Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2020-05-29 | 2020-05-31 → ↓
03:55 verisimilitude I'm willing to answer questions and whatnot, regarding the Loongson machines. I mostly just use my Lemote Yeeloong for miscellaneous purposes, primarily IRC these last few years. It's just an Emacs machine running OpenBSD for me, right now.
03:57 verisimilitude I've so wanted to fully understand a physical machine, and the Yeeloong is a good candidate, but at the time I was perhaps naive enough to not realize just how many steps were still ahead of me. I don't even have a MIPS development tool finished yet, although the design's been in my skull for a decent ways.
~ 6 hours 44 minutes ~
10:42 asciilifeform verisimilitude: nifty, rare box. which mips rev., incidentally, was in there ?
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10:43 asciilifeform verisimilitude: fwiw , even tho, like many people, asciilifeform had to write mips emulator in school, was 'children's' mips, didn't 100% grasp the in-practice arch until wrote 'M' emulator in 2019 .
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10:44 shinohai I was keenly interested in 'M' because wanted to make custom kernel for erl2, only device I have w/ mips.
10:45 asciilifeform btw, verisimilitude , that proggy contains more or less full description of mips32 in the comments. ( oblig phf viewer link . )
10:45 asciilifeform shinohai: you can build kernel same as i did, neh
10:45 asciilifeform there's traditionally mips support, even in the recent ones
10:45 asciilifeform might have to change some constants if it's a genuinely oddball machine tho ( as i had to , given 'fictional' machine )
10:47 asciilifeform fwiw i built not only kernel but ~complete userland for that thing. but it aint any good on any physical mips, my devices (e.g. interval clock ) were made-up , for max simplicity, rather than re-creations of historical ones
10:47 asciilifeform ( the kernel, that is, useless on physical; userland is ordinary mips-III compat. )
10:48 asciilifeform it's the same mips as in the old game machine 'playstation', incidentally.
10:52 shinohai I did manage to get a Gentoo working on it, it sometimes resets sporadically for reasons I never figured out.
10:52 shinohai OpenBSD worx a++ on it too.
10:52 asciilifeform shinohai: hm, resets but only w/ the gentoo ?
10:53 shinohai Yup, only with the Gentoo - 'twas about year and half ago I did ut, may try again when time permits to ensure I didn't screw up somewhere in my config.
10:54 shinohai (At first had issues finding a 32GB USB drive it would read!)
10:54 asciilifeform what's the win from having that box ? afaik is long outta print
10:55 shinohai It was phree ... mats and I were gonna do something with it, honestly I've forgotten what.
10:56 * asciilifeform was given all kindsa oddities 'for phree', e.g. dec alpha, but not aboutta port anyffin to'em, if it dies, where to get another ?
10:57 asciilifeform my interest in mips was 100% on acct of simplicity of the arch -- it fits in smallish fpga .
10:57 asciilifeform sadly there aint much use for a ~40MHz mips , afaik. which is all i can get in e.g. 'ice40' fpga
10:58 shinohai Add a Turbo button! xD
11:00 trinque shinohai: would you have an existing gcc-4.9.4 system from which to build my item?
11:01 trinque needs a gnat too.
11:01 trinque I've been building from a devuan oldstable, have the exact list of packages needed for bootstrap.
11:01 shinohai trinque: I have the gcc+gnat using 4.9.4 I posted on my blog about.
11:02 trinque the part I'm ready to circulate is a replacement for ave1's item, which enraged me the moment I started reading the src
11:02 * asciilifeform defo interested in trinque's re-edition of gnat
11:02 trinque fucking shell variables smeared over every surface
11:02 shinohai It made my head hurt too.
11:03 asciilifeform trinque: ave1's gnat in fact built (on my traditional gentoo), i've been using it since. but a cleaner/moar retargetable one would be a++ handy
11:04 shinohai I was able to build it on Gentoo as well, but did take a fair amount of massaging to get to work.
11:04 trinque yeah, I got his (really gregor's) to build eventually.
