Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-07-06 | 2017-07-08 → ↓
01:03 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/9EB8CD220CEE179362FCED1E03EAE1189209BA1BB060FC776B50744DED80C55E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1527...8493 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '150.145.58.11 (ssh-rsa key from 150.145.58.11 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (clock.le.imm.cnr.it. IT)
01:03 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/9EB8CD220CEE179362FCED1E03EAE1189209BA1BB060FC776B50744DED80C55E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1634...0927 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '150.145.58.11 (ssh-rsa key from 150.145.58.11 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (clock.le.imm.cnr.it. IT)
~ 6 hours 18 minutes ~
07:22 sina evening tmsr
07:22 sina asciilifeform: curious about your thoughts on https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/
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07:26 * shinohai can almost hear asciilifeform saying "GNU crapolade!!!!!!" right nao ....
07:39 sina hi shinohai :)
~ 2 hours 48 minutes ~
10:28 mod6 mornin'
~ 17 minutes ~
10:45 mircea_popescu hey sina. how's tricks
10:58 * mircea_popescu re-reads drag discussion from yest, realises it is a very fundamental process at the root of socialist empire. consider what happened :
11:00 mircea_popescu reasonably bright, diligent fellow, who also happens to http://trilema.com/2016/please-stop-using-dns-already-and-other-considerations/#selection-711.0-711.610 ended up believing himself 1. NOT in a position to evaluate a claim as to distance because he "can not calculate drag from the human body" ; and then consequently 2. ACCEPT some wikitardation as legitimate on the basis that a) he's impotent (as demonstrated by his cont
11:00 mircea_popescu act with entirely irrelevany complicacy) and b) they're "many", which obviously matters. that they're many ~sybils~ does not matter, for reasons unexplained.
11:02 mircea_popescu now THIS is what we mean by "learned helplessness" in each and every single instance where that term of art is used. guy who could, and on the basis of having passed into 9th grade somehow SHOULD, evaluate a claim as to factuality, accuracy, correctness etcetera fails to do so. the failure is not organic but psychogenic. the replacement of sanity with socialistard blather follows from this, because you know, gotta say somethi
11:02 mircea_popescu ng, so let's discuss the differences between signal and telegram, trump and hilarity, two cans of pepsi.
11:03 mircea_popescu this pretty much sits at the core of the whole dispute. by "fit in head" tmsr simply means "do not engage irrelevant complicacy". complicacy serves as a term of art here, to denote things that are constructively complicated, as opposed to the naturally complicated. what your woman means when she speaks is complicated ; but marriage is complicacy.
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11:06 mircea_popescu this is not said once, but multiple times and in multiple aspects ( take http://trilema.com/2014/how-to-deal-with-pseudoscience/ for instance, or phf's comment re cyphercomms, or tons and tons of others), and it all comes to the same root : IF you engage irrelevancy, you will arrive at wrong results. IF you engage irrelevant complicacy, you will arive at an unwarranted misjudgement of yourself -- you will think yourself impot
11:06 mircea_popescu ent. this is not humility, but psychosis, and of the saddest kind. you CAN actually MAKE yourself impotent by insisting with it -- and it works equally well with erections as with thoughts.
11:07 mircea_popescu whenever i write fiction about rando anglotard gleefully jumping into a steel cock cage the usual gleeful anglotard response is that "he just dun understand what could possibly possess dude in story to behave thusly". nevertheless, when presented with the exact, point-by-point equivalent for their head, they without exception jump right in, which creates the very strange yet picturesque situation where a buncha doods with ste
11:07 mircea_popescu el headcages wonder why would a literary character stick one on his dick.
11:09 mircea_popescu meanwhile on the other side, what the chumpmasters are doing is simply create and inject irrelevant complicacy. people discussing splat distance ? let's talk about drag. it is a 0.1% factor at the most, so let's discuss it. people wanna pick a president ? let's find out who said nigger more times. this matters, to 0.1% or below, so let's focus on that. etcetera and forever, and amusingly enough they replicate it.
11:09 mircea_popescu no fucking idea as of yet why or how that works, but they DO replicate it.
11:10 mircea_popescu in any case - i can't calculate drag from human body either, nor can anyone else. there's a reason for both http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-19#567906 and wind tunnels irl : it's a measured, not calculated.
11:10 a111 Logged on 2014-03-19 19:04 asciilifeform: and, finally, his moment arrived! von Kármán surrendered his orange ticket, took a deep breath, and said, "God, explain turbulence." Theodore von Kármán spent the rest of eternity burning in Hell.'
11:15 mircea_popescu (and (on the basis of (having passed into 9th grade somehow)) SHOULD)
11:15 mircea_popescu holy shit ima end up writing lispex.
11:16 * shinohai checks to see if it evals ....
11:16 mircea_popescu lol
11:24 mircea_popescu just think that somehow "race" is a legitimate topic of conversation in a country undergoing full economic collapse where black people are 12% by headcount and 5% if that by capital.
11:24 mircea_popescu i dunno what could be more irrelevant to the united states than the fate of blacks these days, but hey. maybe russian spies.
11:25 mircea_popescu campus rape, cyberpedos, whatever moral panics.
11:26 mircea_popescu and yet -- the thing with blacks is complicated. the economic situation -- not.
11:27 mircea_popescu the matter of disciplining the us population into 90% consumption cuts and 50% productivity gains over the next three to five years is not even vaguely contemplated, amusingly enough.
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11:27 mircea_popescu at least the argentards had this in their press, back in 2014, editorials and shit about how "the international neocapitalists" try to make them work moar and waste less, and how THEY ARE ORGANIZED AND WILL RESIST!!1
11:27 mod6 too easy to ctrl+p
11:28 mircea_popescu mod6 i think the matter is more, 3rd world understands it is shit, looks up to eu, us, whatever. small brother syndrome. whereas us misperceives itself as civilised, which it isn't nor ever was, and top of teh pile, so couldn't possibly be anyhone to look up to (except of course france, but we dun like to talk about that, liberty fries ha-ha!)
11:29 mircea_popescu anyway -- younger siblings never hit the bottle QUITE like the eldest son.
11:29 mod6 ah, fair enough
11:30 mircea_popescu that's why if you have boys it's always a great idea to have two. the first fucking up comes with an almost certainty the 2nd will come out alright.
11:32 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> at least the argentards had this in their press, back in 2014, editorials and shit about how "the international neocapitalists" try to make them work moar and waste less, and how THEY ARE ORGANIZED AND WILL RESIST!!1 << Prolly wouldn't make it past typical US head plugs
11:32 mircea_popescu im sure.
11:32 * mircea_popescu goes to dig out that article, it was a riot.
11:44 BingoBoingo The ones who do realize may have the wrong reaction (build a bunker, stockpile canned goods) but they exist on the Trump voting part of the US-sorting
11:48 BingoBoingo Part of pantsuit voter's induction to voting pantisuit is the infection with belief they CAN'T be made to do anything.
11:49 BingoBoingo Hence, the 1200 gender-disabilities on campus that all need "reasonable accomodations" during exams
11:59 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-07#1680023 << 'guile' is a steaming pile of shit
11:59 a111 Logged on 2017-07-07 11:22 sina: asciilifeform: curious about your thoughts on https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/
11:59 mircea_popescu well, google dun have it, because nobody gives a shit about the anglotards, and for good reason. but here it is :
11:59 mircea_popescu la globalizacion financiera, la deuda ilegitima y el nuevo curso, by jorge muracciole, "sociologo" no less (tiempo argentino, #1487, june 30 2014, page 24)
11:59 mircea_popescu dias despues de la implosion de la convertibilidad, a pesar del marasmo economico, el hartazgo social y la crisis de conduccion politica, tres ideas diferenciadas campeaban en las cabezas de los devaluados referentes politicos que habian sobrevivido de la debacle economica politica y social mas profunda de las ultimas decadas.
11:59 mircea_popescu los referentes de la derecha liberal estaban dispuestos utopicamente a reincidir en las recetas ajustistas y, amparados por la emergencia, apostaban a implementar el disciplinamiento social, aprovechandose de los elevados indices de desocupacion, sin privarse de la variante represiva en caso que fuera necesario. esos intentos fueron derrotados en las calles con la movilizacion callejera, y en las urnas con el abandono de la c
11:59 mircea_popescu andidatura en segunda vuelta del maximo exponente del 'neoliberalismo-peronista' en el otono de 2003.
