Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-07-08 | 2017-07-10 → ↓
00:03 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-09#1680872 << no, would among other things, have a standard for expressing structure metadata. see information_schema for a bad example in idiotlandia, or WSDLs for even worse, or...
00:03 a111 Logged on 2017-07-09 00:27 sina: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680865 << is it not such a task as serialization/deserialization? using such as http://www.cliki.net/serialization?
00:04 trinque worse still, index.html on your favorite website, and hurr durr XML hypertext.
00:05 trinque there, gopher wins against http in that it enforces a strict tree
00:06 * trinque meanders to a point
00:06 trinque can't just "this is how I answer" but also, "how do I ask", and "how do I know what I may ask"
00:11 trinque concretely, I would like to connect to your lisp instance from mine and be able to interrogate it for classes of objects it contains, for particular instances (i.e. there is a global notion of identity, global addressing, see threads on GNS), get instances which match some predicate...
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00:15 trinque "connect" too, is not quite right, as it would be a superior model for me to huck a request to you, which ~maybe~ you get, and which ~maybe~ you drop on the floor at wire speed, and maybe you huck me something back, if you want.
00:18 trinque why huck just to me either, can turn on the luby hose and let multiple folks drink together, when they have the same question
00:18 trinque !#s luby
00:18 a111 29 results for "luby", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=luby
00:21 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680383 << suppose yourself wandering said wasteland with intermittent network access, "connections" and "request/response cycle" become nonsense
00:21 a111 Logged on 2017-07-08 00:17 sina: yes and it's understood, I'm not trying to make "gossipd for alfs dystopian future" just have some fun for me
00:22 trinque "concurrency" in the sense that you handle scads of independent requests for the same item, also complete nonsense.
00:25 trinque http://trilema.com/2016/the-next-generation/ << maybe you've got 5 minutes of hijacked vat reddit console before the maintenance bots come recycle the cylinder
~ 1 hours 22 minutes ~
01:48 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all
01:48 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 2544.82, vol: 4602.79560558 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 2512.918, vol: 2713.53486 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 2524.5, vol: 8817.7847669 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 2603.395587, vol: 5605.06310000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 2537.468, vol: 4239.07829148 | Volume-weighted last average: 2546.02907198
~ 17 minutes ~
02:05 deedbot http://qntra.net/2017/07/american-student-investor-lynched-in-greece/ << Qntra - American Student Investor Lynched In Greece
02:11 BingoBoingo " Huel‏ @gethuel Jun 19 A new concept in food - 100% vegan with protein, fatty acids, fiber and 27 essential vitamins and minerals​." << Poor naming. "Huel" is mostly known to USians as the name of the fat pickpocket on some "prestige" tv show.
~ 2 hours 24 minutes ~
04:36 mircea_popescu in other lulz, i took girl + car out on a survey of local brothels tonite.
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04:36 mircea_popescu trinque amusingly, candi does sort-of this, as a prototype of it.
04:46 mircea_popescu lol lynched to death. what other kinds are there, lynched to orgasm ?
~ 4 hours 33 minutes ~
09:20 deedbot http://deedbot.org/bundle-474587.txt
09:34 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-09#1680895 << funnily enough i no longer have a single pair of boxes that share same ram stick type..
09:34 a111 Logged on 2017-07-09 03:18 mircea_popescu: can take the ram from the crapple and put it in the pc or camera or w/e
09:41 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> lol lynched to death. what other kinds are there, lynched to orgasm ? << Well there's the incomplete version which is just a beating
09:41 shinohai Lynched to orgasm sounds like a great porn title though.
