Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2018-09-26 | 2018-09-28 → ↓
05:31 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854882 -> got your .tar.gz but I could not find in it the .wot and .seals? at any rate, if I copied over the .wot and .seals dirs, it pressed perfectly fine with v here (9999 K version); ftr I ran also precisely the v.pl you have in there and it also worked!
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05:31 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 01:34 asciilifeform: http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/v_noworky.tar.gz << the complete tarball with both variants, patches, seals, .wot, my attempt thus far.
05:32 diana_coman re using vtools, I currently first check sig (so by hand, separate 1-line) and if ok, then feed patch to vtools
05:33 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854921 -> oh hey, looking forward to it!
05:33 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 02:27 esthlos: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854912 << I plan to integrate Keccak into the thing this weekend. At that point it should be fully operational.
05:34 diana_coman http://barksinthewind.com/2018/vtools-keccak-regrind/ -> gotta ask here, phf, am I missing something or what Wednesday was that there in the first line meant to be?
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05:37 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854924 << quite.
05:37 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 02:28 trinque: obviously I want such a vtron for the cuntoo final cut, or what's the use of the build process producing a vpatch
05:40 mircea_popescu asciilifeform phf's thing presses fine, since at least june ( http://thewhet.net/2018/06/mp-wp-genesis-regrind/ )
05:41 mircea_popescu did you follow diana_coman 's http://barksinthewind.com/2018/vtools-keccak-regrind/#comment-27 ?
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~ 30 minutes ~
06:12 diana_coman adding to the above: old v can still be used to check the sigs, to avoid manual check; so use old v to check the sigs and once satisfied, just feed patches to vpatch
~ 2 hours 35 minutes ~
08:47 diana_coman since I need to get the work done on this, I reground the UDP lib and I'll proceed from there; asciilifeform, phf and anyone else interested, keccak-patches are on my Code Shelf as usual: http://ossasepia.com/reference-code-shelf/#selection-477.0-477.19
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08:49 diana_coman I'll add the patches for the tester on top of the above, later today
~ 35 minutes ~
09:25 * asciilifeform eats log
09:26 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854880 , http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854913 << interestingly, this worked, mod6 ! wtf is 99994 K one ? where did i even get it ? ( i take it , was buggy release ? )
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09:26 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 01:33 mod6: http://thebitcoin.foundation/v/V-20180222.tar.gz << >> http://thebitcoin.foundation/v/V-20180222.tar.gz.mod6.sig
09:26 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 02:06 mod6: asciilifeform: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/EItV0/?raw=true
09:27 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854926 << confirmed ( and somehow nobody last night noticed ? ) apparently tar by default refuses to tar up 'hidden' ( i.e. starts with . ) dirs !
09:27 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 09:31 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854882 -> got your .tar.gz but I could not find in it the .wot and .seals? at any rate, if I copied over the .wot and .seals dirs, it pressed perfectly fine with v here (9999 K version); ftr I ran also precisely the v.pl you have in there and it also worked!
09:30 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854926 << ~this~ is pretty strange; diana_coman wouldja mind sharing your working set there ?
09:30 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 09:31 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854882 -> got your .tar.gz but I could not find in it the .wot and .seals? at any rate, if I copied over the .wot and .seals dirs, it pressed perfectly fine with v here (9999 K version); ftr I ran also precisely the v.pl you have in there and it also worked!
09:30 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854935 << i did, phf reminded earlier
09:30 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 09:41 mircea_popescu: did you follow diana_coman 's http://barksinthewind.com/2018/vtools-keccak-regrind/#comment-27 ?
09:32 asciilifeform aaaand built
09:33 asciilifeform and apparently this is not a full vtron, but only replaces 'diff' and 'patch' ....
09:34 asciilifeform diana_coman: do you normally use this with a hand-patched mod6 vtron ? or how ?
09:35 asciilifeform call me an idjit, but i thought there were a new vtron...
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09:37 asciilifeform aaand it loox like diana_coman already did my chore for me... i'ma do the elementary test on it nao, and sign/mirror.
09:37 asciilifeform ty diana_coman .
09:40 asciilifeform and loox like diana_coman even added comments.
09:50 diana_coman asciilifeform, np; re vtron yes, currently it is only vdiff and vpatch functionality; I use old v to see the flow (since it checks the seals but doesn't care about the hashes until press time) and then the vpatch to actually press; looking forward to esthlos' vtron
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09:51 diana_coman I added the manifest + comments in it; otherwise *all* code is precisely what I got from pressing your patches
09:51 asciilifeform confirmed
09:58 asciilifeform about to post
10:05 asciilifeform diana_coman: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2557 updated, with mirror and seals (yours, mine)
10:07 diana_coman asciilifeform, ok, I'll mirror your sigs too and link to the page anyway; a bit later today
10:08 asciilifeform danke schon, diana_coman . feel free to rename the filez.
10:08 diana_coman I'll have to, since the sigs need to fit the .vpatch file name, yes
10:08 asciilifeform aha
10:09 diana_coman fwiw I *did* specifically state in the manifest that it's using Keccak hashes
10:09 asciilifeform right
10:09 * asciilifeform read whole thing
10:10 asciilifeform diana_coman: is there a version of mod6's vtron that uses the new vdiff / vpatch ? or what do you use in erryday work ?