12:00 asciilifeform marasmo economico << lol
12:00 mircea_popescu on it goes in that vein, and you should see what a barely literate "diputado nacional" by the name eduardo "wado" de pedro had to say.
12:00 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F3863F4DD4389CA8A3A883920C064484A76114DE2A4C11C1418217EE6BCEC912 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1355...4549 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '212.127.69.33 (ssh-rsa key from 212.127.69.33 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown PL DS)
12:00 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F3863F4DD4389CA8A3A883920C064484A76114DE2A4C11C1418217EE6BCEC912 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1381...3877 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '212.127.69.33 (ssh-rsa key from 212.127.69.33 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown PL DS)
12:00 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i certify the term is apt. i have NEVER seen a country in worse economic shit, including 1980s kazakhstan.
12:01 asciilifeform http://212.127.69.33/contact << lel
12:01 asciilifeform jeszcze polska ne zginela !
12:02 mircea_popescu to briefly revisit http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-07#1680050 : the fact that us cattlehead consumption power dropped about 80% in the past three decades (ie, since the 80s, ie since http://trilema.com/2015/other-peoples-money/ or in other words since the political decision was made to simply give up, lay down and die) is ALSO remarkably absent from the fanfics.
12:02 a111 Logged on 2017-07-07 15:27 mircea_popescu: the matter of disciplining the us population into 90% consumption cuts and 50% productivity gains over the next three to five years is not even vaguely contemplated, amusingly enough.
12:04 asciilifeform moar than 80 % if you count the children they ain't having
12:04 mircea_popescu very true.
12:08 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-07#1680050 << why would the frog boiler chef publicly discuss, to the frogs, the subject of their preparation ?
12:08 a111 Logged on 2017-07-07 15:27 mircea_popescu: the matter of disciplining the us population into 90% consumption cuts and 50% productivity gains over the next three to five years is not even vaguely contemplated, amusingly enough.
12:09 asciilifeform will instead discuss anything, ANYTHING else.
12:09 mircea_popescu it pretends to be a state
12:09 mircea_popescu you know, like argentina. "the debt dispute is very debalanced,. becayuse it opposes a tiny group of vulture capialists to a NATIONAL STATE!!!"
12:13 asciilifeform didn't mircea_popescu have an article re greece, where, 'if idiot throws money into a toilet, he is doubly idiotic for expecting to see it again' or how did it go.
12:13 mircea_popescu you understand trhis is where apple's "offsore" "could buy russia" stash is, right ?
12:13 asciilifeform argentina?!
12:13 mircea_popescu "investments"
12:13 asciilifeform or the greek eu credit
12:13 asciilifeform ah
12:14 asciilifeform same nonsense as the 'mortgage assets' locally
12:14 mircea_popescu exactly same
12:15 asciilifeform !!up gabriel_laddel_p
12:15 deedbot gabriel_laddel_p voiced for 30 minutes.
12:15 mircea_popescu turns out that ownership without ownership doth not work very well.
12:15 gabriel_laddel_p asciilifeform: got it.
12:15 gabriel_laddel_p Ty.
12:15 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel_p: yer welcome
12:15 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel_p: did it work for what you were doing ?
12:15 * asciilifeform sent the d00d an old lappy a while back
12:15 gabriel_laddel_p asciilifeform: remains to be seen. Have not yet compiled masamune for 32bit.
12:15 asciilifeform it's a 64
12:16 gabriel_laddel_p Odd. b/c my resucecd won't work unless using 32 bit kernel.
12:16 mircea_popescu strangely, i am not very shocked by the turn of this covnersation.
12:16 asciilifeform lol
12:17 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i sent g_l a surplus 'x61', complete with pen. not a bad box, though weathered
12:17 mircea_popescu i was here.
12:26 gabriel_laddel_p other AML news: If you send bountysource claims to a paypal whose name differs from your screename, the transaction will send, and then paypal will disappear the transaction from the history of the account you sent it to, and remove the funds + bountysource will not respond to emails regarding the matter.
12:26 asciilifeform wat's a bountysource
12:26 gabriel_laddel_p https://www.bountysource.com/
12:26 asciilifeform i take it, a /dev/null for money
12:27 asciilifeform lol, resembles ye olde 'rentacoder' scamatron
12:28 gabriel_laddel_p I found it to be quite usable until I ended up owing someone for money I'd already spent.
12:28 asciilifeform 'jcomeauictx wrote: getting started. sponsor: do you know that Bountysource hasn't been paying out escrowed funds to coders for several weeks now? I'm putting this on hold until I hear from Rappo about this. [2017-06-21T21:35:27PDT got my funds a few minutes ago. front burner again.]'
12:29 asciilifeform lulzy, complete with (presumably) partial payola to keep 'top' chumps stfu-ing
12:31 asciilifeform https://www.bountysource.com/people/19615-gabriel-laddel << gabriel_laddel_p -- yours ?
12:31 gabriel_laddel_p yep.
12:40 asciilifeform https://blog.codinghorror.com/can-you-really-rent-a-coder/ << see also
12:42 mircea_popescu tis hard out there for a pimp
12:42 mircea_popescu when he trynna make dat mony for da rent...
12:43 asciilifeform pretty sure d00d has problems but rent aint one
12:43 mircea_popescu 99 problems to be exact ?
12:43 asciilifeform ( lives in a corner of a university library , or somesuch )
12:43 asciilifeform 254 problems.
12:44 mircea_popescu did i tell the story of this art major chick who becoming homeless ended up living inside one of her creations ?
12:44 asciilifeform Hungerkünstler !
12:44 mircea_popescu either that or jonas. but anyway. tru story.
~ 46 minutes ~
13:31 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/E9B8C5178937E2E34273CC6EB1A94CE3254DCA5C3703E699FB9E0E11877D7877 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1691...2237 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '89.185.242.126 (ssh-rsa key from 89.185.242.126 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (cenda.apedia.com. CZ)
13:31 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/E9B8C5178937E2E34273CC6EB1A94CE3254DCA5C3703E699FB9E0E11877D7877 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1734...3457 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '89.185.242.126 (ssh-rsa key from 89.185.242.126 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (cenda.apedia.com. CZ)
13:32 asciilifeform http://www.e-ubytovani.eu ^ << jurov ?
13:34 mircea_popescu why ?
13:34 asciilifeform czechs
13:34 mircea_popescu iirc he's slovak
13:35 asciilifeform if i'm an ukr, he can be a czech, lel
13:35 mircea_popescu so wait, that makes it his website ?
13:35 asciilifeform lolno
13:35 asciilifeform just relevant!11
13:35 mircea_popescu to his being czech ?
13:35 asciilifeform aha. who knows, he might've seen it prior.
13:35 mircea_popescu i see!
13:36 asciilifeform mebbe it's the czechoslovak airbnb, etc.
13:36 mircea_popescu ima start doing this to you with whores working the wash dc conference circuit.
13:36 mircea_popescu "you know belinda ? the tall one with fake tits ?"
13:36 asciilifeform lolgranted
13:36 trinque "hey trinque, I saw this guy with a big hat. you know him?"
13:36 mircea_popescu "did he spit tobacco ?"
13:40 * asciilifeform notices that OTHER side of glued shoe, has nao come apart
13:40 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> "you know belinda ? the tall one with fake tits ?" << lmao
13:40 mircea_popescu ikr?
13:46 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-07#1680033 << btw this brought back to mind http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-27#1648764, in that usglandia snuffs by way of environmental catastrophe folks who don't like the smell of complicacy.
13:46 a111 Logged on 2017-07-07 15:03 mircea_popescu: this pretty much sits at the core of the whole dispute. by "fit in head" tmsr simply means "do not engage irrelevant complicacy". complicacy serves as a term of art here, to denote things that are constructively complicated, as opposed to the naturally complicated. what your woman means when she speaks is complicated ; but marriage is complicacy.
13:46 a111 Logged on 2017-04-27 18:59 mircea_popescu: inb4 us medical profession wakes up to the sad fact that the raise in autism has nothing to do with ~organic~ causes. the kids just don't like the environment any, opt out.
13:47 mircea_popescu rather.
13:47 asciilifeform re 'opt out', there was a similar phenomenon visible in, e.g., auschwitz.
13:47 * trinque knows a bright young man who didn't say much until about 5yrs old; when he got old enough to judge his surroundings, blood rage.
