Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2018-01-24 | 2018-01-26 → ↓
01:00 hanbot http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1775981 >> can grab http://thewhet.net/testickle/mp-wp_genesis.vpatch & http://thewhet.net/testickle/mp-wp_genesis.vpatch.hanbot.sig ; pubkey's on about page if you need it.
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01:00 a111 Logged on 2018-01-25 03:07 mod6: maybe I can try to make a quick genesis of this to see what hanbot is seeing.
01:01 hanbot meanwhile asciilifeform's vtron on hold until i get python on server, nfs apparently eschews
~ 7 hours 46 minutes ~
08:47 mircea_popescu in other lulz, "societatea civila" ie the 50k or so blue state worshipping orclets left in romania are being publicly humiliated these days, on live television : http://adevarul.ro/news/politica/codrin-Stefanescu-despre-surprizele-noul-guvern-psd-8_5a6852a0df52022f75d04ace/index.html
08:47 mircea_popescu moneyshot : "Pozitiv pentru dvs nu înseamnă pozitiv pentru societatea civilă."
08:47 mircea_popescu "Societatea civilă este partea aia mare din România care ne-a votat şi ne-a dat această împuternicire. Cei de la #rezist, dacă vor să facă un partid unic, cu Kovesi preşedinte, prim-ministru şi împărat, trebuie să vină cu acest program în faţa românilor să-l voteze. Dacă românii vor o ţară cu #rezist, schimbăm şi steagul şi imnul cu #, iar noi ceilalţi ne aplecăm cu respect. Cât nu sunt votaţi şi
08:47 mircea_popescu au 5%, cu tot SRI-ul în spate, cu Coldea cu tot, nu poţi să vii să faci program şi să implementezi nişte idei pentru cealaltă mare majoritate care formează 50% sau 60% şi care a votat."
08:48 shinohai It's official, I cannot make sense of Romanian before coffee.
08:50 mircea_popescu all i can say is http://trilema.com/2016/o-hey-is-it-november-yet/
08:53 mircea_popescu (kovesi btw, is the http://trilema.com/in-case-you-were-wondering-where-all-the-worthless-nuland-drones-ended-up in ro, if it weren't obvious)
08:55 mircea_popescu shinohai basically it's "for as long as your secret service powered nonsense gets 2% of the vote, you can go jump in the lake". the (obviously transparent) implication being that secret services principally exist as usg influence agents these days, and are getting beheaded pretty much everywhere, from myanmar to galicia and from gdansk to bucharest.
08:57 shinohai I like waking up to good news!
08:57 mircea_popescu anyway, fighting the wars of yesterday. used to be, in yonder prehistory before republican times, that secret service ~= victory.
08:58 mircea_popescu these days... heh.
09:00 asciilifeform eh aint the cia torture palace and usg naval base still open there ?
09:01 mircea_popescu naval base certainly.
09:02 mircea_popescu understand how this works : usg comes to buy an apple for $1000 because it imagines it'll pay $1000 to itself and get an apple. then it turns out it can't take the $1000 and gets butthurt.
09:02 mircea_popescu same deal everywhere.
09:04 mircea_popescu "oh, corrupt politicians & terrorists stole our moneyz" and so on.
09:07 asciilifeform followed by ukrization aha
09:09 mircea_popescu conceivably. there's a few options : ukraine went one way ; turkey went another way ; and greece went yet a third way.
09:10 mircea_popescu whether "a nation" is actually unfit to exist, rather a political figment than a substantial thing ; or on the contrary quite apt to live and thrive and with things yet to say ; or finally long exhausted and entirely dedicated by now to programatic laziness and the comfort seeking of senescence is an open problem
09:11 mircea_popescu but to be resolved by the group in question, neither i nor putin nor whatever papie mache in washington is going to decide this for them.
09:12 asciilifeform i meant attempted ukrization, rather than necessarily that particular result. but yes
09:12 mircea_popescu well sure. as you sit there right now typing at me, mosquitoes try to mosquitoize you, staph tries to staph you and so on.
