#trilema | 2017-03-23

asciilifeform this theory of "interesting concepts" of a tribe dead on its own power is the height of unpersuasiveness.

00:28

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-22#1630992 << was elaine ou, a phd cum writer whom i invited over (via pgpgram!) after reading http://elaineou.com/2017/03/17/the-bitcoin-backlog/ recently. definitely seems brighter than average.

00:28

Logged on 2017-03-22 20:47 ben_vulpes: !!up eo

00:30

make that phd student, not phd. electrical engineering at stanford.

00:31

shinohai who the fuck esteems a two bit instructor in an obscure university that's been circling bitcoin for years and has as of yet produced nothing besides tweets and dandruff ?

00:31

Hence the quotes.

00:31

myeah

00:32

mircea_popescu is free to be as 'unpersuaded' as he wants. fact: his machine -- can overrun an array; bolix -- could not; his box -- crashes, cannot be examined or uncrashed (yes) -- bolix -- could; and various other aspects, well covered in teh logz.

00:33

so then it's not the concepts that were interesting but the implementation ?

00:33

pete_dushenski so why so quiet ?

00:34

mircea_popescu: arguably, in the sense where sikorsky's chopper is interesting, while davinci's -- much less .

00:35

do you wish to know how did some old farts manage to stick it into the missus, because "the concept" of getting it up is interesting in the sense of well, not actually, you have the concept, it just, what exactly ? yours dun work ?

00:36

there's just about nothing interesting you could find by opening hood of ancient car, as an engine designer today. not one trhing. most of them are collected, and are revered by a so-minded public, and aren't documented worth didly squat. i dun think this sunday hobby item is different from that.

00:37

mircea_popescu: girl (rather cute, i might add) said she just wants to lurk to start. read logs etc. i've pointed her towards registering her key with deedbot and said she can ask q's via pm or pgpgram. we'll see what comes of the endeavour i guess.

00:37

what am i going to learn blowing a million dollars worth of highly energetic photons on the 55 chevy engine block ? how to cut metal with analog calipers ?

00:37

mircea_popescu: the basic tech of internal combustion -- was not lost.

00:37

pete_dushenski works.

00:37

asciilifeform so what was lost here, lisp ?

00:37

on the other hand, there is not ONE sane cpu on the market. the kind with enforced type tags and bounds.

00:38

not since late '80s.

00:38

that -- was lost.

00:38

there isn't a single engine on the market, the kind with shaft driven aspiration and carbureted intake. so what.

00:38

no engines, period. to run with this analogy. only horse.

00:38

heck, it';s not even legal to try and sell or drive one.

00:39

i see you claiming it, it's just not sticking. evidently digital accumulators exist. no horse.

00:39

piece of shit that sees no types, no bounded arrays, etc. but only soup -- yes, exists. and the 'seekoority' field, wih it.

00:40

both could go away.

00:40

this does not improve the validity of your horse theory.

00:40

yes, catalytic convertors could go away. they don't work with carburetors. so ?

00:40

this equivalence does not exist here.

00:41

i tell you i dun see it.

00:42

cpu that obeys type constraints is quite unlike the familiar idiot kind. in exactly same way that trains equipped with westinghouse's air brake, are unlike the earlier ones where brake man ran from car to car pulling ropes.

00:42

seems a minor improvement.

00:42

they're sure still trains.

00:42

nope. one is a coffin in wheels.

00:42

other -- train.

00:42

*on

00:42

look, the label game only works if you can enforce it. and you can't.

00:43

so, the concept of moving signalling from rigid to fluid medium. great idea. minor point.

00:43

well i can't very well by force of magic will, teleport mircea_popescu into a pre-airbrake train so he can feel he diff on own skin.

00:43

so in that sense no.

00:44

it's just a different category of special pleading. even if you get me to fuck liz taylor tonight, and even if i personally fucking love it and propose marriage, i still won't agree she's structurally different from womanhood.

00:44

skin or no skin, things are what they are.

00:45

mircea_popescu is in the position of the greeks who pissed on heron's turbine.

00:45

some guy came up with the bright idea of ading a fine copper mesh to miner lamps so they dont' start fires anymore, about the same time. it didn't fucking change mining from milk to ambrosia.

00:45

'same as slave, but clunky, snoar'

00:45

this not so.

00:45

mircea_popescu is in the position where he spent many years applying serious, scientific methods to the problem of knowledge classification.

00:46

this gives him an edge over ad hoc feelings, it's only feelings approach.

00:46

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-22#1631221 << define 'possible'. >x connections ? doesn't crash ? because i've been running trb on vps since it came out and have no particular complaints other than semi-regular st9 errors.

00:46

Logged on 2017-03-22 23:34 mircea_popescu: tbh i have nfi how you could run trb in a vps. i don't think it's possible, not really. would be certainly quite the medal of merit on any software that can handle such.

00:46

decade of archaeological work == 'only feelings' nao? lol

00:46

pete_dushenski holy shit it didn't freeze ?!

00:47

asciilifeform your proposed cut of the gordian knot was "let mp feel what i feel!!11"

00:47

nuhuh

00:47

what powers the vps ?

00:48

'4 E5v3 CPU Cores'

00:48

mircea_popescu: it is difficult to compress decade of archaeology into 1 persuasive paragraph. esp. to persuade a fella who in his panglossism has determined not to be persuadable.

00:48

'we live in the best of computings, bolix died on own power' etc

00:48

i've determined no such thing. i jus' said, i dunsee it.

00:48

im not claiming it's not there or anything.

00:49

this aside, what power did bolix die on ?

00:50

of having been a miniature steklov institute, in turn part of a miniature su, reagan's bezzle.

00:50

'nothing kills like bad money' or how it went.

00:50

so it never was economically relevant ?

00:50

mircea_popescu: also 4gb ram and 1tb raid that processes tx way the hell faster than dulap on mech hdd

00:50

mircea_popescu: not apart from the amex fraud sensor thing, afaik.

00:50

pete_dushenski that dun sound like a vps. sounds like a proc spec ?

00:50

asciilifeform then what the fuck are we talking about ? airbrake made bank.

00:51

mircea_popescu: moar analogous to ac current. which very nearly went to same place as symbolics.

00:51

could have very easily not made-bank.

00:51

how ?!

00:51

mircea_popescu: that's a point eh.

00:51

we had entire thread!

00:52

what, edison tried to blackball it and failed. counterfactuals make for poor support.

00:53

microshit is what a successful edisoning looks like.

00:53

i dunno bout that. maybe.

00:56

( see also: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-07-29#1215563 , http://btcbase.org/log/2014-06-02#698992 , possibly elsewhere. )

00:56

Logged on 2015-07-29 00:35 asciilifeform: at any rate, if you go and read edison's writings, you get a very similar flavour of 'idiot savant / malicious imbecile' as from bill gates

00:56

Logged on 2014-06-02 18:05 asciilifeform: (e.g. power station on every street corner, wall wiring as thick as your arm, etc)

00:56

i never got much more from gates than from any other zigglar.

00:57

"gotta be successful" 1980isms and that's about it.

00:57

a very sad generation.

00:57

the gates in the 'letter to hobbyists', not the senile husk, no

00:57

sure.

01:00

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-23#1631587 << wait pete_dushenski , what error

01:00

Logged on 2017-03-23 04:46 pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-22#1631221 << define 'possible'. >x connections ? doesn't crash ? because i've been running trb on vps since it came out and have no particular complaints other than semi-regular st9 errors.

01:00

?