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09:49 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/77A608C9E8E669661E385E3D37E1C49C202D2030A0C1C7420B836A7DF98BAEC5 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1581...1763 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '220.232.177.163 (ssh-rsa key from 220.232.177.163 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (ns4.tech-trans.com. HK)
09:49 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/77A608C9E8E669661E385E3D37E1C49C202D2030A0C1C7420B836A7DF98BAEC5 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1563...7053 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '220.232.177.163 (ssh-rsa key from 220.232.177.163 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (ns4.tech-trans.com. HK)
~ 16 minutes ~
10:06 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/EAAD960E39D6A2656C6592726A1653EDC9C3E18C3F105066FFC49E6B78D1F241 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1725...8659 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '91.201.55.51 (ssh-rsa key from 91.201.55.51 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (u2229.netangels.ru. RU)
10:06 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/EAAD960E39D6A2656C6592726A1653EDC9C3E18C3F105066FFC49E6B78D1F241 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1717...5907 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '91.201.55.51 (ssh-rsa key from 91.201.55.51 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (u2229.netangels.ru. RU)
~ 1 hours 17 minutes ~
11:23 asciilifeform ^ ООО «Уралприбор» -- 'Общество с ограниченной ответственностью "Новоуральский приборный завод" - многопрофильное предприятие с мощным производственным и кадровым потенциалом. В составе завода есть Специальное конструкторско-технологич
11:23 asciilifeform еское управление (СКТУ), занимающееся разработкой приборов технологического контроля, аварийной защиты, технических средств и автоматизированных систем управления, электроснабжения предприятий разделительных производств и атомных эл
11:23 asciilifeform ектростанций.'
11:24 asciilifeform i.e. ROSATOM.
11:24 asciilifeform peculiarly, not updated since '15
~ 21 minutes ~
11:45 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680544 << nope, in fact my "optimized" one i.e. the version where cmucl doesn't complain about unknown types with (speed 3) (safety 0), is about twice as slow as Go version. i'm curious why that would be the case, but haven't had a chance to investigate.
11:45 a111 Logged on 2017-07-08 02:18 sina: did you make a lispy one go faster?
11:47 phf in vaguely related annoyances screw/half-screw i*POS is the likeliest candidate for overflows, and it does where your fixnum is 32 bit. go version sidesteps that issue by being 64-bit
11:47 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-09#1680903 << moreover fixing this in stone seems like a poorly understood prerequisite for both gossipd and bitcoin itself.
11:47 a111 Logged on 2017-07-09 04:11 trinque: concretely, I would like to connect to your lisp instance from mine and be able to interrogate it for classes of objects it contains, for particular instances (i.e. there is a global notion of identity, global addressing, see threads on GNS), get instances which match some predicate...
11:48 mircea_popescu what "bitcoin nodes" currently do is a very shitty attempt at just this. and they are as autonomous as you are conical, also because they fail to correctly implement this.
11:48 phf which made me think that hashes are typically implemented in terms of machine words, so you don't have this kind of issues. fhf might be inherently "unoptimizable" since units that it operates on must be bignums
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11:48 mircea_popescu phf that was the intention at least.
11:50 mircea_popescu anyway, i'm very much convinced that the various "oh, it's the same thing really" bad choices hash designers and implementers make, very much typified by the above "machine word so as to '''elegantly''' avoid these problems" very much plays into nsa needs. it's again that same old convenience that makes the usg usg.
11:51 mircea_popescu somehow peeps got the idea it's "unfair", like little kids playing a game, to use computers in certain ways that expose them for being mere machines, rather than your girlfriend. such as making them do things like fhf.
11:51 phf presumably as asciilifeform keeps implying you could rewrite mp's fhf in some closed form that does account for these issues, but..
11:51 mircea_popescu i don't see a closed form. then again, it's new.
11:53 phf well, one thing that ascii said "don't operate at a byte level", might also be the reason why lisp version is slower. bit vectors are stores as octet arrays, so tweaking single bit pulls a whole octet, does bit twiddling on it, and then puts it back. presumably can be sped up if one were to figure out how to work over an octet at a time
11:53 phf *on a bit level
11:53 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-09#1680939 << actually it optimizes beautifully and needs 0 bignum anythings. but i've been holding back on spoiling this olympiad for phf et al
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11:53 a111 Logged on 2017-07-09 15:48 phf: which made me think that hashes are typically implemented in terms of machine words, so you don't have this kind of issues. fhf might be inherently "unoptimizable" since units that it operates on must be bignums
11:53 deedbot http://trilema.com/2017/the-loverape-relationship/ << Trilema - The love/rape relationship
11:53 phf asciilifeform: literally five lines lower in the logs
11:54 * asciilifeform reads..
