Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2022-07-11 | 2022-07-13 → ↓
00:27 vex there's a little bit of lost highway there somewhere
~ 19 minutes ~
00:47 vex lynchesque fibs and laura palmer. this is cinematic tv
00:50 vex i'll need to consult shinohai before I read rolling stone, or the other fishwrap. communicatiobns degree indeed
01:03 vex stupis usually misses the point
01:04 vex spoiler alert, you've had enough time
01:07 vex saul e608 is poised with potential, truth be told, it's tense as fuck
01:09 vex It might be happenstance that it lands the same day that CZ takes .fr really who gives a shit
01:11 vex the happenings are in a german built bunker. who will escape?
01:21 vex do we like saul less? what is he up to? do we like kim more? would she do it?
01:25 vex from my perspective, it's a resounding yay on both counts
01:26 vex Saul gave Kim her freedom, but he knew she would. It's heavy shit
01:29 vex they didn't have time to talk, all she knew was "go blast a cunt"
01:39 vex we know saul survives.
01:45 vex kim wexler is hot. she goes to blast
01:46 vex can she get any hotter?
01:49 vex actress is shuddering prcisely
01:52 vex how I imagine hanbot watched mp drown
01:53 vex pure fear
~ 15 minutes ~
02:09 vex I hope she's okay, that kinda shit will fuck a person up
02:15 vex for a widow with a well found five series and recent fake tits, she's prolly doing okay
02:16 vex ie clevererer than most
02:19 vex nope. prolly still crying. my heart hurts
02:23 vex it's too much crying for a smol girl. I can't do anyhting to help
~ 15 minutes ~
02:38 vex unless you wanna be a bottle blonde. buy a case of vintage bollinger.
02:43 vex I tan my hides with once drunk bollinger
02:43 vex it's the ammonia in it that does it
02:46 vex well. victoria bitter
02:46 vex I don't get meat often, but I save the skins
02:47 vex I'm pretty much vegan
02:50 vex If I accidentially a roo, I take the skin, not plop the whole beast on a fire
02:51 vex rootail soup is best without fur
02:52 vex vegan chicks love it
02:54 vex did you really accident the beast vex? yep no guns
02:58 vex I guess it's okay hten
02:59 vex r u hungry? yes? it's okay
03:08 vex now, go gring the useless bits to keep for salami
03:08 vex just poke it in there and crank the handle
03:11 vex why is the girinder bloted to such a low bench vex?
03:15 vex fairytales is all
03:20 vex I'm just trying to lick your butthole
03:21 vex basically vegan
03:26 vex eek. racoons
~ 4 hours 49 minutes ~
08:15 vex cdd, I was going to leave you a geocache, but brisbane is really far
08:16 vex I lived there for a time, I'd wake up and stroll the city after a special breakfast muffin, quite convinced it was gotham
08:18 vex i'm not sure how well you know the place, but if you care to stroll over the brigde, I'll tell you where I would have left it
08:18 vex charlotte st, the second hand bookshop
08:21 vex what a library. towering shelves invite you to walk whispering, lest the old groaning floorboard fold you into a mess
08:21 vex evrything is for sale
08:22 vex I've spent hours in there reading, scared to move
08:26 vex eek. why are there even racoon here?
08:29 asciilifeform lolwat.
~ 1 hours 12 minutes ~
09:42 cgra asciilifeform: did you still have this idea that separate pest nets ought to be able to join?
09:46 cgra asciilifeform: another q, what was the 'long buffer' for again? why not just always check the 'very long buffer', (tm)(r) jonsykkel?
~ 23 minutes ~
10:09 asciilifeform wb cgra
10:10 asciilifeform cgra: indeed separate pestnets can be joined if at least 1 peer from each form a mutual peering.
10:10 asciilifeform cgra: 'long buffer' is simply the subset of the 'very long buffer' that is guaranteed to live in memory and can be used for fast deduping.
10:11 asciilifeform see also.
10:11 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-20 13:59:15 asciilifeform: if an arbitrary packet can force you to access disk, yer sunk
10:18 asciilifeform if a message was received at some point, but aint stale yet, it absolutely must be kept in memory, for deduping.
10:18 asciilifeform per current spec, for 1h (to account for whatever degree of clock skew, plus healthy margin)
10:26 cgra asciilifeform: in replay scenario, doesn't the 15 min timestamp margin limit the disk access, so that the queried entries are ~always in cache, and no actual disk access caused?
