Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2022-05-27 | 2022-05-29 → ↓
09:15 crtdaydreams https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCRibm4kOaE
~ 15 minutes ~
09:31 crtdaydreams http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-27#1103947 << "Superior mind-amplifying tools existed and will exist again." do you still have that hope Stani?
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09:31 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-27 14:40:14 asciilifeform: or, earlier, 'clojure' re common lisp
~ 25 minutes ~
09:56 crtdaydreams oh my god. this thread just keeps on giving
09:58 crtdaydreams i might need some water, the salt is drying me out
~ 21 minutes ~
10:19 crtdaydreams https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67uj7xcBuDE
~ 6 hours 24 minutes ~
16:44 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-27#1103915 I got around to reading this, and it also greatly amused me.
16:44 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-27 09:10:49 shinohai: https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4551502 << lulzy "Officers also ruled out death from COVID as he tested negative for the virus."
16:46 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1103950 I'd claim I do, even if he doesn't, crtdaydreams, but hope is an evil, so I prefer hopelessness. Regardless, I believe it will happen.
16:46 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-28 05:29:39 crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-27#1103947 << "Superior mind-amplifying tools existed and will exist again." do you still have that hope Stani?
~ 3 hours 28 minutes ~
20:14 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2015-09-03#1261703 was reflecting on this again and this is apropos "superior mind-amplifying tools" and i still don't quite grok how to effectively read on screen. i mean i do it, long form and everything, but smh it still doesn't feel as "immersive" as a printed equivalent
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20:17 phf i used to think it was a question of discipline "oh just close reddit" or whatever, but that was back when i was looking for technological solutions, while people that i knew didn't really do much intellectual work on computer. the "oh just close reddit" guy, when he needed to learn something new programming related would buy a book. now of course he's as twitch driven, "just checking the news" in bed at 1am as everyone else, so it's
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20:17 phf not just discipline
20:18 phf it is perhaps that the computing paradigms we work with are not conducive for deep thought, and it takes freaks like mp to just bruteforce it by sheer will
20:22 phf it is the blaise pascal problem of "inability to sit quitely in a room alone", inability to sit quitely in front of a computer screen without doing something, as a baseline of "superior mind-amplifying tools"
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20:23 phf because an environment that doesn't compel into mindless action would probably be a 0 baseline for a tool, before one can go into +1 of mind-amplifications. as of right now one starts with -n, before attempting to even get to 0
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20:28 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1103959 << two clarifications, for those who don't know, linked line is part of thread, little hand on the right indicates response further down, so there's two clusters, one immediately after the message, and the second cluster is around mp's response
20:28 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-28 16:12:29 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-09-03#1261703 was reflecting on this again and this is apropos "superior mind-amplifying tools" and i still don't quite grok how to effectively read on screen. i mean i do it, long form and everything, but smh it still doesn't feel as "immersive" as a printed equivalent
20:34 phf and the second point re "immersive", specific comlaint is the effort required to focus. smh when reading printed i don't feel compelled to go check email, not so when reading on screen, many such interrupts.
20:47 verisimilitude I've long questioned if I will be able to create something better than paper.
20:48 verisimilitude Paper feels more immersive because it obeys all ``messages'' of the physical world.
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20:49 verisimilitude We want a bicycle for the mind, but it's far easier to build roadblocks for the mind.
20:55 verisimilitude This is why a more cohesive system is needed, so that everything supports everything rather than supporting a queer subset.
20:56 verisimilitude I think a high-level system should provide data structures and everything else at its base, and everything should use them. Let there be one array type, one singly-linked list type, one doubly-linked list type, and so on.
~ 41 minutes ~
21:38 * asciilifeform 'i'ma take short break from replumbing!' checks log...
21:40 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1103959 << fwiw asciilifeform still keeps a very bulky 'business sized' laser printer, for this reason. ( at one time, bought a 'dasung paper' monitor , it was a fucking joke, sold immediately )
21:40 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-28 16:12:29 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-09-03#1261703 was reflecting on this again and this is apropos "superior mind-amplifying tools" and i still don't quite grok how to effectively read on screen. i mean i do it, long form and everything, but smh it still doesn't feel as "immersive" as a printed equivalent
21:42 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1103960 << asciilifeform for yrs nao 100% cured of not only 'check reddit' but 'check news' (other than l0gz) , but cannot brag that it was 'from iron discipline', simple fact is that these 'temptations' became progressively less tempting until became thoroughly uninteresting
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21:42 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-28 16:15:18 phf: i used to think it was a question of discipline "oh just close reddit" or whatever, but that was back when i was looking for technological solutions, while people that i knew didn't really do much intellectual work on computer. the "oh just close reddit" guy, when he needed to learn something new programming related would buy a book. now of course he's as twitch driven, "just checking the news" in bed at 1am as ever
21:47 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1103963 << fwiw asciilifeform's commercial worx actually consist of 'sit quietly in room alone for n hrs / days , then write 5-6 lines '. ( handily also prevents wrist rot... )
21:47 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-28 16:20:15 phf: it is the blaise pascal problem of "inability to sit quitely in a room alone", inability to sit quitely in front of a computer screen without doing something, as a baseline of "superior mind-amplifying tools"
21:47 dulapbot Logged on 2022-01-25 19:41:25 asciilifeform: still suspects that 'gold standard' prevention & cure of wrist rot is simply not hammering in MB of txt / d
21:48 asciilifeform this again aint a 'triumph of iron will' but a direct consequence of the chosen problem domain.