11:54 phf well, there's no solution, just same thing you said :)
11:54 phf i haven't had time to do any of this
11:55 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-09#1680916 << have you been to ones in vienna?
11:55 a111 Logged on 2017-07-09 08:36 mircea_popescu: in other lulz, i took girl + car out on a survey of local brothels tonite.
11:55 mircea_popescu not same girl, not same car, but yeah, 20 years ago.
11:56 phf lotta "romanian" girls now, i.e. darker, gypsy looking ones. is that normal for romanian girls, or that sort of type is purely gypsies?
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11:56 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-09#1680923 << it does at that!
11:56 a111 Logged on 2017-07-09 13:41 shinohai: Lynched to orgasm sounds like a great porn title though.
11:56 mircea_popescu phf romanian girls look almost exactly like ukrainian girls. so is it normal for them to look turkish ? mnope.
11:57 phf right then, that's what i thought
11:57 mircea_popescu sure, the majority of ukrs are brunettes. romanians too. but the milky kind.
11:59 mircea_popescu also, there's not so much darker gypsy association. one of mah first youthful loves was this blonde horseriding gypsy girl from the danube delta. hot as hell, and about as dark as hillary clinton.
12:00 mircea_popescu i suspect gypsydom is a lot like brazildom. they dumped all the slaves in there, the results are rather varied, but strong contingent of fair brasileiras, even if lots and lots of mulattos.
12:03 mircea_popescu meanwhile in crumblandia, http://68.media.tumblr.com/338b84922777ea8da27086a07da01077/tumblr_ordlzd96P81uya9i0o1_1280.jpg
12:05 asciilifeform lol another python
12:05 mircea_popescu what, you object to big tits now ?
12:06 asciilifeform nah but comical when looks like chix will tip over if wind blows
12:06 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-09#1680947 << actually this is interesting, and i mean from a metaperspective. consider, randomly defined cult, they come up with some crankwagen, whatever it may be, say the mpfhf or the correct way rto diet or to cure cancer or w/e. at which point ranking member promises to come out with proof it's shit, and the result is ?
12:06 a111 Logged on 2017-07-09 15:53 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-09#1680939 << actually it optimizes beautifully and needs 0 bignum anythings. but i've been holding back on spoiling this olympiad for phf et al
12:07 mircea_popescu a) you know you're going to have a schism and b) you know nobody's going to manage to evaluate the claims, present or future, for any kind of coherent truth value.
12:07 mircea_popescu asciilifeform with those calves she's tipping you over.
12:07 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: possibly
12:08 mircea_popescu dun talk smack about the pole dancing and stilt wearing crowd until you greco-roman wrestle a coupla. they're NOT THAT EASY
12:08 phf cmucl has REMOTE and WIRE packages which let you do rpc between two instances (naturally it's bit rotted in the trunk, and only working version at this point is on my branch). it's a combination of simple "spin up server/connect to server", serializer/deserializer and an rpc convention.
12:08 mircea_popescu phf how does one node discover the other node's symbolic representation of the universe ?
12:09 mircea_popescu in a very harsh example : i somehow knew how to say "like ukr girls" above. i found this out somehow. how does the lisp instance find out what to say so it's meaningful ?
12:10 phf same as you would do it locally. it's a transparent rpc, not a specified one. so either the operator does manual discovery, or you define a discovery convention. (and then there's middle ground, where you use standard tooling, like code to list packages and symbols to do discovery for you)
12:10 mircea_popescu the point here being that what we need is the convention ; and it'd better be good.
12:10 mircea_popescu otherwise yes, metals conduct electricity tyvm.