10:11 diana_coman asciilifeform, not that I know of; I use: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854956
10:11 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 13:50 diana_coman: asciilifeform, np; re vtron yes, currently it is only vdiff and vpatch functionality; I use old v to see the flow (since it checks the seals but doesn't care about the hashes until press time) and then the vpatch to actually press; looking forward to esthlos' vtron
10:12 asciilifeform ugh suspected
10:12 asciilifeform so as i understand nobody has a 100% complete newtype vtron quite yet
10:12 asciilifeform this is what i thought, and why i did not hurry to start the regrindings earlier
10:13 asciilifeform i'ma try esthlos's item as soon as it is rolled out.
10:14 diana_coman I kept waiting on phf and esthlos since they were working on it as far as I could tell; and http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854921
10:14 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 02:27 esthlos: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854912 << I plan to integrate Keccak into the thing this weekend. At that point it should be fully operational.
10:15 asciilifeform got it
10:20 asciilifeform if phf's item came with a standalone keccak hasher , would then be quite simple to retool e.g. mod6's vtron, to follow the new format. but as it is loox like i'ma have to wait for esthlos , to get full working replacement for old vtrons
10:29 asciilifeform ( given http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-26#1854819 + http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-26#1854820 , i'd really like to have a 100% working item prior to entirely retiring the old )
10:29 a111 Logged on 2018-09-26 22:00 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: prolly like most folx who actually work on proggies, asciilifeform has '9000' vtrees on various disk, on various boxen, that are in classical format, and many not even intended for publication, the ones that see daylight naturally will become newtype
10:29 a111 Logged on 2018-09-26 22:01 asciilifeform: unlike some folx (as late as '16 some confessed to git ) asciilifeform does not use heathen versiontrons internally, strictly 100% v from aug '15
10:32 * asciilifeform bbl : teatime.
10:38 mod6 http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854940 << The changes and reasons for, are discribed here: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-February/000290.html
10:38 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 13:26 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854880 , http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854913 << interestingly, this worked, mod6 ! wtf is 99994 K one ? where did i even get it ? ( i take it , was buggy release ? )
~ 33 minutes ~
11:11 asciilifeform mod6: that there's '99993 K' . but what was '99994 K' ??
11:12 asciilifeform mod6: the latter was the one i turned out to have on my box last night
11:12 asciilifeform oh ha i see what i did.
11:12 asciilifeform ( fughot that they decrement ! )
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11:13 asciilifeform mod6: puzzler -- solved, asciilifeform -- thick.
~ 20 minutes ~
11:33 phf asciilifeform: this has been extensively discussed in the logs. there was never a need for "new style v". v works just fine. one of the design goals of vtools was to nail down (and improve upon) the patch format. vtools are explicitly designed to be used with an existing v (for example i use it with v.py). vdiff produces wellformed vpatches and vpatch presses them ensuring that the format is valid and that the hashes stand. there's no
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11:33 phf need for the separate keccak hashing tool, because vpatch ensures that the result is valid.
11:33 lobbesbot phf: Sent 14 hours and 10 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> are http://barksinthewind.com/2018/vtools-keccak-regrind/ old-style or new-style vpatches ?? my vtron won't press'em, and there is no way to distinguish , nor anything in the post to indicate, unless i'm thick
11:33 lobbesbot phf: Sent 14 hours and 6 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> nm, distinguished by hand... but my vtron doesn't verify the sigs (not immediately sure why) and mod6's -- sees only Leaf: vtools_vpatch_newline.vpatch (phf)
11:36 phf asciilifeform: but if you want a full "v replacement and i don't want to think about none of that" then just use esthlos's item. i believe he has a working keccak already
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11:37 asciilifeform phf: try an' see from my pov : i get a 'goddamn stop using old v' , go an' uncrate the replacement, and turns out it ain't a plug-in replacement but a set of pieces and a roll of duct tape
11:39 asciilifeform and yes it is the picture i got from log. the gap in my head is where diana_coman switched to the new format; i then assumed there is a 100%-complete new vtron, and that 'hmm simply missed this, is in log somewhere' , turns out nope, notyet
11:39 asciilifeform apparently diana_coman has been hand-cranking it, sorta like asciilifeform's 1st yr of trb pre-vtron
11:40 asciilifeform ( recall, i introduced the patches thing considerably prior to ~vtronic~ patches )
11:40 asciilifeform possibly this is not 100% fair picture , http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854956 is only half-handcranked, but still, semi-automatic
11:40 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 13:50 diana_coman: asciilifeform, np; re vtron yes, currently it is only vdiff and vpatch functionality; I use old v to see the flow (since it checks the seals but doesn't care about the hashes until press time) and then the vpatch to actually press; looking forward to esthlos' vtron
11:43 asciilifeform phf: this is not a criticism of the format. but turns out asciilifeform has been looking for a 'i missed it in logz?' piece that doesn't exist quite yet ( hopefully will in 3 days... )
11:45 asciilifeform once it ~does~ exist, and fully displaces the duct tape, then yes i'ma start regrinding other things , and i expect then mod6 -- trb, etc
11:46 asciilifeform afaik nobody's used esthlos's item in battlefield yet, it'll need good bit of test.