21:50 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1103964 << rarely imho does yer terminal per se 'compel to mindless action'. such action more likely result of boredom ( and you gotta ask, if the thing yer nominally working on is even less interesting than current-day redditardation, maybe oughta automate it..? )
21:50 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-28 16:21:56 phf: because an environment that doesn't compel into mindless action would probably be a 0 baseline for a tool, before one can go into +1 of mind-amplifications. as of right now one starts with -n, before attempting to even get to 0
21:51 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1103969 << imho 99% of 'win' of paper is that 1) it dun emit light 2) is visible in sun / hammock 3) can freeform scribble on it in margins, b/w lines
21:51 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-28 16:46:13 verisimilitude: Paper feels more immersive because it obeys all ``messages'' of the physical world.
21:52 * asciilifeform tried various 'paper tablet' things, they're all fucking jokes ( i.e. nowhere near resolution of a printed page, no colour , can't flip through'em at 'paper speed', wait for eink fucking snail redraw at 0.5hz , or 2hz with liquishit artifacts all over )
21:54 asciilifeform ... perhaps also oughta add that paper dun need to be plugged into wall, does not run outta battery, has little to fear from water or dust
21:56 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1103976 << ftr check reddit is catch all for "do something else"
21:56 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-28 17:40:54 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1103960 << asciilifeform for yrs nao 100% cured of not only 'check reddit' but 'check news' (other than l0gz) , but cannot brag that it was 'from iron discipline', simple fact is that these 'temptations' became progressively less tempting until became thoroughly uninteresting
21:57 asciilifeform right, assumed refs to aggregators / newz www's collectively
21:58 phf well, it's refs to any kind of displacement activity
21:59 phf i'm unsatisfied with "works for me" kind of answers. i too can hyperfocus on a task, and that's perhaps a biological quirk for which we get paid the big bucks. what i am frustrated with is that "check news" is not a problem with physical medium. also was not problem with e.g. dos
22:01 verisimilitude I must have an iron will.
22:01 verisimilitude I do waste time, but still.
22:01 phf and the sop is the opposite-- "switch contexts faster! information super highway at fingertips! oh did you know SOMEBODY TAGGED you on INSTAFACE" etc.
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22:01 asciilifeform not using 'instafaces' of whatever kind defo helps
22:02 verisimilitude Get rid of the ``social media'' and phone, phf.
22:04 phf i suspect you're also using a highly tailored linux environment, with as i recall an equivalent of ratpoison
22:06 verisimilitude To whom is that message addressed, phf?
22:06 * asciilifeform celebrating 20y of 'ratpoison' this yr
22:06 phf tbh i was hoping this conversation will go into a deeper jeff rasking/oberon/single use machines kind of direction :)
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22:07 verisimilitude It would've, but phf has me on ignore, right?
22:07 jonsykkel only way to solve imo is dig 100m hole and put there offline work comp with no toys installed
22:07 jonsykkel ned climb ladder to chek reddit or watever
22:10 verisimilitude It's funny how IGNŌRĀMVS, ``we know not'', is used as a noun meaning ``fool'' nowadays.
22:19 phf jonsykkel: that's a self evident solutions, but it is also perhaps ad hoc. i don't have any computers smaller than a laptop, nor do i have any social media accounts, i have a router that mitms ssl and hijacks dns to block a giant list of sites, e.g. new york times or whatever, not even because i open those, but because i don't even want to open them if someone were to send me one "just this one time". i also, like ascii, spend most of
22:19 phf my time with a fullscreen terminal of work code on which i meditate for long periods of time, before i arrive to minimal change. and yet i find "reading on screen" to be mentally demanding activity. i'd maybe like to ultimately know if this is an inherent problem with the medium, problem with interface paradigm, problem with me, or what
22:21 phf *computers smaller than a laptop with screens attache to them, that i didn't solder screen to myself
22:28 jonsykkel isnt it possible that its simply the presence of potential distractions that makes the difference
22:30 jonsykkel knowing in bakc of mind that entering reddit mode requires close to 0 effort
22:32 jonsykkel and when reading physical paper u are incidentaly in a position where this effort is hgiher
22:34 phf i don't think it's the whole of it. as an experiment put a book on your desk, turn off monitor, but wire your spacebar to light up the monitor and be open to reddit or whatever. from my own experience not just a question of effort, but a quesiton of modality also
22:36 crtdaydreams I have been actively thinking about this for the past week, it's excellent that it came up.