11:05 trinque lemme crack off just the gcc bit for now and get it up somewhere.
11:05 trinque it was pretty sad also to walk the dependency chain for gcc itself.
11:05 trinque perl. yes.
11:06 trinque if you want to be able to build everything in the gcc src tree, about 7 other shitwads come in.
11:07 asciilifeform trinque: aaand, just how many MB of autoconf liquishit in there..
11:08 * asciilifeform suspects 'gnu universe' consists 10-20% of ~that~ by weight
11:09 trinque yes.
11:09 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-05-30#1013654 It's a MIPS64el with incompatible extensions in the unused instruction space.
11:09 snsabot Logged on 2020-05-30 10:42:17 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: nifty, rare box. which mips rev., incidentally, was in there ?
11:09 trinque also texinfo, also fuck my eyes.
11:09 asciilifeform verisimilitude: sadly this aint unusual -- afaik just about erry single physical mips manufactured to date, had some kinda oddity (tho, in moar civilized ones, implemented as 'coprocessor' registers )
11:10 trinque all of this can be cleaved off, but needs to be actually cleaved off. there are bugs in the gcc build process where it claims you can get away without autoconf/automake/texinfo, but that is unreliable.
11:11 trinque also what the fuck, the idiots split binutils into its own tree, and duplicated all the libiberty type crap
11:11 shinohai I'd deffo like to cleave off unused languages, such as the golang stuff.
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11:11 trinque I merged binutils back into gcc
11:11 trinque yup shinohai, gcj also
11:11 shinohai ^
11:11 trinque fortran possibly useful for archaeology? not sure
11:11 asciilifeform trinque: at one point i succeeded in de-autoconfing a (much, much smaller item ) , in that case took coupla days
11:12 trinque asciilifeform: I was thinking the move here is to reimplement all builds with gprbuild
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11:12 verisimilitude Currently, the only programming I've moved to the machine is my APL; there's no suitable Common Lisp or Ada implementations for both the particular machine type and OpenBSD.
11:12 trinque get the shit into the tree first, then start wrapping in gprbuild
11:12 asciilifeform trinque: there are fairly useful proggies that in fact demand f90 ( 'lapack' being the best-known , afaik )
11:13 trinque yeah, seems like it lives.
11:13 asciilifeform but if trinque's set dun have fortran, asciilifeform will not consider it 'tragedy'
11:13 asciilifeform funnily enuff i orig. considered fortran for ffa.
11:13 asciilifeform was pretty close runner-up
11:15 * shinohai imagines feeding a fortran ffa puchcards ......
11:15 asciilifeform lol
11:16 asciilifeform shinohai: might surprise you, but fortran hasn't died, is still king in 'numerical' circles
11:16 * asciilifeform has written (tho, more often, read) fortranisms for $
11:16 trinque seems like a decision to make with someone's vpatch after it's in.
11:16 asciilifeform aha
11:17 asciilifeform i'd actually throw out cpp before throwing fortran
11:17 asciilifeform (tho , for max compactness, perhaps oughta throw both.. )
11:17 * trinque nods vigorously re: cpp
11:17 * asciilifeform wonders how much would weigh a gcc sans cpp
11:18 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-05-30#1013655 I read the machine documentation, but even then there were aspects that were too vague for my liking, but it's also been several years since I did, so it could've merely been my relative lack of experience.
11:18 snsabot Logged on 2020-05-30 10:43:11 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: fwiw , even tho, like many people, asciilifeform had to write mips emulator in school, was 'children's' mips, didn't 100% grasp the in-practice arch until wrote 'M' emulator in 2019 .
11:18 asciilifeform verisimilitude: when i wrote emulator, worked from mips co.'s official datashits. they're pedantically complete.
11:18 asciilifeform ( the relevant parts, reproduced in the comments in 'M' , as plain text. )
11:19 verisimilitude I'll make certain to reference M when I play with MIPS again, then.
11:19 shinohai Even though asciilifeform considers 'M' defunct I learned a lot from reading it, was indeed well commented.