11:50 asciilifeform i'd also like to see a continuing existence of multiple working vtrons, so eventually would like to rework mod6's to use newtype format ( unless mod6 would prefer to do it himself )
11:50 phf asciilifeform: you're just spreading fud, i don't know where to start unpacking this conversation
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11:50 asciilifeform my ancient v100 , could also be reworked, but i'd like to put it to rest ( for one thing, it dun check hashes at all )
11:51 asciilifeform phf: there is not currently a complete replacement for mod6 v.pl ! fact !
11:51 asciilifeform where is the 'fud' ??
11:51 phf asciilifeform: vtools is not a replacement for v.pl!
11:51 asciilifeform dun seem like we disagree then ?
11:51 phf ugh
11:52 asciilifeform this thread is not meant to insult phf et al , but i open box where i thought was hammer, but there is only a hammer head
11:52 asciilifeform now i'ma need the shaft.
11:52 phf asciilifeform: you already have the shaft, it's v.py
11:53 asciilifeform phf: loox like. i'ma put the head on the shaft in next coupla days .
11:54 phf when i started working on vtools there was already a handful of battle tested V implementations, that relied on vdiff.sh/gnu patch combination. vtools is a "drop in" replacement for the later. you get valid vpatch on the input, valid press on the output. the purpose is to nail down the format, and gradually replace out its parts (e.g. transparent sha->keccak transition)
11:55 mod6 I had started on a ada vtron last year, but I got hung up with some of the string handling, and the fact that I had to use shell-outs for pgp. I'd like to get back to it at some point. I would love to dispense with the shell outs - and can probably do so, but not until 'peh' is finished.
11:55 asciilifeform phf: makes sense. my frustration is from walking the logs for past 2 days and looking for who has the complete shaft+head hammer, and not finding
11:55 mod6 The string handling, discussed previously in the logs, is basically a solved problem - would just need something similar to what alf or others have done before - character by character.
11:55 asciilifeform mod6: for nao i'll be entirely satisfied with the variant phf describes.
11:55 mod6 Anyway, lack of time is a problem here too.
11:56 mod6 asciilifeform: ok cool.
11:57 phf i think v.pl is a venerable tool, it's battle tested, it has established interface, it's been worked on for three years now. i don't see any reason to throw it out.
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11:58 asciilifeform phf: right . what i was looking for is variant of same that calls out to keccak instead of sha512 ( mod6's latest vtron actually checks hashes ) . but apparently still needs baking.
11:58 phf i guess it's presumptuous on my part to think that it's exactly obvious how to take vtools and plug it directly into an existing v's, but that's all that's needed
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11:58 asciilifeform phf: i don't dispute that it is obvious, but thought it had been done, this was my mistake.
11:58 phf asciilifeform: ah
11:59 phf asciilifeform: well, you're one of the v maintainers, i'd think you would want to do it to your own tool.
12:00 asciilifeform phf: my orig vtron has been sad and unmaintained, and afaik unused by anybody by me, for long time
12:00 asciilifeform phf: but yes i'ma revive it.
12:01 phf re standalone keccak hasher: i'm not sure that it's needed, i think the relevant phase can just be dispensed with altogether. `vpatch' verifies the hashes as it goes along
12:01 asciilifeform phf: ah huh
12:01 asciilifeform then not direly needed. though i'd still like to be able to post keccak hash in the log next time we're doing a thread with fw images or the like.
12:02 phf you can basically do (cat foo.vpatch bar.vpatch qux.vpatch) | vpatch and expect the resulting press to be fully valid, hashes and all
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12:02 asciilifeform ( i.e. i'd like to dispense with sha512sum util entirely , aside from existing ancient items which have sha512 hashes in the l0gz from years ago )
12:02 asciilifeform phf: makes sense.
12:05 * phf brb
12:05 * asciilifeform satisfied with the explanation
12:07 asciilifeform btw phf , if you're willing to post your modified v.py ( i.e. http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854990 ) i'ma sign
12:07 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 15:33 phf: asciilifeform: this has been extensively discussed in the logs. there was never a need for "new style v". v works just fine. one of the design goals of vtools was to nail down (and improve upon) the patch format. vtools are explicitly designed to be used with an existing v (for example i use it with v.py). vdiff produces wellformed vpatches and vpatch presses them ensuring that the format is valid and that the hashes stand. there's no
12:08 asciilifeform imho the situation where 'errybody made own hack' but no one posted 'because obvious' is a barbarism, really ought to have a civilized 'here is the whole thing' sitting on www somewhere.
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~ 23 minutes ~
12:31 trinque phf: did the problem which caused folks to have to delete one branch of your vpatch tree to press the other get fixed in v.pl?
12:32 trinque oh, modified. /me sips moar coffee
12:32 trinque trinquebrain clearly not handling the swaps between v.pl and v.py in thread just yet
~ 20 minutes ~
12:53 asciilifeform trinque: which vtron are you thinking of including in cuntoo beta ?