09:13 asciilifeform aha
09:13 mircea_popescu i do not expect us army could actually come out of a field encounter with ro army as things stand right now ; but then again http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1775860
09:13 a111 Logged on 2018-01-25 00:09 mircea_popescu: will eat my left foot will eat. legions do not cross the rubicon because the "emperor" knows full well they'll join the barbarians the next night.
09:14 mircea_popescu (the sheer ridoinculousness of this, where usg has managed to recrearte for it in 2018 the situation of thje ottoman empire in 1878 is something everyone's quite pointedly invited to meditate upon. PANTSUITISM DOES NOT WORK, and stop asking women. anything.)
09:15 mircea_popescu america was built by men who did not ask women, anything, and ruined by boys who did.
~ 22 minutes ~
09:37 BingoBoingo http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1775879 << Gracias, it is in the ledger.
09:37 a111 Logged on 2018-01-25 00:36 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo : they're getting $7150, should cover whatever fees / maybe a little leftover. 0.63202778 goes on your books on the right side.
09:39 mircea_popescu done with teh local tradings ?
09:39 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> here's one example : he calls it "the most serene republic of bitcoin", which was the style at the time. but in practice we omit the bitcoin part most often than not don't we. << If I recall there was a moment somewhere involving miner retardation where there was a discussion of the necessary subordination of Bitcoin to the Republic. Bitcoin's need of a republic is not necessarily reciprocated and all.
09:40 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Lining some more up over the weekend.
09:40 mircea_popescu cool, make a post when they're all done.
09:40 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo something like that yeah.
09:42 BingoBoingo After the first, figured a short wait after the first trade would be a test of gossip speed. Curious if news of a gringo spreads and all. Or if they have a club, etc.
09:42 mircea_popescu sure.
09:45 diana_coman ugh, that codrin stefanescu was at some point with glorious ideas ~="all I care about is that my family is doing well, the rest doesn't matter"
09:47 diana_coman I guess that might make him more sincere than the others but not in any discernible way a better option as far as I can see
09:48 mircea_popescu comes from vadim's corner, at that.
09:49 mircea_popescu anyway, i'm not proposing here that romania is somehow respectable or has a clue ; or that X random dork is my butt buddy now. all i'm saying is, "look yonder in the reservation for mongoloids of this particular orc breed, the pantsuit kid is getting his head punched in!"
09:55 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/Np6fj/?raw=true
~ 33 minutes ~
10:28 mircea_popescu sooo i just discovered i somehow am missing tyhe images in http://trilema.com/2015/fuck-you-and-your-stupid-epub-also-david-thornes-2nd-book-it-isnt-really-very-good/ ?!
10:28 mircea_popescu plox if anyone ever notices missing images / broken links / whatever in trilema say something, this isn't supposed to occur.
10:28 * mircea_popescu now gets to spend whole morning as best case scenario figuring out what the holy shit happened.
10:28 shinohai lol mircea_popescu ... broken image link goes to an article!!!! http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/image074.jpeg
10:29 shinohai Or does it just redirect to random article when item isn't found?
10:30 mircea_popescu soft 404s yes
10:33 mod6 http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1775994 << thanks hanbot. I'll grab this and try to press with it starting with version 99994. We'll see what happens. If all is well, then will also try version 99993.
10:33 a111 Logged on 2018-01-25 06:00 hanbot: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1775981 >> can grab http://thewhet.net/testickle/mp-wp_genesis.vpatch & http://thewhet.net/testickle/mp-wp_genesis.vpatch.hanbot.sig ; pubkey's on about page if you need it.
10:37 mod6 lol 'testickle'
10:37 mircea_popescu hanbot http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/trYpV/?raw=true asciilifeform http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/C4Fs0/?raw=true
10:41 deedbot http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/01/25/eucrypt-chapter-7-keccak-sponge/ << Ossasepia - EuCrypt Chapter 7: Keccak Sponge
10:42 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: got it; worx!
10:42 asciilifeform and np.