11:19 asciilifeform ftr mips co appears to have gone bankrupt recently. (imho not tragedy, it's done absolutely nuffin useful in ~20y . aside from 'officially' depatenting the arch. )
11:19 verisimilitude In any case, MIPS is an ugly little architecture, which requires far too much to do far too little, I think.
11:19 asciilifeform shinohai: imho it's entirely adequate as a complete description of the machine
11:20 asciilifeform verisimilitude: imho the unaligned-byte ops are entirely unnecessary. ( i implemented'em, cuz gcc shits'em. strictly )
11:20 asciilifeform aside from that, it's afaik cleanest arch for which anyone ever sold physical cpu, to date
11:21 verisimilitude I dislike RISC, but find RISC-V a much cleaner design, albeit misguided.
11:21 asciilifeform verisimilitude: it's more or less a cut-down mips, near as i can tell
11:21 verisimilitude Branch-delay slots are merely MIPS first issue.
11:22 verisimilitude The instructions are all individually quite useless, but require thirty-two bits each.
11:22 asciilifeform verisimilitude: they're ugly, but vastly simplified implementation of pipeline (mips was 1st commonplace iron that had one)
11:22 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i fuckinghate variable-length instructions.
11:22 asciilifeform is 90% of what i hate about x86ism.
11:22 verisimilitude In considering a memory-to-memory machine, variable-length instructions are effectively required for good code compacting.
11:23 asciilifeform verisimilitude: in practice, the proliferation of prefix crapola more or less cancels out the 'compact'
11:23 asciilifeform observe w/ own eyes, sizes of built binaries
11:24 verisimilitude Well, this machine being considered doesn't exist, yet.
11:24 * asciilifeform if building cpu, wouldn't even include byte-addressability. at all.
11:24 verisimilitude Still, to increment a value in memory requires three instructions with MIPS, an entire twelve octets.
11:25 asciilifeform verisimilitude: if you dive into subj of how-and-why folx designed cpu, will see that errything has a cost. all designer can do is move cost from 1 place to another.
11:26 verisimilitude Sure, but MIPS doesn't really gain anything. RISC is designed to run C programs better, and that's about it.
11:26 verisimilitude Chuck Moore's machines are certainly more ``reduced'', but with a worse advertising arm.
11:26 asciilifeform you can have, for instance, fixed-width instrs, this makes cpu 9000x less complicated. or, on other end of things, the x86 atrocity, where no one alive in fact understands wtf is happening in there, not even manufacturer
11:27 verisimilitude RISC advocacy in fact takes on the same characteristics as UNIX idolatry.
11:27 asciilifeform verisimilitude: all of the commercially-sold archs were 'to run c', i.e. lack type bits, bounds checks, etc. but lispm is very separate conversation from 'cpu to plant linux on'
11:28 verisimilitude ``Aha, that machine was really RISC all along, if we look at it just right. Yes, my worldview doesn't change with this.''
11:28 asciilifeform verisimilitude: mips, arm, x86, etc. are all traditional objects of unix idolatry.
11:28 asciilifeform cpu for 100% sane comp 'from the ground' would have very diff. characteristics from any of these .
11:29 verisimilitude People claim Moore's machines are RISC, but then can't explain the massive difference in complexity between them. There are historical machines called RISC, yet which for the time contained state-of-the-art hardware and capabilities. There are more examples.
11:30 asciilifeform verisimilitude: 'risc' is a 1980s marketing term, w/ no well-defined meaning.
11:30 verisimilitude Yes.
11:30 asciilifeform sorta like 'reduced-fat' in the shitfood market
11:31 verisimilitude Also, it's hilarious to read of some of the first automatic computers having multipliers, but early RISC was too holy for them.
11:31 asciilifeform verisimilitude: multipliers have a cost.
11:31 verisimilitude Again, same thing with UNIX, ``Useful work is too much, have wc instead.''.
11:31 asciilifeform when cpu became 'integrated' (single-chip) item , multipliers were among 1st things to be omitted.