12:56 trinque v-esthos if it's finished, and works, though I'm willing to hear counterarguments
12:56 trinque afaik it's the most didactic of the items
12:57 asciilifeform makes sense
12:57 trinque however it'll need a vdiff too, so was going to pull in also phf's work
12:57 asciilifeform prolly will also makes sense to standardize the calling for it eventually ( and i'ma rework mine to fit, etc )
12:58 asciilifeform ( right now there's a linux-like situation where errybody has own flags etc )
13:09 phf trinque: it hasn't been, and i'm doing omission by not mentioning that vtools had a later mandate for graph resolution. meanwhile esthlos v was supposed to supposed to fix the issue, i suspect that different v's will eventually catch up.
~ 17 minutes ~
13:27 phf trinque: vtools has not been design or intended to compete with any particular v implementation. it's a set of tools that you can use in a v workflow (hence the name). at least initially it was two matching tools vdiff and vpatch that know how to produce and consume a canonical vpatch. the conflation came up, because i also published vtools in a form that broke existing canonical v, v.pl, and was tasked with fixing the situation.
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13:29 asciilifeform phf: i finally sat down and properly read the thing, and i think i finally grasp.
13:38 phf re esthlos's work i think it's a shame that he chose to reimplement own keccak, but is still calling out to gnu patch. he could just focus on graph resolution/signature/wot checking, and offload the validation on vpatch: construct the press list, feed the patches in-order to vpatch, if vpatch succeeds then you know _for certain_ that the sequence of patches is valid, hashes and all
13:40 mod6 yeah, this is the right approach imho. it's what i'd do with my ada-vtron, if it ever does breathe.
13:46 trinque phf: in principle I'm entirely in favor of the "unix philosophy" approach of simple, single-purpose tools
13:49 asciilifeform esthlos's thing calls to gnupatch ?! ugh
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13:49 asciilifeform i did not yet know this.
13:54 asciilifeform phf: imho your approach , i.e. dispensing with gnupatch, is The Right Thing, historically there was quite a bit of grief from gnupatch's habit of eagerly attempting to apply an invalid (by vtronic lights) but 'partially ok' by barbarian lights patch
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14:01 trinque the "hunk succeeded at offset $hurrr" thing is abominable
14:01 trinque tonail-eater tier mental rigor.
14:01 asciilifeform trinque: recall when i thought that this nonsense could be disabled by flags, hah
14:10 phf right vpatch applies 'diff -ruN' style patches exactly. it also keeps track of both the hash of the patched file and the hash of the result state as it's reading/patching (there's no double read happening), and errors out if either fails to match the hashes in the header
14:12 asciilifeform phf: exactly right algo
14:21 phf asciilifeform: i have a ksum PoC for you, http://btcbase.org/patches/vtools_ksum signed but it's from workbench, potentially buggy. "ksum foo bar qux" gives you shasum style <hash> foo\n<hash> bar\n<hash> qux\n
14:21 asciilifeform oh neato
14:21 asciilifeform i'ma test.
14:22 deedbot http://bimbo.club/?p=31 << Bimbo.Club - TMSR Log Summary - 9/22/2018
~ 54 minutes ~
15:17 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: I have returned from the envirorast office, about to fire off a message to DHL informing them to try again as I am a provisionally acredited importer of packaged goods for commercial use
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15:18 mod6 *thumbsup*
15:24 BingoBoingo Now for everything else on the docket
~ 25 minutes ~
15:50 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854937 << that was fast!
15:50 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 12:47 diana_coman: since I need to get the work done on this, I reground the UDP lib and I'll proceed from there; asciilifeform, phf and anyone else interested, keccak-patches are on my Code Shelf as usual: http://ossasepia.com/reference-code-shelf/#selection-477.0-477.19
15:52 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854952 << what you apparently did was completely ignore the matter for five months, then discover like children that you actually need tools at the time you started on the task (late at night etc) and so forth.
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15:52 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 13:35 asciilifeform: call me an idjit, but i thought there were a new vtron...
15:52 mircea_popescu keep your tools in state of good repair, you won't have to start fixing fence by fixing hammer and nails.
15:52 mircea_popescu in any case shit in the logs ain't gonna to "just go away", this isn't linuslands. ignoring it is like ignoring hot coals.
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15:58 deedbot http://trilema.com/2018/fetlife-the-next-derperation/ << Trilema - Fetlife -- The Next Derperation
16:00 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854988 << we came up with this clever thing sometime in 2015 or so iirc. not sure what is gained by doing 99995 --> 99994 etc in light of experience, but i clearly recall how cool it looked at the time.
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16:00 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 15:12 asciilifeform: ( fughot that they decrement ! )
~ 18 minutes ~
16:18 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855080 << i stole the notion , in slightly modified form, from knuth. the logic is, decrementing versions, with finite initial N, support a http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851362 flow , where 'if you fucked it N+1 times , nao forced to call proggy something else' -- specifically in opposition to the heathen plague of runaway ver nums (e.g. linux kernel, emacs, firefox, etc)
16:18 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 20:00 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854988 << we came up with this clever thing sometime in 2015 or so iirc. not sure what is gained by doing 99995 --> 99994 etc in light of experience, but i clearly recall how cool it looked at the time.