↖
10:34 cgra asciilifeform: if two pest nets join, they're going to cross-sync their histories and end up having two separate branches. if somebody was part of both nets, but separately, he's now going to have two 'genesis messages', one from each net. correct?
10:38 cgra another, related consideration: doesn't getdata as now specced, allow retroactive selfchain fork? feed new branch backwards, starting from the last of the chain, which meets the 'not-stale' requirement
↖
10:42 cgra now, if selfchain forks are allowed, prod seems to have a problem: how to sync the possible loose ends? should apply to the joint nets case too
10:55 asciilifeform cgra: the selfchain thing resolves to the 'bob problem' ( i.e. handle collision. still unresolved, tho asciilifeform proposed a hypothetical pill . )
10:55 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-06 14:07:36 asciilifeform: phf: and when 2+ nets merge, and this produces a handle collison ? (aka the 'bob' problem)
10:55 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-08 11:34:35 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-08#1100576 << asciilifeform posted a solution, of sorts
10:56 asciilifeform cgra: netchains will converge, however, when the participants of the joint net finally see same thing
10:58 asciilifeform cgra: when 2+ nets merge, each will see the history of the other as a long thread (in hypothetical thread-view pestron) in the past
10:59 asciilifeform 1 tricky moment is that they'll have conflicting 'genesis' msg.
11:00 asciilifeform (where netchain == 0)
11:00 asciilifeform cgra thimbronion et al ^ does need thought
11:00 asciilifeform 1 'solution' is to simply prohibit getdata(0).
11:00 asciilifeform unsatisfying tho.
11:01 asciilifeform tho come to think of it already prohibited (there aint a msg which hashes to 0)
11:01 asciilifeform so actually scratch that, this problem dun actually exist.
↖
11:02 asciilifeform cgra: if asciilifeform misses sumthing, plox to point out.
11:07 whaack !w poll
11:07 watchglass Polling 15 nodes...
11:07 watchglass 54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.111s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=744698
11:07 watchglass 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.143s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=744698
11:07 watchglass 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.141s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=744698
11:07 watchglass 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.084s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=744698 (Operator: whaack)
11:07 watchglass 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.145s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=744698 (Operator: asciilifeform)
11:07 watchglass 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.209s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=744698
11:07 watchglass 54.38.94.63:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.263s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=744698
11:07 watchglass 94.176.238.102:8333 : (2ppf.s.time4vps.cloud) Alive: (0.311s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=744698
11:07 watchglass 82.79.58.192:8333 : (static-82-79-58-192.rdsnet.ro) Alive: (0.391s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=744698
11:07 watchglass 103.6.212.28:8333 : Alive: (0.546s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=744668 (Operator: whaack)
11:07 watchglass 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.572s) V=99999 (/jwrd.net:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=744698
11:07 watchglass 75.106.222.93:8333 : Could not connect!
11:09 watchglass 71.191.220.241:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.) (Operator: asciilifeform)
11:09 watchglass 143.202.160.10:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
11:09 watchglass 205.134.172.6:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
11:13 cgra asciilifeform: any comment re prod and loose chain ends?
11:19 cgra asciilifeform: if multiple genesis messages are allowed, then prolly otherwise retroactively injected selfchains must be allowed too?
11:19 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-12 11:01:35 asciilifeform: so actually scratch that, this problem dun actually exist.
11:19 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-12 10:38:05 cgra: another, related consideration: doesn't getdata as now specced, allow retroactive selfchain fork? feed new branch backwards, starting from the last of the chain, which meets the 'not-stale' requirement
11:20 cgra and not just genesis messages, any retroactive forks like ^
11:23 asciilifeform cgra: hypothetically yes, 'prod' can contain arbitrary values for the chains. per current spec the recipient will getdata for'em and store whatever it gets.
11:24 asciilifeform for netchain , you want to be able to do this . for selfchain, not, but to properly prohibit it would have to solve the handle uniqueness problem, 'which prong of fork is genuine' resolves to it
11:33 cgra asciilifeform: in other words, is this correct: 1) netchain forks are desirable, but selfchain forks not. 2) multiple selfchain genesises desirable only if for a good reason (like joint nets). 3) while selfchain forks and excess genesises not desirable, difficult to prevent, so perhaps better to just tolerate
11:33 asciilifeform cgra: correct
11:34 asciilifeform btw per current spec, no effort to 'prevent' selfchain forks, only to mark'em
11:34 asciilifeform (they will inevitably occur, if only when sumbody blows a disk and sets up station from scratch)
11:38 cgra asciilifeform: any comment re 'long buffer portion being cached anyway'?
