#trilema | 2015-04-25

pest - 11h 17m
trilema - 1029d

Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2015-04-24 | 2015-04-26 → ↓

00:02	danielpbarron	i compiled it using the patches that ended up becoming 0.5.3.1
00:03	danielpbarron	and this is on a pogo
00:05	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66489 @ 0.00031199 = 20.7439 BTC [+] {3}
00:13	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22750 @ 0.0003104 = 7.0616 BTC [-]
00:24	scoopbot_revived	News! One good turn. URL: http://thewhet.net/2015/one-good-turn/
00:24	assbot	One good turn… \| The Whet ... ( http://bit.ly/1HBNmNL )
		~ 15 minutes ~
00:40	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32410 @ 0.00031014 = 10.0516 BTC [-] {2}
00:48	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 83450 @ 0.00030693 = 25.6133 BTC [-] {3}
00:59	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76644 @ 0.00030006 = 22.9978 BTC [-] {2}
01:07	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22095 @ 0.00029823 = 6.5894 BTC [-]
01:08	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32711 @ 0.00029724 = 9.723 BTC [-]
		~ 50 minutes ~
01:59	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17300 @ 0.00030826 = 5.3329 BTC [+]
		~ 16 minutes ~
02:15	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 89350 @ 0.0002942 = 26.2868 BTC [-] {2}
02:24	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93100 @ 0.00030161 = 28.0799 BTC [+]
02:26	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22418 @ 0.00029528 = 6.6196 BTC [-] {2}
02:27	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37012 @ 0.00029171 = 10.7968 BTC [-]
		~ 21 minutes ~
02:48	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47800 @ 0.00029122 = 13.9203 BTC [-] {3}
		~ 44 minutes ~
03:33	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 75100 @ 0.00030939 = 23.2352 BTC [+] {2}
		~ 25 minutes ~
03:58	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59300 @ 0.00031243 = 18.5271 BTC [+] {2}
		~ 17 minutes ~
04:15	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3900 @ 0.00031014 = 1.2095 BTC [-]
04:18	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70500 @ 0.00031269 = 22.0446 BTC [+]
		~ 49 minutes ~
05:08	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6050 @ 0.00031269 = 1.8918 BTC [+]
		~ 15 minutes ~
05:24	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 81750 @ 0.00030112 = 24.6166 BTC [-] {2}
05:30	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36555 @ 0.00030071 = 10.9925 BTC [-]
05:44	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16095 @ 0.00030071 = 4.8399 BTC [-]
		~ 45 minutes ~
06:30	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22250 @ 0.00029983 = 6.6712 BTC [-]
		~ 1 hours 50 minutes ~
08:20	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31642 @ 0.00030048 = 9.5078 BTC [+] {3}
		~ 24 minutes ~
08:45	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13100 @ 0.00031205 = 4.0879 BTC [+]
08:46	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 94310 @ 0.00031398 = 29.6115 BTC [+] {3}
08:54	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11200 @ 0.000315 = 3.528 BTC [+]
		~ 16 minutes ~
09:10	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8383 @ 0.000315 = 2.6406 BTC [+]
09:10	scoopbot_revived	News! MP's very brief foray into a poetry forum URL: http://trilema.com/2015/mps-very-brief-foray-into-a-poetry-forum/
09:10	assbot	MP's very brief foray into a poetry forum on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1bDRP6T )
09:11	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8617 @ 0.00031503 = 2.7146 BTC [+]
09:23	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39450 @ 0.00030066 = 11.861 BTC [-] {2}
09:34	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23550 @ 0.00031528 = 7.4248 BTC [+] {2}
09:36	williamdunne	danielpbarron: Correct, it was
09:37	williamdunne	;;later tell danielpbarron yes, it was
09:37	gribble	The operation succeeded.
09:38	danielpbarron	what happened there? lost your key?
09:40	williamdunne	danielpbarron: Still have the key, just changed my name format
09:40	williamdunne	Its on a computer that hasn't touched the internet in a while so not worth the effort of moving it
09:45	williamdunne	Trying to use some custom Map library that claims to be the Fastest, Greatest, Most flexible. It reduced by speed by 16 times.
09:46	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21700 @ 0.00029904 = 6.4892 BTC [-]
09:48	danielpbarron	what came of your XCP thing?
09:49	williamdunne	danielpbarron: Got some private investment on it, did a soft-launch, found what I did wrong, and now working on a complete overhaul which should be pretty awesome
09:49	williamdunne	So "in progress"
09:49	danielpbarron	you're actually still going to use it for something serious?
09:50	danielpbarron	my asset, MEAT, is up in value from this time last year :D
09:50	williamdunne	Oh, not XCP
09:50	williamdunne	Just the company
09:51	danielpbarron	oo, you going to get listed on MPEx?
09:51	williamdunne	Can't imagine that I have enough rep to do that yet, but its something I would be open to in the future
09:52	williamdunne	I would like to be used by MPEX for options settlement too - I believe we could offer the reliability that was missing when MP last offered them
09:54	Naphex	williamdunne - Map library for what?
09:55	williamdunne	Naphex: Matching engine, using one thats meant to write to disk and have an audit trail (as well as being stupidly high performance) but so far its treating me like shit
09:55	williamdunne	Chronicle-Map
09:56	*	asciilifeform looks up 'chronicle-map', reaches for barf bag marked 'java'
09:56	asciilifeform	!up yang
09:59	Naphex	williamdunne: seems like a lot of needless complexity, just use a map with random access(if you need it) and the new stream api's. should be enough performance increase. pre-alloc the memory for the map first if arraycopy is bringing the performance down.
09:59	williamdunne	asciilifeform: You'd probably be more disgusted if you knew all of the langs I enjoy using
10:00	Naphex	asciilifeform just has some spaz when he hears java. same thing when i hear about lisp
10:00	asciilifeform	williamdunne: when you eat a mighty fine dinner at your favourite restaurant, you still know that the chef often takes a shit. but it matters that he does it in the shitter and not in the kitchen
10:00	Naphex	luckaly the lisp chef will have his shit serverd and all wrapped in paranthesis :)
		↖
10:01	asciilifeform	as if it were a contest between languages
10:01	Naphex	luckily*
10:01	williamdunne	Oh shit, scoop died
10:01	williamdunne	One minute
10:02	williamdunne	There we are, revived
10:02	asciilifeform	the java stack per se - entirely ignoring the language (which is an instrument of torture) is a pernicious enough thing that i do not allow it on any metal under my control which matters
		↖
10:02	asciilifeform	in fact, specifically only on boxes kept for running malware.
10:02	asciilifeform	make of this, what you will.
10:03	Naphex	asciilifeform: how so?
10:03	Naphex	what makes it so pernicious?
10:03	asciilifeform	Naphex: there is no programming language called 'lisp', and there hasn't been since 1964 or so
10:04	asciilifeform	educated fella oughta know that.
10:04	williamdunne	Theres a couple of different versions, no?
10:05	williamdunne	Naphex: Its not lisp
10:05	Naphex	Clisp
10:07	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41219 @ 0.00029869 = 12.3117 BTC [-] {2}
10:07	Naphex	is that better ?:)
10:09	williamdunne	Brackets everywhere
10:09	williamdunne	Looks pretty good though
10:11	Naphex	anyway, what else is cooking
10:11	Naphex	13:59 <+Naphex> williamdunne: seems like a lot of needless complexity, just use a map with random access(if you need it) and the new stream api's. should be enough performance increase. pre-alloc the memory for the map first if arraycopy is bringing the performance down.
10:11	Naphex	williamdunne: https://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/api/java/util/stream/package-summary.html
10:11	assbot	java.util.stream (Java Platform SE 8 ) ... ( http://bit.ly/1HD54QT )
10:13	williamdunne	Naphex: I'll have a dig. I'm currently trying to find an efficient way to send messages between some order parsers and the matching engine itself
10:13	williamdunne	Currently on 166k orders per second
10:15	Naphex	williamdunne: do you do your own locking or use the locking from that Map library?
10:15	Naphex	cause you could easily beat that
10:15	williamdunne	I was just starting to experiment with it tbh, I literally just took out my treemap and put in the chronicle map
10:16	Naphex	williamdunne: what you should be doing is just using a regular map, and doing binary insert into it
10:17	williamdunne	I'll have a look at doing that
10:23	Naphex	williamdunne: https://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/api/java/util/Collections.html#binarySearch-java.util.List-T-java.util.Comparator- will make it pretty easy.
10:23	assbot	Collections (Java Platform SE 8 ) ... ( http://bit.ly/1HD7pLN )
10:25	williamdunne	223,000/second
10:26	williamdunne	Until GC kicks in
10:26	Naphex	don't trash the mem :P
10:26	williamdunne	Doesn't particularly help that I have only 100mb of free mem currently
10:29	williamdunne	Wait, surely TreeMap is the most ideal as it guarantees that the orders are actually.. in order?
10:29	Naphex	williamdunne: you do that with a map and binary insert with a Price-Time Priority comparator
10:30	williamdunne	Derp. Well now I have to work out that one. I only started looking at Java 3-4 days ago -.-
10:31	Naphex	as long as you don't have duplicated data ( and you shouldn't)
10:31	Naphex	the map will always be sorted
10:33	williamdunne	Yeah, although don't have to deal with price-time in this case
10:33	williamdunne	Just price
10:34	williamdunne	http://cointelegraph.com/news/114071/white-male-crypto-peddler-is-fed-up-with-white-male-crypto-peddlers Urmmmmmm
10:34	assbot	White Male Crypto-Peddler is Fed Up with White Male Crypto-Peddlers (Op-Ed) ... ( http://bit.ly/1HD9DdY )
10:34	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52000 @ 0.00031671 = 16.4689 BTC [+]
10:36	Naphex	williamdunne: well, you can't have dup data so you need a unique field. Price will have duplicated data :P
10:36	Naphex	atleast get a unique id or something and use that instead of time:p
10:37	williamdunne	Naphex: Would another solution not be to just append it to duplicate data? i.e if I have another order come in at $150 just add it to the quantity
10:37	williamdunne	And then the order handlers work out what belongs to who
10:49	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44711 @ 0.00029778 = 13.314 BTC [-]
10:55	Naphex	williamdunne: how will the order handlers do that?
10:55	Naphex	williamdunne: how do you define an order?
10:55	Naphex	you can group orders by price sure, but thats just for 'display'
10:55	williamdunne	Naphex: Assuming the order handlers are aware of the orders that should be in the book they can work out who placed what when and who is owed what
10:56	williamdunne	Leave the core to just push numbers around
10:56	Naphex	williamdunne: sounds reduntant
10:56	Naphex	an order should have a timestamp, side, quantity, and price if it has a limit
10:57	williamdunne	Naphex: Currently they just have side quantity and price
10:57	williamdunne	With the price being used as the key
11:04	Naphex	williamdunne: how will the order handler know who to serve and which order to execute?
11:05	williamdunne	The way I was planning it was that the core is just a simple limit/market job, and then the handlers do all of the things like checking balances before passing anything to the book itself
11:08	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20789 @ 0.00029429 = 6.118 BTC [-]
11:13	BingoBoingo	http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/15/04/25/112224/tesla-to-announce-battery-based-energy-storage-for-homes << lol "three-feet high by 2.5-feet wide, and need to be installed at least a foot and a half off the ground"
11:13	assbot	Tesla To Announce Battery-Based Energy Storage For Homes - Slashdot ... ( http://bit.ly/1Gunjtg )
11:14	williamdunne	Seems like it could be good if you're already stuck with some solar panels
11:17	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26779 @ 0.00030133 = 8.0693 BTC [+] {2}
11:19	BingoBoingo	Lithium Ion is horribru for this purpose
11:19	BingoBoingo	NiFe FTW
11:24	danielpbarron	They can be controlled with a Web app and a smartphone app. << what could go wrong?
		~ 30 minutes ~
11:54	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48911 @ 0.00029449 = 14.4038 BTC [-] {2}
		~ 51 minutes ~
12:46	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58995 @ 0.00031033 = 18.3079 BTC [+] {2}
		~ 1 hours 3 minutes ~
13:50	ben_vulpes	williamdunne: http://martinfowler.com/articles/lmax.html
13:50	assbot	The LMAX Architecture ... ( http://bit.ly/1GuQw7a )
13:50	mircea_popescu	how goes the cool aid ?
13:50	ben_vulpes	also, does http://www.cascadianhacker.com/index.xml work for the new scoopbot?
13:52	williamdunne	Yeah the LMAX architecture is awesome. Matt introduced me to Java through it
13:52	williamdunne	Gave me a new respect for computer science
13:52	williamdunne	I'll check it for you
13:52	williamdunne	Server not found
13:52	williamdunne	Firefox can't find the server at www.cascadianhacker.com.
13:53	ben_vulpes	looool wtf
13:53	ben_vulpes	oh yeah, without the dubbas
13:53	williamdunne	Your www doesn't point anywhere
13:53	ben_vulpes	this was a conscious decision at one point
13:53	ben_vulpes	hand curated internets
13:53	williamdunne	index.xml should work
13:53	ben_vulpes	it's like a cabinet
13:53	williamdunne	Yeah, I do similar on my sites but I 303 www to no wwww
13:54	williamdunne	*302
13:54	mircea_popescu	http://www.trilema.com/
13:54	assbot	Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1PB45DG )
13:54	mircea_popescu	myeah. 302 ftw.
13:55	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21200 @ 0.00029823 = 6.3225 BTC [-]
13:56	williamdunne	ben_vulpes: Your xml doesn't agree with scoop
13:56	williamdunne	I'll have a dig into why
13:57	williamdunne	ben_vulpes: Okay
13:57	mircea_popescu	http://archlinuxarm.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=4271 << other people playing with their pogos.
13:57	assbot	Arch Linux ARM • View topic - Need help setting up audio ... ( http://bit.ly/1PB4w0J )
13:57	williamdunne	Needs to be rapped into a <channel>
13:57	williamdunne	*wrapped
13:57	williamdunne	<rss>
13:57	williamdunne	<channel>
13:57	williamdunne	<item>
13:59	williamdunne	mircea_popescu: So what are these Pogos? I had a look for them but I found some cloud backup company who didn't even advertise a pogo plug as far as I could see
14:00	mircea_popescu	exactly.
14:00	mircea_popescu	!s pogo
14:00	assbot	388 results for 'pogo' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=pogo
14:00	mircea_popescu	see the earliest references
14:03	ben_vulpes	williamdunne: try as atom
14:03	ben_vulpes	http://validator.w3.org/feed/check.cgi?url=cascadianhacker.com%2Findex.xml
14:03	assbot	Feed Validator Results: http://cascadianhacker.com/index.xml ... ( http://bit.ly/1PB5A4G )
14:04	williamdunne	Current code doesn't support Atom but I can modify it.
