Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2022-06-06 | 2022-06-08 → ↓
05:02 scoopbot New article on A Syndication of Verisimilitudes: Linking Sentinels
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~ 38 minutes ~
05:41 vex a particular person's been perplexed with a plethora of particular preponderances pretending to previous pooftas
05:41 vex verily verisimilitude
05:53 vex I wanna send the guy a book for his shelf. is it better to p2p the warez?
05:55 vex spines on the shelf become somewhat overbearing after n>toomuch
05:56 verisimilitude s/pretending/pertaining/
05:56 verisimilitude I'm fine, vex.
05:57 vex dang, i'll pretend i meant to write pretend
05:59 vex doeth dulap support dcc?
06:01 vex perhpas you can reccommend a book for me verisimilitude ?
06:03 verisimilitude Recommended Reading: ``Alan Turing's Electronic Brain''
06:09 vex you know what, that's not here. an oversight. i'll look into it
06:09 verisimilitude I've already read it, vex
06:09 verisimilitude .
06:10 vex Obviously
06:11 verisimilitude I wanted there to be no confusion about sending anything to me.
06:11 vex Never without your permission
06:12 vex I might be an asshole ocassionally, but never a fuckhead
06:13 verisimilitude I've disabled DCC anyway.
06:17 vex wait no, i'm definately a fuckhead too. rarely hypocrite
06:25 vex songs mp hasn't heard for 200. what is seth sentry castlevania
06:31 vex from the same album `cabin fever' including genius lyrics liek "spilling more seed than michael j fox attafuckin' parrot feeder"
~ 19 minutes ~
06:51 vex there's cat people, and dog people, then there's horse people. most cat people have only a cat
06:51 vex most horse people have a horse and a dog and a cat
06:52 vex some horse people are very intelligent
06:56 vex we could infer from my hypothesis that different people act differtly
07:03 vex https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuYjlYz7NfQ lolcats feature here
07:13 vex yassou punkman
07:16 punkman gm
07:16 punkman https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1ss24a6
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07:20 vex cool shit. everything i've ever said on telegram is super spic
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07:20 vex epic
07:21 vex stop looking at my cortez
~ 16 minutes ~
07:37 vex don't steal my shoe. proti[
07:39 vex kayboard wronguns know hat I mean
07:43 vex https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ejga4kJUts no knifey spooney with me verisimilitude
~ 3 hours 32 minutes ~
11:15 shinohai http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-07#1105005 << I'll kek heartily if this turns out to contain malware that drains "crypto" wallets.
11:15 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-07 03:16:09 punkman: https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1ss24a6
~ 2 hours 40 minutes ~
13:55 * asciilifeform remembers the long-gone era when was actually worthwhile to write trojans which lift wallets, i.e. when microshit victims still had sumthing to lift
14:02 shinohai Far simpler now to just pwn browser since folx enjoy storing over9000 tokens in metamask wallet (not that majority worth the time).
~ 54 minutes ~
14:56 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-07#1104976 >> 'There's almost always a single link which may be used safely, that link to itself.' << annoying if you need to move the thing elsewhere in memory
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14:56 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-07 01:02:37 scoopbot: New article on A Syndication of Verisimilitudes: Linking Sentinels
14:57 asciilifeform verisimilitude: is 1 reason wai the lispm people had a dedicated 'nil'
15:00 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-07#1105006 << wtf is the point of these ? ( asciilifeform not used 'telegram' or similar aol-style chats in many many yrs , doesn't miss'em )
15:00 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-07 03:20:02 vex: cool shit. everything i've ever said on telegram is super spic
15:00 phf asciilifeform: for friends who are not on the spectrum
15:01 thimbronion telegram users usually still somewhat on spectrum. those off the spectrum entirely can be found on whatsapp.
15:01 asciilifeform many of these aols considerably, afaik, moar complicated to run than irc...
15:02 asciilifeform and with all kindsa odd misfeatures
15:02 phf thimbronion: that's a us centric perspective
15:02 asciilifeform ( does twatter still cap msg to 128bytes? )
15:02 thimbronion phf - I see - perhaps western hemisphere thing
15:03 thimbronion or north/south america thing
15:03 phf thimbronion: yeah, eastern europe is significantly telegram oriented, but in u.s. e.g. edgy zoomers do telegram because "putin with balalayka"
15:04 asciilifeform phf: asciilifeform not used 'telega'; is it effectively same 'aol' ? or has some interesting orc-specific feature ?