13:48 trinque gives me a glimmer of optimism for "teh kids"
13:48 asciilifeform trinque: i knew a d00d who had to spend much time, money, to save his 5yo 'illicitly nontalking' son from 'speshul' school and forced dopings
13:48 mircea_popescu there's no papering over hell ; or there can never be a socialist solution to reality.
13:49 asciilifeform (kid would talk just fine at home. just not in the public hell)
13:49 mircea_popescu asciilifeform no. you know a dude who in preference of saving his kid, spent a lot of time and money saving his allegiance to the socialist state.
13:49 mircea_popescu ticket to azerbaijan still $2k.
13:49 asciilifeform less
13:49 mircea_popescu well gotta take the kid also neh
13:49 asciilifeform tru!1
13:50 trinque I just told him he was right, and kid had a lot less cognitive dissonance to endure.
13:50 mircea_popescu but the important point -- contrary to the dood's own mendacious misrepresentation, the time and money was NOT spent on the kid.
13:52 asciilifeform this was indeed a fella who ( afaik ) had never left good ol' gringolandia
13:52 mircea_popescu gotta fix them symptoms and where's the dial glue.
13:52 * mircea_popescu is vaguely amusing at the whole ustardian faux-art... what shall we call it, it;s not a profession, how about community ?
13:53 mircea_popescu because nobody came up with the obvious idea of a lulzworkshop. clearly labeled "dial glue" and other such useful items.
13:53 asciilifeform where was that pic, of the menstruarium
13:53 mircea_popescu between the alaptarium and the leprosorium!
13:55 asciilifeform http://archive.is/lwgxZ << heeere we go.
13:56 mircea_popescu asciilifeform btw, in other lulz : ro for straightedge geometry tool is "echer". obviously from french equerre, but i always told people it's from escher.
13:56 asciilifeform lol!
13:56 mircea_popescu in fairness it fucking should be.
13:56 asciilifeform verily.
13:59 mircea_popescu but imagine, you know, an ancient all steel 8086 case, with a wired mouse on the right and a round metal box on the left, also wired in. box clearly labeled, "#@$!#", and inside, some dead bugs.
13:59 mircea_popescu wtf is art for even ?
14:00 mircea_popescu (the butt of this joke being "but listen, 8086 didn't have mice yet!" "nor bugs.")
14:01 mircea_popescu if they did that sort of shit, i could almost respect artists.
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14:02 mircea_popescu but irl, what passes for artists is randal mcfuckhead, what's his name, with the unviolated rights of opressed minorities.
14:03 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-07#1679877 << see also!
14:03 a111 Logged on 2017-07-07 01:28 asciilifeform: in practice, enthusiastic halfwits dun have much originality in their works.
14:03 mircea_popescu yeah
14:13 mircea_popescu anyway, between this "the vermin came later" 8086 installation, the bottle of dial glue, a pile of equerres labeled "a collection of eschers" and so on, there's just about enough for a collaborative exhibition. and yet...
14:22 * asciilifeform actually had a mouse with the 8086. serial port thing. marvelled at its uselessness
~ 34 minutes ~
14:56 mircea_popescu i had one too, wide 21 pin thing
14:57 asciilifeform aha, them!!
~ 17 minutes ~
15:14 mircea_popescu and with this, #trilema stands firmly entrenched at the forefront of anglo cultural space, and at a considerable distance from the rest of the troop, at that!\
15:19 mircea_popescu "It's an insoluble problem. Furthermore, I think most bug tracking systems fail us because they make us ask the wrong questions. They force you to pick a side. Hatfields vs. McCoys. Coke vs. Pepsi. Bug vs. Feature Request. It's a painful and arbitrary decision, because most of the time, it's both. There's no difference between a bug and a feature request from the user's perspective. If you want to do something with an applica
15:19 mircea_popescu tion (or website) and you can't do it because that feature isn't implemented -- how is that any different than not being able to do something due to an error message?"
15:19 mircea_popescu so jeff atwood is fucking retarded, basically.
15:25 mircea_popescu anyway, fuck him. let's wash the useemly americana out with some cosideration of the beauty of reasoned truth. so : pappus was this greek from alexandria who first documentedly observed that if given two sets of colinear points, then the intersections of the lines uniting them will also be colinear. the beauty is that this theorem holds in all projective planes built over fields, but does not hold in projective planes derived
15:25 mircea_popescu from a noncomutative division ring.
15:26 mircea_popescu in other words, there's a relation between comutativity and colinearity, of all things!
15:27 mircea_popescu and obviously, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-04#1679049
15:27 a111 Logged on 2017-07-04 14:12 asciilifeform: one hint -- look at 'screw' as a modular congruence
~ 37 minutes ~
16:05 jurov asciilifeform: never heard about e-ubytovani before
16:05 asciilifeform jurov: aite, ty
16:07 asciilifeform in other lulz re ye olde http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-03#1665150 >>> https://blog.regehr.org/archives/1520
16:07 a111 Logged on 2017-06-03 02:41 asciilifeform: you can't actually write a nontrivial c proggy without undefined behaviour.
16:07 asciilifeform ( tldr : folx continue to administer medicine to the corpse )
16:14 asciilifeform but meanwhile, from asciilifeform's 'vintage USEFUL material' file, http://programming.sirrida.de/bit_perm.html .
16:14 asciilifeform ^ mechanics of shuffles, Beneš networks, etc.
~ 2 hours 4 minutes ~
18:19 BingoBoingo !!Up EIC
18:19 deedbot EIC voiced for 30 minutes.
18:19 BingoBoingo Hello EIC
18:19 BingoBoingo Who is your daddy and what does he do?
~ 26 minutes ~
18:45 EIC hello all. my daddy's retired.
18:49 mircea_popescu heh
18:49 mircea_popescu !!up EIC
18:49 deedbot EIC voiced for 30 minutes.
18:50 mircea_popescu EIC ok, so how's taiwan and what brings you here ?
18:50 shinohai lol you scared him off!
18:50 mircea_popescu aww
18:52 mircea_popescu !!up EIC
18:52 deedbot EIC voiced for 30 minutes.
18:52 EIC i was checking out trilema.com. feels a lot like the anarplex.net approach. more active here.
18:52 mircea_popescu i never seen that one.
18:53 EIC worth checking out #Agora via tor. quiet, but similar thinking.
18:53 mircea_popescu and if one checks it not via tor ?
18:53 mircea_popescu oh this is a whol;e network ?
18:53 EIC i think there's a clearnet address, but no one really uses it.
18:53 EIC IRC.
18:53 mircea_popescu i'd use it, why not.
18:54 EIC it's inhabited by crypto-geeks sworn to absolute secrecy.
18:54 EIC that's about the main reason no one uses clearnet
18:54 EIC good folks, though.
18:54 mircea_popescu anarplex.net 6667 or are the internet dweebs sworn to absolute wankery also weird about their constants ?
18:55 EIC hold on...
18:55 EIC https://anarplex.net/
18:55 mircea_popescu yes but what port.
18:56 shinohai https://anarplex.net/agorairc/connect.html
18:56 shinohai ^
18:56 mircea_popescu a ty
18:56 phf dorknet
18:56 EIC 14716 clearnet, 6667 tor
18:56 shinohai "Connection is already encrypted by Tor, so do NOT enable additional SSL for the connection. " <<< lmao
18:56 EIC cfyfz6afpgfeirst.onion
18:56 mircea_popescu shinohai also weird re constants. 14716. anyway ima kiwiirc if any of the locals developed a taste for watching these
18:57 phf that's all i have really, it's 1am in vienna, and i know for a fact there's at least 3 parties going on right now, but i'm kind of beat and sort of thinking about going to sleep. is that how old age feels?
18:57 mircea_popescu phf not yet.
19:01 mircea_popescu EIC well, can't connect. i dunno, tell them if anyone cares and let me know when they get around to fixing it ?
19:01 EIC i'm connected, so it's working.
19:02 EIC not sure what's up.
19:02 EIC let me check on something...
19:02 mircea_popescu kiwiirc.com/client, server agora.anarplex.net port 14716
19:02 mircea_popescu does it werk ?
19:03 shinohai kiwi is fickle about ssl connections iirc
19:03 mircea_popescu it has a box, i didn't check it
19:05 deedbot http://trilema.com/2017/on-trisection-a-humble-contribution/ << Trilema - On trisection, a humble contribution
19:05 EIC maybe the expired certificate is causing problems with kiwi?
19:06 mircea_popescu no idea. let's see the other one, what was it
19:06 EIC here's a web client: https://anarplex.net/webirc/
19:06 mircea_popescu aty
19:06 mircea_popescu 404 ?