01:00

EXCEPTION: St9bad_alloc \nstd::bad_alloc \nbitcoin in ProcessMessage() \n

01:01

looks like a nonfatal oom

01:01

it's definitely nonfatal

01:05

mircea_popescu: 'Every service is in a dedicated VM container' << i'm not clear on difference between vm and vps, but i have at least one trb box on vm it seems.

01:06

quote obv from service provider

01:06

mm

01:06

also, 'We make use of KVM/QEMU technology'

01:06

impressive

01:07

so about that medal...

01:15

yeah, pretty impressive really.

01:16

vm host is not unlike house of ancient flats with 1 hot water tank for 10

01:16

if 1 washes -- always enough water, no issues

01:17

if 5 -- problem.

01:23

i would expect any host trying to make money with vm to have kicked him off

01:34

http://archive.is/fmGhw << i don't even know where to begin with this 'day in the life of 28yo credit suisse banker'. is bi that fucking cocksure that they think their readers will swallow pictostory about nice kid who plays squash and eats in cafeteria all day ? as if this kid isn't pushing dodgy shit onto worthless clients he and his bank don't give a shit about all because his higher-ups have some bad

01:34

paper to unload. kid's overpaid salesman, not 'relationship manager' like some walmart customer service desktard. wtf.

01:35

and the easiest sale of them all

01:35

is convincing some 28yo kid he's not some 28yo kid.

01:35

always easier when the mark wants to believe.

01:35

honorifics will do that in a heartbeat. aha.

01:36

not unlike yours truly at similar age. 'look mom ima a republican lord!' lol

01:37

lol

01:38

on that high note, i'll call it an eve. bon soir!

01:38

nn

~ 3 hours 58 minutes ~

05:36

http://qntra.net/2017/03/vermont-residents-on-state-run-job-board-hacked/ << Qntra - Vermont Residents On State Run Job Board Hacked

~ 4 hours 40 minutes ~

10:16

heh

10:17

in other lulz, https://archive.is/ADnD6 >> 'Nunes set off the firestorm with a news conference earlier in the day in which he described the surveillance of Trump aides through what’s called “incidental collection,” something he noted was routine and legal.'

10:17

didjaknow. ACCIDENT!1111

10:18

lol.

10:18

i have no fucking idea what sort of frogbrains havwe to be in these brainboxes.

10:18

dude is fucking frying them, and they're going through the predictable motions. "oh, trump will fry us. lol" "oh, trump is just saying so" "oh, he accidentally beat us up but he loves us"

10:18

bitch... grow up. nobody fucking wants you. there's no space left for you.

10:19

"oh no, that's just not poissible, who wouldn't want an obnoxious old woman." guess.

10:23

gotta love the "routine" device of the SOPS also. "john smith, why did you wait in a black van behind the highschool for the cheerleaders to come out, then chased one down, stripped her naked, tied her and took her to your van ?" "oh, i ALWAYS DO THIS!"

10:23

vs "usg agency, why did you eavesdrop on trump and then lie about it and then lie about other things ?" "oh, WE ALWAYS DO THAT"

10:23

bitch... this isn't an excuse.

10:24

hey if lavrentiy pavlovich beria does routinely...

10:24

heh

10:24

at least send them some fucking flowers.

10:25

"roses are sweet, bruises are blue, i had a great time but not as great as your asshole is now."

10:25

pretty sure obummer sent him flowers. (or was it a happy greeting card ? luvvletter?) on nomoarobummer-day

10:26

oh incidentally, for the socialists in attendance : watch "quiz show". it's an utter piece of crap i couldn't comprehend why anyone bothered making until we got to the scene where the white priviledge guy apologizes for existing.

10:26

enjoy teh tv fiction, i say, tis as close as you're fucking getting.

10:41

mornin'

10:41

This box with 2 E5650's and 64Gb RAM showed up yesterday. now, just need some drives...

10:49

sweet.

10:50

ya, kinda neat. looking forward to getting this fired up.

10:52

I'm jelly mod6 but gg

10:53

fwiw it was only like $375

10:53

yeah, since bolix went the fuck away computing's not expensive at all

10:53

*

mircea_popescu still remembers making the very HARD fucking decision of not dropping 2k of 1990 dollars on a 15 inch monitor.

10:54

oh yeah, back in those days computer-anything was $$$. Especially CRTs.

10:54

"but mp, they were built to last. think, you could still have it!!" yeah. i could. and it'd be worth 25k in today's dollars, and it'd still be a 15 inch mcga or w/e the fuck it was

10:56

Hey not bad at all

10:59

lulzily trinitron is still $$$

10:59

esp if you want a fresh one

10:59

well i wasn't gonna pick THAT example :D

10:59

I want a trinquetron

10:59

also trinitron more like 2000s. the 90s were atrocious, all that green.

11:00

in retrospect, i can't believe my eyes lived through it.

11:00

micro-mp used to spend so much time staring down early displays o brother.

11:01

there's a biological immunity, i suspect

11:02

yeah, young men have it too easy.

11:02

asciilifeform's elder brother, for instance, spent ~= time in front of bad displays -- perfect vision to this day

11:02

asciilifeform -- not

11:02

ah like that ? mebbe.

11:02

this is good news then, blindness sucks.

11:03

speaking of demise of bolix, one of the oddities behind the princely (like entire bulldozer!111) cost of the machines, was the crt, at the time there was NO mass manufacture of high-res (1152x864 iirc) crt, anywhere on planet3; they had'em custom-blown.

11:03

i know. kinda why i said.

11:04

seems to me a lot of it is a particular sort of hype.

11:04

(for most of the life of the product, they were 1bit b&w, for the elementary reason that no one would buy $mil of video ram)

11:04

incidentally the cost was quite typical of minis.

11:04

simply, the other minis had by then vanished.

11:04

there's that expression that there's two kinds of fools in this world, the kind that says this is old, and therefore good ; and the kind that says this is new, and therefore better. just because we're awash in type 2 idiocy from the ipaditiots and mactards dun mean the type 1 went away.

11:05

wtf do i want a handblown crt for! and how much of it was ~the equivalent ?

11:05

they weren't handblown!

11:05

but that no one else was even contemplating highres graphics in single user workstation.

11:05

i'm making a broader point using a rhetorical device.

11:05

'pioneer -- arrow in his back', said the 19th c americans.

11:06

there is also that.

11:08

let me put it this way to you asciilifeform :

11:09

if the only way to get a kock gpgtron was to dig one out of the one clothing store in utah that accidentally got all the 18 evcer produced and sells one now and again when they stumble on the box in the basement -- would your idea of the gpgtron be closer or further from your current, and correct, idea of it ? which, unless i lost track, goes along the rails of "nothing in there is salvageable ; full rewrite" ?

11:10

i did carefully point out that , e.g., http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-23#1631528

11:10

Logged on 2017-03-23 03:39 asciilifeform: the old iron, doppler , is not -- contrary to the delusions of 'collectors' -- interesting per se. the ~software~ was not even interesting per se -- it was a tall pile of stinking mit hacks. the CONCEPTS, however, as described in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=284 , WERE interesting.

11:10

yes but i suspect you don't actually know what the word "concept" means.

11:10

the bolix -- also needs full rewrite. 99+% of what was in it, was to work around the frightening limitations of the tech of the period.

11:12

the concepts in question reduce to very basic sanity, which the transistor-impoverished people of the '70s-'80s simply could not afford : cpu that understands context ('is this word part of a bignum? where does the array end?'), programs that hold enough info to restart/repair, and various other.