11:32 asciilifeform (previously they were separate device, amd for instance made'em)
11:32 verisimilitude Yet multipliers also have an obvious use, and machines have contained them in some form for nearly the duration of the field.
11:32 asciilifeform they're obviously useful, but ~very~ expensive , for instance a 32x32 multiplier doesn't even fit in any 'ice'-series fpga
11:32 verisimilitude Now sure, this multiplier I've in mind was also of the form ``Give it the numbers and wait twenty instructions.'', but still.
11:33 asciilifeform verisimilitude: ~that~ kind of multiplier is best implemented as series of instructions. ( it worx like this . )
11:34 asciilifeform to the extent 'risc vs cisc wars' had a definitive logical meaning, it was specifically this dilemma, 'should $instr be a microcoded turd, or should programmer be asked to actually supply the instructions'
11:35 verisimilitude I should revisit FFA, but I'd need to reread everything I've read so far, by now.
11:35 asciilifeform verisimilitude: linked for the basic binary mult. algo (which hasn't in fact changed since... ancient egypt)
11:35 asciilifeform is used in exactly that form in all physical multipliers.
11:36 * asciilifeform brb in half hr
11:37 verisimilitude Oh, the classic halving and doubling, yes. I'd first learned of this algorithm in a human context in the context of multiplying and dividing with Roman numerals.
~ 36 minutes ~
12:13 asciilifeform verisimilitude: similar algo was used in china, india, number of places, prolly ~errywhere
12:14 asciilifeform and so happens that -- for small numbers -- is the mechanically-simplest method .
12:17 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-05-30#1013699 << i dun recall that horror being in any of the 4.x gcc's
12:17 snsabot Logged on 2020-05-30 11:11:10 shinohai: I'd deffo like to cleave off unused languages, such as the golang stuff.
12:18 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-05-30#1013705 << imho is prolly the sanest build system avail.
12:18 snsabot Logged on 2020-05-30 11:12:03 trinque: asciilifeform: I was thinking the move here is to reimplement all builds with gprbuild
12:18 shinohai http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/view/7.7/general/gcc.html <<< lfs shows it since at least 4.9.2
12:19 asciilifeform shinohai: interesting. possibly i never noticed cuz defaults off unless flag ?
12:19 shinohai Yup, I have a;lways built using `--enable-languages=c,c++,fortran` and left off go and objective c stuff.
12:19 asciilifeform ( like 'obj-c' for instance )
12:20 asciilifeform interestingly, i can't think of any cpp proggy i actually use on linux.
12:20 shinohai trb!
12:20 asciilifeform well trb.
12:21 asciilifeform can think of other ?
12:21 shinohai Not off hand.
12:22 shinohai (Unless you are shitcoiner like me, then you see vomit-inducing C++ crap ~daily)
12:22 * asciilifeform would in fact rather see 'bad old days' of cpp-via-preprocessor return, than to have to carry cppism in compiler
12:22 asciilifeform shinohai: stroustrup's orig. cpp was implemented that way.
12:23 asciilifeform shinohai: i shudder to even think of what's in the shitcoins.
12:23 asciilifeform (last i knew, they were ~all more or less straight copypasta of various prb, w/ constants fiddled)
12:25 asciilifeform !w poll
12:25 watchglass Polling 11 nodes...
12:25 watchglass 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.086s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=632338
12:25 watchglass 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.089s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=632338
12:25 watchglass 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.086s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=632338
12:25 watchglass 108.31.170.3:8333 : (pool-108-31-170-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.039s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=632338 (Operator: asciilifeform)
12:25 watchglass 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.084s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=632338 (Operator: asciilifeform)
12:25 watchglass 192.151.158.26:8333 : Alive: (0.145s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=632338
12:25 watchglass 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.167s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=632338
12:25 watchglass 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.221s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=632338
12:25 watchglass 213.109.238.156:8333 : Alive: (0.339s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=632338
12:25 watchglass 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.561s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=632338
12:26 watchglass 188.121.168.69:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 20 sec.)
