#trilema | 2017-09-12

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1712371 << hey, i have :D

00:41

Logged on 2017-09-12 01:04 asciilifeform: why not carry the 'think more, type less' thing to logical conclusion.

00:41

all the foregoing text was knocked in morse!

~ 1 hours 38 minutes ~

02:20

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1712377 << if keypress latency is a problem, odds are your os is shit. i generally throw out boxes that do it

02:20

Logged on 2017-09-12 02:43 kanzure: i would also like to register a complaint about lack of n-key rollover and also another complaint about keyboard keypress registration latency, thanks

02:22

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1712394 << easier to make a kbd than to make a suit. "bespoke bicycle", outside of say zagreb, is entirely "organic" scam item.

02:22

Logged on 2017-09-12 03:33 asciilifeform: ( not much reason to expect that it would cost substantially less than, e.g., bespoke bicycle costs. )

02:22

ie, priced so you feel good about how much you spent.

02:25

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1712422 << maybe time to consider theremin! see BingoBoingo 's typist cat!

02:25

Logged on 2017-09-12 03:44 asciilifeform: if you actually NEED 100s-of-wpm for something, as opposed to pissing contests in arena, dwelling on anything other than a bespoke (for YOUR hands) chorder, is lunacy.

02:28

trinque

asciilifeform: any reason not to define VERSION in knobs.h ?

02:29

*

trinque writing standalone tools for key->addr doodling, and eventually txn manip., had to define VERSION at the top of each.

~ 20 minutes ~

02:49

!!key bloofinch

02:49

http://wot.deedbot.org/CE98543599CCDABD532A5C7E8805E88288596862.asc

03:04

!!key bloodfinch

03:04

Not registered.

03:04

^ would have been cooler bird

~ 45 minutes ~

03:49

lmao

03:50

oops

~ 41 minutes ~

04:32

*

mircea_popescu aspires to one day meet a chick by the name o' shennaniganne o'sheridan.

~ 4 hours 48 minutes ~

09:21

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1712434 << this is hilariously, riotously wrong, btw. doyahave anyfuckingidea what is involved in making a DECENT ( i.e. injection-molded parts ) kbd ?

09:21

Logged on 2017-09-12 06:22 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1712394 << easier to make a kbd than to make a suit. "bespoke bicycle", outside of say zagreb, is entirely "organic" scam item.

09:21

in qty of ONE ?

09:22

eh, qty of one. "omfg, do you know what it means to make a planet on which snakes might evolve so as to have material FOR BUTTONS?!?!?!"

09:22

gimme a break. the letter A isn't your invention.

09:22

thread was about bespoke kbd

09:22

not microshit.

09:22

"bespoke" does not mean alfinsane.

09:23

let's forget model-f pistons and flappers. which aren't made today, and can only be made with injection mold. take, at the very minimum, that you decide how many keys, and where they go.

09:23

this means that the chassis is custom. out of what do you propose to make it ?

09:23

they still use commodity fabric, furnishings etc. they just tailor it to your ass is all.

09:26

would mircea_popescu accept 'bespoke' suit that in ANY way (aside from cost) falls short of mass-produced liquishit plebesuit ?

09:26

asciilifeform that doesn't enter into it.

09:26

because why

09:26

because arbitrarily decided ?

09:26

because it's not a relative.

09:27

"bespoke" does not mean "very nice and good".

09:27

it means 'exactly as i want, with the mass-produced plebeshit as minimal bar'

09:27

that's nonsense.

09:27

either the first part, or the second part. you can't mix these.

09:28

mircea_popescu would buy rollsroyce with bespoke cabin and soviet-quality engine ?

09:28

if "mass-produced plebeshit as minimal bar" is your criterion, then it definitionally is not bespoke. because it's not compared to you, it's compared to the mass.

09:28

so it might be "consumer premium" or whatever.

09:28

i did say 'mimimum'

09:28

*minimum

09:28

whatever flavour of weasel you mix in.

09:29

no amount of sophistry will justify a bespoke rollsroyce with soviet pistons, or a bespoke kbd where letters wear off .

09:29

*

mircea_popescu shrugs.

09:31

there's a substantial difference between "i don't like this" and "this doesn't compare favourably to rando coworker's item". these two can never mix. this isn't sophistry, but plain sense.

09:32

plox to concretize : when mircea_popescu goes to get a suit made, what kind of fabric does he specify ?

09:32

depends.

09:32

but i've yet to have a special textile plant made for it.

09:32

you would if you wanted a top hat!11

09:32

if i wanted it bad enough i guess.

09:33

in thread, 'model f' is approx. a top hat.

09:33

but this has nothing to do with the bespokeness.

09:34

the item directly to do with bespokeness is the difficulty of shaping heterogeneous solid objects with 0.01% accuracy.

09:34

i.e. the keys.

09:34

ie, when at the height of soviet obamacare you broke your leg and your mother made you an ad-hoc wooden contraption to fix it, she DID in fact bespoke you a traction, even if it sucked so bad as to compare negatively to african healthcare.

09:35

the only known satisfactory method is called double-shot injection molding, where the letter is cast ( yes, physical shape, e.g letter A ) and then key is cast ~around~ it

09:35

asciilifeform that difficulty is in no way particular. keys are commodity items.

09:35

unless you're getting your fingers measured for the key size or some shit.

09:35

if i want custom lettering -- not commodity

09:35

i guess.

09:36

is what thread was about. ( and that is at the minimal, in my case i also want to fit existing pistons , and req'd luft is no larger than what is permitted in rifle barrel )

09:37

you want your keyboard to have special letters on it ?

09:38

hypothetically ( actually trinque was the one who asked , http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1712398 )

09:38

Logged on 2017-09-12 03:34 trinque: anyhow I'd accept the bespokenness of key labels as a start

09:38

seems hardly worth the hassle. but anyway.

09:38

in my case i would even be content without letters, but simply to control the number and ~placement~ of keys.

09:39

which is the only thing that could not be done with massaged 'model f'

09:39

( lettering, to an adult man, on a kbd -- is optional. how often do you look ? )

09:39

this is a very difficult problem, arbitrarily placed keys.

09:39

correct.

09:39

requires custom solid objects.

09:39

( and not merely pcb )

09:40

with good wear characteristics, andthen the item wants to retail for 20 bux.

09:40

if it only needed pcb, everybody would just call up favourite pcb fab and then stfu

09:40

nightmare of a problem. what else you got ?

09:40

milled stainless prolly would not retail for anywhere south of 2000

09:40

*

asciilifeform seriously considered getting one done

09:41

what you need is one of those 50yo slave guys who spend life making chain mail and surgical steel stilleto heels.

09:41

there's like... i dunno, 8 total alive or somesuch.

09:41

i dun think they do 6axis cnc

09:41

why not ?

09:41

unsportsmanlike!11

09:41

it's not a sport. it's you know, service. worship.

09:42

possibly i am unfamiliar with subj

09:42

(note that all key arrangements, from atms to dishwashers, are in a rectangular pattern ; and i expect alf wants them radial or something)

09:43

dunno about yours, but mine are staggered

09:43

sure.

09:43

( subj : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-25#1661482 )

09:43

Logged on 2017-05-25 03:24 asciilifeform: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/IBM_Model_F_122.png << subj

09:44

anyway, i suppose i'm the only one that doesn't actually care all that much.

09:45

nah i know a buncha folx who dun care at all. they work with... pens

09:45

yes, but in point of fact i write as much or more as anyone, on a kbd.

09:46

for humanlang textentry, even a very threadbare kbd is notbad

09:46

( supposing you aren't doing it allday, everyday )

09:48

hey, i even put in pipe now and again

09:48

anyway. off to bed, this has been too much. laters!

09:49

nighty

09:55

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1712440 << so move it, lol

09:55

Logged on 2017-09-12 06:29 trinque writing standalone tools for key->addr doodling, and eventually txn manip., had to define VERSION at the top of each.

09:55

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1712439 << looks like open-and-shut case

09:55

Logged on 2017-09-12 06:28 trinque: asciilifeform: any reason not to define VERSION in knobs.h ?

~ 3 hours 46 minutes ~

13:41

trinque

seemed so, cool.

13:47

http://qntra.net/2017/09/us-debt-ceiling-adds-zeros-ensures-future-heroes/ << Qntra - US Debt Ceiling Adds Zeros, Ensures Future Heroes

13:47

in other non-noose, asciilifeform still searching for a http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-10#1696834 .

13:47

Logged on 2017-08-10 19:45 asciilifeform: forn00bz: an, e.g., rsa modexp, in ffa, must be representable by a long roll of paper, on it are ops for ordinary 4function calculator, with very patient slave. and roll ONLY ROLLS FORWARD and has finite # of instructions on it, known in advance when you decide the ffa width.

13:49

* asciilifeform seriously considered getting one done << Eh, go porcelain. Make and fire just like tile. Turk up your keys!

13:51

BingoBoingo: porcelain dun do 100million bangbangs

13:51

not even sintered ceramics, a la what my lathe cuts with, like shocks

13:52

if you wouldn't make a hammer handle out of it -- it makes for poor kbd material.

13:52

What are you banging it into that it can't be keycap on top of fiber cement subcap? (i.e. like a floor)

13:53

BingoBoingo: itself

13:53

understand, i dun use 'squishies', if every key dun sound like a kalash dryfiring, it ain't a keyboard

13:55

Even then, rest of switch mechanism doesn't have to be ceramic. Just the keycaps. Solves problem of letter wear. Everything else can be buttjection molded whatever, as long as it is soft enough to not piss of keys.

13:56

shock propagates

13:56

( and if you make it not propagate - you automagically get a thing that I WILL NOT USE because it ain't propagating to my fingertips )

13:56

what part of this is hard to understand.