11:12

today -- can afford them, your cpu's tlb cache alone is 50x the size of the bolix total transistor count.

11:13

"concept" is not shorthand for "metaconsideration" ; concept denotes the root node of a knowledge tree. and you manifestly DO have the involved concepts, because casual remarks like http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-23#1631556

11:13

Logged on 2017-03-23 04:37 asciilifeform: on the other hand, there is not ONE sane cpu on the market. the kind with enforced type tags and bounds.

11:13

but the expectation -- has vanished. konsoomer expects, dare say enjoys, crashes, 0days.

11:13

this being the substance of the whoile discussion since yest : you claimed to want something you showed you have ; i deduced the confusion must be resolved. "concepts" in the sense of "metaconsiderations" aren't interesting ; concepts in the sense of concepts you already have.

11:14

it'd depend on what means 'have'.

11:14

yes, inside my head -- i have.

11:14

you just said it! have, have.

11:14

well yes.

11:14

on my desk, or in a form that'd convince folx who grew up in cmachine monkeystan -- don't have.

11:15

but this is a red herring, because your stated aim with the archeology is to populate your head not your desk

11:15

it's not like you aim to take the found machines to the kinko's and copy them into more exemplars.

11:15

i dare say i succeeded, in 'populating head'

11:15

so then.

11:17

and re "folks", the elephant of sadness in the field everyone's been dancing around since forever is that none of the buyers buy for anything like a sane puyrpose. much like the 55 firebird buyer who isn't buying it in 2015 to make teenie boppers suck his cock in it ; but to drive it by city dumps and industrial zones which used to be a town and stroke his memories.

11:17

and this in the best case, a good half simply buy them to deny it to memory strokers in the hope of geting more $$$ later.

11:17

ain't this exactly what i said re the bolix collectors ?

11:18

i guess it is. you were just uncharacteristically nice about it.

11:24

lol

11:24

it happens! lol

~ 39 minutes ~

12:03

"DoubleAgent exploits a 15 years old undocumented legitimate feature of Windows and therefore cannot be patched." https://github.com/Cybellum/DoubleAgent

12:03

ahahaha

12:05

What was that you said yesterday about Windows being "Perfectly safe" now, Mr Sirer ?

12:05

which one is sirer ?

12:06

'Cybellum Is The First Deterministic Zero-Day Prevention Platform™ That Eliminates Unknown Threats With First-Step Threat Protection™' << lel

12:06

The Prof that really isn't a Prof @ cornell

12:06

a lol. whatevs.

12:06

*

asciilifeform reading the vendor's www, the 'magical tech' seems to resolve to... stack cookies

12:07

genius

12:07

i wish i came up with that. could do like... logins over http and shit!

12:08

( for noobs -- 'stack cookie' is the -- nowadays common, at least in gccland -- practice of putting a random turd on the end of a stack that overflows, and later testing if it is still there before popping a return addr )

12:08

pretty much a cookie.

12:08

it goes under different names

12:09

Still won't actually prevent said buffer overflow

12:09

microshit even has own.

12:09

shinohai: noshit.jpg

12:09

shinohai nor would it prevent malware feeding you it.

12:09

just like www cookies.

12:15

in other recent lulz , https://archive.is/xXW9T >> '...race condition in the n_hdlc Linux kernel driver (drivers/tty/n_hdlc.c). It can be exploited to gain a local privilege escalation. ... This driver provides HDLC serial line discipline and comes as a kernel module in many Linux distributions, which have CONFIG_N_HDLC=m in the kernel config. ...introduced on 22 June 2009'

12:16

best of all, (followup post),

12:16

'Exploiting the flaw in the vulnerable module n_hdlc does not require Microgate or SyncLink hardware. The module is automatically loaded if an unprivileged user opens a pseudoterminal and calls TIOCSETD ioctl for it setting N_HDLC line discipline.'

12:16

didjaknow.

12:16

heh

12:17

*

trinque wonders who leaves module loading on

12:17

in the kernel config

12:18

trinque: folx who work on modules ?

12:18

or builds drivers he doesn't use, even

12:18

sure, use it for dev I guess

12:18

folx who build must-boot-on-multiple-boxes images ?

12:18

('livecd' etc)

12:18

pestilentially common, kernel with 5k modules and 100k drivers

12:19

asciilifeform: that's living in sin and you know it

12:19

it's what you get unless you sit for two weeks with pair of snippycutters.

12:19

and at the end you get a thing that stops booting when you swap raid cards etc.

12:20

argument being convenience?

12:21

'convenience' is not the word. how does trinque propose to make a 'livecd' (installer, say) that uses no modules.

12:23

isn't my doing that there is no tool to produce a kernel driver config other than booting EVERYTHING THAT EVER WAS

12:24

trinque: i wonder if there is a means of making modules loadable ONCE per boot

12:24

( i have genuinely nfi, q for everyone tuned in )

12:24

if there were, you'd boot a minimal environment that can produce a kernel config, then you'd go build your kernel, then bake that into your very own ISO

12:25

this you can already do

12:25

sure.

12:25

it is what I said after all

12:25

what i'd like is : 1) 'hardware not present? MODULE DOESN'T LOAD. EVER' 2) modules can be loaded, but strictly 1ce per boot.

12:26

aha, I'd at least like "look, network driver is the last thing you may ever load"

12:26

and that's still not better than "you only have the code available for what you intend to do"

12:26

we're headed for the kernel for the kernel aren't we

12:26

still doesn't convert the public toilet that is unix/x86 into something else. but would shrink the audit surface considerably.

12:26

THE FUCKING REASON THE KERNEL EVEN EXISTS!!1

12:27

mircea_popescu: this already happened in heathendom, long ago, was called 'microkernel' heresy

12:27

sigh.

12:27

no not that.

12:27

crapple, iirc, uses.

12:27

it is stupid.

12:27

( because pretends to an isolation that is physically impossible on the iron )

12:27

just a minimal linux kernel that boots, can interrogate hardware IDs and fart out a .config

12:28

trinque: and support gcc..?

12:28

then you go build only the drivers you need somewhere else and come back

12:28

you keep wanting to drag me to a point that's easily knocked down; it wont happen

12:28

:p

12:28

trinque: where's 'somewhere else' ?

12:29

trinque: i'm not even that far along, currently trying to determine what your idea ~was~

12:29

k, there is a check at the beginning of every module which involves "is this hardware present" for drivers

12:29

^ in actual practice, very much not-every, lol

12:29

that has no business being there and not further upstack producing the .config you need

12:29

well, other sins

12:29

sanity would dictate you boot something which can run all those checks ~and not the fucking driver code too~

12:30

and then you go build all the drivers elsewhere and come back

12:30

trinque ever work on driver for linux ?

12:30

boot minimal kernel -> run driver introspectatron -> get .config -> build kernel -> bake ISO

12:31

so basically, we make a usb diagnoser, you stuff it into mystery box, it spits out the equivalent of makefiles for it, you go to hot box, create image, plop it into mystery box and it boots ?

12:31

I'm not about to defend whatever gay decisions linus allowed

12:31

the sad thing re the iron , is that 'determine if installed, and if so, where on the bus' is often 80% of the driver !

↖ ↖

12:31

oh jeez

12:31

the typical iron, is retarded far, far beyond the belief of anyone who is innocent of subj

12:31

not 80, but a solid 40% sure.

12:31

duntakemywordforit.