16:18 a111 Logged on 2018-09-18 18:22 asciilifeform: this is the other thing, 'changes are expensive' promote imho a sane view of software, where you actually try to perma-stabilize yer proggy, rather than to keep up the classic 'open sores' eternal cauldron of bubbling liquishit
16:19 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855075 << yea if i'd smoke-tested it earlier, would have found. on top of this, naively assumed that diana_coman has a working and complete keccaktronic v , given as she's moved smg to newform
16:19 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 19:52 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854952 << what you apparently did was completely ignore the matter for five months, then discover like children that you actually need tools at the time you started on the task (late at night etc) and so forth.
16:19 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855070 << neato BingoBoingo . plz lemme know asap if you need anyffing from my end
16:19 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 19:17 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I have returned from the envirorast office, about to fire off a message to DHL informing them to try again as I am a provisionally acredited importer of packaged goods for commercial use
16:21 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855078 << trickier item. recall 'the song of the sirens, some have escaped, but their silence -- no one' . how to deal with 'but ~was~ it in the l0gz'.
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16:21 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 19:52 mircea_popescu: in any case shit in the logs ain't gonna to "just go away", this isn't linuslands. ignoring it is like ignoring hot coals.
16:22 asciilifeform ( asciilifeform plowed through the phf-vtronics thread when came back from voyage, and then second time when diana_coman requested keccak regrind, and both times failed to converge to correct answ re 'is there complete keccak vtron' )
16:27 asciilifeform elsewhere, else, http://trilema.com/2018/fetlife-the-next-derperation/#comment-126772
16:34 deedbot http://ossasepia.com/2018/09/27/tester-for-udp-communications/ << Ossasepia - Tester for UDP Communications
16:34 asciilifeform oh hey.
16:35 diana_coman asciilifeform, ^ there is also a small .vpatch for that issue with null chars at ip
16:36 asciilifeform neato!
16:36 diana_coman the rest then are for the tester only - let me know if you give it a spin and how it behaves
16:36 asciilifeform diana_coman: i'ma test & mirror that one when i get a chance
16:36 asciilifeform will do.
16:37 diana_coman but otherwise the udp_tester.vpatch makes some changes to udp lib that are really just for testing (i.e. I think they should not be part of production use of udp lib)
16:37 asciilifeform yea i can't picture for what might need variable masses in production
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16:37 asciilifeform so makes sense
16:38 diana_coman it's the move to generic + relaxation of some constraints (because of generic and because of using Calendar for local time to log)
16:45 deedbot http://qntra.net/2018/09/power-rangers-inserted-inflation-bug-into-core-bitcoin-network-client-in-2016/ << Qntra - Power Rangers Inserted Inflation Bug Into "Core" Bitcoin Network Client in 2016
↖
16:46 mircea_popescu asciilifeform no, i understand the principle, just... nothing, not even mozilla went through 10k versions to date.
16:57 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: yea, 10k is imho much. but e.g. asciilifeform gave himself 100 in orig v
16:58 mircea_popescu more's the point : HOW do we establush "100is much, 10k is enough, etc"
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17:02 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855089 << i have no fucking idea how. i read the logs daily atm, mostly impelled by... outright fear. the best heuristic i know of, but otherwise this promises to be a first caliber bane as time goes by.
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17:02 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 20:21 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855078 << trickier item. recall 'the song of the sirens, some have escaped, but their silence -- no one' . how to deal with 'but ~was~ it in the l0gz'.
17:05 mircea_popescu !!rate bluematt -10 finally comes home to roost
17:05 deedbot Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/O1xwh/?raw=true
17:06 mircea_popescu ^the end of the last holdout of historical derps
17:06 mircea_popescu and /me shall bbl
~ 16 minutes ~
17:23 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855104 >> bahahaha, and the disinfo machine already spinning at full speed, e.g. 'Everything older than 0.16.3 (and the corresponding 0.14 and 0.15 fix releases) is vulnerable to one exploit or another' etc
17:23 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 20:45 deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/09/power-rangers-inserted-inflation-bug-into-core-bitcoin-network-client-in-2016/ << Qntra - Power Rangers Inserted Inflation Bug Into "Core" Bitcoin Network Client in 2016
17:23 asciilifeform ( pretty thinly disguised attempt to get the dumber miners to 'upgrade' )
17:24 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855107 << the proggy author's duty, and nobody can save him from it. fwiw i go roughly by size/complexity of orig draft.
17:24 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 20:58 mircea_popescu: more's the point : HOW do we establush "100is much, 10k is enough, etc"
17:25 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855108 << i read'em when waking, when going to sleep, and in between have scrolling in real time within peripheral vision. but evidently even this not guaranteed to suffice..
17:25 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 21:02 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855089 << i have no fucking idea how. i read the logs daily atm, mostly impelled by... outright fear. the best heuristic i know of, but otherwise this promises to be a first caliber bane as time goes by.
~ 30 minutes ~
17:55 deedbot http://bingology.net/2018/09/27/peso-watch-september-2018-edition-with-bonus-uru-gay/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - Peso Watch September 2018 Edition With Bonus URU-Gay
~ 1 hours 2 minutes ~
18:58 BingoBoingo For the longs: Peso Argentino went from 0.85/1.45 to 0.55/1.25 in one month.