15:05 * asciilifeform recalls shinohai's experiments with pest on pnoje. theoretically could have a working pestron on pnoje, and with e.g. barcodes for key loading, tho obv. a laugh from security pov. but illiterates could use, in principle, if one could somehow sneak it into 'appstores' etc
15:06 phf asciilifeform: would also like it all to burn in fire, but that's a silly perpesctive re "significantly harder than irc". it's smooth, when it comes i dunno how to call it, audio visual telepresence if you will :> it sits in memory and keeps the connection live (unlike irc, that can "disconnect" no such thing in messangers), so if you're walking down the street and see a cool rigged jeep you can it's just monkey trivial to send the
15:06 phf picture to your jeep friend and follow it up by a comment
15:07 asciilifeform a, videochats
15:07 shinohai pest on android pnoje easy as weechat + glowing bear
15:07 asciilifeform from this pov pestron would satisfy, also has 0 notion of 'disconnect'
15:08 phf asciilifeform: not just videochats, can do "photo followed by voice to text text comment or typed text comment or an audio clip recording" depending on context
15:08 asciilifeform right, traditional ipnoje 'grunt into videophone' culture
15:09 asciilifeform shinohai: glowing bear ?
15:09 phf asciilifeform: this has nothing to do with "culture", and your chip on shoulder dismissal of it is why there's 5 people in here :>
15:09 shinohai glowing bear jstronic frontend to weechat relay
15:10 asciilifeform phf: well in fact not dismissing, hence thought 'nuffin in principle prevents lolcat aficionados riding on a pestnet'
15:10 asciilifeform would in fact work quite well for their use case, if were packaged for their nintendos
15:11 * asciilifeform not personally has motivation to attempt this, but seems possible in principle imho
15:11 * shinohai would like to see pest on a 650 Nintendo famicon system .....
15:11 shinohai *6502
15:11 phf asciilifeform: but i'm saying that this particular perspective is limiting, because will leave rough edges where "why retards no use, probably because retarded" rather then "you have to flip flag n_x and twiddle relay proxy to send picture to grandma"
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15:11 asciilifeform shinohai: has it got a serial port ?
15:12 asciilifeform phf: (again theoretically...) a pestron implementing sect. 5 would not need 'flip flag xyz'
15:12 shinohai Can be hacked to use one https://www.nesdev.org/wiki/Serial_Cable_Construction
15:13 asciilifeform i.e. worx exactly like e.g. 'skype' but with ~erry~ peer able to play role of the hq which breaks you outta nat
15:14 asciilifeform ( thimbronion's current blatta, yes, 'stick shift', requires some massage to keep peerings going )
15:19 * asciilifeform thinks he grasps phf's point re 'rough edges' . most of'em however artifacts of draft impl. rather than intrinsic to a p2p net. i.e. there's no particular reason wai one couldn't have an outwardly aol-shaped pest client, so long as has a means to exch keys (say, with barcode <-> camera rub)
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15:20 * signpost also uses telegram with frens
15:21 asciilifeform ... no particular reason wai couldn't send videochat etc. over pest, or whatever other payload
15:24 signpost imho yep, the problem with these is the centralization, not whether it has pictures, w/e other media.
15:24 asciilifeform if anything, asciilifeform suspects would have better throughput than the conventional centralized skypes
15:28 signpost phf: there are probably a lot of w/e's between normies and ourselves that have at least brushed against the notion of decentralization, would use something that provided what they're used to atop it.
15:29 * asciilifeform recalls 20y ago when 'normies' were quite happy to use e.g. 'directconnect' w4r3z
15:30 asciilifeform ... and moar generally, folx dun need to be programmers to want to escape the idjit corral
15:30 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-18 15:31:54 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-06-18#1039833 << i may've let this slip, oughta answr directly -- what i'm proposing is to depart from last 25yrs of internet decay, where errything came to consist of 'herd of cattle' and 'farmers' to corral, milk, and occasionally devour the former; and instead experiment where people stand up on own legs.