10:42 spyked mircea_popescu: sent a couple of pingbacks to trilema, seems to have worked (though I don't see them, it might be that they're currently in the moderation queue). output and script at http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/LZVEr/?raw=true lemme know if they show up anywhere in your wp
10:42 diana_coman phf, the newly published chapter 7 in eucrypt is the keccak sponge but it turns out that I'll still change it from inside out for next week
10:43 diana_coman the trouble with current version is that it's still messed up by endianness (the keccak constants are 64 bit *values* rather than bit streams)
10:44 mircea_popescu spyked all good.
10:46 asciilifeform diana_coman: waitasec : what makes you think that your keccak is sensitive to endianness ?
10:46 diana_coman next week's version of the sponge will be changed so that it works at bit level *everywhere*, idiotic constants included
10:46 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the damned constants
10:46 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: this is not necessarily so
10:46 diana_coman asciilifeform, constants are stored as numbers on 64 bits at the moment
10:46 mircea_popescu but it could be.
10:46 asciilifeform mircea_popescu, diana_coman : if you don't byte-address, it does not matter whether you use constants, you are not endian-sensitive
10:46 diana_coman I will just store them as array of bits
10:47 mircea_popescu asciilifeform look, she dun sleep well and i can see why not.
10:47 mircea_popescu you end up with a rotated octet you're fucked.
10:47 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it is important to grasp what endiannessism IS
10:47 diana_coman asciilifeform, hm, that was my initial approach: as long as all of them are stored same endianness theoretically the bits fit correctly
10:47 asciilifeform diana_coman: endianism only comes into play if you address individual bytes
10:47 mircea_popescu ti si mioptrna t for the fucking idiocy to not exist in the first place
10:48 mircea_popescu because "important " != "mioptrna t".
10:48 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: to make it unexist, gotta understand what it is
10:48 diana_coman but I admit I am not 100% at ease that all the scramblings result in same thing; and moreover yes, I don't see the reason WHY it should be there
10:48 mircea_popescu i am of a very good mind to forbid non-concepts like "byte" in computing in the first place.
10:48 asciilifeform diana_coman: this part i cannot cure , hashing as it stands is an exercise in voodoo
10:49 mircea_popescu it turns out, check this inept shit out, IT TURNS OUT that the ACTUAL REASON why "characters are not bytes" is actually and in point of fact BECAUSE BYTES ARENT ANYTHING.
10:49 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the basic problem of 'how wide apart the rails on the railroad' doesn't go away , regardless of what you set the knobs to
10:50 mircea_popescu fuck that. i do not set any knobs or put them in.
10:50 mircea_popescu there will be a bit and not more. the possibility of " and a machine word = bus size" went away when they failed to implement it correctly.
10:51 asciilifeform aite, mircea_popescu gets a 1bit bus and 4096b rsa op takes 25 years.
10:51 mircea_popescu fine,
10:51 mircea_popescu but in practice, it turns out i get ffa and other things, because my friends love me even more than i love myself.
10:52 asciilifeform before we start feeding asciilifeform's machine arch crackpotteries again ( he dun mind at all..) let's determine whether diana_coman actually has an endianism problem ?
10:52 mircea_popescu diana_coman doesn't know that she doesn't have one.
10:52 diana_coman ^^^^
10:52 asciilifeform same thing neh
10:52 mircea_popescu neh.
10:52 diana_coman not quite same thing, no
10:52 asciilifeform worse, even
10:53 asciilifeform i'ma read diana_coman's proggy and come back .
11:01 asciilifeform diana_coman: BitsToWord and WordToBits are not endianism-sensitive.
11:01 diana_coman I know, I wrote them to not be
11:02 asciilifeform i'm still looking for what is
11:04 asciilifeform diana_coman: is your current hypothesis that the iota operator is endianized ?
11:06 diana_coman if I understand correctly what you mean by that, yes; basically to start with: I'm not sure that a. as it currently stands you'll get same hash for same input on little vs big endian
11:06 diana_coman b. input is a stream of bits; depending on whether you consider that big/little, it will go to different bits of the state
11:07 diana_coman scrambling happens (at least in my mind) at bit level
11:07 asciilifeform diana_coman: as your proggy is currently written, it is only sensitive to endianism mismatch between the inputs and the endianism of the machine on which your proggy was built ( i.e. in which the round constants are stored ). this is not curable at the program level .