12:11 asciilifeform colour me thick, but so far i have difficulty re what this is about
12:11 asciilifeform what convention is lacking, that is needed
12:12 phf well, right now we don't even have standardized wires (irc and http come closest in tmsr infra)
12:12 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you are running a computer. (not crap, an actual tmsr is happy with machine). when i start mine up, i want to get some bits from you. maybe it's "what sina said about mp on gossipd". maybe it's "the nth block in the current blockchain". maybe it's whatever it is. how does it do this ?
12:13 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: depends on the item, neh
12:13 mircea_popescu and don't tell me "by-hand optimized datastructs for each app and ad hoc protocols for each connection" if tyou will
12:13 mircea_popescu god damned.
12:13 asciilifeform ahahaha
12:13 mircea_popescu why not just make a datastruct polymorpher then, and have the program just come up with random shit each run
12:14 asciilifeform i dun get the fixation with 'universal db language for all walks of life'
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12:14 mircea_popescu mp's rule of computing design : if you know it's gonna be bad, take the trouble to make it actually horrible.
12:14 phf in the WIRE/REMOTE approach you connect to instance, and do a function call that the author told you about ahead of time. in one case it might (gossipd:all-message-since timestamp) in another (ben-vulpes-block-chainer:get-block n)
12:14 asciilifeform it adds mountain of complexity and in the end is still 'wrong tool for every job'
12:14 mircea_popescu asciilifeform let me explain the fixation to you then
12:14 mircea_popescu FITS IN HEAD MOTHERFUCKER
12:14 asciilifeform 'swiss army knives' suck
12:15 mircea_popescu you want me to sit here and say "there's fifty different protocols in this box" ?
12:15 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: except that the monster lang never fits in any head.
12:15 mircea_popescu phf you see the problem in ahead of time yes ?
12:15 mircea_popescu asciilifeform so make one that does!
12:15 asciilifeform certainly its implementation wont.
12:16 asciilifeform i'd enjoy being proven wrong about this. but don't expect.
12:17 phf mircea_popescu: i think you could design a pretty straightforward discovery protocol once you decided on the wire. we can see this process with irc bots here
12:17 mircea_popescu phf no, i ~know~. he doesn't expect, i don't expect either, but the difference is im being actively optimistic about it.
12:18 mircea_popescu the problem is again one of synthesis, someone gotta sit down and write that scary text. not the one to which there's nothing to add, but the one from which there's nothing left to remove. "here's how a discovery protocol goes".
12:19 phf (all-exposed-functionality) -> ((gossipd:all-message-since "give me all the gossipd message since a certain timestamp") ((timestamp fixnum "timestamp (in seconds since epoch) since which messages") ...))
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12:19 mircea_popescu yes but the problem is the ...
12:19 mircea_popescu gnsen dun work with ...
12:20 mircea_popescu and yes, thius could be done. like, toiday. and yes trinque 's irc bot could be expanded to be a proper connectivity point. and so on.
12:20 mircea_popescu vorwarts, to the uci!
12:22 phf i thought it would be kind of cool if bots could sling signed lisp strings in privmessages, 0ldsch001 scenetech!
12:22 mircea_popescu i don't see why they couldn't.
12:23 mircea_popescu if you recall the data exchange protocol was moving away from csv towards lispenstrings anyway.
12:23 mircea_popescu at least ben_vulpes was pushing it that way.
12:23 mircea_popescu and this is a mature question, ripe for the unburdening, not least of all because http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680788
12:23 a111 Logged on 2017-07-08 07:23 sina: mircea_popescu: I am guessing tmsr is not fond of things like JSON or YAML
12:24 mircea_popescu by the time newcomers start asking, the writ is on teh bathroom wall.