12:33

often there are subsystems, i'll give concrete example:

12:33

GB nics have 2 parts, that are electrically independent and often made by separate firms, the 'mac' and 'phy' (the latter is what actually drives the transformer, the former -- what you/os think of as 'the nic')

12:33

they have their own, internal bus, that connects'em

12:34

to initialize the phy, you gotta first find and init the mac...

12:34

massive shit show, and it is only ONE example.

12:34

and phy doesn't even appear to exist without mac init?

12:34

pretty sad

12:34

trinque: correct

12:34

or, more pedestrian example,

12:35

on many (most?) extant boxes, the thermometers sit on a 'sm' bus (2-3 wire thing, there are several variants) which in turn sits on pci bus

12:35

so you gotta walk the buses, in turn, before it becomes even meaningful to attempt to speak to the thermometers.

12:35

(and this is a 'clean' example, that mostly ~works!)

12:36

the point, sadly, is that the world of 1993, where the machine consists of gadgets you can converse with independently, is gone

12:36

teh craptree

12:36

"what happened to computing ?" "it was captured by the craptree"

12:37

and good chunk of the craptree , in linuxland and winblowzstan both, consists of this crapolade

12:38

asciilifeform it's certainly a LOT less meaningful to speak of some supposed linux-windows distinction than it was in 1997. this is what bumbling imbeciles a la ermin gun sirer aim to communicate, in their bovine fashjion, when they say "windows is perfectly safe" : not that windows is anything but the crap it always was ; but that they feel confident they've managed to smear it on everything so bereft of alternative one "sho

12:38

uldn't" dare piss on their faces.

12:38

I certainly concede the point that there's no sane way the kernel build process could go other than "better pack in everything" and then snip.

12:39

trinque the more important point he's making is that sanitization of software'd best start with motherboard redesign

12:39

trinque: fabrice bellard had an interesting experiment, where he stuffed tinycc into kernel, and had it self-build on boot

12:39

trinque: may be worth looking into

12:39

he usually misstates this as hav ing to do with cpu foundries etc, which it pointedly does not.

12:39

but i'd prefer to help x86 die, not to build elaborate new life support for it.

12:39

you ~could~ rearrange extant chips in an infinitely saner fashion for very little cost.

12:39

mircea_popescu: aha, and in my head there was this ACPI table you could ask the BIOS for or w/e

12:39

still present of course, not hobbist 1k dollar cost. but nothing compared to the 1trn foundry runs you

12:39

mircea_popescu: nope. the existing chips all rely on the various craptree buses.

12:40

asciilifeform a chip is a chip is a chip. it'll do whatever the fuck.

12:40

mircea_popescu: nope.

12:40

it wants the bus, or no pasaran. i know, sad.

12:40

yes yes. still not need a foundry for this.

12:40

a documented ~homogeneous~ fpga, would suffice.

12:41

(still doesn't exist, and is actually the ~only reason i even said 'need foundry')

12:41

there's many possible approaches to this ford we're not at yet.

12:41

having banged my head against subj for decade+ now, i'd be interested in hearing of one i haven't yet thought of.

12:42

bang your head moar productively, you.

12:42

we might have had this thread, but one example of unfixable yet ubiquitous braindamage in iron: usb.

12:43

the spec is literally bookcase-length;

12:43

and NO extant iron implements it honestly.

12:43

or ever will.

12:43

because the thing resembles winblowz api, contradictions and all.

12:43

cancerous bureaucracy.

12:45

the original idea seemed appealing -- to make devices self-describing and conformant to standardized profiles -- 'keyboard', 'block disk', etc

12:45

eh, just use rs lol

12:46

mircea_popescu: laugh, but it's the ONE interface that's ~actually~ standard

12:46

anyway, usb suffers immensely from the utf effect. "only plug with power in it, everyone gotta be there!11"

12:46

on all comps, american, soviet, martian.

12:46

it's how los angeles went to shit, and new york before it.

12:46

"gotta be there"

12:46

(which is why it is in FUCKGOATS)

12:46

asciilifeform i was not laughing at all. dead serious.

12:47

computer-i can has rs for slow or ethernet for fast, and thassit.

12:47

tops out at 1MBit tho (and that's pushing it, needs short wire.)

12:47

jobs style.

12:48

keep things simple. i'd rather see a bank of eight upt and another bank of 64 rs holes on the machine than the current bs.

12:48

and yes, put the monitor through the eth card too. bs special bus.

12:48

mircea_popescu: like bolix!111

12:48

monitor-on-lan.

12:49

asciilifeform i told you we have the concepts.

12:49

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-23#1631306 << see also.

12:49

Logged on 2017-03-23 00:12 asciilifeform: if i ever make the fpgaized thing, it sure as fuck won't bother trying to drive an lcd or eat keyboard, wtf, just speak x11.

12:49

aha

12:50

there's no disagreement here.

12:50

you only really need that 1 hole.

12:50

even rs232 can hang off ethernet.

12:50

might be advantageous to have electrically separate high and low.

12:50

(there are konsoomer-ready boxes for this, i had a bunch when working with the lab robot)

12:50

but whatever, ianae.

12:50

multiple nics.

12:51

the 1 serious problem with everything-via-nic, is latency, it is an overhead-heavy thing, and intrinsically buffered

12:51

wich is why i say, may be good to have rs aside.

12:51

you wouldn't want to pump audio, or animation, etc over it.

12:51

( or via serial )

12:52

asciilifeform that's ok, if i feel the need to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629701 i'll just pick up an ipad.

12:52

Logged on 2017-03-20 20:46 mircea_popescu: in other lulz, the state of casual gaming is completely fucked up. so other than utter throwaways, stuff that looks like someone's undegrad project, the ~entire market of ipad-likes (stuff that works in the browser, or else via a "light" client for windows/mac, or else as a ipad/android etc app) is wholly like this :

12:52

sort of where i ended up, in this line of thought

12:52

'gimme a real comp, everything else can happen either later, or on dedicated nintendo'

12:53

quite.

12:53

large portion of the whole mess is actually trying to capitalize on the fact that the killer micros came with their own television set

12:53

in contrast with gameboys or w.e

12:53

which is why amiga made better computers than ameritrends back in 1992.

12:54

the 'killermost' micro, interestingly (commodore 64) -- did not

12:54

(did not ship a display. not until very late in its life)

12:54

myeah.

12:54

amiga -- did; but this 'bolixed' it into a price point where it was outcompeted by the 64 !

12:54

(and destroyed the maker)

12:55

and once it did ship it, commodore i mean, it became less relevant nor more so.

12:55

aha, via the above process

12:55

myea

12:56

the micro warz were a textbook case of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-23#1631399

12:56

Logged on 2017-03-23 00:45 mircea_popescu: it is much worse to have a town of 1000 populated by 500 idiots with idiots' tastes and 20 bucks to spend each

12:56

'victory of the cockroaches'

12:56

in any case by 2017 we rerally can relax re the "omfg television set" marketing criteria of 1987

12:57

turning vectorade into bitmapola really oughat be happening inside, or at least near, the lcd -- rather than in the comp.

12:57

yes.

12:57

for one thing.

12:57

ditto audio

12:58

the bolix folx got this right in 1981.

12:58

for the other --- THERE IS NO REASON FOR BITMAPERIZWER TO TALK BACK!!11

12:58

make it one way only! get all that shit out of the box and into the display where it can hurt nothing!

12:58

(the 36xx console has a motherfucking m68k JUST FOR THE AUDIO - 16 bits! m68k was selling as ~cpu~ in other boxes)

12:59

the only thing the console knew how to send back, was keystrokes, and optionally audio-in

13:01

yeah i just meant re the fucking video bus

13:01

aha

13:01

video ended up on main system bus of pc, out of transistor poverty.

