Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2020-01-12 | 2020-01-14 →
08:32 feedbot << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog -- Week 2 2020 Review - A Very Qntra Week
~ 4 hours 51 minutes ~
13:24 feedbot << Ossa Sepia -- Notes on Computer Graphics - A Map of Sorts
~ 3 hours 12 minutes ~
16:36 shinohai <<< Now lives at
16:36 snsabot Logged on 2020-01-12 18:25:25 asciilifeform: shinohai: do you have a mirror for that one ? plox to link
16:37 asciilifeform ty shinohai
16:37 Apocalyptic shinohai: great stuff, I have also tested litmus to check clearsigned msg and works a++
16:37 shinohai neato Apocalyptic
16:38 * shinohai will upload his makefile vpatch as soon as he fixes 1-2 more things and resigns
16:40 Apocalyptic asciilifeform, a minor inconvenience in, on my system /bin/sh is symlinked to dash, and it seems to barf at line 151 "FILES=(...)", which looks like a bashism to me (unsure). Changing the interpreter to /bin/bash fixed the issue
16:41 asciilifeform Apocalyptic: i'ma look. ( item is intended to work in plain sh )
16:43 asciilifeform fwiw worx as-written on my gentoos (where no such symlink)
16:43 Apocalyptic dash throws: "./ 151: ./ Syntax error: "(" unexpected
16:45 asciilifeform Apocalyptic: atm i dun have any boxes w/ 'dash' ; does it die elsewhere if the 'test externals' routine commented out ?
16:46 shinohai i never use anything besides sh or bash, so have no clue
16:47 Apocalyptic I guess the (..) construct is not POSIX-compliant. asciilifeform it dies way before 'test externals' which begins at line 219
16:49 asciilifeform will have to get hold of a posix-strict shell somehow and iron these out.
16:50 shinohai Discord found to be decrypting users E2E encrypted chats and voice messages, then re-encrypting and send packets along their merry way.
16:50 shinohai Why no surprise?
16:50 asciilifeform shinohai: i admit that not familiar with how subj worked
16:50 Apocalyptic shinohai: megalulz
16:51 asciilifeform in what sense was it 'e2e' if vendor can decrypt ?
16:51 shinohai Discord is like this alt-irc for "gamerz" or whatever.
16:51 shinohai was popular haunt of douchebag iirc, perhaps danielpbarron had church chan there?
16:52 * asciilifeform not used, outside of salt mines, oddball proprietary aol-style 'chats' in many yrs, so not up to date on the zoology
16:52 Apocalyptic it's still very popular in crypto "trading groups" these days, where owner charges BTC to post advice
16:53 asciilifeform lol!
16:54 shinohai Telegram is only heathen chat I use for "cryptocurrency" chats, and is relatively easy to make logbot for
16:55 Apocalyptic shinohai, I wanted to try Telegram once, but they ask for a mandatory phone number to register if I remember correctly
16:55 Apocalyptic now wtf they need that info for is still unclear to me
16:56 * asciilifeform historically solves this 'problem' mp-style -- 'folx who insist on using oddball heathen chats, aint worth talking with'
16:56 shinohai i used throwaway google voice #
16:56 shinohai But no, outside of irc, no "real" conversation occurs.
16:57 danielpbarron still got a chan there and it's quite busy
16:58 shinohai I think last time I was on Discord was when I met the subgenii folx that made an altcoin, chan alwayz ded
16:59 feedbot << The Tar Pit -- 2019 in review
17:07 asciilifeform danielpbarron: what's the win from having it in a proprietary chat thing vs ordinary irc ?