12:25 asciilifeform sexpr 4evah
12:29 phf note that common lisp's sexps are not an ideal data exchange format
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12:29 mircea_popescu and in other "i have no idea if alf will think this is a human face or no", http://68.media.tumblr.com/ec2b3b3a67382908205ac498e1fc22ab/tumblr_o84ox08CwI1uu3p4bo1_1280.jpg
12:33 phf (common lisp sexps are backed by a full blown reader, with multiple non-trivial dispatch macros, so for example '(1 #.(+ 1 1) 3) is a valid sexps that's read as '(1 2 3), i.e. (+ 1 1) is evaluated at read time. there's a dispatch for structs, like #S(FOO :A 1 :B 2) results in a structure foo with two slots a and b set to 1 and 2 respectively, but there's no corresponding constructor for classes. there's a reader for arrays, but that one doesn't let you
12:33 phf express the full range of possible array settings, etc.)
12:35 phf there's ISLISP standard, which was supposed to create a subset of multiple different lisps (like common lisp and scheme, but also eulisp, since designed by europeans). i don't think anyone (particularly sexp library authors for other languages) ever tried to conform to it. typical solution is to have a JSON-like subset of sexps, so that you can express (FOO "abc" 2), i.e. symbol, string, number and list and nothing else
12:36 mircea_popescu moreover im affraid sexpr doesn't actuallty separate data from code.
12:37 asciilifeform lol at least proper arse.
12:38 mircea_popescu phf your excited attempts at playiung with candi's ass, back when she was a virgin, is a plain and very obvious indication of what ~every lisp hacker knows but none dare admit, or think about. it's a fundamentally dirty language in that it doesn't, actually, admit there is even in principle differences between data and code. "oh, it's an array, and here's the associated macro, so this .dat file is actually turing complete". f
12:38 mircea_popescu or the same money it could be excel/emacs (for what is emacs but excel with built in virtual basic ?)
12:39 phf mircea_popescu: that whole data/code equivalence is one of the core (advertised) principles
12:40 mircea_popescu yes, but i don't want my number five to have the capacity to really be four.
12:40 mircea_popescu it's bad enough for my letters abx to have the capacity to really be smileyface or whatever. and i dun like that, either.
12:41 phf lisp has its own kind of trisector: a person whose mind is so blown by the whole code/data thing that he's convinced one can build "real AI" using a handful of self modifying macros
12:41 mircea_popescu in the end, here's mp's heresy : lisp never caught on for none of the usually discussed reasons. lisp never caught on because that core advertised principle is both fucking dumb and fucking useless.
12:41 asciilifeform phf: lenat being the patron saint of'em
12:43 phf mircea_popescu: well, in that case there's no value to lisp ~at all~, since the bulk of lisp advantage comes from this fact. but pretending that you somehow can get not-this with a turing machine results in what we have now
12:43 mircea_popescu no argument.
12:43 mircea_popescu nevertheless...
12:44 mircea_popescu i STILL don't want my number five to have the capacity to really be four.
12:44 asciilifeform and it still will.
12:44 mircea_popescu and this is fundamental and won'[t go away nor can it with money and reputations involved.
12:44 asciilifeform zip you or i can do about it.
12:44 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you got proof for this ?
12:44 phf i mean, any system can be tweaked into "number five to have the capacity to really be four". pretty much a standard exercise "oh tweak this memory location and now all your TRUEs are FALSE111"
12:44 mircea_popescu phf but that is, for the needs of this mental model, a broken machine. not broken data.
12:45 mircea_popescu the very possiblity of even having such a thing as "broken data", by eg naming your kid "-- DROP table students;" is why i agree with the sql sucks sentiment.
12:46 mircea_popescu everything sucks where there can be such a thing as "this is the table of possible inputs and these are the three that set it on fire".
12:46 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: actually i might have what you want ( supposing i correctly apprehend what you wanted. ) it was called 'harvard architecture', i even have a few here, it was once popular in single-chip fiddycent microcontrollers
12:46 phf can't you say the same about lisp? you establish your data format (i.e. a READTABLE that you're going to use for reading it), at which point modifications to that readtable makes for broken machine. the standard specifies how, e.g. number reader works, so if your readtable uses standard number reader 5 is 5
12:46 asciilifeform cpu gets 2 buses, 1 for code, read-only, 1 for data
12:46 asciilifeform (r/w)
12:46 mircea_popescu phf i don't know if you can or if you can't, not sufficiently experienced with the thing.