11:08 asciilifeform because of the way keccak is defined, the input is operated on wordwise
11:08 asciilifeform nao you could try to derive a keccak' , where it aint..
11:09 asciilifeform sorta like how ffacalc works ( observe that it does exactly same thing on all possible endianisms , even 'middle endian' ( yes exists ))
11:09 diana_coman that's how it should be!
11:09 asciilifeform nao diana_coman knows why asciilifeform favours crackpotteries like numbertheoretical hashing etc.
11:10 diana_coman and I don't quite see why wouldn't keccak operate on input bitwise
11:10 asciilifeform cuz slow
11:10 diana_coman hm
11:11 asciilifeform ( it was written, recall, not in empty space but for usg's contest. and 1 of the demands was 'not much slower than older hashes' )
11:13 asciilifeform diana_coman: all of this being said, if you can guarantee that the endianism of the input matches the endianism of the roundconstants -- you get correct answer. otherwise not.
11:13 diana_coman myeah
11:13 asciilifeform this problem was a serious headache for the tcp/ip people, they solved it mircea_popescu-style, 'fuckyou and errything going over the wire is to be bigendian' (at the time, bigendianism dominated in 'serious' iron)
11:13 asciilifeform !~google network byte order
11:14 jhvh1 asciilifeform: Endianness - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness>; Network byte order and host byte order - IBM: <https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSB27U_6.4.0/com.ibm.zvm.v640.kiml0/asonetw.htm>; Unix Socket Network Byte Orders - TutorialsPoint: <https://www.tutorialspoint.com/unix_sockets/network_byte_orders.htm>
11:14 diana_coman I suppose the "patch" would be to check endianism at runtime and use the correct constants as it were; I ...still don't see why should I have endianism in there to start with
11:14 asciilifeform ugh shitgoogle as usual
11:14 asciilifeform diana_coman: you can't 'check endianism', you gotta know from where the input came to know its endianism
11:14 asciilifeform endianism is not an attribute discernible from a pile of bits
11:14 diana_coman ah, of input, right
11:14 asciilifeform aha.
11:15 asciilifeform what you can do, is either a) operate bitwise, ffa-style. b) mandate an endianism for the data format. and since you know the endianism of the machine you're building on, in particular build, you know whether the machine's is opposite or same as the data's.
11:16 asciilifeform so in b) you either flip ( opposites ) endiannesses of all inputs, or not flip ( same endianness ).
11:16 mircea_popescu so we end up with a make that alters code ?
11:16 asciilifeform this is how the problem is traditionally solved.
11:16 mircea_popescu this is a gate that dun belong open.
11:16 mircea_popescu "here's the source ; check to see it is correct ; and here's how your builder will fuck it up for you by replacing constants"
11:16 mircea_popescu holy hell what!
11:16 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: actually no
11:16 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gnat_rm/Effect-of-Bit_005fOrder-on-Byte-Ordering.html
11:17 asciilifeform ( tldr : ada tells you the endianism of the box you're on )
11:17 mircea_popescu portably and certainly ?
11:17 diana_coman this is why I said earlier "check endianism at runtime" because yes, in ada you can get that
11:17 diana_coman but "In this section we will review the effect of the Bit_Order attribute definition clause on byte ordering. Briefly, it has no effect at all, but a detailed example will be helpful" this is gold
11:17 asciilifeform ( and if it didn't -- it ain't hard to determine it mechanically . i will leave it as exercise how )
11:18 mircea_popescu otherwise you could just check to see if 0F is smaller or larger than F0 obviously
11:18 asciilifeform endianism dun exist inside byte lol
11:18 mircea_popescu o good grief. must i include all the 0s ?