19:06 EIC cfyfz6afpgfeirst.onion:6667
19:07 mircea_popescu ayaya check out this crazy shit : https://anarplex.net/webirc 404s, but https://anarplex.net/webirc/ actually has a copy of freenode's old client. lessee
19:08 mircea_popescu alright, im in, coupla dozen ppl there
19:08 EIC yeah. old timers. cypherpunks and wanna-bees
19:08 mircea_popescu [19:07] == fhp [user@mynet0id.d0q.ejevp0.IP] has joined #agora << this text snippet has gone through seven proxies.
19:13 EIC bbiab
19:14 EIC i get the feeling this is a tight knit group...
19:15 mircea_popescu which ?
19:18 EIC not sure i can cleanly define a subset - too new still. just that feelin'
19:21 mircea_popescu you mean #trilema ? here's a part of the magnificent new tech of the republic : you too can be just as old as everyone, as soon as you get arouind to it!
↖
19:21 mircea_popescu there's logs! like http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-07#1680268
19:21 a111 Logged on 2017-07-07 23:21 mircea_popescu: you mean #trilema ? here's a part of the magnificent new tech of the republic : you too can be just as old as everyone, as soon as you get arouind to it!
19:21 EIC all it takes is time...
19:21 mircea_popescu they can be searched, and so on.
19:25 mircea_popescu !!up EIC
19:25 deedbot EIC voiced for 30 minutes.
19:25 mircea_popescu consider regiustering your key with deedbot so you can self voice
19:29 mircea_popescu EIC https://anarplex.net/hosted/files/secondrealm/blog_post.html << the obvious objections being that formally this reads just like yet another ustarded neoprotestant "i heard there's a world yesterday and here's how to fix it" tract, as so many before starting with abolitionism and aparently never endingly ; and fundamentally that "autonomy" is utterly naive. i do not permit autonomy my slavegirls, in the sense they don't ge
19:29 mircea_popescu t to "come up with their own reasons" as to whether they're studying basic arithmetics or not ; i DO permit them autonomy in the sense that if they bring me a dead body i'll get rid of it rather than you know, "report it to the police".
19:29 mircea_popescu this should be enough to illustrate why exactly the linked piece is yet another paradoxing trisection. though dudley would predict it won't work.
19:35 mircea_popescu anyway, to answer the original question, no. new people join all the time.
19:40 * asciilifeform read linked piece, maxed out anglotardism dosimeter
19:41 mircea_popescu tis hard out there for a pimp
19:41 asciilifeform and if i had a bitcent for every 'anarchist' pushing usg.tor...
19:42 mircea_popescu im not even sure why this would be relevant. i'm there on a web browser, nothing happened as of yet.
19:42 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: their www seems to be one of those 'onion to http converter' things
19:43 asciilifeform hence the snail speed
19:43 mircea_popescu ah, so like a catholic church where i take two whores in see through garb and they automagically and behind the scenes deck them in white veils, redo their hair to less brothely and sprinkle holyt water everywhere ?
19:44 mircea_popescu in truth, if that's how church went i'd have possibly even gone.
19:44 * mircea_popescu likes the idea
19:44 asciilifeform sumthinglikethis
19:44 mircea_popescu check it out, i've even officially been on tor nao.
19:45 mircea_popescu a most productive eveninfg
19:45 phf "Since we have had several downtimes of our clearnet gateways, all regular visitors are advised to bookmark the darknet addresses as well."
19:45 mircea_popescu phf are you intimating they're just letting me get addicted after which they'll reel me in ???
19:47 phf nah, just confirming asciilifeform
19:48 mircea_popescu aok then
19:48 phf i have shortage of snark
19:50 mircea_popescu mine reloads while i sleep.
19:50 phf but i take it the roots of these people is the weird california http://www.rawillumination.net/2011/02/interview-with-kevin-macardry-as-ive.html their author guy is interviewed by a robert anton wilson fanblog, and they are namedropping all the different things that were cool in the 80s
19:50 mircea_popescu i bought one of those "make snark while you sleep" things
19:51 mircea_popescu phf its actually both a pity and impenetrable to me, why exactly weird california never actually happy.
19:51 shinohai Snark-o-tron 9000
19:51 mircea_popescu happened*
19:51 mircea_popescu i mean, slightly weird but mostly unwashed seattle happened. wtf was wrong with california ?
19:51 mircea_popescu there was a once almost-worthy frisco-as-seen-by-crumb. where is it and wtf ate it and ???
19:52 phf mondo 2000, the proto valley crowd, i think we had the thread. basically, jwz.
↖ ↖
19:52 mircea_popescu porn valley took over the world. silicon valley did jack the fuck shit already. why ?
19:53 mircea_popescu and plox don't tell me "it's because your instruments are dirty, in factr apple could buy russia", as these discussions usually tend to go.
19:54 asciilifeform 'For the past decade I've been a professional agorist, still doing software but working on projects calculated to assist other livestock in getting off the farm as well.'
19:54 mircea_popescu :)
19:55 mircea_popescu i expect he lives in chile, amirite.
19:56 asciilifeform ' Well, in the early 2000s I did a secure webmail service which was hosted on Sealand. I've always considered that the control of money and payment systems was the linchpin of farm control mechanisms, so following that I became involved in the digital gold currency (DGC) industry. For the past several years I've been involved with a project related to the virtualization of stored value using cryptographically signed digital bearer cert
19:56 asciilifeform didjaknow!!
19:56 mircea_popescu this is getting sad.
19:56 asciilifeform 2011!!
19:56 mircea_popescu hiow did that go, "local mathematician scores near miss".
19:56 mircea_popescu i recall now why i recalled u dudley's piece so firmly. it was because the undescribably sad.
19:57 phf (check it, their second realm book starts out with TAZ in the subtitle, and that was the mondo 2000 thing, that we're going to build anarchist communes online. idiots, hakim bey came out and said very explicitly that the last chapter of TAZ where he ~speculated~ that internet might have a potential for TAZ was a mistake and to not please refer to your "cybercommunes" as TAZ'es anymore)
19:58 mircea_popescu death of the author, bish. he can't say anything, fanfic has established the epileptic trees!
19:59 asciilifeform TAZ >> '...Будь попрочнее старый таз, Длиннее был бы мой рассказ.' comes to mind for some reason.
19:59 mircea_popescu anyway, this existed in romania too, weirdly enough just about syncrhonously, early 90s. it was an incredible collection of chicks nobody would fuck with a hog's dick and really pedosmiled older dudes.
20:00 mircea_popescu was later an anchor to try and give blogging a bad name, decade later phenomenon.
20:00 mircea_popescu buncha tripod sites and such.
20:01 asciilifeform asciilifeform naively imagined that the sr-flavoured honeypot 'agora' would have perma-nuked the 'brand' of 'agorism'
20:01 mircea_popescu hello tightknittly brother sina
20:02 asciilifeform but apparently not
20:02 * sina waves
20:02 sina how all today
20:02 sina weekend!
20:02 sina such excite.
20:02 mircea_popescu we don't have weeks on this planet.
20:02 asciilifeform ^
20:02 sina y'all don't have nothin'
20:02 mircea_popescu asciilifeform aren;t you proud ? but well done, there's nothing more fulfilling than for man to achieve goal he sets for himself.
20:02 sina literally told me you don't believe in time!
20:03 mircea_popescu sina it's a "sleep ad libitum" joke.
20:03 sina :D
20:03 asciilifeform sina: see logs
20:03 sina mircea_popescu: you wanna play with this gossipthing yet?! otherwise I'
20:03 sina 'ma tear down the shithost
20:04 mircea_popescu sina honestly i kinda got the tech stuff i wanted to see already, but let's do one so it actually works and there's a "first line exchanged through prototype".
20:04 sina yeah cool that's pretty much what I thought after yoru comments re sqlite/rsa being the main things needing changifying
20:05 mircea_popescu sina ok so, paste the commands again if you will ? i'm logged.
20:06 sina mircea_popescu: ssh root@45.77.66.53 in two windows, one 'gossipd'. other 'gossipc --send-message --source whoever --message whatever' and then 'gossipc -g' to view msgs
20:07 mircea_popescu 2017-07-08 00:06:57|delivered_by:self|sender:urmom|ugachuga
20:07 mircea_popescu 2017-07-08 00:06:58|delivered_by:sina|sender:sinatron|hello worl
20:07 mircea_popescu this has all the makings of cool!