14:04	ben_vulpes	thanks :)
14:05	mircea_popescu	speaking of varnish, i actually got some numbers.
		↖
14:05	mircea_popescu	YearUniques VisitsPagesHitsBandwidth
14:05	mircea_popescu	20144,090,07393,73,82620,807,06857,005,4141.90 TB
14:05	mircea_popescu	20152,190,29753,48,43010,599,15213,781,404599.82 GB
14:07	williamdunne	ben_vulpes: Care to publish a test article?
14:07	ben_vulpes	i'm actually writing one now
14:12	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 77900 @ 0.0002904 = 22.6222 BTC [-] {3}
14:15	mircea_popescu	blergh lost conn.
14:16	mircea_popescu	so re http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110296 << the difference in numbers is due to the fact varnish ran on teh system since nov 2014. totally murdered hits and bw.
14:16	assbot	Logged on 25-04-2015 18:05:45; mircea_popescu: speaking of varnish, i actually got some numbers.
14:16	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110181 << haha
14:16	assbot	Logged on 25-04-2015 14:00:57; Naphex: luckaly the lisp chef will have his shit serverd and all wrapped in paranthesis :)
14:19	mircea_popescu	;;later tell pete_dushenski http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/stop-all-the-clocks.ogg (no pingbacks i take it ? )
14:19	assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1PB8DKc )
14:19	gribble	The operation succeeded.
14:21	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15850 @ 0.00029811 = 4.725 BTC [+] {2}
14:22	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110187 << you know how the literary criticism goes, "don't tell, show". you've not really shown.
		↖
14:22	assbot	Logged on 25-04-2015 14:02:19; asciilifeform: the java stack per se - entirely ignoring the language (which is an instrument of torture) is a pernicious enough thing that i do not allow it on any metal under my control which matters
14:27	mircea_popescu	cazalla dude the http://qntra.net/archives/ page kicks ass.
		↖ ↖
14:27	assbot	Archives \| Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1GuX0Dg )
14:27	williamdunne	ben_vulpes: Still working to get Atom support working, wasn't working with the small change
14:27	williamdunne	Having to refactor half the bloody code
14:28	mircea_popescu	"battery-based energy storage for residential and commercial customers. The batteries power up overnight when energy companies typically charge less for electricity, then are used during the day to power a home." << theres just no way this is cost effective.
14:28	mircea_popescu	the price differential won't likely even cover cost of insurance for that bomb, let alone its capital amortisation
14:29	mircea_popescu	not to even consider the fact that once this commodifies, the night discount goes away
		↖
14:35	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 91987 @ 0.00029069 = 26.7397 BTC [-] {3}
14:37	mod6	So, before I go off in another direction, I guess I should ask if anyone knows how to get a gentoo stage3 running on an AWS instance. Previously, when testing v0.5.3.1-RELEASE on an AWS instance I used a pre-build/configured AMI that are available; which leads me to believe why I probably got some slightly different results from others who had used a roll-your-own gentoo with stage3.
14:38	mod6	Is it at all possibru to set up the instance with a Gentoo AMI, and then use it as a shim to somehow re-load with a clean stage3?
14:38	Naphex	mod6: i roll my own gentoo's. what's the problem with amazon?
14:38	Naphex	mod6: why not just kill most of the stuff running on the AMI and do a chroot and set that up
14:38	Naphex	mod6: unpack a stage3 and chroot it. set it up
14:39	mod6	I'm probably just dumb. How can I setup an instance with a clean stage3. All I see that are available are AMI's. And I'm worried that they've got things/tools pre-installed that I don't want to have in there. This instance will be a build/testing server for R.I. development.
14:39	Naphex	mod6: i never used AWS. But i doubt you could switch the kernel. but the chroot should solve your issues
14:39	mod6	ok, so setup a chroot environment, and run everything in the chroot?
14:40	mircea_popescu	basically he's proposing you replace teh chroot
14:40	Naphex	aye
14:40	mod6	Thanks for the tip.
14:40	Naphex	get the latest stage, unpack it and chroot it
14:40	mircea_popescu	mod6 anyway, oince you get this working make sure to describe what you did IN GREAT DETAIL
14:40	Naphex	make sure you kill the other running stuff before
14:41	mod6	mircea_popescu: ok, will do.
14:41	trinque	deedbot's ec2 gentoo
14:41	mircea_popescu	trinque yeah, but theior pre-rolled thing ?
14:42	mod6	this is good news, because I still want to attach the 350gb drive that I used for chain storage (i've got at least 6+ fully syncd) to the instance.
14:42	Naphex	mod6: 1) kill already started services, especially any syslog running. 2) mount sysfs, procfs, and /dev (binded) 3) chroot it :P
14:42	mircea_popescu	mod6 Naphex prolly has a point in that if you actually switch out the kernel on an aws... well they basically lost it. how's their hypervisors etc to work
14:43	Naphex	mod6: if you need the other syslogs like wtmp,btmp,lastlog you'll probably have to hardlink them in log. But that should be it
14:44	mod6	ok thanks, good to know.
14:44	ben_vulpes	mircea_popescu: musk's got a good handle on the battery safety thing. d'you recall the trumpeting over how his cell design nukes cascading failures when the Boeing batteries caught on fire midair?
14:44	williamdunne	ben_vulpes: Okay, ScoopBot now supports Cascadian
14:44	ben_vulpes	thanks williamdunne!
14:44	mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes this is not how insurance works. insurance is an actuarial business
14:44	mircea_popescu	and he has no history.
14:44	williamdunne	ben_vulpes: v.welcome
14:44	trinque	http://www.blackswanent.com/gentoo/building-a-gentoo-ami
14:44	assbot	Building a Gentoo AMI \| BlackSwan ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBd4EJ )
14:45	trinque	^ should work
14:45	Naphex	trinque: does amazon load the kernel or just skips it?
14:45	ben_vulpes	mircea_popescu: he's also self-insuring his solar panels.
14:46	mircea_popescu	kinda has to yea
14:46	ben_vulpes	well, not just the panels but the roofes on which they're installed.
14:46	mircea_popescu	yup
14:46	ben_vulpes	and he's deeply bezzlefied, so he can probably convince tptb to let him self insure the bombs too!
14:46	ben_vulpes	rooves*
14:46	ben_vulpes	wat
14:46	ben_vulpes	roofs
14:46	mod6	thanks trinque
14:46	ben_vulpes	there we go.
14:46	trinque	Naphex: instructions there use your own kernel
14:46	mircea_popescu	the guy is taking massive levels of risk. one of teh few contemporary capitalists actually earning hteir keep.
14:47	ben_vulpes	indeed.
14:47	mircea_popescu	and diversified enough that the arabs can-t quite outright kill him. (tho they're trying). i tell you this is a fun thing toi watch, for me.
14:47	Naphex	trinque: i guess, as i see they use xen. imho letting xen guests define the kernel is a sure way of suffering when they manage to break out of the hypervisor :P
14:48	trinque	yeah ec2 is xen
14:48	mircea_popescu	Naphex i sometimes wonder how many boxes did amazon lose to date
14:48	mircea_popescu	and of thoise, how many they ever found out about.
14:48	trinque	mircea_popescu: it's a feature for their biggest customer
14:48	mircea_popescu	right.
14:49	Naphex	mircea_popescu: well if they do the breakout they'll surely rootkit the hypervisor kernel as well. so doubt they'll ever find out :P
14:49	Naphex	mircea_popescu: all there is left to do now is grep for secrets :P
14:49	mircea_popescu	lol
14:49	Naphex	why lose that capability. hide it and use it for fun
14:49	mircea_popescu	exactly.
14:50	mircea_popescu	williamdunne so in the light of a new day, does the bsdm social media thing actualy look worth doing to you ?
14:50	trinque	if nobody's done it in a couple years, I'd love to take on a hosting biz on other shores
14:50	williamdunne	mircea_popescu: Its definitely an interesting job, and if its a paying job I have the time. So yes
14:51	mircea_popescu	how much would it be paying and what do you intend to actually do ?
14:52	williamdunne	I guess that depends on how we wanted to do it and the full scope - could be a big or small job. What would be the end goal? Listing on MPEX and running it continuously or building the site and palming it off to someone else
14:52	mircea_popescu	there's no one else.
14:52	williamdunne	I can do everything, if we want it to be pretty I can organize an actual designer too
14:52	mircea_popescu	sadly, for all the derpage re "bitcoin finance bla bla"
14:52	mircea_popescu	everything's not a something tho.
14:53	williamdunne	Okay, so MPEX route or just as a small private product
14:53	ben_vulpes	man, there is no bitcoin finance.
14:53	mircea_popescu	it could be listed, sure.
14:53	ben_vulpes	(at least this year...)
14:54	williamdunne	mircea_popescu: I'll draw up a full spec and be sure that I can do it (in terms of time) and show that to you. Good starting point?
14:54	scoopbot_revived	News! Well welcomed, the warrior URL: http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2015/04/25_well-welcomed-the-warrior.html
14:54	assbot	Well welcomed, the warrior ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBeJKs )
14:55	mircea_popescu	works.
14:55	mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes shut up hater! there'sd even a bitcoin literature!
14:56	ben_vulpes	woo
14:56	ben_vulpes	lol
14:56	ben_vulpes	there's a bitcoin literature
14:56	ben_vulpes	there's a bitcoin stock
14:56	mircea_popescu	there's even a bitcoin girl.
14:56	williamdunne	there's bitcoin derivatives
14:56	ben_vulpes	williamdunne: any actual volume on 'em?
14:56	williamdunne	But.. but.. the blogger said there are no bitcoin girls
14:56	williamdunne	ben_vulpes: Define "actual"
14:56	trinque	ben_vulpes: can confirm my routine looks like "while (true) { if (awake) { type(); } else { dream_of_typing(); }}"
14:57	mircea_popescu	Bitcoin girl, you're outa sight, you need a bitcoin boy, to treat you right.
14:57	mircea_popescu	He'll do a little dance, take you home tonight. Leave his wallet alone, but you can kiss his node...
14:57	ben_vulpes	williamdunne: like a) how would we know if volume is what they say it is (who the fuck is operating them anyways), and b) is it oom comparable to mpoe?
14:58	williamdunne	Well if you believe the numbers, the volume is pretty huge. I believe it probably is still pretty big but wouldn't trust a bitcent on them (unlike MPOE of course)
14:58	ben_vulpes	trinque: burning too hot, buddhi
14:58	trinque	rocket or sepukku
14:58	ben_vulpes	williamdunne: well, link?
14:58	ben_vulpes	trinque: best rockets are self-cooling
14:59	ben_vulpes	williamdunne: moreover, if you'd not trust a bitcent on them, they're not really 'actual'. finance runs on trust. no trust, not finance.
14:59	williamdunne	https://www.bitmex.com/app
14:59	assbot	BitMEX - Bitcoin Mercantile Exchange ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBfun2 )
14:59	williamdunne	https://orderbook.net/trade
14:59	assbot	OrderBook.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBfun4 )
14:59	williamdunne	https://www.okcoin.com/future/market.do?symbol=0
14:59	assbot	行情图表 -OKCoin美元交易站 - 最专业的比特币美元交易平台 ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBfuDs )
15:00	williamdunne	ben_vulpes: Whom I choose to trust, and who others choose to trust are very different things, in fairness
15:01	trinque	ben_vulpes: "that which does not kill you"
15:01	trinque	but yeah, I don't expect to live this way forever
15:02	ben_vulpes	williamdunne: i'd ask if you've put any money down on 'em, but i think i already know the answer to that
15:02	williamdunne	Aha yeah, not touching them.
15:02	williamdunne	I trust a few of the spot markets though
15:02	ben_vulpes	cumSize << lol
15:02	williamdunne	Although I intend to dominate them
15:02	williamdunne	But who doesn't
15:04	ben_vulpes	bitmex is offering their own margin
15:04	ben_vulpes	neat
15:04	ben_vulpes	glhf
15:04	ben_vulpes	lol and there's a guy going by goat in the trollbox
15:04	*	ben_vulpes nopes out
15:06	williamdunne	Yeah, it'd be nice to see some service offered by people worth trusting
15:07	trinque	the market needs more bitcoin businesses worth a shit
15:09	williamdunne	Pretty much. What do you think of ItBit trying to become a bank? To me it looks like they failed to create an exchange people want to use and now they're trying to diversify
15:10	mircea_popescu	to me it looks like "dreams may be anything you wish"
15:12	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31452 @ 0.00029823 = 9.3799 BTC [+] {2}
15:15	williamdunne	They may have managed some VC fool to give them $60m so they can get their license
15:15	mircea_popescu	i think only outsiders actually have to pay for that.
15:16	scoopbot_revived	News! If I- URL: http://www.contravex.com/2015/04/25/if-i/
15:16	assbot	If I– \| Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBiwaX )
15:17	williamdunne	Thats supposedly the cost of running a bank pre-launch of your product
15:18	menahem	hey mircea, do you have an article in relation to your quotation "dreams may be anything you wish" ?
15:18	mircea_popescu	uh. well... there's that video... what was it
15:19	mircea_popescu	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSjLiQxEZlM
15:19	assbot	You can do Anything! - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBiVtS )
15:19	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26200 @ 0.0003044 = 7.9753 BTC [+] {2}
15:23	ben_vulpes	!rate jurov 3 several collaborations, never a hitch.
15:23	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/77bf0d276b798ec1
15:23	Pierre_Rochard	williamdunne: new york trust company not quite a bank, much lower cost
15:23	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.jurov.3:57329d33c4fc57e0aac47da8b31e04d3f729abd0f5af3606aad543713a3f1e76
15:23	assbot	Successfully updated the rating for jurov from 4 to 3 with note: several collaborations, never a hitch.
15:23	ben_vulpes	!r xmj 1 wordprexen, django, sysadminnery.
15:24	ben_vulpes	!rate xmj 1 wordprexen, django, sysadminnery.
15:24	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/023a2a2da1d996f1
15:24	Pierre_Rochard	it may allow them to avoid all the money transmitter nonsense
15:24	menahem	lol, glad I asked. always a deeper layer to what you say. ;)
15:25	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.xmj.1:933aeac159af0249f00d4834cb27124d38e3e15066da9934a8c85507fe45ba23
15:25	assbot	Successfully updated the rating for xmj from 3 to 1 with note: wordprexen, django, sysadminnery.
15:25	ben_vulpes	!rate mircea_popescu 4 throws a hell of a party.
15:25	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/3c4c49199f42a4a2
15:25	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.mircea_popescu.4:4430379a4deb2448d272a058f445c0cc787a4d884020bbd276a4591a3c93c58b
15:25	assbot	Successfully updated the rating for mircea_popescu from 3 to 4 with note: throws a hell of a party.