15:30 signpost nerds were doing their jobs corrupting them back then.
15:31 signpost now they're all getting their cocks sucked by satan in SV.
15:31 signpost mhm, not only don't need, but conversely the programmers need other types to sum to "civilization"
15:35 asciilifeform e.g. mp's camwhores proved conclusively that there is no 'min iq' or particularly heavy training needed to irc. and pestron not intrinsically moar complicated than subj.
15:36 asciilifeform re 'why' -- imho would be a rather effective didactic intro to concept of wot, for the otherwise innocent.
15:38 phf signpost: i think that nobody particularly cares about their opsec, because they don't have reasons to, and that's not going to change, no matter how many assanges. only way "hacker" tool becomes popular is if has trappings of hacker tool, more so than substance.
15:38 phf and the easiest way to kill any kind of prospects of a tool being widely exposed is to make it into "effective didactic intro" :P
15:39 asciilifeform phf: asciilifeform (perhaps naively) suspects that 1337 w4r3z remains, as 20y ago, an effective draw for all sortsa folx
15:40 signpost phf: yup, I agree "this thing is moar secure" isn't something anyone gives a shit about except us.
15:40 asciilifeform at least in the past, warez was a cultural common ground for just about erryone
15:40 signpost private trackers are still huge.
15:40 asciilifeform aha
15:41 signpost "last" tracker could be built on pest.
15:41 * signpost stating obvious
15:44 asciilifeform signpost: 'moar secure' is an abstraction to the current crop of net folx, asciilifeform suspects largely because none of the various aols meaningfully differentiated from that pov. i.e. all suffer from 'copyrasts took down xyz', 'can't load x from country y', 'oops no moar trump forum', 'oops erryone's arse photo leaked to nyt', etc ~equally
15:45 signpost yeah, the claim would be lost in the noise. everything means its opposite in marketing-world
15:45 signpost "made with 100% real food!"
15:45 asciilifeform lost in 'lemon market'(tm)
15:47 * asciilifeform supposes that the central q of this thrd is 'do the 'cattle' in fact want outta their 'stalls' or not'
15:47 * asciilifeform does not know answr
15:47 asciilifeform the continued popularity of e.g. bt w4r3z suggests that many folx do 'want out', and not simply 'demented programmers'
~ 15 minutes ~
16:03 signpost hell, p2p was a way out of the culture *I* was born into.
16:05 signpost "fuck you mom and dad, I'm going to listen to bad religion and share bill hicks vids with my friends"
16:06 asciilifeform signpost: even in '80s, 'sneakernet p2p', copy tapes, floppies, 'didactic intro to wot' hand-cranked
16:07 * asciilifeform had 'most memorable experiences w/ a comp' from hand-carried floppies, and likely aint the only 1 here who did
16:08 shinohai Same, I thought duplicating a friends BASIC cassettes (and vice-versa) was the height of technology at the time.
16:09 verisimilitude It's still the case for me.
16:10 verisimilitude ``Hmmm, do I spend literally twenty hours uploading this to my server so he may download it, or just bring it to him on a flash memory when I visit later?''
16:10 signpost think I'm slightly younger than some of y'all, was still shitting my diaper in late 80s
16:10 signpost but had same experience later with zip drives and burned CDs
16:11 asciilifeform 'sneakernet' essentially same, no matter what kinda vessel
16:24 phf asciilifeform: everyone is gamer girl now, played mario the 90s, but i was in the 90s, and will report that the common folk you're talking about were all various forms of freaks
16:30 phf for example and to the point of warez, can't look at masses as masses, gotta look at individual motivations, and i suspect by bulk it'll be "did warez because price+difficulty < legit price" always. biggest attrition from warez market has been subscription services and insta stores. "ever since steam i don't warez" likewise with netflix, hulu, hbo, etc.
16:32 * phf gtg
16:33 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-07#1105016 The moving machinery can take that into account, but yes.
16:33 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-07 10:56:14 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-06-07#1104976 >> 'There's almost always a single link which may be used safely, that link to itself.' << annoying if you need to move the thing elsewhere in memory
16:35 verisimilitude I didn't consider that, but it doesn't doom the idea; I was largely considering situations with more abstract link fields, but the general message holds.