~ 52 minutes ~
19:50 asciilifeform diana_coman: built & emplaced your sender-receiver, it is running nao, asciilifeformistan <--> BingoBoingostan
19:51 asciilifeform will leave it overnight , then post log..
19:53 asciilifeform interestingly, 1st coupla min seems to show ~0 loss
19:56 * asciilifeform discussed subj with asciilifeform's brother, who answered 'whaddayamean, what size packet, at $defunctgamesco we only ever used 1480, for decade, ideal'
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19:56 asciilifeform admittedly this was in the paleolithic '90s
19:57 asciilifeform i can see the logic, ethernet frame is 1500 , ip header -- 20 byte
19:58 asciilifeform tho as i understand it, they did not account for the 8 byte udp header size, and thereby still fragged.
19:59 asciilifeform going by the current empirical test, however, a packet that frags into 2 or even 3, typically goes. tho it remains to be seen whether they start falling down once you saturate.
20:01 asciilifeform diana_coman's test jig ( i did not modify it except for the dest ip ) currently fires 1 / sec.
20:05 mod6 evenin'
20:06 * mod6 looks
20:20 mod6 nice work diana_coman
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20:24 asciilifeform oh hm it stops after a while
20:24 mod6 stopped or died?
20:25 mircea_popescu asciilifeform that's deliberate, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-25#1854306
20:25 a111 Logged on 2018-09-25 15:58 mircea_popescu: add a 1s delay between packets.
20:26 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854994 << just about, yes. and yeah, the summary's correct.
20:26 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 15:36 phf: asciilifeform: but if you want a full "v replacement and i don't want to think about none of that" then just use esthlos's item. i believe he has a working keccak already
20:35 asciilifeform 'Note that the sender will send each size of package *only once* and it will simply finish once it sent one package of each size' << aaah
20:36 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855005 << certainlt. it's already unpacked, as far as that can be done, at http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855075
20:36 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 15:50 phf: asciilifeform: you're just spreading fud, i don't know where to start unpacking this conversation
20:36 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 19:52 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854952 << what you apparently did was completely ignore the matter for five months, then discover like children that you actually need tools at the time you started on the task (late at night etc) and so forth.
20:36 mircea_popescu sadly there's no simple/just-add-water way out of "i've been ignoring this whole thing for x interval, wut nao". nao -- pick up from where you left off, what.
20:38 mircea_popescu summaries only go so far, and besides, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851685
20:38 a111 Logged on 2018-09-19 15:56 asciilifeform: mod6: i dun like to discourage folx, esp. mircea_popescu's pupil, who is evidently pouring sweat into the job. but i expected the items would get better with time, and imho so far they haven't
20:39 asciilifeform mircea_popescu, diana_coman : http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/usa_sender_udp_log.txt http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/uy_receiver_udp_log.txt << 1 full volley
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20:40 mircea_popescu but yes, the obnoxious part about the ignorant approach is that it purports to "identify as problems" the speciffic parts that are both well designed and functioning as designed, ie specifically the hash transition.
20:40 mircea_popescu that alf manages to do this naturally and with i suspect no malice aforethought (or anything else aforethought at all) is in a sense supportive of the hopes of humanity -- apparently ignorance breeds the nonsense on its own, no "dark lizard" behind it all needed.
20:41 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: seems like 100% passed...
20:41 asciilifeform packets, i mean
20:44 mircea_popescu anyway. what v did you end up with ?
20:45 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: just nao -- muscle-powered v a la diana_coman . this weekend would like to reword v.py to run on phf's components.
20:45 mircea_popescu alright.
20:45 asciilifeform and when esthlos releases, will try his.
20:45 mircea_popescu you realise, i'm not going to go "here -- use THIS .emacs". not in this life.
20:46 mircea_popescu yes there's nothing wrong with people publishing toolsets ; but this can't become a fucking expectations wth. craftsman -- has toolset.
20:46 asciilifeform i dun recall asking for 'use THIS .emacs' lol
20:46 mircea_popescu standardized tools -- for mcdo cashiers. actual craftsman, responsible for his toolset, which nobody inspects for him but himself.
20:47 asciilifeform but ftr i released complete kit with orig v, not half thing.
20:47 mircea_popescu as things grow, upgrades by parts become a matter of necessity.
20:47 mircea_popescu restaurant served me complete pie, but body shop did only paint the preexisting car i supplied them with.
20:48 asciilifeform btw mircea_popescu & diana_coman , not only 0 packet losses, but 0 reorders.
20:48 mircea_popescu you're doing wash to uy and back ?
20:49 asciilifeform i.e. : cat uy_receiver_udp_log.txt | cut -f 1 -d ',' > receiver_idx.txt ; cat usa_sender_udp_log.txt | cut -f 1 -d ',' > sender_idx.txt ; diff sender_idx.txt receiver_idx.txt << produces nil
20:49 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: so far only tried the -->
20:49 mircea_popescu nb. let it run for a few weeks if you will, so we have nice datasets to work on
20:50 mircea_popescu and bidirectional is good imo, i half expect to discover parity between lastmile->dc and dc->lastmile directions.
20:50 asciilifeform ( potentially also could be interesting to make echo variant )
20:50 asciilifeform i.e. ->, <-, ->, ...