12:30 shinohai asciilifeform: Latest job for me is updating a coin based off LTC so will build under musl on alpine. Array overflow occurs in scrypt.cpp because of "scratchpad" size. https://github.com/FredKSchott/litecoin/blob/exp-0.8-backports/src/scrypt.cpp
12:30 shinohai In line 300, changed char to static char and did memset, now worx
12:31 asciilifeform V = (uint32_t *)(((uintptr_t)(scratchpad) + 63) & ~ (uintptr_t)(63)); << lol wtf
12:33 asciilifeform shinohai: i gotta ask, how didja persuade shitcoinists to give a rat's arse re musl etc ?
12:34 shinohai Well, ironically they want to put nodez on docker container that runs alpine linux, because lightweight.
12:34 asciilifeform lol!
12:40 shinohai Fortunately it is coin that has no gnu autotool crap, I have not yet figured out how to get that crap to build using my toolchain.
12:42 asciilifeform autoconf is a plague. and not simply cuz weighs ~same as typical proggy that uses it, but also is the fountain of liquishit where you never know exactly what libs will be linked, cuz 'auto-finds' various
12:43 shinohai Yeah that's the issue. Even if you export lib locations, it usually goes "fuck you, imma link to system libs lol".
12:43 asciilifeform 1st step in terraforming a gnuturd is to rip out the autoconfism.
12:45 shinohai I need to figure out a recipe for "modern" coinz. They split everything into 3-4 binaries now (coind, coin-cli, and coin-tx) so haven't really dug in to find out what I need to do to get proper makefile.
12:46 asciilifeform shinohai: lol, i can see why to split into daemon and command-eater, but what's the third one for ?
12:46 shinohai cli part runs stuff like `getnfo` tx part is for producing raw tx's, etc.
12:47 asciilifeform a
12:47 shinohai I haven't built latest "core" Bitcoin yet, but it introduces new binary called "bitcoin-wallet"
12:47 asciilifeform shinohai: do any of these prbs have a proper two-machine-splittable wallet ?
12:47 * asciilifeform would be rather surprised
12:49 * asciilifeform finds it odd that (afaik) to date no one implemented proper storage of blox/tx, such that could ask in o(1) 'is this unspent addr', 'how much'
12:49 snsabot (therealbitcoin) 2020-05-15 asciilifeform: idea is, when you eat a block, you store the tx in such a way that they actually point to the ones being spent. in mmap'd array. the respective scripts are kept in another, so that they don't fuck your page alignments. (ea. tx points back to the orig. script. so can reconstitute orig. tx / block on demand )
12:49 shinohai None that I have come across yet.
12:50 asciilifeform would make vastly more practical machine-split walletism
12:50 asciilifeform (among other things)
12:50 asciilifeform there's no fucking reason one oughta have to walk ~entire disk~ to answer any q about subset of the blockchain
12:50 shinohai I always wanted to redo wallet functions in tinyscheme, to use with shiva.
12:51 asciilifeform shinohai: iirc jfw posted exactly this at one pt (i haven't tried tho)
12:51 asciilifeform but iirc his thing required the 'hot end' to be aware of wallet addrs, to answer 'how much'
12:52 shinohai Oh yeah I remember jfw's schem wallet now, but thought it got lost to a python version. (I honestly don't remember)
12:52 asciilifeform shinohai: he had both, wrote in parallel i think
12:54 shinohai ah kk
12:55 asciilifeform it was actually not clear to me, how he sells the thing w/ 1way photodiode, if it requires 2-way conversation w/ stock trb, to work
12:55 asciilifeform ( is user expected to flip the diode by hand...? )
12:56 asciilifeform there was an imho worrisome flavour of 'if someone buys, i'll think of the answer THEN' to it. but perhaps unfair picture, i haven't the full detail.
12:58 * asciilifeform at one pt considered 'what would happen if asciilifeform asked to purchase jfw's thing'. would show up ? balk ? and if show up, w/ what ?