13:57

Fine, vulcanized rubber keycaps it is

13:58

ew

13:58

*

asciilifeform actually owns a vulcanized rubber kbd, it is in machine shop

13:58

Tattoo black letter into white rubber, replace ever 25k kilometers

13:59

lol

14:01

Can make new key caps in actual jungle.

14:01

Now that this is decided, refocus to rest of the thing

14:12

asciilifeform: could etch the letters in; carve them out with a cnc mill. 'tis not the end of the world.

14:12

ben_vulpes: i dun want to FEEL THE LETTERS OMFG

14:12

surfaces are to be smooth.

14:13

so etch lightly!

14:13

then wear.

14:13

ooh could mask and anodize

14:13

wears.

14:14

understand, right here i have almost 40 y.o. keycaps that looks EXACTLY as when new.

14:14

this is a minimal bar.

14:14

there is to be no slip of the ratchet, no 'doctor cured your ear, but poked out an eye'

14:14

what was the method for making these?

14:14

doubleshot injection molding

14:15

asciilifeform: it's all dead. we live in the ashes.

14:15

http://www.yomura.com.tw/double-injection.html << illustration.

14:15

release your attachment to the perfect devices of years past, it but causes you suffering

14:16

http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2017-9-12#202821 << my favorites, just like engines! proper engine should be house-sized thing; run in steady state or not at all.

14:16

mimisbrunnr

Logged on 2017-09-12 01:00 asciilifeform: i even have comps with no input mechanism at all!111

14:16

how about no.

14:16

and i ain't eating 'american cheese' either.

14:17

every man in teh failed states of americastan gotta pick which things to salvage from the midden to cobble a life together from.

14:17

i spend 14+hrs/day with the thing in my hands, and it makes a difference.

14:18

would you eat from trough made for a pig ? that's what using plebekbd feels like.

14:18

it is a deliberately crafted insult to actual people.

14:19

i eat from tin pans i salvage from the midden, just like you.

14:19

speaking of which, and before it gets lost upstack, i still dun have a modular mult

14:19

this is in fact the only item holding up release of 'p'.

14:20

if ben_vulpes et al want to try their hand , i'll read

14:20

i am very behind on adaquest

14:20

forget for a moment ada

14:20

it's a mathematical problem purely

14:21

also behind on ffaquest

14:22

again you don't need to state it in compilable ada

14:23

you have the following primitives : multiplier ( 2 N-bit numbers -> 1 2N-bit number ); adder ( ditto ); subtractor ( ditto ); muxer ( 2 N-bit numbers, 1 single-bit number, yields one or the other N-bit depending on that single bit ) ; logical ops (and/or/xor/not)

14:23

that's it

14:23

there is also division but it is RUINOUSLY expensive

14:25

goal is, state a modular multiplier , takes A, B, N, (each is a B-bit number) and yields a B-bit result R, where R = a*b mod N .

14:26

( the rsa operation, the one and only, is modular exponentiation. but it is made trivially from modular multiplication . )

14:28

http://qntra.net/2017/09/far-left-media-covers-for-violent-even-further-left-ists-assault-on-landscaping-vehicle/ << Qntra - Far Left Media Covers for Violent Even-Further-Left-ists Assault on Landscaping Vehicle

14:28

ty BingoBoingo

14:28

http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/DA87978CF6FFCF25718681CFA15297476FC99BCEF0F5FB9DE3EAA5DC3326D5DA << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1768...8957 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '81.209.12.243 (ssh-rsa key from 81.209.12.243 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (da243.netikka.fi. FI 12)

14:28

http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/DA87978CF6FFCF25718681CFA15297476FC99BCEF0F5FB9DE3EAA5DC3326D5DA << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1776...0149 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '81.209.12.243 (ssh-rsa key from 81.209.12.243 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (da243.netikka.fi. FI 12)

14:31

i forgot to mention bit-shifts , but these are obviously also available.

14:31

http://qntra.net/2017/09/preet-reduced-to-panhandling-disc-jockey-again-demonstrating-costs-of-opposing-republic/ << Qntra - Preet Reduced To Panhandling Disc Jockey, Again Demonstrating Costs Of Opposing Republic

~ 43 minutes ~

15:15

in other news, https://elaineou.com/2017/09/11/fiat-institutions-in-virtual-worlds/

15:17

oyeah notbad, i spent coulplea hrs reading her pieces

15:17

why isn't she here, again

15:18

"Elaine Ou is a blockchain engineer at Global Financial Access, a financial technology company in San Francisco."

15:18

conceivably, scheduling conflicts ?

15:18

lol possiblywhy.

15:19

but anyway, afaik retired academia, stanford whatever.

15:21

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1712538 << this is not a bad point, showing a fine understanding of the history of huma nthought. fabrication of wear resistant small pieces went through a century old porcelain phase yes.

15:21

Logged on 2017-09-12 17:49 BingoBoingo: * asciilifeform seriously considered getting one done << Eh, go porcelain. Make and fire just like tile. Turk up your keys!

15:21

possibly not a good fit for kbd depending on how hard you hit.

15:21

discussed in thread

15:22

yes but your discussion is weak. porcelain is harder than you understand.

15:22

very very hard

15:22

that ain't the problem

15:22

problem is brittle.

15:22

not as brittle as steel.

15:22

mno.

15:23

*

asciilifeform pictures mircea_popescu posting from frozen wastes of pluto, where steel is brittle

15:23

every material is to a degree brittle much like every material is to a degree warm.

15:23

mircea_popescu: under what conditions is steel more brittle than ceramic?

15:23

problem with porcelain is weak internal bonding, not brittleness.

15:23

well yes, 'brittle' is shorthand for 'too brittle'

15:24

intuitively it may seem "oh, it's brittle", because whatever, dropped mom's china. but this intuition is wrong.

15:24

but i do wonder if this could be dealt with by mixing in steel wool or fibre or similar

15:24

ben_vulpes under equal conditions!

15:24

asciilifeform that's how it's dealt with, yes. improved mix, it's not straight up enammeled clay eh.

15:24

( a la ferrocement )

15:25

ben_vulpes understand, MOST historical porcelain ever made survived. this is very not true of steel, which ~all broke.

15:25

mircea_popescu: oxidization plays a role in the loss of steel

15:25

not 'fair fight', iron rusts

15:25

^

15:25

HA!

15:25

very fair.

15:25

see the recent discovery of cavalier swords at hadrians wall

15:25

buried under concrete, anaerobic environment, nearly everything survived

15:26

understand : if you spent your million dollars to buy knight's sword, it came with a "will not make it 20 years" guarantee. if spent same million dollars to buy china set, it came with "forever as long as your family line shall be" guarantee.

15:26

very opposite items.

15:26

forever << or until you ding it

15:26

(million dollars is perhaps not enough to buy either, but let's pretend fiatola has some modicum of value)

15:26

asciilifeform both items used in the intended manner. sword, as sword, cup as cup.

15:27

anyways, same-dimensioned columns of steel and china/ceramic; ceramic column will assplode under load that steel blinks at

15:27

but this hides the proper argument. ben_vulpes would you say "paper is stronger than spider web, i can tear the latter without noticing" ?

15:27

ben_vulpes not so. dimension here is not properly taken as "same kg" or "same m3"

15:27

for engineering considerations it most certainly is

15:28

it is a very uninformed argument. in point of fact the "Fragile" spider web is one of the strongest materials known.

15:28

need to know, or heuristicate, how much ceramic to make the handle out of

15:28

similar situation with porcelain, counterintuitively it is rather unbrittle.

15:28

paper and spider silk have vastly different densities

15:28

different ~everything; what, make me a strand of wood fiber as thin as spider silk and let's test it

15:29

which is why proper dimensional comparison counts relevant dimensions, not intuitively familiar ones.

15:29

notwithstanding that in many applications in the past back when we were 3 yo those were equivalent categories.

15:29

well this is the job of engineer, select correct materials for correct applications.

15:29

so far, job is select correct comparison.

15:29

myeah, dent test don't make so much sense applied to ceramics

15:30

we weren't discussing an application ; we were discussing a fact.

15:30

facts aren't open to engineering, they're the subjects o' science.

15:30

hence material science and materials engineering are different disciplines.

15:31

upstack : i've dropped a wrench on my model-f keys, and 0 chipped.

15:31

mircea_popescu: is trying to slip into the crack between 'science, indisputable facts!' and 'can't make a sword blade out of ceramic dummy, wrong situation'?

15:31

can say same for ceramic ? which one ?

15:31

asciilifeform i wasn't aware your design envelope was going to randomly expand to "i want a wrench droppable kbd now too".

15:32

originally it was fingers and it-against-itself.

15:32

it is good proxy for decades of whanging

15:32

but anyway, the original point was, that "abrication of wear resistant small pieces went through centuries of being porcelain based".

15:32

and thjis for a very good reason.

15:32

asciilifeform horrible proxy.

15:32

all it does is exclude porcelain.

15:32

trinque

"she has to fuck well, whether or not dropped off a building!"

15:32

~equivalent of "and policeman must not be black"

15:33

i'd incidentally be entirely open to buying porcelain keys, if anyone knew how to make these to the req'd dimensional tolerance, and see what happens

15:33

anyway, re the original design constreaints : porcelain way the fuck better than plastic for "dbl injection cast mold in qty of one"

15:33

( the tricky bit re tolerance, is the piston )

15:33

trained slavegirl can make you these by hand in an afternoon, whole set of beautiful keys.

15:34

mircea_popescu: for my enlightenment, how wouldja double-shot porcelain ?

15:34

you don't lol. you paint it.

15:34

lol!!!

15:34

you know, just like they do.