11:38 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-12 10:26:06 cgra: asciilifeform: in replay scenario, doesn't the 15 min timestamp margin limit the disk access, so that the queried entries are ~always in cache, and no actual disk access caused?
11:38 asciilifeform cgra: can't rely on external caches.
11:39 asciilifeform there's no guarantee that past hr will in fact be entirely in such a cache (or that a cache even exists)
11:39 asciilifeform hence mandated to exist in pestron.
11:40 asciilifeform because incoming packet (which may be a replayed dupe by attacker) MAY NOT result in mandatory disk access.
11:40 asciilifeform will also point out, pestron is specced in such a way as to make sense for implementation without os.
11:40 asciilifeform (or even in iron)
11:41 asciilifeform spec aims to describe the logic without reference to complex external moving parts (disk caches, etc) which may not be standardized or even exist on a given machine.
11:42 cgra ok, makes sense
11:42 asciilifeform np
11:44 cgra imo the long buffer desc could use similar explanation
11:44 asciilifeform defo
11:45 * asciilifeform will add note in next rev
11:45 * asciilifeform encourages cgra et al to write in whenever 'hmm wtf is this, wai' in spec
11:48 cgra asciilifeform: how's your 'hevea' rewrite getting along?
11:49 asciilifeform cgra: veery slowly
11:49 cgra asciilifeform: aiming for cool diagrams and all?
11:49 * asciilifeform tightly in the grip of meatspace chores atm
11:49 asciilifeform cgra: eventually yes
11:49 asciilifeform cgra: tried to port 'bytefield' to heveaism, 1st try broke teeth
11:53 asciilifeform ( yes, ~could~ shit'em to bitmaps, but then won't have clickable links in the packet diagrams ! )
11:54 asciilifeform soo arguably hevea dun actually solve the 'hey asciilifeform , want a civilized spec? go and fight with 10,000 lol of liquishit for next yr' )
11:54 asciilifeform *loc
11:55 asciilifeform ( 'civilized spec' non-negotiably means, ftr, 1) fully hypertext for www 2) fully formatted printer-friendly pdf/ps for printer 3) NO separate maintenance for 1 and 2, generated from ~one~ src )
11:56 cgra right
12:03 cgra asciilifeform: if you go by the current spec draft letter, doesn't the order buffer necessarily always release the newly synced chain segment backwards, from newest to oldest? obv though, can't help out-of-orderism if sync takes longer than 5min, the order buffer timeout
12:04 asciilifeform cgra: not obviously so: 'At any time when the Order Buffer is non-empty, the station will schedule the continued processing of the oldest packet found there, to be executed Tw seconds following the Time at which said message was received.'
12:04 asciilifeform ... and when it connects to the known chain, whole thing gets shot out
12:05 asciilifeform oughta specify the eviction order tho
12:05 cgra ah, ^ mention prolly missing
12:05 asciilifeform that whole section needs serious massage.
12:06 cgra currently afaik only said way out of order buffer is the timeout
12:06 asciilifeform lolyes
12:06 * asciilifeform wonders whether thimbronion implemented this literally as-written, hence the wild delays on dulapbot's end
12:08 cgra side note: upon a handful of first spec reads, i found 'long buffer' and 'short buffer' didn't stick as well as perhaps smth like 'dedup buffer' or 'embargo buffer' would've
12:08 * asciilifeform noted
12:13 cgra similarly all the two-letter symbols. perhaps helped with added explanation, or symbol length, or increased consistency. for consistency example, the "T" in "Tw" means point in time, while "T" in "Te" means duration. maybe "Dt" or "It" instead (I as in 'interval')?
