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search trilema search all chans

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00:04	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17900 @ 0.0005039 = 9.0198 BTC [-] {3}
00:12	phf	ben_vulpes: i'll take at look in the next few days, but one quick comment, fwiw i built it on a 32-bit openbsd.
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00:13	phf	the goal was to run it on a libretto and try to eat the first couple of blocks, but it wouldn't even connect to rpc for whatever reason, so i gave up on the whole distraction
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00:16	deedbot-	[Qntra] Reference Client Patch Bans Bloom Filter Parasites - http://qntra.net/2016/01/reference-client-patch-bans-bloom-filter-parasites/
00:17	phf	(trying to debug via serial cable on a pentium 233 is it's own kind of fun....)
00:17	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21650 @ 0.00049831 = 10.7884 BTC [-] {3}
00:17	BingoBoingo	^ No promise IP in article was IP actually seen in debug.log
		~ 15 minutes ~
00:32	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21542 @ 0.00050644 = 10.9097 BTC [+] {2}
00:37	ben_vulpes	programmers and their bonzai trees of complexity
00:38	ben_vulpes	nightmare hybrid zen rock combing garden and jenga
00:41	mats	i can't visualize this
00:42	BingoBoingo	mats: Imagine the rocks are wet and the rake is sodium
00:42	ben_vulpes	in freefall
00:43	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35104 @ 0.00049865 = 17.5046 BTC [-]
00:44	mats	but where is the jenga
00:45	ben_vulpes	aha it's backwards jenga
00:45	ben_vulpes	you add new bits and try to not knock the whole thing over
00:45	mats	one can't just smash japanesu words together with jenga and expect this to be comprehensible
00:45	ben_vulpes	all the while gently raking the rocks and snipping ornamentally at the leaves
00:46	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4468 @ 0.00049865 = 2.228 BTC [-]
00:56	BingoBoingo	;;bc,stats
00:56	gribble	Current Blocks: 392774 | Current Difficulty: 1.0388034081545589E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 393119 | Next Difficulty In: 345 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 0 hours, 25 minutes, and 15 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
01:06	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11250 @ 0.00050645 = 5.6976 BTC [+]
01:14	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5300 @ 0.00050645 = 2.6842 BTC [+]
01:19	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69350 @ 0.00050571 = 35.071 BTC [-]
01:22	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26100 @ 0.00049992 = 13.0479 BTC [-] {4}
01:34	copypaste	mircea_popescu: i see you're having trouble with internet.bs - they seized a domain of mine without warning before, and only gave it back when i retained a lawyer in the Bahamas; the domain was 8chan.co
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01:36	BingoBoingo	copypaste: I suspect the reason you dislike pete_dushenski aping trilema is he comes from boring Canada and his cool factor and empire potential are limited by that.
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01:36	copypaste	i would further like to let you know that internet.bs has been sold since you and i registered our domains there, of course without notice to us
01:37	copypaste	(if in fact you registered trilema.com on the creation day of 2009-06-07)
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01:37	copypaste	https://www.centralnic.com/company/news/2014/centralnic-buys-domain-name-registrar-internet-bs-ibs
01:37	assbot	CentralNic buys domain name registrar Internet.bs (IBS) | Press from 2014 | Press | About | CentralNic ... ( http://bit.ly/1RF4szm )
01:39	BingoBoingo	copypaste: He changed registrars from namecheap when they went derpy web 2.goatse
01:39	copypaste	internet.bs changed my nameservers to IBS controlled nameservers which served their own ads and intercepted all cookies to the 8chan.co domain
01:40	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24343 @ 0.00050648 = 12.3292 BTC [+] {4}
01:40	copypaste	well BingoBoingo, i'd also recommend you read this in case you need a refresher on how DNS actually works http://www.kimmoa.se/The_rotten_and_corrupt_Domain_Name_System/
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01:40	assbot	The rotten and corrupt Domain Name System (DNS; EuroDNS = thieves) - KimmoA.se ... ( http://bit.ly/1RF4Nlu )
01:40	BingoBoingo	DNS works as NSA spyware
01:41	copypaste	people who own domains are absolutely at the mercy of the registering company, because the registering company IS the actual owner according to ICANN
01:41	BingoBoingo	Yes
01:41	copypaste	and ICANN is a corrupt organization because it's USG affiliated
01:41	BingoBoingo	And Glibc DNS functions force dynamic linking which is why excised from trb
01:41	copypaste	i really hope trilema.com will stay online and they won't steal it, but based on my interactions with internet.bs i'm worried
01:42	copypaste	i recommend you retain an attorney in the bahamas like i did
01:43	BingoBoingo	win https://twitter.com/guruvan/status/686432614018891776
01:43	copypaste	BingoBoingo: we all know that the best DNS system is a GPG based one. private key trumps all nebulous ideas of "ownership" and "terms of service".
01:43	BingoBoingo	"@qntra we always recommend running your own nodes for security. To run with "altruism" as one's security plan is nothing but a fool's errand"
01:44	BingoBoingo	;;later tell guruvan thank you for stepping up on this issue
01:44	gribble	The operation succeeded.
01:44	mats	whats this gpg based dns system
01:45	copypaste	it doesn't exist but in my own head
01:45	BingoBoingo	gossipd
01:45	copypaste	but, it would be the best system ever made.
01:45	copypaste	(for DNS _)
01:46	BingoBoingo	namecoin could have not sucked, but too late for that
01:47	copypaste	indeed. the problem with DNS is how entrenched it is.
01:47	copypaste	honestly after this happened to me i went into a deep depression that took months to recover from; all of my perceptions of the internet were shattered. and as an aside that's why i no longer own 8chan
01:48	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16786 @ 0.00050688 = 8.5085 BTC [+] {3}
01:49	BingoBoingo	Muh feels
01:49	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7705 @ 0.00050729 = 3.9087 BTC [+]
01:51	ben_vulpes	copypaste: were you the guy running mp's ads?
01:51	BingoBoingo	But yeah, my perceptions of the internet continually break and have to recompile
01:51	copypaste	yes i was ben_vulpes, for the month that they were paid for
01:52	copypaste	renegotiation of that contract would have to be with ads@8ch.net <Jim Watkins>, not me
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01:52	copypaste	it's probably not worth it though, 8chan is moribund
01:54	ben_vulpes	eyeballs are fickle.
01:55	copypaste	it has a chance of bouncing back, in the same way that gavin's career has a chance of bouncing back
01:55	copypaste	it could happen sure; will it? it's not likely
01:57	copypaste	BingoBoingo: now i never make assumptions about ownership. quite the opposite. if it's not backed by a private key i just assume i don't own it, less disappointment that way.
01:57	BingoBoingo	ic
01:59	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 90300 @ 0.00050662 = 45.7478 BTC [-] {8}
02:00	BingoBoingo	K, qntra's slow seems to have a touch of the DDoS. Going to sleep. Anyone who wants to write about Intel's Skylake already having a rowhammer exploit coded for its DDR4 controler feel free to sumbit a piece.
		~ 30 minutes ~
02:31	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13700 @ 0.00050899 = 6.9732 BTC [+] {2}
		~ 25 minutes ~
02:57	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3500 @ 0.00051112 = 1.7889 BTC [+]
		~ 42 minutes ~
03:40	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4350 @ 0.00050313 = 2.1886 BTC [-] {2}
03:45	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15000 @ 0.00050757 = 7.6136 BTC [+] {3}
03:46	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29836 @ 0.00050312 = 15.0111 BTC [-] {3}
03:52	deedbot-	[BitBet Bets Bets] 1.00000000 BTC on 'No' - Connor McDavid will live up to the hype - http://bitbet.us/bet/1198/connor-mcdavid-will-live-up-to-the-hype/#b8
03:54	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24088 @ 0.0005144 = 12.3909 BTC [+] {3}
		~ 21 minutes ~
04:15	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30800 @ 0.00050099 = 15.4305 BTC [-]
04:26	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18781 @ 0.0005168 = 9.706 BTC [+] {4}
04:35	punkman	http://www.spamhaus.org/news/article/726/
04:35	assbot	Verizon Routing Millions of IP Addresses for Cybercrime Gangs ... ( http://bit.ly/1JEMJXr )
		~ 27 minutes ~
05:02	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8150 @ 0.00051705 = 4.214 BTC [+]
05:09	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26000 @ 0.00051282 = 13.3333 BTC [-] {4}
05:24	punkman	http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/a4a9a650-b807-11e5-bf7e-8a339b6f2164.html
05:24	assbot	Shenzhen closes down 6.6% as China market rout continues - FT.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1SJ9w6B )
05:26	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4900 @ 0.00051023 = 2.5001 BTC [-] {2}
		~ 18 minutes ~
05:45	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8250 @ 0.00051023 = 4.2094 BTC [-]
05:58	punkman	!up nikthebookie
06:01	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32968 @ 0.00051617 = 17.0171 BTC [+] {5}
06:02	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20082 @ 0.00051713 = 10.385 BTC [+]
06:06	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40200 @ 0.00051724 = 20.793 BTC [+] {2}
06:14	jurov	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=10-01-2016#1364575 depends which yurp. the slovakistan healthcare deteriorates so quickly that all pregnant women i know did at least consider it.
06:14	assbot	Logged on 10-01-2016 03:54:17; mircea_popescu: but anyway. natural birth has a huge following in the states. almost unknown in yurp.
06:15	jurov	only few days ago heating in biggest hospital in bratislava fell out and they had to haul women in labour around
06:15	kakobrekla	natural = in the barn ?
06:16	jurov	no, home, usually in the tub
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06:16	jurov	with some professional assistant available
06:17	kakobrekla	yeah, midwifes
06:18	jurov	lulz were when they asked PM about it while he ran his 3rd pressconference about syrian refugees in month
06:18	jurov	he literally said "stfu, the boiler room is not my responsibility"
		~ 22 minutes ~
06:40	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14341 @ 0.00051737 = 7.4196 BTC [+] {4}
06:47	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49243 @ 0.00051821 = 25.5182 BTC [+] {3}
06:48	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10300 @ 0.00051911 = 5.3468 BTC [+]
		~ 37 minutes ~
07:25	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12700 @ 0.00051603 = 6.5536 BTC [-] {4}
07:35	punkman	https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CYZCvIIUsAAJRPP.jpg:large
07:35	assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1RhQhBL )
07:37	shinohai	srsly? Life in the land of the free ....
07:44	punkman	http://www.deathandtaxes.com/antigovviolence.pdf
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07:44	assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1RhQLI5 )
07:46	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9700 @ 0.00050727 = 4.9205 BTC [-]
		~ 15 minutes ~
08:01	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4441 @ 0.00050624 = 2.2482 BTC [-] {3}
08:12	jurov	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=10-01-2016#1364932 They will laugh at you back with your cravings of sugar.
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08:12	assbot	Logged on 10-01-2016 06:21:12; BingoBoingo: Could simulate these changes with benzodiazepine dependence (which is why people who do the Keto thing recreationally start to feel sick when carbs are introduced, ketosis stops and they undergo a drug withdrawal)
08:14	adlai	!t m s.mpoe
08:14	assbot	[MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.00048327 / 0.00050429 / 0.00051911 (1339213 shares, 675.35 BTC), 7D: 0.00047125 / 0.00050131 / 0.00052085 (8567396 shares, 4,295.00 BTC), 30D: 0.00047125 / 0.00049646 / 0.00052085 (85080661 shares, 42,239.77 BTC)
08:15	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366010 << you mean measurabilititty.
08:15	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 03:48:39; kakobrekla: im not convinced absolutity is the absolute condition for measurability
08:17	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366026 << http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=foucault lettuce not get ahead of our selves.
08:17	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 03:51:27; adlai: the fact that i mention foucault all the time doesn't mean anybody pays attention to me obsessively quoting it, either
08:17	assbot	3 results for 'foucault' - #bitcoin-assets search
08:18	adlai	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-07-2015#1218408 << "never keep"? what does this even
08:18	assbot	Logged on 30-07-2015 19:17:09; shinohai: Books too, they had a hard-on for Umberto Eco for some reason, and I could never keep a copy of Foucault's Pendulum
08:19	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366041 << more importantly, it's not clear to me portage is even useful anymore. since v i mean.
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08:19	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 03:54:29; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366025 << y'know, reimplementing portage in cl (or whatever, fuck, in fortran if you want) instead of python doesn't magically unbreak the foss ecosystem
08:20	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366053 << i had no idea lenin shat in the bidet before.
08:20	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 03:59:57; asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: not quite: 'Ленин - жил, Ленин - жив, Ленин - будет жить!'
08:21	mircea_popescu	"lenin, lived ; lenin, lives ; lenin shat in the bidet!"
08:22	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366063 <<< certainly. which is why trb nodes are not all advertised, and we're eagerly awaiting seeing this "pure coincidence".
08:22	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 04:21:48; trinque: hitler doesn't want you to talk to nodes X Y Z, so he barfs up packets with a heathen commands.
08:22	mircea_popescu	that "never happened"
08:22	mircea_popescu	and etc.
08:27	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366093 << not exactly, at least not yet. we had an exchange, they backed off. (last i heard was "We have already asked the complainant to contact the webhost as we do not provide hosting services and cannot remove any content from the website. We are awaiting their response and will forward you the details once they respond." which is exactly what one'd expect sane people
08:27	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 06:34:49; copypaste: mircea_popescu: i see you're having trouble with internet.bs - they seized a domain of mine without warning before, and only gave it back when i retained a lawyer in the Bahamas; the domain was 8chan.co
08:27	mircea_popescu	would say to try and extricate themselves from the potential mess).
08:28	mircea_popescu	from what intel reports they had a cowboy period ~in2014 when they stole a bunch of domains, got slapped with some suits, lost a coupla worth their income for the decade and settled right the fuck down.
08:29	mircea_popescu	anyway, judging by the [Ticket#2015121310000406] header it'd seem they sat on this for almost a month - from dec 13 to jan 9th. but whatevers, i was just looking for a pretext to throw the whole dns bullshit away anyway.
08:29	mircea_popescu	i want domain names like i want a wide selection of hats.
08:34	adlai	"naked people have little to no influence on society" - mark twain iirc?
08:34	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21900 @ 0.00050485 = 11.0562 BTC [-] {4}
08:35	mircea_popescu	this was pre-mp.
08:35	mircea_popescu	these days, dressed women will have little influence on society.
08:38	copypaste	interesting mircea_popescu. i won't ask where you got that intel from, but it means i wasn't the only one affected
08:38	copypaste	and i wasn't the only one to open cases in bahamas courts
08:38	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366096 << no, i moved it a few weeks ago.
08:38	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 06:37:06; copypaste: (if in fact you registered trilema.com on the creation day of 2009-06-07)
08:39	mircea_popescu	copypaste tons of people were affected and the eventual sale was related.
08:39	mircea_popescu	originally i registered the domain with namecheap ; originally namecheap was a great registrar. meanwhile they went to utter shit, the story is both on trilema an' in the logs.
08:40	copypaste	do you have a comment on the kimmoa.se article? i think it's spot on but you definitely know all the details already
08:40	copypaste	DNS is ICANN and ICANN is USG
08:40	copypaste	therefore DNS is USG
08:40	copypaste	no way around it.
08:40	mircea_popescu	which article is this ?
08:41	copypaste	i linked it above in the log
08:41	mircea_popescu	ahj saw it
08:41	copypaste	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366102
08:41	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 06:40:37; copypaste: well BingoBoingo, i'd also recommend you read this in case you need a refresher on how DNS actually works http://www.kimmoa.se/The_rotten_and_corrupt_Domain_Name_System/
08:43	mircea_popescu	i can't make any sense of said article, myself.
08:43	mircea_popescu	so guy is pissed off and likes to call things names. fine.
08:44	mircea_popescu	for one thing, if half a mil is " you can just forget about that right away." to you, then on what the fuck is your expectation to participate in the workings of society based ?!
08:44	mircea_popescu	obviously EVERY naming system will work exactly like the dns, or like the wot works : either be at the table, or be a child looking for parents.
08:44	mircea_popescu	how else ?
08:44	copypaste	the wot works better than DNS
08:45	copypaste	because the WoT is keybased
08:45	copypaste	and DNS is fiat biased
08:45	copypaste	i would accept a WoT DNS
08:45	mircea_popescu	well, yes, because it wasn't made by idiots. but the fundamental point remains : someone excluded could re-use that article by re-writing 5 words.
08:45	mircea_popescu	but in point of fact you can run a dns server right now, and tell everyone to use it, and for everyone who does use it... your version of the ns will be visible.
08:46	mircea_popescu	heck, there was a bitcoin-based thing that kinda worked on that premise. namecoin.
08:46	deedbot-	[BitBet Bets Bets] 1.00000000 BTC on 'Yes' - Bitcoin to top $700 before Apr 2016 - http://bitbet.us/bet/1236/bitcoin-to-top-700-before-apr-2016/#b28
08:46	copypaste	oh sure, but you don't get to create names on the real DNS
08:46	copypaste	the one anyone cares about
08:46	mircea_popescu	there is no "real" dns.
08:46	copypaste	it's like making an altcoin
08:47	copypaste	ICANN has given themselves authority to make new TLDs, ICANN has given themselves ultimate authority over names
08:47	mircea_popescu	well yes. your choices are : either have enough power / capiutal / value to acquire enough actual btc to matter in that world ; or else to get used to not mattering in the world ; or else to have even more power and force an alt into being.
08:47	mircea_popescu	no, the usg has given icann such authority.
08:47	adlai	someday somebody will care enough about this to cannibalize what's left of namecoin and build a proper Bitcoin DNS
08:47	mircea_popescu	and every derp out there in indonesia or peru or wherever saving in dollars in preference of my currency, or his president's currency, has given usg such power.
08:48	mircea_popescu	if they change that behaviour, the world will re-arrange and so on.
08:48	copypaste	"la florida and other places"
08:48	copypaste	:)
08:48	adlai	maybe naming systems shouldn't be design around "investment" and flipping ownership each month!
08:48	mircea_popescu	that one yeah.
08:48	mircea_popescu	there is no other way to design a naming system.
08:48	adlai	other than?
08:48	*	adlai wasn't aware that there was one single blessed version, DNS is just the good-enough fiat leftover that we have today
08:48	mircea_popescu	this goes all the way down to actual working of language. do we power the ns that calls me racist and evil ? do we power the ns that calls tess d'urberville or w/e her name is fat and obama an idiot ?
08:48	mircea_popescu	you can't have two.
08:49	adlai	they can bid it off
08:49	mircea_popescu	naming is by its nature this : that there will be a group in power, allocating the names, and everyone else can go suck it.