11:18 asciilifeform it exists as order in which bytes inside word appear
11:18 asciilifeform but i think mircea_popescu gets it
11:18 diana_coman trouble is ...why is it worth having this headache to start with
11:18 asciilifeform and yes the Bit_Order thing works, all kinds stuff would immediately liquify if it didn't
11:18 mircea_popescu o hey, i hadn't noticed that they DIDNT LIQUIFY
11:19 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: not in ada planet.
11:19 asciilifeform diana_coman: the short version is that the cpu is a physical object. this is an eternal and incurable headache for programmerz, yes
11:19 mircea_popescu well in any case, there's a week to sort this mess out.
11:20 asciilifeform i described the two known pills ( without endorsing a particular one ) against endianism. afaik there is not a third.
11:20 asciilifeform ( other than to bake own iron with 1bit busses etc )
11:20 mircea_popescu diana_coman i would right now like to, for a great piece i'm writing, link to "The choice of Ada as programming language for this implementation" specifically out of all http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/01/25/eucrypt-chapter-7-keccak-sponge/ because that's the sort of fine tuned context linkage i use. wut do ?
11:21 diana_coman mircea_popescu, ugh, I'll have to put in those link for selection, won't I
11:21 mircea_popescu i wouldn't go so far as have to, but it is a fact it'd help me in this point.
11:21 asciilifeform btw,
11:21 asciilifeform ' for Data'Bit_Order use High_Order_First;
11:21 asciilifeform and the effect is what is desired, namely the layout is exactly the same, independent of whether the code is compiled on a big-endian or little-endian machine. '
11:22 asciilifeform ( i recommend to diana_coman and even to mircea_popescu to read the linked doc )
11:22 * diana_coman will read; and then re-read
11:23 asciilifeform btw iirc trinque has a bigendian machine with a working gnat.
11:24 asciilifeform for answering mircea_popescu's 'but does it actually work' .
11:24 asciilifeform ( attach a dynamo to dijkstra's corpse prior to testing, yes 'oughta tell From First Principles!111' )
11:29 mircea_popescu wait wait, i might have a pill
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11:30 mircea_popescu we could actually declare big endian notation to be WRONG, on the grounds it's inconsistent.
11:30 * asciilifeform was waiting for this
11:32 asciilifeform possibly worth reviewing why people even came up with bigendianism. it was partly from 'can test sign bit by looking at zeroth byte' , and partly the ben_vulpes ( from #trilema-mod6 log linked 2d ago ) problem -- 'let's store words in the order in which they get printed'
11:32 mod6 hanbot: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/HrKA1/?raw=true << Here is what I know, for now. There are some comments at the bottom.
11:32 mircea_popescu to make the full argument here in plain text :
11:33 ben_vulpes mod6: magic strings in the b64!
11:33 mod6 what's weird is that it actually output that in the pressed file.
11:34 mod6 something strange is happening.
11:34 ben_vulpes did it also crap out hanbot's .orig files?
11:34 hanbot mod6 thanks very much for looking --that error was 2nd headscratcher for me. phf's vdiff.sh was used to make this, fwiw
11:34 mircea_popescu big endianism is the proposition of taking a pile of bits, and sorting them such that they representing larger powers of two are later than those representing smaller powers of two ; but only for chunks of bits of an arbitrary lengths ; chunks longer are ordered in ~the contrary fashion~, so ab is to be ordered as ba by this scheme, but abcd is to be ordered as badc.
11:36 mircea_popescu because it rotates this way it is therefore not a valid encoding and case closed.
11:37 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the 'philosophically consistent' ( hey kurchatov! ) method is: little-endianism . but with it, you're stuck loading a whole parcel to test its sign bit ( i dun give a fuck, personally , on modern iron ) but -- unless yer an arab -- flipping words prior to printing , in the civilized style, left to right
11:37 mod6 ben_vulpes: yes, i found this one in the genesis: +(function(A){A.widget("ui.draggable",A.extend({},A.ui.mouse,{init:function(){var B=t
11:37 mod6 crap, ignore that'
11:37 mod6 this: diff -uNr a/mpwp/blog/wp-comments-post.php.orig b/mpwp/blog/wp-comments-post.php.orig
11:38 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i don't understand the argument. so you write left to right, so what does this say ?
