Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-03-19 | 2017-03-21 → ↓
00:00 ben_vulpes "would you rather buy a car repair shop or a subway?"
00:00 mircea_popescu buy a subway holy shit. why the fuck would you buy an item the dorks expect to be provided "as a publicgood". fuck them.
00:01 mircea_popescu let them provide it.
00:01 ben_vulpes well yeah, nobody wants to deal with schmucks who're going to gripe about the shitbuck it's going to take to fix their sole mode of transportation
00:02 mircea_popescu quite.
00:02 ben_vulpes more specifically, "assuming one wants a car shop for purely emotional and recreational reasons, how to determine what to pay for it?" "calculate hardware liquidation price, discount four years of cashflow declining by 10-30% a year to today, and offer a dime over that"
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00:02 mircea_popescu moreover fuck the "it's going to take". you want me to own an item i can't price to market ? hurr.
00:02 trinque ben_vulpes: isn't trimet some kind of quasi-governmental tick sucking on not one, but two states?
00:02 trinque the only "own a subway" is that
00:02 ben_vulpes trinque: triggered
00:03 mircea_popescu pretty much, yes.
00:03 ben_vulpes trinque: subway trash food vendor
00:03 mircea_popescu that's the game in "owning" public infrastructure : you pretend to be the owner, offer the bureaucrats all the convenient excuses you can while sucking all the tax money possible. it's like lockheed martin without the wings
00:03 ben_vulpes which go for 5-7x what a car shop goes for, fwiw
00:04 mircea_popescu o wait, lockheed martin thing doesn't actually fly either
00:04 mircea_popescu it's ~= lockheed martin, on examination.
00:04 trinque lol
00:04 ben_vulpes the best game in town is actually to sell "software services" to the "public utilities"
00:04 mircea_popescu but yes, it's one step above trying to make money out of "guaranteed A essay" depository websites.
00:05 mircea_popescu except the essay is not for schoolboy consumption but for bureauctat consumption. he gives it to his boss / superviser / inquiry committee and walks
00:05 ben_vulpes except for how it's a miserable shitshow of liars and frauds and also you have to sell shit they won't actually benefit from to bureaucrats
00:06 mircea_popescu yeah, that's the problem with "sweet" setups of the religious persuasion : no real barrier to entry, it's all blowing smoke. so you sooner or later find yourself eyeball deep in the shitswamp and wonder how the "sweet" thing ended up fulla flies.
00:06 * ben_vulpes has a tool in place, the annual maintenance and extension budget for which was dwarfed by the amount of money spent closing the sale on its replacement. which is going on lord only knows how late, nth rewrite, over budget, no surprises in sight
00:07 mircea_popescu there's a lot of dumb shit young men do because their parents are woodland creatures / barn animals, buyt this is by far the most common, "building a career" on government crap.
00:07 mircea_popescu seems a great idea until you're 40 and 10-15-20 years in.
00:22 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-16#1628104 << tripped over the "won't connect to localhost" horseshit iirc, which you've fixed
00:22 a111 Logged on 2017-03-16 17:25 asciilifeform: iirc ben_vulpes set up a similar experiment ( lan miner ) a month or so ago, but i dun recall what came of it
00:22 ben_vulpes and with this bit of how the other half lives, i bid ye adieu: http://68.media.tumblr.com/2b2348d8f69c7d1dd8d1ba6b96358cf4/tumblr_omzwq2XTZI1vg6t4ko1_1280.jpg
00:27 BingoBoingo <doppler> I've seen that you ask it quite often << Are you sure it was him you saw asking?
00:29 shinohai I had to fill in during your absence BingoBoingo
00:29 shinohai But certainly moar log reading is in order.
00:30 trinque I'll be impressed when the "I'm just a dude" trope goes away.
00:30 trinque if so, what's with the demure intro
00:44 shinohai "Oh wow, we've never had just any dudes here"
00:45 BingoBoingo From the great justice files http://www.deseretnews.com/article/787926/Doctors-alcoholic-defense-frustrates-the-IRS.html
00:49 trinque We admitted we were powerless to give a shit about the IRS
00:49 trinque it checks out
00:50 BingoBoingo !~step9
00:50 jhvh1 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
00:51 BingoBoingo ^ Nothing about amends to non-people which would be injurious to actual people
~ 8 hours 35 minutes ~
09:26 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/D33126663C8161A8EF4DCCEAA5321D0CBF95441A3D35C0BAC2BAF6D2F4397C40 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1135...5527 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '177.234.11.75 (ssh-rsa key from 177.234.11.75 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown MX CHH)
09:26 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/71AF9594F2393F6AB85B14C1C615C449E8833966B1FA30A198C98FC36750B4C5 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1107...9569 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '177.234.1.161 (ssh-rsa key from 177.234.1.161 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown MX CHH)
09:26 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/D33126663C8161A8EF4DCCEAA5321D0CBF95441A3D35C0BAC2BAF6D2F4397C40 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1107...9569 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '177.234.11.75 (ssh-rsa key from 177.234.11.75 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown MX CHH)
09:26 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/71AF9594F2393F6AB85B14C1C615C449E8833966B1FA30A198C98FC36750B4C5 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1155...2443 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '177.234.1.161 (ssh-rsa key from 177.234.1.161 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown MX CHH)
~ 2 hours 2 minutes ~
11:29 shinohai !~ticker --market all
11:29 jhvh1 shinohai: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1046.62, vol: 9715.90190285 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1058.0, vol: 10542.53481 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1046.4, vol: 31965.72322665 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1036.93467, vol: 4979.26190000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1021.79, vol: 3648.79513829 | Volume-weighted last average: 1046.19464506
11:35 asciilifeform in other lulz, from the dept. of 'let's make a sham version of EVERYTHING discussed in #trilema', http://btcpowupdate.org
11:37 mircea_popescu lel
11:46 phf jeez, i like how they are not even trying. a bootstrap template one pager and a link to "bitcointalk thread"
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11:47 mircea_popescu hey, it works for the "domain name real estate" "investors" !!
~ 15 minutes ~
12:02 asciilifeform http://archive.is/NAyGm << linked from somewhere in this lul
12:06 * shinohai remembers the lukejr lulz
~ 42 minutes ~
12:49 BingoBoingo Which lulz, there are many with said rat
12:56 deedbot http://qntra.net/2017/03/armed-guard-at-german-grocer-kills-man-in-saint-louis/ << Qntra - Armed Guard At German Grocer Kills Man In Saint Louis
12:58 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629232 << trbi, with the fixed-length-everythings, needs ~no fancy indexer at all. it's for a hypothetical sane-trb.
12:58 a111 Logged on 2017-03-20 00:42 mod6: So I'll be getting into the thick of that very soon. Lot to do to get trb-i going.
13:00 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629256 << even reiser is almost certainly waste of time, general-purpose fs is very sharply the opposite of what we want, they are all optimized for mutability (can delete/rename/resize/etc) and fast reads at the expense of slow entity creation, as well as carrying out silent rebalances/defrags/etc.
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13:00 a111 Logged on 2017-03-20 00:58 mircea_popescu: also, we are not at wall : we saw ext4 ; did not see ext2 ; did not see reiserfs.
13:01 mircea_popescu you might well be right. i still wanna see them. there is no possibility to waste time by looking around.
13:01 asciilifeform hey general-purpose fs are still useful for... general-purpose life. nobody cancelled'em
13:01 BingoBoingo http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=7007
13:01 asciilifeform i'd enjoy reading honest benchmarks for 1st time in lfie
13:01 asciilifeform *life
13:02 mircea_popescu aha.
13:02 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629264 << how's that meant to work ? classical fat32 has no such animal as a symlink, for instance.
13:02 a111 Logged on 2017-03-20 01:00 mircea_popescu: we ~might~ even wish to see fat32/
13:03 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629270 << the magical powerz of low expectations!111
13:03 a111 Logged on 2017-03-20 01:03 mircea_popescu: i don't recall being as pissed off with fat32 at any point throughout the 90s as i've regularly been hence.
13:04 asciilifeform asciilifeform, however, remembers 'defragging.' and lost clusters. and various 'pleasures.'
13:04 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629267 << Framedragger did anybody ever in fact reverse-engineer microshit's 'exfat' ?
13:04 a111 Logged on 2017-03-20 01:02 Framedragger: mircea_popescu: oof, max fat32 size is 4gb, with a maximum of (to the tune of) hundreds of millions of files (less than 1bn); there's also exFAT of course, etc., but eugh
13:04 asciilifeform last i recall, nobody had.
13:04 mircea_popescu not afaik
13:04 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629271 << i actually like tapes, and wish that they were readily available today in useful sizes
13:04 a111 Logged on 2017-03-20 01:04 Framedragger: sure. my internal alfatron says "may as well test for tape backup storage system viability" though; surely it's inefficient to test *all* things in a domain that one is not optimistic to begin with. but i see your rationale of course
13:05 asciilifeform (4GB 4mm tape is not today price-competitive, much less time-is-money-competitive, with dvd-r)
13:05 asciilifeform and so my tape decks, once princely , gather dust.
13:07 Framedragger asciilifeform: iirc there are reverse-engineered implementations, yes, but whether they're any good is another q
13:07 asciilifeform Framedragger: better q imho would be - whether there is anything to be learned from these.
13:07 Framedragger https://github.com/relan/exfat ftr, e.g.
13:08 Framedragger yeah sure (and probably notrly)
13:08 asciilifeform ( i don't recall, in my entire working life, cribbing a useful, solid piece of technical knowhow from microshit. )
13:08 mircea_popescu directx.
13:08 Framedragger (https://github.com/relan/exfat/blob/master/libexfat/exfatfs.h#L40 e.g.)
13:08 phf a4 sized qr codes and sheet scanners
13:09 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: directx is simply a fruit of collusion with the gpu vendors, i see nothing innovative about it
13:09 mircea_popescu and the original dos.
13:09 asciilifeform the original dos was not created by microshit.
13:09 mircea_popescu you didn';t say "innovative"
13:09 mircea_popescu you said the fucking opposite.
13:09 asciilifeform 'useful, solid'
13:09 mircea_popescu knowhow. yes. directx.
13:10 Framedragger asciilifeform: you didn't feel any appreciation while reverse engineering rootkits targetting NT kernel? :) just curious
13:10 Framedragger i mean, towards NT kernel. boy i should recline now
13:10 asciilifeform Framedragger: 99+% of the malware samples i have ever laid hands on, were complete snoar
13:11 asciilifeform build in microshit vs, even. (this includes usg's, as was well laid out for exhibit in the latest dump)
13:11 asciilifeform *built in microshit
13:12 Framedragger yeahok.
13:15 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629306 << i know a d00d who paid with own money to renovate... flat he was living in. five figs (usd) even.
13:15 a111 Logged on 2017-03-20 03:34 ben_vulpes: asks the guy who developed a recreational habit of fixing other people's toilets in the most retarded corner of south america...
13:16 asciilifeform it made a perverse sense, 'yes someone else will get to eat it, eventually, but moving to a flat that already has all of this, will cost MORE , and forever'
13:17 mircea_popescu i dun see the problem, i do this with some regularity. get the landlord to eat > then your actual residual post amortisation you're golden.
13:17 asciilifeform landlord ate none of the cost, this is sop for peon housing
13:18 asciilifeform (peon is lucky to even get permission to repaint a wall)
13:18 mircea_popescu hahaha gtfo.