15:34

wears.

15:34

nope.

15:34

sure as fuck will wear after kilometres of acidic finger-rub.

15:34

you know not what you speak of, my man. and this time it's sad. go look at the art of the past would you!

15:34

it will NEVER.

15:34

nobody fondled those all day, every day.

15:34

you know what a faberge egg is for instance ?

15:34

sure

15:34

how is it made ?

15:35

paint

15:35

"do you know x ?" "i saw an x once for five minutes"

15:35

nut.

15:35

but no i dun have one here on my desk

15:35

there's no squirreling away out of studying THIS particular end of art.

15:35

go, do. great reads, great topic.

15:36

meanwhile, let us point out the logical next step on porcelain fabrication, which louis & friends were engaged in at the time of their unfortunate beheadal

15:36

so we never got to see it, would have been ruby-injected-with-saphire.

15:36

and similar, emerald-and-citrine "double injection molds

15:36

lolwat

15:37

the point being, that this here thing you've stumbled upon is actually a humongous cut branch of the tree of engineering.

15:37

and, contrary to diderot & wikitards "reality", there was in fact fascinating work ongoing in the ancien regime.

15:37

materials is 95% of actual engineering noshit.jpg

15:37

myeah. but pre-1797 it was very much QUALITY driven

15:37

and yes the french gave us the screwcut lathe and more or less everything

15:37

rather than a mass endeavour.

15:38

absolutely. mass shitware simply not existed yet.

15:38

and thus the question was very much in a similar vein to your kbd from before ; and the last time in human (ie, european) history this was the case.

15:38

*

asciilifeform knows this

15:38

and y'all have to thank bb for mentioning this, because i don't take iron to the wood so to speak.

15:43

<asciilifeform> problem is brittle. << Porcelain has a range of possible brittles. There are procelains sufficiently not fragile-brittle to take substantial foot traffic

15:43

foot is not a shock

15:43

another problem with the intuitive notion of brittleness is that it is poorly defined in the first place.

15:43

asciilifeform everything is a shock to some degree!

15:43

if you wouldn't bolt it to a kalash -- it is too brittle.

15:43

dude...

15:44

<asciilifeform> foot is not a shock << Not everything that consitutes foot traffic is footsteps

15:45

BingoBoingo: if dropped wrenches are part of 'foot traffic' then we agree

15:45

man pizza is part. so are various vehicles (such as de-icers) and etc.

15:45

Dropped wrenches, caster wheels, etc

15:45

<mircea_popescu> man pizza is part. so are various vehicles (such as de-icers) and etc. << AHA

15:46

(if you think "oh, man-pizza is soft np" have your girlfriend fall a coupla feet on top of you from say a fuck sling, get back to me.)

15:46

nah not soft

15:46

good test

15:46

( recall also 'frozen chicken test' in aviation )

15:46

well... the 200lb man it's not as kalahsh-SOUNDING as the 3 lb wrench!

15:47

and what is a spine, or fractured ribs with thereby fine points.

15:47

<asciilifeform> i'd incidentally be entirely open to buying porcelain keys, if anyone knew how to make these to the req'd dimensional tolerance, and see what happens << You solve this with grout

15:47

BingoBoingo: not grout, but individually lapping on a lathe. nasty.

15:47

BingoBoingo he solves it by fucking getting up to speed with 18th century art as an engineering practice!

15:47

^ AHA

15:47

Anyways you grout tile-keys to switch

15:48

you can formulate porcelain so it adheres to a metal lattice stronglier than the actual metal!

15:48

BingoBoingo: there is no 'switch', there is a piston fitting a barrel

15:48

Fine grout to top of piston

15:48

so you have your letterface "A" made out of gold and then the porcelain put around it.

15:48

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/animation-final-black-2.gif << likbez

15:49

<asciilifeform> https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/animation-final-black-2.gif << likbez << Plenty of room to grout to top of machined piston

15:49

i did at one point consider glass

15:49

( aluminized )

15:49

glass is a kind of porcelain for the needs of this discussion

15:50

as you'd use lead-alum-borax-doped glass

15:50

(also "not brittle" item in same sense, at that)

15:50

but yes this deserves to be settled experimentally. nao how to make pistons, cylinders, flappers...

15:51

(for the curious : porcelain is heat-rearranged Al2 Si2 05 (OH)4 ; glass is more generally heat-rearranged Si + metal)

15:51

the microscopic reason it is such a strong material is the oxigen-linked silica crystaline patterns that form.

15:52

the reason steel loses out is that the carbon is a shittier oxigen (more valences, weaker valences) and iron a dubious silicate.

15:52

!~later tell BingoBoingo http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/ofS4q/?raw=true

15:52

jhvh1

shinohai: The operation succeeded.

15:52

a fine example : porcelain does not swell. metals dilate significantly. suddenly, a different sort of brittle emerges.

15:53

ductility is not 'different sort of brittle' omfg

15:53

asciilifeform i was discussing the above "intuitive notion of brittleness is useless"

15:53

take iron, and get fatigue -- vs -- take ceramic, and get brittle - is a very real engineering tension

15:54

sorta why we have ferrocement

15:54

your definition of "ceramic" is not mine.

15:54

( these are not even fully disjoint concepts; there is even such a thing as 'metallic glasses' )

15:55

yes.

15:56

the important categories in this discussion are metals (ie, materials where the electrons don't sit with their atom ; form cloud. these -- always conductive electrically) ; porcelains (or glasses, or ceramics, or how'd you call them) and then plastics (polymerized item).

15:56

in this discussion wood is a plastic. and other such intuitively-surprising items.

15:58

*

ben_vulpes enjoying the surprises

15:58

(in fact, there's precious few examples known in nature where we actually have the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1704342 spider/coli/etc. trees are readily the largest -- "how to get natural item to secrete high quality plastic???")

15:58

Logged on 2017-08-28 23:27 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform im strictly going by the above "woman will do anything you wanrt provided it is what she ewas goping to do anyway". afaik, spiders do actually make variants of it.

16:00

(and yes, wood is a plastic is the key to ANOTHER side of "you didn't read up on your art in college, you lose" surprisebox. because yes, wood will do the "Doluble injection cast mold". it was the arab world equivalent of chinese china. look up "mother of pearl"

16:01

if you make your key of ebony or some other high quality wood and the letterface out of say mother of pearl, you have a very good wear profile item as well.

16:01

these, amusingly, were also driven by similar processes as the pre-usgification of europe, ie "gotta impress the single solitary unique sultan"

16:02

(and for moar lolz, take http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1712656 etc. these were meant to be SAT on. "oh, ass is soft" "you think so ?" etc.)

16:02

Logged on 2017-09-12 19:31 asciilifeform: upstack : i've dropped a wrench on my model-f keys, and 0 chipped.

~ 16 minutes ~

16:19

(nacre, if you're curious, is the natural alternative to porcelain ; some molluscs even manage iridiscent porcelain non-nacre lining, which is why gigas pearls are valuable)

16:21

in the simplest sense, mother of pearl is discs of calcium carbonate "glass" suspended in chitin (the insect plastic equivalent of celulose ; same thing as makes hair in mammals.)

16:22

the important point, however, is that nacre has a young's modulus as high as 100. (young modulus being a reasonable measurement of an aspect of intuitive "brittleness".)

16:22

after an euler original, no less!

16:27

*

asciilifeform pictures mircea_popescu's keyz with perlmutter inlays

16:27

it's not even so expensive, in today's terms. if only we didn't live among anodyne barbarians and the tech stack all rotten away.

16:28

for completeness also oughta mention ivory

16:28

but a kg of mother of pearl is cheaper to get than a kg of useful slavegirl. put some shell in a tank.

16:28

ivory is actually not proper part of this discussion. not either very good or very valuable, british "tea" nonsense.

16:28

dunno, worx on piano keys neh

16:29

i doubt you saw a piano that had non-bachelite keys

16:29

did see, but only because specially set out to.

16:29

but, "teeth of your enemies" always and everywhere indicated substitute to "teeth of surviving mamooth"

16:30

it's just dentine, nada mas.

16:30

reasonably good material

16:30

(all teeth are the same material, be it a lizzard's or your mom's ; it's a calcium hydrated salt.)

16:31

yes but why specify a dubious source for it. you want tooth, beat up some antifa hipsters, take their teeth make kbd.

16:31

you'll run out of elephants before you run out of stupid.

16:31

they dun have fist-sized tooth afaik

16:31

( or even model-f key-sized )

16:31

you can rebake this ; or grow it. it's not some mystical secret itam.

16:32

if yer sintering, just use modern material neh

16:32

ikr ? which is why yes decent material, not so much used.

16:32

bear in mind dentine is like 2.5 mohs. so not so great (which is why enammeled in actual firing-in-field tooth)

16:33

troo

16:33

anyway, only reason dentist doesn't bake you a new dentine layer is the temperature involved ; in a lab you can make arbitrarily large un-enammeled tooth.

16:34

but generally wouldn't want to ; fake teeth are not made this way because not really good enough.

16:34

*

asciilifeform wonders if any dentist knows how to laser sinter yet

16:34

yup. except not cost effective so far, porcelains have a century of refinement in dental prothesis supporting them

16:35

(incidentally, fake teeth are a metal cap with a porcelain top. very wear resistent, you chew 30 years on them)

16:35

well, there's also the screw-ins, but same principle.

16:36

this, i would buy for kbd. but it is not a low-tech item, not the least bit a 'simply bake, like a pot'

16:37

but way the fuck cheaper than making plastic injection molds for a run of one.

16:37

dunno if you could get the req'd tolerances without something entirely like injection mold.

16:37

( for either )

16:37

ie, a dentist's lab out of ten probably has a graybeard who could make you the keys for pay. considering what the item costs irl, prolly >1k <10k for the whole key set.