20:08 sina bam!
20:08 phf now we also are cypherpunks!
20:08 sina as you can see in the gossipc stdout, it's all RSA, stateless whatever style
20:08 mircea_popescu win
20:09 sina anyway, if youre happy with that generally as a "first draft" I am keen to refine incrementally
20:09 mircea_popescu i would say i'm quite happy, actually. as far as the user end is concerned this could work just fine.
20:09 mircea_popescu term coloring scheme and you're home.
20:10 sina but again, disclaimer, am not doing this to infiltrate tmsr with shitlang, as asciilifeform seems concerned, just for my own fun!
20:10 mircea_popescu cutting the "irc client" out of the loop altogether, which is a definite plus.
20:10 asciilifeform aside from the triviality of deriving the privkey remotely..
20:10 sina if you like it too, that makes me happy
20:10 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yeah, the back end needs work. the frontend tho, actually passes.
20:10 sina asciilifeform: it is designed to easily rip/replace the RSA and other componenty bits easily
20:11 sina and once all components are happy, can be rewrote in a not shitlang
20:11 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i also dun see why not irc-driven. protocol fits on index card, and no need to write it again with shoestring and dead squirrel
20:11 mircea_popescu asciilifeform because terminal uber alles.
20:11 asciilifeform my irc lives in terminal
20:11 asciilifeform and logs, tabcompletes, etc
20:12 asciilifeform all of this is necessary .
20:12 mircea_popescu so you don't have a proper irc client then. see ? i said irc CLIENT. protocol can stay, i see no prob there
20:12 mircea_popescu !~google mirc
20:12 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: mIRC : Internet Relay Chat client: <http://www.mirc.com/>; mIRC - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIRC>; mIRC - Free download and software reviews - CNET Download.com: <http://download.cnet.com/mIRC/3000-2150_4-10001733.html>
20:12 asciilifeform winblows lol
20:12 sina asciilifeform: I do like that idea
20:12 sina here's why
20:13 sina in the gossipthing I made, the transport layer is tied to the encryption layer
20:13 sina although it could be decoupled somewhat
20:13 sina in irctron, you can login to a remote node and keep your privkey operations local
20:14 sina as it currently sits with deedbot, I currently don't, but can, run my irc connection on compartmented box away from gpg
20:14 asciilifeform sina: no remote traffic via irc contemplated at any point in the gossipd threads
20:14 phf i suspect the thinking is that you'll be running a local instance of gossipd, to which you connect over irc, so its main interface is some subset of irc (kind of how bouncers or bitlbee do it)
20:14 asciilifeform only as local loop
20:14 asciilifeform phf has it
20:14 sina that is also good
20:15 sina ok, thanks for validating mircea_popescu, tearing down the shithost
20:17 asciilifeform sina: the reason why i am not particularly hot&bothered, is that your prototype does not contain any of the parts that comprise 99+% of the necessary work of an adult gossipd
↖
20:17 sina yes and it's understood, I'm not trying to make "gossipd for alfs dystopian future" just have some fun for me
↖
20:18 asciilifeform future lol
20:19 sina btw asciilifeform thanks for checking out guix, I thought you might be interested after reading old logs of you complaining re ripping dbus out of emacs
20:19 asciilifeform sina: you might be aware, i run a public box that displays a couplea newly-broken rsa keys ~daily
20:20 asciilifeform all of the, had one thing in common
20:20 sina I am
20:20 asciilifeform i.e. made by folx who 'eh what do i care about alfs dystopian futures' etc
20:20 sina yeah but I am not making this software and saying you sould use it for serious, or even any, thing
20:21 asciilifeform out of curiosity, why didja make it
20:21 asciilifeform vs something else
20:21 sina saw spec on trilema, seemed interesting, why not
20:21 sina same for mpfhf
20:22 sina most "something elses" don't meet my "seemed interesting" criteria
20:22 asciilifeform sina: what are some somethingelses that met it in the past
20:22 asciilifeform ?
20:23 sina asciilifeform: feel free to check out my github :P
20:23 mircea_popescu asciilifeform here's the fact of the matter : if you had the drop-in rsa ready, he'd drop it in right now.
20:24 mircea_popescu sina go make a drop-in flatfile db replacement, so people can drop it in right now. there's a market, such as people who aren't happy mp-wp pulls in mysql.
20:24 sina it will be done!
20:24 mircea_popescu do it in v so eg ben_vulpes can just merge it in.
20:25 mircea_popescu and by now you're far far beyond "doing things for fun an' to learn" toylulz.
20:25 phf sina: i actually checked, and fwiw guix doesn't let you build emacs without dbus dependency. (in fact none of the odds and ends like svg, xml or alsa can be disabled without patching the package definition file)
20:25 sina phf: bam
20:26 mircea_popescu do we have a plain and rather complete statement, specific to dbus in teh logs ?
20:26 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: dropping it into a pyturd gives 0 useful result -- becomes nonconstanttime , potentially
20:26 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i dunno why you read a language in his scribblings, it really is just pseudocode.
20:26 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: dbus is a poetteringism
20:26 mircea_popescu you think mpfhf was in php ?
20:27 phf in fact only two ports systems i know that will do it out of the box is gentoo's one and homebrew
20:27 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i was looking more for a redo of phf 's very fine "xorg" speech.
20:27 asciilifeform aah. dun think we have an all-in-one yet
20:28 sina mircea_popescu: re pseudocode is exactly how I view it
20:28 sina bang it out, see if it sucks or not
20:28 mircea_popescu it's apparent.
20:28 sina I don't want to carve the stone first time
20:30 sina anyhooz, gentlemanz, off for some dumplings
20:30 sina shall return
20:31 mircea_popescu if the dood bangs out tmsr-db within the next coupla weeks, which fwis isn't exactly inconceivable, is anyone interesrted in making mp-wp switch from mysql/etc to it ?
20:31 sina ME
20:31 mircea_popescu aok
20:33 * asciilifeform doesn't particularly need a db in overflowlang or gcpauselang for anything. but perhaps somebody else does...
20:33 mircea_popescu what's wrong with c ?
20:34 asciilifeform y'mean overflowlang
20:34 mircea_popescu sina write it in ada, that'll really put a bee in his bonnet.
20:34 asciilifeform danglingpointerlang
20:34 sina trolling asciilifeform best done in lang like javascript
20:35 mircea_popescu nah. ada.
20:35 asciilifeform sina: trolling asciilifeform is actually pretty hard
20:35 mircea_popescu asciilifeform trolls don't care about how you feel, alfie. just how you sound.
20:35 asciilifeform i suppose
20:35 mircea_popescu trolling is always a 3rd party oriented performing art. you know, like porn.
20:36 mircea_popescu kin da why it offends the same people.
20:37 sina out forreal!
20:38 asciilifeform re db, imho general-purpose db (i.e. the kind that has query language) is a fundamentally misconceived idea. but we had this thread.
20:38 asciilifeform ( it adds a screamingly unwarranted runtime and nonfitsinhead complexity to just about any proggy )
↖
20:39 mircea_popescu i am deliberately toying with this gordian knot.
20:39 mircea_popescu "oh, but a db for each program will be unmaintainable" "good luck maintaining the feature lists of shared item then" etc
20:40 asciilifeform 'general purpose db' is the original 'dwim ai' nonsense, that imho was carried along to date on sheer laziness of programmers
20:41 asciilifeform 'omfg you mean i actually have to understand the mechanics of the problem, and craft an appropriate data structure !? atrocity! gimme sql'
20:41 mircea_popescu even as a prototyping item.
20:42 mircea_popescu "i don;t understant the mechanisms YET, give me a worktable. with clearly known knobsw on it."
20:42 asciilifeform sorta goes upstack, even. ease of prototyping has a cost.
20:42 mircea_popescu all your fg pics include a mysql implementation.
20:42 asciilifeform in that prototypes (e.g. bitcoin...) often end up used in battlefield
20:43 mircea_popescu its' the white shit in the background.
20:43 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: waiwat
20:43 mircea_popescu yes. that plastic bit with holes.
20:43 asciilifeform idungetit
20:43 mircea_popescu you don't ship fg with it, and so don't ship other things with it either.
20:43 mircea_popescu asciilifeform if you actually want to get it i'll formalize ?
20:43 asciilifeform yesplz
20:44 mircea_popescu a breadboard is, for electronic circuitry, exactly what a general purpose db is for programming.