13:18 mircea_popescu wtf permission, what is this bs.
13:18 mircea_popescu o, wait, you have "corporation" landlords over there donntcha.
13:18 asciilifeform some people do
13:19 asciilifeform in the case in question, it was a human one
13:19 asciilifeform (90yo who owns a few dozen properties of various descriptions)
13:19 mircea_popescu so then, negotiate a deal, what.
13:19 asciilifeform i wasn't at their negotiation table, have nfi how it went.
13:20 asciilifeform (but can guess. peons have ~0 negotiating leverage.)
13:20 mircea_popescu i've yet to meet someone who lets as a living, even if part time, who wouldn't kill for a good tenant.
13:20 asciilifeform it's more or less the definition of peonage.
13:20 asciilifeform typically 'good tenant' is one who pays on time, and asks for repairs ~never.
13:21 mircea_popescu asciilifeform peons don't enter into it. the sort of captives in the consolidated shit of their own head who ask for a "solid, useful knowhow item" and then IMMEDIATELY retort "it isn't innovative" when such is presented, however... those doods have problems.
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13:21 mircea_popescu depends. irl good tenant is one who doesn't damage the property more than what he pays in rent.
13:22 mircea_popescu surprisingly rare a class, for some reason.
13:22 asciilifeform this is so.
13:22 trinque meatwot folks that own an apartment building have told horrific stories
13:22 trinque human shit on the walls in more than a few cases
13:22 mircea_popescu erryone has a few.
13:23 asciilifeform but also, as i learned experimentally, one that doesn't create 'work' for the owner. for instance, i went to a great many folx who were letting out houses, and they wouldn't hear of 'install dishwasher', even when offered 100% of the (not especially frightening) cost of this mod.
13:24 mircea_popescu well yeah, it's all in there in de "damage property", a very general understanding of "shit that makes my economic position worse"
13:24 asciilifeform they dun want to do 'work'. 'this hovel was good enough for the others, it oughta be good enough for you, if you won't take it there are 25 others who will'
13:24 mircea_popescu lol where the fuck are these 25 others ?
13:24 mircea_popescu i dunno there exista a place inthis world with 90% occupation. maybe beijing.
13:25 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: sometimes they showed up almost immediately ! as in, next day i call and 'oops sorry it was already snapped'
13:25 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: HOUSES have ~100% occupation, where i live.
13:25 mircea_popescu thishappens sometimes even in 10% occupied real estate cases.
13:25 asciilifeform (flats - not.)
13:25 mircea_popescu ugh. weren't we discussing rents ? wtf already.
13:25 asciilifeform rental houses.
13:25 asciilifeform understand, i shop in a market where the availability is ~0.
13:25 mircea_popescu um.
13:26 mircea_popescu i think the only place where you can properly speaking rent a house is ~europe
13:26 asciilifeform the flats folx have the other problem: typically the landlord is a corp and operates 'by 3ring binder'
13:26 asciilifeform (and quite certainly won't do mods, even if entire cost is covered)
13:26 mircea_popescu which cycles us right back to the earlier mmmkay.
13:26 * mircea_popescu is out of this.
13:27 asciilifeform mircea_popescu leases entire city blocks and probably operates in somewhat different planet.
13:28 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629499 << as i understand 'innovative' is a barf trigger word for mircea_popescu , but i don't know of a more appropriate word. if q is re 'what useful things did you lift from microshit', and someone suggests 'fat16', i can only answer 'it was not innovation, did not originate from the loins of microshit.'
13:28 a111 Logged on 2017-03-20 17:21 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform peons don't enter into it. the sort of captives in the consolidated shit of their own head who ask for a "solid, useful knowhow item" and then IMMEDIATELY retort "it isn't innovative" when such is presented, however... those doods have problems.
13:28 mircea_popescu a house technially is a city block. though they're generally called lots because not usually right in city. but anyway.
13:29 mircea_popescu who cares where it came from ? you did lift from them eh.
13:29 mircea_popescu or what, who else had the item.
13:29 asciilifeform pcdos, for instance.
13:29 mircea_popescu pdos had directx?
13:29 asciilifeform fat16 !
13:29 mircea_popescu sigh.
13:29 asciilifeform directx is not even A TECHNOLOGY, it's a proprietary microshit api
13:30 asciilifeform how would one go about lifting it ?
13:30 mircea_popescu look, turn it how you will. you got a serious hole in your brain. dun wanna fix it, fine, but that dun mean you don't have it. you do.
13:30 asciilifeform what useful piece can i cut out, and use outside of microshitistan ?
13:31 mircea_popescu not a matter of "oh, mp has allergies" ; not a matter of "check me out, i invented rhetorics and also i'm so smooth ima strawman all over! fat16!11" ; not a matter of anything else, there's no way out of it.
13:32 asciilifeform i'd genuinely like to know what mircea_popescu takes issue with in this thread
13:34 mircea_popescu 1. you asked for an item by stated criteria, were provided the item, pretended the item fails a criterion that is actually the opposite of your stated criteria ; 2. when confronted with your ridiculous misbehaviour, you attempted to replace the item with a different item and show you can defeat the different item.
13:34 mircea_popescu there's more, but a coupla suffice.
13:34 asciilifeform i stand by the statement: nothing which is original in microshitistan, is any good; and any which is good in microshitistan, is not the least bit original.
13:34 mircea_popescu i suppose we can add 3, "once 1 and 2 are on the table, take refuge in contradictory schemes". there is no such thing as original technology. for something to be a technology it must be unoriginal. original shit is called literature.
13:35 asciilifeform if mircea_popescu wants to inhabit a mental universe where 'there is no such thing as original technology' and xerox parc circa 1970s is exactly same thing as microshit today -- i can't possibly stop him.
13:36 mircea_popescu bitcoin is morerover a fine example in this vein. it's pretty fucking original.
13:36 phf "How come he doesn't know it? Because he's got flies in his eyes. How can he see he's got flies in his eyes if he's got flies in his eyes?"
13:36 mircea_popescu and it's original throughout. check out those novel data structures~!
13:37 mircea_popescu asciilifeform give an example of this original technology and i'll just say "no pcdos" at it.
13:37 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: introducing the nonsensical 'original throughout' device ( nobody else, incl asciilifeform , had ) does not help mircea_popescu's argument
13:38 mircea_popescu interestinf approach, but twas merely an example, not an argument as such.
13:38 mircea_popescu i'm not saying "x is y because bitcoin" i'm saying "x is y and btw, check out bitcoin lulz."
13:38 trinque gotta be able to admit one's political bias plainly, or it warps like so. "microshit is evil therefore I will ignore their output" is not the same as "factually they never once built a thing"
13:39 mircea_popescu he has a point in that they leveraged horizonals in the market to get data.
13:39 mircea_popescu but they did fucking get it, and used it, and for a decade they owned gfx.
13:39 mircea_popescu course opengl also owned it the next decade, and did even less with it.
13:39 asciilifeform trinque: funnily enough, i spend a good chunk of my waking hours 'not ignoring' microshit's output, i earn bread by juggling microshitiana (dealing with, from various directions, malware)
13:40 trinque yeah so you hate it even more then
13:40 trinque lol
13:40 trinque "I have to stare into this thing's asshole 8 hours a day"
13:40 mircea_popescu other part of the problem is that it's too large a corp. their kernel ppl and their directx people were pretty much as related as samsung and apple.
13:40 deedbot http://qntra.net/2017/03/relics-of-american-great-again-found-in-mexico/ << Qntra - Relics Of American "Great Again" Found In Mexico
13:40 asciilifeform trinque: understand, i would much ~like~ to find something stimulating, inside that arse
13:40 mircea_popescu o shait, invasion time BingoBoingo ?
13:40 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the problem is they never got lucky with that hole.
13:40 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Maybe. Serious intl incident material!
13:41 * mircea_popescu would like to see a us-mexico war v3 ? v4 ?
13:41 mircea_popescu good to periodically fight the same neighbour, keeps the spirit stimulated.
13:41 mircea_popescu teh russians know.
13:41 trinque not much airpower there, but probably amply more "asymmetric warfare" inclination
13:42 mircea_popescu trinque the mexican "deep state" has been living in this situation where beheaded chief of police weekly.
13:42 mircea_popescu they're a lot tougher than the us counterparts by now.
13:42 trinque aha, meanwhile americans wilt when a building comes down
13:43 * BingoBoingo thinks v3, but unsure. Would be v4 if Zimmermann telegram, but if Zimmermann telegram would have moved Mexico to act, American might instead be looking towards The Great Already
13:43 mircea_popescu im sure they'll send the late night circuit comedians. what could anyone do to that.
13:43 mircea_popescu the charge of the sarah silverman brigade.
13:44 asciilifeform mexican-war-with-usa makes approx as much sense as pirate war against spanish crown
13:45 mircea_popescu hey, ~same as afghanistan but closer. save on fuel, be green.
13:45 mircea_popescu planet will thankya.
13:45 BingoBoingo !~bash3
13:45 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Error: "bash3" is not a valid command.
13:45 asciilifeform (what'd make the pirates turn into a navy ? and whattodo after victory, and there are no moar galleons to take gold off?)
13:45 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you can swear allegiance to the flag of the united nationx of mexico just as well. can even save the original two words of the whole signage
13:45 trinque ah I could see the same thing as turkey and EU with mexico down the road
13:46 mircea_popescu trinque mexico's no turkey though.
13:46 trinque they get flooded with venezuelans or w/e
13:46 trinque threaten to send 'em over
13:46 mircea_popescu ah totally.
13:49 mircea_popescu anyway. typically pirate war against the crown wants you know, the fortress of martinique. and gibraltar.
13:49 asciilifeform aha!
13:49 mircea_popescu kinda ~same as "fight for freedom" of strategically placed nothings.
13:49 mircea_popescu taiwan, what have you
13:49 asciilifeform i can entirely see mexicans taking a specific-something.
13:49 mircea_popescu yeah, gate to texas, gate to cali, that sorta thing. hook the white girl's knees spread nice and wide, what.
13:52 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629328 << these are surprisingly great 'cpu for the dollar', because ~severely~ underpriced , even for a junk market item : they're ~entirely worthless to mactards who would 'use as printed on the box', because last 7 or so crapple os versions will refuse to run on it. but potentially very valuable for, e.g., bsd user.
13:52 a111 Logged on 2017-03-20 03:45 ben_vulpes: no, specifically the macintosh ppc g5's
13:52 trinque they run openbsd great
13:52 mircea_popescu ah that's a pretty great point huh.
13:52 mircea_popescu nice alternative to the linux-on-amd freezeout
13:53 asciilifeform and unlike, e.g., most sun boxes, they have normal 'earthling' pci, and reasonably obtainable sdram.
13:53 trinque people are selling the minis like they're worth their weight in trash
13:53 asciilifeform trinque: there was a g5 'mini' ?!
13:53 trinque no, g4
13:53 asciilifeform aah
13:53 trinque but 10 of them in a stack beats "containers"
13:54 asciilifeform g4 was not impressive imho, no 64bitness.
13:54 asciilifeform you're stuck with 4GB.
13:54 asciilifeform i threw out my g4s.
13:54 trinque I've found uses for them, but also have several of the g5 towers and the imac g5
13:55 mircea_popescu can be a router or w/e
13:55 trinque aha
13:55 trinque mail, whatever
13:55 trinque doesn't need gigs of ram and 64bit
13:55 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: no GBe -- not , imho, any kind of router.