16:37

asciilifeform things that fit in mouths are very fine indeed.

16:38

and they do a sort of by-hand injection into hand-made molds, yes.

16:39

it's an idea

16:45

Sep 12 14:43:18 <asciilifeform> it's an idea

16:45

Sep 12 14:43:18 * Rothbart (51674d2b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.103.77.43) has joined #trilema

16:45

Sep 12 14:43:18 * Rothbart is now known as rothbart

16:45

Sep 12 14:43:18 * mircea_popescu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)

16:45

Sep 12 14:43:18 * Disconnected (Remote host closed socket).

16:45

if anyone can explain wtf sense this makes...

16:45

fleanode fleas bite

16:45

!!up rothbart

16:45

rothbart voiced for 30 minutes.

16:45

srsly, 240 seconds since the microsecond previous n lines ? pshaw.

16:46

I've registered a public key with the bot, but haven't verified it yet (key was generated on GPG4Win) - should I start over from my Linux box, with a new public key?

16:47

http://qntra.net/2017/09/buttfunex-preparing-for-another-insertion-sorry-for-your-loss/ << Qntra - Buttfunex Preparing For Another Insertion: Sorry For Your Loss

16:48

rothbart: it wouldn't hurt

16:48

asciilifeform - cheers. I read the article about the Cardano, but don't see it on NSA site?

16:49

rothbart: it mutated into a different item, FUCKGOATS

16:49

oh - but that does something rather different

16:49

rothbart: ( summary : we discovered that gpg is a turd, and is to be burned down, not encased in iron )

16:49

triage issue?

16:49

aha

16:50

I'm still busy dumping my bcrash safely; but a friend and I will be buying a few once we're done :)

16:51

rothbart: still waiting for shitcoin node to sync ?

16:51

mine took more than a week

16:52

*

trinque waiting on a turdnode as well

16:52

asciilifeform - haven't even started syncing it yet - still processing the plan in light of your advice (ie. sweeping via trb first)

16:53

it's all quite complicated, since I've been using Armory to manage my keys

16:53

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1712588 << i freely admit so well formalized this is a tantalizing problem. how slow is the obvious "multiply x and y, substract modulus from result until result smaller than modulus" ?

16:53

Logged on 2017-09-12 18:23 asciilifeform: you have the following primitives : multiplier ( 2 N-bit numbers -> 1 2N-bit number ); adder ( ditto ); subtractor ( ditto ); muxer ( 2 N-bit numbers, 1 single-bit number, yields one or the other N-bit depending on that single bit ) ; logical ops (and/or/xor/not)

16:54

mircea_popescu: ruinously

16:54

it's an O(N^3) op

16:54

and it happens B^2 times

16:54

ok, how slow is the following heuristicized approach :

16:54

(B being bitness )

16:55

i am referring, of course, to the standard shift-and-substract knuth division, which is in the previously posted ffa

16:55

1. multiply x and y ; 2. count bits of result ; 3. count bits of modulus ; 4. multiply modulus with count2 - count3 and test if larger than result. if not, substract. if yes, multiply with count2-count3-1 and do the same. repeat until result smaller than modulus.

16:55

^ you just described knuth division lol

16:55

oh damn

16:55

right you are.

16:56

this is a great fucking problem though.

16:56

and it is not only O(N^3), but when you modularly exponentiate it actually gets done B times, and not to B-sized inputs, but 2B ( because we have a multiply and then also a square, in each step of the B-step modular exponentiation bitwise )

16:56

myeah.

16:56

asciilifeform do you know how to ffa-base-convert ?

16:57

to arbitrary base ?

16:57

yes.

16:57

what would that do ?

16:57

take last digit, done.

16:57

other than taking away O(1) machine shifts

16:58

which are the only reason we are able to do anything reasonably efficiently at all

16:58

i tried the haskell approach to "Solving" problems, whadda ya want from me.

16:58

lol

16:58

let it not be said no one here speaks haskell.

16:58

i've been fighting with the modular mult thing since july

16:58

"what do you mean this problem is hard, i have a half baked item in my head i pompously call abstraction in which it is EASY!!!"

16:59

the literature has been screamingly, frothing-at-the-mouth antihelpful

16:59

( EVERYBODY, without exception, 1) did something intrinsically nonconstanttime 2) lied about it in print )

16:59

what about off-by-ones lessee

17:02

and oh did i mention 3) idiot specialforms (e.g. barrett's) , because if mother dropped you as a child specialform constraints on moduli seem like ok idea

17:04

the approach i've been (futile, so far) taking is, to find a way to interleave modularization into karatsuba

17:04

( because if you are doing anything other than karatsuba for mult of whatever variety, you're sunk )

17:05

asciilifeform: will I need to redownload the blockchain on trb?

17:05

rothbart: where did you get your existing one ?

17:05

core

17:05

then yes

17:08

rothbart if you have it in a portable data format, can just feed it into trb

17:08

but otherwise, prb much like any other windows app does not natively produce data in portable format.

17:08

I've been trying to grok the segwit "theft" incentive - as the bounty grows, so does the PoW defending it - doesn't this keep the segwit outputs safe?

17:09

how did you reason to arrive to that ?

17:09

there is no pow in segwit.

17:09

whole fucking point of segwit is to try and take pow away.

17:09

mircea_popescu: the classical ffa exponentiator, for reference, looks like http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/S4dWM/?raw=true . the ~modular~ exponentiator must look like http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/AiB9t/?raw=true . however it needs 'first, steal the chicken', i.e. FZ_Mod_Mul and FZ_Mod_Square .

17:09

as in, the attacker would be doing a chain rewrite in order to keep the segwit outputs on his fork?

17:10

rothbart that made no sense.

17:10

wouldn't he have to redo all that PoW since segwit wen't active on his fork?

17:10

no.

17:10

I've read the logs, still confused about this

17:12

let's drop the math for a moment and delve. at time t0, bitcoin works. at time t1, some wreckers under "public pressure" as discussed well in http://trilema.com/2013/digging-through-archives-yields-gold/ attempt to attack this bitcoin that works, by producing an alt-bitcoin, that does not work. the specific way in which the alt-bitcoin thatr does not work "works" is by deeding (exactly like deedbot) some strings into the bitc

17:12

does the attacker just build upon the main chain, then; sending all the segwit outputs to himself?

17:12

oin chain. on the basis of these mystery strings, OTHER PARTIES, which ARE IN NO WAY BOUND TO THIS, alloocate wholly imaginary bitcoins to the sort of imbeciles who buy into this scheme (always and everywhere, the stupid poor. to them it makes sense, they've nothingh to lose anyway)

17:12

now then. at time t2, any of those involved, or any third party, simply SPENDS that bitcoin.

17:13

the t1 wreckers may yell all they want this "is not right". but in bitcoin longest chain prevails, and so the story ends

17:13

(to be, of coruse, rehashed again and again forever, like mike gavin's asshole.)

17:13

rothbart yes.

17:13

ok, think I've got it

17:13

how is it that the power rangers are all BLIND to this?

17:14

(always and everywhere, the stupid poor. to them it makes sense, they've nothingh to lose anyway)

17:14

anyone, at any point, can claim all segwit outputs - all they need to do is solve the 80bit hash or whatever?

17:14

but whatever, i don't mind making money out of mit's "blockchain of the future", like i didn't mind fleecing "ripple" or cashing btc crash. free bitcoin will continue for as long as usg can draw breath, i'm not against. let them lose what they can't invest.

17:15

rothbart they don't need to do anything.

17:15

just mine a block with it spent, and that's that.

17:15

rothbart you're perhaps too new to know this, but the PREVIOUS time there was "miner consensus" it turned out the miners that "voted" and "supermajority" didn't give the slightest shit about the whole thing, and did NOT actually implement what they were misrepresented as having supported.

17:15

so the chain forked.

17:16

the exact same will happen again. "oh, you had a consensus ? lol."

17:18

asciilifeform how about something like squares interpolation ?

17:18

mircea_popescu: elaborate?

17:19

asciilifeform if you maintain a list of the mod and it squares

17:20

that ain't constantspacetime

17:20

ie, all the trivial polynomials of the mod, see ? x, x^2 + x, x ^ 3 + x etc etc

17:20

o fuck already.

17:20

this is called slidingwindow and it's what koch does.

17:20

yes yes

17:20

THE PROBLEM WITH MATHS IS OTHER PEOPLE GOT HERE FIRST

17:20

lol

17:21

!!up rothbart

17:21

rothbart voiced for 30 minutes.

17:21

fix your key already would you.

17:22

http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/uLQBe/?raw=true << karatsuba, for reference

17:22

yea, sorry - I'll do it properly on my Linux box - just got so many questions!

17:22

can I just register a new public key with deedbot, without revoking the old one?

17:22

on a new name.

17:23

but you can also update the old one, easier and safe.

17:23

(in a sense, key update with deedbot is like bitcoin spending!)

17:23

having some trouble decrypting the message deedbot sent me

17:23

( nao if only modulus were a distributive operation ! then could take mod for each of the 3 addition arguments inside karatsuba, and we'd be golden )

17:23

heh.

17:23

asciilifeform how is mod not distributive!

17:24

14 mod 5 + 11 mod 5 = 25 mod 5!

17:25

xy = (a+b+c), but xy mod n != (a mod n)+(b mod n)+(c mod n)

17:25

sadly.

17:25

of course it is ?

17:25

try it yerself

17:25

it is distributive in this sense at a minimum cost (tm).

17:25

take trivial case, a=b=c=1 and n=2

17:25

gimme an a b c ill try it right here

17:26

1mod2=1, 1mod2=1, 1mod2=1, but 1+1+1 = ...