↖
20:44 mircea_popescu it allows you support to set out all your shit and connect it as you want, and measure and decide how to package it.
20:44 mircea_popescu could be done in your hand, or else in your pants pocket while riding the subway. it'd be harder is all.
20:45 mircea_popescu it is sometimes practiced, and sometimes accepted, to ship circuits back and forth straight on their breadboard. this is entirely up to the people involved and not proper subject of legislation.
20:45 mircea_popescu but yes, it is quite unseemly.
20:47 asciilifeform breadboard aite
20:48 asciilifeform but imho a field where critical battlefield machinery turns out to routinely contain breadboard - has a problem.
20:49 mircea_popescu no argument there. but also -- an aesthetical discussion of breadboards will never result in their banishment from the workshop wtf.
20:49 asciilifeform i learned of the consequences of the sin, in the most painful way, by committing it.
20:49 mircea_popescu try doing any work without one for a laugh.
20:50 * mircea_popescu also, as young tyke, thought "wtf breadboard, useless shit takes more time to set up than it's worth new". then touched 120V a coupla times and grew wiser.
20:50 asciilifeform i suspect that the culprit is cheap cpu cycles. in msdos age, ~every proggy read/wrote wholly custom datastructures from/to disk
20:51 asciilifeform no 'db lib' for the most part, was inconceivable waste
20:51 mircea_popescu and in even earlier days -- most pessimum.
20:51 mircea_popescu optimizing compiler also inconceivable waste, mel didn't like its data positioning.
20:52 asciilifeform if an optimizing compiler is possible for your machine or lang, one, the other, or likely both, are broken.
20:52 mircea_popescu old meaning of the term, not modern.
20:53 asciilifeform ( see also my old http://www.loper-os.org/?p=46 )
20:54 asciilifeform is mel is the fella from the old poem, who 'we buried him face down, nine-edge first' ?
20:55 mircea_popescu !~google ROAR lgp-30
20:55 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: LGP - 30 - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGP-30>; LGP - 30 - Ed Thelen's Nike Missile Web Site: <http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/lgp-30.html>; Librascope LGP - 30 - CHM Revolution - Computer History Museum: <http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/early-computer-companies/5/116>
20:55 phf asciilifeform: the story of mel?
20:55 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the guy with the drum.
20:55 asciilifeform phf: is the only one i know of, yes
20:59 mircea_popescu i suppose it's actually my bad, they called it optimizing assembler back then for some reason.
21:01 asciilifeform recall http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-21#1673190 ?
21:01 a111 Logged on 2017-06-21 17:05 asciilifeform: doing FIVE ( yes, it's five ) machine muls, in there, and 5 machine adds ( instead of motherfucking ZERO ) JUST TO GET THE UPPER WORD of word*word mul, is not.
21:01 mircea_popescu aha?
21:03 asciilifeform compilers for braindamaged archs ( i.e. all extant archs ) are rather 'socialism' flavoured, in that you're stuck forcing 'unprincipled exceptions' (inline asm) if you want to use anything close to the iron's full capacity
21:04 mircea_popescu back in msdos days it was int21 and etc for ... video iron's full capacity.
21:04 asciilifeform y'mean ~not~ int21
21:04 asciilifeform but rather direct writes
21:04 mircea_popescu i guess i do lol
21:05 mircea_popescu point being!
21:06 asciilifeform point being that there is an element of implicit lie, in the concept of the compiler.
21:06 mircea_popescu and in the concept of computer.
21:06 asciilifeform the urbit thing was a cartoon-coloured extreme illustration of this.
21:06 mircea_popescu ha! it was at that.
21:07 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it is possible to form a realistic mental model, of computer per se. but far less so of 'optimizing' claptrap.
21:07 mircea_popescu guy is kinda predictable, his previous codebase was a cartoon-colored illustration of the impossibility of autodidacticism
21:07 asciilifeform waitasec, what previous codebase
21:07 mircea_popescu what was it called, the blog thing
21:07 asciilifeform aah ah
21:08 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the only mental model of computer per se would be "girlfriend".
21:08 * asciilifeform assumed 'code base' meant something mechanised
21:08 mircea_popescu asciilifeform and it was not ?
21:08 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the only accurate , useful model, is 'player piano'
21:08 asciilifeform not gurl wtfomfg
21:09 mircea_popescu ask around. decide(); and void think void etc, the writing's on the wall.
21:09 asciilifeform unless mircea_popescu has a very odd, martian meat comp
21:09 asciilifeform which reminds me... brb
21:09 mircea_popescu it is this thing which talks back to you. === girlfriend, are you kidding me ?
21:10 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> 2017-07-08 00:06:57|delivered_by:self|sender:urmom|ugachuga << lel @ this message, and it seems to work!
21:10 mircea_popescu so it does!
21:11 mircea_popescu the amusing part not yet picked up (i was expecting alf to jump) is that... it has inband encoding. "self" is a special word!
↖
21:11 mircea_popescu wut do ?
21:11 mod6 ah hmm.
21:13 phf pretty sure asciilifeform is actively ignoring the whole initiative, with only periodic pounces. as opposed to his older strategy of annihilating the whole thing upfront. must be getting old
↖
21:13 mircea_popescu you have a theory as to why ?
21:20 phf i think that it's mostly your works. his patterns are better known, there's been damping, etc.
21:21 mircea_popescu wait, what ? i dunno what you just said
21:21 phf well
21:22 mircea_popescu are you saying he switched from trying to annihilate it to being unhappy with it because it has managed to gather some apparent support with me ?
21:24 phf no, it's more like alfs rhetoric approach at some point was encouraged, where's now it seems to be recognized, and often treated with "oh it's just alf doing his thing".
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21:25 mircea_popescu hm.
21:37 phf or perhaps now that he has successfully served as the main driving force behind the tenets of tmsr technology and ensured that they are collectively accepted, he doesn't need to reaffirm them as much. but i also have wonder if the tenets have as much of a galvanizing effect now that we mostly had a chance to observe both their positive and negative effects?
21:38 phf *have to wonder
21:45 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/517E17312D55D1916D36F9CEF9C8022B875B9FEDEC8FA3F5175C8C4F676AC894 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1762...2773 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '58.215.78.96 (ssh-rsa key from 58.215.78.96 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown CN 32)
21:45 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/517E17312D55D1916D36F9CEF9C8022B875B9FEDEC8FA3F5175C8C4F676AC894 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1379...3483 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '58.215.78.96 (ssh-rsa key from 58.215.78.96 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown CN 32)
21:48 mod6 in this case, even the sina has said so himself, is a simple prototype. i find prototypes to be typically worth making. often there is something to be learned from them.
21:48 mircea_popescu im not sure which these tenets be
21:49 mod6 with btc, even if "prototype" was imho worth using in the battlefield. "you go to war with the army you have..." doesn't mean either that it can't be made better or replaced later.
21:50 mircea_popescu phf for my curiosiuty, list tenets and positive/negative effects ?
21:57 phf that's a tricky request, but the tenets are around shitlangs differentiation, "fits in head", v as a way of releasing code, what it means to own a piece of technology. there's a handful of threads that had definitive conclusions, that i consider tenets (i think the word should be in quotes to indicate that while not true tenets, violating them will require reopening large threads)
21:59 mircea_popescu yeah, whole line sounds a lot like baiting, but not at all my intention.
21:59 mircea_popescu just, work happens when prodded, and systematization is work like any other work.
22:00 phf ah, so it's a subtle "what tenets would that be? handy if you made a LIST of them here, eh!"
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22:00 mircea_popescu not even so subtle, but sure.
22:01 mircea_popescu certainly above qs could have been asked just as well by a noob, and vague "large threads" reference dun help him any.
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22:04 phf right, which is an existing problem
22:05 mircea_popescu and in other news, the logs stay about the same 500 lines they always are, but holy shit it seems somehow they get denser or what the fuck, it's unseemly.
22:05 mircea_popescu feels like headlifting three times the weight these days
22:05 mircea_popescu maybe it's just getting old.
22:06 mod6 i think it's highly interesting, but indeed, there's a lot of depth. sometimes takes a while to grok the threads. that's my own personal take. getting old, not for me anyway.
22:07 mircea_popescu mod6 i used to enjoy the luxury of multipass reads through the log. but it's under threat these days
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22:17 sina I return, temporarily
22:17 mircea_popescu as opposed to what, death ?
22:18 sina phf: :D
22:18 sina http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-05#1679215
22:18 a111 Logged on 2017-07-05 15:39 phf: sina: is that ^ a correct method?