13:02

like the rest of it.

13:02

yeah well no more of that.

13:02

it is an artifact of poverty, quite like those sheet metal huts the half-monkey folk in brazil live in.

13:03

ditto, e.g., dma.

13:03

( pretty sure we had 'the' dma thread not long ago )

13:04

poverty, and it's daughters : ignorance ; and the expectation that the state is good.

13:06

not long ago i saw a photo of some american mega-rich d00d, forget who, and nobody cares, his refrigerator, was full of synthetic 'budveiser' beer

↖ ↖

13:06

symbolic of the traditional idiocy of the 'rich poor' man

13:06

and this is precisely what happened to the pc !

13:06

the cheap transistors -- did not go to make bounds-checking memory, no

13:06

they went to tlb cache, and other nonsense to make winblowz slightly less 'molasses'.

13:07

myeah

13:07

!~google dolitte "if i were a rich man"

13:07

jhvh1

mircea_popescu: If I Were A Rich Man Lyrics - Fiddler on the Roof - Soundtrack Lyrics: <https://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/bestofbroadway-americanmusical/ifiwerearichman.htm>; If I Were a Rich Man Lyrics - Fiddler on the Roof Cast - Soundtrack ...: <https://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/fiddlerontheroof/ifiwerearichman.htm>; If I Were a Rich Man (song) - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_I_Were_a_R

13:07

^ '...and one going nowhere, just for show!'

13:07

hm.

13:07

and now "management engine"

13:07

trinque: aha. and antennae spirals on ~every die.

13:08

( if not today -- tomorrow. )

13:09

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jfkaf70SYM << actual item.

13:15

btw mircea_popescu baking a pc-style mobo is not expensive, our existing pcb people could quite readily do it. the problem is 'out of what'. the necessary docs are not available, never leaked, nor the firmware signing keys (still not phuctored!1111 damn)

13:16

i thought about getting one with amd g-series -- and was at the point of seriously attempting it when the latter began to show signs of death

13:16

you miss lines, and not random lines either.

13:16

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-23#1631844

13:16

Logged on 2017-03-23 16:41 mircea_popescu: there's many possible approaches to this ford we're not at yet.

13:16

not missed , that's what prompted the line of thought

13:17

'is mircea_popescu referring to some concrete approach, or just a generic prof.brin-style 'THINK!YOUMAGGOTS''

13:17

just mp-style "i can see the future but can't explain it to you, back to work."

13:18

ye olde chip racket, as exemplified by xilinx (see thread), where 'by the time the docs leak, not only we stopped making it 15 years ago but go and buy even secondhand one!' -- remains operational.

13:18

i do not yet know a pill against it.

13:20

the gabriel_laddel approach -- 'oh hey i'll just pave over the swamp, nothing will ever fall through the pavement' -- also does not work, and is quite destructive to the sanity of folks who attempt it

13:22

this, afaik, leaves 'get considerably reduced expectations of what comp can do, and start making out of 1980s parts, and TTL' -- which is great, except no bitcoin

13:22

and -- for completeness -- Fyootoor Tech that mircea_popescu knows about, and asciilifeform -- does not.

13:22

( twist: 'fyootoor tech', mircea_popescu will reveal, is gurls with abacus )

13:27

unrelatedly, asciilifeform has been greatly enjoying a truly hilarious biography of kim il-sung : http://militera.lib.ru/bio/balkansky_a01/index.html

13:27

phf ^ might enjoy also.

~ 28 minutes ~

13:56

*

phf nods

13:56

i'll check it out

14:05

also, quite unrelatedly, but lulzy, polonium-210 in konsoomer product : http://www.amstat.com/staticmaster-2/staticmaster-ionizers

14:16

in random lulz, from the 90s : psx came out in 1994 iirc, and utterly wiped the market. half the developers active were caught with excessive 16 bit cartridge inventory and within 18 months were bankrupt. it owned so hardcore, esp with ff7 coming out for it, that for ~ 3 years there were no new offerings in the console market.

14:16

sony psx ?

14:16

didn't it use cdrom ?

14:16

and in '03 ?

14:17

THEN, the dreamcast came out in 1999. sold well originally but then flagged, for all sorts of reasons. to do with final engineering and social effects (their controllers sucked, their cds were fragile, the average market prefered cheap and abundant psx games to excellent but rare and expensive dc stuff.)

14:17

( maybe mircea_popescu was thinking of sega's 'saturn' ? )

14:17

so sega, in desperation, introduced a "minimum sales program". whereby, if the developer didn't meet a minimum value of sales

14:17

SEGA PAID THE DIFFERENCE.

14:17

asciilifeform you're thinking of tyhe ps2

14:18

what was psx ?

14:18

original ps came out 1994.

14:18

asciilifeform they called the first playstation psx back i nthe day. then they cannibalized it later on.

14:18

original ps also used cdrom, not cartridge

14:18

yes.

14:19

the point here being, again, to restate : if the developer didn't meet a minimum value of sales, sega paid the difference.

14:19

*

asciilifeform rereads

14:19

aaah.

14:21

this notion that i will support the wintel FOR FREE is the lolz of all time.

14:21

how about intel starts paying.

14:22

dunno why anybody would want to prop it up even for pay.

14:22

because i sure as fuck don't want "free trade" and "open whatever" and "accessiblity" if what that means is that intel gets to rule it.

14:22

and "foundations" SURE AS FUCK don't count as an improvement here.

14:22

it simply gotta die, pay has 0 to do with it.

14:22

"w3c" wants to set web standards, it'd better PAY UP FOR THEM BEING SUPPORTED

14:22

i ain't implementing nobody's standards for free.

14:23

asciilifeform no. bleeds first.

14:23

^ is exactly how i see not only intel, but pci, usb, et al.

14:23

burn it all.

14:23

of course you don't support it anyway. obviously. BUT IT FIRST PAYS THROUGH THE TEETH FOR THIS!

14:23

do things right.

14:25

unfortunately merely talking about 'monopolist scum must die' -- does not kill any; intel still would answer, if octopus could speak, 'aaah lol, have fun porting eulora to abacus'

14:25

anyway. this'll do fine for a stock answer to the people inquiring why $random-"standard" isn't supported. the account is delinquent. they owe a lot of money and are trying to defraud us of it.

14:26

asciilifeform good for it. whatever the delinquent debtor says matters little.

14:26

way i figure it intel owes tmsr about 1bn in license fees, royalties and late penalties.

14:27

how does mircea_popescu go about collecting ?

14:27

or is this fyootoor-tech.

14:27

that is an entirely separate matter.

14:27

( and how to collect, from vermin ? what do mice and rats have, that you might want ? )

14:27

they can worry about that.

14:30

upstack , re 'dreamcast' -- asciilifeform's brother was involved in making game for it. the hardware was superb.

14:31

yeah. it suffered mightily in what i called "final engineering". great food badly packaged so to speak

14:31

mere handful of games, for, what, whole year post release.

14:31

was quite enough to nail it.

14:31

terrible controllers.

14:31

actually to this day, famously bad controllers.

14:35

but the point being : nintendo utterly owned a market, which some years later had the n64 people killed for used as paperweights. sony owned the market, then lost to microsoft, and so following. this notion that intel has a hope in hell is about as ludicrous as the nonsense career bureaucrats in washington built their lives on.

14:35

"the demographics" were going to keep clinton in office forever so these schmucks could pay the mortgages they made aged 28 back in 1994. hurr.