12:47 mircea_popescu but i can say you not merely should, but absolutely must. the cornerstone of wire protocol is a firm, protocol-derived guarantee of there being no such thing as bad data.
12:47 mircea_popescu asciilifeform this is not even a half-bad idea.
12:48 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it never caught on for large machines, i will leave the reason for this as an exercise for reader
12:48 mircea_popescu insufficiently insecure^H^H^H^H^H^Hfast ?
12:48 phf well, i brought up the whole mutability of readtable, because that fact usually trips up novices when dealing with lisp reader. "oh i can just use sexps for everything" and then you do (format ...) on your largish data structure and you get something that's rather non-trivial to parse (an example would be the WOT.sexp)
12:49 mircea_popescu phf and the reason for this is that it tries to take it as code.
12:49 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: makes program loading a bitch
12:49 mircea_popescu the best and handiest way to illustrate this folly is, "imagine if your vlc tried to mpfhf every film you played"
12:49 phf so if you want to use common lisp's readtable/printer for data interchange, you'd better ~specify~ what your sexp actually is
12:49 mircea_popescu asciilifeform exactly what i said!
12:49 mircea_popescu phf hence the earlier discussion.
12:49 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: not merely slow, but impossible, you gotta insert'em by hand
12:50 asciilifeform hence remains popular for micros where program is 1 rom
12:50 mircea_popescu asciilifeform hey, v is in the same direction.
12:50 phf mircea_popescu: well, sexp ~is~ code, primarily it's for writing your programs, not ~storing~ data. there's no such thing as sexp internally
12:50 mircea_popescu i need someone hacking on my bitcoin like i need someone feather-tickling my spleen.
12:50 mircea_popescu phf yeah, i get that.
12:51 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: y'know, even a traditional vonneumann processor can work with immutable code, if roms were actually still available on the market...
12:52 mircea_popescu but nevermind the processor for a second. the discussion here is data interchange.
12:52 * asciilifeform has searched, in vain, for otp rom in useful capacity for years nao
12:52 mircea_popescu the idea is to make the data stay that way.
12:52 phf most lisp rpc is done using serialization/deserialization protocols. personally, that is also my preferred method, something like asn.1 or the format cmucl's wire uses
12:53 mircea_popescu phf this is like saying "this website prevents xss by using base64".
12:53 phf wut
12:53 mircea_popescu if you;'re going to have adnotated data and the adnotations are macros and who the fuck knows what goes on, you've got a miserable protocol.
12:54 phf asn.1 is nothing of the kind, nor is cmucl's wire. it's your typically byte packed binary formats
12:55 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A1F787557922CA32F6C99077C06C1737A42D69F6F8692F20657A365B4B561A78 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1445...3093 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '217.153.101.178 (ssh-rsa key from 217.153.101.178 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown PL)
12:55 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A1F787557922CA32F6C99077C06C1737A42D69F6F8692F20657A365B4B561A78 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1760...3659 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '217.153.101.178 (ssh-rsa key from 217.153.101.178 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown PL)
12:55 mircea_popescu phf serialization can at best be a packaging. the issue is, can i say "here's a function that takes a parameter and outputs "your mom's a python" and the data payload is function(is that you daddy)" in order to convey the string "your mom's a python" ?
12:56 phf not with asn.1, because it's a serialization format, not actual RPC. you can certainly do the call with wire/remote, and no "macros" involved in the process
12:57 mircea_popescu for the curious : yes, i also have this problem in speech, especially when discussing complicated things with complicated women, and the solution THERE is the sort and short rule. which in relevant part says here that "(1 #.(+ 1 1) 3)" could NEVER be interpreted as "(+ 1 1)" because "(+ 1 1)" was a shorter statement of that and it wasn't used.
12:58 asciilifeform i thought the solution there was... chalkboard
12:58 mircea_popescu and moreover, and perhaps most importantly, "(+ 1 1)" is NEVER 2. because 2 is 2 and fuck you.