13:55 mircea_popescu ah there is that.
13:57 asciilifeform trinque: for 'microscopic task but needs own box', i prefer something more like pogo, which is fanless, solidstate, and zero-maintenance. vs ancient clunking monster , howling like vacuum cleaner and filled with dying mechanical hdds
13:57 mircea_popescu course depends what you have installed. plenty of places on mbit cable, no fiber, no plans to ever fiber.
13:57 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: even there, 0 reason for lan to be anything but GB
13:57 mircea_popescu but yes, fanless pogo has some major mojo
13:57 trinque so lan sits on gigabit switch
13:57 trinque but cable modem is not >100, not nearly
13:57 mircea_popescu asciilifeform well, 1 reason : you got a g4 lol
13:58 trinque also what's this "one router"
13:58 mircea_popescu trinque i got some 100 MBps pipes, but yeah, can't just pop a random 50 whatever from radio shack on me
13:58 mircea_popescu em*
13:58 trinque my modem's 300 but try getting a connection like that in the tx burbs
13:59 trinque moving downtown though, so maybe I can get something a little less barbaric
14:00 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629345 << eventually happens to everything. as per, even, the 'regression to mean' thread.
14:00 a111 Logged on 2017-03-20 03:49 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it occurs to me, btw, that the scam whereby people who were holding jobs shares were converted to cook shares is one of the cruelest things in nature.
14:00 trinque asciilifeform: pointedly they lack the "management engine" shit put in later CPUs
14:00 trinque or giant honking EFI
14:00 asciilifeform trinque: my 6502 also lacks 'management engine'
14:00 trinque oh, same thing eh?
14:01 asciilifeform but you can in fact get 64bit machines with 0 blobolade.
14:01 asciilifeform the very same alphas, for instance.
14:01 trinque or... g5
14:01 asciilifeform the (classical, not the rebranded x86 idiocy) sgi ones, also
14:01 asciilifeform the g5.
14:02 asciilifeform the g4 however is approx as useful as old p3.
14:02 asciilifeform ( do you pick up p3 when someone throws out ? i -- no longer do )
14:02 trinque runs (for example) a test server for deedbot just fine
14:02 asciilifeform i'm sure it does
14:03 trinque and burn minimal power
14:03 trinque yes, not going to phuctor on it
14:03 asciilifeform but not only do i actually pay per kWatt/hr here (in summer time : TWICE: again to remove the waste heat!) and have quite limited space, but there are only so many p3 you can hang off ups.
14:03 trinque but will perform various tasks of a household
14:03 asciilifeform and n+1st ups is several $k usd.
14:04 trinque holy shit I just said
14:04 trinque 32W
14:04 trinque idle
14:04 asciilifeform trinque: which box was this
14:04 trinque the mini g4
14:04 asciilifeform aah
14:04 trinque they cron-inate and whatnot
14:04 * asciilifeform puts on list of 'to not leave in dumpster, if seen in one'
14:05 mircea_popescu lol
14:05 mircea_popescu it's a wonder you don't drive a ford pickup
14:05 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i'd own a dump truck with a crane -- if had where to keep it.
14:05 mircea_popescu well... move to texas. you can get crane garage there
14:06 asciilifeform one of these days i must go there.
14:06 asciilifeform ( it is, for instance, where the pet was born. )
14:06 trinque neato
14:06 trinque I have a feeling you'd tolerate the people a bit moar than DC
14:06 asciilifeform probably.
14:07 mircea_popescu either that or get shot.
14:07 asciilifeform i can get shot for free here!111
14:08 mircea_popescu not the same thing if white man does it.
14:09 asciilifeform tru, classier. perhaps i can be shot in a proper saloon, next to a spittoon.
14:10 mircea_popescu i first read "next to a stripper"
14:10 mircea_popescu then i noticed it didnt say stripper.
14:10 mircea_popescu why not!
14:10 asciilifeform also not a bad place!
14:11 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/7C9A79279C6DD69B5BAEA5FD7DBC0347F4206583C96398C75146635ED3D1D446 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1646...2357 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '160.80.1.232 (ssh-rsa key from 160.80.1.232 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (ipsc2.ccda.uniroma2.it. IT RM 62)
14:11 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/7C9A79279C6DD69B5BAEA5FD7DBC0347F4206583C96398C75146635ED3D1D446 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1728...7809 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '160.80.1.232 (ssh-rsa key from 160.80.1.232 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (ipsc2.ccda.uniroma2.it. IT RM 62)
14:11 * mircea_popescu tries for a few minutes in vain to turn the strange habit of porn actors of spitting into gaping assholes into some kind of a spittoon joke, gives up
14:11 mircea_popescu i'm losing my edge!
14:12 asciilifeform !$ ssh 160.80.1.232
14:12 scriba ssh banner of 160.80.1.232 as seen on 2016-06-13: SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_4.3p2 Debian-9
~ 24 minutes ~
14:36 asciilifeform quite unrelatedly, asciilifeform went through own and relatives' dwellings with geiger counter and turned up one of those 'barbaric' radium-dialed clocks (zinc sulphide long ago decayed, so no light, but mighty gamma.)
↖
14:37 asciilifeform and this reminded me, did mircea_popescu ever write a piece re the 'radium girls' ? the ones that licked the brushes and rotted. they are brought up as darlings of the 'unions' era, 'wurker's rights', etc. but in actuality they not only licked the brushes but painted own lips, nails, jewelry, etc.
14:40 mircea_popescu i thnk i must've.
14:40 asciilifeform can haz link ?
14:40 mircea_popescu also the dork selling "Radium wateR"
14:40 mircea_popescu lessee
14:41 Framedragger don't forget radium "shines at night!" toothpaste
14:42 mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/2010/corporatiile-si-responsabilitatea/#selection-33.0-33.93 << ro as it turns out.
14:42 asciilifeform neato, ty midnightmagic
14:42 asciilifeform rrr
14:42 asciilifeform mircea_popescu
14:43 * asciilifeform thinks the default behaviour of 'tab complete' in this irctron is quite ridiculous
14:44 mircea_popescu alphabetic order neh ?
14:44 mircea_popescu should it count your references ?
14:44 asciilifeform imho sanity would be to sort by lines-in-past-N-minute
14:44 mircea_popescu count references in scrollback ?
14:44 asciilifeform with exponential decay.
14:44 asciilifeform aha
14:45 mircea_popescu tbh, the intensive referential way we use irc is entirely... original
14:45 mircea_popescu never before in the history of this tech has a trilema existed
14:45 asciilifeform afaik.
~ 37 minutes ~
15:22 deedbot http://www.contravex.com/2017/03/20/aapl-stock-fraud-cca-2011/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - AAPL stock fraud cca. 2011
~ 29 minutes ~
15:51 shinohai White supremacists are getting darker these days: http://archive.is/cYb2B
~ 55 minutes ~
16:46 mircea_popescu in other lulz, the state of casual gaming is completely fucked up. so other than utter throwaways, stuff that looks like someone's undegrad project, the ~entire market of ipad-likes (stuff that works in the browser, or else via a "light" client for windows/mac, or else as a ipad/android etc app) is wholly like this :
↖ ↖
16:47 mircea_popescu 1. the company (say r2games, there's a few but identical entirely) hires out a bunch of cubical drones, has them churn out a "game" to 3-ring binder spec. you prolly know the shit, stamina-constellations-etc.
16:48 mircea_popescu there's major reuse, the "voices" of characters in "different" games often end up the same digital asset etc.
16:49 mircea_popescu 2. the "social media platform" (say, g2arcade, there's a bunch but identical entirely) make a whitelabel with the company, pushes the game on "its" users (the catch being that they try to get the user to use their "accounts" rather than the company's -- and there's a lot of utterly corporate-like entrenchment around this topic.)
16:51 mircea_popescu 3. the "payment platform" (all of these work on micropayments, obv) is a wrapper style thing (say, paymentwall, but there's at least 500 entirely identical items vying for a pie $lice with absolutely no distinction whatsoever) processes cards and also links to a pile of... i don'\t even know what these are. looks a lot like the silver age of porn really, early 2000s, where the various paysites kept trying to push each other.
16:52 mircea_popescu so gtarcade -> r2games -> paymentwall -> paypal/qiwiwallet/unipin wallet/webmoney/indomog/cherry credits/mycard/mol (money online -- fucking george constanza lives i swear) and so on and so forth.
16:52 mircea_popescu this is the "digital economy".
16:52 mircea_popescu it's literally like watching flies fuck.
16:53 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: was 'casual came' at any point -- in its ~commercial~ ( vs tetrises, alexey pajitnov ) phase of life -- ever anything other than this ?
16:53 ben_vulpes BingoBoingo: "the jerseys" "was located"
16:54 mircea_popescu yes. at some glorious point in the 90s it was ~same as a bar. you went with your friends to a dedicated bit of real estate.
16:54 mircea_popescu !~google "book of the gord"
16:54 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: Acts of Gord : Love the Gord , Fear the Gord: <http://www.actsofgord.com/>; Acts of Gord - The Book of Annoyances: <http://www.actsofgord.com/Annoy/>; Acts of Gord - The Book of Apocalypse: <http://www.actsofgord.com/apocalypse/>
16:54 mircea_popescu ^ rather typical exponent.
16:56 BingoBoingo ben_vulpes: ty fxd
16:56 asciilifeform dunno that it makes sense to deal with coin arcades and 'konsoomer'-portable gamez, as same animal
16:56 mircea_popescu and why not ?
16:56 asciilifeform arcades were a social activity, only partially about the game itself.
16:56 mircea_popescu the missing link is the attempted "ipad-powered restaurant" by that idiot from consumer computing, that we discussed here.
16:57 mircea_popescu these are EXACTLY the same thing ; the arcade and the ipad exist because ameritards exist because oil was a thing and pittsburg was a thinbg before that etc.
16:57 mircea_popescu it's like disco but for the 90s.
16:57 mircea_popescu no longer looking to get laid, but still the same herbivore beasts.
16:58 mircea_popescu asciilifeform no but see ... this crap is also .. .only partially about the game itself. they... got accounts!1
16:58 mircea_popescu \wouldn't you like to link your facebook profile ? for security ? and etc ?
16:59 * trinque hears the gushing of printed money into the abyss
16:59 asciilifeform i actually have ~0 idea what specifically supports the 'mainstream' commercial existence of the ipad. (as in the old ebay thread with mircea_popescu , it turns out that asciilifeform's uses for various items are often quite nonstandard )
16:59 trinque mine serves to play a ported Riven at the moment, otherwise sits at bottom of a drawer
17:00 trinque might be the only actual gaming use for such a thing, the point and click adventure games
17:00 trinque originally released in 1997 btw
17:00 asciilifeform i haven't met a likable touchpad game, yet
17:00 asciilifeform in just about every case 'i wish i had a mouse, why is my cursor finger-sized'
17:00 trinque well, those descended-from-hypercard games are basically tap all over the place, touch works fine
17:01 mircea_popescu ^
17:01 asciilifeform yeah but they were generally made for mouse.
17:01 asciilifeform i tried once to play various 'scummvm' classics on a patched ipad, it was blergh
17:01 mircea_popescu there's browser versions for most if not all of them
17:01 asciilifeform 'i want to click on the pirate, not the beer mug'
17:02 mircea_popescu anyway, if you're curious, visit the offerings of the mentioned. "league of angels" "battle for kingdom" "throne of throne" "legend of story" they've a few hundred of such field-appropriate thesaurus permutations.