~ 51 minutes ~
17:58 feedbot << Qntra -- Rhodium Prices Nearing 2008 Highs
18:07 feedbot << Ossa Sepia -- A Puppet
18:12 shinohai "Life imitates Art far more than Art imitates Life" (tm) (Wilde)
18:17 * asciilifeform presently wondering if there actually is such a thing available as a 'pure posix shell' and, if so, whether is possible to write nontrivial proggies in it
18:18 asciilifeform shinohai: for context -- orig. 'litmus' was to be a pythonism/perlism. but the mp people have a point there, these langs dun belong on a 'floppy-sized linux'
18:18 asciilifeform imho these hairballs oughta go away entirely, like bad dream
18:18 asciilifeform but with what replace ?
18:19 shinohai i like where conversation headed towards
18:19 asciilifeform thought, 'let's try sh'
18:19 asciilifeform but if in fact posix 'sh' dun support arrays...
18:19 asciilifeform drepperized 'bash' dun belong on a floppy linux either imho
18:21 asciilifeform this is not even to mention the can of worms re whether all the small misc. utils ('cut', 'tr', 'sed', etc) actually work consistently across various unixlikes (anyone try 'litmus' on bsd ?)
18:21 asciilifeform i decided that the only way to properly answer the q is via 'recon by fire'
18:22 danielpbarron asciilifeform, I'd rather it be on irc but nobody joins that one. I get a lot of new people joining from various discord channel promotion websites. The "win" is that I reach more people with one than the other.
18:22 asciilifeform danielpbarron: makes sense. the price for this is that 1 day the vendor might decide to ban yer thing and then wat.
18:24 danielpbarron i'm on irc too, and those who care to continue chatting with me know how to find it
18:25 asciilifeform danielpbarron: may be worth the effort to move'em to irc nao, while can still talk on $heathenchat, vs later, when not
18:26 danielpbarron i don't see the point. They have already been warned. The chat is mostly for warning new people.
18:27 * asciilifeform aint about to try to tell danielpbarron how to run his churches
18:28 shinohai i mean, discord will be consumed by same fire and brimstone sent by jehovah to destroy all the other evil places i'd suppose.
18:30 asciilifeform shinohai: i'm curious how these 'aol' appeal ~featurewise~ over trad irc, to the users
18:30 asciilifeform what's the draw ?
18:31 asciilifeform afaik lolcat icons can just as readily be pasted into irc as into these
18:31 shinohai because webshit, and "there's an app for that" ad naseum
18:31 asciilifeform there's a webchat thing on fleanode also neh
18:31 asciilifeform and pnoje apps also
18:34 shinohai I dont use Telegram app anyway, it uses libpurple, so interact via weechat/bitlbee
18:35 danielpbarron i will admit, the discord phone app is way better than irc apps -- of course i still prefer a full keyboard and my irc client on linux
~ 50 minutes ~
19:25 asciilifeform re 'sh' etc : there's a dire lack of civilized scripting lang presently.
19:25 snsabot (trilema) 2019-08-29 asciilifeform: there's imho a ~huge~ chunk of problem domain that is begging for a simple, well-specified, ~frozen~ scripting lang.
19:25 snsabot (trilema) 2019-08-29 asciilifeform: imho instead of rewriting logger for 11th time out of matchsticks and hot glue, would be better to make a proper scripting lang...
19:28 asciilifeform the problem domain where 'manipulate gigantic strings' , is quite poorly fitted by ada, esp. when written in civilized style where static memory allocations and prohibited to return strings on 'secondary stack'. (but even if outside of this style, still would result in gargantuan programs)
19:39 asciilifeform 'sh' (even supposing can find 100% standardized subset of it...) aint it. (witness the thickness of the kludge in 'litmus', where -- as 'sh' cannot operate on raw bytes of binary input in any way, need 'xxd' hexdump util as an intermediate, w/ whole hexdump text string having to live in memory. would be entirely impractical for seriously heavy files, rather than the tiny gpg sig turds)
19:41 asciilifeform in principle, can implement just about anything 'with duct tape'. even, e.g., the logger back end -- could theoretically take 'telnet' and talk to it via a sh script in 2nd process. but it will be not only ugly but will break in entirely unanticipated (and, likely, undebuggable) places on some % of envirs.