22:18 sina did you make a lispy one go faster?
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22:21 sina http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680437 << why I used a db: because the spec said use flatfile, I first tried to implement flatfile one and after realising I would need to either shell out to utilities like "touch" and/or "find"/"ls" etc, or implement some of their functionality myself, I decided to import a library that does that stuff not terribly, called sqlite
22:21 a111 Logged on 2017-07-08 00:38 asciilifeform: ( it adds a screamingly unwarranted runtime and nonfitsinhead complexity to just about any proggy )
22:21 mircea_popescu sqlite seems to be the go-to around here.
22:21 sina otherwise, how update functionality like "last seen", or "fetch X messages since last seen"
22:22 sina and now if I want to do it in flatfile, gossipd code becomes gossipd + "sinas shitty db-less attempt"
22:23 mircea_popescu well you were looking for things to try.
22:23 mircea_popescu i don't know it has to be shitty, unless there's some other constraint, like "make it overnight"
22:24 sina imagine flatfile example of "assigning" generated key from "available" => "user" state, or "user" => "bogus" state, that's moving a keyfile from gossipd/keys/available to gossipd/keys/users/foo or similar action, now my program has to either invoke "mv" or write mv-like functionality into my app
22:24 mod6 mircea_popescu: re, logs, inline-pr0n helps too :D
22:25 mircea_popescu sina i don't get it ? make file with keys, make file with assignments. why mv ?
22:26 sina ok true, I didn't think of that
22:26 mircea_popescu this idea working as intended then.
22:27 mircea_popescu mod6 word eh. lessee what leggy we can fish out
22:27 mod6 yay!
22:28 sina mircea_popescu: but still even in that case I need to "walk" the list of assignments, looking for ^available, so I need to use grep or write a iterating-finder-thingo myself and then something like sed to change the line or write a text-changer-at-a-line myself
22:28 mircea_popescu in today's "bro, does she even lift?!?", http://68.media.tumblr.com/07cb6203aad968e0f035cacb3a1d5fa9/tumblr_mizikdktI41s4ukh7o3_1280.jpg
22:28 mircea_popescu sina or just you know, look into how to do btree and have a hash something ?
22:29 sina wat
22:29 mod6 lmao @pic
22:30 mircea_popescu sina you can implement your whatever as a binary tree, leverage the directory structure, and simply check if there's a file / write it.
22:31 mircea_popescu this locks into an older discvussion re bitcoin fs, which was iirc still stalled at perf-ing the various available fs thoroughly for massive directory/file usage.
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22:31 mircea_popescu and speaking of locks, http://68.media.tumblr.com/47ddf0e0d49eaf4cdafb9e5af8e0287b/tumblr_oo02vdxVUK1rat4opo2_500.gif
22:32 sina how does that related at all to the "make file with keys"
22:32 sina although I don't get that either now that I think about it, how does the "assignments" file know which key is which?
22:32 sina line numbers?
22:32 mod6 mircea_popescu: daang.
22:32 sina assignments file format = ??
22:33 sina mircea_popescu: I guess the gist of the question is really, how is implementing my own btree different at all to using the pretty much identical thing in sqlite
22:34 mod6 i gotta look at this code again here
22:34 mircea_popescu well, for you in that you get to say you did it (ie, have the experience), and for alf that he's not stuck importing ALL THE REST of sqlite.
22:35 sina and you contend the actual final implementation of such a thing will actually be less lines of a code than the existing thing
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22:35 mircea_popescu sina simple example and i don't pretend like this is useful : /assignments/0f0a.txt contains or does not contain "hurrdurr". by checking if it does you know hurrdurr is assigned to 0f0a.
22:36 mircea_popescu sina does sqlite have unicode support ? if it does, then it will necessarily be less lines of code.
22:36 sina always lol
22:36 sina I mean, all data is unicode AFAIK
22:36 sina except binary ofc
22:37 mircea_popescu right. well, here all data is ascii.
22:40 mircea_popescu mod6 there's a part two of our show : http://68.media.tumblr.com/949f80bdc5e21cf0d317e4f5b5a3b369/tumblr_oo02vdxVUK1rat4opo1_500.gif
22:41 mod6 nice!
22:42 sina ok going out again, will consider some more, but I do wonder
22:42 mircea_popescu not like you HAVE TO. twas a suggestion.
22:43 mod6 sina: sure, think on it for a bit. no rush.
22:46 mircea_popescu and in other real dollies, http://68.media.tumblr.com/a72431bb9683fd3181791b292e410b95/tumblr_oqv0v1DHGW1sd72xuo1_1280.jpg
22:50 mod6 looks like was taken on a proper ny roof
22:51 mircea_popescu nah, russian ho. "gizel"
22:51 mod6 ah
22:53 mod6 im ~starting~ to get the hang of this ada stuff.
22:55 mod6 as a way to teach it to myself, i've been poking around with a v impl.
22:56 mod6 not sure it'll ever see the light of day tho.
23:04 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> sina: trolling asciilifeform is actually pretty hard << Then why are the neighborhood's small mammals so successful with their verminating?
23:08 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680511 << partly it is that i'd like to do a fair share of keeping the snr high, by... ~not having same thread 9000 times~, see if perhaps the l0gz will do their bit and answer ' what does asciilifeform say to X ? ' q for those folx who have it
23:08 a111 Logged on 2017-07-08 01:13 phf: pretty sure asciilifeform is actively ignoring the whole initiative, with only periodic pounces. as opposed to his older strategy of annihilating the whole thing upfront. must be getting old
23:08 asciilifeform and partly in that i find the 'prototype' that solves 0 of the difficult problems, simply not interesting. i can write a perlism that pushes shitrsa packets over tcp etc. in half hour. but why.
23:09 asciilifeform ( and iirc i already explained this in agonizingly pedantic detail. but apparently the requisite lines in the l0gz are magically invisible..? or wut )
23:13 ben_vulpes > do not use * to mark line suppression
23:13 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680517 << this is quite a bit moar 'mean gurlz' than actually in play, phf. i dun give anything like the suggested amount of fuck. the educable - learn, the rest - will learn by pissing on the electric fence personally; or, when far too late, already having 'fucked the cousin' etc.
23:13 a111 Logged on 2017-07-08 01:24 phf: no, it's more like alfs rhetoric approach at some point was encouraged, where's now it seems to be recognized, and often treated with "oh it's just alf doing his thing".
23:14 ben_vulpes am i to take from this line in the od manpage that it doesn't actually output faithfully without extra flags?
23:14 mircea_popescu asciilifeform check it out, you're famous nao, being discussed in absentia.
23:14 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: ikr? i was having tea and saw l0gz and 'wtf'
23:14 mircea_popescu hey, happens to the best of us.
23:14 asciilifeform asciilifeform to pet : 'looksy here, they're meangurlzing'
23:15 mircea_popescu no such thing!
23:15 asciilifeform (term of art!11)
23:16 BingoBoingo Well, alf did recommend that film to rest of republic
23:16 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680530 << i actually attempted this , a coupla yrs ago, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=284
23:16 a111 Logged on 2017-07-08 02:00 phf: ah, so it's a subtle "what tenets would that be? handy if you made a LIST of them here, eh!"
23:17 mod6 lel 'meangurlzing'
23:18 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680532 << at one time we had a fella ( pete_dushenski ? ) embark on a 'major life and times of the l0g' thing. what became of this ?
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23:18 a111 Logged on 2017-07-08 02:01 mircea_popescu: certainly above qs could have been asked just as well by a noob, and vague "large threads" reference dun help him any.
23:18 ben_vulpes hodang hexdump does this as well
23:19 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680538 << there are times when i spend a whole day only reading the l0gz...
23:19 a111 Logged on 2017-07-08 02:07 mircea_popescu: mod6 i used to enjoy the luxury of multipass reads through the log. but it's under threat these days
23:19 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: hexdump -v -C
23:19 asciilifeform ( switches off the retardation )
23:19 mod6 yeah, i try never to get more than 1 day behind. and sometimes, i take long walks through the l0gs on various threads.
23:19 asciilifeform mod6: i was speaking of vintage logs, rather than backlog
23:20 mod6 ah, yeah, the "long walk"
23:20 mircea_popescu !!up ave1
23:20 deedbot ave1 voiced for 30 minutes.
23:21 asciilifeform i'll go ' this one time mircea_popescu and asciilifeform had mega-dispute about planar tilings, where was it... or did i dream it ' and 6 hrs later..