17:03 mircea_popescu none of them have clickable blocks smaller than about a child's fist anyway.
17:03 trinque the malinvestment called zynga caused it, more or less
17:03 asciilifeform 'extruded product'
17:03 asciilifeform quite like american 'food', 'films'...
17:04 mircea_popescu trinque not an expert other than by need ; but i suspect zynga is a different strand. these are the azn "fantasy" offerings, wanna-be d2 and h3, by the looks of them.
17:04 mircea_popescu and they do try to be all respectable, there's always a "arrow to the knee" reference and so. entirely chinese type of idiocy.
17:04 mircea_popescu whereas the zynga stuff is more in the vein of eve and such things, clearly made by and for project managers.
17:05 trinque the "social media 'gaming'" thing though, was large part them. many of their games bolted directly to facebook, i.e. inside the thing
17:05 ben_vulpes the moo3 rewrite for touchscreen isn't a...bad...rewrite...
17:05 asciilifeform https://archive.is/BiywN << obligatory.
17:05 ben_vulpes touchscreens are just woefully inadequate devices for complexity mgmt.
17:06 mircea_popescu trinque yeah. there's one actually ingenious strand, that somewhat straddles the zynga-likes and the r2-likes : the eggers, you know those ?
17:06 trinque then it was race to the bottom in terms of easiest yes, extruded product, to bolt to facebook
17:06 trinque I do not
17:06 mircea_popescu the fundamental mechanic being that you have animals which you gotta mate and then raise the eggs and you can get varying stuff out of the eggs and etc.
↖
17:06 shinohai No surprise the cattle wish to play Farmville
17:07 trinque oh yeah, gets women to go "oh cute" for 5min
17:07 mircea_popescu see, the zinga/eve/fb games are all timers, basically. clicjk here to start a timer is the whole proposition.
17:07 ben_vulpes i'm in the habit of installing gb/gba emulators on my friends ipnohes
17:07 trinque controls are butts
17:07 ben_vulpes apple borks the thing remotely within a month
17:07 ben_vulpes every time
17:07 mircea_popescu whereas the r2 games are "stamina" games. ie, basic dungeon costs 6 and "elite dungeon" (whatever) costs 12 and you have 100 or 200 and get 12 a minute.
17:07 ben_vulpes nevertheless, the response is "holy fuck, i haven't had this much fun playing games on my phone...ever!"
17:07 trinque I played through wizards and warriors on ipnoje
17:07 ben_vulpes "yeah, and now how pissed are you at apple?"
17:07 mircea_popescu what is gb ?
17:07 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: at one point (the last time asciilifeform gave half a shit, 2010 or so) it was considered ~impossible to get an emulator of whatever kind, past the censors
17:08 Framedragger correlate gameplay to 'personality traits' => political 'lifestyles' (bernays and all modern 'voter-shaping' organizations) => sell data => $?
17:08 trinque mircea_popescu: gameboy
17:08 mircea_popescu oh oh.
17:08 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: well you don't go through the censors obvs
17:08 * mircea_popescu never got into that.
17:08 ben_vulpes "i'm going to put a fun thing on your phone. apple will break it within the month, because they're assholes."
17:08 mircea_popescu Framedragger i suppose that's what they tell "investor" suckers to get them to pay out.
17:08 ben_vulpes it's an educational project, asciilifeform .
17:08 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: how would crapple break a properly jailbroken box ?
17:08 asciilifeform in every case it is the luser who breaks (by 'ooh i'ma UPDATE!111')
17:08 mircea_popescu truth be told ~most of this crap is paid for by consumer-"investors" rather than by their kids spending $2 to "recharge"
17:08 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: users don't get a choice any more, not really
17:09 ben_vulpes also these devices are not properly jailbroken
17:09 trinque there's an emulator snuck through apple approval processes every now and then
17:09 mircea_popescu it's not even very clear they wish to play. plenty are quite happy watching other dudes play and stream it live.
17:09 ben_vulpes "here's a taste of life as curated by the competent, aren't you mad at the fake lifestyle you've been fed?"
17:09 phf you can install scummvm on an ipad without jailbreaking
17:09 mircea_popescu which incidentally reminds me of how poor kids "played" in the 90s too.
17:09 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: aaah 'soft' jailbreak, was it, 'till next reboot'
17:09 ben_vulpes not eve, just 'sideload'
17:09 ben_vulpes not even*
17:09 asciilifeform phf: that must be new/recent
17:10 phf it was always the case. you deploye whatever custom app through standard xcode/blah infrastructure. you can't do it as a casual of course
17:10 asciilifeform phf: ah those.
17:11 asciilifeform iirc (again when i last had a crapple dev acct) there was a limit, was it, 100 (?) boxes of 'sideload' per acct.
17:11 asciilifeform so was never a mass thing.
17:11 asciilifeform and the signature would be good for a few wks at most.
17:11 ben_vulpes you can self-sign trivially these days.
17:12 ben_vulpes what does it take to actually xcode these days? 100us/yr still?
17:12 asciilifeform 0idea
17:12 asciilifeform i thought ben_vulpes was the iphonist
17:13 ben_vulpes 'iphonist' === 'click the ok and fix issue button'
17:13 asciilifeform back in ye olden days, it was 100.
17:13 mircea_popescu i think it's 50 now
17:13 phf relatedly, aquaria is a neat action adventure for ipad. i think that's the only ipad game i actually enjoyed, though it's not particularly creative. swim around enjoy pretty art
17:14 * mircea_popescu despises "games" without mechanics.
17:17 ben_vulpes upstack, trinque asciilifeform y'figure the g5's will only take a bsd? i've got a pile of links for 'linux on g5', but have yet to start sucking the spittoon down. would rather know if actually impossible up front.
17:17 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: iirc trinque is the go-to man re g5.
17:17 asciilifeform and possibly BingoBoingo .
17:17 asciilifeform i don't even presently have 1.
17:18 ben_vulpes no reason one couldn't compile a kernel for it, right?
17:18 asciilifeform could!
17:18 * ben_vulpes halfway looking forward to the next gentoo quest
17:18 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629753 << the world of 'neuro-typical' folx who have 'no theorems to prove', and nothing with which to legitimately to busy themselves, is ugly indeed. these people oughta be occupied with raising ~actual~ chickens etc.
17:18 a111 Logged on 2017-03-20 21:06 mircea_popescu: the fundamental mechanic being that you have animals which you gotta mate and then raise the eggs and you can get varying stuff out of the eggs and etc.
17:19 ben_vulpes breeding chickens is a thing with which to legitimately busy oneself.
17:19 phf both trinque and bingoboingo are bsd people, so that's probably why. i ran linux on g3-g5 2000-2010
17:19 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: well yes!
17:19 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: thread was re 'simulated chicken farmings'
17:19 ben_vulpes oh oh
17:19 ben_vulpes well more likely they have not the land with which.
17:19 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: imho it is a waste, these folx could quite enjoy life as ~actual~ chicken handlers
17:19 ben_vulpes even plants likely beyond those folks.
17:20 asciilifeform aha
17:20 mircea_popescu asciilifeform this one is a particular gem, conceptually, in the vein of that romanian "s-o-ntilnit prostu' cu hotu'" (ie, "the thief and the idiot met", shorthand for a certain sort of narrow horizon happiness). ie, "oh, this egg takes EIGHT hours to hatch! that one 24!! it's so much better!!11
17:20 mircea_popescu how to sell pe
17:20 mircea_popescu ople on the notion of hanging around waiting for timers.
17:20 trinque ben_vulpes: putting a gentoo on one would not be a waste of time
17:20 mircea_popescu very VERY anthropologically interesting.
17:20 asciilifeform trinque: consider publishing a recipe
17:20 trinque I haven't one, is why
17:20 asciilifeform aah
17:20 trinque my gentoos are x86-64
17:21 trinque not that it should be terribly difficult once you figure out launching whichever bootloader from openfirmware, iirc yaboot
17:21 asciilifeform trinque: all of the iron is documented/driverized by nao ?
17:21 asciilifeform ( asciilifeform has nfi )
17:21 ben_vulpes kinda the working theory, we'll see how it holds up in battle.
17:21 mircea_popescu asciilifeform anyway, they COULD NOT enjoy life as chicken handlers, because they'd do dumb shit. there's a reason situation with 1k droolers with chicken coop 20 chickens each turned into 1 chicken farm, 20k chickens, designed by 1, ran by 10, and 989 droolers on ipads waiting for the counter to count down.
17:22 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i thought the reason was petro->chickenfeed conversion and economics of scale.
17:22 mircea_popescu i do not believe so.
17:22 mircea_popescu the reason is the failure of the workforce to keep up with the complexity of scientifico-technical world.
17:23 mircea_popescu note that in any industry, it is LABOR that is the killer cost, not MATERIALS.
17:23 mircea_popescu this imo disposes of the dispute.
17:23 asciilifeform i am still thinking about the 'radium girls' mircea_popescu . for some reason most 'left'-flavoured historians don't mention the fact that they were paid 2-3x the market rate for 'generic unskilled gurl'
17:23 asciilifeform and did quite easy work. what, not 1 of them wondered 'why' ?
17:23 mircea_popescu "where can i find a guy who is safe to work in a datacenter ?" "where 1% of the 1% gather", doublespoken as "for 100k a year".
17:24 asciilifeform the radium girl was exactly mircea_popescu's 'twerker': 'value extracted from marginal'
17:24 mircea_popescu asciilifeform they all wondered and they all had an answer. guess the answerr ?
17:24 asciilifeform 'because oooh hey i need to paint my lips again'
17:24 mircea_popescu nah. "i'm totally worth it ; because i'm just that good ; because i'm special ; because i'm too dumb to realise how trite i am."
17:24 asciilifeform aaaah.
17:24 trinque she found the one trick they don't wnat you to know
17:25 mircea_popescu look at all the "bitcoin ceos". i ask them this... and they think... i insulted them.
17:25 mircea_popescu trinque found it, licked it.
17:25 mircea_popescu chucka sleeps warm in the taiga tonight.
17:25 mircea_popescu and tomorrow -- it's jawtime!
17:25 asciilifeform btw i recently heard that the 'last radium gurl' died in 2014. apparently there are folx who are unkillable even by it.
17:26 mircea_popescu radiation is noxious not toxic. it culls the herd, doesn't end it.
17:26 asciilifeform she could've been valuable experimental subject for the radioprotectant pharama folx (never heard of'em ? subj went out of style, at least publicly, in 1970s afaik)
17:26 asciilifeform *pharma
17:26 mircea_popescu in fact, there's quite nothing in chemistry like radiation. all poisons eventually kill everyone as you increase the dosage. even water. radiation however...
17:27 asciilifeform dunno that the 'hormesis' hypothesis ever panned out
17:27 asciilifeform in either direction
17:27 mircea_popescu sure it did. most therapy is based on toxic agents.
17:27 mircea_popescu paracetamol extends your life plenty.
17:27 asciilifeform no, specifically 'radiation hormesis'
17:27 mircea_popescu oh that, definitely not.
17:27 mircea_popescu in some cancers, but even then dubious as all hell.
17:28 asciilifeform as in 'creatures evolved with a detectable background, they NEED it' or, in weaker form, 'it does 0 to them'
17:28 mircea_popescu nobody needs it. then again, background radiation does ~0, give or take a few cancers
17:29 asciilifeform what even counts as 'background'. fun exercise is to take ordinary geiger and try in a room with -- then without -- people.