~ 1 hours 6 minutes ~
17:42 asciilifeform verisimilitude: having to diddle erry single 'nil' during a (e.g. gc) move is ugh imho
17:47 verisimilitude Lisp has already made several decisions that rather solidify NIL, but a NIL isn't the ultimate way to indicate absence of a link.
17:48 asciilifeform verisimilitude: elaborate?
17:49 verisimilitude Firstly, in all of my work, I'm trying to envision alternative models, so imagine those cells ``diddling'' themselves.
17:49 verisimilitude I gave an example in the article.
17:49 asciilifeform verisimilitude: 'the iron will do it' != 'phree'
17:50 verisimilitude I gave an example in the article of a situation in which there was no spare value for a NIL.
17:51 asciilifeform 'may structure the problem so that a value may be its own synonym or the like' << 'atom'
17:52 verisimilitude I'll be writing another article soon, concerning a medical database.
17:52 verisimilitude Rather than have a man's spouse, say, be ``no one'', it could be listed as himself, for this.
17:53 signpost lol
17:55 verisimilitude It's a valid way to indicate lack of a spouse, signpost.
17:58 signpost that one can do something is not by itself reason.
17:59 asciilifeform ^
18:00 signpost if you want every value to resolve to your giant-list-o-words (which I still think is brain-damaged, given there's you know, actual work on the structure of language that one could draw upon), why not "nobody" instead?
18:00 verisimilitude Elaborate.
18:06 signpost http://verisimilitudes.net/2021-08-08 << here you list several words related to "abandon", rather than a datastructure which models the separate and common meaning of the prefixes and suffixes.
18:07 signpost let alone that a- and bannum are latin.
18:08 signpost you refer to this kind of parsing as "compression" but it's not; it's the fundamental structure of language, a syntax tree, and not an integer index of a table.
18:08 verisimilitude English is incredibly irregular.
18:08 verisimilitude A more beautiful iteration is possible with Latin, I realized.
18:09 verisimilitude A major issue with precisely modelling a language is that people keep adding words to them, but this isn't an issue with Latin.
18:10 signpost a proper latin model oughta allow for on-the-spot synthesis of new "words" from existing parts.
18:10 verisimilitude Notice the plan with English, at least initially, was to avoid this precise modelling, and to simply store every word mutation.
18:10 signpost the machine oughta even be able to figure out what the new term might mean.
18:11 signpost sure, I grant english is a hellish amalgam
18:11 verisimilitude I agree, and it will, but it will require just a little bit of ``friction'' with which I couldn't expect an English user to cope.
18:11 signpost fair enough; upstack, why not reference to "nothing" or "nobody" instead of "I'm married to me"?
18:12 verisimilitude The machine will need to ask the writer ``This new word seems to have this form. Is this correct, or do some changes need to be made?''.
18:12 signpost (and this too, it'd be nice if the machine could trace no-body up to a general notion of negation)
18:13 verisimilitude It's just an example of how to avoid a nobody value.
18:13 signpost I'm asking you why to avoid
18:13 verisimilitude Nobody exists not.
18:14 signpost mm, trying for logical positivism or w/e?
18:14 verisimilitude It avoids a value that must be treated particularly specially.
18:14 verisimilitude It replaces a system of everyone and no one with but everyone.
18:15 verisimilitude It's perhaps akin to ``not null access'' in Ada.
18:16 verisimilitude Elision will make sense, if I live to breathe life into it, so I must prevent it from dying with me.
18:17 * signpost doesn't begrudge anyone doing weird shit, even for art's sake.
18:17 signpost just asking questions.
18:17 signpost whether "nothing" exists is plenty fun to ponder (maaaaaan)
18:17 verisimilitude I don't begrudge anyone asking questions.
~ 35 minutes ~
18:53 verisimilitude A Bug's Life
~ 37 minutes ~
19:31 verisimilitude I loathe those whose ``technological'' opinions can be summarized as ``Why wipe my ass when Amazon can do it for me cheaper than I can do it myself?''.