15:25	ben_vulpes
15:26	ben_vulpes	!rate ssataneth 2 trade.
15:26	assbot	ssataneth is not registered in WoT.
15:26	williamdunne	mircea_popescu: "i tried and therefore no-one can criticize me" 10/10.
15:26	williamdunne	I lold
15:26	williamdunne	Pierre_Rochard: Ah I take it back then
15:26	ben_vulpes	!rate ssateneth 2 trade.
15:26	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/8d3203273edc9c3e
15:26	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.ssateneth.2:b996c934d87c4faa5b123390f7514bc646e6960ff27eabce91f7b18292956cc9
15:26	assbot	Successfully updated the rating for ssateneth from 3 to 2 with note: trade.
15:26	ben_vulpes
15:27	ben_vulpes	!rate kakobrekla 4 steward of la serenissima.
15:27	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/ee2b6470a77a80a8
15:29	mircea_popescu	in any case the actual costs to running a bank aren't in getting the certificate. you gotta have the damned bank.
15:29	mircea_popescu	not as easy as it seems.
15:29	menahem	what would be some of the major challenges ?
15:29	williamdunne	menahem: Compliance x10
15:30	mircea_popescu	not even. you gotta have people who can actually bank.
15:30	mircea_popescu	you know, think in the more accessible terms of a hospital.
15:30	mircea_popescu	yes, you need to get some paperwork and permits
15:30	mircea_popescu	and yes you need to get lawyers that'll protect you from being sued.
15:31	mircea_popescu	well... it's not a hospital yet, is it ? at some point you actually need some people who can cure people.
15:31	mircea_popescu	look at the sad sad story of medici bank.
15:32	mircea_popescu	created in the 1400s, ran out of bankers in the 2000s, and swiftly out of history.
15:32	mircea_popescu	INVENTED the fucking double entry ledger, these people.
15:34	scoopbot_revived	News! The Fetlife Meatlist - Volume VI URL: http://trilema.com/2015/the-fetlife-meatlist-volume-vi/
15:34	assbot	The Fetlife Meatlist - Volume VI on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1z0Lvk0 )
15:35	williamdunne	How many volumes are there going to be?
15:36	williamdunne	mircea_popescu: Surely a lot of the costs can be massively reduced now? Wasn't exactly much automation in the 15th century
15:36	mircea_popescu	those aren't the costs.
15:36	mircea_popescu	the more you cut the clerical costs, the more the actual job of banking gets expensive.
15:36	mircea_popescu	and i'd expect about 40 or so.
15:37	mircea_popescu	turns out i kinda like ben_vulpes blog.
15:38	williamdunne	Have you already scraped the info or..?
15:38	mircea_popescu	nah, doing it as i go along
15:39	williamdunne	Oh dear lord
15:39	williamdunne	They haven't patched it yet?
15:39	mircea_popescu	exactly.
15:39	williamdunne	What the fuck
15:39	mircea_popescu	was funny too, the derps were like "HE DOESN:T HAS TEH SKILLSss!11!1"
15:39	mircea_popescu	yeah totally.
15:40	williamdunne	What skills? You literally told them how to do it..
15:40	mircea_popescu	dude, don't ask me.
15:40	mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2015/the-bitlove-llc-spin-on-their-recent-implosion-as-presented-to-their-captive-audience/ << there, actuallky discussed
15:40	assbot	The Bitlove LLC spin on their recent implosion, as presented to their captive audience. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBmy2M )
15:43	mircea_popescu	williamdunne but they have been dutifully banning their users (for saying anything but "this guy is horribru" and "what a violation!"). from what i hear the bancount's climbing well past 100 by now
15:43	mircea_popescu	surely this is going to do something.
15:44	williamdunne	Sent them an offer to fix it for 10 BTC
15:44	williamdunne	Lol
15:45	mircea_popescu	dude, that entire thing was made for 10 btc
15:45	williamdunne	I especially like the fact that their "solution" seems to be 422'ing anyone who is referred by trilema
15:46	mircea_popescu	yeah. works too, for the sort of muppets who pass along referrers
15:46	mircea_popescu	and never reload pages.
15:46	mircea_popescu	"is the hallmark of fiat psyops hell-bent on undermining their control of the monetary base. " << ben_vulpes come again ?
15:46	williamdunne	Max Keiser has started a new 'Crypto Fund' and somehow it has managed to $-2000 overnight
15:46	williamdunne	*raise $-2000 overnight
15:47	mircea_popescu	that muppet... i have no idea how he and his gf/announcer aren't in jail over the auroracoin scam
15:47	mircea_popescu	but i guess preet bharara is busy making his cell arrangements
15:48	williamdunne	Max Coin/Start Coin/Quark
15:48	mircea_popescu	myeah
15:48	williamdunne	I feel bad, because the person he's doing the 'fund' with is actually a decent guy. Been dragged in with his shit
15:48	mircea_popescu	tell the guy he is an imbecile.
15:48	williamdunne	1/3 of the fund will be trading altcoins.. lol
15:48	mircea_popescu	i don't feel bad for this sort of "decent guy".
15:49	mircea_popescu	he is the scum of the earth.
15:49	ben_vulpes	mircea_popescu: ty, i'll have words with the copyeditor
15:49	mircea_popescu	worse, much much worse than any deliberate scammer. the naive is the absolute shit of the world.
15:49	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.kakobrekla.4:29b873003beb1f212de3c8e9e6efbec2208c75c4ec5c5a5b558f4ad1d931a7b9
15:49	assbot	Invalid verfication string.
15:49	ben_vulpes
15:49	williamdunne	Thats a pretty broad category
15:49	ben_vulpes	!rate kakobrekla 4 steward of la srenissima.
15:49	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/743140e1c2a3b4c9
15:49	mircea_popescu	i don't blame the fire for the fire.
15:49	mircea_popescu	i blame the dry wood.
15:49	mircea_popescu	dry wood is to be cut off and taken away. far, far away. in chains.
15:50	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.kakobrekla.4:8d675ddc8f1c215a54e7a752b2e5bcb8ef714d53252b17926eaa7ca6c9de5a3b
15:50	assbot	Successfully updated the rating for kakobrekla from 3 to 4 with note: steward of la srenissima.
15:50	williamdunne	No room for intent?
15:50	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31544 @ 0.00030493 = 9.6187 BTC [+]
15:50	mircea_popescu	yes, plenty of room.
15:50	mircea_popescu	people who do wrong unintentionally are to be punished.
15:50	williamdunne	And those who do wrong intentionally?
15:50	ben_vulpes	! rate mike_c 3 kindred derper in fiat.
15:50	mircea_popescu	people who do it intentionally, after we're done with the clueless set.
15:50	ben_vulpes	!rate mike_c 3 kindred derper in fiat.
15:50	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/82c8676d5bdf3a83
15:51	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.mike_c.3:a39f5723975f6239012276bce139acd24cdf5da37e75deba10545b1003c7face
15:51	assbot	Successfully updated the rating for mike_c from 2 to 3 with note: kindred derper in fiat.
15:51	ben_vulpes	! rate princessnell 1 coulda been a contender.
15:51	ben_vulpes	!rate princessnell 1 coulda been a contender.
15:51	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/0bc12b32efc013f6
15:51	williamdunne	I've already been blocked from Max Keisers twitter, seems like I should be proud of it - I don't even remember sending a tweet to him
15:51	mircea_popescu	yea whatever happened to her
15:51	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.princessnell.1:ac067a68fa38b40733dfc1ef7abc81ce3ea936d5b0f6c18156e16f2a28119ee6
15:51	assbot	Successfully updated the rating for princessnell from 2 to 1 with note: coulda been a contender.
15:52	ben_vulpes	got sucked back into academia.
15:52	ben_vulpes	derps with derps alike.
15:52	ben_vulpes	!rate phf 1 lisper.
15:52	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/1802996aea227510
15:52	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.phf.1:fb393218870b21a4a538f2373afcb710a6c76d81e2dd4c73fe2df98ada1a357c
15:52	assbot	Successfully updated the rating for phf from 2 to 1 with note: lisper.
15:53	ben_vulpes	!rate asciilifeform 4 inventor, dreamer, builder, axe-man.
15:53	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/67783a843cee8f7f
15:53	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.asciilifeform.4:e03acfdc57029b6f7dabccc6af536737c2811b66f4a68e15ef2ffc589b94d72c
15:53	assbot	Successfully updated the rating for asciilifeform from 2 to 4 with note: inventor, dreamer, builder, axe-man.
15:53	ben_vulpes	!rate moiety 1 rip
		↖
15:53	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/261ebc091761b7c0
15:54	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.moiety.1:6a9e687df673d07fadd743f854a42c8afc189598fb7912745abd2636d041a98a
15:54	assbot	Successfully updated the rating for moiety from 2 to 1 with note: rip
15:54	ben_vulpes	!unrate brendafdez
15:54	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/95d23bcdf7fcfbbe
15:54	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.brendafdez:9f0adfbf033abc63d678e93287e52fee75e6f2b82cfb1e07ff2c5acb223c73b9
15:54	assbot	Successfully unrated brendafdez
15:55	ben_vulpes	ah christ will it never end
15:55	ben_vulpes	!rate pinkposixpxe 1 lent a hand with some bash.
		↖
15:55	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/6f9ee5aba38a569a
15:55	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.pinkposixpxe.1:f400fb6bdf67f7973cae3630895bba2bc99a7f3ccbf8b150aa1564505eb9d1b7
15:55	assbot	Successfully updated the rating for pinkposixpxe from 1 to 1 with note: lent a hand with some bash.
15:55	ben_vulpes	!unrate xanthyos
15:55	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/3cc0739ad93367e1
15:55	mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes "and the Bitcoin ramp to 1200 proved to be an artifact of a fractional-reserve exchange, for just two examples." << this doesn't make sense, because the exchange was fractional in btc not in fiat.
15:56	*	ben_vulpes is not operating in threaded mode today
15:56	mircea_popescu	really, the impact of mtgox on anything to do with bitcoin, its "price" y compris, is broadly overstated.
15:56	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.xanthyos:063771f705eb0f8c74a35a3ed06912c88db82549b6ad1aeedac4b1d224b64d6a
15:56	assbot	Successfully unrated xanthyos
15:56	ben_vulpes	!unrate hodlr
15:56	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/502a6bf941da9ec1
15:56	williamdunne	Much like the overstatement of China's impact in the present day
15:57	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.hodlr:45fe0b89d2b81cd1e9ef17977e7b9c27a1297f572d4ed8ed5500f9384cd11163
15:57	assbot	Successfully unrated hodlr
15:57	ben_vulpes	!unrate rainman28
15:57	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/bf6c898c08c2952a
15:57	mircea_popescu	depends present day of what. but yes, financially, it's more of a promise-to-impact, since the shanghai thing
15:57	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.rainman28:fb26fe46f1000f0fb04de29ceeee404f2769ffc32b41f35d3995f0431924305e
15:57	assbot	Successfully unrated rainman28
15:58	ben_vulpes	!rate mthreat 2 shared a cab with this pleasant chap one time.
15:58	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/5dee4da0ccb1ec1f
15:58	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.mthreat.2:e66c706e882d87e12793c048fd02435a335f4ea29f5ac893806eafe42c80be93
15:58	assbot	Successfully updated the rating for mthreat from 1 to 2 with note: shared a cab with this pleasant chap one time.
15:58	ben_vulpes	!unrate mats_cd03
15:58	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/84eb3e72be7ee2a3
15:58	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.mats_cd03:694d8202dde00120747c28cdc08fa3217fdf0c55bd331a07dc9ad8cae66011a6
15:58	assbot	Successfully unrated mats_cd03
15:59	ben_vulpes	!rate mats 1 skeptic, sapper.
15:59	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/e66ee0294b7f9e10
15:59	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.mats.1:5a41ff385c95c2cb42f4fb651b5945cbd0f218cf383a79b0d379bf915ff8d763
15:59	assbot	Successfully updated the rating for mats from 1 to 1 with note: skeptic, sapper.
16:00	mircea_popescu	anyway, this is definitely a seminal piece.
16:00	mircea_popescu	"all of the democrati tools" < +c
16:00	ben_vulpes	!rate hanbot 2 saw this legendary valkyrie in battle mode one time.
16:00	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/a1622e69bf372c63
16:00	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.hanbot.2:13c1fddf38e98958768f1e956448e6bc27e85e58e3320ef7efcf8c584d43ce68
16:00	assbot	Successfully updated the rating for hanbot from 1 to 2 with note: saw this legendary valkyrie in battle mode one time.
16:01	ben_vulpes	!unrate josh_rossi
16:01	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/d3f847bc03bfece9
16:01	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.unrate.josh_rossi:ba64844f870c914d60ce6482f2a844d69719676ccbd97077a0d3bd9270733b07
16:01	assbot	Successfully unrated josh_rossi
16:01	ben_vulpes	!rate mod6 foundation co-chair.
16:01	assbot	Rating should be any non zero value between 10 and -10.
16:01	ben_vulpes	!rate mod6 4 foundation co-chair.
16:01	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/b70049eea191906d
16:02	williamdunne	Does the rating have to be an integer?
16:02	ben_vulpes	williamdunne: try it and see!
16:02	williamdunne	!rate assbot 1.1 test
16:02	assbot	Rating should be any non zero value between 10 and -10.
16:02	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.mod6.4:137b83f998c89a7d7dcb1996a7d74390b3bff1f046f68382de16ea804db07274
16:02	assbot	Successfully updated the rating for mod6 from 2 to 4 with note: foundation co-chair.
16:02	ben_vulpes
16:02	ben_vulpes	!rate davout 3 you wouldn't believe how this man makes the girlies eyes twinkle.
16:02	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/e3540c4cdc3c1df2
16:03	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.davout.3:9ae5a5d63d4ee8a9954c91adf9e9f6e98def6da82fcacb235151890e35d96d98
16:03	assbot	Successfully updated the rating for davout from 2 to 3 with note: you wouldn't believe how this man makes the girlies eyes twinkle.
16:03	ben_vulpes	!rate davout -4 unrepentant rubbyist
16:03	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/6f1dfef95e13969d
16:03	williamdunne	lol
16:03	ben_vulpes	!rate assbot 10
16:03	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/1245f32714517440
16:04	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.assbot.10:20c9ead67ad3968ad9f9617e9359eb428b89d50bdeb9a5a0a6a3aeb848f0d9eb
16:04	assbot	Successfully added a rating of 10 for assbot.
16:04	ben_vulpes	!rate nanotube 1 runs the #bitcoin-otc web of trust.