12:58 phf did you intentionally put #. or it just happened to be there? i think that you're looking at that sexp and you recognize its form, but #. is just some fluff?
12:58 mircea_popescu asciilifeform different sort of problem, that's for data entry this is for proper outputs.
12:59 mircea_popescu phf copied yours from above
12:59 mircea_popescu incorrectly, at that. '(1 #.(+ 1 1) 3)'
12:59 phf well, i put it there ~intentionally~
13:00 mircea_popescu did i misread the intention ?
13:00 phf well, the intent was to make this thing evaluate before the data structure is fully read.
13:01 mircea_popescu ah i thought you were just loading a parser spuriously.
13:01 mircea_popescu "o look, it also has #. in it, gotta load #.parser on top of + parser now".
13:02 phf like i said elsewhere, sexp is not a data exchange format, it's a way of writing common lisp code. various extensions are there to facilitate the process of programming. it's a folly to look at sexp and go "oh, so simple! lets just store our data in it! lets rpc with it too!" because that's not really what it's designed for
13:02 mircea_popescu alright. i thought that was actually on the table.
13:02 mircea_popescu seems folly to me also.
13:03 phf at least in lisp world (in symbolics source code anyway) rpc is done using your good old byte packing protocols. <count of integer><sizeof integer><integer><size of integer>....
13:03 phf so is serialization
13:03 mircea_popescu phf no bounds ?
13:03 phf depends on the protocol
13:03 mircea_popescu what happens if i do data like "1 byte|ff|2bytes|fff" ?
13:04 mircea_popescu im sorry,
13:04 mircea_popescu what happens if i do data like "1 byte|fff|2bytes|fff" ?
13:04 phf it was an example of what "byte packing protocol" is. designing proper byte packing protocol is left as an exercise to the reader
13:05 mircea_popescu i thought this was native and standard for lisp.
13:05 phf generally "things that might have different size" is not a trivial thing to pack. (that's why there's complexity in ASN.1, because of variable run length encodings)
13:06 mircea_popescu moreover, and here's where it gets biting : if we go with http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-09#1681006 ; which i expect we should, you can end up with implicit types. "you asked me for the 999999th bitcoin block, fucker". what about that ? you will need bounds adnotation yes ?
13:06 a111 Logged on 2017-07-09 16:19 phf: (all-exposed-functionality) -> ((gossipd:all-message-since "give me all the gossipd message since a certain timestamp") ((timestamp fixnum "timestamp (in seconds since epoch) since which messages") ...))
13:07 mircea_popescu so more like all-exposed-functionality) -> ((gossipd:all-message-since "give me all the gossipd message since a certain timestamp") ((timestamp fixnum positive "timestamp (in seconds since epoch) since which messages") ...))
13:07 phf well, wire/remote is cavalier with byte packing, it knows how to pack various sized types, but variable sized stuff is probably not the most bullet proof (i vaguely suspect it's similar to bitoind, i.e. <typetag><count><item><item>...
13:08 mircea_popescu myeah. well, no point in rehashing the suck.
13:08 phf i also doubt that's what we'll ultimately go to. wire/remote is tied to cmucl, and nobody's going to untie it
13:09 mircea_popescu but the problem becomes really complex when you consider "bitcoin block index" is as of right now "positive integer under 474974", and won't stay that way for long.
13:09 mircea_popescu and if asked for "bitcoin block", i do expect to be asked a number according to that exact type.
13:11 mircea_popescu or to put this belaboured thing in different words : if your data exchange protocol includes the concept of "error message", you do not in fact have a data exchange protocol.
13:11 mircea_popescu i don't care if it's a "gui" or a telex or whatever it may be.
13:12 phf arbitrarily sized numbers are a variable sized type. gotta figure out ~some~ way of packing them. you're essentially left with type tagged size variation (if a byte is 0, then next struct is 8byte, if a byte is 1, then next struct is 16byte), but at the end you still will end up falling back to "read this number to know how many bytes to read"
↖
13:12 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: this knot can be cut in exactly 2 ways - the 'ffa' and 'gmp', if you will
13:12 asciilifeform 'ascii vs ut8', etc
13:12 phf unless by decree you say that "numbers are packed in 64bit blobs"
13:12 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i suspect you're entirely correct.