		↖
08:53	mircea_popescu	ha-ha. this is what i'll call the delusion of heysteve, this "they can bid it off", after http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-10-2015#1300465
08:53	assbot	Logged on 16-10-2015 13:23:33; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-10-2015#1300279 << so a) you'll spend your life driving between bickering nuts. this is a worse deal than what psychs get, at least there you gotta drive to his office. ; b) the blockchain and everything else is entirely superfluous here. your entire idea is "hey, make me the mp of renting in south africa". maybe they will or maybe they won't but you really don'
08:53	mircea_popescu	who the fuck do you think you are that they'd bother to "bid it off" ? they won't bid it off in front of you, they'll just ignore your delusion.
08:54	copypaste	i don't see why naming has to be this way.
08:55	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2900 @ 0.00050726 = 1.4711 BTC [+] {2}
08:55	copypaste	naming based on the bitcoin blockchain is best. i own this bitcoin private key, i own this domain.
08:55	copypaste	it's already like that on the tor network.
08:55	copypaste	i own this private key, i own domain derpxxxxx.onion.
08:55	copypaste	you can;'t take it away from me unless you get the key. that's how naming should be.
08:56	mircea_popescu	you familiar with the name zooko ?
08:56	copypaste	dns was good in the time of fiat, it's worthless for the new paradigm.
08:56	copypaste	i'm not unfortunately.
08:56	mircea_popescu	yes. well, look into the zooko triangle.
08:56	mircea_popescu	yes, naming can work like that, if 8chan.co and 94875984375983.jksldak are the same to you.
		↖
08:57	mircea_popescu	otherwise, a bitcoin vanity address with five specified letters (out of the whole set) takes a day.
08:58	punkman	might as well do gpg-signed /etc/hosts entries
08:58	mircea_popescu	quite.
09:02	mircea_popescu	in fact, v-powered /etc/hosts may even be a serious improvement over the current situation.
09:02	mircea_popescu	"i want to use the dns for back-up, whenever what ~these~ people use doesn't contain an answer". seems pretty cool.
09:03	mircea_popescu	and incidentally, how the dns was actually designed to be used. the current centralist windowstardian webstupidity only works the way it works because of the userbase. the design is fine, but "everyone"| and "has come to expect" and bullshit like that make people pretend like a suboptimal local maximum is relevant to the graph. well... it ain't.
09:05	mircea_popescu	hey panzers... we actually game to doing this ? it really dun cost much and it does resolve an actual problem, provide a serious incentive to participate, makes nice media headlines... low hanging fruit.
09:10	mircea_popescu	it can even run as an antispam service in parallel. if i go 127.0.0.1 doubleclick.net in my file, you won't be seeing any ads from them in your browser, no matter what they do.
09:12	mircea_popescu	it also introduces a kinda dubious but possibly useful ddos protector, in the sense that one can run different ips for the meatriver and for the wotdns.
09:12	shinohai	That would be stellar
09:13	mircea_popescu	lettuce see what trinque ben_vulpes mod6 asciilifeform davout jurov kakobrekla & co say when they wakeup
		↖
09:23	mircea_popescu	o hey, what happened to guruvan
09:23	mircea_popescu	;;seen guruvan
09:23	gribble	guruvan was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 1 year, 13 weeks, 4 days, 20 hours, 8 minutes, and 19 seconds ago: <guruvan> have the right key in there?
09:23	mircea_popescu	!up guruvan
09:23	*	mircea_popescu waves
09:27	jurov	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1365829 if you insist on people telling you what you "must" or "we must do" then I'll tell you this: you must study what was done already before spamming opinions around.
09:27	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 01:48:18; *: adlai will have to implement his own, so it runs on his 'pogo'
09:27	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366130 << i suspect i had an incorrect idea of your involvement with that thing.
09:27	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 06:52:12; copypaste: renegotiation of that contract would have to be with ads@8ch.net <Jim Watkins>, not me
09:28	mircea_popescu	i tend to do this "X's item" because that's how the republic works. obviously, not how the fiatosphere does.
09:28	jurov	as you can see i've woken up, still have a half a day to go
09:28	jurov	or it's urgent?
09:28	mircea_popescu	nah not urgent, just important.
09:32	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24800 @ 0.00051069 = 12.6651 BTC [+] {3}
09:40	copypaste	mircea_popescu: i suspect i also had an incorrect idea of my involvement with that thing
09:40	mircea_popescu	hahaha
09:47	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366164 <<< if they do it right after a run of bootleg liquour, it also disinfects!
09:47	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 11:16:03; jurov: no, home, usually in the tub
09:48	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366176 << ahahaha what the shit.
09:48	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 12:44:25; punkman: http://www.deathandtaxes.com/antigovviolence.pdf
09:48	mircea_popescu	this wouldn't be http://trilema.com/2015/gerald-davis-is-wrong-heres-why/ would it ?
09:48	assbot	Gerald Davis is wrong. Here's why. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1RGaxvt )
09:49	mircea_popescu	in any case, http://www.deathandtaxes.com/?p=58 << shot a cop!
09:54	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13591 @ 0.00051259 = 6.9666 BTC [+] {2}
10:05	copypaste	i wish there were a statically compiled eulora without all these dependencies
10:05	thestringpuller	there's binaries copypaste
10:06	copypaste	i keep trying on and off to take MP's invitation to play, but i keep being dissuaded by the large effort required on my part :p
10:06	thestringpuller	that's understandable. it's like playing dwarf fortress for the first time I 'spose
10:07	copypaste	quite
10:09	thestringpuller	i'm waiting for combat/dungeon crawling before I start to get heavily invested.
10:10	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13100 @ 0.00050414 = 6.6042 BTC [-] {2}
10:11	mircea_popescu	what are you trying to run it on ?
10:14	copypaste	arch linux x86_64, and shitty pinoy internet to boot
10:16	mircea_popescu	hm, did you try teh http://www.eulorum.org/Ubuntu stuff ? i dun recall if anyone ever tried it on arch specifically but by and large should work.
10:16	assbot	Ubuntu - Eulorum ... ( http://bit.ly/1D6vTgQ )
10:16	mircea_popescu	and spit out a usable binary within half an hour.
10:17	copypaste	i had some compiler error, i'll have to try again to bring it back up
10:17	copypaste	it was getting late so i just shut down and then got busy with other things
10:17	copypaste	as things go
10:17	copypaste	i only remembered as i was sorting my inbox and saw the invitation again
10:17	mircea_popescu	aha. there's a buncha people that can prolly halp if you get a specific error.
10:17	jurov	wywialm failed on problems to find corrswtionding arch packages
10:17	mircea_popescu	oh ?
10:17	jurov	so if you get further, you can at least publish them
10:18	mircea_popescu	s/corrswtionding/corresponding ?
10:18	jurov	corrswtionding -> corresponding
10:18	copypaste	perhaps i could even make a PKGBUILD if i get it to work, if it pleases you guys
10:18	mircea_popescu	at least if we have some names we can bitch at arch ppl specifically.
10:18	copypaste	i have a few PKGBUILDs in the AUR
10:18	mircea_popescu	if you do you prolly get some game goodies at any rate.
10:19	jurov	copypaste: and do paste the compiler log (whole if possible).
10:20	mircea_popescu	one of the most encouraging things about eulora's economy that i see myself is - i keep a running total of player cash and of player assets. and the latter has been a monotonously increasing function ever since forever. the appetite for materials seems outright insatiable.
10:21	mircea_popescu	and in fact from the micro perspective i dun recall anything being offered for sale and not selling, yet.
10:21	copypaste	i very much love the concept of a 3d game with a bitcoin economy. i've played a few, but all poorly done.
		↖
10:21	copypaste	made by derps for derps
10:22	mircea_popescu	well the gfx here aren't too advanced,
10:22	copypaste	i mean poorly done in the community sense, in the conomy sense, in the sense of rules
10:22	mircea_popescu	but if you read the #eulora log.... ( http://logs.minigame.bz )
10:22	assbot	#Eulora Log ... ( http://bit.ly/1RGh0Gz )
10:23	mircea_popescu	i honestly believe it's the best done game, as far as the underlying "rules" go. owner delusion or not.
10:23	mircea_popescu	considering it's been played for nigh on a year and people don't even know wtf those rules even are...
10:23	thestringpuller	mircea_popescu: this insatiable need for materials will only increase when people start killing things and going to war etc.
10:24	mircea_popescu	possibru
10:24	thestringpuller	reminds me distinctly of star wars galaxies before Sony ruined the game.
10:24	mircea_popescu	of course, no major player quit yet. that's usually a principal source of excess goods
10:24	thestringpuller	cause "consumer has come to expect" but I don't think consumers will be problem for eulora
10:25	thestringpuller	but in essence eulora is more than a game, and more of a living world that people virtually inhabit
10:26	mircea_popescu	not so far. ironically... if you go by a timeplay metric, december saw 64722 player-hours, which is seriously more than what MOST games see.
10:26	mircea_popescu	for that matter, usual graphics intensive "AAA" title has what, 50 hours in it ? if not 30.
10:27	thestringpuller	the time sinks in those games are relative unfortunately because it's more effective to leave player wanting more, thus AAA publisher forces studio to make another game
10:28	thestringpuller	diminishing returns can get really dull after say 80 hours into a game with only 50 hours of story
10:30	mircea_popescu	tru
10:30	deedbot-	[Trilema] What to do when spammers spam you ? Why... offer them work, of course! Capitalism saves lives. Touch the screen now! Heal! - http://trilema.com/2016/what-to-do-when-spammers-spam-you-why-offer-them-work-of-course-capitalism-saves-lives-touch-the-screen-now-heal/
10:31	thestringpuller	as a side note, I know a player with 300 days of playtime on FFXI. Although it's been out since 2002-2003ish
10:31	thestringpuller	(300 24 hours intervals)
10:31	mircea_popescu	;;calc 300 * 24 * 3600
10:31	gribble	25920000
10:32	mircea_popescu	well... nobody in eulora there yet.
10:32	thestringpuller	Eulora will grow as it needs to. It's impressive.
10:33	thestringpuller	WoW killed the MMO, Eulora will rebirth it.
10:33	mircea_popescu	hopefully.
10:34	mircea_popescu	eulora record is actually a guy with 13919282 connecterd time.
10:34	mircea_popescu	not gonna say who, other than it's not even me!
10:34	mircea_popescu	fucking unfair.
10:34	thestringpuller	that's impressive
10:35	mircea_popescu	anyway, the first accounts are from early june, so "nigh on a year" ain'\t really fair. half year.
10:37	danielpbarron	probably me
10:37	jurov	what does DNS-replacement-by-v need to be done? just take your /etc/hosts, sign and publish, no?
10:37	mircea_popescu	but yeah, i did notice it tends to suck people in. not everyone, but some people.
10:37	thestringpuller	!up PeterL
10:37	mircea_popescu	jurov im thinking more like a rotor script to build a local hosts out of, maybe, deedbotted things ?
		↖
10:38	mircea_popescu	on the base of sigils etc.
10:38	thestringpuller	Eulora has deep gameplay, which creates emergent phenomenon which is by design. The real interesting thing is mircea_popescu has figured out how to do this without spending a million a dollars.
10:38	mircea_popescu	user can run it periodically.
10:38	thestringpuller	!up ascii_butugychag
10:39	PeterL	BingoBoingo, My current lab is not set up to handle anything as dangerous as FOOF, would need a few kBTC to get something like that set up
10:39	mircea_popescu	thestringpuller the thing is, the meta-game is incredibly rich and very rewarding. usually the problem with making a game, as an enthusiast, is that fucking hell you know it so it's at best half as fun.
10:39	jurov	what's a sigil?
10:39	mircea_popescu	but because of the metagame this doesn't actually hold here. much to my satisfaction.
10:39	mircea_popescu	jurov concept from v, it keeps a sigil directory.
10:39	jurov	are these concepts, like, documented anywhere?
10:39	mircea_popescu	heh.
10:40	mircea_popescu	but he has a point, mod6 and ascii_butugychag : we should prolly document v.
10:40	ascii_butugychag	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366374 << much as mircea_popescu dislikes 'must x before y!1111' affairs, this really oughta run on gossipd.
10:40	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 15:37:56; mircea_popescu: jurov im thinking more like a rotor script to build a local hosts out of, maybe, deedbotted things ?
10:40	mircea_popescu	ascii_butugychag it oughta, but it can run without it too, and it's seemingly easy enough to get started.
10:40	ascii_butugychag	mircea_popescu: iirc mod6 had a pretty good guide to v
		↖
10:40	ascii_butugychag	mircea_popescu: can, but with a great deal of manual sweat
10:41	mircea_popescu	the advantage of prototyping is that most major issues you will spend time working on, you encounter AFTER you're done designing.
10:41	ascii_butugychag	does anyone actually need ~more~ sweat on his box ?
10:41	mircea_popescu	what's the great deal ?
10:41	mircea_popescu	either cron the updater or run it whenever you please.
10:41	ascii_butugychag	how does updater know where to connect ?
10:42	mircea_popescu	how does v currently know where to connect to build the rotor ?
10:42	ascii_butugychag	my v connects nowhere
10:43	mircea_popescu	not the question.
10:43	ascii_butugychag	100% filesystem-based
10:43	PeterL	so point the updater using a file
10:44	ascii_butugychag	i'm just not personally convinced that names gotta be automatic
10:44	mircea_popescu	nobody said they gotta be ?
10:45	ascii_butugychag	well it is implicit in the reference to zooko's triangle
10:45	thestringpuller	ascii_butugychag ben_vulpes mod6 : is there a way to look at what data messages/control messages are going over the wire or force their invocation in trb? or would that functionality need to be patched in to print to log/accept command from some source?
10:45	mircea_popescu	the reference was to explain to copypaste why he can't have both worlds / what the use of current dns arrangement is.
10:46	ascii_butugychag	thestringpuller: 'wireshark' (read-only)
10:46	mircea_popescu	if i had to bruteforce sha256 to come up with the signature for "trilema.com" i probably wouldn't bother.
10:46	thestringpuller	ascii_butugychag: thx. that's what I was thinking. will do.
10:47	mircea_popescu	and it would definitely cost more than 10 bux.
10:47	ascii_butugychag	mircea_popescu: i can't speak for others, but i was always ok with '6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452 likes to call himself mircea_popescu so why not'
10:47	ascii_butugychag	the whole 'memorable centralized names' thing is inherently statal.
10:47	mircea_popescu	sure. but i do notice he never registered 6F12EC72A82ABCA35235063A10DDC983901AA183.co
10:48	mircea_popescu	(incidentally - if anyone here remembers the ancient discussion re naming services, which is how qntra ended up with that name at least in part - this system would be a necessarily optimal solution to that problem. it'd guarantee you need the minimum possible stroke count to get your desired destination.
10:48	ascii_butugychag	he probably also never drove a cart hitched to a pack of stray dogs
10:49	mircea_popescu	it'd also guarantee you wouldn't recognize it, but hey.)
10:49	ascii_butugychag	i see names as necessarily a local (machine) matter.
10:50	mircea_popescu	ascii_butugychag and there's no argument considered or offered that it's not statal. the discussion is that under some circumstances it is advantageous.
10:50	mircea_popescu	iirc i even said - what that guy complains of, we'd also do.
10:50	ascii_butugychag	aha i just got off a city train, likewise inherently statal, and advantageous
10:50	mircea_popescu	quite.
10:50	ascii_butugychag	incidentally there was a ragged black fella preaching about 9/11 inside job
10:50	ascii_butugychag	and usg spreading aids, chemtrails, etc.
10:51	ascii_butugychag	enjoyed a good hour of this
10:51	mircea_popescu	but he wasn't the conductor.
10:51	ascii_butugychag	no conductor
10:52	ascii_butugychag	'don't believe me?!! look what's happening to yer greenbacks!!!111'
10:52	ascii_butugychag	-- direct quote
10:52	mircea_popescu	"Million Mask March: Many younger sovereigns are fascinated with ideas of a youth revolution, anarchy, and hacktivism (a portmanteau of hack and activism,) even though the majority of them are not particularly computer savvy. They often call themselves Anonymous and wear the mask and costume of the central character in the movie V for Vendetta."
10:52	mircea_popescu	this is pretty lulzy.
10:52	ascii_butugychag	^ old nyooz ?
10:52	mircea_popescu	aha.
10:53	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29811 @ 0.00050889 = 15.1705 BTC [+] {3}
10:53	copypaste	Anonymous are (rightfully) viewed as losers, or USG themselves, by most thinking people
10:53	ascii_butugychag	cult film, what canyoudo
10:53	shinohai	Anons lel
10:53	mircea_popescu	"A few take it one step further by initiating violence in hopes of acting as a catalyst for this war. Timothy McVeigh’s goals, for example, weren’t just to murder 168 people, bring down a symbolic building, and punish the government for its role in the standoffs at Waco and Ruby Ridge. He wanted to make his mark in history by providing the Patriot movement with the spark that would light the fires of revolution.
10:53	mircea_popescu	Ironically, the Sovereign movement is made up of highly paranoid people who tend to believe that every violent act in recent history is a “false flag” operation set in motion by the evil government, so the odds of such an event triggering a Revolution are quite slim."
10:53	mircea_popescu	lulzy.
10:54	ascii_butugychag	where was this
10:55	mircea_popescu	earlier linked piece, random derpage. http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366176
10:55	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 12:44:25; punkman: http://www.deathandtaxes.com/antigovviolence.pdf
10:57	ascii_butugychag	sovereigns ?!!
10:57	mircea_popescu	incidentally, i finally got to the bottom of the shocking absence of anyone but caucasians from argentina (it is, literally, the whitest place on earth, up there with romania and i guess montana)
10:58	mircea_popescu	older folk explained it to me. back when they had their various wars, they confronted paraguayans at some point, and managed to sell the slaves on the theory that black men make the best warrirors for which reason they must take the first lines.
10:58	mircea_popescu	"y los paraguashos los mataron todos!"
10:59	mircea_popescu	i suspect that as the century-old (and probably more grounded) view of black people as naturally cowardly and militarily worthless gives way to this purely symbolic "black is the new manhood", extermination approaches.
11:00	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26650 @ 0.00050953 = 13.579 BTC [+]
11:00	ascii_butugychag	aha, only black fella i saw in b-a was a pilot
11:01	mircea_popescu	some limited immigration was permitted of ex spanish african colonies
11:01	mircea_popescu	but it mostly provides street vendors, and i'd be surprised if it makes up that many ppm.
11:01	mircea_popescu	!up indiancandy1
11:01	indiancandy1	HEY GANG
11:02	mircea_popescu	bang!
11:06	mod6	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366283 << this is an interesting idea.
11:06	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 14:13:52; mircea_popescu: lettuce see what trinque ben_vulpes mod6 asciilifeform davout jurov kakobrekla & co say when they wakeup
11:06	mircea_popescu	mod6 what'd be your definition/specificiation for the concept of sigil ?
11:07	mod6	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366390 << I do have a usage guide and quick-start guide... but maybe more of whats needed is not a reference manual, but an overall concept paper.