16:04	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/2a303ab9bb15e443
16:04	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.nanotube.1:6b3acdaf3c87b906a7e2fbc5257d477ab2d19c4aed01c2de68966135d2ed16a4
16:04	assbot	Successfully added a rating of 1 for nanotube with note: runs the #bitcoin-otc web of trust.
16:04	ben_vulpes	!rate chetty 2 engineer of the world that was.
		↖
16:04	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/687347a7113625ca
16:05	ben_vulpes	!v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.chetty.2:d39733695e5e5231057a9eda40b1ee6bbdc8e536db46d48ada534ba1c2020678
16:05	assbot	Successfully added a rating of 2 for chetty with note: engineer of the world that was.
16:05	mircea_popescu	"endless cycles of printing that necessitates will do all that is necessary to turn a single Bitcoin into a nuclear sub." << is necessarily going to ?
16:05	ben_vulpes	done!
16:05	ben_vulpes	aha yeah oops
16:06	mircea_popescu	now you gotta go back through the turd and pick up my lines :D
16:06	ben_vulpes	nooooo
16:06	ben_vulpes	like some derpy nodejs program that got locked on a single queue
16:08	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-04-2015#1108289 << thread you were looking for
16:08	assbot	Logged on 23-04-2015 16:01:16; williamdunne: But in return you have more potential users of your XYZ business, and more potential to operate profitable businesses that are less-than-possible in the fiat world
16:08	ben_vulpes	<mircea_popescu> turns out i kinda like ben_vulpes blog. << blush
16:08	mircea_popescu	anyway, http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2015/04/24_bitcoin-needs-no-changes-to-destroy-your-world.html definitely part of vulgate nao.
16:08	assbot	Bitcoin needs no changes to destroy your world ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBrjJU )
16:10	ben_vulpes	i can't believe that i felt compelled to write it all out.
16:10	ben_vulpes	is all of the above not...elementary?
16:12	mircea_popescu	kinda what the vulgate is.
16:15	ben_vulpes	are you making a reference to the bible translation?
16:15	mircea_popescu	well yeah
16:16	mircea_popescu	tho ended up THE bible, canonically, in the 1500s
16:17	ben_vulpes	our vulgate then being pieces distilling conversations in the forum?
16:17	mircea_popescu	either that or the banal that's going to end up the canon.
16:17	ben_vulpes	heh
16:18	ben_vulpes	quelle vulgar
16:19	mircea_popescu	that name is pretty apt, in rip-rospect.
16:19	ben_vulpes	as in bible of the commoner?
16:20	mircea_popescu	"scoopbot_REVIVED"
16:22	mircea_popescu	;;ud wdw
16:22	gribble	http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=WDW \| WDW. an acronym for the expression: "Whatever, dude. Whatever." Used to express contempt. Nate: Where were you for so long? Chris: I was banging your ...
16:22	mircea_popescu	apparently it's actually worthless dumb whore.
16:23	williamdunne	Okay, Scoop will now fix himself in the event of my connection dropping
16:23	ben_vulpes	http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2015/04/24_bitcoin-needs-no-changes-to-destroy-your-world.html << williamdunne this one is for you, baby
16:23	assbot	Bitcoin needs no changes to destroy your world ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBtEo2 )
16:24	williamdunne	ben_vulpes: I'll give it a read
16:26	williamdunne	"about the stupidity of using the blockchain for anything that does not need to be:
16:26	williamdunne	immutable, fungible, non-discriminatory, and trustless"
16:26	williamdunne	-- Yeah I agree with you re: why bitcoin matters
16:26	williamdunne	(from my own post)
16:27	mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes there's a wider point here btw : the internet has been slowly evolving towards immutability. this trend is visible high and low - curtis yarvin's attempt to "remake bitcoin in his own yard" did not miss this point, the general response of the fetlife cattle to the meatlist is a very sound "internet is immutable", the wind is there.
16:28	mircea_popescu	i have nfi why this is the case, seeing how on the plain consideration immutability is a very retarded concept,
16:28	mircea_popescu	but nevertheless, here we are.
16:28	ben_vulpes	williamdunne: your post?
16:29	williamdunne	ben_vulpes: I too have the capability to write, even if I'm not as eloquent as most here
16:29	mircea_popescu	so link ?
16:30	williamdunne	http://thethug.life
16:30	assbot	Lego Under the Giant's Feet ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBuzVF )
16:31	mircea_popescu	ahahaha
16:31	mircea_popescu	well.. at least it's not "bitcointhug.yo"
16:31	mircea_popescu	williamdunne so add it to the scoop
16:31	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64249 @ 0.00030493 = 19.5914 BTC [+]
16:32	williamdunne	Sure thing, well someone had to make use of the gTLDs
16:32	mircea_popescu	"immutable, fungible, non-discriminatory, and trustless" hm. this seems actually correct.
16:33	mircea_popescu	take discrimination and put it in the wot <-> currency has no business discriminating.
16:33	mircea_popescu	puts the entire serenissima vs nato dispute in much better contrast, from this angle. they want to infect everything with everything,
16:33	mircea_popescu	make it the job of banks to police, etc.
16:33	williamdunne	I think I covered the WoT a bit (well, GPG contracts) in 'Your reputation is a commodity'
16:33	mircea_popescu	socialism, after all, is not optional anymore than water level is optional.
16:34	mircea_popescu	(what i mean is, you don't get the option ot have some here and none there. if you have some, it's everywhere)
16:34	ben_vulpes	http://thethug.life/product-before-capital/ << an add'l note on the exchanges is that the product here is of necessity undifferentiable except with how liquid your shit is
16:34	assbot	Venture Backing isn't enough if no-one wants your product — Lego Under the Giant's Feet ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBv81B )
16:35	mircea_popescu	not even.
16:35	williamdunne	ben_vulpes: I'd disagree, while liquidity is important when it comes to profiting through trading there are features that matter, i.e leverage
16:36	mircea_popescu	the trustworthyness of the operator is first. liquidity second. features maybe third tho ideally the thing should be just open and anyone can build their own features.
16:36	ben_vulpes	heh without trust there is no product.
16:37	mircea_popescu	right,
16:37	ben_vulpes	http://thethug.life/reputation-commodity-exchange/#fn:1 << bro do you even airgap?
		↖
16:37	assbot	Your reputation is a commodity — Lego Under the Giant's Feet ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBvAwW )
16:37	mircea_popescu	"CEO MIMEX, opinions displayed do not reflect those of MIMEX" << what sense does this make ? if the opinions of the ceo are not mandatory for mimex, then what does "ceo" mean ?
16:37	mircea_popescu	and whence is mimex to get OTHER opinions from ? you got a coo ?
16:38	williamdunne	mircea_popescu: Yeah
16:38	williamdunne	mircea_popescu: More specifically it means staying in business is more important than my morals
16:38	williamdunne	For example
16:38	williamdunne	I personally I have a disdain for compliance of any sort
16:38	mircea_popescu	i know that if i'm the guy where the buck stops (usually rendered as "ceo" in anglocircles) then god damned are my opinionsmandatory for the whole organisation. wtf else are we even doing.
16:38	mircea_popescu	heh.
16:38	williamdunne	But I would prefer to be in business and doing compliance than out of business and not
16:39	mircea_popescu	sucks toi be you i guess.
16:39	williamdunne	Moral dilemma
16:39	mircea_popescu	https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/572468782057013248/WtdCdJXG_400x400.jpeg << so who are teh people ?
		↖
16:39	assbot	... ( http://bit.ly/1PBvVj4 )
16:40	williamdunne	L <-> R
16:40	williamdunne	Friend, Moi, Friend, Girlfriend
16:41	mircea_popescu	that's more "what" , but anyway.
16:41	mircea_popescu	ima read this noob blog later, off to eat some steak. you know what this means, ben_vulpes ? steak ? yes ?
16:41	mircea_popescu	mwahahaha.
16:42	*	ben_vulpes sobs
16:42	williamdunne	http://thethug.life/reputation-commodity-exchange/#fn:1 << bro do you even airgap? << Me? Not for my personal key anyway
16:42	assbot	Your reputation is a commodity — Lego Under the Giant's Feet ... ( http://bit.ly/1PBwfOT )
16:43	ben_vulpes	the point is a constrasting of how people use keys (properly) and how people use trezors (improperly)
16:43	williamdunne	"I am not saying that the needs of the many will not be heard or, when they're justified needs, attended to, but I am saying that they must be channeled through their liege lords instead of democratically elected "representatives" who solicit donations from the rich by promising to protect them from the ravages of the destitute mob, and votes from the destitute mob by promising to protect them from the
16:43	williamdunne	depredations of the vile capitalists, ultimately serving only their own cronies at the expense of both those who funded their campaigns and those who voted for them. " heh
16:44	williamdunne	Concise summary
16:44	ben_vulpes	hey well mircea_popescu i'm off to have some real coffe
16:45	ben_vulpes	savvy?
		↖
16:47	williamdunne	ben_vulpes: Okay read your article
16:47	williamdunne	I guess what missing from it is that I still don't see why the increase in block-size, or easier access to running a semi-node is inherently bad
16:47	williamdunne	Nor why having more people using it is bad
16:48	williamdunne	While comparisons between bitcoin and a party fully of popped-collars are fine it doesn't really answer the question
16:48	cazalla	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110314 <<< this is just the default manner wordpress creates an archive page, i think, unless bb made changes
16:48	assbot	Logged on 25-04-2015 18:27:00; mircea_popescu: cazalla dude the http://qntra.net/archives/ page kicks ass.
16:55	williamdunne	Wyrdmantis: Thanks for the words earlier.
16:57	wyrdmantis	williamdunne: I appreciate the "Lego Under the Giant's Feet" header among other things. And the paypal post also :)
16:58	williamdunne	Thank you, yeah. Plenty of derpage about paypal
17:07	cazalla	ben_vulpes, first link in your "Bitcoin needs no changes to destroy your world" article is busted
17:11	mod6	trinque: going throught this 'building a gentoo ami' guide... any thoughts on the "Select system profile" section? I was about to pick #11...
17:12	trinque	mod6: I tend to use the hardened profile along with a hardened kernel
17:13	trinque	with the normal glibc, not any of the alternatives
17:13	trinque	for whatever good pax and grsecurity actually do..
17:14	mod6	alright. pretend i don't know what any of that means.
17:14	mod6	#11 is ok?
17:14	trinque	dunno them by number :)
17:14	trinque	what's the title
17:15	trinque	hardened/linux/amd64 ?
17:15	mod6	hardened/linux/amd64/no-multilib
17:15	trinque	no-multilib is probably fine if you don't intend to use any 32bit things
17:16	mod6	yeah, not on this machine. i'll probably end up creating a totally seperate 32bit instance at another time.
17:16	trinque	https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Hardened << worth reading
17:16	assbot	Project:Hardened - Gentoo Wiki ... ( http://bit.ly/1DnrD5W )
17:16	mod6	ok thx!
17:16	trinque	no problemo
17:16	menahem	seeing as everyone is posting their blog love, i did write this today: http://chedr.ca/2015/04/your-emotions-are-irrelevant-and-youve-missed-the-point/ (brings up mircea_popescu 's discussion on RIPple with W3C)
		↖
17:16	assbot	Your emotions are irrelevant, and you've missed the point - Chedr ... ( http://bit.ly/1DnrEXF )
17:19	mod6	eek! nano keybindings!
17:31	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45600 @ 0.00030493 = 13.9048 BTC [+]
17:35	trinque	mod6: of course as per earlier thread, this idea that xen guests can be secure is laughable
17:35	trinque	rules out a class of problems I guess, but certainly should still be considered enemy territory
17:36	mod6	yeah, i got that from the above convo about hypervisors. thanks.
17:37	mod6	i guess this is just my first attempt at it. this build of gentoo needs to built with nothing extra so we can build all of the rest by hand, then we'll have a clue as to what tool chain it's using and it's not using something wacky behind our backs.
17:38	mod6	"stripped down" basically.
17:38	mod6	s/wacky/unexpected/
17:39	trinque	mod6: for sure
17:39	trinque	what I'd love to see someday is a DC with no virtualization, just tinier boxes
		↖
17:41	trinque	and some automation around sending new boxes of various sizes into service
17:42	trinque	I once worked for a company that was early (first?) in the server blade space; something like that where there's a uniform backplane which can host different configurations, maybe
17:43	mod6	cool.
17:43	mod6	this menuconfig thing ...
17:43	trinque	shit isn't it?
17:43	trinque	hitting ? will let you search for symbols
17:43	mod6	i don't even see the paravirtualized guest support option
17:43	trinque	and from that screen a number key will let you jump to a result
17:43	mod6	ok cool. thanks.
17:44	trinque	I am embarassed to admit that it took until this year for me to discover that
17:44	trinque	:D
17:44	mod6	> Search (Paravirtualized)
17:44	mod6	No matches found.
17:44	mod6	lol
17:45	mod6	oh, search for Xen found it.
17:45	mod6	Linux guest support (HYPERVISOR_GUEST [=n])
17:46	williamdunne	trinque: Wouldn't that be the same as any DC that offers cheap metal?
17:46	trinque	williamdunne: I tend to think there's a place for metal as cheap as a micro ec2 instance for example
17:47	williamdunne	trinque: Oh like a stack of rPis in a server enclosure?
17:47	trinque	could exist, I'm not aware if so
17:47	trinque	williamdunne: yeah aside from the rpi being a particularly heinous device
17:47	williamdunne	Yeah I'm not aware either
17:47	trinque	not that I don't own many of them
17:47	williamdunne	Sure, just the general idea
17:47	trinque	indeed
17:47	trinque	so then, the nice thing about ec2 is you can spin up instances of various sizes and it "just happens" rapidly
17:48	trinque	that's where having racks that can rack/unrack hardware on the fly and a uniform backplane sounds appealing
17:48	williamdunne	For sure
17:48	trinque	that part might be retarded, and effort might be better put into anticipating what hardware needs to be on the racks already
17:51	trinque	it's a problem that from the perspective of trying to maximize occupancy is much easier to solve with the virtualization turd
17:53	mod6	ok qq: i saved the config as 'btc-dev-gentoo64-ami.config', under the chroot: /usr/src/linux ; do I need to do anything specific to ensure that I'm compiling with this config instead of the defaulted filename '.config' ?
17:53	trinque	mod6: there may or may not be a flag to tell it to use a different config file, but by default it will use .config
17:53	trinque	typically I copy the config there, and also store it elsewhere for reuse
17:53	mod6	ok
17:54	trinque	so you don't mrproper yourself out of a config
17:54	mod6	gotcha
17:54	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62200 @ 0.00030141 = 18.7477 BTC [-]
17:54	Naphex	mod6: i'd just do the chroot thing and getting it done. doing a custom kernel won't help you much running in a hypervisor
17:54	mod6	i just copied my config to .config, w/e
17:55	mod6	Naphex: im pretty dumb.
