifeform in the '80s, there was quite a bit of $ spent on navigation using optical terrain tracking.
22:47 asciilifeform no idea if this survived herr reagan or not.
22:47 asciilifeform judging by the use of 'gps' in 'predator', my guess is 'not.'
22:48 mircea_popescu yeah contour nav is still used.
22:48 mircea_popescu but on large icmb type of things. tehy've not really fittedf it to the 10lb shits yet
22:48 dignork asciilifeform, US considers shutting off gps in some cases, so pbbly their drones can work gps-less too.
22:49 asciilifeform dignork: this requires fitting receivers for the u.s. proprietary (crypted) gps to all hardware
22:49 asciilifeform as it is, they famously lack enough even to supply infantry
22:49 asciilifeform because they're $10k each.
22:49 asciilifeform (why? ask the folks who make them, not me)
22:49 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 277 @ 0.00380202 = 1.0532 BTC [+] {3}
22:49 mircea_popescu and they still suck.
22:49 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: one could probably get within 1% of 'gps' by using camera and images mooched from a crawl of 'google earth'
22:50 asciilifeform at least over land.
22:50 mircea_popescu a lot of their spec is edge cases tho.
22:50 mircea_popescu "you need to hit whether there's been a fire or not"
22:50 asciilifeform you only need terrain tracking, etc. to correct for accumulated error in inertial (gyro) nav
22:50 mircea_popescu many countless ways to throw camnav for a loop, including lulzy things like silly strings
22:50 asciilifeform the latter can be had for $5 (it's in every ipnohe etc)
22:51 asciilifeform 3-axis 'mems' gyro
22:51 mircea_popescu nav-ready gyro is expensive.
22:51 asciilifeform one that can be used alone ('Brandy Snifter gyro' or mechanical) is costly
22:52 mircea_popescu mech is still the golden standard.
22:52 asciilifeform solid-state (dollar store 3-axis chip) is adequate if you can occasionally correct.
22:52 mircea_popescu i'/d suggest you try this theory out, but instead just lie down D:
22:52 asciilifeform other thing
22:52 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 220 @ 0.00381 = 0.8382 BTC [+]
22:52 asciilifeform you don't need elaborate navigation if your target helpfully shouts radio
22:52 asciilifeform that you can then triangulate.
22:53 asciilifeform (phased array using squadron flying in a triangle 1km on each side, say)
22:54 * asciilifeform goes back to play with pet
22:54 dignork asciilifeform, i tried 3-axis chip, it had a huge margin of error on a toy q-copter :(
23:03 mircea_popescu http://pando.com/2014/03/17/warren-buffett-says-he-wants-to-pay-more-tax-then-structures-a-deal-to-ensure-he-does-the-exact-opposite/
23:03 ozbot Warren Buffett says he wants to pay more tax (then structures a deal to ensure he does the exact opp
23:04 BingoBoingo WHat's that thing you say "If you can, you must"
23:05 mircea_popescu something like that.
23:05 mircea_popescu decent write-up on the topic tho
23:05 mircea_popescu this pando stuff is like a breath of fresh air, it almost reads like press from before digital ruined it all.
23:13 mircea_popescu "OP, I know cryptostocks makes it seem as though starting your very own security is a sort of past time accessible to anyone who'd like to try, sort of like adopting a pet fish. This has nothing to do with bitcoin securities in fact and everything to do with play-pretend exchanges exploiting those who'd like to try but aren't ready for one reason or another."
23:13 mircea_popescu i gotta hire this woman.
23:14 Duffer1 is she not already on payroll?
23:14 mircea_popescu o hey.
23:14 mircea_popescu time machine ftw.
23:15 Duffer1 oh ^.^
23:15 mircea_popescu lol
23:16 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06894978 = 0.1379 BTC [-]
23:17 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.00382 = 0.382 BTC [+]
23:23 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46814 @ 0.00089084 = 41.7038 BTC [+] {2}
23:30 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.06894986 = 0.1379 BTC [+]
23:33 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 50 @ 0.0059705 = 0.2985 BTC [-] {3}
23:42 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30497 @ 0.00089043 = 27.1554 BTC [-]
23:43 benderp so i dunno what happened but i pooped out a 3kword monster
23:43 benderp it's kinda rough as these airplane pieces can be
23:44 benderp uhh wide ranging too
23:44 benderp http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2014/03/17_the-sec-doth-breach-itself-upon-the-rocks-of-mpex-and-popescu-himself.html
23:44 ozbot The SEC doth breach itself upon the rocks of MPEx, and Popescu himself
23:45 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 87 @ 0.003849 = 0.3349 BTC [+]
23:48 assbot [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 173 @ 0.00385 = 0.6661 BTC [+]
23:52 mircea_popescu how was your flight
23:52 mircea_popescu meanwhile back at the ranch, bitbet invented a whole new kind of hell.
23:52 mircea_popescu http://bitbet.us/bet/786/bitcoin-to-surpass-berkshire-as-an-investment/#b94
23:52 ozbot BitBet - Bitcoin to surpass Berkshire as an investment
23:53 mircea_popescu and bc.info is still down.
23:59 bitcoinpete benderp: fantastic article. quite enjoyed "engaging in nefarious activity to palp the testicular fortitude of the people who matter and actually set policy in Bitcoin"
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