17:29 asciilifeform notice the difference.
17:29 mircea_popescu then - without adobe brick.
17:29 asciilifeform Sr-90 in bones.
17:29 asciilifeform (~everyone born after '45)
17:30 mircea_popescu yeah, this is a good point, huh.
17:30 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: cinderblock (usa) is a champ. followed by 'fancy' tiles (granite, various)
17:30 mircea_popescu "they don't make 'em like they used to" "well, they didn't use to have to use sr-90 / ca-40 mix!"
17:30 asciilifeform aha
17:30 asciilifeform recall the thread re the cathedral roofs ?
17:31 asciilifeform ( http://btcbase.org/log/2015-05-01#1117527 , possibly elsewhere )
17:31 a111 Logged on 2015-05-01 03:02 asciilifeform: re: how, famously, semiconductor folks used to buy up medieval lead roofs from cathedrals, etc. to get low-rad material
17:31 mircea_popescu cinderblock ie, "wouldn't you like to lvie in a hut made of concentrated furnace waste" ?
17:31 asciilifeform notably nobody ever gets asked 'wouldja like to...'
17:32 asciilifeform the waste -- WILL be used. to build.
17:32 asciilifeform and plebes -- will inhabit.
17:33 asciilifeform ( most americans live in cardboard dwellings. but they work, shop, idle about, in cinderblock walls. )
17:33 asciilifeform ditto blocks of flats.
17:33 asciilifeform (typically outside wall -- pressed ash, complete with thorium, yes)
17:34 trinque I can't think of any better use for that.
17:34 trinque lol
17:36 ben_vulpes likelihood of earthquakes makes for robust buildings where i live
17:36 trinque thorium in the walls is right up there with mircea_popescu's http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629337
17:36 a111 Logged on 2017-03-20 03:47 mircea_popescu: imagine if in a few years the actual fucking chunks of metal are the point of worship. "oh man, that's tech! who can make straight angles anymore!"
17:37 trinque ben_vulpes: ah nothing will stand up through the next big san andreas fault slip
17:37 ben_vulpes trinque: not usably, no
17:37 asciilifeform to maybe revisit upstack, some folx 'marginal' and have very little to offer economically other than 'morts', 'willing to clear mines', 'clean melted reactor'
17:37 ben_vulpes but won't kill quite so many folks this time.
17:38 asciilifeform and who is to even say who they are. programmer, growing sclerotic in his chair, does he die more slowly than the radium girl ?
17:38 asciilifeform or any less dead.
17:41 trinque but I don't think the person's reasoning involves their uselessness
17:41 trinque quite the contrary
17:41 trinque what loser did you ever meet who was solidly convinced of the truth?
~ 32 minutes ~
18:13 mircea_popescu asciilifeform on contemplation, the need-radiation organisms are probably bacteria. i imagine it figures heftily in the "endless adaptability of life on earth" for anything with short (subweek ?) cycles. from coprophyta to drosophila, most of the biomass.
18:14 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: tricky, conflates 'individual needs' with 'species needs'
18:14 asciilifeform quite elementarily 'species -- needs', otherwise ~0 mutation and ~0 adaptation to changing environs
18:14 mircea_popescu myeah. though if it's proper to speak of you as individual, why exactly not of 1 bn worth of bacterial cells together ?
18:14 mircea_popescu what, special because glued ?
18:15 mircea_popescu (this is just a play on the fundamental fact that THERE IS NO MEANING IN NATURE. there's no such thing as "people" or "individual" or "life" or "god" etc irl. all psychogenic noise, the happenstance branches of your own process of organizing the exterior, unrelated to the exterior.)
18:15 asciilifeform normally 'special' because 'specialized multi-cell organs', rather than simply 'glued'
18:15 mircea_popescu orly.
18:16 asciilifeform speaking strictly of the elementary diff b/w 'man and fungus'
18:16 mircea_popescu shorthand merely.
18:16 asciilifeform 0 to do with the psychiatric 'i'm speshul!' tho.
18:16 mircea_popescu well, very little to do, let's say
18:16 mircea_popescu naught besides the obvious "happens in a head".
18:17 asciilifeform but does relate to the radiation thing, deinococcus radiodurans laughs at dose that's thermonuke every other living thing, but it very much helps that one deinococcus radiodurans is readily 'fungible', will substitute for any other in the dish.
18:18 asciilifeform whereas if instead of dish you have a mouse, having such things as white cells, liver, other 'specialized parts', then considerably higher bar.
18:18 mircea_popescu not EXACTLY. just, substitute to your standards.
18:20 asciilifeform ( it is not even really correct to say 'one bacterium readily stands in for another', the dish does not live and die 'as group' )
18:21 mircea_popescu myeah.
18:21 mircea_popescu nor, for that matter, do you.
18:21 asciilifeform aha -- interestingly, ~90% of a freshly dead mouse, or man, is 'alive'
18:21 mircea_popescu ~no cells present at your birth are still there, seems to not bother your sense of identity.
18:21 asciilifeform if it could walk away !
18:22 asciilifeform some folx have finicky and easily bothered 'senses of identity'. not i
18:22 mircea_popescu so then you know, arbitrarily defined cell collection is arbitrarily defined cell collection. hoop.
18:23 asciilifeform (i'd quite happily walk into the mythical teleporter, for instance.)
18:24 trinque I dunno what changes there distinct from you falling asleep in one spot, being moved 5ft over, and waking up
18:24 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: again, not 'arbitrary' for purpose of subj , put a bullet ( or dose of gamma, or whatnot ) through bacterial culture, and it closes the hole in a few hrs, and who could say there ever was a hole. but try same hole through mouse, or man.
18:24 mircea_popescu depending on hole, ~same.
18:25 trinque man does the same at scale
18:25 mircea_popescu your girl got earrings yes ?
18:25 trinque blow up berlin, later, no hole
18:25 mircea_popescu also trinque's. gotta use large enough dishes.
18:25 asciilifeform trinque: uniquely bad example, ww1+2 put a very permanent, i suspect, hole through 'euro civilization'
18:25 asciilifeform that will not likely close, it'll be pushing up the flowers.
18:26 mircea_popescu just like the mongols did.
18:26 asciilifeform it'll close strictly in the 'hunchback will straighten in his grave' sense.
18:26 mircea_popescu europe is eternal, unlike africa, americas etc. a lot like china, actually.
18:26 asciilifeform well the geological europe aint going anywhere, no
18:27 trinque asciilifeform: same sloshing of equilibrium when you kill those bacteria, depending on which you got
18:27 asciilifeform 'отряд не заметил потери бойца' (tm) (r)
18:29 asciilifeform somehow i suspect that when mircea_popescu gets into an airplane, he would like to find that it has triply- or higher- redundant avionics system, rather than 'oh it is redundant because if this one goes down, there will be another plane, with some other bloke in it, some other day, dun worry.'
18:29 mircea_popescu lel
18:30 mircea_popescu yes, mp so likes. but this is special pleading. mp also likes women, bacteria dishes, boys in this order.
18:30 asciilifeform and yes, stalin famously uttered the sage wisdom, 'we ain't got any nonreplaceable people here'
18:30 asciilifeform (which sadly was not so, he turned out... nonreplaceable, himself.)
18:30 mircea_popescu nobody with a name is replaceable. this follows from the definitions.
18:31 asciilifeform (i wonder if stevejobs ever claimed 'we ain't got any nonreplaceables')
18:31 mircea_popescu "why did you put the label on the jar, mr rutherford ?" "to distinguish it from another jar."
18:31 mircea_popescu "does that mean the other jar couldn't then replace this one ?" "that's EXACTLY what it means!"
18:31 asciilifeform y'know, many folx name comps/autos/rifles/etc.
18:32 asciilifeform still fungibles.
18:32 mircea_popescu not according to the many folks.
18:32 asciilifeform 'one time we got lost in the woods, and i was afraid that i would have to eat Tippy. then we were rescued, and i put Tippy back into the fridge, next to the other sandwiches.'
↖
18:32 mircea_popescu "i don't give a shit about rutherford's labels" dun reduce to "there were none" except in your own frame.
18:32 asciilifeform (i forget, where)
18:32 mircea_popescu lol
18:32 mircea_popescu sounds like bbs to me.
18:33 asciilifeform somewhere. i found it on a chalkboard, in uni.
18:33 mircea_popescu gosh golly, "pushing the envelope" was such a quaint affair in 1985.
18:38 shinohai !~later tell BingoBoingo http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/C6pH9/?raw=true
18:38 jhvh1 shinohai: The operation succeeded.
18:44 asciilifeform ben_vulpes et al : g5 is valuable , on top of other reasons, to test 'bigendian' behaviours of various proggies.
18:45 asciilifeform ( anyone here tried trb on bigendian ? i -- have not )
18:50 ben_vulpes not yet
18:51 * trinque tried, got segfault upon running the binary
18:51 trinque didn't yet turn up why
18:53 * trinque bbl
18:57 deedbot http://qntra.net/2017/03/buttfunex-diversifying-bespoke-butt-fun-offerings-while-walking-away-from-btc/ << Qntra - Buttfunex Diversifying Bespoke "Butt Fun" Offerings While Walking Away From BTC
18:57 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> 'extruded product' << You know, the most consistently high quality American products of the day appear to be made by "Rubbermaid Commercial Products" (not to be confused with Rubbermaid Consumer Products), best trashcans!
18:58 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> and possibly BingoBoingo . << Interested in machines, but have not acquired herd of yet
19:00 ben_vulpes shinohai: i saw that and laughed uproariously
19:00 ben_vulpes WHERE ARE THE TRB TOKENS, EH?
19:00 ben_vulpes dipsharts
19:00 shinohai We can trade on forks that don't even exist yet!
19:01 ben_vulpes yeah well everyone is wising up to the fact that bcc/bcu are rotten to the cire
19:01 ben_vulpes core
19:01 ben_vulpes finally
19:01 shinohai Ba dumm tiss ( *rotten to the CORE*)
~ 15 minutes ~
19:17 ben_vulpes unrelatedly, is there a "nodictionaries" for russian?
↖
19:21 ben_vulpes !!up lulcoinz
19:21 deedbot lulcoinz voiced for 30 minutes.
19:22 ben_vulpes come ye with lultithes or lultidings?
19:22 shinohai In more "We desperately want to be like trilema" news: http://bitcoin.sipa.be/bech32/demo/demo.html
19:24 lulcoinz so do you guys think there will actually be a hard fork anytime soon?
19:25 lulcoinz just praying nothing happens and BU along with segwit die
19:25 ben_vulpes lulcoinz: why pray?
19:25 lulcoinz well not really pray, "hope" would be more accurate
19:26 lulcoinz i'm not the religious type, i'm more agnostic
19:26 ben_vulpes (given how time, statists, and physics work, more phorks are nearly inevitable)
19:26 ben_vulpes same q though, why "hope"?
19:26 lulcoinz if there is a god, I don't think he gives a shit my (or anyone elses) prayers :)
19:27 ben_vulpes no but seriously, why even bother hoping? run a trb node, insulate yourself from the retardation.