17:55	trinque	Naphex: rolling your own gentoo is a good learning experience
17:55	Naphex	trinque: yeah but might as well just skip the kernel.
17:55	mod6	i know like, zero about gentoo.
17:56	Naphex	trinque: gentoo doesn't even have iptables defaulted, so as soon as his done he'll end up recompiling
		↖
17:56	trinque	recompiling the kernel 100 times is sop
17:56	trinque	:)
17:56	mod6	awe fuq
17:56	trinque	sure configuring a kernel is a massive pain in the dick, but at least you get more acquainted with what's in there
17:57	Naphex	trinque: i like doing it once and then just reusing the config on the same hardware :P
17:57	trinque	indeed, he's just getting started!
17:57	trinque	no sense in giving him the answers to the test
17:57	Naphex	but if you wanna learn on aws go for it. if you just want to set up chroot and start bootstrapping
17:59	asciilifeform	;;later tell ben_vulpes http://imgur.com/a/xogco << back from this
17:59	assbot	electron microscopy visit - Album on Imgur ... ( http://bit.ly/1bFqGR5 )
17:59	gribble	The operation succeeded.
17:59	Naphex	mod6: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/Base#Chrooting make a folder, unpack stage 3.
17:59	assbot	Installing the Gentoo base system - Gentoo Wiki ... ( http://bit.ly/1bFqFwF )
17:59	Naphex	later you can keep on recompiling the kernel
17:59	trinque	Naphex: eh? stage 3 doesn't give you a kernel
17:59	trinque	or does it now?
18:00	trinque	never did before
18:00	Naphex	trinque: it is in portage, you do an emerge for gentoo-sources
18:00	Naphex	trinque: or hardened-sources for production
18:00	trinque	uhuh, that's not a compiled kernel
18:00	mod6	that's what i just am doing now. it's compiling from that.
18:00	trinque	you still have to configure it
18:00	trinque	or use genkernel like some kind of pedestrian
18:00	mod6	i have a chroot set up, and all that. im still not even sure how any of this will work.
18:00	mod6	but i'll just take your word for it.
18:01	Naphex	trinque: genkernel is pretty helpful on servers with firmware for building a quick initramfs
18:01	trinque	you keep saying "quick"
18:01	Naphex	trinque: boot time is fast anyway
18:01	trinque	that's not what's called for when learning
18:01	trinque	neither is boot time being fast relevant
18:02	asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110312 << what, i gotta draw a picture ?
18:02	assbot	Logged on 25-04-2015 18:22:57; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110187 << you know how the literary criticism goes, "don't tell, show". you've not really shown.
18:02	Naphex	well its better to learn from best practices on these kind of things and drill down
18:02	asciilifeform	;;google jvm exploit
18:02	gribble	The Java Security Exploit in (Mostly) Plain English - Tim Boudreau: <http://timboudreau.com/blog/The_Java_Security_Exploit_in_(Mostly)_Plain_English/read>; Report: Half of all exploits target Java \| JavaWorld: <http://www.javaworld.com/article/2104862/java-security/report-half-of-all-exploits-target-java.html>; Java and Java Virtual Machine security vulnerabilities ... - Black (1 more message)
18:02	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28941 @ 0.00030133 = 8.7208 BTC [-]
18:02	trinque	asciilifeform: reminds me, you are the top result for "critique of clojure" on my googles at least
18:02	asciilifeform	trinque: was among top ~10 for 'clojure' per se, for a while
18:03	trinque	nice
18:03	Naphex	asciilifeform: applets are applets and security issues are all around. being a good dev implies taking care with deploying your product
		↖
18:03	asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110320 << fits right in the the other 1,001 things that turn into turd ideas when 'everybody does it', like private automobile
18:03	assbot	Logged on 25-04-2015 18:29:26; mircea_popescu: not to even consider the fact that once this commodifies, the night discount goes away
18:04	asciilifeform	Naphex: how do you take care of undiscovered 0days in turdware stack ?
18:04	asciilifeform	other than by -not using it-
18:04	trinque	asciilifeform: uh like, #shipit
18:04	Naphex	asciilifeform: and you get all sorts of added on. as well the standerd jre is pretty clean. most of the exploiting fun is on j2ee app servers and other enterprisey thingies
18:04	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 126309 @ 0.00030571 = 38.6139 BTC [+] {2}
18:05	asciilifeform	http://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-5/product_id-1526/cvssscoremin-6/cvssscoremax-6.99/SUN-JRE.html << mmno.
18:05	assbot	SUN JRE : List of security vulnerabilities ... ( http://bit.ly/1bFrGES )
18:05	asciilifeform	if that's 'pretty clean', i shudder to imagine Naphex's idea of 'dirty'
18:05	Naphex	asciilifeform: there won't be any 0days in the basic stuff. There are rarely buffers in the stack. And everything is accounted for. NIO/events/the threads etc are all safe and you don't give raw user input to them
18:05	Naphex	asciilifeform: getting any shellcode anywhere would be retarded
18:06	Naphex	asciilifeform: the languasge and jre are pretty fine. when it comes to enterprise stacks and j2ee it goes all around
18:06	asciilifeform	but to get back to original thread, i wasn't even specifically thinking of 0days in the jre itself, but the overall turdification and prevention of fits-in-head that java inescapably leads to.
18:06	Naphex	asciilifeform: and you defend from 0 days as always. running hardened and buring your servers while filltering all input
18:06	asciilifeform	to paraphrase mircea_popescu article, if christ saves in java - let me go straight to hell.
		↖ ↖
18:06	Naphex	burying*
18:07	asciilifeform	burying ?
18:07	asciilifeform	mistranslation from ??? ?
18:07	asciilifeform	where should i bury my servers? back yard? cemetery ?
18:07	Naphex	asciilifeform: in your private encrypted lan maybe
18:08	trinque	wtf is this guy?
18:08	trinque	Naphex: there's a difference between knowing of things and knowing them comprehensively
18:08	Naphex	i agree ;]
18:09	trinque	so atop your shit tower of an incomprehensible computing stack and a further incomprehensible virtual computing stack you what?
18:09	trinque	it's all probably fine because reasons?
18:10	Naphex	huh?
18:10	trinque	the situation there is too complex for you or any other fool to be able to claim with certainty that it's secure
18:10	Naphex	which situation?
18:11	trinque	I'm not going to copy and paste the last 20 lines of logs for you
18:11	Naphex	well i have no clue what you're saying is too complex
18:11	Naphex	to be secure
18:11	Naphex	wtf are you talking about really?
18:12	asciilifeform	gotta love this ritualistic 'secure' that doesn't entail actually understanding anything
18:12	trinque	asciilifeform: you just cast "protect" with enough manna and you're good
18:12	Naphex	asciilifeform: are your servers secure ascii?
18:12	asciilifeform	mumble the words, sprinkle blood of virgin --- s3cur3!
18:12	Naphex	asciilifeform: do you do any net code? in what?
18:12	Naphex	is it secure?
18:12	trinque	also make sure you've got an enterprise grade "encrypted LAN"
18:12	Naphex	asciilifeform: how do you defend from 0days? on the stuff you host?
18:13	asciilifeform	Naphex likes to ask questions.
18:13	Naphex	preach me the 'secure' way please
18:13	Naphex	i'd like the learn
18:13	Naphex	to*
18:13	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39796 @ 0.00031407 = 12.4987 BTC [+] {3}
18:13	asciilifeform	Naphex: if you actually would - straight to the logs.
18:14	asciilifeform	Naphex: if you're interested in my concept in particular, see article 'don't blame the mice.'
		↖
18:14	Naphex	asciilifeform: i do work, explain me in tehnical terms
18:14	Naphex	do you do anything to prevent?
18:14	Naphex	or protect yourself, any techniques?
18:14	trinque	"I don't want to read that much; can you tweet me about secure?"
18:15	Naphex	trinque: lol, you think encrypted lans are 'enterprise'
18:15	asciilifeform	!s specificity of diddling
18:15	assbot	4 results for 'specificity of diddling' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=specificity+of+diddling
18:15	asciilifeform	^ basic principle
18:15	asciilifeform	Naphex ^
18:16	trinque	Naphex: you'd have to give me a coherent explanation of what you think an encrypted LAN is before I could possibly tell you what I think about it.
18:16	Naphex	trinque: if you have servers, and they are linked together maybe you're using a DC Switch
18:16	Naphex	trinque: and you might want the data transfered between them, you know encrypted
18:16	Naphex	so people don't snoop on it. maybe its private
18:17	williamdunne	Naphex: Isn't the general idea that you use end-to-end encryption not hub and spoke encryption
18:17	Naphex	so maybe you setup, ipsec.. or something to keep that channel encrypted.
18:17	Naphex	williamdunne: ipsec is end-to-end
18:19	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9250 @ 0.00031689 = 2.9312 BTC [+] {2}
18:21	trinque	Naphex: it takes some humility to be able to see that while you may be able to reason about ipsec in the abstract, neither you nor anyone else can take the current computing stack and fit it in his head
18:21	trinque	(notwithstanding that I don't see how ipsec protects some JRE app)
18:21	trinque	if you cannot fit it in your head, you are a liar if you point to it and say you know it to be secure
18:22	trinque	if we're talking about how best to patch the raft we're riding in, sure, tape the thing and hope for the best
18:22	trinque	if tape is all you have
18:22	decimation	no analysis of security can begin without identifying exactly what one wishes to keep secret, and from whom
18:26	Naphex	trinque: okay. make your point
18:27	Naphex	trinque: is it the word secuire thats the problem, s/secure/replace/ ?
18:27	ben_vulpes	<asciilifeform> ;;later tell ben_vulpes http://imgur.com/a/xogco << back from this << oooh
		↖
18:27	assbot	electron microscopy visit - Album on Imgur ... ( http://bit.ly/1bFv82r )
18:28	Naphex	anyway, what i was saying is you take steps 'secure' or tape your stuff always, and you don't feed raw data to your apps if you can filter the input beforehand.
		↖
18:28	asciilifeform	again with the rituals and enumerated badness.
18:29	Naphex	anyway. words ain't much to me and I ain't one to duke it out on irc for random bullshit
18:29	decimation	Naphex: can you sign your name under the resulting machine code - all of it - that will 'filter' and 'app' the crap coming from your socket?
18:29	Naphex	keep your stuff safe. i try to
18:30	ben_vulpes	<asciilifeform> ... prevention of fits-in-head << can vouch for the pita of this in clojure
18:30	ben_vulpes	how does it work?
18:30	ben_vulpes	fuck if i know.
18:31	asciilifeform	Naphex: ... I ain't one to duke it out on irc for random bullshit << spewing garbage, on the other hand, is perfectly fine ?
18:31	Naphex	decimation: yeah, you can do a lot of stuff. depending on far you want to go
18:31	Naphex	asciilifeform: which part of it was garbage?
18:32	asciilifeform	the 'filtering', 'encrypted lan', and other idiot industry shibboleths
18:32	asciilifeform	the jvm advocacy
18:32	Naphex	what's wrong with them?
18:32	asciilifeform	and pretty much all of it.
18:32	ben_vulpes	<williamdunne> trinque: Oh like a stack of rPis in a server enclosure? << just start buying cheap old blades and racking them.
18:32	Naphex	yeah jvm does its job what of it?
18:32	ben_vulpes	there's nothing more undervalued right now than cheap old blades.
		↖ ↖
18:32	Naphex	and i wasn't advocating it
18:32	Naphex	you were shiting on it
18:32	asciilifeform	i will continue to shit on it.
18:32	Naphex	as i will on clisp
18:33	asciilifeform	clisp is pretty bad.
18:33	ben_vulpes	lol what is clisp?
18:33	Naphex	cause it shit, and the paranthesis suck
18:33	ben_vulpes	bahahaha
18:33	Naphex	:P
18:33	ben_vulpes	wow i've never heard that argument made in the wild
18:33	ben_vulpes	what -- specifically -- hurts about the parens, naphex?
18:33	Naphex	ben_vulpes: the button
18:33	trinque	oh dear
18:34	Naphex	and really, i hate the way they look
18:34	Naphex	(
18:34	trinque	ben_vulpes: cheap blades for sure
18:34	Naphex	)))
18:34	*	ben_vulpes ' tiny brain drips from ears
18:34	asciilifeform	naggum had an interesting observation about why folks very quickly bring out the 'parentheses pain' >> http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3138961746451885@naggum.no.html
18:34	assbot	Re: Follow up to "New To Lisp: Advantages of Lisp syntax" - Naggum cll archive ... ( http://bit.ly/1bFw1YO )
18:34	decimation	blades suck ass, but you can probably buy them from junk dealers for cheap
18:35	asciilifeform	but i think we did this one here. nobody, apparently, reads logs
18:35	trinque	decimation: yeah, the idea would be to replace tiny VMs I think
18:35	trinque	I'd have a use for that
18:35	*	trinque has to step away for a bit
18:35	trinque	Naphex: consider that your gut reactions may be poorly tuned
18:36	decimation	I'm not against putting things on bare metal, just that blades lock you into a generally shitty 'blade-crate' vendor
18:36	Naphex	trinque: what do you do?
18:37	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 78900 @ 0.00030014 = 23.681 BTC [-]
18:37	ben_vulpes	menahem: blockquotes on your blog with the email formatting is a pita to read
18:37	ben_vulpes	!up menahem
18:37	ben_vulpes	decimation: what do you mean 'blade-crate' vendor?
18:37	asciilifeform	Naphex: the button << wai wat
18:37	menahem	ben_vulpes totally. didnt know how to approach that.
18:38	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12900 @ 0.00029199 = 3.7667 BTC [-]
18:38	ben_vulpes	Naphex: he runs a payment processor and web fast food order taker/relayer to fast fooderies
18:38	ben_vulpes	built the whole thing himself, he did
18:38	Naphex	trinque: how do you keep the payment data secure?
18:38	ben_vulpes	menahem: try a <pre> tag instead
18:38	Naphex	do you worry about 0days? and attacks?
18:38	menahem	ben_vulpes ill give that a go next time.
18:39	Naphex	trinque: have you any protection in place for the payment data and the orders?
18:39	menahem	thanks tho.
18:40	Naphex	trinque: do you consider your solutions secure?
18:41	decimation	ben_vulpes: how do you mount your blades to the rack?
18:43	ben_vulpes	usually i bolt them on directly, but i'm a barbarian and haven't actually derped much with physical servers.
18:43	ben_vulpes	you're talking about slides etc?