19:38 billymg verisimilitude: i avoid hacker news so i don't have to know that blog posts like that exist, tyvm
19:39 asciilifeform lol confessedly bogus tale
19:39 asciilifeform 'So which is the bigger risk: An impersonator who convinces a service provider that they are me? ... Me permanently losing access to all of my identifiers?' << as if the answr were anyffin other than obvious
19:39 billymg asciilifeform: wait, it's not even real? i missed that while skimming
19:39 asciilifeform cheap agitprop.
19:39 asciilifeform billymg: 'In the meantime, please rest assured that my home is still standing.'
19:40 billymg ah, honestly thought he meant the concrete foundation/frame
19:40 asciilifeform billymg: doubt it, the pics all lifted from googleimages
19:41 billymg lemme guess, this got updooted to the top of the HN homepage already?
19:41 * asciilifeform has nfi, found the link right here in #a
19:42 verisimilitude I mentioned it, billymg, because I thought it could be interesting.
19:42 billymg and yeah the tl;dr is hilarious. "we need centralized bureaucracy to rule over us forever to protect us from the all too common event of... lightning striking our homes"
19:42 verisimilitude I liken Bitcoin to cash, in that if I set my cash on fire, I don't cry about how unfair cash is.
19:43 asciilifeform but if one were to take the tale as factual -- yes, derp, if too dump to have offsite copies of anyffin, to get a 100$ fire safe, to even fucking grab yer wallet on yer way out , yes, deserve to fucking die in a ditch.
19:43 asciilifeform *dumb
19:43 billymg asciilifeform: in the fiction claims he has a fireproof safe but isn't "lightning proof"
19:43 asciilifeform cheap agitprop.
19:44 asciilifeform ( for what specifically -- possibly for implanted slave chips? -- nfi )
19:44 billymg also says can't use bank safety deposit box because 240 british pounds per year
19:44 asciilifeform rright.
19:44 verisimilitude I avoid having many accounts, pay for my server rental and domain name with an adult checking account, and use passwords I can remember instead of cheap plastic keys that can be lost.
19:45 verisimilitude I also have basic familiarity with the people around whom I live, unlike the average bugman.
19:46 verisimilitude ``Oh verisimilitude, son of grizzled old jerk I knew.''
19:47 asciilifeform 'an asteroid has flattend my house and errything in it but me, and i have nuffin stored off site' 'you have failed basic iq test, too dumb to life, gasenwagen'
19:47 verisimilitude ``Spare a penny for the suicide booth, kind stranger?''
19:48 asciilifeform 'Скажи, а почему ты / Вместе с танком не сгорел?'(tm)(r)
19:54 verisimilitude ``Society has gone from knowing the people around you to being randomly fucked over by corporations with no recourse? Oh well, better make the best of it.''
~ 1 hours 49 minutes ~
21:43 asciilifeform see also various ancient threads.
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21:43 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-11-30 asciilifeform: if you are pwned while using 'brainwallets', simply shows that your brain is defective
21:43 dulapbot (trilema) 2015-06-10 ascii_field: so no, i have no patience for the 'brainwallets suck because you are stupid' argument.
21:43 dulapbot (trilema) 2015-06-10 ascii_field: my point is that everyone here is either using brainwallet in some form already (backup of your key in a postbox in japan, symmetrically encrypted with pw in your brain, and postbox # also in your brain) OR is one stint in pow camp away from 'civil death' (total loss of key)
21:43 dulapbot (trilema) 2015-06-24 ascii_field: (and before someone chimes in with 'so don't use brainwallet' - ~every~ wallet that you can get to, but mr schmuck can't, because you know where you buried it, etc. is in fact a 'brainwallet')
~ 1 hours 16 minutes ~
23:00 shinohai Even Bitcoin wiki "doesn't recommend" but tbh BIP39 is kinda awesum.
23:05 asciilifeform aaand see also...
23:05 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-06-03 asciilifeform: a successfully 'mined' brainwallet is... a failed iq test.
23:05 dulapbot (trilema) 2014-10-28 asciilifeform: brainwallet was known to be retarded for some time << brainwallet is a fully-automatic iq test.
23:06 asciilifeform 'not recommended', naturally, by the reich tools
23:08 shinohai superseekrit * 12 xD
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