19:27 lulcoinz my understanding is this group doesn't really support segwit or BU
↖
19:28 lulcoinz what is a trb node (sorry for my ignorance)
19:28 shinohai lulcoinz: http://thebitcoin.foundation/trb-howto.html
19:28 lulcoinz trb specifically (I know what a btc node is)
19:28 ben_vulpes yeah ~right. segwit, aka "blockchains that don't validate" isn't a thing, and "bitcoin unlimited" wtf is that even
19:28 ben_vulpes trb is "the real bitcoin"
19:28 ben_vulpes the 0.5.3 codebase, dug out of the ground, polished and oiled into ~usability
19:32 asciilifeform lulcoinz: it's the bitcoin you used in 2011. ~21,000 lines, and shrinking. ( and no 'headers-first' pseudo-verification idiocy, no leveldb, no p2sh, no githubism, no dns, no glibc, various other 'noes'. large collection of exquisite noes.)
19:32 shinohai Just bitches and noes.
19:33 asciilifeform no memory leaks, either (there's fragging, and it needs ~4GB to run, but will stay within the 4GB , indefinitely. )
19:33 lulcoinz sounds good to me
19:33 lulcoinz do you guys have good doc on getting into the wot etc
19:33 ben_vulpes lulcoinz: consider running a fully-validated node
19:33 ben_vulpes fully-validating
19:34 ben_vulpes lulcoinz: http://deedbot.org/help.html
19:34 shinohai See also: http://trilema.com/2014/what-the-wot-is-for-how-it-works-and-how-to-use-it/
19:34 lulcoinz awesome, thank you
19:35 ben_vulpes ohey trinque i know you're busy but you can link to transactions in mimisbrunnr now: http://mimisbrunnr.cascadianhacker.com/blocks/456445#8ce75d1a1e4eaed104a752b92f328bd3d9bb29b66ba7384b0b9dc78319ec01a8
19:35 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629978 << wassat
19:35 a111 Logged on 2017-03-20 23:17 ben_vulpes: unrelatedly, is there a "nodictionaries" for russian?
19:35 shinohai neato ben_vulpes
19:36 ben_vulpes shinohai: ty
19:36 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: interlinear latin translations
19:36 * shinohai goes to work fiddling with jhvh1 to add this functionality
19:36 ben_vulpes with user-adjustable derp knob
19:36 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: y'mean translit ?
19:36 asciilifeform http://translit.net
19:37 asciilifeform ^ www-based gizmo
19:37 asciilifeform also midnight commander does it by default
19:37 asciilifeform (if you view orc txt on a box set to ascii)
19:37 asciilifeform and possibly elsewhere
19:37 ben_vulpes whoa, midnight commander does *translation*?
19:37 ben_vulpes i thought that was like a file browser or some such
19:37 asciilifeform transliteration ben_vulpes
19:37 ben_vulpes aaaaa
19:37 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: it's much moar than 'file browser'
19:38 asciilifeform on most days i spend ~= time in it, as in emacs.
19:38 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: no, not 'translit', translate
19:38 asciilifeform ( emacs -- and ~unfixably -- has few useful SINGLE-KEY commands )
↖
19:38 ben_vulpes oh come now, just switch over to evil-mode
19:38 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: ah i thought you wanted translit.
19:38 ben_vulpes nono, trans/late/
19:39 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: when i say single-key -- i mean single motherfucking F-key.
19:39 asciilifeform not 2, not 3, not 4.
19:39 asciilifeform 1.
19:39 ben_vulpes i kind of don't care how to pronounce the shit, reading far more important to me now
19:39 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: google has the only vaguely-usable one afaik.
19:39 ben_vulpes once i have a grasp on sentences, grammar, i can probably get pronounciation with a few hours of teevee
19:41 * shinohai also likes how mc lets you browse contents of tar.gz archives before unpacking ....
19:42 asciilifeform shinohai: knows how to ftp, sftp, diff directories, 1,001 other things, and extensible.
19:42 asciilifeform sorta like 'norton' was in ye olde msdos dayz.
19:42 asciilifeform but for adults.
19:42 shinohai It's far better than Norton commander was imho
19:42 asciilifeform noshit
19:43 asciilifeform extract for me, in ordinary shell, from a .rar inside a .tar.gz inside a .zip, JUST THE files that differ from a subdir inside a .zip in a certain .rar. and copy to a freshly stood up box with NOTHING but bash/sshd on it.
19:43 asciilifeform in midnight that's roughly 8 seconds' work.
19:43 asciilifeform and with 0 page-rufffling, rtfm, googlage.
19:44 ben_vulpes only because you've already read the fucking manual!
19:44 asciilifeform oh and then search for certain hex string in one of selfsame files.
19:44 asciilifeform 2 seconds.
19:44 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: the 'rtfm' consists of reading three or so lines, saying which f-key does which.
19:44 ben_vulpes > .rar inside a .tar.gz inside a .zip
19:44 ben_vulpes no
19:44 ben_vulpes i go yell at whoever sent me that garbage
19:45 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: 'who sent the garbage' is, in my case, a malware author.
19:45 asciilifeform go, yell.
19:45 ben_vulpes well if you muck about in the dumps of civilization a rad suit is probably a good idea
19:45 asciilifeform or, alternatively, a 20 y.o. archive from simtel.
19:45 asciilifeform or myself 15 yrs ago.
19:45 asciilifeform or.
19:46 asciilifeform this is just an example, of 1 among 1,001 tools in the toolbox.
19:46 asciilifeform (many of the ones on my box, are custom, sorta like folx are accustomed to doing in emacs)
19:47 asciilifeform anyway it isn't a 'replacement for emacs', and serious emacsists do sometimes spit, 'i can do this from TRAMP' etc.
19:47 asciilifeform good -- for them.
~ 24 minutes ~
20:12 phf i misspelled something in btcbase search and was surprised when it didn't "search instead for ..." me.
20:12 asciilifeform lul
20:21 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo afaik that's a chinese brand.
↖
20:25 mircea_popescu !~later tell framedragger hey log ded ?
20:25 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: The operation succeeded.
20:25 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: his client disconnected earlier
20:26 mircea_popescu ah k
20:26 ben_vulpes there is always http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema
20:26 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629992 << actually "segwit" is supported, and fully implemented / working without bugs since what, 2015 ? look up deedbot.org
20:26 a111 Logged on 2017-03-20 23:27 lulcoinz: my understanding is this group doesn't really support segwit or BU
20:26 ben_vulpes and also phf's actually-useful btcbase
20:27 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes yeah i have like one per machine over here :D
20:27 mircea_popescu redundancy ftw, it's so luxurious. who the fuck else has shit like this, not even lizard captains.
20:29 mircea_popescu in the same vein : new dork (at least i've not seen him before) with apparent delusions of "management" at place i normally frequent. i tell him to bring me a dozen empanadas para llevar. he... didn't understand, at first, then on second pass told me to go to "the different counter", then got invited to go search for his mother's cunt, which rendered him apoplectic. /me went to other place down the street he also frequents, g
20:29 mircea_popescu ot his empanadas as well as open invite from waitress who's apparently been waiting for moths for the one time mp is not with cunt in tow.
20:39 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1630030 << we had a thread where mp's said something like "i don't have rsi because i'm literate".
20:39 a111 Logged on 2017-03-20 23:38 asciilifeform: ( emacs -- and ~unfixably -- has few useful SINGLE-KEY commands )
20:39 phf i've been reflecting on the implications of that point with one of the effects that i stopped using emacs (a while ago).
20:39 mircea_popescu o.O
20:40 asciilifeform ooh hey phf retired from massaging bits, or wat
20:40 asciilifeform ( re: quit emacs )
20:40 * mircea_popescu subscribes to this thread, curios how it'll go.
20:44 phf well, i realized that environment micro optimizations are mostly a waste of time, and that something like emacs is one of the worst offenders.
↖
20:45 asciilifeform ( unrelatedly, phf , the ivory2 appears to be back on auction )
20:46 asciilifeform phf: this is not untrue, but i'll be damned if i EVER consider hitting a key 70times in a row, a legitimate part of life, ever.
20:46 asciilifeform ( see 'hungry arrow keys' thread etc )
20:46 asciilifeform and i've no interest in not having SLIME
20:47 asciilifeform and yes emacs is a glue trap.
20:48 mircea_popescu there is this very specific failure mode whereby computerists who for naive reasons decide "they don't play computer games" end up game-ifying their daily life. it is way the fuck better to level up a warlock than to dick around "saving" typing and growing a crop of tomatoes on your balcony.
20:48 phf ^
20:48 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the ancients did write 'moderation in all things', neh.
20:48 mircea_popescu they do.
20:49 mircea_popescu but rare indeed is the computerhead who will sit down and compare the time "improvement" takes to implement CORRECTLY, AND MAINTAIN ; vs the time it actually saves.
20:49 asciilifeform fwiw i turn a knob or two in .emacs , every other year or so.
20:49 phf this whole "literate" point is not so much about specific technology, as it is about rebalancing the tree from the root, so to speak, wherein it's sometimes ok to push the key 70 times
20:49 asciilifeform usually when i end up picking up entirely new system ( most recently -- ada )
20:49 mircea_popescu i know some clits i don't mind pushing 707 times.
↖
20:50 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: dunno about yours, on my kbd there is not a clit..
20:50 asciilifeform repetitive mechanical work -- suxx.
20:50 mircea_popescu come along now an' let's play that strange game where errything's a key!
20:51 asciilifeform 'where is the anykey?!!1'
20:51 mircea_popescu i wish someone here made a garage band so i could write lyrics for them.
20:51 asciilifeform 'аникей'
20:51 mircea_popescu asciilifeform pity nobody named his daughter that.
20:51 mircea_popescu "i'm annie" "from anna ?" "no, from аникей"
20:52 asciilifeform lol!!
20:52 ben_vulpes this is a subset of the "programmers are bad at cost/benefit evaluation" thread
20:53 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: they ~have~ to be
20:53 mircea_popescu more like, "whores are bad at finding non-slippery solutions."
20:53 asciilifeform think.
20:53 mircea_popescu carpenter is likely to make you wooden dam.
20:53 ben_vulpes for example, somehow dropbox let its engineers haul off and do an open-sores python reimplementation
20:53 ben_vulpes which they since abandoned
20:53 ben_vulpes because "go back to your fucking cubicle and file a purchase request for seven more servers"
20:53 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes do you know what is the real because there ?
20:54 ben_vulpes no, please to illuminate
20:54 mircea_popescu it all relies on the almighthy IDF. investor dream fuel. dja know what that is ?
20:54 mircea_popescu it's exactly like nightmare fuel in media. a substance that makes people with money and no clue imagine happy thoughts.
20:54 mircea_popescu large companies without a point or purpose adrift in economic anomie essentialy become IDF packagers.
20:55 asciilifeform naggum called it,
20:55 asciilifeform 'imponade'
20:55 mircea_popescu and the hope is that who knows, maybe the dorks come back with some idf. in any case, up until they return, the thread can be deemed as idf as-is.
20:55 mircea_popescu "we have engineers doing things|! " "What ?" "we don't actually know." "here's some money then."
20:55 ben_vulpes ick
20:55 mircea_popescu ick but tru.
20:56 mircea_popescu asciilifeform imponade, not bad.
20:56 mircea_popescu like the lemonade of the proverbial lemonade stand that's always used as example in theoretical economics.
20:56 ben_vulpes ick and squick
20:56 * ben_vulpes off
20:57 asciilifeform http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3207123764972938@naggum.net.html
20:59 asciilifeform phf: i'm still curious re with what you replaced emacs.
20:59 asciilifeform really, closing parens and indenting by hand..?