11:07	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 15:40:42; ascii_butugychag: mircea_popescu: iirc mod6 had a pretty good guide to v
11:07	mircea_popescu	yeah.
11:07	mircea_popescu	so that people can correctly develop on top of a shared core
11:07	mircea_popescu	rather than you know... mess.
11:08	ascii_butugychag	a sigil is a tuple of a seal & the thing-sealed.
11:09	shinohai	!up ascii_butugychag
11:10	mircea_popescu	i thought sigil was the name of keys in v.
11:11	ascii_butugychag	possibly
11:11	ascii_butugychag	i dun think i named them
11:11	mircea_popescu	right.
11:11	ascii_butugychag	but this is a good one.
11:11	ascii_butugychag	let's
11:11	ascii_butugychag	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366191 << complicated. v is deliberately unusable with 'fuzzy' flow
11:11	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 13:19:15; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366041 << more importantly, it's not clear to me portage is even useful anymore. since v i mean.
11:11	mircea_popescu	so atm, as a working theory : the correct working of the nosuchdns script would be a) look in sigils directory and build list of sigils ; b) look in repository (where ?) for what's signed by the sigils ; c) create a sort -u list of the aformenentioned and dump it in hosts as > ratrher thjan >> ?
11:12	ascii_butugychag	(e.g., you don't know EXACTLY bitwise what you want at a step)
11:12	mod6	<+mircea_popescu> mod6 what'd be your definition/specificiation for the concept of sigil ? << by definition, for me its a cryptographic signature (embossment) of a given input.
11:12	mircea_popescu	mod6 so then what's a seal ?
11:12	mircea_popescu	do sigils produce seals or do seals produce sigils.
11:12	ascii_butugychag	let's sigils produce seals!
11:12	ascii_butugychag	this is the proper meaning.
11:13	mircea_popescu	i thought so too.
11:13	mod6	ah, to me that's what i took 'sigil' to mean, 'a seal'. I may misunderstand the language.
11:13	ascii_butugychag	sigil =~= rsa modulus
11:13	ascii_butugychag	seal ~= rsa modular exponentiant.
11:13	ascii_butugychag	(at least for now, at some point folks might start using lattice or even, fuck, lamport signatures)
11:13	mircea_popescu	maybe in 2017.
11:15	ascii_butugychag	(for n00bz: lamport signature is to signing approx. what otp is to encipherment)
11:17	mircea_popescu	rather approx.
11:18	mircea_popescu	ascii_butugychag what about this fuzzy flow ?
11:18	ascii_butugychag	approx same pain
11:18	ascii_butugychag	but less gain.
11:18	mircea_popescu	huh ?
11:18	mircea_popescu	oh oh. yeah, re lamport.
11:18	ascii_butugychag	mircea_popescu: as for 'portage', think about it
11:18	mircea_popescu	i am.
11:18	mircea_popescu	do tell ?
11:19	ascii_butugychag	the port tree does not specify the exact hash of executable built at each point
11:19	ascii_butugychag	because nobody has a deterministic builder
11:19	mircea_popescu	this simply means the port tree is curreently empty
11:19	mircea_popescu	and will have to be filled.
11:19	ascii_butugychag	it had, iirc, some (spotty) support for pgp
11:19	ascii_butugychag	but nothing that would add up to sanity
11:20	mircea_popescu	"smart people disagree because they do not share priors ; idiots disagree because they can't follow implications"
11:20	ascii_butugychag	first need deterministic buildatron.
11:20	ascii_butugychag	unfortunately this is not negotiable
11:20	ascii_butugychag	gotta have this x before you can even think about y-ing.
11:21	ascii_butugychag	and deterministic in the ~bitwise~ sense.
11:21	ascii_butugychag	as in, i build on nintendo, mircea_popescu on cray, we get same elf output so long as we asked for same target and used same src.
11:22	ascii_butugychag	all of the idiot indeterminate hiss on current boxes will have to go.
11:23	ascii_butugychag	(recall when we diffed rotor builds ??)
11:24	trinque	ascii_butugychag: what did you think of my simply checking the hash at the end of a build target?
11:24	trinque	did it for downloads; trivial to do for a produced binary as well
11:24	ascii_butugychag	as i said,
11:24	ascii_butugychag	no, not trivial.
11:24	ascii_butugychag	because gcc is full of shit
11:24	ascii_butugychag	it shits out system-specific crud into the build.
11:25	ascii_butugychag	try it.
11:25	trinque	sure, trivial to check is all
11:25	ascii_butugychag	CHECK is useless
11:25	ascii_butugychag	needs to DIE
11:25	trinque	mkay, how are you going to get gcc shitting consistently then?
11:25	ascii_butugychag	for so long as the crud gets put there, you don't have deterministic build
11:25	ascii_butugychag	you 1) patch gcc
11:25	trinque	sure, I don't disagree
11:25	ascii_butugychag	2) make sure src is EXACTLY SAME on all boxes.
11:25	ascii_butugychag	not same binary? won't hash correctly, flow graph cannot proceed.
11:26	*	trinque slaps his forehead
11:26	trinque	yes, having a make target fail when a hash fails is a good idea
11:26	ascii_butugychag	you can think of this idea as a more fascist version of 'make'
11:26	trinque	my makefiles do that
11:26	trinque	moves the built target out of the way if it fails
11:27	trinque	was easy
11:27	ascii_butugychag	presently, 'make' only cares that a particular file name comes to exist
11:27	trinque	read teh verify.mk include, does precisely what you're saying
11:27	trinque	"CHECK_OR_DIE"
11:27	ascii_butugychag	but i was discussing a hypothetical v-tronic variant of 'portage'
11:28	trinque	yep, would that not be a tree of v-patches on a tree of makefiles?
11:28	ascii_butugychag	the thing to understand is that we are doing something quite analogous to the invention of... SANITATION.
11:28	trinque	could reinvent the makefile like "ebuild" or w/e, still a makefile
11:30	mircea_popescu	<trinque> "CHECK_OR_DIE" << word.
11:30	*	mircea_popescu liked that
11:32	mircea_popescu	"By the end of April, the couple was completely broke, unemployed, and effectively exiled from a community they had given up everything to join. Jerad reached out to some of the other local voices in the movement, but found that most such activists were big on words, minimal on action, and did little more than post anti-government pictures and rants on the Internet."
11:32	mircea_popescu	am i the only one who sees this eerily reminiscent of "bitcoin nodes" situation ?
11:32	ascii_butugychag	wai wut
11:33	ascii_butugychag	the pestilence of faux nodez?
11:33	mircea_popescu	yup
11:33	mircea_popescu	until and unless you ban the blooming idiots, your copshootings take forever to propagate
11:33	ascii_butugychag	speaking of which - anybody else try my malleus mikehearnificarum ?
11:33	mircea_popescu	once you do, it's simultaneous.
11:34	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3600 @ 0.00050992 = 1.8357 BTC [+] {2}
11:35	mircea_popescu	“This cop needs to be shot and then displayed for all others to see. Time to let these Nazi thugs who really runs the show here in this country. We need to string all of them up and make an example for the next generation that these acts will not be tolerated. They answer to us, not the other way around. Time we start asking the hard questions and lay the hammer down on those who truly deserve it.” Jerad Miller, M
		↖
11:35	mircea_popescu	ay 7, 2014
11:35	copypaste	where does this quote come from?
11:36	mircea_popescu	this 31 yo guy who together with his 22 yo wife shot a coupla cops and then got killed.
11:37	copypaste	ah, i meant the first one, my client was scrolled up
11:37	copypaste	By the end of April...
11:38	mircea_popescu	http://www.deathandtaxes.com/?p=58
11:38	mircea_popescu	some obscure usg outlet.
11:40	mircea_popescu	"Examples of recent activity
11:40	mircea_popescu	September 9, 2014 – Eric Frein, an anti-government survivalist, is currently a fugitive wanted for shooting two Pennsylvania State troopers in an ambush, killing one and wounding the other. According to the State Police Commissioner, Frein had talked about committing mass murder in addition to killing officers. He was recently added to the FBI’s 10 Most Wanted list. General Anti-government
11:40	mircea_popescu	August 12, 2014 — Armed with an AK-47, ammunition, and propane canisters, Douglas Lee Leguin set a fire, then called 911 to report it. When Texas officers and firemen responded to the call, he shot at them in order to bring attention to his political complaints. Sovereign Citizen"
11:40	BingoBoingo	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366180 << Oh no jurov, the people are addicted to NOT having sugar.
11:40	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 13:12:42; jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=10-01-2016#1364932 They will laugh at you back with your cravings of sugar.
11:40	mircea_popescu	ironically... i believe if one were to add up the number of usg agent deaths as evident from prosecution attempts, and then compare that figure with the number of usg agent deaths as reported by the usg for various statistical purposes, a 10:1 difference wouldn't even be surprising.
11:41	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8441 @ 0.00050414 = 4.2554 BTC [-] {2}
11:42	mircea_popescu	!up ascii_butugychag
11:42	ascii_butugychag	re: earlier thread: for historian types such as pete_dushenski: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-11-2014#922643 << my original source for concept in 'v'
11:42	assbot	Logged on 15-11-2014 00:27:45; asciilifeform: there was a three-man system
11:43	mircea_popescu	will come in handy once we actually have / can afford three men working on any one thing.
11:43	ascii_butugychag	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366550 << this could almost literally be a quote from that fella on the train this morning
11:43	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 16:35:36; mircea_popescu: “This cop needs to be shot and then displayed for all others to see. Time to let these Nazi thugs who really runs the show here in this country. We need to string all of them up and make an example for the next generation that these acts will not be tolerated. They answer to us, not the other way around. Time we start asking the hard questions and lay the hammer down on those who truly deserve it.”
11:44	mircea_popescu	ascii_butugychag or, for that matter, from me.
11:45	ascii_butugychag	the emphasis on local police is intensely usgtronic, however.
11:45	ascii_butugychag	!s gendarmerie
11:46	assbot	28 results for 'gendarmerie' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=gendarmerie
11:46	mircea_popescu	not so. you're wrong in this reading, and the usg itself very clearly proves they understand this (for instance in their attempts to hide behind the tired local sheriff dioscussed on qntra)
11:46	mircea_popescu	it would be a forced mistake for this gendarmerie to appear. and forced it must be.
11:47	ascii_butugychag	local police are all that presently stand between average u.s. pgp user and a dhs torture chamber.
11:47	mircea_popescu	i do not believe so.
11:47	ascii_butugychag	(in the aggregate, rather than the particular.)
11:47	mircea_popescu	local police is what currently stand between random acts of violence and the us president being raped on camera.
11:47	ascii_butugychag	consider brazil.
11:47	mircea_popescu	and while i have no particular taste for violence, i do wish to see obama, or his successor, raped on camera.
11:47	mircea_popescu	what of brazil ?
11:48	ascii_butugychag	chaos in the precincts, no presidential rape on camera ?
11:48	mircea_popescu	orly.
11:48	ascii_butugychag	afaik.
11:48	mircea_popescu	we don't agree on this point.
11:48	ascii_butugychag	which? the chaos? or br still having an unraped pres
11:50	mircea_popescu	i don't agree that brazil works as an example for your purpose.
11:50	mircea_popescu	but be that as it may : as the oathkeepers article derrided here yest nevertheless correctly points out: other people's problems,. to be resolved by those self-same other people.
11:50	ascii_butugychag	how else.
11:50	BingoBoingo	PeterL: I guess it can wait. I just like how somethign so cool has such an onomatapeia
11:50	ascii_butugychag	not by martians, no.
11:51	mircea_popescu	and mexico makes for a much better example, in that direction.
11:52	ascii_butugychag	how's that
11:52	BingoBoingo	!up PeterL
11:52	PeterL	BingoBoingo, I don't particularly want to go FOOF myself
11:52	PeterL	seems like a nasty chemical to work with
11:52	BingoBoingo	Ah, I see
11:53	mircea_popescu	ascii_butugychag numerous examples of pretorian guard heads that thought going with the usg is safe beheaded.
11:53	ascii_butugychag	by the next usg stooge, aha
11:53	mircea_popescu	mno.
11:54	ascii_butugychag	re: malleus thread: did mircea_popescu ever write an article about the error of 'postel's law' ?
11:54	mircea_popescu	and i specifically discuss the president rather than the "mayor of the palace" because really, having dagobert cut to pieces in the public place is a worse stigma on the obnoxious pepin than actually shortening him a head more would have been.
11:55	ascii_butugychag	after the successful test of malleus h., i've been tempted to write one
11:55	ascii_butugychag	looked for old work, found only this - http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1999945
11:55	assbot	The Robustness Principle Reconsidered - ACM Queue ... ( http://bit.ly/1Zgq3ig )
11:55	mircea_popescu	please do. if i did it'd be fragmentary and so on
11:55	PeterL	I have had a reactor make a foof sound as it lit fire, not a pleasant experience (and that was just a simple combustion of THF, nothing explosive)
11:56	ascii_butugychag	for n00bz, 'postel's law' went something like 'be conservative in what you send, be liberal in what you accept.'
		↖
11:57	ascii_butugychag	it has the smell of good engineering and thereby became enshrined in the old canon
11:57	ascii_butugychag	but leads to tremendous ecological catastrophe
11:58	ascii_butugychag	(in the genuine sense of the word)
11:58	mircea_popescu	write the article. i'll read, and if need comment!
11:59	BingoBoingo	PeterL: Well, maybe this is a job for the indians or Chicoms
12:00	ascii_butugychag	http://www.loper-os.org/?p=37 << related
12:01	ascii_butugychag	specifically y. kreinin's text,
12:01	ascii_butugychag	'How many problems did you have with hardware compared to OS compared to end-user apps? According to most evidence I got, JavaScript does whatever the hell it wants at each browser. Hardware is not like that. CPUs from the same breed will run the user-level instructions identically or get off the market. Memory-mapped devices following a hardware protocol for talking to the bus will actually follow it, damn it, or ge
12:02	ascii_butugychag	'Low-level things are likely to work correctly since there’s tremendous pressure for them to do so. Because otherwise, all the higher-level stuff will collapse, and everybody will go “AAAAAAAAAA!!”'
12:02	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5277 @ 0.00051018 = 2.6922 BTC [+] {2}
12:02	ascii_butugychag	the few precious things that ACTUALLY WORK, consistently, every time - your cpu's adder, the bus, etc. SHIT on postel.
		↖
12:03	ascii_butugychag	by being ~extremely~ tight, and, importantly, well-specified, in what input they accept.
12:03	PeterL	garbag in, garbage out
12:03	mircea_popescu	your definition of "actually work" is different from HIS definition of "Actually work".
12:03	mircea_popescu	consider unpnp, it is the best example.
12:03	mircea_popescu	does bitcoin "actually work" with or without it ?
12:03	ascii_butugychag	there was a time when alu worked the way upnp 'works'
12:03	ascii_butugychag	know when?
12:03	ascii_butugychag	when 'computer' was a... job description
12:03	ascii_butugychag	and gurlz sat with abacus
12:04	ascii_butugychag	gurl hung over? wrong numbers come out
12:04	mircea_popescu	and an important thing to point out is also the b-a model.
12:04	ascii_butugychag	which is how babbage got his gig
12:04	mircea_popescu	#b-a is EXTREMELY liberal in what it accepts, and extremely conservative in who it accepts it from.
12:04	mircea_popescu	this happens to be how sexuate reproduction works, also, which makes me suspect it's a peak behaviour.
12:04	ascii_butugychag	this works for knights of the round table, but not so much for menial mechanics
12:05	mircea_popescu	and you know this how and wherefore.
12:05	mircea_popescu	cunt is mechanics.
12:05	mircea_popescu	!s cunt runs on perl
12:05	assbot	0 results for 'cunt runs on perl' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=cunt+runs+on+perl
12:05	ascii_butugychag	'assembly line with phds'
12:05	mircea_popescu	he BULLSHIT
12:05	mircea_popescu	ascii_butugychag nope. there isn't a person in every cunt, yet they all work.
12:05	ascii_butugychag	depends what means 'work'
12:06	ascii_butugychag	produce shaved apes fairly reliably, sure
12:06	ascii_butugychag	and the abacus gurlz produced... numbers!111 reliably.
12:06	ascii_butugychag	just not necessarily the ones you want.
12:07	ascii_butugychag	that's the whole notion of a mechanism - that it does something quite specific, in a quite-specific way, that is defined in advance
12:07	mircea_popescu	perhaps.
12:07	mircea_popescu	this looks to me like a large cave, actually.
12:08	ascii_butugychag	hm?
12:08	mircea_popescu	!rate copypaste 1 HotWheels / 8chan guy
12:08	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/a51bc4c939860f84
12:08	mircea_popescu	!v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.copypaste.1:900d82e7c59245e329102c53b146c1d58cddb571df4cc512b93fdab831b55a4a
12:08	assbot	Successfully added a rating of 1 for copypaste with note: HotWheels / 8chan guy
12:09	copypaste	thought you guys might get a kick out of this. i'm reading a highly contested law where i live (philippines)
12:09	copypaste	this is part of it
12:09	mircea_popescu	ascii_butugychag this thing, that we were discussing. seems to me to make the echo sounds typical of a huge cave, even if we only found a little hole.
12:09	copypaste	https://imgur.com/gB9G2Oz
12:09	assbot	Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet ... ( http://bit.ly/1ZnAm9A )
12:09	ascii_butugychag	mircea_popescu: dan mocsny had a spiffy essay on man and mechanism in this sense, but afaik it is lost to history
12:09	ascii_butugychag	(google nuked it)
12:09	mircea_popescu	copypaste dpaste al;ways better for text. and do you kno what deedbot is ?
12:10	mircea_popescu	ascii_butugychag heh.
12:10	copypaste	it's a PDF, and it was made by Pinoys, so of course it doesn't copy right
12:10	copypaste	that's what i tried first, but it got all misformatted
12:11	mircea_popescu	pdf must die already omfg.
12:11	ascii_butugychag	mocsny had examples, e.g., man takes 'viagra', turning cock into a mechanism, in the sense that you walk into a forest and are not content to sit on ~any~ old surface, if you are there long enough you start making chairs, polishing the wood, etc
12:11	ascii_butugychag	mechanisms.
12:11	ascii_butugychag	rather than natural crud as-found.
12:11	copypaste	mircea_popescu: here's how Okular (KDE PDF client) interpreted it: http://dpaste.com/1GY12RN
12:11	assbot	dpaste: 1GY12RN ... ( http://bit.ly/1ZgscKL )
12:11	copypaste	i have no idea how they managed that.
12:12	ascii_butugychag	pdf can die when i can type in integral sign and not have it EVER pagebroken.
12:12	ascii_butugychag	then and not before.
12:12	mod6	<+mircea_popescu> pdf must die already omfg. << yes.