14:36

intel inherited ibm monopoly -- which is what, 110 yrs+ nao

14:36

not quite nintendo.

14:37

don't be ridiculous. the ibm at came out in the 80s.

14:37

nope.

14:37

ibm sold tabulators in 1890s

14:37

and in this interval, they lost the whole market, all they got left is chips.

14:37

asciilifeform and wm did pony express runs, wtf's your point omg.

14:38

point being that it is one of the great american giants, like GE

14:38

circa same period.

14:38

'tbtf'

14:38

this is rank nosense entirely bereft of any meaning. you might as well recount your dreams.

14:39

dun become tru simply by mircea_popescu saying it.

14:39

well no, it doesn't.

14:39

1st class xerxes sea whippin'.

14:46

!~ticker --market all

14:46

jhvh1

BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1037.41, vol: 7556.49112154 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1061.999, vol: 7035.28327 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1038.1, vol: 22140.19171893 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1016.404356, vol: 3688.23710000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1035.898, vol: 2272.6432217 | Volume-weighted last average: 1039.92464331

14:47

understand, i very much wish to live to see mircea_popescu's prediction come alive

14:47

'house burns, but at least the bedbugs die'

14:47

this isn't teh actual word tho. dun rewrite teh bible!

14:48

tru

14:49

in re intel, it gotta die, but if it 'dies' merely by getting a chinese board of directors, but continues to produce ye olde x86 liquishit, with 35 yrs of idiocy built on top -- then didn't really die, not yet.

14:49

yes well, if your notion of "intel dies" === "the end of stupidity in any and all palpable form" then surely the roman empire still lives embodied in general motors.

14:50

a burn-off of the accumulated stupidity to date, would be a great start.

14:50

put pci, dma, usb, etc. to bed, for good.

14:50

put von neumann, finally , to bed.

14:51

not entirely impossible. just distant.

14:51

looks like we don't disagree: distant.

14:51

aite then.

~ 40 minutes ~

15:32

in other lulz, https://archive.is/QUcCh >> 'U.S.-Israeli teen arrested in Israel over bomb threats to Jewish centers'. 'A young Israeli man who also holds U.S. citizenship was arrested in Israel on Thursday on suspicion of making dozens of hoax bomb threats against Jewish community centers in the United States and several other countries. At a court hearing near Tel Aviv, the suspect's defense attorney said the young man has a growth

15:32

in his head that causes behavioral problems.'

15:32

didjaknow.

15:33

Is the growth his nose?

15:34

in yet other noose, https://wikileaks.org/vault7/darkmatter << part2: crapple edition (fw infectors for same, etc.)

15:35

'Also included in this release is the manual for the CIA's "NightSkies 1.2" a "beacon/loader/implant tool" for the Apple iPhone. Noteworthy is that NightSkies had reached 1.2 by 2008, and is expressly designed to be physically installed onto factory fresh iPhones. i.e the CIA has been infecting the iPhone supply chain of its targets since at least 2008.'

15:35

lulzy bit of disinfo, also (as if virginal pnojes were 'clean'.)

15:37

the bit with diddled nic dongles is lulzy.

15:39

the trick is not crapple-specific, either, most new laptop includes 'thunderbolt' plug, which is simply external pci

15:39

over which you can then dma, etc.

15:43

and oh hey hey hey lbj:

15:43

a broadcom GB nic datashit.

15:43

in this lulzbag.

15:43

( https://wikileaks.org/vault7/darkmatter/document/FDOS_1_0_FINAL_B57udiag/ )

15:44

nm. was public for eons (e.g., ftp://ftp.tyan.com/LAN/Broadcom/B57BCMCD826/EFI/UserDiag/b57diag.pdf )

15:44

( and 0 blob seekrits. )

15:44

in totally unrelated, i just learned that bash (and ksh) support "Brace Expansion", e.g. {0..3} => 0 1 2 3 or {a..d} => a b c d.

15:44

actually there's more in the relevant section, but these two use cases i've often missed, and have no idea how i didn't know about them till now

15:45

( in which cia directorate, gotta wonder, do they keep the uncastrated datashits. )

15:45

phf: interesting, and i don't recall ever seeing it used

15:46

{0..100} works as expected!

15:46

asciilifeform: They probably hide them at the Canada desk

15:46

i have a tool in my scripts folder, seq (e.g. seq 0 100) that does the same thing, and that i end up rewriting every once in a while

15:47

http://qntra.net/2017/03/usg-nsa-head-rogers-perjured-self-on-eavesdropping/ << Qntra - USG.NSA Head Rogers Perjured Self On Eavesdropping

15:47

i've never seen it used either, saw an example of it in recent poc||gtfo

15:48

phf: just curious, you wrote `seq` yourself? 'cuz bash already has seq built-in

15:49

(seq --help)

15:49

til

15:51

well to be precise bash doesn't actually have a seq builtin

15:51

but it does have brace expansion which largely serves the same basic purpose

15:53

i wonder how i've managed to never notice it. i use seq all over my scripts, and i have an own copy of seq too. i wonder how many times i was missing my seq just to fallback to stock :o

15:53

doppler: ah right, seq is actually a binary, fancy that (so works outside bash - hence why various .sh scripts use seq instead of bash's {} i guess, to be more compatible? just a guess)

15:53

hehe :)

15:53

I use seq all the time when I write posix sh scripts (brace expansion is specific to certain shells)

15:53

yeah, pretty much

15:55

doppler: welcome to the wot, who is companioncube?

15:56

!!v CB100C13DC966135F1D4D0FD4FBDC994EEAA381B961D96516A407FA51DAD3151

15:56

Framedragger rated doppler 1 << fresh blood / computer guy; his dad does account management

15:56

dude I know from another channel

15:56

thanks for the welcome

15:56

there are other chans using deedbot wot?

15:56

this i gotta see

15:57

or whatever, no need to cramp your style

15:57

nah, not as far as I know

15:57

but CC knows about this place

15:58

we were testing out the rating system

15:58

any idea of why he doesn't hang out here?

15:58

no idea :)

15:58

#trilema-lounge in action already

15:59

oh yeah, another thing about seq: it's not actually part of posix, and neither is BSD's jot(1)

15:59

so being fully compatible is a real pain

16:00

here i have seq but no jot. i see, so no guarantee

~ 48 minutes ~

16:48

in other lulz, didjaknow, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/qt/paymentserver.cpp#L111 << prb imports ssl certs ! the whole shit soup

16:49

( for how long nao ? i seem to recall that even gavin barfed, originally, from this, it was how hearn was booted out ..? )

16:59

hyu, no i did not know

17:00

yeah i mean it makes as much sense as any of the other magic green lock stuff

~ 1 hours 2 minutes ~

18:02

reading that horror, it'd seem as if this were the heathen alternative to, e.g., http://shop.nosuchlabs.com ( and bbet, and similar )

18:02

'payment protocol' lol.

18:03

the sheer depth of the retardation, ( https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0070.mediawiki ) >> 'Human-readable, secure payment destinations-- customers will be asked to authorize payment to "example.com" instead of an inscrutable, 34-character bitcoin address.' 'Resistance from man-in-the-middle attacks that replace a merchant's bitcoin address with an attacker's address before a transaction is authorized with a hardware w

18:03

allet.'

18:03

^ aaaanythingbutrsa!!!!

18:05

kinda hilarious, while the two 'cans of campbell soup' duke it out over massive-blox vs elephantine-blox, boring ol' workaday usgolade, e.g. 'pki', quietly made it into all prb variants

~ 31 minutes ~

18:36

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-23#1632046 << well... yeah...