13:12 asciilifeform either them numberz are fixed or not
13:13 asciilifeform tertium non datur
13:13 mircea_popescu phf i would be friendly to the notion of a machine word yes.
13:13 phf well, then you're basically in the whole "nobody's ever going to need more than 64bytes of block size!!1"
13:13 asciilifeform of rsa modulus size lol
13:13 mircea_popescu you said "64 bit blobs" not "single 64 bits"
13:14 mircea_popescu i am ok with chunks of machine word size, ie, quantify data by n bits rather than by 1 bit.
13:19 * phf afk
13:22 mircea_popescu http notably gets this half-right : there's no such thing as an error message the server ever expects to see from a client, such as i dunno, "this page has porn on it, unacceptable, send me another version" or whatever.
~ 2 hours 53 minutes ~
16:16 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-09#1680990 << do you not also get the fixation with "all citizens shall speak latin"
16:16 a111 Logged on 2017-07-09 16:14 asciilifeform: i dun get the fixation with 'universal db language for all walks of life'
16:16 trinque this goes right along with his "omg social skillz" thing
16:17 trinque blind spot right where one node talks to another
16:17 mircea_popescu somehow 8-bit bytes is standardizable, but this, no.
16:17 mircea_popescu yet obviously swiss-army knife wrong bitsize for every problem!
16:18 trinque nobody's asking you to compute in your home in $standardLang; fuck in perl and shit in brainfuck, but speak something civilized in public.
~ 20 minutes ~
16:38 asciilifeform trinque: if you're the hero who knows how to standardize $subj without birthing a microshitian shitfest - go, do.
16:39 asciilifeform imho if 9009 attempts at solution yield shitfests, problem - is ill-posed.
~ 21 minutes ~
17:01 ben_vulpes what's wrong with wsdl?!?
17:04 ben_vulpes whoreticultural trip report: ranier cherries are amazing this year
17:04 ben_vulpes rainier*
~ 36 minutes ~
17:41 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> dun talk smack about the pole dancing and stilt wearing crowd until you greco-roman wrestle a coupla. they're NOT THAT EASY << Original Sport!!!
17:42 mircea_popescu asciilifeform original engines were pretty derpy...
17:49 BingoBoingo http://trilema.com/2017/on-trisection-a-humble-contribution/#comment-122353 << alf did you miss the part where color is a cultural construct and mircea_popescu does it differently?
~ 21 minutes ~
18:10 mircea_popescu respect muh color diversities
~ 2 hours 12 minutes ~
20:23 mircea_popescu anwyay, perhaps best historical example of the "problem -- ill posed" bit is the history of the sewing machine.
20:28 mircea_popescu and re latin : it should be noted that it was by no means a maximally simple, or a maximally adequate-to-human-experience language. it was however ~correctly~ complicated, which to date is its foremost value.
20:28 mircea_popescu "if you're going to complicate -- complicate like latin, don't complicate like puritan society or any other barbarian non-people"
20:31 mircea_popescu in the same vein, the early 1900s investigations into the meaning and structure of number resulted in a correctly complicated notion, from riemann functions to cantor's sets and so on. this is at great variance with non-fields like "artificial intelligence" or say alf's favourite, postmodern qm (say string theory or w/e) -- which evidently are incorrectly complicated even if it's not always evident where exactly.
20:35 shinohai https://dayton.craigslist.org/sys/6201338395.html "you can always sell the bitcoin and buy ether."
20:35 shinohai (-_\)
20:36 mircea_popescu lol
~ 51 minutes ~
21:28 BingoBoingo Well, gotta remember post-modernism and "social justice" were the actual KGB/Soviet plot to undermine west
21:28 BingoBoingo Roosevelt just fertilized ground with his bully bullshit
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