12:59 asciilifeform and, is there discount if skip the powerpoint slides of mp's face ? cuz i've seen it already, lol
12:59 shinohai LMAO!!!
13:01 asciilifeform shinohai: iirc he doesn't charge all that much. maybe if yer bored some time try and buy..
13:01 asciilifeform iirc it's 3 btc or somesuch
13:01 asciilifeform ( dun recall if this includes his plane fare or not )
13:05 * asciilifeform not nearly enuff of sadist to properly enjoy this kinda thing, even if fella did agree
13:06 shinohai I certainly ain't gonna pay 3 BTC for a glorified alpine linux. Plus Dorian might show up, and I'm outta space in the basement for cultists.
13:06 asciilifeform shinohai: the linux etc. is already on their www. i'm moar curious re whether the thing even glued together, or would they be gluing it while the meter ticks.
13:07 trinque their thing is fine as a collection of musl patches; I happily cribbed a few
13:07 trinque I was pretty annoyed that it just pulls down tarballs from the net.
13:08 asciilifeform trinque: that part did surprise me. it dun cost much at all to set up mirror
13:08 trinque and weighed fixing it for them, and instead built my own, which weighed less.
13:08 asciilifeform i'd expect would be 1st step in opening a shop of whatever description -- just ONE single actual physical server..
13:08 trinque the presence of e.g. php is a pretty strong signal that we have different goals.
13:09 asciilifeform aha, iirc trinque summarized in earlier thrd
13:09 shinohai lol php?
13:09 trinque I mean ocaml and python are in there too
13:09 asciilifeform shinohai: jfw's distro was/is trying to 'kitchen sink'
13:09 asciilifeform x11, firefox, etc
13:10 trinque lol, apparently also redis
13:10 * trinque flails wildly
13:10 asciilifeform wassat ?
13:11 trinque a db commonly used for caching in webshits
13:11 asciilifeform ugh
13:11 asciilifeform sounds like a shoddy trimming job ( or do they actually ~use~ that somewhere ?? )
13:12 trinque no idea, but I went on a long "have you folks even considered that you'd have to maintain these items yourselves" rant on my blog, and it apparently did zilch.
13:12 trinque so I stopped.
13:12 shinohai I thought all the hipsters used mongodb
13:12 * asciilifeform will mirror e.g. trinque's thing, pro bono (tho i expect trinque has own boxen to mirror on, like adult oughta)
13:12 trinque shinohai: redis is at least much smaller, but still yep, of that generation of hipsterdeebs
13:12 * asciilifeform admits that he aint up-to-date re crackpot db's
13:13 asciilifeform i did try (initially succeeded, but could not reproduce on all irons) cl 'elephant' once
13:14 trinque that sits on a postgres tho eh?
13:14 asciilifeform was prolly the most oddball db i've touched w/ own hands.
13:14 asciilifeform trinque: iirc there was a native oddball thing one could enable instead of pg
13:14 asciilifeform was ~decade ago...
13:14 trinque ah cool.
13:15 * asciilifeform finds interesting how dbism provokes 'religious' reflex in many folx
13:16 trinque there's this whole "this found object is complex and I can make it do a few things, therefore it's mine" pathology
13:16 trinque this shitwad I collected of open source garbage is emphatically not mine. the bdsm gear in which I wrapped it, is.
13:17 asciilifeform trinque: that, and the sheer terror in the face of idea of having to actually understand what it does
13:17 shinohai or maintain it.
13:17 asciilifeform ftr i consider programmable (e.g. sqlistic) db, a prototyping tool
13:18 asciilifeform like other people, i wrote proggies that used'em, but -- consider prototypes. 'adult' proggy would have concrete set idea of the data structure, and not need sqlism imho.
13:19 trinque yep.
13:20 trinque they're a bad compromise on a number of fronts, chimera of an fs, an RPC system, data analysis tool, etc
13:20 asciilifeform even garbage collector.
13:21 asciilifeform and arithmetic stack...
13:21 asciilifeform more or less ideal example of ye olde 'greenspun's law'
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