17:26

3.

17:26

asciilifeform you understand you need AT MOST a single pass of knuth ? because it may exceed the mod but never by more than 3x ?

17:26

we dun get to do this

17:26

it ain't constanttimespace.

17:26

no 'but first bit...' etc.

17:26

you can write this coda so it is constant.

17:27

it will be ugly but it saves lives and stays correct.

17:27

if you're taking about the division, we already have this.

17:27

i am talking about how mod is distributive to addition "at a small cost".

17:27

that small cost can be slightly higher and constant time.

17:27

and yes you gotta subtract ALL of the words, even if it is obvious that subtractand does not go into the scratch

17:27

because again constanttime

17:27

and EVERY SHOT OF EVERY SUBOP must be pessimal

17:27

so you make it. the bound is 3x the mod!

17:28

just write it all out by hand, the constanttime mod distributivetor.

17:28

go upstack plox,

17:28

single pass of knuth where

17:28

and from where got the 3

17:29

you write by hand a function which takes a list with a promise none of the items on it exceed a mod, and returns the mod of the sum of the sum of the elements, in constant time.

17:29

THIS can be done.

17:29

then you feed the kara terms into it

17:29

and you save what, 10% of run time

17:30

if you could do this, you'd save much moar than 10% , because wouldn't have division anywhere

17:30

you understand, a mod x + b mod x + c mod x may be > x, but never by more than op count * x.

17:30

whereas nao we have http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1712830

17:30

Logged on 2017-09-12 20:54 asciilifeform: and it happens B^2 times

17:30

so you just write it out.

17:31

is this making sense or should i show the function ?

17:31

before you do, say how to compute the mods without division.

17:31

that is not my concern! if there IS a mod, then yo ucan apply it to the terms rather than add them first and apply to result, is all i'm saying.

17:31

( one answer is that at the very bottom of the barrel, where karatsuba hits the basecase comba mult, we permit division )

17:31

and STILL be constant.

17:32

this is still a restatement of the thing i asked for tho. i do not know of a way to distribute mod.

17:32

and this is potentially recursive, in that if you have a 500 bit number with 300 ones in it, you do the mod for 500 terms which are all a power of 2, throw 200 away, keep the other 300 and add them.

17:33

asciilifeform let me write it out then.

17:33

well yes. but how the hell do i distribute mod. observe in http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1712923 it dunwork.

17:33

Logged on 2017-09-12 21:26 asciilifeform: 1mod2=1, 1mod2=1, 1mod2=1, but 1+1+1 = ...

17:33

!!register http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/ttt9u/?raw=true

17:33

410951F4EED9132643015A058B46D224AE9E116C is already registered as rothbart.

17:34

asciilifeform :

17:34

for simplicity, input list limited to 2 elements, but expansion obvious.

17:34

1. sum the list.

17:34

2. compare result to mod ;

17:34

2.1 if larger, substract mod from it

17:34

2.2 if smaller, add mod to it

17:34

repeat 2 until you have populated a list of equal length, and return the correct element from it.

17:35

this will always take the same ops no matter what elements are in the original list.

17:35

we can't 'if'

17:35

we can, IF we do all the branches the same way!

17:35

any mention of 'if' turns into 'do BOTH and then mux'

17:35

yep

17:35

exactly.

17:35

and you restated knuth's division algo again

17:36

with the subtract

17:36

yes, but this is very cheap here. because the elements in list are < mod

17:36

so you won't have many passes of it. just as many as elements in list at the most.

17:36

http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/oVOak/?raw=true << subj

17:36

for reference

17:36

this is not one iota cheaper than what i have here.

17:37

that i can believe. though i expect the above is actually cheaper than adding teh numbers first and modding after.

17:37

the fundamental problem is that mod is not actually distributive.

17:37

jesus fuck already.

17:39

try (n+3) mod m =?= (n mod m) + (3 mod m)

17:39

died pretty quickly.

17:39

because you're dedicatedly stubborn.

17:39

( do i need to list contradiction, or is it obvious )

17:40

'distributive' means that you can do the above. and you can't.

17:40

this approach of "i have a girlfriend and i am blind to all else" doesn't work with girlfriends, or anything else.

17:40

the EXTRA COST of making mod actually distributive is SMALL.

17:40

the procedure is both obvious and insistently discussed above.

17:40

suggest something that doesn't reduce to my existing algo ?

17:41

i'll just pass.

17:41

any other takers?

17:41

some things are just not worth the cycles.

17:45

well we are talking about a O(NlogN) rsa vs a O(N^5) one

17:45

so i'd say it yes would be worth cycles. if anybody knew of an algo.

17:46

( and worth keeping in mind that in ffaworld adding two B-bit integers does NOT give a B-bit integer, it gives a B+W bit one. where W is our word width. )

17:46

the algo is above.

17:47

it's == to the existing one.

17:47

'restoring division' in vol2 of knuth.

17:47

nothing wrong with that!

17:47

aside from the fact that i already wrote it in july -- nuffin

17:47

good for you ; but your problem isn't what you presented it as being.

17:48

problem is exactly 'modular multiplication without division'

17:48

exactly as was stated.

17:49

alf : "probvlem is mod is not distributive" me : "it can be made, cheaply" alf : "no, it can not" me : "here" alf : "oh, i did that back in july". then wtf are you griping about.

17:49

i think we missed a step in the thread

17:49

and in today's reason #5409834 why tattoos are a bad idea : http://68.media.tumblr.com/c853da0a74a94227229869f0e9c8f35d/tumblr_nv9nfgHcTJ1stfekto1_1280.jpg

17:50

"have you thought about what'll you do about lingerie ? TRIBAL GIRLS CANT WEAR ANY!"

17:50

1) mircea_popescu describes algo for mod. 2) turns out exactly knuths's, that is in existing ffa 3) describes 'do it to each term of a+b+c in karatsuba' 4) this dun work, if it worked we would be bragging about the new 133337 recursive modular mult algo we've got

17:51

"it" in 3 is mod ? or what ?

17:51

!~later tell danielpbarron http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/IC3jF/?raw=true

17:51

jhvh1

shinohai: The operation succeeded.

17:51

aha mod

17:52

and yes it'd be 133337 if it worked, we would have a direct modular equivalent of karatsuba

17:52

but modulus only is distributive over multiplications, not additions.

17:53

and congrats, you've closed the liar circle on yourself. the only task remaining is to establish whether alf lied when he claimed that mp's distributive-mod algo is already in his ffa since july ; or rather he lied when he claimed distributive mod would actually be useful ; or at some other juncture.

17:53

but, what you say on this topic is in some proportion not true.

17:53

i was speaking specifically of the division algo

17:53

that one -- we already ahve (see the paste, and the old pastes)

17:53

<mircea_popescu> "it" in 3 is mod ? or what ? asciilifeform> aha mod asciilifeform> i was speaking specifically of the division algo

17:53

go have a glass of water, this is unstable.

17:53

what we do not have -- and don't have because it doesn't actually work -- is the karatsuba cut for modular mult.

17:55

and if mircea_popescu writes one -- i dun care if in fortran, cobol, malbolge, whichever, so long as it's something resembling a proggy -- i promise to read.

17:56

mircea_popescu: all we got atm for mod is http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1712980 . nothing moar.

17:56

Logged on 2017-09-12 21:36 asciilifeform: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/oVOak/?raw=true << subj

17:58

*

mircea_popescu cheated, had blackforest cake isntead of water.

17:58

well, let's try and salvage this nonsense through the mafgic of yes and no questions.

17:59

i highly recommend to read the past 1st, it is not long

17:59

*paste

17:59

i read it befoar. but sure, why not.

17:59

it and the prev, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1712905 .

17:59

Logged on 2017-09-12 21:22 asciilifeform: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/uLQBe/?raw=true << karatsuba, for reference

17:59

so, the paste is a division.

18:00

asciilifeform is the plan here to just keep adding reading material paper over fire ?

18:00

( this is the 'new' karatsuba, simplified, and demands powers-of-two-bitnessed operands. should be easier to read than old.)

18:00

lol

18:00

now back to the issue. 1. is it true or is it false that currently sums are calculated before the modulus of the result is calculated ?

18:01

true

18:01

is it true or is it false that you understand how to make modulus calculations distributive wrt addition ?

18:01

nope. and nobody else does either afaik.

18:01

because it dun distribute.

18:01

alright. then let me tell you how to do it, and if you fucking say you did it in july ima buy a plane ticket and hang you by the tallest petard.

18:02

let's hear?

18:02

( i promise i have nfi how to do it. just like i don't know how to make 2+2=5 )

18:03

1sec

18:03

( and what part of (a+b) mod m == (a mod m) + (b mod m) is breakable with infinitely many a,b,m values, is hard ? try it yourself )

18:04

alrigthy, so. you take a list of numbers. you add these numbers. you write the result down. you compare this result with the modulus. if the result is smaller than the modulus, you add the modulus to it and write it underneath ; if larger, you substract the modulus and write it underneath. you repeat this step until you have a list of added/substracted moduli to the result AS LONG as the original list of elements. in it, you

18:04

will necessarily have the modulus of the sum. this entire procedure is constant time.

18:04

happy nao ?

18:04

waitasec didja.... add them?!

18:04

yes.

18:04

i thought you had algo for not having to add'em

18:04

so as not to feed a massive turd into an O(N^3) division algo

18:04

what you feed to this algo is the a mod x

18:04

not the a itself.

18:04

but instead 3 smallers

18:05

and what it spits out is the (a+b+c) mod x.

18:05

*

asciilifeform smashes head into desk

18:06

what!

18:07

karatsuba terms a+b+c ( k. squaring, for simplicity. mult. has four of'em ). we want a+b+c mod m.