18:43	decimation	are you talking about a server that fits in 1u or 2u?
18:43	ben_vulpes	i've only ever racked 1us
18:44	ben_vulpes	you people keep mistaking me for someone who knows what he's doing or talking about
18:44	decimation	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blade_server#/media/File:Enclosure_proliant.jpg
18:44	assbot	Blade server - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1bFxkqz )
18:44	decimation	typically the word 'blade' is used for a computer that's mounted vertically in the rack, in some kind of proprietary container
18:44	ben_vulpes	ah gotcha
18:44	decimation	usually with power, bus, network, etc supplied as part of the 'crate'
		↖
18:44	ben_vulpes	my mistake my mistake
18:45	decimation	as opposed to a 1u server you slip into the rack
18:45	ben_vulpes	yup
18:45	ben_vulpes	<ben_vulpes> there's nothing more undervalued right now than cheap old servers << okay fixd
18:45	decimation	yeah makes sense
18:46	decimation	although in terms of raw compute power/watt they can suck
18:47	decimation	actually I wonder how many folks use an old dell/hp server hosted at home on their cable modem
18:48	decimation	and then route packets through aws just for spam protection
18:48	asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110783 << kakobrekla linked to one of these.
18:48	assbot	Logged on 25-04-2015 21:39:55; trinque: what I'd love to see someday is a DC with no virtualization, just tinier boxes
18:49	asciilifeform	(some place that let out 'arm' boxes)
18:50	decimation	asciilifeform: supposedly there are moves to stuff thousands of little arm servers in a rack
18:50	decimation	but I haven't seen it become mainstream
18:50	asciilifeform	decimation: kakobrekla linked to a farm which takes orders even now, but i don't have the url handy
18:50	asciilifeform	in the log, somewhere.
18:51	decimation	yeah but you can't go to dell,hp, and order a crate of arm boxes (to my knowledge)
18:52	asciilifeform	decimation: they operate under the dictum 'thou shalt not produce machine upon which microshit cannot run and in fact be the preferred or forced choice'
18:52	asciilifeform	when microshit's arm winblows catched up, dell et al - will ship'em.
18:52	asciilifeform	*catches
18:54	decimation	HP recommends Microsoft Windows
18:54	decimation	actually dell kinda tried http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/poweredge-c5125/pd
18:54	assbot	Dell PowerEdge C5125 Microserver \| Dell ... ( http://bit.ly/1E5Pdbb )
18:55	decimation	but 12 servers in a 3u box is lam
18:55	asciilifeform	and will sell you the necessary x86 box, yes, 'in any colour you like so long as...' (TM)
18:55	decimation	need 100 in a 3u box
18:55	decimation	there's an obvious tension between "we sell you cheap enterprise servers" and "we only support xeon"
18:56	*	asciilifeform wonders if any known arm incarnation supports ecc ram
18:57	decimation	asciilifeform: did you notice that ti now sells msp430 with 'fram'?
18:57	decimation	http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/microcontrollers_16-bit_32-bit/msp/ultra-low_power/msp430frxx_fram/overview.page
18:57	assbot	FRAM Microcontroller - Overview - MSP430 FRAM Series - TI.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1E5PXwU )
18:57	*	asciilifeform recalls a number of these
18:59	decimation	msp430 actually is a decent candidate for small micro-controller of interest
18:59	decimation	there are full verilog implementations available, for future-proofing
18:59	asciilifeform	available where ?
18:59	decimation	one of the few 'open-cores' that isn't vaporware
19:00	decimation	http://opencores.org/project,openmsp430
19:00	assbot	openMSP430 :: Overview :: OpenCores ... ( http://bit.ly/1E5QG1b )
19:00	asciilifeform	neato
19:00	decimation	also some guy claims to have a working 'gnat' implementation http://sourceforge.net/projects/msp430ada/
19:00	assbot	MSP430-Ada \| SourceForge.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1E5QM9e )
19:00	*	asciilifeform tried 'opensparc' and a number of smaller things, but not this
19:01	decimation	unfortunately no floating point unit, but that isn't needed for the target market here
		↖
19:13	trinque	Naphex: one does the best he can with the leaky raft
19:13	trinque	but that should not keep him from imagining a better vessel
19:15	asciilifeform	trinque: '... if you actually cause them to understand it in the course of a discussion, you will only make them miserable and hate their lives. People are pretty good at detecting that this is a likely outcome of thinking, and it takes conscious effort to brace yourself and get through such experiences.'
19:15	asciilifeform	( http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3244575386963745@naggum.no.html << much on topic.)
19:15	assbot	Re: Lisp advocacy misadventures - Naggum cll archive ... ( http://bit.ly/1E5VN1m )
19:15	trinque	very much so, have read it
19:16	asciilifeform	!up gabriel_laddel
19:16	gabriel_laddel	thank you
19:17	asciilifeform	trinque: doctor sometimes tells patient hard truths about where the latter is headed. but doctor can dispense dope to ease the pain. this is hard to do over irc.
19:17	gabriel_laddel	Naphex: regarding security - read more. A few links that have turned up in the logs are available at http://gabriel-laddel.github.io/arsttep.html#sec-6-2-3
19:17	assbot	A Realistic Solution to the Education Problem (DRAFT) ... ( http://bit.ly/1E5Wjwg )
19:17	gabriel_laddel	Naphex: regarding lisp - read more. This section + footnotes http://gabriel-laddel.github.io/arsttep.html#sec-6-2-1
19:17	assbot	A Realistic Solution to the Education Problem (DRAFT) ... ( http://bit.ly/1E5WvMd )
19:17	gabriel_laddel	then read all of loper os
19:18	gabriel_laddel	then all of the logs
19:18	gabriel_laddel	EVERYTHING you've thought on the subject has been covered.
19:20	asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: that clock i bought from the street spammer works about as well as ought to be expected. sometimes stops for 2,3,4,5+ hours - then runs... then, again...
19:21	asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: almost made the mistake of trying to catch the planes by that clock, but realized in time.
19:21	asciilifeform	i mention it because i can imagine a world where such clocks are considered not only acceptable, but 'state of the art' and 'best practice'
		↖
19:22	asciilifeform	(if computing is any guide of the quantity and sheer vomitrous power of fecalia people can be persuaded to swallow)
19:26	pete_dushenski	;;later tell mircea_popescu on the contrary! http://www.contravex.com/2015/04/24/narrated-video-of-the-poem-stop-all-the-clocks-again/#comment-16132
19:26	assbot	Narrated video of the poem ‘Stop all the clocks (again)’ \| Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1E5ZoN2 )
19:26	gribble	The operation succeeded.
19:26	pete_dushenski	goddam wp is hit and miss.
19:27	williamdunne	gabriel_laddel:
19:27	pete_dushenski	in any event... just read your bitcoin treatise, ben_vulpes. sharp!
19:32	pete_dushenski	;;later tell peterl if you're alive, http://bablogs.btcscoop.com isn't talking to cascadianhacker.
19:32	assbot	#bitcoin-assets blog posts ... ( http://bit.ly/1E61dJK )
19:32	gribble	The operation succeeded.
19:32	pete_dushenski	williamdunne mebbe you could have scoopbot_revived post to a page on your site ?
		↖
19:33	Naphex	gabriel_laddel: hi o/ thanks for the links, what is Masamune? did you write it?
19:33	pete_dushenski	a blogpost repository of sorts for b-a
19:33	williamdunne	What like a log of all blog posts
19:33	gabriel_laddel	Naphex: Currently writing it.
19:33	williamdunne	Definitely possible
19:33	Naphex	gabriel_laddel: what is it?
19:33	gabriel_laddel	Naphex: read the linked post if you'd like to know
19:33	williamdunne	pete_dushenski: I'll do that tomorrow/Monday
19:33	pete_dushenski	williamdunne i'd appreciate this service and i'm sure i'm not alone
19:33	Naphex	gabriel_laddel: maybe other people want to know too, i will check the link
19:33	Naphex	gabriel_laddel: maybe other people wanna know and ask questions
19:34	Naphex	gabriel_laddel: can you tell me anything about it?
19:34	gabriel_laddel	and perhaps I'll tell them to stfu and read?
19:34	gabriel_laddel	FUCK YOU READ MORE
19:34	williamdunne	pete_dushenski: Sure, a #b-a library of sorts
19:34	Naphex	oh
19:34	Naphex	well fuck off then
19:34	Naphex	you and your shitty github page
19:34	Naphex	see i don't have to care
19:34	gabriel_laddel	;; gettrust Naphex
19:34	gribble	WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user gabriel_laddel to user Naphex: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=gabriel_laddel&dest=Naphex \| WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=Naphex \| Rated since: Tue Apr 15 12:14:50 2014
19:35	pete_dushenski	williamdunne exactly that. thanks for taking a look at this! damn you're useful.
19:35	williamdunne	pete_dushenski: Very welcome. Not too big of a job
19:37	williamdunne	It won't cover all of history though, most of the RSS feeds only cover 5-10 posts each
		↖
19:37	pete_dushenski	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110730 << williamdunne, whoa are you like 21 or something ?
19:37	assbot	Logged on 25-04-2015 20:39:52; mircea_popescu: https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/572468782057013248/WtdCdJXG_400x400.jpeg << so who are teh people ?
19:37	williamdunne	Although obviously it will cover all future posts
19:37	williamdunne	pete_dushenski: 18
19:37	pete_dushenski	lol snap.
19:38	pete_dushenski	an impressed is me.
19:38	williamdunne	Thanks, thought I'd start young
19:38	pete_dushenski	and yea, 5-10 posts or w/e is fine.
19:38	pete_dushenski	of history.
19:40	williamdunne	Ideal, well I can definitely get that done, not a big job. I'll see if there is any standardized way to get RSS to provide a full history
19:41	pete_dushenski	excellent.
19:43	asciilifeform	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110941 << interestingly, i asked about the cost. was told something like '$1m for the old style, 2.5 for the new generation.' fella said this with straight face, too, as if there were nothing remarkable about this factoid.
		↖
19:43	assbot	Logged on 25-04-2015 22:27:41; ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> ;;later tell ben_vulpes http://imgur.com/a/xogco << back from this << oooh
19:43	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu et al ^^^ mega-inflationary-l0lz4tr0n
19:44	pete_dushenski	;;later tell menahem re: http://chedr.ca/2015/04/your-emotions-are-irrelevant-and-youve-missed-the-point/ << 1. dunno why i didn't see the trackbacks from this... 2. kinda hard to read with all the >>>>s 3. a blogger is you!
19:44	assbot	Your emotions are irrelevant, and you've missed the point - Chedr ... ( http://bit.ly/1QuBrFK )
19:44	gribble	The operation succeeded.
19:44	asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: creature in the photo is pet, not owner of instrument
19:45	asciilifeform	item in the chamber was, i think, a dragonfly
19:45	menahem	pete_dushenski ive got a good assistant now.. freed up some time. ;) and agreed, my bad on the >>, it's an email thread.
19:45	pete_dushenski	asciilifeform i seem to recall '$1mn' being tossed around about 10 years ago
19:46	pete_dushenski	menahem just something to edit out. blogs aren't chiseled in stone y'know ;)
19:46	asciilifeform	pete_dushenski: it also matters, for what. usually these things need 3-phase mains, cooling water, often - a handy dewar with ln2, maintenance contract, etc.
19:47	menahem	pete_dushenski def, ill try <pre> as per ben_vulpes reco. always a work in progress. :)
19:47	pete_dushenski	asciilifeform ugh 'maintenance contracts'. perhaps the only thing more blood-sucking than a mortgage
19:47	asciilifeform	the vacuum pumps (all stages) appeared to be built into the cabinet, however.
19:47	asciilifeform	also visited a place where they did sputtering.
19:48	pete_dushenski	for the ignorant, what's 'sputtering' ?
19:49	asciilifeform	http://www.uccs.edu/~tchriste/courses/PHYS549/549lectures/sputtertech.html << likbez
19:49	assbot	UCCS \| 404 Page Not Found ... ( http://bit.ly/1E66Tn3 )
19:49	asciilifeform	chances are, you are looking at a sputtered surface right now.
19:50	asciilifeform	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OEz_e9C4KM
19:50	assbot	Intro to sputtering (process to create clear, conductive coatings) - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1E6795x )
19:50	pete_dushenski	asciilifeform will watch.
19:50	asciilifeform	^ not my film, but interesting
19:50	menahem	pete_dushenski maintenance contracts - no good ? i love selling them. :)
19:51	pete_dushenski	well... i'm sure you do!
19:52	pete_dushenski	!rate williamdunne 1 responsive and energetic.
19:52	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/a8f4c7444fc61a2f
19:52	menahem	some things need the luv, or they deteriorate. much like buildings, roads, etc. much won't sustain without the maintenance.
19:53	pete_dushenski	!v assbot:pete_dushenski.rate.williamdunne.1:bbe7dc99e44de364bb27d4745e33db2b80fc3d8da77a371c288223af85f3c58b
19:53	assbot	Successfully added a rating of 1 for williamdunne with note: responsive and energetic.
19:53	williamdunne	Thanks Pete
19:54	pete_dushenski	np.
19:56	pete_dushenski	!rate menahem 2 had drinks, had coffee, finally knocked sense into him.
19:56	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/9c7c3a0850fe3681
19:56	pete_dushenski	!v assbot:pete_dushenski.rate.menahem.2:ff2b6568a2919406cdfcef2c2fbd6c6c89985e454a358859584b18a3b7613147
19:56	assbot	Successfully updated the rating for menahem from 1 to 2 with note: had drinks, had coffee, finally knocked sense into him.
19:57	menahem	lol! sense you knocked into me indeed. much appreciated!
19:57	menahem	still doing it. ;)
19:57	pete_dushenski	lol what else am i good for ?
19:57	menahem	well, I read your new poem
19:57	menahem	well, remake of one
19:58	menahem	"If I can keep it together when all and everyone
19:58	menahem	Are losing their cool and hating me,
19:58	menahem	If I can trust my WoT until my time is done,
19:58	menahem	And be the Pete the world requires of me"
		↖
19:59	pete_dushenski	i'm such a rhymer.
19:59	pete_dushenski	me and... me
19:59	pete_dushenski	love to keep going but meatspace beckons.
19:59	pete_dushenski	until next time!
19:59	menahem	lol, love is only increasing ! you being you (and like others in the wot) is bringing out the best in people.. even though they may not realize it this moment.
19:59	menahem	ha, see ya.
20:00	menahem	best = more intelligent
		~ 15 minutes ~
20:16	Naphex	oh wow, just read the news. so bitgo finally popped with the worst mistake they can make?;o
20:16	Naphex	gn.