20:51 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: no disagreement re upgrades of parts
20:52 mircea_popescu so then. phf did a new ~vdiff~. and a very good one at that, from all i can see.
20:52 asciilifeform worx a++
20:53 asciilifeform upstack, re the udp experiment -- 1/sec is sorta 'cheating', no possibility of reorders
20:53 asciilifeform ( afaik 1sec is way moar than long enuff for a packet to either make it, or vanish )
20:54 mircea_popescu and diana_coman or hanbot or who will you pick have little problem in turning over next-day keccak patches on trees, as recently put on display. i don't think they're either smarter or blesseder than you, they just have the toolset ready.
20:54 mircea_popescu asciilifeform wanna run one with .1 s or 10ms ? that might be a good move.
20:54 asciilifeform i'ma try with 10ms
20:54 mircea_popescu just makew sure you put something in there to distinguish "my interface is shitdrops on the floor"
↖
20:54 mircea_popescu because we're not really into measuring shitty nat routers on cisco customer walls per se.
20:55 mircea_popescu early proto-test indicated most of the lossage happens before 2nd hop
20:55 asciilifeform how does one determine exactly which hop
20:55 asciilifeform ( i dun have a tap in florida, lol )
20:56 mircea_popescu in the worst case, capture the flow upstream and see if the box actually puts out the packets ?
20:56 mircea_popescu though in general can have interface log outbound, say.
20:57 asciilifeform thus far they all show up on my exit router, fwiw
20:58 mircea_popescu but yes -- the test can (and likely will) be tightened. for starters we just wanted to get a sort of "absolute path limits". and THESE do indeed turn out to be further out than originally thought -- 2kb packets make it np unfragged and in order 100% of the time, and even 20-60kb packets made it.
↖
20:58 mircea_popescu (and when didn't made it -- local interface dropping was the likely culprit)
20:58 mircea_popescu that whole "1 packet per burst makes it" was very much "well doh, 1 gets sent at all"
20:59 mircea_popescu ie, the 508 value largely mythical at this point.
20:59 asciilifeform about to post the 10ms variant ( 3 shots )..
20:59 asciilifeform yea i suspect 508 is a textbookism
20:59 mircea_popescu maybe was true. in 1994.
21:01 asciilifeform here goes :
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21:01 asciilifeform 1) http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/usa_tx_10ms_run1.txt http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/uy_rcv_10ms_run1.txt
21:01 asciilifeform 2) http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/usa_tx_10ms_run2.txt http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/uy_rcv_10ms_run2.txt
21:02 asciilifeform 3) http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/usa_tx_10ms_run3.txt http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/udpism/uy_rcv_10ms_run3.txt
21:02 asciilifeform ( still in 1 direction )
21:02 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i suspect wasn't even in '94
21:02 mircea_popescu 100% huh. nice!
21:02 asciilifeform apparently
21:03 mircea_popescu apparently some parts of the internet DID get better over time.
21:03 asciilifeform 0 reorderings too, loox like
21:04 asciilifeform 10ms is still pretty relaxed pace tho.
21:04 mircea_popescu truth be told, on the internet-as-we-thought-it-was, video on demand'd have been a miracle.
21:04 mod6 thats still 2 orders faster than the last test tho.
21:04 asciilifeform video does get to skip frames & buffer etc
21:04 mircea_popescu moreover, 1kb/s is one thing, 100kb/s ANOTHER thing.
21:04 asciilifeform mod6: i seem to recall a much sadder london test but that was with very heavy packets iirc
21:04 mircea_popescu i don't really want the traffic to go much over the kb/s range
21:05 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: then yer golden, loox like. at least if errybody has a path no worse than mine
21:05 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: keep in mind that traffic on receiver will be considerably moar than 1k/s
21:05 asciilifeform ( even if erry client sends at 300 baud )
21:07 asciilifeform will be interesting to try a shot with several people txing from different places. see if it triggers antiddos derpery somewhere.
21:13 mircea_popescu will happen by itself anyways.
21:13 asciilifeform in battlefield -- definitely
21:14 mircea_popescu but anyway, imo if mmorpg needs > kb/s connectivity something's misdesigned somewhere.
↖
21:14 mircea_popescu not including here asset transfers ; merely the "bread and butter" so to speak.
21:14 asciilifeform i've nfi why you'd want >1k/s per user, unless you were doing voices or somesuch exotica
21:14 mircea_popescu even if you do voices, client should acquire the asset and cache it.
21:15 asciilifeform i meant those mud folx who have microphones in the game
21:15 * asciilifeform never saw the appeal
21:16 mircea_popescu i don't see why they can't do this -- independently.
21:16 asciilifeform i.e. with telephones ?
21:16 mircea_popescu kinda weird for a restaurant to also attempt to provide phone service for the patrons. what, they can't carry phones inside ?
21:17 mircea_popescu asciilifeform through whatever they like. it's their fucking friends, neh ? sometimes gaming i'll speak acrossd table / yell across room w/e. my fucking harem, my fucking business.
21:17 asciilifeform i dun know the specific answer. but suspect it has to do with the sad audio mixer on most os. they wanna hear the game sounds + the chat.
21:17 mircea_popescu ah, os mixing still undone, 25 years later, huh
21:17 asciilifeform last i knew.