18:07

if you allow a+b+c addition to take place, you have exactly same proggy i have now.

18:07

you don't do that.

18:07

let's take fucking numerical examples already. a = 349087340 ; b = 1209843095 ; c = 753059056. mod = 5.

18:07

ok...

18:07

bad list

18:08

let's take fucking numerical examples already. a = 349087340 ; b = 1209843095 ; c = 753059056. mod = 7.

18:08

waaait why bad

18:08

cuz first two are 0's.

18:08

trivial case, not my intention.

18:08

lolk

18:08

plz carry on

18:08

you could do a+b+c = 2311989491 mod 7 = 0.

18:09

you can ALSO do : 349087340 mod 7 = 0 holy motherfucking crap omfg what is this.

18:09

how did i mash a random number mod 7 already.

18:09

ahahahahahaha

18:09

let's take fucking numerical examples already. a = 349087340 ; b = 1209843095 ; c = 753059056. mod = 17. << final!

18:09

tkae 4 primez plox

18:09

so as to avoid this.

18:09

tell you what, you shoot three values.

18:10

ok:

18:10

a=5, b=7, m=11

18:10

8 digit numbers plox.

18:10

smallints confuse the issue.

18:11

ok:

18:12

1433293, 7926803, 9266137

18:12

ty.

18:13

now then : you could do 1433293 +7926803 +9266137 =

18:13

18626233 which mod 17 is 13

18:13

last one was supposed to be mod

18:13

( i thought we were doing a+b )

18:13

but sure

18:14

you can ALSO do : 1433293 mod 17 is 6 ; 7926803 mod 17 is 9 ; 9266137 mod 17 is 15.

18:15

you feed into my above function the list 6, 9, 15. it adds them : 30. it then writes down 30 -17 ie 13. it then writes down 13 + 17 = 30. it has peroduced a list as long as the original (3 elements), among which the SECOND is the modulus of 1433293 +7926803 +9266137

18:15

though it never added 1433293 +7926803 +9266137 ; it added 6 and 9 and 15.

18:16

now what happens if the inputs are not coprime ?

18:16

try it yourself!

18:16

put numbers in here, i'll do it for you if you wish,.

18:16

in any case : you run it until same length list ; smallest int on it will be the correct mod. always terminates, always constat time etc.

18:17

no need to even define length of list.

18:20

i'ma need to find a proof that this holds for all integers.

18:20

but aside from this , it isn't clear to me that it saves any cycles

18:20

well, i dunno how expensiuve addition is and how much it adds to the mod.

18:20

the modulus is same bitness as the operands, and is not small.

18:20

but it certainly holds for all ints.

18:22

but the original idea was that it is indeed cheaper to mod the parts than the whole sum.

18:23

only if we did not then have to sum'em ( the 30 in the example )

18:23

asciilifeform well, modulus bitness sum as opposed to N bitness sum. but sure.

18:24

modulus bitness == operand bitness. this is ffa after all.

18:24

all bitnesses -- same.

18:24

it is also extensible in the sense that if you wish to compute the mod of a 512 bit number, you can cut it up into as many powers of two as there are 1's, feed it into this, and get a modulus.

18:25

except we dun get to use 'where there are 1s'

18:25

this may or may not be cheaper ; but in general you would build a list of the pre-calculated mods of all the powers of 2 up to your bitness and save that to save on work.

18:25

mircea_popescu: that's the kochian table approach

18:25

aha.

18:25

which is somethign we specifically aint doing

18:25

whole point of ffa, is this notdoing

18:25

but the important point re that, is that whenever they use a reduced matrix we can STILL use the ufll matrix!

18:25

it's not automatically bad just for being a list ; you don't have to pare it down.

18:25

it is bad for being indexed by a secret

18:26

you don';t have to index.

18:26

which is an instant cache death.

18:26

at all.

18:26

you do if you want to get anything out of having a table

18:28

consider the number 97. is is 1100001. they do mp_mod (2^6, 2^5, 2^0) ; you can do (2^6, 2^5, 0* 2^4, 0* 2^3,0* 2^2,0* 2^1,2^0). the list method will sitll work, but this time in constanttime.

18:28

i dun see what this gives you tho

18:28

whether this approach is actually faster than the current mod of 97 as implemented via knuth is open to discussion, i guess.

18:28

well i have nfi, haven't profiled the thing.

18:28

as far as i can see it is exactly same

18:29

but with moar space overhead.

18:29

i personally like the formalism of it ; but whatevs.

18:29

( additions produce B+W-bit ints, and these get out of hand very quickly)

18:29

asciilifeform if this is true, then the above method should be way faster.

18:30

let's take the case where modulus is maxint

18:30

( all bits set )

18:30

ok.

18:30

then a mod m == a, b mod m == b, etc

18:30

precompiled list of all powers of two is then 1.

18:30

and you're stuck adding a+b... again

18:30

so you have a very simple case.

18:30

you just add literal 1s.

18:30

1bit

18:31

i dun get from where you got the 1s

18:32

say a number.

18:32

9266137

18:33

ok. ima just take the 137 tail cuz lazy. 137 is 10001001. we have precalculated that 128 mod 17 is 9, and that 8 mod 17 is 8, and that 1 mod 17 is 1

18:33

so now we feed my procedure above : 9, 8, 1. it returns 18, 1, 18 ie 1.

18:33

and now we know 137 mod 17 is 1.

18:34

if you want constant time, you feed the list 9, 0,0,0,0,8,0,0,1. it will do 18, 1, 18, 1, 18, 1, 18, 1 etc.

18:34

same thing.

18:34

except it does exactly as many cycles as the classical method.

18:34

this holds for arbitrarily large numbers, and i suspect will be faster than classical.

18:34

i dunno about that.

18:34

because we're muxing over the entire list every single time

18:35

and for every new modulus, you gotta cook up a list

18:35

which takes ages

18:35

i'll take your word for it if you say so ; i've not looked at them closely in comparison.

18:35

this btw is also in vol2 of knuth

18:35

heh

18:35

called 'addition chains'

18:35

!#s "THE PROBLEM WITH MATH"

18:35

1 result for "\"THE PROBLEM WITH MATH\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22THE%20PROBLEM%20WITH%20MATH%22

18:35

it is ok for rsa where you sink it to the bottom of the sea and never intend to change the modulus

18:36

but useless for ptronic.

18:36

but actually congrats to mircea_popescu for reinventing 2 separate knuth algos.

18:36

but that inconvenience is not the same as the "Same number of cycles" claim.

18:36

it is ~greater~ number of cycles, by far, if you count the 'tooling' cost of preparing the table for each new modulus.

18:36

asciilifeform im pretty sure i read the whole knuth as a teen, so it's likely just memory at work.

18:37

possib

18:37

incidentally there are other algos where you pre-bake a thing for a given modulus and save some cycles. montgomery's, for example.

18:38

it requires a constant-time gcd, however, to be constant-time. ( and has a problem same as above in that it takes much MORE time than naive algo if you don't reuse modulus forever )

18:40

*

asciilifeform brb

18:46

phf

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1712362 << i actually use this one pretty frequently when i type for identifiers, abbreviations and section headers in notes. really any time i need to type more than 2 capitalized letters in a row..

18:46

Logged on 2017-09-12 00:50 PeterL: hmm, here's another key I never use, what does "Caps Lock" even do?

18:51

phf

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1712367 << i've went through many layout modifications, but i finally settled on just having () and [] switched around. it's convenient both for prose and lisp (not so much heathen languages though)

18:51

Logged on 2017-09-12 01:01 PeterL: I suppose people who are not programmers do not use ( or ) much, but does anybody actually use [ and ] any more often?

19:01

phf

damn, it's a long log

19:01

*

phf goes to sleep instead

19:09

anyway, three points since i got a blowjob and apparently this inspires me.

19:10

1. if you actually want metal kbd, your choice of steel is probably ill advised. i'd try silver instead. heuristicallyt there's a reason gunsmiths and silversmiths were ~the same people i nthe early modern period ; moreover silver has better properties in the range sough.

19:11

2. a fine example of how "i work for the web man" rots the brain, is that in an implementation of the above discussed mod-distributiver, the "common" consensus impulse would be to add a test, make sure the list elements respect the condition of <modulus. this however is very much the wrong thing ; and it is a tmsr-graduate level question to explain why and wherefore.

19:12

and finally 3. the item there described is not exactly a function. it rather something i'd call a mechanism, a discrete item that does a fully defined thing. as we're looking more and more through ada eyes and constant time things and so on, a study of these mechanisms as an distinct category will prolly be useful. somewhere between conway's cells and commandline utils, they are.

19:18

and in other random lulz, http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/09/12/59b6dd77468aeb545d8b4583.html

19:18

run of the mill pantsuit idiocy, but then suddenly "Es que en Rumanía todos se llaman Mircea Popescu. ¿Sabes?"

~ 25 minutes ~

19:43

mircea_popescu: silver tarnishes and has abysmal mechanical properties and why

19:49

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1713185 << the 'mechanism' is... algebra ( see also http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-10#1696309 etc )

19:49

Logged on 2017-09-12 23:12 mircea_popescu: and finally 3. the item there described is not exactly a function. it rather something i'd call a mechanism, a discrete item that does a fully defined thing. as we're looking more and more through ada eyes and constant time things and so on, a study of these mechanisms as an distinct category will prolly be useful. somewhere between conway's cells and commandline utils, they are.

19:49

Logged on 2017-08-10 03:23 asciilifeform: what is needed is a wholly algebraic process. like my mult.