12:14	mod6	!up ascii_butugychag
12:14	ascii_butugychag	i have yet to see a pill against pdf proposed here that doesn't reduce to mircea_popescu's broomstick.
12:16	ascii_butugychag	i own a printer. and i intend to keep owning a printer. i like paper. and i don't ever want to see a motherfucking pagebreak in the middle of an equation.
12:16	mircea_popescu	ascii_butugychag what "page"
12:16	ascii_butugychag	page.
12:16	ascii_butugychag	of dead wood.
12:16	mircea_popescu	eh quit smoking.
12:16	mircea_popescu	it's good for the environment and ok for you.
12:17	ascii_butugychag	eh make me a 1200 dpi screen then
12:17	ascii_butugychag	and i'll begin to think about it
12:17	copypaste	e-ink eschews the need for real paper
12:17	ascii_butugychag	copypaste: tops out at 300 dpi or so
12:17	ascii_butugychag	and no colour.
12:17	mod6	i like ascii txt
12:18	mircea_popescu	mkay, do what i did back before i had a dirigible :
12:18	*	ascii_butugychag has owned possibly every e-ink toy on the market
12:18	mircea_popescu	have your dad steal some fucking listing paper already!
12:18	ascii_butugychag	mircea_popescu: i own a gigantic crate
12:18	mircea_popescu	this "page" nonsense is related to written matter like excel spreadsheets are related to business
12:18	ascii_butugychag	but matrix printer tops out at 100 or so dpi.
12:18	ascii_butugychag	and looks like shit
12:18	mircea_popescu	keep your stuff as rolls like god & newton intended
12:19	ascii_butugychag	y'know, rolls still have a horizontal width.
12:20	ascii_butugychag	that is fixed.
12:21	trinque	CSS has a "don't pagebreak this when printed"
12:21	ascii_butugychag	and if 'this' exceeds the pixel count of the page ?
12:22	ascii_butugychag	ever read knuth's tex book ?
12:22	ascii_butugychag	or at least understand why tex is complicated ?
12:22	trinque	you're asking if it can scale things down to fit the page?
12:22	trinque	no, I have not read a book on tex
12:22	copypaste	CSS has many rules, what matters is how they're implemented.
12:22	copypaste	<BLINK> still exists - in theory.
12:23	trinque	page-break-inside has pretty wide support
12:23	ascii_butugychag	scaling down pixelwise is idiocy if it results in an equation where i cannot read the sub- and superscripts, say.
12:24	trinque	so we use our brains and wrap whatever you don't want broken in a box with the above CSS
12:24	ascii_butugychag	trinque: i have yet to see even a sane implementation of, e.g., mathml.
12:24	*	trinque is merely making the humble claim that HTML > PDF
12:24	ascii_butugychag	and i am NOT interested in equations-as-bitmaps!
12:24	ascii_butugychag	because that is idiocy
12:24	ascii_butugychag	gotta be searchable, cut&pastable, etc.
12:24	ascii_butugychag	first-class citizens.
12:24	trinque	reasonable.
12:25	ascii_butugychag	and presently only achieved in pdf.
12:25	ascii_butugychag	(or rather, postscript, pdf is merely ps rebranded)
12:25	ascii_butugychag	ps is a 1980s thing, and was invented for perfectly valid reasons, the malicious bugginess of crapobat etc. are not inherent in it.
12:25	mircea_popescu	!up Guest72952
12:26	Guest72952	dude
12:26	Guest72952	ur chatroom robbed my name
12:26	Guest72952	im hurt
12:26	mircea_popescu	what name ?
12:26	Guest72952	i went to eat
12:26	Guest72952	indiancandy1
12:26	mircea_popescu	<copypaste> <BLINK> still exists - in theory. << in practice. even used on trilema.
12:27	copypaste	no, just in theory. all the widely used implementations have dropped it, at least by default
12:27	ascii_butugychag	does anyone recall emma goldman's famous words re: dancing & the revolution?
12:27	copypaste	<blink> probably exists on trilema, but nobody notices it, more than likely
12:27	copypaste	except the odd reader using IE6 of course!
12:27	mircea_popescu	<ascii_butugychag> and presently only achieved in pdf. << have you lost it, man ?! what of pdf is searchable, cut/paster able etc ?
12:27	ascii_butugychag	'if i cannot dance, i want nothing to do with your revolution'
12:27	ascii_butugychag	mircea_popescu: pdf crapped out by latex is all of these !
12:28	ascii_butugychag	it is ~allowed for~ by the format
12:28	mircea_popescu	not what we're discussing here!
12:28	mircea_popescu	would it please you if i said adobe must die ?
12:28	ascii_butugychag	yes.
12:28	mircea_popescu	aite.
12:28	ascii_butugychag	but iirc mircea_popescu is allergic to the whole notion of vector graphics for-printer
12:28	ascii_butugychag	which always struck me as quite broomsticky
12:29	mircea_popescu	i'm allergic at the notion of being fed it. i'm niot a printer.
12:29	mircea_popescu	just like i'm not interested in binary blob "signed" text.
12:29	ascii_butugychag	be fed baudot over smoke signal if you go in for that
12:30	ascii_butugychag	everything you see is 'binary blob', you just happen to own a convenient interpreter for it
12:30	trinque	how bout math in ascii sexps?
12:30	ascii_butugychag	trinque: again, rendered how
12:30	trinque	plain text
12:30	ascii_butugychag	i'm all for latex-like animal in sexp representation
12:30	ascii_butugychag	but i have no interest in READING it with naked eye!!
12:30	trinque	no, why the insane notation at all
12:31	mircea_popescu	quick test : does http://trilema.com/2015/sa-muare-haterii-mei-doi/#selection-83.0-83.6 blink for anyone but me ?
12:31	assbot	Sa muare haterii mei (doi) on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1ZguysY )
12:31	trinque	wasn't the original purpose of the sexp *this* ?
12:31	ascii_butugychag	trinque: absolutely motherfucking not
12:31	ascii_butugychag	not even mccarthy wanted to LOOK at sexps with eyes!
12:31	mircea_popescu	<trinque> how bout math in ascii sexps? << pretty much the only known solution to his problem
12:31	ascii_butugychag	they were meant as an intermediate representation
12:31	mircea_popescu	it's of course "counterintuitive" to she-brains
12:31	trinque	wat
12:31	ascii_butugychag	to be rendered by machine into a preferred form
12:31	ascii_butugychag	yes
12:31	ascii_butugychag	read 'lisp-1' paper.
12:31	mircea_popescu	!up ozymandias_
12:31	ascii_butugychag	by john m.
12:31	ozymandias_	If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution.
12:31	mircea_popescu	why can;t you dance ?
12:32	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31900 @ 0.00050698 = 16.1727 BTC [-]
12:32	mircea_popescu	<ascii_butugychag> everything you see is 'binary blob', you just happen to own a convenient interpreter for it << one. ONE.\
12:33	mircea_popescu	there shall not be any more. and sure as fuck not infinity.
12:33	mircea_popescu	there may be exactly one.
12:33	ascii_butugychag	if i can't read, say, http://www.complexity.ethz.ch/education/Lectures/ComplexityHS10/ScriptChapterTwelve WITHOUT ANY degradation in quality, searchability, without superfluous page breaks or line breaks, 'can't dance'
12:33	assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1ZguQjK )
12:33	mircea_popescu	you can't dance anyway. i was asking the ozy nboob
12:34	ascii_butugychag	mircea_popescu: mno. you are, for instance, using irc client, which is not same as telnet, isn't showing you (or making you manually type in) the PING and PONG, say
12:34	mircea_popescu	hey ascii_butugychag are those graphs pngs ? hm ? HM ?
12:34	ascii_butugychag	so there is sure as hell more than one renderer.
12:34	mircea_popescu	you lose.
12:34	ascii_butugychag	mircea_popescu: whatcha talking about, the text is selectable
12:35	ascii_butugychag	in those graphs.
12:35	mircea_popescu	the text is, yes.
12:35	mircea_popescu	BUT THE GRAPHS THEMSELVES
12:35	mircea_popescu	are not.
12:35	mircea_popescu	i see no indication as to how the arrows go.
12:35	mircea_popescu	suppose i want the circles filled in red. what now ?
12:35	mircea_popescu	how do i SEARCH for "arrow pointing like this" ? hm ?
12:36	mircea_popescu	learn to alphabet already, ya buncha "visual thinker" illiterate louts!
12:36	ascii_butugychag	i agree, whole thing oughta be a sexpr underneath
12:36	ascii_butugychag	where you ~could~ search for 'red arrows' etc
12:36	mircea_popescu	heh.
12:36	ascii_butugychag	but UNDERNEATH.
12:36	ascii_butugychag	'i wanna hug a gurl not a set of loose guts'
12:37	trinque	why is sexp such a good representation for programming but not math
12:37	ascii_butugychag	trinque: it is a good representation for directly manipulating ast
12:37	ascii_butugychag	this is rather like asking why a heap of guts is the correct interface for a surgeon but not a lover !
12:38	trinque	that statement does not make any argument for why the seemingly arbitrary syntax of mathematics is good
12:38	ascii_butugychag	for ~authoring~ maths - absolutely, gimme sexpr.
12:38	trinque	and applies as easily to C++ or any other hell
12:38	ascii_butugychag	trinque: because it is compact.
12:38	ascii_butugychag	and i don't always like the notation.;
12:38	ascii_butugychag	but a 1 line equation beats two pages of ascii crud.
12:39	guruvan	what's going on guise?
12:40	trinque	ascii_butugychag: there is python (or cursed rubby) which is "more compact" like your equation, yet I prefer lisp
12:40	trinque	why?
12:40	ascii_butugychag	and i'm not interested in writing word 'nabla' instead of ∇ every time !111
		↖
12:41	ascii_butugychag	trinque: compact at a price
12:41	trinque	this is why urbit did those glyphs or whatever they called them
12:41	trinque	why write "if" when you can ?!? or w/e
12:41	ascii_butugychag	now that's garbage.
12:41	ascii_butugychag	just like perl is.
12:41	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41650 @ 0.00050414 = 20.9974 BTC [-]
12:42	mircea_popescu	nothing much guruvan, some tweet of yours got linked
12:42	ascii_butugychag	people who ~live and die~ by motherfucking compact equations, ALWAYS invent hieroglyphs
12:42	guruvan	saw that - can hadly believe it's been so long since I've been in here
12:42	ascii_butugychag	just like mechanic buys a hammer and NOT a brick.
12:43	mircea_popescu	just like everyone tickles the woman in random way in private. this is math porn what you're proposing.
12:43	guruvan	I see you guys still remember how bitcoin works :)
12:44	ascii_butugychag	find me an actual working, practicing maths pro who disagrees with me on this.
		↖
12:44	mircea_popescu	possibly the only group left. there's been some sort of strange deluge or something.
12:44	ascii_butugychag	who wants to use motherfucking words
12:44	ascii_butugychag	as if it were euclid's greece
12:44	mircea_popescu	hey, euclid's greece did alright.
12:44	ascii_butugychag	mno.
12:44	ascii_butugychag	that tower only gets so-high.
12:44	mircea_popescu	find me actual working programmers that want to use static linked binaries. like it were 1970s MIT!
12:45	trinque	still no reason put why using words and sexps is a good thing in programming, a bad thing in mathematics
12:45	mircea_popescu	!up ascii_butugychag
12:45	mircea_popescu	"that tower only gets so high!"
12:45	ascii_butugychag	trinque: a good and necessary thing in mathematics. but i don't want to view them with eyes!
12:45	trinque	give a reason! lol
12:46	ascii_butugychag	because 1-line equation can be 4 pages of sexp ???
12:46	mircea_popescu	let's make it plain : the forum language will be alphabetic, not hieroglyphic. how you paint the meaning from the letters into little icons in your own livingroom - your problem.
12:46	mircea_popescu	but i do not wish to see them, pray with them, and so following.
12:46	ascii_butugychag	then forum doesn't do maths.
12:47	mircea_popescu	the forum is whenever one talks to another publicly.
12:47	trinque	"because."
12:47	mircea_popescu	if you're not fucking, you're in the forum.
12:47	ascii_butugychag	and i notice that mircea_popescu links to bitmaps of gurlz, not homeric descriptions in 10,000 words...
12:48	mircea_popescu	zing.
12:48	mod6	hawtbutts.txt
12:48	mircea_popescu	<mircea_popescu> quick test : does http://trilema.com/2015/sa-muare-haterii-mei-doi/#selection-83.0-83.6 blink for anyone but me ? << lemme reiterate
12:48	assbot	Sa muare haterii mei (doi) on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1ZguysY )
12:49	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38569 @ 0.00050657 = 19.5379 BTC [+] {2}
12:49	trinque	if a guy were trying to understand the rationale behind using dense symbols in mathematics from this conversation, he would fail.
12:52	BingoBoingo	Assorted things https://archive.is/9bLoV
12:52	assbot	Butters now Supposed to run full nodes to use lite wallets : Buttcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1mQSQ0Y )
12:52	mircea_popescu	trinque yet the explanation is very simple : a certain set of brain circuitry is deeply involved in novel thought (about everything, including mathematics) and at the same time refractary to structure.
12:52	mircea_popescu	generally people trying to think in this particular sense try and dope it.
12:57	mircea_popescu	such as by using structureless or poorly structured "symbols".
		↖
12:57	mircea_popescu	this, obviously, is anathema to communication.
12:58	trinque	aha, seemed entirely psychological. "the mysterious symbols of the world of mathematics! greek letters even!"
12:58	mircea_popescu	it is also fundamentally why math "is hard". for every non-retarded young adult who believes math is hard you have a case of a child who developed his own, highly personal set of shitty symbols, and then never received a good explanation as to what the difference between his and "everyone else"'s is, so got lost.
		↖
12:58	mircea_popescu	because, obviously, the problem of translating between sets is untractable.
12:59	mircea_popescu	the problems people encounter with statistics are probably the most obvious place to study this issue.
12:59	BingoBoingo	Apparently social media is talking about asciilifeform's Malleum patch when they were largely afraid to discuss qntra on Oregon https://archive.is/f1p8H
12:59	assbot	Cyril Blanc on Twitter: "@MrChrisEllis @dnivi3 @PQMerkle https://t.co/HpD1xhTa3w" ... ( http://bit.ly/1mQUorP )
13:00	mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo prolly a good time to link http://deedbot.org/deed-392674-1.txt
13:00	assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1mQUIqG )
13:03	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3300 @ 0.00050414 = 1.6637 BTC [-] {2}
13:07	guruvan	BingoBoingo: classic - banning light clients is now censorship - I'll let who I like connect to my nodes tyvfm
13:10	BingoBoingo	Seriously, what part of "MINE!!!1111!!!" don't people understand. Fucking socialism.
13:13	BingoBoingo	Anyways guruvan I'm glad you stopped by. Keep coming back, it works when you work it.
13:16	phf	pdf is ~plaintext~ container format that lets you encode an hierarchical structure of nodes of type. there's a handful of standard node types geared towards fixed page layout. there's also a handful of types that let you embed content, i.e. inline a binary blob <</Filter/FlateDecode/Length 10>>stream....10 bytes....endstream. latex produces pdfs with intimate awareness of the format's abilities, i.e. sensible plain text nodes that
13:16	phf	annotate visual layout nodes with semantically meaningful components (pages, paragraphs, etc.)
13:17	guruvan	thanks BingoBoingo - will be around more this year :) - it's gonna be a crazy year
13:17	mircea_popescu	!up ascii_butugychag
13:18	phf	but of course there's tons of companies that have some variation of "breakup my text into individual pictures of letters with precise x/y positioning, for extra points place the nodes in a random order so that tools like pdftotext barf"
13:18	BingoBoingo	guruvan: Seriously. Wasn't much to do in 2015 except lay groundwork for 2016
13:18	ascii_butugychag	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366851 << abuse is no argument. mechanic can bash in skull with wrench. does not follow that wrench ought to be soft.
13:18	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 17:57:01; mircea_popescu: such as by using structureless or poorly structured "symbols".
13:19	mircea_popescu	and speaking of http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366820 what of http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=let+me+formalize+from%3Amircea ?
13:19	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 17:44:07; ascii_butugychag: find me an actual working, practicing maths pro who disagrees with me on this.
13:19	assbot	1 results for 'let me formalize from:mircea' - #bitcoin-assets search
13:19	ascii_butugychag	will take my maximally-compact notations from my cold, dead hands.
13:19	guruvan	agreed BingoBoingo - it was a long year of much work, and much that's just been tossed by the end of it too
13:19	mircea_popescu	what, do i not count ? is systems theory not math ?
13:19	mircea_popescu	i'll tell you that i do prefer spellking out "sum x over y for i to j" than squiggling it up. heck, i have the girls read out bash commands explaining what they do.
13:19	mircea_popescu	and etc.
13:19	ascii_butugychag	philosophy. (not a dirty word, just maths that haven't been mechanized)
13:20	mircea_popescu	heh.
13:20	mircea_popescu	and we come back to the same "bad math" problem :
13:20	mircea_popescu	this "notationed" math is ALSO not math that's been mechanised.
13:20	mircea_popescu	it's just been shittified.
13:20	ascii_butugychag	and yes, e.g., maxwell's equations stated verbally might be more pleasing to a n00b
13:20	ascii_butugychag	but DEATH to somebody who needs to formally ~manipulate~ them.
13:21	ascii_butugychag	and needs to hold a MAXIMUM of thought from the page in his head
13:21	mircea_popescu	i never had a problem.
13:21	mircea_popescu	as we speak i hold all the pages i hold anyway.
13:21	phf	presumably mp disagrees with iverson's "notation as a tool of thought" paper in principle
13:22	BingoBoingo	<ascii_butugychag> philosophy. (not a dirty word, just maths that haven't been mechanized) << Prolly hard to mechanize "Fear and Trembling"
13:22	ascii_butugychag	mircea_popescu doesn't do mathematics, this is evident. perhaps he did at one point, but not now.
13:22	ascii_butugychag	what other notational element, i wonder, would he have us give up? matrix ?
13:22	ascii_butugychag	verbalize the elements?
13:22	ascii_butugychag	let's have verbal quaternion ?
13:22	mircea_popescu	which part of what i said dja actually disagree with ?
13:23	ascii_butugychag	the 'notation as obscurantist claptrap'
13:23	mircea_popescu	is this a symbol ?
13:24	ascii_butugychag	which this
13:24	mircea_popescu	'notation as obscurantist claptrap'
13:25	mircea_popescu	why not use पॢ, i wonder.
13:26	ascii_butugychag	because it saves no space/time.
13:26	ascii_butugychag	because we did not have any reason to agree on the hieroglyph.
13:26	BingoBoingo	https://charliehorse55.wordpress.com/2016/01/09/how-nvidia-breaks-chrome-incognito/
13:26	assbot	How Nvidia breaks Chrome Incognito | charliehorse55 ... ( http://bit.ly/1mR0Eji )
13:27	mircea_popescu	if im stuck with reading some "maximum thought" concoction i have to spell it out and read it anyway.