21:17 mircea_popescu good thing linux has code of shithead.
21:17 asciilifeform iirc this was even poettering's orig worming-in -- he claimed to fix mixing
21:18 asciilifeform ( spoiler : didn't )
21:18 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855023 << moreover, i can't imagine who the fuck would make this call ~for others~. you don't like having it, by all means, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-26#1854751 ; but i am not going to say "do not use v.pl".
21:18 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 15:57 phf: i think v.pl is a venerable tool, it's battle tested, it has established interface, it's been worked on for three years now. i don't see any reason to throw it out.
21:18 a111 Logged on 2018-09-26 18:52 mircea_popescu: so delete them, then.
21:18 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: phunphakt : mixer worked GREAT 20y ago. when hardware dsp in sound blaster.
21:19 asciilifeform THEN stopped when 'winmodem' soundcards.
21:19 mircea_popescu aha. i recall this also.
21:19 asciilifeform ~iron~ mixers : work. 'soft' liquishit -- surprise, surprise -- doesn't
21:19 asciilifeform esp on os with liquishit scheduler
21:19 mircea_popescu or should i say alsa.
21:20 asciilifeform any an' all of the 'soft' hacks
21:20 asciilifeform they dunwork. cuz how would they.
21:20 mircea_popescu myeah.
21:22 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855025 << actually this is exactly >> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1854931 ; i saw it there then, i checked it off in my head and did not return, that or any other wednesday, to check. turns out, it got dropped. don't do that!
21:22 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 15:58 phf: i guess it's presumptuous on my part to think that it's exactly obvious how to take vtools and plug it directly into an existing v's, but that's all that's needed
21:22 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 09:34 diana_coman: http://barksinthewind.com/2018/vtools-keccak-regrind/ -> gotta ask here, phf, am I missing something or what Wednesday was that there in the first line meant to be?
21:24 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855034 << indeed!
21:24 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 16:02 phf: you can basically do (cat foo.vpatch bar.vpatch qux.vpatch) | vpatch and expect the resulting press to be fully valid, hashes and all
21:25 mircea_popescu re stand-alone hasher : useful in general (for reason alf describes) even if not strictly needed for v work ; the only way to get one i know of atm is via eucrypt.
21:26 mircea_popescu dunno how many people keep that around though. i don't think it'd be a crime or anything to make a command-line keccak branch off of it, so people can just press to that if they want.
21:26 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: phf posted one earlier
21:26 * mircea_popescu sitll goign through teh logs. apparently going out for a few hours IS UNSAFE
21:27 asciilifeform lol
21:27 mircea_popescu Die Kais’rin hat sich mit dem Franzosen alliiert und das Römische Reich gegen mich revoltiert. De Russen sind gefallen in Preußen ein, etc etc.
21:28 asciilifeform ahahahayes
21:28 * asciilifeform sings...
21:30 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855041 << this is so, "here's a complete model" is a periodic necessity. just you know, can't complain that "not there jit when i wanted it". but yes in general, ur examples must be had, fully functional model trains must exist, etc. otherwise how to even run academia.
21:30 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 16:08 asciilifeform: imho the situation where 'errybody made own hack' but no one posted 'because obvious' is a barbarism, really ought to have a civilized 'here is the whole thing' sitting on www somewhere.
21:31 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: lol recall how we even ended up with v, ' asciilifeform : 'it is obvious!11 how to arrange trb patches' errybodyelse : 'nah' )
21:32 mircea_popescu indeed.
21:32 asciilifeform ( recall, we had gpg-signed patches with 0 robotics for yr+ )
21:34 mircea_popescu well... the republic is organically grown.
21:34 asciilifeform indeed, 0 nitrates!1111
21:35 mircea_popescu we don't do shit for any other reason than because "alternatives were reviewed, this came out".
21:36 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855053 << this is historical.
21:36 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 17:27 phf: trinque: vtools has not been design or intended to compete with any particular v implementation. it's a set of tools that you can use in a v workflow (hence the name). at least initially it was two matching tools vdiff and vpatch that know how to produce and consume a canonical vpatch. the conflation came up, because i also published vtools in a form that broke existing canonical v, v.pl, and was tasked with fixing the situation.
21:38 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855058 << iirc he was getting rid of that.
21:38 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 17:49 asciilifeform: esthlos's thing calls to gnupatch ?! ugh
21:38 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: shouldn't take much sweat, anyffing that calls gnupatch could just as readily call phf's
21:39 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855060 << and yes. schmuck's principle of "tolerance", doth not belong here.
21:39 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 17:54 asciilifeform: phf: imho your approach , i.e. dispensing with gnupatch, is The Right Thing, historically there was quite a bit of grief from gnupatch's habit of eagerly attempting to apply an invalid (by vtronic lights) but 'partially ok' by barbarian lights patch
21:40 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it not only made for very picturesque output in old buggy vtrons, but pretty terrible for blood pressure, as turned out that the supposed 'disable fuzzy' flags dun actually do anyffin in gnupatch
21:40 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855070 << this guy. getting him out of the flophouse was the best move ever.
21:40 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 19:17 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I have returned from the envirorast office, about to fire off a message to DHL informing them to try again as I am a provisionally acredited importer of packaged goods for commercial use
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