19:50

( and http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-10#1696834 probably being canonical statement thereof )

19:50

Logged on 2017-08-10 19:45 asciilifeform: forn00bz: an, e.g., rsa modexp, in ffa, must be representable by a long roll of paper, on it are ops for ordinary 4function calculator, with very patient slave. and roll ONLY ROLLS FORWARD and has finite # of instructions on it, known in advance when you decide the ffa width.

19:50

mod6

evenin

19:50

hiya mod6

19:51

mod6

gotta catch up ...

19:52

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1713184 << in ffaworld, a < or > or == comparison is not only a subtraction (O(N)) but another O(N) test for nullity (xor all the words together)

19:52

Logged on 2017-09-12 23:11 mircea_popescu: 2. a fine example of how "i work for the web man" rots the brain, is that in an implementation of the above discussed mod-distributiver, the "common" consensus impulse would be to add a test, make sure the list elements respect the condition of <modulus. this however is very much the wrong thing ; and it is a tmsr-graduate level question to explain why and wherefore.

19:52

comparing (or subtracting) 0 and 0 takes same time as maxint and maxint or maxint and 0 etc

19:53

this was probably obvious to everybody tuned in, but bears restating.

19:53

( in heathen world, if the upper bit of one comparand is set, and the other's corresponding bit is not, you stop right there )

19:55

re 'mechanism', also can restate : if something cannot be expressed as a boolean circuit, it is not constantspacetimeizable.

19:55

everything you've seen in ffa to date, is unrollable into iron circuit.

~ 25 minutes ~

20:21

incidentally i dun think i've put into the logs why montgomery's modular mult algo is unusable

20:22

reason is that it demands special forms and therefor is not a general-purpose modexp

20:22

specifically demands that the modulus be odd, and that it must be greater than either multiplicand.

20:23

if either condition is false, it will silently shit out garbage.

20:24

( the thing is widely used in rsatrons which agree to constrain themselves thusly, but is entirely irrelevant in ffa )

20:24

a*b mod m MUST WORK FOR ALL INTEGERS .

20:25

no 'speshul rsa forms' in ffa.

20:25

asciilifeform silver dun tarnish lol, there's such a thing as proper silver. and it has low melting point and easy to work and it doesn't grow fungi.

20:25

and so on.

20:25

it will tarnish when full enough of acidic finger oil.

20:25

you ever had silverware ?

20:25

sure

20:25

tarnished ?

20:26

certainly not shiny like scalpel, no.

20:26

i ate off my great-grandfather's set, still clean as the day in 1870 it was made.,

20:26

yes well, guess what, your model & kbd is also not like scalpel.

20:26

it would be if stainless

20:26

surgical steel works at 2700 degrees. silver at 700.

20:27

silver you can work with hammer ; steel must be drop forged. and so on.

20:27

i was thinking of machining but yes

20:27

for your actual needs, silver kbd much better than steel, if you're going to go metallic (which, not great idea in first place).

20:28

why not ?

20:28

because very expensive to work, for instance.

20:28

well thread was re a hypothetical nothing-spared kbd.

20:28

so i'd go for, say, monel.

20:28

dunno if anything'd beat monel.

20:29

nickel ?

20:29

ugh ever wore a nickel watchband ?

20:29

i dunno, maybe. i've little experience with the item.

20:29

nickel is prolly the least biocompatible metal

20:29

but it does share silver qualities, ie easily fabricable.

20:29

asciilifeform monel is nickel.

20:29

2/3 by weight.

20:29

no moar than steel 'is' carbon

20:30

iron.

20:30

carbon is 2-3% in steel.

20:30

monel ( and more recent inconel ) is spiffy unreactive nickel alloy, used in aggressive envir (e.g. molten na reactor tubing)

20:31

a special kind of zamak.

20:31

lol chrome not zinc

20:31

anyway, doesn't mix well with other metals is its main thing.

20:32

that's quite ok, make whole thing from it

20:32

good enough for tokamak, good enough for kbd...

20:32

i'd still take silver myself, if i were doing "metal kbd". not that i would.

20:34

*

asciilifeform currently surrounded by tall pile of -- mostly worthless -- literature re mod mult

20:34

srsly, couplea kg worth by nao

20:38

95% of the academitards dun even bother with any attempt other than 'how do i montgomery slightly faster'

20:39

i think that i would like wood keys.

20:39

can even get the inset bit asciilifeform slavers for

20:41

ben_vulpes: how do you propose to make 200+ identical wooden keys with the proper shape ?

20:42

( and 'redefine the shape' is not an answer )

20:42

how would you make the meniscus ?

20:42

a mill

20:42

ben_vulpes http://www.instructables.com/id/WOODEN-KEYBOARD/

20:43

ewwww

20:43

shinohai: no good

20:43

(Only good fer Crapplebook Pro)

20:43

asciilifeform: meniscus also with a mill.

20:44

ben_vulpes: so why wood then

20:44

so that it can get stuck in the piston when humidity goes up 5%

20:44

?

20:44

Wait, this is faux keyboard, merely shapes stuck on top of keys

20:44

lol!

20:44

asciilifeform: why use wood for the piston mating face?

20:45

granted i have not seen this piston kb design you've mentioned

20:45

ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1712731

20:45

Logged on 2017-09-12 19:48 asciilifeform: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/animation-final-black-2.gif << likbez

20:45

oh buckling spring

20:46

yes, that's what a keyboard is

20:46

you said piston, i was imagining fancy tiny pistons with overpressure valves!

20:46

it dun have to be an actual spring, ftr

20:46

ibm made a magnetically-tensioned kbd at one point

20:47

so long as you get the sproing -- worx

20:47

point stands, don't use decorative materials for the precision tracks

20:50

*

asciilifeform goes 'wtf, THIS crackpottery of mine - you lot find interesting, but the stubborn boojum that keeps 'p' from happening, not interesting somehow '

20:51

and ftr mircea_popescu your algo takes at least N times more cycles than the classical.

20:52

i find it very interesting, but do not have anything useful to say on it!

20:52

( does N subtractions , N nullity tests, and when modulus is maxint ( and therefore at all times ) it reduces to the classical's cost )

20:55

dude get out, every shape can be made out of wood cheaper and faster than ~any other way except for ABS injection.

20:56

let's ask pete_dushenski if there are wooden gears in his rolex

20:56

omfg with the moving of goalposts

20:56

nevermind the rolex. and nevermind "humidity" bs, wood is not pine.

20:56

ironwood would probably work.

20:56

there are wood painted icons survived fine (ie, no cracks in cunt mary's face) for 1k years.

20:56

there's all sorts of options in the hardwoods.

20:57

to what stress is the picture frame subject ?

20:57

humidity varying in open air church.

20:57

but yes i thought about wooden keys. probably would want a custom milling rig to make'em ( something like a lens maker's lathe )

20:58

though i have nfi how one would do the inlay such that surface is smooth to the touch

20:58

presumably you would inlay 1st then cut the meniscus.

20:58

winder/summer/ and the century floods.

20:58

and also it's not a matter of " THIS crackpottery of mine - you lot find interesting, but the stubborn boojum". it's a matter of you being more hysterically terrible ad kbd design than at p design.

20:59

i dun actually make keyboards. but did once say 'i'd like a stainless steel kbd' and for some reason the reaction is always 'no have THIS instead'

20:59

asciilifeform yes, you first inlay then shape. this is how it's done.

21:00

*

shinohai gives asciilifeform cardboard keyboard instead ....

21:00

asciilifeform because "stainless steel kbd" is an entertainingly stupid notion ; and what's more it's pecularly stupid in the way your stupid works, i can see it relate to the "fuck you guise, ima live on a boat" and so on. spherical cow sorta approach.

21:00

prolly if i desperately wanted custom keys, i'd laser the letters and then cast into acrylic.

21:01

the people you linked re "here is what dbl injection is" will actually do exactly that for you, also. it's not THAT expensive.

21:01

superficially it seems like omfg lotta money ; but not so bad. people can afford to make eg icecube trays that retail for 3 bux ie cost a quarter each. how many of those sell ? 10k if you're lucky.

21:01

hurr durr, you're out 10k for the run.

21:02

low-tech , 'cheap & angry'

21:02

and probably last as long as plastic keys.

21:02

yeah 5-10k usd

21:02

there used to be a club where various folx pooled dough and bought.

21:02

( it is -- unsuprisingly -- mostly tooling cost )

21:02

*unsurprisingly

21:02

right.

21:02

besides, you won't make one, you'll make say 100. because fuck it.

21:02

recently there was even a d00d who had entire model f made this way, in a run of 1000 or so

21:02

and then after you start using it people fight for it and there.

21:02

but for some odd reason he made a variant without f-keys, arrows, numpad

21:02

MOST of "branded" consumer items are ~this anyway.

21:02

~unusable

21:03

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com << linked for compleeetness of thread

21:03

there's even dedicated "investment" stupid money chasing such "ideas". not as many as there were in the 90s, owing to a lot of unfortunate interactions with various "transhuman" tards past 20 years, but still some.

21:03

( seems to have variant with numpad nao! but STILL no f- )

21:04

at any rate if you put an order for keys they'll be relieved. "really, not pens for once ?! holy shit this is the most exciting this job ever got"

21:04

the saving grace is that indeed i and everybody else can get by without ideal modelf kbd. but on the other hand i ~do~ need a modmulter.

21:04

one way or another it will have to appear.

21:04

myeah.

21:06

so in the end what was it, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1713104 or http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1713161 ? cuz i don't expect it can be both dubious and well known at the same time.

21:06

Logged on 2017-09-12 22:20 asciilifeform: i'ma need to find a proof that this holds for all integers.

21:06

Logged on 2017-09-12 22:35 asciilifeform: this btw is also in vol2 of knuth

21:08

mircea_popescu: i'm satisfied that it holds, as written. in re knuth, turned out that i was thinking of the 'addition chains' method of mod-exp

21:08

which resembles yours, and doesn't win anything in our case.