13:27	mircea_popescu	now : i do not propose that this is either better, or obligatory for anyone else. whoever can fuck whatever bottle they most like. but i also can't let stand this theory that somehow obscurantist claptrap is the only way to think.
13:27	mircea_popescu	one can think just fine in an alphabet, no need to play the egyptian priest.
13:28	ascii_butugychag	as if using longhand made text somehow magically comprehensible to all and unpriestlike.
13:28	ascii_butugychag	!s variety speak
13:28	assbot	57 results for 'variety speak' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=variety+speak
13:28	mircea_popescu	alphabet has its advantages.
13:29	mircea_popescu	unrelated to content.
13:29	ascii_butugychag	also has its crippling limitations.
13:29	mircea_popescu	that part's still in dispute.
13:29	BingoBoingo	From the mines: "Page C3 of today's NYT in print: "It's a good time to be David Bowie.""
13:33	mircea_popescu	<phf> presumably mp disagrees with iverson's "notation as a tool of thought" paper in principle << i do not. i do however disagree with the theory that tool is substitute sufficient.
13:33	mircea_popescu	yes you can figure out what quarks do in either matriceal or formulaic form. but if you can't afterwards SAY what the fuck you found to either heisenberg or schroedinger, the problem's in your head.
		↖
13:33	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5550 @ 0.00050697 = 2.8137 BTC [+] {2}
13:34	phf	ah
13:35	mircea_popescu	there's many things in this "thought" bag.
13:35	phf	that's like chinese math, transformation on formulas carried out mechanically by memorizing the book
13:35	mircea_popescu	it's one thing to figure something out. it's another thing to figure out what you figured out. and so on.
13:36	mircea_popescu	if you're lucky and enough work has been put on doing the transforms that a function was found. plenty of times the transformation's either not obviously or not at all formalizable.
		↖
13:36	mircea_popescu	i can if you wish pick a page of strings theory for you to transform into any other theoretical framweork of your choice. but might as well take a page of source from gcc and write the lisp.
13:37	mircea_popescu	which reminds me of our very own brave sir gabriel_laddel and his x.org thing
13:40	ben_vulpes	is HOSTALIASES a thing on linuxen besides ubuntu? v-dns sounds nifty, but i'd like to maintain my own entries.
13:40	mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes technically you could only put your own pubkey in there, and still let everyone else benefit from yours
13:40	mircea_popescu	while you only building your own.
13:43	mircea_popescu	anyway, afaik hostaliases is standaerd on all linuxen, but it runs into problems with sanitation, for things that run as root
13:43	mircea_popescu	such as ping or w/e
13:45	phf	i've spent most of my college years learning math by sometimes translating problem into sexp and running it inside lisp, to get a hang of the numeric or combinatoric behavior of the problem. there were parts of the problem that were easier to grok in sexp and then there were parts that i eventually wrote an approximation of latex formula reader for. i don't really have a clear idea of where the boundry is though
		↖
13:46	mircea_popescu	importantly, the boundary must be where another begins and you end.
13:46	mircea_popescu	this "you gotta run the city in which i wrote the letter to read the letter" thing is for the birds.
		↖
13:46	mircea_popescu	i ain't building no cities to read anything, ever.
13:49	phf	so what do you do when not everything fits in head?
13:50	mircea_popescu	you restructure the abstraction tree, which is clearly broken.
13:53	phf	hmm
13:53	mircea_popescu	you'll note that variety speak or no variety speak, i can explain the whole thing or any part to anyone of any persuasion. that i may not feel like expending the effort for any random derp is true, but also not germane.
13:53	mircea_popescu	this, importantly, is not a feat of magic.
13:54	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27650 @ 0.00050413 = 13.9392 BTC [-] {3}
13:57	phf	my impression of traditional education is that when everything doesn't fit in your head, you continue cramming it, until in the flash of insight, a way of restructuring the tree comes to you. in this case notation allows for a caching mechanism. somewhere on a blackboard there's a cluster of meaning, that you no longer have in your head, because head is full, so having that cluster contain higher density of information allows for a more
13:57	phf	rapid load
13:57	mircea_popescu	!up ascii_butugychag
13:57	ascii_butugychag	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366935 << and rotor is..?
13:57	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 18:46:27; mircea_popescu: this "you gotta run the city in which i wrote the letter to read the letter" thing is for the birds.
13:58	mircea_popescu	phf to that the obvious counter is that sure, but before you've reached a point where you can actually speak of it... it's premature to speak of it ?
13:58	ascii_butugychag	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366919 << this is uncontroversial i think
13:58	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 18:33:28; mircea_popescu: yes you can figure out what quarks do in either matriceal or formulaic form. but if you can't afterwards SAY what the fuck you found to either heisenberg or schroedinger, the problem's in your head.
13:59	ascii_butugychag	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366925 << notation is very often a tool for pseudointellectual flimflammery, yes
13:59	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 18:36:12; mircea_popescu: if you're lucky and enough work has been put on doing the transforms that a function was found. plenty of times the transformation's either not obviously or not at all formalizable.
13:59	ascii_butugychag	but so is 'plain language.'
13:59	mircea_popescu	only to noobs.
13:59	ascii_butugychag	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366933 << aha! DERIVE !
13:59	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 18:45:40; phf: i've spent most of my college years learning math by sometimes translating problem into sexp and running it inside lisp, to get a hang of the numeric or combinatoric behavior of the problem. there were parts of the problem that were easier to grok in sexp and then there were parts that i eventually wrote an approximation of latex formula reader for. i don't really have a clear idea of where the boundry is thoug
13:59	mircea_popescu	and rotor is mechanized comunion, strangely enough.
13:59	ascii_butugychag	and macsyma is mega-spiffy, using it as we speak even
14:00	phf	mircea_popescu: aaah now i see what you mean by obscurantist claptrap
14:01	mircea_popescu	look at lacan's "work" to truly see what i mean, and look at all the junk coming out of the usg's 3rd generation to truly know what i mean
14:01	mircea_popescu	actually... lemme take a screenshot here.
14:01	ascii_butugychag	and i notice they aren't abusing integral signs
14:01	ascii_butugychag	(the climatologists and 'economics' - perhaps are)
14:02	ascii_butugychag	but in either case, a liver largely consisting of scar tissue is not an argument against having had a liver in the first place.
14:04	mircea_popescu	http://dpaste.com/0A0WRTM << there, consider that.
		↖
14:04	assbot	dpaste: 0A0WRTM ... ( http://bit.ly/1OXCqAm )
14:04	mircea_popescu	she has not actually anything to say to it. she;'s some 25 yo from nowhere who has figured out which side the butter's breaded on and is off to washington to live with alfie.
14:05	mircea_popescu	BUT if the symbol "activist" ran into any trouble... there's a newly minted "educator" symbol to the rescue.
		↖
14:05	ascii_butugychag	snorefest!
14:05	mircea_popescu	i don't think the postmodern symbological deluge has any sort of match or point of comparison.
14:05	ascii_butugychag	and yeah we have titanic dormitories full of these here
14:06	mircea_popescu	aha.
14:06	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38100 @ 0.00050815 = 19.3605 BTC [+] {5}
14:06	mircea_popescu	the only reason her bullshit sinks, however, is that i do not permit symbologistics.
14:07	mircea_popescu	the only reason she exists is the perhaps well intended, but also castrated inclination of educated males to go "oh, i wonder what the hyeroglypsh mean, can't be discarded out of hand"
14:07	ascii_butugychag	i thought it was because it was solid brick with no flotational volume ?
14:07	mircea_popescu	which by now is so pervasive even ged-educated nigger in the ghetto knows enough to scream "you don't know what it's like"
14:07	mircea_popescu	herp.
14:08	ascii_butugychag	nah she exists for the same reason electrical wires running to my house are warm
14:08	ascii_butugychag	just an unfortunate fact of thermodynamic loss
14:08	mircea_popescu	there's a reason unicode wars (you know, the thing with the integral ?) are mostly around "how to color figurines" now.
14:08	mircea_popescu	this "abstractions" thing mostly works for thine enemies.
14:09	mircea_popescu	you save some time, they get saved from extinction.
14:09	ascii_butugychag	if all of the railroads are in the hands of hitler, it does not follow that i ought to take an interest in travel by oxcart.
14:09	mircea_popescu	perhaps.
14:09	ascii_butugychag	not 'save some time.' but ABLE TO DEAL IN CONCEPTS of the level i deal in, AT ALL
14:10	mircea_popescu	yet all the wires being in the hand of hitler doth make you take an interest in gossipds.
14:10	ascii_butugychag	it isnt an oxcart
14:10	ascii_butugychag	but more like what i wanted out of the net to begin with.
14:10	mircea_popescu	well it isn't anything, so far.
14:10	ascii_butugychag	aha
14:10	mircea_popescu	i dunno who wanted "the railroads" out of reality.
14:10	ascii_butugychag	but since it was referred to, i assumed mircea_popescu was thinking of the idea.
14:11	ascii_butugychag	(on my own desk, it is more than an idea, but this is not official yet)
14:15	phf	as far as i understand, the point is to walk with mp to his vantage point to see something or other. for example that the railroad runs from hitlertown to the work camps. pretty sure he'll just be delighted if you invited him to your own private railroad that goes from your living quarters to your wineries.
14:16	ascii_butugychag	i'm entirely with iverson on this one.
14:16	ascii_butugychag	'notation is worth +80 iq'
14:17	ascii_butugychag	in the right hands, yes
14:17	mircea_popescu	there is no such thing as iq.
14:17	mircea_popescu	in which sense, the quote is correct.
14:17	ascii_butugychag	tell this to the room-temp iq folks.
14:17	mircea_popescu	also, placebo is worth 20 hp.
14:17	mircea_popescu	(this has in point of fact been measured, and stands as such)
14:18	ascii_butugychag	when mircea_popescu calculates for own reckoning, does he use roman notation? if not, why not?
14:19	mircea_popescu	i have been known to
14:19	mircea_popescu	(in order to bother girlies.)
14:19	ascii_butugychag	http://www.loper-os.org/wp-content/romankbd.png << oblig
14:19	assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1lCzeNs )
14:19	mircea_popescu	believe it or not, latin numeral calculation IS actually possible. and they had all sorts of tricks, too
14:19	ascii_butugychag	many things are ~possible~
14:19	ascii_butugychag	!s befunge
14:19	assbot	6 results for 'befunge' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=befunge
14:20	ascii_butugychag	walking on your hands is also... possible
14:20	ascii_butugychag	and circus acrobats know some spiffy tricks.
14:20	mircea_popescu	more's the point : when you calculate for your own reckoning, do you use inches or milimeters ?
14:20	ascii_butugychag	usually the latter
14:20	mircea_popescu	aha.
14:21	mircea_popescu	know anyon who doesn't ? etc.
14:21	*	mircea_popescu will bbl.
14:21	ascii_butugychag	actually like most folks living in usa who do any machine work, i own two sets of everything.
14:21	ascii_butugychag	incl. drill bits.
14:21	ascii_butugychag	this is, i know, sad.
14:26	phf	what's wrong with a moscato anyway? :o
14:29	punkman	"Postel tarpit (n.) - A system that has tried so hard to accept all possible input that any change becomes backwards-incompatible"
14:32	punkman	wonky definition but I like the name
14:34	punkman	http://www.cookcomputing.com/blog/archives/000551.html
14:34	assbot	Cook Computing - Postel's Robustness Principle Revisited ... ( http://bit.ly/1ndJtbF )
14:34	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16200 @ 0.00051465 = 8.3373 BTC [+] {3}
14:38	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11150 @ 0.00050411 = 5.6208 BTC [-] {2}
14:46	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30500 @ 0.00051576 = 15.7307 BTC [+] {4}
14:51	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37900 @ 0.00051794 = 19.6299 BTC [+] {3}
14:57	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9100 @ 0.00051867 = 4.7199 BTC [+] {3}
15:07	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9500 @ 0.00050411 = 4.789 BTC [-] {2}
15:19	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 104171 @ 0.00050296 = 52.3938 BTC [-] {6}
15:20	BingoBoingo	<ascii_butugychag> but in either case, a liver largely consisting of scar tissue is not an argument against having had a liver in the first place. << B.. But Discriminashun, Cundishuns...
		~ 20 minutes ~
15:40	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2200 @ 0.00051198 = 1.1264 BTC [+] {2}
15:43	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29750 @ 0.00051239 = 15.2436 BTC [+] {2}
15:51	deedbot-	[Qntra] Zero-Conf Shenanigans Lead To Peter Todd Reddit Ban - http://qntra.net/2016/01/zero-conf-shenanigans-lead-to-peter-todd-reddit-ban/
16:00	thestringpuller	damn i wanted that story
16:01	BingoBoingo	thestringpuller: You could have submitted something.
16:03	thestringpuller	i didn't know it was news cuz coinbase.
16:03	thestringpuller	next on bitcoin scammers in VC world: "Coinbase sues Peter Todd for 0.01btc"
16:06	shinohai	kek
16:06	shinohai	That sounds more like Roger Ver
16:08	thestringpuller	the dude who had to move to tokyo cause US wouldn't let him visit?
16:08	thestringpuller	"risk of becoming an illegal immigrant"
16:15	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3007 @ 0.0005135 = 1.5441 BTC [+] {2}
16:19	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66306 @ 0.00051291 = 34.009 BTC [-] {2}
16:27	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21187 @ 0.00050737 = 10.7496 BTC [-] {2}
		~ 22 minutes ~
16:49	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15263 @ 0.00050217 = 7.6646 BTC [-]
16:53	deedbot-	[Qntra] Earliest Possible Date For XTCoin Fork Passes - http://qntra.net/2016/01/earliest-possible-date-for-xtcoin-fork-passes/
		~ 15 minutes ~
17:08	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6400 @ 0.00051011 = 3.2647 BTC [+] {2}
17:16	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17619 @ 0.00051986 = 9.1594 BTC [+] {3}
		~ 19 minutes ~
17:35	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3312 @ 0.00051763 = 1.7144 BTC [-]
17:39	mircea_popescu	!up raedah
		~ 23 minutes ~
18:03	jurov	"I need your agreement in order to republish your contributions under the MIT license. The reason for relicensing Electrum is two-fold: firstly, we want to make Electrum more attractive to developers looking to integrate lightweight Bitcoin functionality into their systems, and a more permissive license is helpful in this regard."
18:03	jurov	"Secondly, we want to release a new version of Electrum for mobile devices and tablets. In order to make Electrum available in various app stores (such as Microsoft's Windows Store or Apple's App Store) we cannot keep the restrictive GPL license, as publishing Electrum on some of these stores may break the terms of the GPL."
18:04	jurov	gpl stuff can't be in appstore, rly?
18:04	mircea_popescu	are you going to give it ?
18:04	mircea_popescu	right.
18:04	BingoBoingo	<jurov> gpl stuff can't be in appstore, rly? << Ya Rly
18:04	mircea_popescu	miserable move on their part, actually.
18:05	guruvan	you not a fan of MIT license mircea_popescu ?
18:06	mircea_popescu	but it seems par for the course. all the pimply faced wanna-be bill gates business majors know how to do anymore is cast out a net for suckers, wait until the rate of catch stops, and then try to spin it off and sell it.
18:06	mircea_popescu	so everything starts as gpl, welcomes any sucker foss head to contribute, then "progresses" to a mit license and hey, maybe apple wants to buy it!
18:06	jurov	probably not. but my contribution was like, 5 lines.
18:07	mircea_popescu	it's shameful. if you're going to prostitute yourself, at least do the world a favour and do it in istanbul, in the nude, in the dedicated quarter for ephebs
18:07	mircea_popescu	guruvan i like isis a lot more than i like mit.
18:07	mircea_popescu	and i'm one of the few guys that publicly burned the coran.
18:08	guruvan	well...that's just gonna mean they don't like you :-
18:09	mircea_popescu	they're idiots, but at least they're productive. unlike the mit imbeciles who https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ve23i5K334
		↖
18:09	assbot	MIT genuises with lightbulb - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1Zoja3F )
18:11	BingoBoingo	!up ascii_butugychag
18:11	ascii_butugychag	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1367071 << l0lwut?! productive??!
18:11	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 23:09:29; mircea_popescu: they're idiots, but at least they're productive. unlike the mit imbeciles who https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ve23i5K334
18:11	mircea_popescu	yes. productive.
18:12	ascii_butugychag	of what?
18:12	mircea_popescu	wake me up when your imperial/european drill bits produced a robot that routed the usg at tikrit.
18:13	ascii_butugychag	usg 'fought' to churn inventory and guarantee lockheed et al earmarks.
18:13	mircea_popescu	yaya.
18:13	ascii_butugychag	and to prevent ghaddafis
18:13	mircea_popescu	mit ain't routing anyone. ever.
18:14	ascii_butugychag	mit is so that smart kidz dont tmsr.
18:14	ascii_butugychag	they actually called me up last month..
18:16	jurov	"Hello, thanks for asking, but I refuse to change the license of my contribution. I cannot with clear conscience recommend a Bitcoin wallet with closed source modifications. Would you use one yourself, really?"
18:16	jurov	^ mi rather mild-mannered reply
18:16	mircea_popescu	no but you don't understand, they're only trying to.
18:19	mircea_popescu	might even make a good qntra piece. this sort of miserable behaviour needs some castigation.,
18:20	mircea_popescu	fucking emblematic of the new usa : "1. hey, we're trying to save the world, help us ; 2. hey, the rate at which new people join to help us dropped off so now we'll build an oil refinery instead, maybe shell wants to buy one!"
18:20	mircea_popescu	fuck you with a fucking stick, who the heck is supposed to fall for this ?
18:20	mircea_popescu	who. 20year olds, obviously. and... they do.
18:21	mircea_popescu	same fucking thing with "bitcoin dev companies", however many different groups are running this scam by now.
18:23	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23040 @ 0.00050125 = 11.5488 BTC [-] {2}
18:25	*	jurov scans his private #electrum log, omfg deze gems
18:25	jurov	<ThomasV> [20151130 17:22] Tribaal: I would not be too concerned about closed-source forks, in the case of Bitcoin software.
18:25	jurov	<Tribaal> [20151130 17:23] ThomasV: How so? If my fork steals your wallet, I would be pretty sure you'd mind :)
18:25	jurov	<ThomasV> [20151130 17:24] that's my point. I think nobody would use a closed source fork
18:26	jurov	i'm tired and want sleep, whoever is doing qntra, can have it
18:38	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 80527 @ 0.00051023 = 41.0873 BTC [+] {2}
18:42	BingoBoingo	<mircea_popescu> might even make a good qntra piece. this sort of miserable behaviour needs some castigation., << for srs jurov
18:42	BingoBoingo	It can wait for you to wake up
		~ 16 minutes ~
18:59	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9631 @ 0.00051024 = 4.9141 BTC [+]
19:12	mircea_popescu	in other news, the new merchant of venice is actually 40% done!