19:42 asciilifeform and will be the sort of program you will be held to answer for in hell
19:56 asciilifeform meanwhile, elsewhere, thread possib. of interest on jfw's www re isp and wot logic.
~ 16 minutes ~
20:13 asciilifeform further in re 'throw out python' : in what is one to implement items like e.g. this ? presently afaik there is no answer to this q.
~ 39 minutes ~
20:53 Apocalyptic asciilifeform: as far as I know dash is the most minimalist pure posix shell there is
20:54 Apocalyptic apparently there is a few Berkeley extensions on top of posix features, but that's all
21:09 asciilifeform Apocalyptic: and 0 support for arrays ? or is there a posixy syntax for'em ? any idea ?
21:13 Apocalyptic not a shell aficionado myself, but a search yields which has a "Working with array" section
21:13 Apocalyptic looks like ugly hacks though
21:13 asciilifeform seems to insist on eval
21:14 asciilifeform i.e. riotously ugly
21:14 asciilifeform (and, bonus, incurably exploitable)
21:19 Apocalyptic asciilifeform, see the second post of [] apparently the author had a similar question and doubts about pseudo-arrays without eval being possible
21:21 asciilifeform Apocalyptic: all of this heavily argues in favour of posix committee being an instrument of wreckers ( similar to common lisp committee ) , pushing ~deliberately~ for crippled 'standard' which the constituent vendors can then 'embrace & extend'
21:22 asciilifeform dunno whether yer into CL, but there something very similar happened in '80s -- which is how the language ended up missing basic functionality like tcp/ip in its standard
21:22 Apocalyptic no argument there, no wonder everyone uses bloated bash and co
21:22 * Apocalyptic not familiar with Lisp yet
21:24 asciilifeform seems to inescapably happen whenever vendors of ~existing~ product get to 'make standard together'
21:24 asciilifeform no shortage of examples, witness how microshit fucked 'open document'
21:24 asciilifeform or how browser vendors continue to fuck htmlism 'standards' process
21:25 Apocalyptic but "progress"
21:27 asciilifeform on the hardware side, similar 'progress', with 'standards' like 'uefi'
21:27 asciilifeform the only thing to do with these is to straight into the oven.
21:32 asciilifeform interestingly, this is also how the ada standard ended up more or less sane -- was written by indifferent bureaucrats, in age of mainframe, rather than with any input from vendors
21:34 asciilifeform ( notably, the vendors won in the end, and the usg.pentagon's imposition of ada for war machine industry was repealed. so that microshit cpp could reign. )
~ 20 minutes ~
21:54 Apocalyptic asciilifeform, since you mentioned CL, I wanted to experiment with it in the past but could not emerge dev-lisp/clisp on gentoo. I ended up with a memory-related error and couldn't fix it, so dropped the matter
21:55 Apocalyptic needless to say, the "libffcall update" didn't fix anything, apparently it's related to gcc hardening and whatnot
21:59 Apocalyptic I tried to switch between different gcc versions, including removing ssp/pie and using the vanilla gcc, but to no avail
22:12 shinohai Apocalyptic: even when just trying to build clisp from sources (or just emerge) ?
22:13 Apocalyptic I sticked to emerge
22:14 shinohai I think I recall doing *something* to clisp and emerging by hand
22:14 shinohai but looks like i didnt document, because running emerge by hand is boring lol
22:15 Apocalyptic "./ marc > marc.out" causes the error
22:23 shinohai So what, mpex still using sha1 for sigs too?