18:36

Logged on 2017-03-23 19:44 phf: in totally unrelated, i just learned that bash (and ksh) support "Brace Expansion", e.g. {0..3} => 0 1 2 3 or {a..d} => a b c d.

18:38

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-23#1632082 << yeah.

18:38

Logged on 2017-03-23 20:48 asciilifeform: in other lulz, didjaknow, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/qt/paymentserver.cpp#L111 << prb imports ssl certs ! the whole shit soup

18:38

something something merchants payments something dorkitude.

~ 16 minutes ~

18:55

hola from new outpost

19:08

heya trinque

19:08

no moar texas ?

19:08

hola trinque

19:10

asciilifeform: nah, just downtown Houston vs formerly burbs

19:10

oh neato

~ 2 hours 21 minutes ~

21:32

http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/5E75433AB8F5C8DC0E3AB8E326083C24393A3C26C31FC11F4AB5CFE078DFF36D << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1383...2487 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '195.19.150.129 (ssh-rsa key from 195.19.150.129 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown RU KYA)

21:32

http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/5E75433AB8F5C8DC0E3AB8E326083C24393A3C26C31FC11F4AB5CFE078DFF36D << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1364...9587 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '195.19.150.129 (ssh-rsa key from 195.19.150.129 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown RU KYA)

~ 48 minutes ~

22:21

evening!

22:28

so how's teh downtown.

22:31

http://www.contravex.com/2017/03/23/twelve-thousand-kay-with-jay/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - Twelve thousand kay with Jay.

22:35

!!up gabriel_laddel_p

22:35

gabriel_laddel_p voiced for 30 minutes.

22:35

persistent fella.

22:36

lol, phaeton

22:36

asciilifeform: Exactly. Which is what is needed. For the record, "paving over the swamp" is coming along great, and that metaphore is wholly inadaquate for what I'm doing.

22:36

gabriel_laddel_p: do tell

22:39

Now that the "UX" is in some sense complete, I'm studying so the hardware can be swapped out from under it, exactly in the manner described by mircea_popescu earlier today.

22:39

what, approximately, do you have in mind, gabriel_laddel_p ?

22:40

The problem with swamp foundations is that by the time you've poured enough hydraulic cement to make footings, the cement gets heavy.

22:41

And there's a good chance some asshole nearby is running a salt plant and fucking with the water table

22:41

but the 6th castle stayed up!

22:41

Reviewing all the log references in the "TODO: new, better hardware" node of the manual and compiling a list of hardware that is less braindamaged. Purchasing, assembling & them selling them as the 2nd generation of Masamune.

22:41

lol

22:41

lmfao

22:41

(this is 2/3 years off)

22:41

gabriel_laddel_p: what means 'less braindamaged'

22:41

in this context

22:43

The most programmable possible. Idc if this means somebody reverse engineered the drivers, or it is documented, or it is simple enough that someone could revese engineer it, or or or

22:43

where, for example, do i buy a nic that doesn't dma ? or a cpu that works with it.

22:44

i'll buy right now. where are they.

22:44

phf: log might be busted atm, or my network's wonky (just pulled everything out of boxes and reassembled, so it's possible it's me)

22:44

There was a software defined fourth NIC dropped in the logs that is pretty well documented.

22:44

trinque: the bot dropped off earlier

22:44

ah

22:44

no a111 atm

22:45

mircea_popescu: downtown's great, welcomed me back last night with watching somebody drive wrong way up a one way road on the sidewalk to get to the burger joint I was at

22:45

gabriel_laddel_p: if you're thinking of nic-on-xilinx, every single one (with the exception of the 10BaseT half-duplex that's floated around since 1990s) relies on a xilinx-proprietary fabric turd

22:45

ha!

22:45

(i.e. is not valid raw verilog)

22:45

good old houston, been a decade

22:45

the guy pulled into the place right behind a cop, who couldn't be bothered with it

22:46

trinque: i've always wondered who drives against traffic, and why. perhaps -- a brit

22:47

asciilifeform: I'm thinking of the document ben_vulpes dropped in the logs, which iirc runs on the greenarrays chip.

22:47

asciilifeform: technically he didn't. went up the sidewalk

22:47

gabriel_laddel_p: greenarrays is neato. do you have one ?

22:47

Nope.

22:48

tricky to port something to it, if you dun have one. (i'm not aware of there being an emulator)

22:48

Am going to the FIG meetup group again to see if I can get a few for free...

22:48

i'd luvv to play with greenarrays, but refrained because i'm quite certain they will not outlive chuck moor

22:48

( even now, he is alive, and they are ~unobtainable )

22:49

Everyone associated with forth is ugly, which worries me.

22:49

lel

22:49

moor is what, 80 y.o. nao?

22:49

90?

22:50

Perhaps his fab equipment will be auctioned off when he dies.

22:50

Anyways, that's the sort of stuff I'm on the lookout for when I say "incrementally swap out the underlying hardware".

22:50

gabriel_laddel_p: he's fabless

22:51

( y'know, like most ic sellers -- he pays someone to make'em )

22:51

I know nothing about hardware. All I've got is a list of log lines where you talk about hardware that sucks less, and each and every time I record it.

22:52

gabriel_laddel_p: what happened to that www archiver you talked about for a minute?

22:52

trinque: I wrote most of the code, got a machine to host it, and.... a bunch of nonsense has prevented me from getting to sf and setting it up.

22:52

gabriel_laddel_p: get a copy of, e.g., hennessey & patterson. and read.

22:53

trinque: I have not forgotten about #masamune either, but life moves slower than I want it to/thought it would.

22:54

tbh I would have thought phf would have seen the masamune video & flown out here to get his free install the next day, but apparently the rest of you are less excited about this than I am

22:54

gabriel_laddel_p: do you have a place to live yet ?

22:54

asciilifeform: nah

22:54

it really helps in re making hardware, i swear

22:55

y'know, having a place to put.

22:55

masamune did pay for my new shoes, clothes & weed though.

22:55

gabriel_laddel_p: I proposed something to you, did I not?

22:55

you ignored it because it wasn't california enough

22:55

gabriel_laddel_p: this type of life has worked for programmers (e.g., rms, though he did eventually turn into a human mushroom, and i do not think it was pure chance)

22:55

trinque: what did you propose?

22:55

but not for hardware folx!!

22:55

gabriel_laddel_p: perhaps read the email when I bother to write you back

22:56

I sit here in a town full of oil business

22:56

gabriel_laddel_p when was the last time you had a full night's sleep ? or a proper meal ?

22:56

asciilifeform: 8-10 hours ago?

22:57

( perhaps ought to point out : amphetamine is not food, and also is not sleep )

22:57

asciilifeform: if only I had amphetamines I'd have a place to sleep...

22:57

aaah lolk

22:58

fking annoying b/c it is EVERYWHERE around here, but I simply don't know anyone. Eg there was a 200lb meth bust miles from where I am staying.

22:58

and if tumblr is to be trusted, it is very pure.

22:58

meth != amphetamine.

22:58

mircea_popescu: I don't like the regular stuff (adderall).

22:59

also notrly.

22:59

gabriel_laddel_p: ~all dope turns, 'magically', into 100% purity, when busted in usa. it is a peculiarity of the prosecutorial system, moar pure --> moar sentence

23:00

for instance, a kg of lsd has, in all likelihood, never existed on planet3, but ~every single trial of american makers of it has involved such a qty or larger

23:00

the feedstock is counted as 'pure product'.