19:14	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9000 @ 0.00051687 = 4.6518 BTC [+] {2}
		~ 22 minutes ~
19:36	BingoBoingo	O.0
19:41	asciilifeform	l0l neato
19:47	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15150 @ 0.00051279 = 7.7688 BTC [-] {2}
19:49	asciilifeform	;;later tell kakobrekla http://dpaste.com/0B92T3F
19:49	assbot	dpaste: 0B92T3F ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q1cOBl )
19:49	gribble	The operation succeeded.
19:50	asciilifeform	in other nyooz,
19:50	asciilifeform	~considerably~ smoother performance on the trb+malleus nodez
19:50	asciilifeform	(vs historical)
19:51	asciilifeform	may be simply on account of the ~80% drop in traffic, though.
19:51	asciilifeform	;;later tell BingoBoingo it is not an accurate description of malleus patch to say that it only nukes peers using bloom filters. it nukes any peer which issues any command whatsoever unsupported in trb.
19:51	gribble	The operation succeeded.
19:52	BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: I haven't seen any other commands in debug.log yet. Perhaps leave a comment on post?
19:53	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: it won't show up in the log as a distinct thing
19:53	asciilifeform	just 'heathen.'
19:54	BingoBoingo	I mean before using the patch. I've only seen bloom filter from multibit/Shildebach et al hit my node.
19:56	BingoBoingo	Other commands may emerge, but bloom filter request is the only one I have seen in the wild.
19:59	mircea_popescu	anyway, maybe all this "soft-fork" bullshit is really a good opportunity to start a #b-a mining pool.
		↖
19:59	mircea_popescu	anyone want to run a pool ?
20:00	asciilifeform	on submarine ?
20:03	mircea_popescu	let's not get overdramatique.
20:04	asciilifeform	interesting idea, but what's to keep a public pool from infinite ddos 24/7.
20:06	BingoBoingo	Who says public pool? Or single point of failure? Why not fork p2pool?
20:07	mircea_popescu	iirc p2pool was unfixably slow.
20:07	BingoBoingo	hmmm
20:09	BingoBoingo	https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Software#Mining_Pool_Servers_.28backend.29 << List not inspiring confidence
20:09	assbot	Software - Bitcoin Wiki ... ( http://bit.ly/1PoE5ZR )
20:10	shinohai	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367122 <<< /me would certainly try to obtain miners to mine on a #b-a pool
20:10	assbot	Logged on 12-01-2016 00:59:53; mircea_popescu: anyway, maybe all this "soft-fork" bullshit is really a good opportunity to start a #b-a mining pool.
		↖
20:10	mircea_popescu	shinohai a few people have asked, which is why i said.
20:11	shinohai	It would be handy to mine own tx's but would require considerable hashpower, no?
20:12	mircea_popescu	;;bc,stats
20:12	gribble	Current Blocks: 392907 | Current Difficulty: 1.0388034081545589E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 393119 | Next Difficulty In: 212 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 5 hours, 45 minutes, and 15 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
20:13	mircea_popescu	not really. to guarantee same-day inclusion, you'd need 1/10/24 * 10^11 = 0.5% of the current hash rate. to guarantee the usual thing wires guarantee (2-3 days) proportionally less.
		↖
20:19	BingoBoingo	;;ticker --market all
20:19	gribble	Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 446.27, vol: 7498.99347541 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 444.001, vol: 6295.41647 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 446.8, vol: 14550.86099406 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 447.226002, vol: 37121.74600000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 447.37, vol: 112.39650116 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 454.453760989, vol: 15.66709175 | Volume-weighted last average: 446.714667061
20:21	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7300 @ 0.00051688 = 3.7732 BTC [+]
20:25	mod6	ftr: im still laughing about kako's buddy who needed the condoms in thailand
20:27	shinohai	Good to have friends that will ship you rubbers just like that when necessary.
20:27	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33732 @ 0.00050901 = 17.1699 BTC [-] {5}
20:28	mod6	ikr, solid guy
20:28	mod6	would trade again
20:35	asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367138 << well, of the hash rate ~forever~
20:35	assbot	Logged on 12-01-2016 01:13:37; mircea_popescu: not really. to guarantee same-day inclusion, you'd need 1/10/24 * 10^11 = 0.5% of the current hash rate. to guarantee the usual thing wires guarantee (2-3 days) proportionally less.
20:35	asciilifeform	at a given time.
20:36	asciilifeform	else you slip.
20:38	mircea_popescu	sure.
20:39	mircea_popescu	and it being a random process, "guarantee" is necessarily an average sort of concept.
20:39	asciilifeform	aha
20:42	ben_vulpes	kilo-log-line day, huh?
20:42	mircea_popescu	good stuff.
20:42	ben_vulpes	i caught snippets over the oar, looking forward to it.
20:46	ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366272 << whattabout the pronounceable mnemonic hashes a la urbit?
20:46	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 13:56:49; mircea_popescu: yes, naming can work like that, if 8chan.co and 94875984375983.jksldak are the same to you.
20:46	ben_vulpes	fantub tasslyb or what was it
20:46	mircea_popescu	and let me guess, you'll get them from... hets ?
20:46	*	ben_vulpes wonders if his destroyer still floats
20:46	ben_vulpes	hets?
20:46	asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=08-05-2015#1124584
20:46	assbot	Logged on 08-05-2015 01:24:40; assbot: dpaste: 2E0CYZQ: Speakables ... ( http://bit.ly/1dR5Y1j )
20:46	asciilifeform	pretty useless
20:47	asciilifeform	^ my implementation of mr. mold's early syllables
20:47	asciilifeform	(he changed them out later)
20:47	ben_vulpes	why useless? and changed to?
20:47	asciilifeform	some others
20:47	asciilifeform	and useless in that i never found a serious use for it
20:48	ben_vulpes	;;rated gernika
20:48	gribble	You have not yet rated user gernika
20:48	ben_vulpes	mwell i owe ya one
20:48	mircea_popescu	if you think i'm about to load my head with random strings...
20:50	ben_vulpes	mhm
20:50	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11200 @ 0.00051688 = 5.7891 BTC [+]
20:51	ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366337 << eve, but with btc, and on an island not in space
20:51	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 15:21:54; copypaste: i very much love the concept of a 3d game with a bitcoin economy. i've played a few, but all poorly done.
20:52	mircea_popescu	nah, eve has an inflation problem larger than the usg's.
20:52	ben_vulpes	in the sense of a game that is most effectively played with spreadsheets.
20:52	mircea_popescu	the "spreadsheets in space" thing referred to how its graphics/engine is absent,
20:53	mircea_popescu	not to how you play it.
20:53	ben_vulpes	you played trader without spreadsheets?
20:53	BingoBoingo	<mircea_popescu> nah, eve has an inflation problem larger than the usg's. << And a problem where some things had absolutely no market anywhere, like slaves.
20:53	mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes sure.
20:54	BingoBoingo	ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu even got suicide ganked once
20:54	mircea_popescu	lol
20:55	BingoBoingo	He was mining in his little pickup truck with a new recruit and then he got FOOF'd
20:55	mircea_popescu	yeah hey bb weren't you in 1btc ?
20:55	BingoBoingo	Yeah
20:55	mircea_popescu	how come you're not euloring ?!
20:55	BingoBoingo	Newsing is awfully time consuming.
20:56	mircea_popescu	anyway, the bitcoin eve society had like... a space station fully built and i dun remember how many of the not-titan class ships, a dozen or some shit
20:56	BingoBoingo	The things I have to see
20:56	mircea_popescu	but the game is incredibly boring.
20:56	BingoBoingo	The fucking "jumps" were the worst part of hauling
20:57	ben_vulpes	sinfully boring.
20:57	mircea_popescu	in tyhe end i was using that society, what was their name
20:57	ben_vulpes	and the mega-pvp, even worse.
20:57	mircea_popescu	i think i had them haul 5 bn worth of isk in 10-20mn installments
20:59	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34800 @ 0.00051688 = 17.9874 BTC [+]
20:59	mircea_popescu	but i do recall BingoBoingo did a bunch of hauls in one of those what were they called ? obelisk ?
20:59	BingoBoingo	Nah the smaller thing. By the time I trained to the obelisk is about when I bored out of eve. Fucking jumps
21:00	mircea_popescu	aha
21:00	BingoBoingo	The prospect of locking up CPU time for 8 hour autopilot runs + normal Jita lag was too much
21:00	mircea_popescu	anyway, iirc what we did was, we had a full space station that produced fuel
21:00	ben_vulpes	time based skilling, bleh.
21:01	mircea_popescu	and fuel was in high demand so we bought some precursors from jita and sold the fuel to the people in low sec
21:01	mircea_popescu	that and some worm hole digging, i recall going with hanbot
21:01	BingoBoingo	time based skilling was nbd
21:01	mircea_popescu	and with that other chick, what was her name
21:02	mircea_popescu	dude how long ago was this ? 2012 ? 13 ?
21:02	BingoBoingo	2013
21:02	ben_vulpes	dang.
21:02	mircea_popescu	feels like 30 fucking years, i reemember it as from under a concrete slab.
21:02	BingoBoingo	Summer 2013. After I'd visited here and before I was sitting here full time
21:03	mircea_popescu	i remember we kinda had enough of the shit at the same time and that guy, what's his name, the accountant guy ended up inheriting it all
21:03	mircea_popescu	smickles, that's right!
21:04	ben_vulpes	holy shit smickles
21:04	mircea_popescu	;;seen smickles
21:04	gribble	smickles was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 1 year, 30 weeks, 5 days, 21 hours, 45 minutes, and 38 seconds ago: <smickles> easily a few more bil in things like BPOs and BPCs
21:04	ben_vulpes	;;seen smickles
21:04	gribble	smickles was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 1 year, 30 weeks, 5 days, 21 hours, 45 minutes, and 40 seconds ago: <smickles> easily a few more bil in things like BPOs and BPCs
21:04	mircea_popescu	HA!
21:04	BingoBoingo	Ah, I missed that part
21:05	mircea_popescu	yeah cuz we had a fully researched or whatever it was ? bp to make that battleship
21:05	mircea_popescu	the good one.
21:05	BingoBoingo	Even jurov got sucked into it with the S.MPOE/1BTC share convertability
21:05	mircea_popescu	that alone was like 1bn then. prolly 15 bn by now lol
21:05	mircea_popescu	a yeah.
21:05	BingoBoingo	Inflation is a hell of a drug
21:14	asciilifeform	https://cryptome.org/2016-info/nk-hwasong-gulag/nk-hwasong-gulag.htm << gotta love how usg names roads 'for them'
21:14	assbot	North Korea Hwasong Gulag ... ( http://bit.ly/1IZEky3 )
21:14	*	asciilifeform can't wait for a map of washington made in pyongyang
21:15	asciilifeform	with names.
21:21	danielpbarron	ben_vulpes> you played trader without spreadsheets? << what is it for? I use strictly txt files in my various Eulora activities
21:21	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30673 @ 0.00051044 = 15.6567 BTC [-] {2}
21:21	thestringpuller	LOL smickles has only beeng gone a year. I thought it was longer than that.
21:21	ben_vulpes	year and thirty weeks
21:22	thestringpuller	i see him on steam occassionaly. must have taken early retirement.
21:22	ben_vulpes	danielpbarron: recalculates values whenever inputs change?
21:22	ben_vulpes	danielpbarron: has equations in his text files?
21:23	danielpbarron	in one called profit.txt yes
21:23	asciilifeform	what's in ruin.txt ?
21:23	ben_vulpes	haw
21:23	danielpbarron	cat: ruin.txt: No such file or directory
21:25	ben_vulpes	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366807 << aheha this from the guy who when looking at a dsl for a rules engine complained "but but what's wrong with the sexprs?!"
21:25	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 17:40:46; ascii_butugychag: and i'm not interested in writing word 'nabla' instead of ∇ every time !111
21:26	BingoBoingo	<asciilifeform> what's in ruin.txt ? << Enemies whose char would make suitable black for darkening wizard tower stones
21:26	asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: wai wut
21:27	ben_vulpes	'tis in the log
21:27	asciilifeform	rules engine ?
21:28	ben_vulpes	mhm
21:28	*	asciilifeform digs futilely for the thread
21:29	*	ben_vulpes sighs, goes looking as well
21:29	ben_vulpes	doubt rules engine made it into the log
21:30	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6908 @ 0.00050125 = 3.4626 BTC [-] {2}
21:30	asciilifeform	at any rate, the question of sexprs vs infix ('rich syntax', in derp terminology) is orthogonal to '∇ vs nabla' thing
21:32	asciilifeform	and (λ (x y) (....)) ~is~ superior to (lambda...
21:33	asciilifeform	and the keyboard of a civilized person ~ought to~ have a alt-graph metakey and a λ printed on the front facet of the L.
21:34	asciilifeform	and to compare this to the idiot 'smiley' crapolade is lunacy
21:34	asciilifeform	shit, shinola. both black, 'spreading works', the similarity ends there.
21:35	ben_vulpes	motherfucker
21:36	ben_vulpes	where did this come from and where did it go
21:36	asciilifeform	lemme guess, it was a gabriel_laddel thread
21:36	ben_vulpes	doubt it.
21:36	ben_vulpes	memory implies it was a link followed from some acl conference sponsors list.
21:37	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16400 @ 0.0005035 = 8.2574 BTC [+] {4}
21:38	asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: can you recall any ?
21:39	asciilifeform	i must've slept through this.
21:39	asciilifeform	as did assbot.
21:39	ben_vulpes	bah.
21:40	ben_vulpes	i've been digging, but the line's not showing in the logs.
21:40	ben_vulpes	not even searching for from:ben_vulpes asciilifeform http -log.bitcoin-assets.com
21:40	ben_vulpes	the sample code had some declarative rules, and your complaint was something along the lines of "why'd they get rid of the parens?!"
21:41	asciilifeform	...
21:41	*	ben_vulpes shrugs
21:41	ben_vulpes	'tis lost.
21:45	asciilifeform	let's do a brick-in-your-face-obvious illustrative case.
21:45	asciilifeform	λf. (λx. f (x x))(λx. f (x x))
21:45	asciilifeform	vs
21:46	asciilifeform	lambda f. (lambda x. f (x x))(lambda x. f (x x))
21:46	asciilifeform	(the alert reader will recognize the infamous 'y combinator.')
21:46	asciilifeform	now WHICH ONE IS READABLE
21:46	mircea_popescu	the latter.
21:47	asciilifeform	l0l
21:47	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu speaks like a fella who never has to.
21:47	asciilifeform	has to any of it.
21:47	mircea_popescu	look... i read what i read. what do you want from me ?
21:48	asciilifeform	idk, get out old notebook from school, and see how many pages it'd take you to ~unambiguously~ and ~rigorously~ english-verbalize, e.g., green's theorem ?
21:49	mircea_popescu	in 6th or 7th grade at some point i discovered sums and the sigma. i was enchanted for about a year. throughout highschool i just wrote them out.
21:50	mircea_popescu	because it seriously is no fucking gain.
21:50	asciilifeform	and when you have 11 of them nested ?
21:50	asciilifeform	also wrote out ?
21:50	mircea_popescu	besides the fact that it paginates poorly.
21:50	mircea_popescu	if you have 11 nested you fucked something up.
21:50	asciilifeform	mno.
21:50	asciilifeform	then you're writing a graphics engine, mayhap
21:50	mircea_popescu	look : if you have 11 sums nested you fucked something up.
21:50	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13750 @ 0.0005086 = 6.9933 BTC [+] {3}
21:51	asciilifeform	what next, if i need to define an operator i also fucked up ?
21:51	asciilifeform	or to use more than 26 variables ?
21:51	mircea_popescu	just define whatever the fuck and work on one sum at a fucking time already.
21:52	mircea_popescu	if i see void alfun (1, 2, 3, 4 .. 26); ima think you can't code.
21:52	asciilifeform	who said code.
21:52	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu didntcha do peano, frege, et al? how did you manage with 26 letters ?
21:52	mircea_popescu	by looking at parts at a time!
21:52	asciilifeform	we ran through all of latin, greek, went through much of hebrew on one chalkboardfull
21:52	mircea_popescu	the conceptual equivalent of writing fucking subroutines you nut you.
21:53	asciilifeform	reusing letters in 1 proof
21:53	asciilifeform	is like reusing
21:53	asciilifeform	toilet paper.
21:53	asciilifeform	during the course of ONE SHIT.
21:53	asciilifeform	even.
21:53	asciilifeform	washing it, yes.
21:54	mircea_popescu	dude get out. there's 7 bn people alive today, not to mention historically, and you think having twenty or a hundred slices of tp makes a difference ?
21:54	mircea_popescu	they're all equally dirty anyway.
21:54	asciilifeform	typically the only way any of it makes a difference to me is between grasping and not-grasping a thing.
21:55	mircea_popescu	well so fine, have at!
21:55	mircea_popescu	i'm not telling you how to grasp things, you're the one that keeps going "no true scotsman would go around without a parasol" or w/e.
21:55	asciilifeform	mno
21:55	mircea_popescu	be the scotsman with a parasol, what do i care.
21:56	asciilifeform	my position was 'maths can only adequately happen on a graphical terminal'
21:56	mircea_popescu	this is a self-ridiculing proposition.
21:56	asciilifeform	relatedly, i spend a great deal of time in uni maths library. to this day. and every so often i end up picking up a thing that was typeset on the cheap, in the dark ages, using typewriter
21:56	asciilifeform	EVEN THERE folks laboured to ascii-art the sigmas etc.
21:56	asciilifeform	inked in the integral signs.
21:56	mircea_popescu	what can i tell you.
21:56	mircea_popescu	yeah i had a raft of that retarded shit too
21:57	asciilifeform	aha
21:57	mircea_popescu	machine written for text and then hand drawn for symbolics
21:57	asciilifeform	didja ever walk up to the author, and ask 'why didntcha do plain text like euclid'
21:57	mircea_popescu	i don't remember any of it. nobody does, people who wrote it included.
21:57	mircea_popescu	yes, actually. i generally said this si fucking stupid and you people suck.
21:57	asciilifeform	aha but generally
21:58	asciilifeform	or what, mircea_popescu would've stayed in mathematics if not for the squigglies
21:58	mircea_popescu	there's plenty of squigglies in physics too. i never much cared.
21:58	mircea_popescu	there's no particular boon to understanding to be had from squiggling.
21:59	asciilifeform	it isn't about magical force of squiggle, but elementarily FITTING A THING ON A PAGE that would not otherwise fit in one eyeful.