11:38 asciilifeform i'll confess , i'm with mircea_popescu on this one, how much time is spent printing and testing sign bits ?
11:38 hanbot mod6 there should be one orig, is in the mp-wp i was handed
11:38 hanbot the issue i had yest was *all* files got a copy named filename.orig
11:38 mod6 hanbot: ok. let me take a look here...
11:38 mircea_popescu the whole edifice is rotten. special order ? if they wanted this SHOULD HAVE CHANGED THE SIGN BIT POSITION OMFG
11:39 mircea_popescu diana_coman http://trilema.com/2015/that-spiffy-selection-thing/ ftr.
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11:39 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i'd like to see your algo for 2s-complement add/sub for a hypothetical box where sign bit is not the senior bit
11:40 asciilifeform ( it ain't impossible. but i can't immediately think of an economical method )
11:40 mod6 hanbot: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/t0piX/?raw=true << looks that way -- however, keep in mind the entire press did not finish, so hard to say that there couln't have been more if something else wouldn't have puked from hunks or whatever.
11:40 mircea_popescu asciilifeform do it shift two and carry the last bit adequately ?
11:40 asciilifeform on every word access ?!
11:41 mircea_popescu on every add. what, the cost of the shift is the issue here ?
11:41 asciilifeform it does cost.
11:41 mircea_popescu i do noit dispute it does cost, but so does this other isnanity.
11:41 asciilifeform errything -- costs.
11:42 mircea_popescu if there were a costless thing, by all means. but "between saving for six months to afford the thing i need and "buying" this other thing i don't need on easy rates i choose the former" though ?!
11:42 asciilifeform i dun actually disagree with mircea_popescu : i never liked bigendianism . but it did come from a particular cost analysis , ftr.
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11:42 mircea_popescu show me where this cost analysis is published.
11:42 hanbot mod6 yeah, makes sense
11:42 mircea_popescu because afaik this is a whisperer's product and it THEREFORE carries no weight.
11:43 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i hatetobreakittoya, but WHOLE FUCKING pseudoengineering kompyooting thing, is 'whisperproduct'
11:43 mircea_popescu awww. so that means i can say whatever and nobody has any ground to stand on and argue "his" way ?
11:43 mircea_popescu such a disadvantage this puts me at, seriously!
11:43 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: and most of the knob params are of the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1775939 kind.
11:43 a111 Logged on 2018-01-25 02:09 mircea_popescu: this is like saying guillotining the neck rather than the mandible or the shoulderblades is completely arbitrary.
11:43 mircea_popescu how i regret it! every day i mourn it! they wounded me so very deeply, these idiots, with their idiotic misbehaviour! to the very core of my being i suffer for their failure to have ammounted to a hill of beans!
11:47 asciilifeform btw arm and mips have toggles for endianism
11:49 asciilifeform ( further reading for aficionados : http://www.yarchive.net/comp/endian.html , http://yarchive.net/comp/linux/bitfields.html )
11:52 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: re the 'guillotine neck vs mandible', if it ain't obvious, i'll spell it out ftr : bigendian nums look 'ffaistic' when hexdumped, i.e. correct . littleendian -- you gotta mentally flip'em.
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11:52 asciilifeform whether this matters, is obviously arbitrary q.
11:52 mircea_popescu show me this ?
11:53 asciilifeform aite, let's:
11:53 * asciilifeform preparing snippet, brb
11:58 asciilifeform ok, here goeth :
11:59 asciilifeform #include <stdio.h>
11:59 asciilifeform void main() {
11:59 asciilifeform int i = 0x01234567;
11:59 asciilifeform fwrite(&i, sizeof(i), 1, stdout);
11:59 asciilifeform }
11:59 asciilifeform gcc -o endian thisitem.c
11:59 asciilifeform and afterwards, ./endian | hexdump -C
12:00 asciilifeform try this on littleendian and bigendian box.