23:21 mod6 oh yeah, those are the hardest to track down. i find myself having to search for very specific words and hope i find it.
23:21 mod6 sometimes its a tmsr-ism like 'printolade'
23:21 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: yeah, found the flag at about the same time i discovered the idiocy
23:22 ben_vulpes "flag for disabling wtf, would you like?"
23:22 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: gotta love these
23:22 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: you could write an entire mega-essay re subj, they are legion
23:22 asciilifeform ( and again, but WHERE were the others..! )
23:22 ben_vulpes right?
23:22 asciilifeform somewhere, deep in the l0gz.
23:23 asciilifeform iirc it was pete_dushenski who compared to talmud.
23:23 asciilifeform i went and got hold of an actual talmud, to compare.
23:23 ben_vulpes basically unsafe to use unix tools without reading manpages exhaustively, and probably source to boot
23:23 mod6 and as far as pete_dushenski or whomevers quest to write a log digest or whatever, it never happened. the foundation briefly considered a role for gathering up trb related parts, but that was set aside in exchange for tb0t
23:23 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: talmud likely five hundred years to early of a comparison
23:23 asciilifeform notrly
23:23 asciilifeform shares some of the very same sharp edges
23:23 asciilifeform ( ~wholly unsorted and highly self-referential item )
23:24 asciilifeform mod6: aha, didn't think so
23:24 asciilifeform iirc everyone who offered to do the job, found that it was far 'more than could chew'
23:24 asciilifeform ( or less than his muscle could lift, take your pick )
23:25 ben_vulpes relatedly, i started rereading the old testament on "kindle" this year, have been missing proper talmud for whole sojurn
23:25 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: there's an ipnoje version etc.
23:26 ben_vulpes epub?
23:26 asciilifeform no, thing with concordance, search, multi-lang thing, etc
23:27 asciilifeform iirc there are ports to various pocket comp
23:27 ben_vulpes i did discover epub-scale sheikh pdfs recently
23:27 * asciilifeform not dedicated aficionado, ben_vulpes will have to dig for himself
23:27 ben_vulpes mm
23:27 mircea_popescu asciilifeform hey, the history of roman empire was attempted 500x, why should one fellow stop the rest.
23:27 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: https://www.sefaria.org
23:27 ben_vulpes sikh*
23:28 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: ( dare i presume that you want the englisch )
23:28 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: tru!!
23:29 ben_vulpes a reasonable daring, my patience for aramaic went the way of my patience for kanji etc
23:29 mircea_popescu mod6 problem with the very specific words is that often enough conversations are carried in wholly metaphorical terms.
23:29 ben_vulpes i have other exciting glyph monstrosities occupying my stack these days like unicode
23:29 mircea_popescu such as, we';re discussing cunts, but oohohohohobviously not rly.
23:29 mod6 for sure.
23:30 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680565 << it stalled at the discovery that 1) performance is abysmal 2) for wholly fundamental reasons ( of shit-poor rewritable data structures forced by 'generic fs' shape ) 3) all extant fs would have to be patched regardless to remove idiot node caps, and may as well write proper db from scratch that is bitcoin-shaped 5) asciilifeform then wrote the latter, in ada, and put on shelf, to pick up a
23:30 a111 Logged on 2017-07-08 02:31 mircea_popescu: this locks into an older discvussion re bitcoin fs, which was iirc still stalled at perf-ing the various available fs thoroughly for massive directory/file usage.
23:30 asciilifeform fter rsa
23:31 asciilifeform ( related lullies : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-08#1640488 )
23:31 a111 Logged on 2017-04-08 17:13 Framedragger: do you recall when you described the storage of nqb?
23:32 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i still didn't get what i'd call good numbers / a good measurement.
23:32 asciilifeform ^ where powerrangers immediately took what they could find in the l0gz and tried to use, like the savage finds the flashlight
23:32 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-15#1627811 << mine or the classic fsen ?
23:32 a111 Logged on 2017-03-15 23:46 asciilifeform: in unrelated noose, 'nqb' reads & parses a full 1MB block, with 2218 tx, and recreates it from fast-form, again to disk, in 0.123 sec. on a 3GHz opteron cum ssd.
23:33 asciilifeform ( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629439 << yet other thread re subj. )
23:33 a111 Logged on 2017-03-20 17:00 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629256 << even reiser is almost certainly waste of time, general-purpose fs is very sharply the opposite of what we want, they are all optimized for mutability (can delete/rename/resize/etc) and fast reads at the expense of slow entity creation, as well as carrying out silent rebalances/defrags/etc.
23:34 asciilifeform reiser is afaik the undisputed champ, if somebody still wants to experiment with classical fs.
23:35 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the classic fsen.
23:36 asciilifeform i'm already on record as having described, in agonizing detail, why it is a monumental waste of time, but if mircea_popescu et al not convinced -- welcome to 'piss on electric fence'
23:36 mircea_popescu there's nothing wrong with measuring the world around. an attempt to explain why this is a waste of time isn't really going to be entertained.
23:37 mircea_popescu it is fundamentally, and irrecoverably, flawed. measurements are the only basis of thought.
23:37 mircea_popescu and they will be redone forever.
23:37 asciilifeform imho best use of measurement, is to measure unknowns. rather than to try to determine, with ruler, how many degrees a triangle's internals add up to.
23:37 mircea_popescu this is not so.
23:37 mircea_popescu there's no "best use of measurement" for exact same reason there's no "wot best practices", or "ideal rng values"
23:38 asciilifeform there is the use of time, of which king and slave alike has finite qty. but i can only suggest to folx, how to use it. if they want to build perpetuum mobile to 'measure whether possible' -- or trisect angle -- let'em
23:39 asciilifeform imho some of the greatest discoveries were precisely of the 'this is a dead end, don't burn your life on this' type.
23:39 mircea_popescu geting hard numbers on file system performance, something everyone involved in data storage for the past 30 years has been vehehehery deliberately hiding, is certainly better use of time than, for instance, attempting to reason with djb jzw & all.
23:40 asciilifeform i suspect that fellating hogs is better use of time than speaking to djb et al
23:40 mircea_popescu be that as it may.
23:41 asciilifeform incidentally i regularly go looking for 'performance numbers' for various , and it is very frustrating, largely from the ~total nonexistence of anything like standardized hardware setup
23:41 mircea_popescu or for that matter anything like actual measurements.
23:41 asciilifeform i.e. when asciilifeform measures his $proggy runs, he is measuring at the same time a possibly unreproducible combo of ssd+ram+cpu+...
23:42 asciilifeform in the days of, e.g., commodore64, with 100 mil people having SAME pcb, within 5% tolerance of crystals -- time measurements were immediately meaningful.
23:42 mircea_popescu aha
23:42 asciilifeform FG is manufactured, incidentally, to this tolerance
23:44 asciilifeform but today when asciilifeform goes and , e.g., http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-19#1659220 , the measurement is only useful standing next to similar from same box
23:44 a111 Logged on 2017-05-19 17:22 asciilifeform: in other news, a 4096-bit A**B takes approx 14 seconds (3GHz) .
23:44 mircea_popescu myeah. particularly "ghz" means jack
23:44 asciilifeform ( for instance, i go and run on a crapple , with slower clock but larger l1, and get 1/7th the interval spent )
23:44 asciilifeform aha!
23:46 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680575 << ffa is graphical demonstration that this is so
23:46 a111 Logged on 2017-07-08 02:35 sina: and you contend the actual final implementation of such a thing will actually be less lines of a code than the existing thing
23:46 asciilifeform and not only 'fewer lines' but 0 of overflowlang
23:46 asciilifeform and 0 pointers
23:46 asciilifeform etc.
23:49 asciilifeform i just counted gpg 1.4.10 : 156,436 loc -- and that ain't counting the autoconf liquishit, or the libs it pulls in
↖ ↖ ↖
23:50 asciilifeform 'p' currently is ~2.5k of ada. and getting thinner.
23:50 asciilifeform ( when thin enough -- released. even if a little slow. because i want folx to begin to grasp. )
23:51 asciilifeform the sheer gap between what is extant and what is possible - is, i suspect, unfathomable to the uninitiated and the weak of heart.
23:51 asciilifeform ( and i dun even claim a magical handle on all that is possible. for all i know, next d00d will turn my 2.5k into 250. somehow. )
23:52 asciilifeform ( of ~non-idiomaticidiotic~ clean shaven knuthola, say, even. )
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