21:59	mircea_popescu	my brain doesn't work by thje eyefull iom not a fucking toad omfg
21:59	asciilifeform	and if your working memory is titanic and you laugh, all that is needed is to come up with an example that straddles the line ~for you~
22:00	mircea_popescu	do you think i presently notated the merchant of venice so 3555 liunes fit in one page ?
22:00	mircea_popescu	it's still in my fucking head. i read it. wtf.
22:00	asciilifeform	just like you can brag about being a muscle man, but i can always fill a knapsack that you cannot move with, so you cannot say 'it does not matter what a knapsack weighs!111'
22:00	asciilifeform	merchant of venice != theorem
22:00	mircea_popescu	and you're gonna paint it red and fix it ?
22:00	mircea_popescu	because why!
22:01	asciilifeform	same basic idea as cpu cache
22:01	asciilifeform	there is such a thing as fits-in-head
22:01	mircea_popescu	i'm not a fucking cpu.
22:01	asciilifeform	your head is a finite thing.
22:01	mircea_popescu	yes, and your option is to either do a retarded sort of implicity tree by using hyeroglyphicd
22:01	asciilifeform	just like everybody;s.
22:01	mircea_popescu	or else make the thing plain text and sort it in your head like a functioning brain already.
22:02	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6285 @ 0.00051687 = 3.2485 BTC [+] {3}
22:02	asciilifeform	if mircea_popescu posts the plaintext rigorous green's theorem, i promise to read it..
22:02	mircea_popescu	you people.
22:02	mircea_popescu	that dude goes hey, rewrite this chunk of the english cannon, it is broken
22:02	mircea_popescu	then you with this
22:02	mircea_popescu	what do you think i am, a race horse ?
22:02	asciilifeform	l0lz
22:03	asciilifeform	if i have to be shiva, mircea_popescu can be a racehorse!111
22:03	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9165 @ 0.00051704 = 4.7387 BTC [+]
22:03	mircea_popescu	half the fucking things i do here each day and every day is exactly that, force people to properly plaintext their shit.
22:03	mircea_popescu	and he still wants a proof because the log is not here or something
22:04	asciilifeform	speaking of this & earlier thread, a treatise on 'v' philosophy is definitely a necessary thing
22:04	mircea_popescu	myeah.
22:04	asciilifeform	i tried to write it, actually, and ran out of juice
22:04	asciilifeform	ended up writing v instead
22:04	asciilifeform	easier.
22:04	mircea_popescu	got any pieces ?
22:05	mircea_popescu	i don't see this emerging other than by piecemeal correction, honestly.
22:06	asciilifeform	nothing immediately usable. might take another stab at it on the train tomorrow
22:06	*	asciilifeform is watching the scrolling logs from his trb nodez, it is like music, so smooth
22:06	asciilifeform	no 'blackholing', etc., any of it.
22:07	asciilifeform	(since patch)
22:08	mircea_popescu	For any smooth, simple closed positively oriented curve in a plane, if two functions are defined on any open region containing the area bounded by that curve, should those functions have continuous derivatives in the region then the integral over their sum is the integral over the region's integration of their differential.
22:08	mircea_popescu	how's that.
22:08	*	asciilifeform finds himself mentally converting this to proper format !11
22:08	mircea_popescu	lol
22:09	asciilifeform	also reminds me of canonical ru kidz rhyme,
22:09	asciilifeform	'Тело, впернутое в воду Выпирает на свободу. С массой выпертой воды Тела, впертого туды!'
22:09	asciilifeform	(archimede's law)
22:09	mircea_popescu	let me put this another way : the first, the cheapest and most formidable weapon every science teacher has to ferret out the cheat
22:09	mircea_popescu	is to hold up a piece of exam paper and say "now explain to me what's in here".
22:09	asciilifeform	now this, yes
22:10	mircea_popescu	you know this is so. you know it distinguishes the pass from the cheat.
22:10	asciilifeform	ought to include even building rubber band model.
22:10	mircea_popescu	so then... what are we on about!
22:10	asciilifeform	the canonical representation that is to be worked with by a serious user.
22:10	asciilifeform	(vs a kid asked to prove that he hadn't cribbed.)
22:11	asciilifeform	can you picture a computeralgebratron that eats english ?
22:11	asciilifeform	that doesn't make user want to eat his pistol ?
22:11	mircea_popescu	but this is not the point!
22:11	mircea_popescu	i eat it.
22:13	mod6	i like the idea that we could have a regular char set, like 127 bit ascii, and do everything from this. and if you need Sigma, its SIG, or LAMBDA, its LMA or Absolute Value, ABS.
22:13	mircea_popescu	no fucking way, this isn't how derive worked!!11
22:13	mircea_popescu	pssshhhh
22:13	asciilifeform	mod6: visit a university library and read the atrocious typewriter manuscripts.
22:13	asciilifeform	and weep.
22:13	mod6	haha.
22:14	mircea_popescu	did you or did youi not type ABS(x dx) in derive until you dropped!
22:14	mod6	it just seems like stuff like this works well: <+mircea_popescu> For any smooth, simple closed positively oriented curve in a plane, if two functions are defined on any open region containing the area bounded by that curve, should those functions have continuous derivatives in the region then the integral over their sum is the integral over the region's integration of their differential.
22:14	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: sure did
22:14	mod6	and then when it doesn't there's alway some short hand one could do without resorting to unicode or PS.
22:14	asciilifeform	mod6: now verbalize a tensor.
22:15	mircea_popescu	"a tensor"
22:15	asciilifeform	or so much as an ordinary quaternion.
22:15	asciilifeform	connection from 186.137.7.31:47303 dropped (banned)
22:15	asciilifeform	connection from 62.210.127.113:49725 dropped (banned)
22:15	asciilifeform	connection from 186.137.7.31:47307 dropped (banned)
22:15	asciilifeform	connection from 62.210.127.113:49726 dropped (banned)
22:15	asciilifeform	^ lulzz
22:15	mod6	i dunno? sig = [T(e1)T(e2)T(e3)]
22:15	asciilifeform	ahahahaha but not verbal !!
22:16	asciilifeform	you used... notation!11
22:16	mircea_popescu	and for the record : NO THEOREM, no rule or function or anything in ALL OF MATH can survive without the [usually more important] limits and domain definition.
22:16	asciilifeform	aha
22:16	mod6	something like that? im not really only saying verbal. im just saying, hey, lets practice safe ascii.
22:16	mircea_popescu	i couldn't care less you use sigma or the integral. what matters is the foreword
22:16	asciilifeform	there is always chunks we haven't any shorthand for, yes
22:16	mircea_popescu	now simbolize "positive oriented curve"
22:16	mircea_popescu	so then what the bloody hell.
22:16	asciilifeform	verbal dressing is 'part of balanced diet.'
22:17	mircea_popescu	pfff
22:17	mircea_popescu	the "symbolized" math thing makes kids stupid
22:17	mircea_popescu	(they focus on the domain and fail to comprehend the limit. it's how we neded up with the power rangers in the first place.
22:17	mircea_popescu	the heresies of barbarians are not accidental, but driven by fundamental stupidities of their culture.)
22:17	asciilifeform	they are driven by what the broken pieces are that they find to glue into mosaics, are of.
22:18	asciilifeform	whether roman frescoes or 19th c. mathematics.
22:18	mircea_popescu	i bet you they all grew up as kids among a herd of wolves worshipping the symbol, never once thinking to make them write it down in words.
22:18	mircea_popescu	and then you wonder why idiot anglos have "issues" with word problems.
22:18	mircea_popescu	wonder away.
22:18	asciilifeform	wai wut
22:18	mod6	<+mircea_popescu> "a tensor" << haha, i missed this
22:19	asciilifeform	'tenser, said the tensor' (tm) (r) (bester)
22:19	mircea_popescu	yeah well ?
22:19	asciilifeform	lacan et al made the exact same kind of salad from words
22:19	mircea_popescu	not at all.
22:20	asciilifeform	as mathemasturbatory abusers from symbols
22:20	mircea_popescu	nah, those are just idiots, the lacan troop were actual trolls.
22:20	mircea_popescu	guy had a (rather transparent) profit motive.
22:20	asciilifeform	takes an expert entomologist to distinguish the result
22:20	mircea_popescu	this it does.
22:23	mod6	I guess this does actually effect us a bit -- i mean, lets say we wanna do some math modeling or expound upon some properties of something fourier whatever, and send it to the ML... now you gotta have it in ascii otherwise you can't sign it.
22:23	mircea_popescu	aha
22:24	mircea_popescu	the reason we spend so much ink on this is that it is in fact the biggest problem we met yet.
22:24	asciilifeform	y'know, just because you force the 8th bit of every bt to 0 doesn't make it 'human-readable'
22:24	asciilifeform	as the xml bozos taught us, to much grief
22:25	asciilifeform	in fact, this is exactly the kind of error that gave us xml
22:25	mircea_popescu	you're so far not content with A FINITE ALPHABET!
22:25	mircea_popescu	heathen
22:25	asciilifeform	finite includes the symbols of cultured men
22:25	mircea_popescu	you can't finite the infinite arbitrarily.
22:25	mircea_popescu	for all you knwo your kid will come up with novel shit.
22:25	asciilifeform	eh that's easy
22:25	asciilifeform	culture stopped.
22:26	mircea_popescu	pfff
22:26	asciilifeform	but in point of fact glyphs ought to work like amiga .MOD music file format.
22:26	mircea_popescu	anyway, i'm not prepared for this matter to get a ruling.
22:26	mircea_popescu	much further argument must yet be heard.
22:26	asciilifeform	i.e. you would embed the glyph, if it is a non-traditional one, and represented as an s-expr driving a vectorizer
22:27	asciilifeform	in a logical way
22:27	mircea_popescu	"as the xml bozos taught us, to much grief"
22:27	asciilifeform	(in .MOD, instrument patches are part of the file)
22:27	asciilifeform	i'm half-convinced that naggum painfully killed himself to pay for xml.
22:29	mircea_popescu	they tried the same sleigh of hand, basically. "oh, driving a vectorizer in a logical way"
22:29	mircea_popescu	how about you drink benzene and talk to the stove.
22:29	mircea_popescu	in a logical way.
22:29	asciilifeform	l0l
22:29	asciilifeform	thing is, anything the xml folks did was doomed to be an act of retardation. because they ~were~ the wrong people.
22:29	asciilifeform	the wrong people had a seat at the table.
22:29	mircea_popescu	ya im sure you're special.
22:30	mircea_popescu	the secret to winning the war isn't to make the other motherfucker die for his country. it's to discourage this motherfucking from thinking he can walk up the wall.
22:30	asciilifeform	it was a classical 'committee' thing.
22:30	mircea_popescu	so it was.
22:31	mircea_popescu	it'd have failed even more miserably if god himself sat with budhha and fucked the actual shiva on that very table.
22:32	asciilifeform	the whole xml (actually sgml, the root of the disease) crock of shit was fundamentally an intellectual crime in that it set out by pretending that sexpr did not exist, that lisp never happened
22:32	mod6	<+mircea_popescu> how about you drink benzene and talk to the stove. << haha
22:32	asciilifeform	and 'reasoned' from there
22:32	asciilifeform	and bloviating louts got to 'solve' the 'problem'
22:32	asciilifeform	in the now very familiar usgtronic sense.
22:32	mircea_popescu	they did all sorts of stupid shit, but again, the whole "a wizard did it, to a vectorizer, logically" is enough to sink that ship.
22:32	mircea_popescu	everyone always wanting to have jets.
22:33	asciilifeform	'truetype', the thing that made the adobe partners rich, was actually this
22:33	asciilifeform	and it worked.
22:33	mircea_popescu	;;google truetype exploit
22:34	gribble	Project Zero: One font vulnerability to rule them all #1: Introducing ...: <http://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2015/07/one-font-vulnerability-to-rule-them-all.html>; Microsoft Windows TrueType Font parsing zero-day vulnerability ...: <http://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/microsoft-windows-truetype-font-parsing-zero-day-vulnerability-used-limited-attacks>; Recent Zero-Day (1 more message)
22:34	asciilifeform	you are actually looking at it right now.
22:34	asciilifeform	exploitability does not drop from the sky, no.
22:34	phf	could be looking at bdf/pcf
22:35	asciilifeform	i can write an exploitable calculator, what of it.
22:35	mircea_popescu	ima give this theory a very cautious maybe.
22:38	asciilifeform	incidentally, sgml was ibm grasping for a relevance toehold
22:38	asciilifeform	knowing that it Musted Die
22:38	asciilifeform	searched for a way to sink a claw into the living.
22:39	asciilifeform	like any proper кощей.
22:39	asciilifeform	ibm cavorted in a 'lisp never happened' parallel universe for a loooong time.
22:39	asciilifeform	arguably, even NOW.
22:40	asciilifeform	and the bloody mess worked as a magnet for ten thousand insect men
22:40	asciilifeform	fond of 'libraryizing', categorizing, classifying, filing and misfiling.
22:41	asciilifeform	see, e.g., RDF/
22:41	asciilifeform	.
22:41	asciilifeform	OWL.
22:41	asciilifeform	these buggers ~won~, in the sense of extinguishing all life in anything they touched.
22:42	mircea_popescu	eh, life managed to extinguish itself on its very own well enough.
22:44	trinque	asciilifeform │ and (λ (x y) (....)) ~is~ superior to (lambda... << with this I have no problem at all.
22:44	asciilifeform	l0l trinque missed mega-thr3ad
22:45	trinque	:( but I am enjoying it!
22:46	phf	apropos i like how cl does it, there's a set of characters that are predefined to be standard and portable, and it's basically an mp set: alphabet, digits, top row, handful of controls like newline. each character has a numeric code and a verbose name #\a #\b #\space #\newline. there's a handful of predicates that let you query characters basic nature, upcasep/downcasep/whitespacep. that's it. an implementation though can choose to
22:46	phf	include any number of extra characters, say code 120 #\lambda, and also decide how it wants to present them to console/file (say, by writing unicode, or letting user choose the encoding). so a maxima machine can have a set of mathematical symbols for there and then, but not with any sort of claim to univesality.
22:47	asciilifeform	phf: iirc originally standard was to understand what glyphs are
22:47	asciilifeform	it is how character became a distinct type
22:47	asciilifeform	non-interchangeable with numerics
22:47	asciilifeform	note ^
22:47	asciilifeform	but it was nixed, because folks other than symbolics were allowed to have their tard-say
22:48	asciilifeform	and so the result was, as always is from committee, a chimera.
22:48	mircea_popescu	wait, wut ?
22:48	asciilifeform	https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node135.html
22:48	assbot	13. Characters ... ( http://bit.ly/1UKQpaV )
22:49	mircea_popescu	"In general, characters in Common Lisp are not true objects; eq cannot be counted upon to operate on them reliably. In particular, it is possible that the expression
22:49	mircea_popescu	(let ((x z) (y z)) (eq x y))
22:49	mircea_popescu	may be false rather than true, if the value of z is a character."
22:49	mircea_popescu	oh get the fuck out.
22:49	asciilifeform	'Each character code is composed from a character script and a character label. The convention by which a character script and character label compose a character code is implementation dependent. [X3J13 did not approve all parts of the proposal from its Subcommittee on Characters. As a result, some features that were approved appear to have no purpose.'
22:49	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: this is CORRECT
22:50	mircea_popescu	correct to what.
22:50	asciilifeform	and it is a preemptive and permanent cure for the unicode retardation.
22:50	asciilifeform	characters as a distinct animal from numerics.
22:50	mircea_popescu	and how do i search ?
22:50	asciilifeform	http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/f_search.htm
22:50	assbot	CLHS: Function SEARCH ... ( http://bit.ly/1UKQBa8 )
22:51	mircea_popescu	"The implementation may choose to search sequence-2 in any order; there is no guarantee on the number of times the test is made."
22:51	mircea_popescu	what ?
22:51	asciilifeform	you can search any set of anything for which equality is defined!
22:51	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: that was a warning not to attach side effects to the act of comparison
22:51	mircea_popescu	who the fuck writes code like this.
22:51	asciilifeform	(who would? i've nfi)
22:52	asciilifeform	but, as when reading a municipal fire code,
22:52	asciilifeform	know that ~somebody~ must have.
22:52	mircea_popescu	dude if you imagine it is acceptable for me to sit here looking at two strings AND NOT KNOW exactly what the machine will do if i tell it to search
22:52	mircea_popescu	you're from another universe.
22:52	asciilifeform	the machine will compare every element to your search item.
22:52	asciilifeform	what part of this is a mega-mystery.
22:53	mircea_popescu	does it bubblesort ?
22:53	asciilifeform	this is not implicit in the act of searching
22:53	asciilifeform	on any system
22:53	mircea_popescu	i wish to know wtf it does omg.
22:53	asciilifeform	by default, it starts from beginning and iterates, comparing each thing, until finds or until runs out of thing.
22:53	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10831 @ 0.00050125 = 5.429 BTC [-] {2}
22:53	asciilifeform	this is how search on an unsorted list works anywhere in the universe
22:54	mircea_popescu	iterates ? what, by one item ?
22:54	asciilifeform	how else
22:54	mircea_popescu	no, this is not how search works "anywhere" in the universe.
22:54	asciilifeform	i get it, mircea_popescu wants boyer-moore
22:54	asciilifeform	etc
22:54	mircea_popescu	the bit discussing the cheating involved in the asm translation of search in c was added to the log about a year ago
22:54	mircea_popescu	recall it ?
22:54	asciilifeform	nope
22:55	asciilifeform	was this the old-unixen thread ?
22:55	mircea_popescu	well now ima gonna have to search won't i ;/
22:56	mircea_popescu	the idea was that it sacrificed outlier cases to get a better performance curve geared towards more common cases
22:57	mircea_popescu	by jumping the index, smashing stacks and doing all sorts of shenanigans.
22:57	phf	asciilifeform: i think numerics is a truly dodgy tradeoff. it took me until quite recently to grok that "character code == ascii" or "character code == unicode codepoint" are not the only two possible interpretations.
22:58	asciilifeform	phf: and yet one still finds people arithmetizing on characters, thinking that they are doing nothing wrong, then wondering why unicode is retarded and anything involving it is a crock of shit where so much as a fart runs in O(N) at best
22:58	*	mircea_popescu gives up in frustration. if anyone recalls the damned thing say.
		↖
22:59	mircea_popescu	"As an example, table 13-1 shows the character labels, graphic symbols, and character descriptions for all of the characters in the repertoire standard-char except for #\Space and #\Newline."
22:59	mircea_popescu	what is # ?
22:59	phf	a reader dispatch character
22:59	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: pound-quote
23:00	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10100 @ 0.00050125 = 5.0626 BTC [-] {2}
23:00	mircea_popescu	mno. if we read the very table referenced, we find
23:00	mircea_popescu	SM01 # number sign
23:00	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: it is an in-band magic sequence denoting a named character
23:00	mircea_popescu	so apparently characters are introduced by ... an escape sequence (lol)... which happens to be... NUMBER SIGN ?