22:37 phf but also consider various experiments on information retention between epaper devices and hardcopy medium, where hardcopy had a statistically significany advantage in recall
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22:38 crtdaydreams Had no internet out in the sticks, and before bed and in the morning for ~1hr would be reading a book on my phone. It's OLED and I've turned brightness all the way down and night light on. While reading from rooted android w/ Libera ebook reader epubs on phone.
22:40 crtdaydreams Can only read for so long before my eyeballs dry out. So I was thinking about a solution. Browsed some e-readers, Kobo, Kindle, et cetera. All dogshit bloatware.
22:40 crtdaydreams Had some proprietary bullshit slapped ontop of android.
22:40 phf and another point, there's been concious effort to gamify user experience, increase addictive aspect of website interaction, focus on heavy interrupt driven ux (multitasking, but also notifications), etc. while attempts in the opposite direction are fringe gimmicks like various "mindfulness" minimalist shit, like signpost's pidor phone
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22:42 crtdaydreams ^ largely result of tossing away "do one thing and do it well" padagrim imo
22:43 verisimilitude UNIX is irrelevant here, crtdaydreams.
22:44 crtdaydreams verisimilitude: such a padagrim needn't be related to UNIX.
22:44 jonsykkel dunno, apropriately enuf i hav found even turning off irc monitor helps with attention presumably cuz moving hand to onoff button is significant enought increase in efort
22:44 verisimilitude I'd sooner argue it's an effect of adding digital characteristics to an analog device.
22:44 verisimilitude It does when quoted, crtdaydreams.
22:46 verisimilitude I waste most of my time, but not all of it, and so I still manage to do things.
22:47 crtdaydreams verisimilitude: well look at current e-readers for example. The damn things try to be a browser, ~IoT Device~ (whatever that means), webstore, advertising platform, everything *but* a decent e-reader.
22:47 verisimilitude I don't own one.
22:47 verisimilitude I won't use electronics where they may be avoided.
22:48 verisimilitude None of my coffee paraphernalia needs electricity, as an example.
22:49 verisimilitude I've read a single ePub book, in Emacs, because I couldn't purchase a physical copy without using Amazon.
22:50 crtdaydreams That's fair. Each to their own.
22:52 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1104014 << asciilifeform strongly suspect that 1) light-emitting displays 2) scrolling -- suxx
22:52 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-28 18:35:20 phf: but also consider various experiments on information retention between epaper devices and hardcopy medium, where hardcopy had a statistically significany advantage in recall
22:52 asciilifeform possibly mostly the latter
22:53 * asciilifeform has long-running habit of 'if $document needs to be properly loaded into head, better print it, even if has to be laboriously spiral-bound' etc
22:54 * crtdaydreams has been thinking of investing in a decent laser printer
22:56 crtdaydreams inkjet lifecycle goes something like this: buy printer -> print a couple things -> ink dries out -> clean 4x times -> print a couple things -> run out of ink -> can't buy ink || ink costs 75% of new printer -> buy printer
22:56 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1104018 << imho good % of 'the remedies dunwork' is on acct of simple fact that no mechanism can fix the situation where yer work is so loathesome that yer hindbrain is actively trying to run away from it
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22:56 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-28 18:38:41 phf: and another point, there's been concious effort to gamify user experience, increase addictive aspect of website interaction, focus on heavy interrupt driven ux (multitasking, but also notifications), etc. while attempts in the opposite direction are fringe gimmicks like various "mindfulness" minimalist shit, like signpost's pidor phone
22:57 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: throw out the ink printer, is a traditional 'razor blade' scam
22:57 crtdaydreams asciilifeform: I know. Wondering what brand of laser to get that will actually *work* with linux.
22:57 asciilifeform even the most rundown thrift shop laser is over9000x cheaper per pg ( and faster )
22:58 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: you'll want either a ( likely 20+y old ) postscript-compat. machine, or will have to set up 'print server' box to emulate one
22:58 asciilifeform ... or get the kind which can read e.g. pdf from thumb drive and print that.
22:59 crtdaydreams Ah. Right.
23:00 * crtdaydreams thinks 'print server' on spare unix boxen would be the way to go
23:00 * asciilifeform must return to the pipes, will bbl
23:02 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1104038 << i've seen you make this point already, but also consider that work by its very nature is a loathsome affair, even when "take pride" and "born for it". the anarchist bob black has a quote that i like, that work starts when play becomes compulsory. never the less a lathe machinist slacks by shooting shit with coworkers, or drinking beer in the break room, not e.g. going to
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23:02 phf a different lathe to work on hobby project, or reading "lathe machinist daily" magazine :p
23:02 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-28 18:54:42 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-05-28#1104018 << imho good % of 'the remedies dunwork' is on acct of simple fact that no mechanism can fix the situation where yer work is so loathesome that yer hindbrain is actively trying to run away from it
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