21:00 mircea_popescu You may, and some do, complain that there is no super-compact expression of some particular problems, but what you completely miss is that the _penalty_ for thinking "outside of the box" or outside of the "intended" uses of the language is _also_ absent.
21:00 mircea_popescu excellently put.
21:02 mircea_popescu anyway, the difference between imponade and the idf is that the imponade relies on failure of those imponed upon to evaluate ; whereas the idf relies on the fundamental problem of the cost of evaluation -- sometimes it's huge.
21:03 mircea_popescu ie, it's one thing to tell yokel your apple's a mango, it's another thing to claim your apple cures sun eclypse.
21:04 mircea_popescu in practice though, this theoretical distinction carries little importance.
21:04 shinohai http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-21#1630102 <<< Amen
21:04 a111 Logged on 2017-03-21 00:49 mircea_popescu: i know some clits i don't mind pushing 707 times.
21:04 mircea_popescu (though it's a welcome exercise, in passing, to consider HOW would you rigurously prove an apple doesn't cure sun eclipse.)
21:04 asciilifeform if cost of evaluation were huge because the activity consisted of travel to uncharted asteroids -- that'd be one thing.
21:05 mircea_popescu well it claims to :)
21:05 asciilifeform but it consists of pumping liquishit from one vessel to another.
21:05 mircea_popescu hence all the "uncharted lands" references all the time.
21:07 asciilifeform ( the other, obligatory naggum re subj, http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3233532779857997@naggum.net.html , i.e. 'is your work expensive and uncertain because you drill 5km into ocean floor
21:07 asciilifeform .
21:07 asciilifeform ?
21:07 asciilifeform .. or because idiot?'
21:07 mircea_popescu the matrices one ?
21:07 mircea_popescu aha.
21:07 * mircea_popescu regrets naggum.
21:08 asciilifeform what means 'regrets x'
21:08 mircea_popescu that i'd rather he had a sane woman to take him to the hospital.
21:09 asciilifeform or does that construct work in ro
21:09 asciilifeform aah ok.
21:09 mircea_popescu i thought it worked in english.
↖
21:09 asciilifeform notafaik
21:09 mircea_popescu hm.
21:09 asciilifeform but i'm not an inglischman
21:09 mircea_popescu well ... it's been in the logs, so it works nao.
21:10 mircea_popescu it doesn't really work in romanian. i mean, a common honorific for the deceased is "regretatul" ie, the regretted. but that's about as far as that goes.
21:12 mircea_popescu i have nfi why regrets - noun wouldn't work in a language where regrets - verb in perfective aspect works out of the box and without glue. in romanian it needs glue to work, and you can say "hey, no glue for noun so you can't do that!"
21:15 phf asciilifeform: with nothing, that's the beauty of it.
21:15 asciilifeform aah so cocaineyacht.
21:15 phf btcbase still runs on slime, but it's a 30 line el file that lives in the repo itself.
↖
21:15 asciilifeform congrats phf
21:15 phf i sometimes load it to do a macro transform on a particularly gnarly file
21:15 phf but otherwise i use whatever. it's sort of like, if you don't have a hammer, you don't go pounding nails when you have nothing btter to do
21:16 asciilifeform harmful habits are not the hammer's fault.
21:17 asciilifeform 'i picked nose, but cured now, cut off it and fingers'
21:18 asciilifeform phf: with what didja replace , e.g., 'who-calls' ? with grep ?
21:18 asciilifeform with telepathy?
21:20 asciilifeform enjoying typing out by hand 'least-negative-normalized-single-float' twenty times a day?
21:20 phf who-calls ~what~? ~when~? why am i even asking that question? we're discussing a tool outside of specific problem, which is precisely "harmful habits" manifestation
21:21 asciilifeform phf knows very well what is 'who-calls'
21:21 asciilifeform in fact discussing specific domain here, as example, commonlisp.
21:22 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-21#1630170
21:22 a111 Logged on 2017-03-21 01:15 phf: btcbase still runs on slime, but it's a 30 line el file that lives in the repo itself.
21:22 asciilifeform suppose you write a ~new~ proggy, phf
21:22 asciilifeform or reading old smbx clim crud, etc
21:22 asciilifeform really, wont miss 'who-calls' ?
21:24 mircea_popescu "but the hammer's so nice" "dude we're discussing a tool by itself" "don't you think it's nice ?"
21:24 asciilifeform no.
21:25 asciilifeform 'power saws are decadence, hand saw suffices to build anything in existence' 'how much sawing do you , personally, do?' 'stop discussing tool out of context!!1'
21:25 mircea_popescu let's put it this way : if your program is compelx enough you forgot who-calls and it is not actually addressed to a large enough problem space, maybe it's time to review why you're writing it.
21:26 mircea_popescu right back to the whole "but my balcony tomato plantation!11!"
21:26 ben_vulpes hey now, who-calls is extremely-useful for archaeological work
21:27 mircea_popescu yes, i understand that man drowning in complexishit may find various straws to help himself keep breather holes above level for a week longer.
21:27 mircea_popescu still, wouldn'\t it be kinda nice if he sat himself on chair instead of all that ?
21:27 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes yes, but this means you're doing archeological work. why are you ?
21:27 asciilifeform bulldozer that amplifies my intelligence and makes such thing as, e.g., unravelling trb, possible, is not 'balcony tomato'.
21:27 ben_vulpes blender, $fiatoloa scam, etc?
21:27 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i don't imagine he's proposing you don't use whatever tool you want for whatever job.
21:28 mircea_popescu what he's proposing is that it's a tad ridiculous to keep, like every honest taxpaying, they took our jerbs murican, shiny toolkit in garage, that cost 5k to buy and used a total of 400 watts in its entire life
21:28 mircea_popescu doing a $.45 fix.
21:28 phf i'm not sure where to even start with alf's vitriol, but i've seen this conversations enough to not even try
21:28 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i have allergy to 'Simplicity! Is Best! Simple life, Simple toolz!!!' folx, who, on examination, are able to carry along in he delusion strictly because they do ~0 nontrivial work with own hands.
21:29 mircea_popescu mmm.
21:29 mircea_popescu allergy noted in the grand list of allergies.
21:29 asciilifeform ( there is nothing wrong with getting successful to cocaineyacht stage of life. but i like whenfolx are ~honest~ about it )
21:29 ben_vulpes to play priest of heterodoxy for a moment, what is wrong with grep in place of `who-calls`, works for any-lang
21:30 asciilifeform and not pretend that 'rusty spoon is just as good as power saw '.
21:30 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes that you gotta remember the corner cases.
21:30 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: ooda loop.
21:30 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: perhaps it is sin of too-much-emacs, but this is not an interruption to my loop
21:31 asciilifeform moarpowerforyou
21:31 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: expand on 'corner cases'?
21:31 asciilifeform for folx who spent entire life shitting into holes in earth -- that is also not unpleasant, and does not lengthen their oodaloop.
21:31 phf ben_vulpes: we're not actually discussing various relative merritts of various who calls, because we don't have any problem in mind. for trb clion's who-calls is above and beyond anything emacs provides, for genera's clim ~genera~ is way better at who calls, etc.
21:32 asciilifeform phf: genera in my mind is 'an emacs'
21:32 mircea_popescu asciilifeform listen, suppose you run your car over a pothole. what do you do now ?
21:32 asciilifeform the adult emacs.
21:32 mircea_popescu because your answer is "nothing", ima say you're at cocaineyacht stage!!11
21:32 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: explain
21:33 mircea_popescu well, shouldn't you have a barrel of asphalt in your car, fix the hole ? serious people go about with barrel of asphalt tied to car.\
21:33 asciilifeform 'pothole' means what in mircea_popescu's mind's eye, cubic metre pit ?
21:33 mircea_popescu no, pothole, 15 cm deep.
21:33 asciilifeform if there were one of these per six metres of road, i'd consider a tracked vehicle.
21:34 mircea_popescu could you possibly also consider yopu know, just going to a different town ?
21:34 asciilifeform there isn't a different town.
21:34 mircea_popescu but there is a different vehicle.
21:34 asciilifeform aha.
21:34 mircea_popescu yet there also is the BEST IN CLASS asphalt barrel with car attacher!
21:34 mircea_popescu solutions come in a tree.
21:35 mircea_popescu and you're not married to any particular node.
21:35 asciilifeform i don't, note, take issue with folx who quit programming. i aspire to do it one day, myself.
21:35 mircea_popescu some people (known as you know, road workers) have very strong preferences re the asphalt barrelatron.
21:35 mircea_popescu this is fine.
21:35 mircea_popescu it is also not universally interesting.
21:35 asciilifeform but it is disingenuous to say 'i founda Zen Method of programming'
21:35 mircea_popescu it is also not safe to say "they're the only ones doing roadwork". etc.
21:36 asciilifeform which under the surface, consists of not actually writing nontrivial programs.
21:36 phf i didn't actually quit programming, omg. this is reminiscent of the whisperers thread, where a strawman, once chosen, because the only possible direction of conversation
21:36 phf *becomes
21:36 mircea_popescu he should work for the washpo huh.
21:38 asciilifeform well phf did say 'i replaced $tool-of-trade with Nothing'
21:38 asciilifeform what am i to guess , this means.
21:38 mircea_popescu i dunno.
21:39 asciilifeform 'i sold my hammer' 'i suppose you are not a carpenter no moar?'
21:39 mircea_popescu who says you gotta guess somthing ?
21:39 mircea_popescu you can be a carpenter without a hammer.
21:40 asciilifeform could. and so i asked him, because i'd like to see how carpenter goes along without hammer. maybe he found how to convince nails to go into wood by themselves..
21:41 mircea_popescu or maybe hammers aren't as important as all that.
21:41 asciilifeform well sure, maybe 'carpenter' now means a fella who blows houses from plastic, in one shot.
21:41 asciilifeform how'd i know. hence -- asked.
21:42 mircea_popescu your asking has very little in common with asking and a lot in common with "i'll just make up some random shit within 0.1 s and challenge everyone to prove it wrong"
21:42 ben_vulpes nails are the worst metaphorkical pick.
21:42 mircea_popescu which... well, let's say it generally fails to capture the interest of females, or males older than about 16.
21:45 asciilifeform quite srsly, i'd like to know : phf now uses what? 'ed' ? does he still write programs for money ? in commonlisp? in selfsame 'ed' ?
↖
21:45 asciilifeform i will take off my hat, if it is so. promise.
21:46 ben_vulpes who says phf works in cl?
21:46 mircea_popescu iirc, phf himself.
21:46 asciilifeform iirc.
21:46 asciilifeform i could bewrong.
21:46 ben_vulpes irdifferently.
21:47 ben_vulpes java and postgres sit in my banks.
21:47 mircea_popescu o.O
21:47 ben_vulpes and for these, why emacs?
21:47 mircea_popescu !#s from:phf java
21:47 a111 14 results for "from:phf java", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Aphf%20java
21:47 mircea_popescu !#s from:phf common lisp
21:47 a111 60 results for "from:phf common lisp", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Aphf%20common%20lisp
21:47 asciilifeform he did mention a java editor
21:47 ben_vulpes yes, jetbrains
21:48 asciilifeform long ago, asciilifeform did some hard time in a java salt mine, liked editor 'idea'
21:48 ben_vulpes from which the other rec which i took derives, "appcode"
21:48 phf there's no point to answering that question, because it's irrelevant to my original point
21:48 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes at no poin he says this, your banks need ecc!