23:00	mircea_popescu	is this deliberately self-mocking humour ?
23:00	asciilifeform	it's what grew on the keyboard.
23:01	mircea_popescu	this doesn't make you lol ?
23:01	asciilifeform	could've just as easily been a ^
23:01	mircea_popescu	but it isn't.
23:01	mircea_popescu	so characters ARE numbers, aite ?
23:02	asciilifeform	only in the sense everything else on the machine is.
23:02	asciilifeform	BUT they are not a ring.
23:02	mircea_popescu	no, in the sense that they are specifically labelled thus with a label specifically made to label numbers.
23:02	asciilifeform	mno.
23:02	asciilifeform	they are not a ring.
23:02	asciilifeform	and they are not ordered.
23:02	mircea_popescu	right, "|they could have also called it penis sign"
23:03	mircea_popescu	they aren't ordered ? so "a" > "b" returns undefined ?
23:03	asciilifeform	returns whatever satan prepared for this sinful occasion, yes.
23:03	mircea_popescu	but this is blatantly not how the alphabet goes.
23:03	mircea_popescu	a comes before b.
23:03	phf	mircea_popescu: file:///Users/pf/Desktop/documentation/HyperSpec-7-0/HyperSpec/Body/13_af.htm
23:03	phf	err
23:03	mircea_popescu	lol ty .
23:04	asciilifeform	* (> #\b #\a)
23:04	asciilifeform	debugger invoked on a TYPE-ERROR in thread
23:04	asciilifeform	#<THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {1002A18C03}>:
23:04	asciilifeform	The value #\b is not of type NUMBER.
23:04	phf	hehe, where do people normally get this shit from???
23:04	asciilifeform	^ sbcl 1.1.6
23:04	asciilifeform	phf: l0l!! everybody has this problem, aha
23:04	phf	mircea_popescu: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/13_af.htm
23:04	assbot	CLHS: Section 13.1.6 ... ( http://bit.ly/1SL6EGi )
23:04	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform so is there a special function to inquire which of two comes before in the alphabet ?
23:04	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: there is NOT a 'the alphabet' in the cl standard !
23:05	mircea_popescu	"Of the standard characters, those which are alphanumeric obey the following partial ordering:"
23:05	mircea_popescu	this shit's so retarded...
23:05	mircea_popescu	partial ordering ? rly ?
23:05	asciilifeform	the committee could not and did not, afaik, remotely contemplate attempting to invent unicode or similar.
23:06	mircea_popescu	so if i sort a file containing a bunch of words, i do not know if i should look for ___stuff at the end or beginning or scattered anywhere.
23:06	mircea_popescu	who comes up with this shit ?
23:06	asciilifeform	and it is ~wrong~ to IMPLICITLY arithmetize on non-arithmetic objects.
23:06	asciilifeform	asking what 'A' + 'B' is equal to,
23:06	asciilifeform	is talking-to-the-stove.
23:06	asciilifeform	while drinking benzene by the litre.
23:06	mircea_popescu	nevertheless, sorting lists of words is the most basic, primary, entrly level task for any scribe.
23:07	mircea_popescu	and i should not be surprised, lest the scribe gets her ass colored.
23:07	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: you can trivially define a partial ordering when sorting
23:07	mircea_popescu	i can also trivially define the new location of washington dc.
23:07	asciilifeform	but have to ~explicitly~ do it
23:07	asciilifeform	hey it could mov
23:07	asciilifeform	e
23:07	asciilifeform	like ulab batur !!11
23:07	asciilifeform	*ulan
23:07	mircea_popescu	the fucking point of having an alphabet is that no, it couldn't move.
23:07	asciilifeform	kept movin' till, when, 20th c?
23:08	asciilifeform	ru alphabet moved plenty
23:08	mircea_popescu	and no, i won't be looking for the beatles records past the why records.
23:08	mircea_popescu	yes but ru are idiots.
23:08	phf	mircea_popescu: wait, partial ordering in this case means that alphabet is ordered. it's meaningless things like "is _ greater then a" that are not defined
23:08	asciilifeform	and the latin christendom, clever ?
23:08	mircea_popescu	phf and if idiots make functions going ___function where in the ordered list do i look for them ?
23:08	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform that's besides the point :D
23:11	asciilifeform	incidentally, was anybody else cruelly shocked as a kid when discovering that the 8th-bit upper 'ansi' character of msdos is NOT standardized ?
23:11	asciilifeform	and failing to find it on one's first unix box.
23:11	BingoBoingo	<asciilifeform> and it is ~wrong~ to IMPLICITLY arithmetize on non-arithmetic objects. << What would Terry Davis say about this?
23:12	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: why not ask him ?
23:12	asciilifeform	iirc he's findable
23:12	BingoBoingo	Not full of benzene
23:12	BingoBoingo	findable yes, predictable output???
23:12	phf	mircea_popescu: there are parts of standard that are underspecified :)
23:13	mircea_popescu	im unimpressed.
23:14	asciilifeform	picture if satan lifted his magic wand, and, somehow, mpex and glbse (!) and havel0l, et al, had to ALL sit down and STANDARDIZE the stock exchange ...
23:14	phf	the only redeeming quality in this case, that there aren't better standards available, except for maybe Ada (i've not looked). you end up with trade offs, or hard constraints that make the result non-portable. a positive aspect of cl standard is that you get reasonably similar behavior on very wide range of hardware, but i agree that things could always be better
23:15	asciilifeform	in a way that doesn't leave the crud exchanges simply going to a pit to die
23:15	asciilifeform	because oh noez, they get voicez!11111
23:15	asciilifeform	representation!
23:15	asciilifeform	this is sorta what happened. symbolics co. had to 'compromise' with the turd vendors
23:15	asciilifeform	whose lisps didn't even run on a real graphical console
23:16	asciilifeform	(the entire process took place at all, as i gather, because foolishly smbx thought it could finesse the process)
23:16	mircea_popescu	and why did they ?\
23:16	mircea_popescu	nothing wrong with "fuck you, you're childrten, go away. this is the spec."
23:17	mircea_popescu	it's after all what mpex did. the children did go away.
23:17	mircea_popescu	the "concerned parents" wanna-bes with them.
23:17	asciilifeform	because this was not quite it.
23:17	asciilifeform	there were multiple licensees of the original mit machine
23:17	mircea_popescu	anyway. i have no intention to bake in historical idiocy, and especially not of this ilk.
23:17	mircea_popescu	i have had enough seawater in the shape of bitcoin genesis
23:18	asciilifeform	(early on, it was not clear that smbx would annihilate the rest)
23:18	asciilifeform	much less that it would shortly after, die.
23:18	mircea_popescu	depending on who you asked, it was "not clear" that mpex will bury mtgox, let alone bitcoinica.
23:18	asciilifeform	was it mircea_popescu who had the article with the giant and his chair ?
23:18	mircea_popescu	now that...
23:18	mircea_popescu	among many others, im sure.
23:19	mircea_popescu	anyway. i have nothing against lisp, neither historically nor intellectually. but this is an unsatisfactory notion of an alphabet.
23:19	mircea_popescu	while the idea that "letters aren't numbers, sit down" is sound,
23:19	mircea_popescu	there's as the romanians say, "mai e mult pina departe". there's a lot to go to far away.
23:20	asciilifeform	so is A > α ?
23:20	asciilifeform	or not ?
23:20	asciilifeform	or do i not get an α ?
23:20	mircea_popescu	pick one.
23:20	mircea_popescu	also, do you get two A's ?
23:20	mircea_popescu	because capital alpha is A.
23:20	asciilifeform	and how about ∀ ?
23:21	mircea_popescu	you actually aim to use a dword for the alphabet encoding ?
23:21	mircea_popescu	how's it gonna fit in your head ?
23:21	asciilifeform	this is not implicit in the question, is it
23:21	mircea_popescu	suppose you limit yourself to a hundred or so of these.
23:21	mircea_popescu	that way i can look at a piece of paper with them
23:21	asciilifeform	see mircea_popescu you are arithmetizing in your head
23:21	asciilifeform	from decades of habit
23:22	mircea_popescu	mno, i am merely in the habit of having a mendelev table on my fucking wall.
23:22	mircea_popescu	nature makes do with a hundred or so. you're better ?
23:22	asciilifeform	what if i said that α ought to live as an s-expr equalling (low (greek 0)) ?
23:22	mircea_popescu	is that tetha ?
23:22	asciilifeform	zero
23:22	mircea_popescu	uh
23:22	asciilifeform	(this is not a notation on any existing system, i invented it)
23:23	mircea_popescu	so you're going to just have indexes ?
23:23	asciilifeform	it has useful semantic structure
23:23	mircea_popescu	isn't this contrary to everything you been saying to date ?
23:23	asciilifeform	and is operable
23:23	asciilifeform	e.g., i can turn it into an aleph
23:23	asciilifeform	or an upper-case
23:23	mircea_popescu	why specifically "low".
23:23	asciilifeform	indices make sense ~where defined~
23:23	mircea_popescu	why not (cool(aromatic(1))
23:23	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: because buncha medieval bozos decided they like small/big letter
23:24	asciilifeform	because these are not meaningfully-toggleable properties of a character ?
23:24	asciilifeform	break the thing into its proper subatomics.
23:24	mircea_popescu	so do we have the complete set of "meaningfully-toggleable properties" of characters set in stone ?
23:24	asciilifeform	at least for the chars a cultured man might use
23:24	mircea_popescu	is greek low 0 equal to low greek 0 ?
23:25	phf	welcome to unicode land
23:25	asciilifeform	either true or an error and the machine kicks you for asking
23:25	asciilifeform	pick.
23:25	mircea_popescu	phf which is why i said, it's contrary to everything he was saying.
23:25	asciilifeform	i don't see how.
23:25	asciilifeform	unicode is an idiot ordering of EVERYTHING
23:25	mircea_popescu	what's the uppercase of integral sign ?
23:26	asciilifeform	itself.
23:26	asciilifeform	thing about it
23:26	mircea_popescu	what's the lowercase of the sum sign ?
23:26	asciilifeform	(if you ask for uppercase(.......) for any .... that includes such a sign, what do you expect to see ?
23:26	asciilifeform	)
23:26	asciilifeform	same.
23:26	asciilifeform	this is, again, consistent with sanity
23:26	mircea_popescu	what happened to σ ?
23:26	mircea_popescu	and for that matter ς ?
23:27	asciilifeform	and you would set fire to a machine that behaved otherwise!
23:27	mircea_popescu	(yes, greek sigma has two lowercases!)
		↖
23:27	asciilifeform	they oughta be separate chars in alphabet then
23:27	asciilifeform	if one must have'em both.
23:27	mircea_popescu	but what of low ?
23:27	mircea_popescu	low 1 0 ?
23:28	mircea_popescu	well... tenser, said the tensor σ!
23:28	asciilifeform	l0l!!1
23:28	mod6	hah
23:28	mircea_popescu	also, iirc ς is worth 200 in greek
23:29	*	asciilifeform wonders if there are folks reading this on ascii terminals going 'wut'
23:29	mircea_popescu	so logically, the tensor is the lowercase of the sum, and it's equal to two Cs
23:29	mircea_popescu	i think we're close to a math breakthrough here.
23:29	asciilifeform	now all we need is some meta-lsd to inject straight into my eyeball
23:29	asciilifeform	so i can grasp.
23:30	mircea_popescu	do you get a Σ to be the sum and a self-same Σ to be the uppercase sigma ?
		↖
23:30	asciilifeform	connection from 186.137.7.31:48104 dropped (banned) << that banlist thing needs massage: why can same bugger come back 4x within the hour??!!
23:30	asciilifeform	on both boxes, no less
23:31	mircea_popescu	well do you actuallty ban or just bitcoind
23:31	asciilifeform	the latter
23:31	mircea_popescu	oh, how endearing.
23:31	asciilifeform	ah iirc this is 'attempted connect'
23:31	mircea_popescu	you think this shit works ? what are you, new ?!
23:31	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: what do you have in yours, a shell callout to iptables ?!1
23:31	asciilifeform	ick
23:31	mircea_popescu	pretty much.
23:32	asciilifeform	and we barfed over nss!11
23:32	mircea_popescu	what can i tell you.
23:32	trinque	gun to fire today, gun to fire tomorrow.
23:33	asciilifeform	i've always wanted a '/dev/banhammer'
23:33	asciilifeform	echo p.q.r.s > /dev/fuckyou
23:34	asciilifeform	what happened to yoooooooneeex filoooosophy!111
23:34	asciilifeform	simplicity.
23:34	mircea_popescu	this is not a bad idea
23:34	mircea_popescu	/dev/ded
23:34	asciilifeform	/dev/sad.
23:34	phf	there's probably /dev/ban on plan9
23:34	trinque	socat is capable of such an abomination pretty easily
23:34	asciilifeform	phf: quite likely!
23:37	asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-01-2016#1367736 << btw lisp world actually is equipped to answer this in a non-retarded way:
23:37	assbot	Logged on 12-01-2016 04:30:11; mircea_popescu: do you get a Σ to be the sum and a self-same Σ to be the uppercase sigma ?
23:37	asciilifeform	they are 'eq' but not 'equal'.
23:37	mircea_popescu	i don't see why you think this answer is not retarded.
23:37	asciilifeform	because these are useful notions?
23:37	asciilifeform	that i use every motherfuckin day?
23:38	mircea_popescu	Tubro, the fat Panamanian God of Money is a useful notion
23:38	asciilifeform	on my desk, two sheets of paper inscribed with the word 'alas' -
23:38	asciilifeform	are eq
23:38	asciilifeform	but not equal
23:38	mircea_popescu	should it be in the lisp "repertoire" too ?
23:38	asciilifeform	because they are not the SAME sheet
23:39	asciilifeform	you see no difference between this and a random piece of excreta ?
23:39	mircea_popescu	there is no actual meaning to proposing Σ-which-i-interpreted-as-sum and Σ-which-i-interpreted-as-plotin are somehow different in the "eq" manner but similar in the "equal" manner.
23:39	mircea_popescu	because the computer is not in your fucking head.
23:40	asciilifeform	if all you get is a Σ on paper - then, no
23:40	mircea_popescu	a sign is a sign.
23:40	asciilifeform	but mapping is not 1 to 1.
23:40	mircea_popescu	it carries no meaning.
23:40	mircea_popescu	attempting to make the sign carry your guts is not going to result in a functioning computer.
23:40	asciilifeform	which is why we don't
23:41	mircea_popescu	apparently we just think we don't.
23:41	asciilifeform	as in the mircea_popescu> because capital alpha is A. example,
23:41	asciilifeform	two different objects can render to same glyph
23:42	phf	mircea_popescu: this a hypothetical mechanism you guys are discussing. this is not actually in lisp
23:42	asciilifeform	because life suxx etc
23:42	mircea_popescu	phf i know.
23:42	mircea_popescu	but i think it's very instructive because i suspect we're uncovering a psychotron here.
23:42	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform not a matter of "glyph". A actually is both.
23:43	mircea_popescu	it'[s not that "my girlfriendf" and "his wife" all "look like the same woman"
23:43	mircea_popescu	you're fucking the same woman.
23:43	asciilifeform	http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/f_eq.htm#eq vs http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/f_equal.htm#equal vs http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/f_eql.htm vs http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/f_bt_and.htm#bit-eqv vs http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/f_eq_sle.htm#EQ
23:43	assbot	CLHS: Function EQ ... ( http://bit.ly/1OnJDnx )
23:43	assbot	CLHS: Function EQUAL ... ( http://bit.ly/1OnJDnF )
23:43	assbot	CLHS: Function EQL ... ( http://bit.ly/1OnJDUC )
23:43	assbot	CLHS: Function BIT-AND, BIT-ANDC1, BIT-ANDC2... ... ( http://bit.ly/1OnJDnJ )
23:43	assbot	CLHS: Function =, /=, <, >, <=, >= ... ( http://bit.ly/1OnJDUE )
23:43	phf	i think if my lisp rendered same character but claimed that they are not char=, i would be very unhappy
23:44	asciilifeform	is quite certainly in lisp.
23:44	asciilifeform	phf: apparently you don't greek enough...
23:44	mircea_popescu	phf well if you have this tag-and-glyph duality you're wide fucking open to the issue.
23:46	phf	you can't make any statements about chars using eq. eq is a special beast used to test ~von neumann~ identity. and all the comments in the spec are related to that. sometimes (eq 1 1) but (eq 123123 123123) is not
23:46	phf	it's a totally technical low level detail for explicitly managing your memory, and speeding up operations
23:46	phf	you can expect eq to compile to some asm level equality procedure
23:47	mircea_popescu	or in a less charitable view, it's a half assed attempt to hand-gcc.
23:47	phf	bringing this into char discussion makes no sense whatsoever because spec explicitly says you can't
23:47	phf	mircea_popescu: correct
23:47	asciilifeform	phf: my point was to illustrate the notion of meaningfully different concepts of equality-predicate
23:48	mircea_popescu	it didn't work.
23:48	asciilifeform	only a subset of which sanely applicable to characters
23:50	asciilifeform	fact is, a system which tries to pretend that it makes sense to ask what A + ∀ is equal to, or even whether A > ∀, makes no more sense than one which tries to define the mass of the colour purple.
23:51	asciilifeform	one which lets you programmatically specify an operation which yields A when given an ∀, is marginally saner
23:52	asciilifeform	but in point of fact this actually reduces to the naming problem !
23:52	asciilifeform	from this morning !
23:53	asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=11-01-2016#1366258 << thread
23:53	assbot	Logged on 11-01-2016 13:49:26; mircea_popescu: naming is by its nature this : that there will be a group in power, allocating the names, and everyone else can go suck it.
23:53	asciilifeform	arguably 'how to draw an alpha' is a a name-problem question
23:53	asciilifeform	as is the answer to arbitrary crapolade, e.g., whether A > ∀.
23:54	asciilifeform	what would make sense is for folks plugged into a mircea_popescutron to get the requisite answer when they ask it
23:54	asciilifeform	see my ancient idiocy, http://kyristor.com
23:54	assbot	kyristor ... ( http://bit.ly/1OnKvZl )
23:55	*	asciilifeform to bed.
23:56	mircea_popescu	at the rate this discussion is going, the alt-"lisp" will need a pun function which tells you if the string was used in pun.
23:56	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6950 @ 0.00050643 = 3.5197 BTC [+]
23:59	mircea_popescu	but as far the machine is concerned, there is no difference between sum-sigma and letter-sigma. nor any meaning to any symbol. and so the whole "oh we gotta have universal quantifier as a symbol" is to my eyes an exercise of naming the function "understanding" so as to get ai.
23:59	mircea_popescu	the computer ain't working any better because it "knows" supposedly that ∀. and neither is anything else.
23:59	mircea_popescu	you can say "for any x" just as well as you can say " ∀ x".

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