20:18	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100600 @ 0.00029935 = 30.1146 BTC [+]
20:32	Pierre_Rochard	Naphex: https://np.reddit.com/comments/33u8vq//cqofrit
20:32	assbot	vytah comments on Holy Satoshi! Butter pays 85Btc transaction fees for a 16Btc transaction. Is this the largest fee ever paid? ... ( http://bit.ly/1E6kISv )
20:32	Pierre_Rochard	“Captains of the industry. If they were captains of any other industry, like say for example automotive, we'd have people dying in car crashes between two stationary vehicles."
20:33	Naphex	:D good one!
20:35	trinque	"So what you're saying is that this currency of the future can destroy my savings because of an error and nobody is responsible?" << b-but, who will inforce what's fair?!
20:37	trinque	what is this obsession with making things safe, as though you don't still die in agony at the end?
20:37	trinque	and likely more agony because you fretted about it your whole miserable life
20:38	williamdunne	Responsibility is scary bro
20:42	trinque	Naphex: regarding earlier thread, things such as parsing inputs, putting sensitive data on networks that don't knock knees directly with the web, all great stuff
20:43	Naphex	oh, i tought you hated it
20:43	trinque	not at all; it'd be good not to get personality wrapped up in such discussions too
20:43	trinque	it's just, what would be better than the complex wad we have currently?
20:44	trinque	reading asciilifeform's blog and various excellent threads in the logs would be instructive there
20:44	trinque	I personally do not claim to have the answer, or I'd be typing from it
20:44	Naphex	dude, i was giving my 2 cents on what people can do to harden up
20:45	Naphex	no jimmies rustled. most of that stuff is necessary whenever you have more servers
20:45	Naphex	or have to internal networking
20:45	trinque	mhm
20:46	Naphex	but if you have nothing you will be fucked and quickly
20:46	Naphex	and not by the NSA, by some kid with some scripts
20:46	williamdunne	I just spent 30 minutes trying to work out why the hell my DB connection wasn't working. I was editing the wrong fucking config file.
20:47	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54750 @ 0.00030896 = 16.9156 BTC [+]
20:48	trinque	Naphex: certainly, if one doesn't tape the raft's holes, he'll drown
20:49	Naphex	i see now that the term secure was the problem. how about hardened?
20:50	trinque	I can admire a survivor ingenuity, crafting spears from bamboo and all that
20:50	trinque	no harm in that
20:51	Naphex	well ain't that security?
20:51	scoopbot_revived	News! BitGo Bug Results In Loss Of User Funds By Way Of 85 BTC Fee URL: http://qntra.net/2015/04/bitgo-bug-results-in-loss-of-user-funds-by-way-of-85-btc-fee/
20:51	assbot	BitGo Bug Results In Loss Of User Funds By Way Of 85 BTC Fee \| Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1E6qe7J )
20:52	Naphex	trinque: how would you define perfect security?
20:52	trinque	Naphex: I currently cannot; it would first require being able to model the whole system in my head at once
20:53	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8486 @ 0.00029935 = 2.5403 BTC [-]
20:53	Naphex	so when you say system, how deep/high do we go?
20:55	trinque	Naphex: here's a good example by the way of what can be done with what we have: http://mpex.co/faq.html#18
20:55	trinque	Naphex: as far as what it means to have a fits-in-head system, please do read asciilifeform's material; he's far more qualified to say.
20:57	Naphex	trinque: that's airgapped gpg. you can implement gpg all over. Not sure how much airgapping it helps. A lot of sidechannel attacks comming up nowadays that can grab keys
		↖
20:57	Naphex	local is always a threat as well, no matter where you airgap
20:58	Naphex	having a annonymous ip is dandy. but no way anywhere near as enough. you still have to implement most of the stuff i said above especially the filtering part
20:58	Naphex	to defend from any exposing dos attacks
20:59	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 137900 @ 0.00029076 = 40.0958 BTC [-] {3}
21:00	Naphex	anyway. i'm off. gn
		~ 17 minutes ~
21:18	Pierre_Rochard	williamdunne: had a similar head against wall bug yesterday, in pgsql: to_timestamp(‘2014-2’, ‘YYYY-Q’), doesn’t work because the docs clearly state “quarter (ignored by to_date and to_timestamp)” but it was three hours of desperate refactoring before I actually read them.
		↖
21:18	williamdunne	Its so easy to ignore the most simplistic bugs.. derpage galore.
21:20	Pierre_Rochard	I was outraged because the reason they ignore quarter (and don’t raise an error!) is because there’s no convention as to whether the date should be the beg or end of the quarter. Month, week, etc do the beginning, why not adopt that as the convention!?
21:20	Pierre_Rochard	anyway, lesson learned and appropriate duct tape applied
21:26	williamdunne	Conventions, are, like hard man
21:30	trinque	I'd love a proper emacs mode which could more or less "eldoc" postgresql functions
21:41	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46700 @ 0.00029773 = 13.904 BTC [+] {2}
21:43	williamdunne	Anyone know a decent footnotes plugin for WP?
		↖
21:48	williamdunne	Found one
21:52	cazalla	williamdunne, qntra uses Civil Footnotes
22:05	scoopbot_revived	News! Deloitte: A Bitcoin Successor Is The Future Of Payments URL: http://qntra.net/2015/04/deloitte-a-bitcoin-successor-is-the-future-of-payments/
22:05	assbot	Deloitte: A Bitcoin Successor Is The Future Of Payments \| Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1HG4Bit )
22:05	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 125100 @ 0.00031142 = 38.9586 BTC [+] {3}
22:09	williamdunne	cazalla: Cheers
22:11	decimation	"Mobile payments are a natural extension of the digital lifestyle, while protection against digital theft becomes an imperative for regulatory agencies around the world." < note usg mission creep
22:16	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35250 @ 0.0003083 = 10.8676 BTC [-]
22:21	Pierre_Rochard	^ They should start by securing president hussein’s email
22:21	Pierre_Rochard	but what do I know, I’m just an accountant
22:25	decimation	asciilifeform: http://www.ti.com/tool/tmdxrm46hdk < arm chip with ecc ram (and ecc bus)
22:25	assbot	TMDXRM46HDK Hercules Development Kit - TMDXRM46HDK - TI Tool Folder ... ( http://bit.ly/1PCxNZ0 )
22:26	decimation	Pierre_Rochard: regulatory agencies indeed
22:33	decimation	asciilifeform: http://opencores.org/news,1420039286 < apparently the openMSP430 was used as the basis for an eu-manufactured rad-hard asic microcontroller for space
22:33	assbot	OpenCores ... ( http://bit.ly/1HGaPiw )
22:33	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4150 @ 0.0003083 = 1.2794 BTC [-]
22:34	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 105850 @ 0.00030596 = 32.3859 BTC [-]
22:43	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 73331 @ 0.00031505 = 23.1029 BTC [+]
22:44	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44491 @ 0.00031723 = 14.1139 BTC [+] {2}
22:51	mircea_popescu	lmao
22:51	mircea_popescu	what the fuck is deloitte even
		↖
22:52	mircea_popescu	hmm, anyone kept in touch with that bravetheworld chick ? danielpb1rron ?
22:53	mircea_popescu	Subject: Please, this is not a SPAM. We need your indispensable input on an important digital currency study
22:53	mircea_popescu	From: "Contact Bitgazetteer Team" <contact@bitgazetteer.com>
22:53	mircea_popescu	Date: Sat, April 25, 2015 9:07 pm
22:53	mircea_popescu	Greetings from bitgazetteer.com,
22:53	mircea_popescu	You may elect to opt-out of ongoing e-mail communication from us, by using a simple opt out procedure at the bottom of this email.
22:53	mircea_popescu	dude...srsly ?
22:55	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110745 << i lived in costa rica for a few years, so yeah. but never been much of a coffee drinker, so... whatevs!
22:55	assbot	Logged on 25-04-2015 20:45:01; ben_vulpes: savvy?
22:56	mircea_popescu	;;later tell BayAreaCoins prolly later tonight i'd guess.
22:56	gribble	The operation succeeded.
22:57	mircea_popescu	!up AmbitionzAzARida
22:57	mircea_popescu	!up austeritysucks
22:57	mircea_popescu	!up itkin-
22:57	mircea_popescu	!up maxwell
22:58	mircea_popescu	!up PFate_
22:58	mircea_popescu	!up SirJacket
23:00	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110772 << or, for that matter, http://thewhet.net/2013/your-feelings-are-out-to-get-you/
23:00	assbot	Logged on 25-04-2015 21:16:50; menahem: seeing as everyone is posting their blog love, i did write this today: http://chedr.ca/2015/04/your-emotions-are-irrelevant-and-youve-missed-the-point/ (brings up mircea_popescu 's discussion on RIPple with W3C)
23:00	assbot	Your Feelings are Out to Get You \| The Whet ... ( http://bit.ly/1HGhoBz )
23:03	williamdunne	mircea_popescu: In a couple of days could you make your RSS feed show all bitcoin related articles for an hour or so?
23:03	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110827 << tell me about it.
23:03	assbot	Logged on 25-04-2015 21:56:01; Naphex: trinque: gentoo doesn't even have iptables defaulted, so as soon as his done he'll end up recompiling
23:03	mircea_popescu	i think it does this already.
23:04	mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/category/bitcoin/feed/rss/
23:04	assbot	Trilema » Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1HGijSE )
23:04	williamdunne	Just shows the last 5
23:04	williamdunne	!s library
23:04	assbot	405 results for 'library' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=library
23:04	mircea_popescu	oh
23:04	williamdunne	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1111087
23:04	assbot	Logged on 25-04-2015 23:32:46; pete_dushenski: williamdunne mebbe you could have scoopbot_revived post to a page on your site ?
23:04	mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/category/bitcoin/ shows the lot but i suppose you don't like html cruft ?
23:04	assbot	Bitcoin on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1HGiqNY )
23:05	williamdunne	Hmm I can probably deal with it, I'll take a look
23:07	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110867 << that's what the ruby on rails folk say too
23:07	assbot	Logged on 25-04-2015 22:03:37; Naphex: asciilifeform: applets are applets and security issues are all around. being a good dev implies taking care with deploying your product
23:08	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110883 << ahaha this is a good one
23:08	assbot	Logged on 25-04-2015 22:06:38; asciilifeform: to paraphrase mircea_popescu article, if christ saves in java - let me go straight to hell.
23:10	mircea_popescu	http://www.wotbox.com/bot/ << da fuck is this
23:10	assbot	::: Wotbox ::: Web Crawler ::: ... ( http://bit.ly/1HGjNMz )
23:11	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65600 @ 0.00031871 = 20.9074 BTC [+] {2}
23:12	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110915 << i still think this'd all benefit from a lot more documentation.
23:12	assbot	Logged on 25-04-2015 22:14:03; asciilifeform: Naphex: if you're interested in my concept in particular, see article 'don't blame the mice.'
23:14	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-04-2015#1110943 << but obviously "raw data" is not the only concern. right ?
23:14	assbot	Logged on 25-04-2015 22:28:04; Naphex: anyway, what i was saying is you take steps 'secure' or tape your stuff always, and you don't feed raw data to your apps if you can filter the input beforehand.
23:14	*	asciilifeform raises periscope
23:15	mircea_popescu	how goes alf
23:15	asciilifeform	tired, l0l
23:15	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: this'd all benefit from a lot more documentation << which 'this'
23:15	mircea_popescu	the linked this. "my concept in particular"
23:16	mircea_popescu	;;later tell thebutterzone yo, around ?
23:16	gribble	The operation succeeded.
23:16	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: concept alluded to was 'fits in head.' i suppose this is a good time and place to note that it can be accomplished in three basic ways: a) small system b) big head c) powerful hydraulic press
23:16	asciilifeform	or any combo of above.
23:17	asciilifeform	!up gabriel_laddel
23:17	mircea_popescu	dja see where there's a lot more room for documentation ?
23:17	asciilifeform	certainly
23:17	*	asciilifeform adds 'fits in head' likbez to middle of very long list
23:18	gabriel_laddel	About this "don't feed raw data into your app" and "filtering" nonsense - if you're using a language that isn't complete shit you never need to "filter data" (just communicate in sexprs and (let* ((read-eval nil)) ...))
23:18	asciilifeform	gabriel_laddel has it
23:18	gabriel_laddel	you should not have to parse anything - ever
23:18	gabriel_laddel	if you are parsing, you're doing it wrong
23:19	mircea_popescu	;;later tell sfate hey.
23:19	gribble	The operation succeeded.
23:19	asciilifeform	(will note, for completeness, that this won't fly on, e.g., embedded chip with 32kB. but most of the usual suspects aren't stuck on one such)
23:20	mircea_popescu	gabriel_laddel perhaps you don't appreciate how deep perl goes, or how unaware perl-people are of their perl-ness.
23:20	gabriel_laddel	fuck em?
23:21	gabriel_laddel	I mean literally - steal their bitcoin, hack their bank accounts
23:21	gabriel_laddel	cause chaos
23:21	asciilifeform	'certain languages support serious programmers, and others don't. e.g., I don't think it is at all possible to become a serious programmer using Visual Basic or Perl. if you think hard about what Perl code will do on the borders of the known input space, your head will explode. if you write Perl code to handle input problems gracefully, your programs will become gargantuan: the normal failure mode is to terminate with no id
		↖
23:21	asciilifeform	ea how far into the process you got or how much of an incomplete task was actually performed. in my view, serious programmers don't deal with tools that _force_ them to hope everything works.' -- herr naggum who else
23:21	mircea_popescu	i think the female reproductive system runs on perl.
23:21	mircea_popescu	what now ?
23:21	trinque	lotta derps out there that can be taught to better themselves.
23:22	trinque	I'm fucking 28 and learning CL now
23:24	mircea_popescu	i see nobody wishes to engage the cunt problem. but yes, IT DOES RUN ON PERL.
		↖
23:24	mircea_popescu	and here we are.
23:25	gabriel_laddel	in what sense? that it'll accept all sorts of odd inputs?
23:25	Pierre_Rochard	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=26-04-2015#1111248 < my former employer, was a great firm pre-1930, now just an extension of USG
23:25	assbot	Logged on 26-04-2015 02:51:20; mircea_popescu: what the fuck is deloitte even
23:25	mircea_popescu	gabriel_laddel how familiar with the process are you ? like, for instance, the simple (lol) ShouldAbort() function ?
23:26	mircea_popescu	Pierre_Rochard i suppose it's the next head on the chopping block after AA.
23:26	gabriel_laddel	I've had sex with a female if that's what you're asking.
23:26	mircea_popescu	not at all.
23:26	mircea_popescu	think about it : foetuses are sometimes aborted. on the basis of reasons.
23:26	mircea_popescu	when ? why ?