22:26 Apocalyptic shinohai, notice the heathen-gpg version too "Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux)"
22:27 shinohai tsk, tsk
~ 37 minutes ~
23:04 asciilifeform << afaik the only 2 reasonably-sane cl on pc are sbcl and ccl
23:04 snsabot Logged on 2020-01-13 21:54:40 Apocalyptic: asciilifeform, since you mentioned CL, I wanted to experiment with it in the past but could not emerge dev-lisp/clisp on gentoo. I ended up with a memory-related error and couldn't fix it, so dropped the matter
23:05 asciilifeform clisp is specifically known to be braindamaged in various ways ( chiefly -- does not include a compiler, and thus exists largely to reinforce 1970s 'lisp is slow' stereotype, near as i can tell )
23:07 asciilifeform << appears to be so
23:07 snsabot Logged on 2020-01-13 22:23:10 shinohai: So what, mpex still using sha1 for sigs too?
23:08 asciilifeform if i were a subscriber, i'd find this irritating; but i aint..
23:11 asciilifeform shinohai: from asciilifeform's ancient archives. at one time mpex used not only sha1 but a 160 bit (!) ~dsa~ pubkey !
23:11 asciilifeform ( when ? when had the demo acct , 2013 )
23:13 shinohai O.o
23:13 asciilifeform i aint about to laff at folx for what they were doing in 2000s re crypto, pretty much erryone was on kindergarten stage
23:14 asciilifeform but imho is strange that even nao some folx sha1 ( and koch gpg 2.x )
23:14 shinohai I was abt to say the gpg 2x is inexcusable
23:14 asciilifeform ask not me but author of thing (mp) .
23:17 asciilifeform at least he had pgp-eater rather than sslism, afaik all the other bitcoin xyzetc's were (and to this day are) stuck w/ sslism joke
23:24 asciilifeform this played a necessary part in asciilifeform taking an interest when mp & co. wrote in and 'try our mpex', 'visit our irc chan'. 100% of errybody else involved in bitcoinism were screamingly subhuman
23:25 asciilifeform to this day i have exactly 0 interest in what the 'bitcoin community' sitting on 'discord' and 'telegram' and 'cryptoing' with ssl, do, or say on any subj
23:28 shinohai It's decidedly boring, irc still the great refuge.
23:33 asciilifeform shinohai: will admit, 90% of asciilifeform's initial interest in the subj was 'perhaps nao someone will give half a shit re quality of software'. but even this, questionable
23:34 Apocalyptic I agree with shinohai, nothing remotely of interest is happening on those heathen-chats
23:36 asciilifeform even possible, imho, that bitcoin is a long-term intellectual disaster in the same sense as unix. i.e. endlessly imitated, never meaningfully improved, for generations
23:39 asciilifeform ( specifically as described in the infamous 'worse is better' article )
23:40 asciilifeform err, the correct link to orig piece
23:43 Apocalyptic asciilifeform: by ccl you mean dev-lisp/clozurecl, right ?
23:43 asciilifeform aha
23:43 Apocalyptic will try to emerge that instead then
23:45 Apocalyptic worx like a charm
23:46 asciilifeform Apocalyptic: when you build a gentoo ebuild and 'worx', save the tarballs. guaranteed that in N yrs, will need'em, when 'progress' catches up with $proggy and 'ugh not builds, needs xyz deps..'
23:47 Apocalyptic noted
23:48 Apocalyptic seeing the retardation on gentoo from 2016 I'm afraid every time I'm syncing the tree
23:48 asciilifeform for that matter, ' asciilifeform's gentoo ' consists 100% of this .
23:48 asciilifeform Apocalyptic: i no longer 'sync' under any circumstances .
23:49 asciilifeform see also.
23:49 snsabot Logged on 2019-12-09 22:27:27 asciilifeform: danielpbarron: the reason why must NOT 'emerge --sync' is that gentoo's upstream went full-bore tard in late '17. if you sync, 'emerge' simply becomes paperweight, as no longer accepts the systemdism-ban flags
23:50 Apocalyptic yeah I did sync but did not upgrade @world
23:51 asciilifeform 'emerge --sync' specifically 'voids warranty' on ' asciilifeform's gentoo ' ( incl. rk variant ) .
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