21:49 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: perhaps the interstitial spaces carry meaning for me
21:49 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: there are several systems for which emacs support is poor/laughable/nonexistent, actually
21:49 ben_vulpes but i leave this thread
21:49 phf but in structural carpentry by the way they don't use nails, drills and screws. (i have experience with that one, and last time i did a build i don't think we even had a hammer)
21:49 ben_vulpes now
21:49 mircea_popescu phf i suspect your ride having been identified as possibly gay, you're now to defend your manhood in ARMED COMBAT!
21:49 asciilifeform lul
21:50 mircea_popescu and yes, everyone but asciilifeform is aware hammer-carpentry is ~windows-computing but anyway.
21:50 asciilifeform the funny/sad bit is that i loathe emacs.
21:50 mircea_popescu "oh, that's what we had at home" "good for you."
21:50 asciilifeform it is a manacle.
21:51 mircea_popescu fucking TERRIBLE idea, "oh, let's shove a hard item through the panes, that'll show 'em!"
21:52 asciilifeform phf: really, no screws?
21:52 mircea_popescu "won't shit get randomly bent and displaced and you only get the residual friction anyway ?" "YEAH!!!"
21:52 asciilifeform how to attach the pieces? ultrasonic weld?
21:52 mircea_popescu screws != nails eh.
21:52 phf asciilifeform: ~screws~ not nails
21:53 asciilifeform ah hmm looks like i misread phf's 'nails, drills, and screws'
21:53 phf and screws are fastened using a drill, not hammer
21:53 asciilifeform i was intrigued, 'no screws! ze phyootoor'
21:53 mircea_popescu no screws ~= structural cuts and glue.
21:53 mircea_popescu all those trapezoid profiles.
21:54 phf you'd think ascii would know that one, traditional ru construction method
21:54 asciilifeform aha
21:54 mircea_popescu traditional everywhere people knew about wood.
21:54 mircea_popescu nails really are the idiot's solution to carpentry.
21:54 asciilifeform or even america 19th c, 'log cabin'
21:54 asciilifeform mircea_popescu this is entirely tru
21:55 trinque phf already answered the IDE question in another thread
21:55 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625841
21:55 a111 Logged on 2017-03-11 21:36 phf: that's another reason, why i don't for example, "hack my python with vim like a real hacker". give me the filthiest, most feature rich IDE, where i can just push spacebar to get half of my scaffolding, or whatever kids these days
21:55 mircea_popescu ftr also not used in crucifixions.
21:55 asciilifeform i found it trinque
21:55 mircea_popescu for all the "original cross nail" afficionados
21:55 trinque seems pretty reasonable; java vogons are gonna make the "best" vogonator
21:56 trinque I dunno about the commercial lisp IDE situation but wouldn't surprise me if they're pretty ok
21:56 asciilifeform trinque: i still missed 'hungry backspace', zero-mouse mechanics, and not having to use ibm keystrokes .
21:56 trinque might have to do with which end of the pig you find most repellant
21:56 asciilifeform (when i used 'idea', 'mathematica' other very spiffy nonemacsen specialized to tasks )
21:56 asciilifeform *and other
21:57 trinque I'm over here with emacs as window manager, shit you not.
21:57 mircea_popescu come to think labout it, the extensive keybindings was the part i enjoyed least about derive.
21:57 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: hah, so not only asciilifeform hated that ui !
21:57 mircea_popescu ~everyone i knew using it for srs first composed a string for paper.
21:58 mircea_popescu i think i mentioned old dood doing actual mm paper acre sized work at some point.
21:58 mircea_popescu even.
21:58 * trinque caps workflow improvements to a with-coffee endeavor, avoids http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-21#1630088
21:58 a111 Logged on 2017-03-21 00:44 phf: well, i realized that environment micro optimizations are mostly a waste of time, and that something like emacs is one of the worst offenders.
21:58 asciilifeform ( interestingly, the physical, calculatorized pocket derive, had stellar ui, joy to use )
21:58 mircea_popescu i never had that one i dont think
21:58 phf trinque: i've been there, i used exwm for a couple of months. there's no end to the rabbit hole when it's made out of bits, is my point
21:59 trinque oh sure
21:59 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: softwarehouse inc. was bought by ti, who 'calculatorized' it, there's an old thread
21:59 trinque I'm tempted to fiddle with midnight commander after asciilifeform's mention
21:59 mircea_popescu ah ah. myeah.
21:59 trinque midnight commander
21:59 trinque ah shit this isn't google
21:59 mircea_popescu trinque it was part of my survival kit for "gotta use a windows system"
21:59 mircea_popescu fortunately, this hasn't been a thing in a decade by now.
22:00 mircea_popescu totalcommander also good.
22:00 asciilifeform ^gui only iirc
22:00 mircea_popescu xtreegold best, but we digress.
22:00 mircea_popescu !#d xtg
22:01 mircea_popescu !#s xtg
22:01 a111 2 results for "xtg", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=xtg
22:01 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: there were many decent clones of the dos nc : e.g., 'volkov commander'
22:01 mircea_popescu wow unmentioned ?
22:01 mircea_popescu well, let's say it did most of my work back in the day.
22:01 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it was described in a trilema
22:01 mircea_popescu ah ah
22:02 asciilifeform and yeah , an nc-like proggy can make life on a shell-less os almost tolerable. but (as i described in earlier thread) that is not the only use.
22:02 mircea_popescu shit was ~windows 3.1, except actually worked, was actually useful and took like 300kb. but otherwise - exactly identical. unsurprisingly, didn't take off.
22:03 mircea_popescu (even had mouse! in like 1990!)
22:04 mircea_popescu asciilifeform dos wasn't altogether shell-less though. about par with ash or w/e they had at the time.
22:05 asciilifeform no grep, no sed -- not shell.
22:05 asciilifeform toy.
22:05 mircea_popescu no pipe, no shell. that much. pretty sure there was an awkatron as a command.
22:05 asciilifeform ( and yes, i wrote kilometres of .bat, like everybody else )
22:05 mircea_popescu but you couldn't really go | which ... yeah. ruins it.
22:06 asciilifeform the humble | is 99% of what unix even has going for it.
22:06 mircea_popescu xtg had built in hex view! and shit.
22:06 mircea_popescu yep. exactly true.
22:07 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: nc also, hexview
22:07 mircea_popescu they made biosen with asm debuggers built in, back then, too!
22:07 asciilifeform i use mc's -- daily
22:07 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: on pc?!
22:07 mircea_popescu i used to use it daily when i used real mode computors for sure.
22:07 mircea_popescu asciilifeform aha. 286 to boot.
22:07 asciilifeform who made ?
22:08 mircea_popescu i don't recall right off.
22:08 mircea_popescu but my jaw dropped when i was shown the wonder.
22:08 * asciilifeform never had the pleasure of encountering x86 with rom debugger.
22:08 phf i briefly used emacs and clisp in dos. as poor man lisp machine as it gets
22:08 * asciilifeform had 'xlisp'
22:08 asciilifeform it was neato
22:10 * mircea_popescu goes on dig for wtf that was, turns up... pfaster-286
22:10 mircea_popescu dja know this wtf ? advertised in oct 1985 pc mag
22:20 mircea_popescu https://books.google.com.ar/books?id=xsMx9D2s6y0C&lpg=PA43&ots=_kLp1j3SJb&pg=PA43#v=onepage&q&f=false < item
22:35 * asciilifeform flips through linked thing, nostalgiates
22:35 asciilifeform pg. 35 also interesting
22:36 mircea_popescu yeah remember when these were actually worth reading ?
22:37 asciilifeform 'IBM PC Creator Dies. DALLAS--Philip D. "Don" Estridge, 47, IBM vice president of manufacturing and former head of the Entry Systems Division, which developed the IBM PC, was among the six IBM employees killed in the August 2 Delta Air Lines crash at the Dallas/Fort Worth airport...'
22:37 asciilifeform 1985.
22:37 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: yeah, as late as mid-90s even.
22:37 mircea_popescu yeah.
22:39 phf ru had computerra, which was quite decent in 98 or so, went downhill after
22:39 mircea_popescu romania had literal samizdat items.
22:39 mircea_popescu maybe a thousand different, most with <12 editions.
22:39 mircea_popescu two thirds on a4 paper.
22:41 mircea_popescu virtually all dot-matrixed
22:42 mircea_popescu basically people'd steal whatever govt office supplies, make a... well i guess a sort of blog, really. 90s.
22:42 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it is interesting, in the american 'computing' mags of the time, to see the ads, how the pictured people are dressed, even
22:42 asciilifeform quite different planet from today.
22:43 mircea_popescu yeah.
22:43 mircea_popescu it wasn't ok top be black, then
22:43 asciilifeform in other types of leisure reading, 'scientific american' (i recently bought half a century's worth of'em, monster crate) also same types of people
22:44 asciilifeform not only 'not black' but they are dressed like 'stereotypical capitalist devil', sharp suit, tie, sitting in respectable-looking study, or in office with obvious subordinates, etc
22:45 mircea_popescu right.
22:45 asciilifeform they are creatures of the 'vhs america'.
22:45 mircea_popescu the non-inclusive, non-minority friendly us. america.
22:57 asciilifeform p.37: 'Market competitors wasted no time in knocking Microsoft's long awaited Windows environment... ...Microsoft, however, says that the criticisms ranged from unfair to incorrect. Says company spokesperson Marty Taucher "We changed the product significantly so it would support existing applications. Allegations that it does not, as (Quarterdeck president) Therese Myers says, and that you need to 'step aside' to support other progra
22:57 asciilifeform ms, are flat wrong." '
22:57 asciilifeform lulzy.
22:58 mircea_popescu aha, back when the shitshow could still have been killed.
22:58 asciilifeform aha, if not for... a plane crash here , an idiot there.
22:58 mircea_popescu aha.
22:58 mircea_popescu and a universal if foolish unawareness of the republic.
22:59 mircea_popescu "why should some thigns be destroyed. live and let live!!11"
22:59 mircea_popescu idjits.
22:59 asciilifeform poor savages, thought that only single bodies could get cancers.
22:59 mircea_popescu you know, at the time the samovar wasn't yet a train
23:00 mircea_popescu "oh, big whoop, why oppress the niggers! not like i don't have my nice suit or my sane office"
23:00 asciilifeform funnily enough, it was very much a train, but was still called 'ibm' train.
23:00 asciilifeform ( if we're still speaking of microshitization )
23:00 asciilifeform but -- yes.
23:00 mircea_popescu asciilifeform observe that at the tme phoenix could make... cpu competitor board.,
23:00 mircea_popescu and... did.
23:03 asciilifeform p.96 , moar lulz
23:04 asciilifeform 'Computer paranoia is inspired by an industry aggressive enough to liken internal competition to war and incompetent enough to ship faulty, dangerous products.'
23:09 phf mode ##lmi +b foo@bar
23:09 phf err
~ 20 minutes ~
23:29 BingoBoingo http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-21#1630068 There's two distinct very different things under the brand. American version's msot notable product is "Brute" trashcan
23:29 a111 Logged on 2017-03-21 00:21 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo afaik that's a chinese brand.
23:36 BingoBoingo http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-21#1630161 << Have seem before. Mostly from the Aged.
23:36 a111 Logged on 2017-03-21 01:09 mircea_popescu: i thought it worked in english.
~ 19 minutes ~
23:56 BingoBoingo *seen
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