21:09

anyways. i spent some time where the math lives, and i am satisfied that proving some sort of hard relation between fxy=mod(xy) and a polynomial expression of xy is in fact reality-breaking.

21:09

and consequently won't be forthcoming.

21:10

is what i was trying to get across in the beginning

21:10

all that's left is little cheats here and there.

21:11

most of which are verboten by the whole "mechanism" view of things.

21:11

correct

21:11

so, want a frog you can kiss into housekeeper&cocksucker all you want, for all the good'll do ye.

21:12

( incidentally reader might ask 'why not do montgomery? you're doing rsa anyway' and answer is not only 'maybe tomorrow, cramer-shoup and not rsa' but also that we do things such as primality testing , and other non-rsa op )

21:12

the sadness here is that indeed tmsr-rsa is turning into separate item from p itself.

21:13

i hold that it is not meaningful to attempt to separate'em

21:13

because optimizations. which may piss you off, but it'll be done anyway ; and the process MUCHLY reminds me of how bitcoin mining degraded irl.

21:13

and that an rsa that is not ptronic is not worth using

21:13

which is a serious point of alarm in my head at this juncture.

21:13

if idjits want to optimize in a way that results in nonfittinginhead, they may as well install winblowz

21:13

and use usg's rsa.

21:13

because there is demonstrably no difference.

21:14

it's a complicated problem./

21:14

dunno what is complicated about this

21:14

if we gotta compute on fpga, to do rsa sanely -- then fpga it is. 8192-bit regs.

21:15

the point re why the fuck does everything have to degrate stupidly is what's complicated about this.

21:15

degrade*

21:15

it degrades because folx let it.

21:15

when you stop letting -- it stops.

21:15

even if cost is 1e6 litres of blood.

21:15

"badly built house walls fall because people let them ; and when the "stop" letting them by starting propping them up, they stop falling"

21:15

not by propping

21:15

by shooting architects.

21:15

lol

21:16

propping is how you get walls that dun stay up 5sec when unpropped.

21:16

i dunno how many people you will have to shoot to keep them from taking your general-purpose p-based rsa and writing a narrower, "works for rsa only" faster program.

21:16

like kochian rsa.

21:16

neither do you. it's unbound.

21:16

you solve this by making the sane solution, actually usable.

21:16

your sane solution won't be the fastest.

21:17

that's always the trade-off, clarity for specificity.

21:17

it's every bit the fastest when sat on proper iron.

21:17

btw, you have any exposure to the racing cars social millieu ?

21:17

not directly

21:17

the sort of culture of the 70s/80s of which "need for speed" franchise is a sad bastardization in the ustardian hot topic sense ?

21:18

the folx who took stock cars, and tore out seats, floor, etc ?

21:18

ok, quick summary : tech pre-injectors was carburators. engines "optimized for racing" got slowly more complex over time. then injection became feasible, and they simplified. now they've recomplexified again.

21:18

this is a cycle

21:18

it is indeed

21:18

asciilifeform engine work the interesting part, but sure.

21:18

and answer is that obviously idjits will take ANYTHING you make, sane rsa, sane kalash, whatever, and Bolt Shit To The Side

21:19

but the process is interestring, they kept adding shit to the old engine to "make it better". which it did, at the cost of becoming unmaintainable.

21:19

so much so that ONLY DRIVER could fix own car.

21:19

and result, whatever else it may be, is not sane. in that it no longer ~demonstrably~ behaves as specified.

21:19

it is NOT RSA

21:19

it is usg.rsa.

21:19

notwithstanding EVERYONE there had the practical, earn equivalent of 5 phds in mech eng.

21:19

this is the typical complexitycollapse, happened to, e.g., ibm pc

21:19

then injection came about, and they scrapped the old designs

21:19

BUT!!! restarted the complexification process.

21:19

and just about everywhere where folx did not actively push back.

21:20

understand, you gotta ACTIVELY push back

21:20

shoot people for adding complexity. regardless. of. why.

21:20

sounds a lot like "your house is fine mr p, for as long as you hold on to this here bearing beam"

21:20

it's a pollutant.

21:20

ok, where does it come from ?

21:21

comes from young cocks who want to 'make their mark', most typically

21:21

and did not get properly hammered down

21:21

does it ?

21:21

take the inconvenientmost example, of bitcoin mining.

21:21

technically you're right -- the change fgrom satoshi's prototype mining to today's item comes exactly from "young cocks" trying to get laid.

21:21

it also comes from 'reasonable' people who 'oh hey i can make rsa 1.5x faster if i use weird bases, so what if my code is now 20kline instead of 2k'

21:21

nevertheless...

21:21

well it IS 1.5x faster.

21:22

except that : it is no longer the SAME IT

21:22

not demonstrably.

21:22

point being, until and unless the process is thoroughly and well understood, we'll keep being blindsided by "mining is a bug" bugs.

21:23

i know i was. ie, it was not directly evident to me that mining as originally designed has this weakness.

21:23

the process is 'must fit in head'. for so long as item fits in head, it is demonstrably solving the stated problem ( which, unsurprisingly, must also fit in head as a statement )

21:23

asciilifeform so how do you redefine "winning the race" ? have the drivers recite the engine parts afterwards, disqualify all errors ?

21:24

mircea_popescu: the race is a fuzzy thing to begin with, if the cars can be arbitrarily altered

21:24

( where do they draw the line ? why not rocket engine ? )

21:24

not really, very "intuitively" obvious.

21:24

monkey ahead!

21:24

ahahahahalol

21:24

ayup.

21:24

do you know what childhood ad-hoc rulemaking is ?

21:24

2+ param optimization is a punishment, not entertainment

21:25

usually takes the form of !Whine that's not fair!

21:25

wtf is it, a car design + racing contest

21:25

why not also singing.

21:25

and then a rule is added to the set.

21:25

make'em sing

21:25

actually, it's also DRESSING

21:25

!#s chess boxing

21:25

6 results for "chess boxing", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=chess%20boxing

21:25

it is after all sexual competition. gotta be fast, cool and sharp!

21:26

(ftr, what teh lordship usually catcalls as your "Goalpost sliding" is really your most carnal aspect. you sound JUST like a woman when you do it.)

21:26

specifying detail != sliding

21:26

though may seem that way to fuzzy thinkers

21:30

well now that all depends.

21:31

i'd like it not to be lost upstack, so will restate ftr : a 'optimized' rsa that no longer fits in head and is no longer demonstrably-correct , ( and worse yet, no longer operates branch-free ) is NOT RSA and is simply a turd being fraudulently passed off as the genuine article

21:31

though it may in majority of observed cases produce 'correct answer' to the naked eye

21:32

the essential point is that the two are NOT SAME mechanisms

21:32

how do you judge what fits in another's head ?

21:32

i can state with confidence that kochiana fits in NO head

21:32

nor ever will, or could

21:32

generally this is not an actual problem, 'but what of different heads'

21:33

a proper fits-in-head item fits in the literate man's head.

21:33

a tub of liquishit -- fits in none.

21:33

so you will have a gold-iridium head stored in paris ?

21:33

no such thing is contemplated

21:33

so then if joe claims the "Streamlined" rsa fits in his head, what do you do ?

21:34

if he ain't in l1, ignore, for starters.

21:34

and if he is ?

21:35

ask for proof of correctness.

21:35

which incidentally i am ready and willing to produce for every single piece of ffa to date.

21:35

and he produces a 12 page item.

21:36

which fits in SOME heads, liek galois' in 1800s or the fermat thing recently.

21:36

and speaking of fits, https://68.media.tumblr.com/037ffcaa5e3e7d3a5cdf07ba07d0628e/tumblr_nvmn0aRVcF1urdio6o1_1280.jpg

21:36

this is actually the situation with, e.g., fft mult

21:36

which is why we ain't using it.

21:37

arguably the jury's still out on what constitutes 'every literate man's head' capacity

21:38

but my aim is to write an rsa such that, yes, no one can be considered numerate if it does not fit in his head.

21:38

well, so as you see. complicated problem.

21:38

nuffin in there is any moar weighty than long division.

21:39

which until recently was hammered into every kid

21:40

incidentally this is why i oppose ellipticcurveism

21:40

it does not fit in my head, and i am not convinced that the folx who claim that it fits into theirs, ain't lying

21:41

and moreover i can never be convinced that they ain't lying TO ME

21:41

( unless and until i were to hammer it into MY head such that it wholly fits )

~ 22 minutes ~

22:04

yeah well.

22:06

incidentally in case it weren't obvious, much bloatier rsatrons than the one contemplated in ffa, fit in asciilifeform's head -- e.g. montgomery mult, barrett, various war crimes in that vein

22:07

but i specifically refuse'em because NOT ORTHOGONAL, they don't belong as part of a general-purpose numbertheoretical minimal 'crypto lego set'.

~ 35 minutes ~

22:42

<mircea_popescu> run of the mill pantsuit idiocy, but then suddenly "Es que en Rumanía todos se llaman Mircea Popescu. ¿Sabes?" << LOLOLOLOL

22:47

* asciilifeform goes 'wtf, THIS crackpottery of mine - you lot find interesting, but the stubborn boojum that keeps 'p' from happening, not interesting somehow ' << Everyone has strong opinions on materials

22:53

<mircea_popescu> superficially it seems like omfg lotta money ; but not so bad. people can afford to make eg icecube trays that retail for 3 bux ie cost a quarter each. how many of those sell ? 10k if you're lucky. << /me read as "lotto money"

~ 21 minutes ~

23:15

lol!

23:15

sov lotto

23:15