23:26	Pierre_Rochard	nah they’re too big to fail now, see http://www.forbes.com/sites/antoinegara/2015/04/15/ernst-young-settles-new-york-lehman-brothers-repo-105-deals/
23:26	assbot	Ernst & Young Settles With New York Over Lehman Brothers Repo 105 Deals - Forbes ... ( http://bit.ly/1HGnlP0 )
23:27	mircea_popescu	pure perl.
23:27	mircea_popescu	Pierre_Rochard from what i see (and from what i know of these systems) there's periodically going to be a beheading.
23:27	*	asciilifeform tries to picture a variant where 'where, why' is accessible
23:27	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform it is, you can measure a lot about a pregnancy.,
23:27	gabriel_laddel	you're talking about the women in question purposefully aborting her pregnancy?
23:27	asciilifeform	- with instruments
23:27	gabriel_laddel	or miscarriage?
23:28	mircea_popescu	gabriel_laddel no, no, we're talking about the reproductive system itself.
23:28	asciilifeform	sure, fella with microscope can sometimes say why eject button got pressed
23:28	asciilifeform	but that isn't negating the 'perliness' of the basic apparatus, no ?
23:28	mircea_popescu	gabriel_laddel trisomies are usually aborted. spina bifida usually not. etc.
23:28	mircea_popescu	make sense of it, nobel prize is yours.
23:28	gabriel_laddel	yeah, I don't see the analogy to perl
23:29	mircea_popescu	really ?!
23:29	trinque	that nature is filthy hacks upon hacks?
23:29	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: pretty sure the example you cited is immunological
23:29	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform maybe.
23:29	Pierre_Rochard	mircea_popescu: they created PCAOB - para-govt auditor of auditors - to avoid beheadings and only chop off fingers/toes. Beheadings will have to come exogenously. For log, background on lehman accounting fraud: http://drillingthrough.com/lehman/
23:29	assbot	Lehman, E&Y, and Repo 105 \| Drilling Through ... ( http://bit.ly/1HGnPEP )
23:29	asciilifeform	(trisomies trigger tumour response)
23:29	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform some of them do.
23:29	gabriel_laddel	the reason we build abstract machines is because people are not very good at repetitive tasks.
23:29	mircea_popescu	iirc they proved some of them actually abord through some oxygenation pathway
23:29	mircea_popescu	gabriel_laddel this is cells.
23:30	mircea_popescu	cells are automatons.
23:30	gabriel_laddel	yes...?
23:30	mircea_popescu	humans don't enter into it, at that level.
23:30	gabriel_laddel	people are machines - but computer programs are not people, nor cells.
23:30	mircea_popescu	and it's perl for exactly the specified reason, " the normal failure mode is to terminate with no idea how far into the process you got or how much of an incomplete task was actually performed"
23:30	gabriel_laddel	we know how to write computer programs such that you don't need regexes.
23:30	gabriel_laddel	if you're /ever/ using them, you're doing it wrong.
23:30	mircea_popescu	many more similarities (like a pointed lack of sexprs), but let's keep it simple
23:31	mircea_popescu	so you're saying cunts are doing it wrong.
23:31	asciilifeform	gabriel_laddel: basic idea, perhaps, is that systems designed 'step at a time' by 'practical types' without any clear line of reason - will converge to resemble meat.
23:31	asciilifeform	as per l. lamport's essay
23:31	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform no, idea is that some people who can't even make dragonfly are in a weak position to teach grandmother to suck eggs, as it were.
23:31	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30000 @ 0.00031795 = 9.5385 BTC [-]
23:32	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: if we get the stochasticity of meat, we also need to have the wide functional state space of meat.
23:32	asciilifeform	one without the other - is drowning in shit.
23:32	mircea_popescu	that may be. i'm just pointing out that biology offers a very significant challenge to theoretical cs.
23:32	mircea_popescu	in the perl aspect of things.
23:32	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49650 @ 0.0003198 = 15.8781 BTC [+]
23:32	gabriel_laddel	This conversation bothers me. We don't understand how to make dragonflies, nor how the reproductive system works. We know how to write computer programs that work - the failing to do the latter correctly is a human failing.
23:33	mircea_popescu	is it ?
23:33	gabriel_laddel	analogy need not enter into the conversation
23:33	gabriel_laddel	it isn't necessary.
23:33	mircea_popescu	generally when an analogy need not enter into a conversation, it's a sign the conversation's broken.
23:33	gabriel_laddel	der fucking nonsense.
23:33	mircea_popescu	and mind you, at issue is not whether we do or don't understand how reproduction works.
23:34	mircea_popescu	at issue is that we understand enough to know it runs on perl.
23:34	mircea_popescu	which means that as long as you live, you will not live in a clean world.
23:34	gabriel_laddel	It doesn't run on "perl" "perl" is a well specified computer program. Meat runs another separate well specified meat program.
23:35	gabriel_laddel	which means that as long as you live, you will not live in a clean world. << select portions of humanity have, to varying degrees created "clean" computing.
23:35	mircea_popescu	take the simple fact that erycridine lactate induces abortion in any trimester, and without exception. if this isn't a regex gone wrong, what is ?
23:36	mircea_popescu	ethacridine*
23:36	gabriel_laddel	regexes are regexes - nothing elese is.
23:37	gabriel_laddel	not everything is the same thing.
23:37	mircea_popescu	(and if it were so well specified, we'd prolly know a lot more of it than we do)
23:37	mircea_popescu	so you dispute that there's ready biologic equivalents of a regexp match ?
23:38	mircea_popescu	you are aware organic molecules are actual strings.
23:38	gabriel_laddel	I wouldn't dare draw that equivalence without agreeing on a formal definition for regexes and the process in question.
23:38	mircea_popescu	how do you define a string ?
23:39	mircea_popescu	(this, incidentally, would be the lisp/perl difference imo. lisp does not have strings, perl does not have sexprs. in spite of pretending on each side)
23:40	gabriel_laddel	wtf is this. lisp doesn't have strings?
23:40	mircea_popescu	if you think about it, you said so yourself. "if you're /ever/ using them, you're doing it wrong."
23:41	gabriel_laddel	my first pass at a definition for a string: A string is a collection of characters from an alphabet.
23:41	mircea_popescu	organic molecules pass this.
23:41	gabriel_laddel	nah - if you're using regexes you're doing it wrong.
23:41	mircea_popescu	that's what strings are. "stuff you use regexps on"
23:41	gabriel_laddel	nonsense.
23:41	gabriel_laddel	I use strings all the time, don't use regexes
23:41	mircea_popescu	you're using fake lisp strings.
23:42	mircea_popescu	perl people think they're using "structured data" too.
23:42	mircea_popescu	it's all strings, but w/e.
23:42	gabriel_laddel	they can't do tree traversals on their "structured data"
23:42	mircea_popescu	exaclty.
23:42	gabriel_laddel	therefore they suck c0cks
23:42	mircea_popescu	and you can't do regexp on your "Strings"
23:42	mircea_popescu	therefore...
23:42	gabriel_laddel	ah, but I can
23:42	mircea_popescu	well, "can".
23:42	gabriel_laddel	I don't because it's stupid
23:42	mircea_popescu	right.
23:42	mircea_popescu	why do you think THEY don't ?
23:43	gabriel_laddel	because they're mentally defective
23:43	mircea_popescu	obviously.
23:43	gabriel_laddel	(I'm assuming you're saying "why don't you think they don't - do tree traversals")
23:43	mircea_popescu	right.
23:43	gabriel_laddel	I should note that "they" (algol programmers) try to add the tree traversal properties of lisp to their languages
23:44	gabriel_laddel	in every single language
23:44	mircea_popescu	so ?
23:44	gabriel_laddel	they all have failed, and will continue to fail
23:44	gabriel_laddel	so they waste a lot of effort doing it.
23:44	*	mircea_popescu gets a "so ?" gold on black cardboard card
23:45	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39250 @ 0.00032074 = 12.589 BTC [+] {3}
23:45	decimation	did I just stumble into an ongoing turing test?
23:45	gabriel_laddel	this conversation is going in the direction of "heat death of the universe" so I'll note that companies that use e.g., scala have to hire a lot of people to regin in the complexity inherrent in ALGOL.
23:45	mircea_popescu	decimation nah, i'm just being unreasonably heterodox over here.
23:45	gabriel_laddel	hence, they waste money
23:45	mircea_popescu	gabriel_laddel this is a very minor point. the chief point, still standing, is that cunts still run on perl. there must be a reason for this.
23:45	gabriel_laddel	hence they'll be beaten in the marketplace by yours truly.
23:46	mircea_popescu	but even if there isn't a reason for this : it's so deeply baked into the structure of the world, you'll never be free of it.
23:46	gabriel_laddel	and...?
23:46	mircea_popescu	(because cunts obviously aren't free to choose what they use, so the need for perl must be way deeper than that)
23:46	mircea_popescu	that's all, no more.
23:46	gabriel_laddel	You'll never be entirely free of idiots
23:46	gabriel_laddel	that doesn't mean I should stop "butchering slugs"
23:46	decimation	how can anyone even make statements about what the female reproductive/baby system is doing without examining the results in each case, in molecular detail?
23:47	mircea_popescu	hey, splay that slit! no argument here.
23:47	gabriel_laddel	what aesthetic do you wish to live in?
23:47	trinque	fast and loose is fine if the product is somewhat disposable?
23:47	mircea_popescu	decimation enough to say "it's doing regexp"
23:47	mircea_popescu	trinque except the product of reproduction is perhaps the most expensive thing there is
23:47	mircea_popescu	if you look in the proper context.
23:47	gabriel_laddel	mircea_popescu: oh, btw thanks for your input on my document
23:47	trinque	yes, very expensive to the host body while it's being made
23:47	mircea_popescu	exactly.
23:47	mircea_popescu	gabriel_laddel sure. which was this ?
23:48	gabriel_laddel	I ended up trolling through gov. documents on the yucca mountain facility (I had previously quoted wikipedia)
23:48	mircea_popescu	!up gabriel_laddel
23:48	gabriel_laddel	anyways, I ran across lots of juicy information.
23:48	mircea_popescu	;;gettrust assbot gabriel_laddel
23:48	gribble	WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user assbot to user gabriel_laddel: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=gabriel_laddel \| WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=gabriel_laddel \| Rated since: Sun Aug 3 11:48:26 2014
23:48	decimation	yucca mountain was a terrible idea, in the sense that storing nuclear waste instead of recycling it into fissile Pu is retarded
23:48	mircea_popescu	!gettrust assbot gabriel_laddel
23:48	assbot	Trust relationship from user assbot to user gabriel_laddel: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 2 via 2 connections. \|http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=assbot&to=gabriel_laddel \| http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/gabriel_laddel/
23:49	gabriel_laddel	decimation: well, now it is sitting on-site at the 100 reactor sites across the US
23:49	mircea_popescu	that whole yucca mountain thing...
23:49	gabriel_laddel	in "temporary storage"
23:49	gabriel_laddel	forever
23:49	trinque	mircea_popescu: seems like systems where there are a variety of ways to solve problems accept that they don't know the "perfect" way, if there is one
23:50	trinque	assuming lack of perfect knowledge having multiple things to try seems appropriate
23:50	decimation	mainly because jimmy carter banned recycling because it contained the word 'plutonium'
23:50	mircea_popescu	trinque the main problem here is that for a large number of solid considerations, lisp would actually be a much better choice. moreover, the space alf referred to is indeed vast, but the processes narrow. in many spots the whole tree converges to a very very narrow bottleneck.
23:50	asciilifeform	<mircea_popescu> that may be. i'm just pointing out that biology offers a very significant challenge to theoretical cs. << i must confess, that i am at a loss as to which aspects of meat we should like to replicate in machines: intransigence? toe fungus? pneumonia? schizophrenia?
		↖
23:50	asciilifeform	seems like we've achieved a great many of these, in the computer...
23:51	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i wasn't going nearly as far as any of that.
23:51	mircea_popescu	trinque consider the ridiculous happenstance that all foeti have a god damned lizard tail two weeks in.
23:51	trinque	mhm, and gills at some point, or proto-gills
23:52	trinque	little blockchains themselves
23:52	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38360 @ 0.00030596 = 11.7366 BTC [-]
23:52	trinque	the whole of evolution unfolding each time
23:52	mircea_popescu	not ~quite~
23:52	mircea_popescu	broadly speaking, but that's all.
23:53	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: ... there must be a reason for this. << same reason eagle doesn't have jet with afterburner in his arse
23:53	mircea_popescu	is it ?
23:53	mircea_popescu	anyway i should like to see a schizo computer.
23:54	mircea_popescu	could be punishment for the usg twerps. "you now have to program on this"
23:54	trinque	I wonder if we'd have done the one with the afterburner having never seen a bird
23:54	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: it's so deeply baked into the structure of the world, you'll never be free of it. << johnson noise, shot noise, etc. are intrinsic to electrical circuit. yet we have to sweat and build whole other box to get pc to cough up random bits.
23:54	mircea_popescu	trinque nah, it's not energetically efficient. try and power the jet off the bird's diet.
23:54	asciilifeform	because designers did practically nuke the analogue soup. (yes, ram failures, etc. exist.)
23:55	mircea_popescu	i have no doubt you have still hope alf :)
23:56	trinque	mircea_popescu: right, so we're talking about the difference between systems which try to be general solutions to (not sure how to articulate it) vs specific tools which live in a given niche?
23:56	trinque	tools vs general meta-tools or something
23:56	mircea_popescu	im not even sure.
23:56	trinque	me either, lol
23:57	asciilifeform	i just can't help but recall kreinin's piece re: how folks who are asking for meat-like architecture 'whether they want a tool, or electronic best friend or sex partner' and asked whether 'they had tried the selection of naturally-occurring ones first'
23:57	mircea_popescu	mind that i am not proposing any change here.
23:57	mircea_popescu	i am merely pointing out that the perl-bashing has some serious problems in front of it.
23:58	trinque	converation with my biz partner comes to mind where he praised this old DOS point of sale
23:58	asciilifeform	nature's criterion of 'works' and mine, i will say, are not at all alike.
23:58	trinque	he could enter things like i 52345 s <ent> 3 <ent> and that would add inventory number whatever to the ticket 2 times
23:59	asciilifeform	i don't want to buy the office chair that is successful in cheaply making infinite copies of itself into the aeons. not unless it also parks my arse well.
23:59	trinque	and he still claims he's faster on that than any micros shit, ncr, or even more "modern" UI
23:59	asciilifeform	trinque: this is not a difficult standard to achieve
23:59	trinque	sure
23:59	trinque	but you could then go "oh but this is not a general interface with concepts applicable to any UI"
23:59	trinque	or something

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