12:13 asciilifeform aha
12:13 asciilifeform these need an index, too
12:14 * asciilifeform given up on the 'markdown' turd, is impossible to fucking change ANYTHING without rewriting half the refs
12:14 cgra obviously a rough draft still, for N next revisions, and understandably
12:14 asciilifeform in current spec, order of sections is also riotously nonsensical
12:14 asciilifeform again because impossible to move anyffin without rewriting, tediously, over9000 links
12:14 asciilifeform and section #s
12:15 cgra right
12:16 thimbronion asciilifeform: did my best to implement the spec literally as written, but, perhaps you might find this interesting: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-11#1009305
12:16 bitbot (pest) 2022-07-11 awt[billymg|signpost]: for bots, setting order_buffer_check_seconds and order_buffer_expiration_seconds to like 10 should speed things up quite a bit.
12:17 asciilifeform thimbronion: aha, but cgra did find laughable omission in spec ( asciilifeform didn't actually remember to say 'and when the chain links up, whatever in the buffer that linked up with it is evicted in order' )
12:18 * signpost just about to test thimbronion's suggestion on deedbot btw
12:18 thimbronion asciilifeform: ah gotcha. Yeah in blatta items are evicted by timestamp.
~ 1 hours 38 minutes ~
13:57 asciilifeform cgra: thinking about it, there's nuffin particularly unpleasant re having 2+ netchain genesis. but imho in a dedicated client they oughta be displayed chronologically (by timestamp).
13:58 asciilifeform (and in fact any msg with netchain==0 oughta be displayed where its timestamp places it.)
13:59 asciilifeform hypothetically this means that a member of a pestnet could 'litter' the past. easily visible to naked eye tho, when it happens, and you can whack him over the head if need be.
13:59 asciilifeform (and the 'past' he can litter is -15min max, lol)
14:12 asciilifeform ^ thinking further, potentially in -inf, if via chain of getdata
14:13 cgra asciilifeform: yea was just about to point out ^
14:13 asciilifeform at any rate visible to participants if happens
14:14 asciilifeform this kinda thing is properly categorized as spamming
14:14 cgra only now noticed you said 'netchain' there, was still in 'selfchain' thinking mode
14:14 asciilifeform correct
14:16 asciilifeform a retro-fork of selfchain oughta be handled in precisely same way as a realtime fork of same (currently -- by marking)
14:17 asciilifeform if the participants with colliding nicks aint trying to 'misbehave', this actually makes ~easier~ merging 2+ nets with a colliding nick
14:17 cgra is there any good reason for selfchain fork?
14:17 asciilifeform (the main headache there is when someone is deliberately impersonating)
14:18 cgra (and not counting multiple genesis messages as fork)
14:18 asciilifeform cgra: the most common cases, asciilifeform expects, would be 1) someone loses his state 2) merge of nets with colliding handles
14:18 asciilifeform a then (2)
14:18 cgra asciilifeform: you mean (1)?
14:19 asciilifeform and hm this does need to be illuminated in spec ( the fact that 2 parallel chains with colliding handle also constitutes a fork )
14:19 asciilifeform cgra: (1) and (2) both will give multiple genesis
14:19 cgra asciilifeform: but (1) only good explanation for selfchain fork?
14:20 asciilifeform depends what means 'good explanation'
14:20 cgra asciilifeform: no funny business
14:20 asciilifeform what meant above is that 2 commonplace situations not involving deliberate sabotage will give something other than an intact chain with unique handle
14:21 asciilifeform (not including temporary gaps from packet loss here)
14:21 asciilifeform *a single intact chain
14:22 asciilifeform btw asciilifeform had notion, where in a dedicated 'gui' pestron, could display 'hash icons' which include chain info in the hash and give visible indicator of chain breakage/split
14:22 asciilifeform (a la wp's auto-genned username+email icons)
14:22 cgra i'm trying to isolate a branching selfchain as a condemnable situation vs >1 parallel chains
14:23 asciilifeform a makes sense
14:23 asciilifeform branching means that you have a wrecker. (or a fool who config'd two separate stations to use one key)
14:23 cgra and branch is reliably detectable
14:24 asciilifeform correct
~ 59 minutes ~
15:23 thimbronion I wonder if the more likely event will not be merges but splits.
15:34 asciilifeform thimbronion: likely; but splits dun pose any interesting algorithmic problems afaik.
15:35 asciilifeform ( unless/until the split parties, or some subset thereof, reunite )
← 2022-07-11 | 2022-07-13 → ↑

Random(asciilifeform) | Download hourly DB snapshot | Get Source Code

Theme: Light | Dark | System Default