23:00

asciilifeform: https://annoyinglysparklyreview.tumblr.com/ < if you look into the tumblr tags she uses you can track where the meth routes are in CA. people post pictures all the time. I have FACES of dealers a few miles from me.

23:00

it all appears to be of high quality & coming from mexico

23:01

trinque: I read your email and filed it under "never gonna happen".

23:01

asciilifeform and funny that nobody disputes all that nonsense, either.

23:01

lol just when i thought mircea_popescu had linked to every possible type of tmblr

23:01

nah i link a very narrow selection

23:01

mircea_popescu: ianal, but iirc it is postulated by statute

23:01

most of tumblr is inept sjw-ing and poor-people-preoccupations.

23:02

and cemented by precedent. so only removable by thermonuke.

23:02

asciilifeform i'd still piuss all opver it. by that point, what do you have to lose.

23:03

*

asciilifeform not deep scholar of subj, and has nfi what has been tried in the show trials, and with what result.

23:05

!!up gabriel_laddel_p

23:05

gabriel_laddel_p voiced for 30 minutes.

23:06

asciilifeform: https://methed-up-cat-addict.tumblr.com/image/152333318381 < looks pure to me.

23:06

guy lives within a train ride.

23:06

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-24#1632128 << i think stability issues are mostly digitalocean related at the moment. because i couldn't connect to log, and once i did bot autorecovered

23:06

Logged on 2017-03-24 02:44 trinque: phf: log might be busted atm, or my network's wonky (just pulled everything out of boxes and reassembled, so it's possible it's me)

23:06

gabriel_laddel_p: do you recall the death ray thread ?

23:06

asciilifeform: no?

23:07

when $contraband is advertised openly on www, what do you suppose you'll find when you knock on the door.

23:07

that californians don't follow any laws and don't prosecute one another.

23:07

and that the local police are bought off

23:08

he's actually not that far off.

23:08

lazy bums abound in teh sunshine state.

23:08

asciilifeform: people openly sell LSD all the time out here. I was given a vial of liquid for free a few months ago

23:08

gabriel_laddel_p: did it work ?

23:08

asciilifeform: ya

23:09

"evidently"

23:09

i'd ask 'what didja learn from it' but it is probably a mistake.

23:09

asciilifeform: it was what sparked my interest in physics.

23:10

the general lesson of that trip: "I'm not learning anything by hacking CL anymore, time to do something new"

23:10

this interest, is it active only when dosed ? or remains after.

23:11

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-24#1632161 << i just didn't think the video was good. i also can install all the individual packages that are involved, but i wanted to see if and how the symbiosis makes you more productive

23:11

Logged on 2017-03-24 02:54 gabriel_laddel_p: tbh I would have thought phf would have seen the masamune video & flown out here to get his free install the next day, but apparently the rest of you are less excited about this than I am

23:11

<gabriel_laddel_p> asciilifeform: if only I had amphetamines I'd have a place to sleep... << You know... There's GIRLS at NA meetings

23:11

fwiw i walked away with same impression as phf

23:11

asciilifeform: it remains. Eg, presently reading - Brousentsov's Ternary Principle, Bergman's Number System and Ternary Mirror-symmetrical Arithmetic

23:11

but there was none of that, because there wasn't actually anything being done. i think it would be a lot more impressive if you setup a non trivial task and showed how masamune makes that task easier to perform

23:12

i had nfi what brousentsov's thing existed in engl.

23:12

*that

23:12

phf: even if I gave you a list of all the packages, it would take ~6months to get everything playing nicely.

23:12

gabriel_laddel_p: phf has it. use kalman reti's infamous bolix movie as a guide.

23:12

^

23:12

And some of those GIRLS at NA meetings might have places for sleeping!

23:12

BingoBoingo: and they suck enough at life to end up in NA...

23:13

well, i wouldn't go as far as playing nicely either. you have a clim editor, that you can theoretically extend in all kinds of interesting ways, yet you're still using it in combination with the emacs, etc.

23:14

Well if you aren't sure drugs aren't part of problem keeping you from a mailing address feel free to keep trying them.

23:14

phf: nobody is going to drop all of their emacs packages & workflow overnight to learn a new system. Emacs is going to stick around until new hardware is made.

23:14

BingoBoingo: the depressing part, d00d seems to be 'chasing dragon', appears to think that the Ultimate Dope is waiting, somewhere, to be found, wunderwaffen, will bring victory.

23:15

phf: also, errors in the CLIM debugger need to go somewhere.

23:15

phf: if you have ideas of what is to be done when the whole CLIM process freezes, please, do let me know.

23:16

asciilifeform: From what I understand "Acid Trip Jackpot Ideas" are like Elliot's powerball tickets...

23:17

BingoBoingo: "I should study more" isn't a winning idea. GTFO.

23:17

useless puritan idiocy

23:17

i like how he keeps picking random people to be aggressive with.

23:17

heh https://annoyinglysparklyreview.tumblr.com/tagged/tweaker-girls

23:17

shame she can't you know pose

23:17

my solutions to problems like that don't usually involve "bring in a 40mb package". i'd write a top level handler, that shows a modal x11 based repl/restart machinery. sort of poor man's genera

23:18

gabriel_laddel_p: your "I will sell computers" is never going to happen.

23:18

that's what they told flaubert also!

23:18

i could tell gabriel_laddel_p that when i was a small boy, i also wanted somebody to go straight to 'great inventing' without all thar book larnin'

23:18

but it won't help.

23:18

he's just here to argue with himself to charge up the courage to I dunno, do a bump of meth, or not do a bump of meth, or w/e

23:18

I couldn't give a shit less

23:19

the thing about addicts is that it's their *entire* pattern of behaving, defines the whole thing

23:19

at least pre-sobriety BingoBoingo , say, was calm.

23:19

the chorus of "when will you learn" is part of the masturbation

23:20

"fuck you mom I'm an artist"

23:20

but at least the meth is burning the timid out: https://68.media.tumblr.com/b3c13481af4b0bd8b00da01226e327fe/tumblr_olsuewX3Bs1vhml3xo1_1280.jpg

23:20

not so sure that's a sane comparison.

23:20

gabriel_laddel_p: you do realize that there are several folks here that have made money doing exactly the kind of consulting I described?

23:20

trinque: making money is easy. making money doing something _meaningful_ is the difficult part.

23:21

lol

23:21

right.

23:21

yeah I worked for the alcoholic waiting for meaning in his life long enough

23:21

asciilifeform: I never wanted to be a great inventor. Still don't.

23:21

speaking of which, anyone seen search and destroy ?

23:21

little gem of a scorsese movie.

23:22

ben_vulpes: I your taste.

23:22

*applaud

23:23

trinque: I'm only here because ascii mentioned me earlier.

23:24

gabriel_laddel_p: hm? that's from your link

23:24

ben_vulpes: exactly. You said "shame she can't pose", I started to hunt for _that exact photo_ and then you dropped it into the logs

23:25

yeah that's not a particularly good pose

23:25

<gabriel_laddel_p> BingoBoingo: "I should study more" isn't a winning idea. GTFO. << Please study more drugs. Gain experience. Maybe things work out for you and can do the right about face learning to drug like a gentleman.

23:25

BingoBoingo: and what, pray tell does "drug like a gentleman" look like?

23:27

and to be clear - the only reason I had that LSD is because someone I've never met gave it to me. for free.

23:27

so we're doing this thing where we're extras, while he convinces himself he's doing fine?

23:27