12:00 asciilifeform try likewise with 'long' instead of 'int', to see effect on 64bit parcel
12:01 asciilifeform i'll spoil it for littleendian :
12:01 asciilifeform 67 45 23 01
12:07 mircea_popescu right.
12:07 mircea_popescu the other one does ~this same thing~ but ~to the machine~.
12:07 asciilifeform aha!!
12:07 mircea_popescu well...
12:08 mircea_popescu this is back to the glyphs discussion all over again. "fix your printer!"
12:08 asciilifeform if we wrote like arabs, there've been no controversy, i bet
12:08 asciilifeform *there'dve been
12:08 mircea_popescu poor arabs, they invented all this shit, we ran with it with our inept ways and nearly fucked it into the ground
12:08 asciilifeform more or less.
12:08 mircea_popescu and somehow THEY'RE supposed to be the uncivilised orcs.
12:08 asciilifeform the sad part re inventing things.
12:09 asciilifeform fwiw the deep historicalcrackpots seem to think it wasn't even arabs, but the now-vanished aryans or whoever.
12:10 asciilifeform but the point stands.
12:10 mircea_popescu twas the arabs, they got 0 from india and it sparked.
12:10 mircea_popescu much like xtians got gunpowder from china and it sparked.
12:11 * asciilifeform has nfi
12:11 mircea_popescu (steam engine existed because metalworking, and the metalworking involved exists because cannons. industrial revolution is the result of having stolen gunpowder.)
12:11 asciilifeform oh hah i misparsed 'got 0' lol
12:11 asciilifeform but yes
12:16 hanbot mircea_popescu: hanbot http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/trYpV/?raw=true << got it; no matches
12:23 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-11#1234154 << this is such an epic tidbit btw...
12:23 a111 Logged on 2015-08-11 03:24 asciilifeform: 'ONE way of feeling infallible is not to keep a diary. Looking back through the diary I kept in 1940 and 1941 I find that I was usually wrong when it was possible to be wrong. Yet I was not so wrong as the Military Experts. Experts of various schools were telling us in 1939 that the Maginot Line was impregnable, and that the Russo-German Pact had put an end to Hitler’s eastwards expansion; in early 1940 they were telling us
12:23 asciilifeform orlol
12:23 asciilifeform err, orwell
12:23 mircea_popescu aha.
12:25 mircea_popescu hmm, where the hell is the place where i say the father's responsibility to his daughter is to shove a pound of raw prime beef down her throat every day and naught else ?
↖
12:25 asciilifeform it was in a trilema article
12:25 mircea_popescu ah was it ?
12:27 asciilifeform it was
12:30 asciilifeform ( i dun have a greppable trilema here, so can't immediately say where )
12:30 mircea_popescu i do and i still can't ;/
12:44 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/carnita/ ?
12:44 mircea_popescu nah, that's just a reference to an old romulus vulpescu translation of decameron
12:45 asciilifeform in other finds, unlike google, yandex indexes ~all of trilema
12:45 asciilifeform so potentially findable there, if only anybody remembered the actual phrasing
12:50 trinque hm, I have a transaction for which trb considers the CTransaction "vin" vector to be empty, but which clearly has an input.
12:50 trinque appears I've got a bug
12:50 asciilifeform trinque: which trb is this
12:50 asciilifeform ( modified ? if so how? or a well-known press ? or wat )
12:51 hanbot mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/2017/genetics-proposes-the-environment-disposes/ if it's still useful
12:51 mircea_popescu holy shit yes!
12:51 mircea_popescu tyvm
12:51 trinque asciilifeform: makefiles + polarbeard sendrawtx
12:52 trinque totally possible it's in the polarbearded portion. I'm digging
12:52 trinque though I don't see how he'd have borked tx parsing
12:52 asciilifeform trinque: plox to describe the experimental setup ( not pedantism for the sake of pedantism, this, it's important )
12:54 asciilifeform trinque: which eggog, exactly , do you get ?
12:54 asciilifeform 'CTransaction::CheckTransaction() : vin empty' ?
12:54 trinque ./main.cpp: return DoS(10, error("CTransaction::CheckTransaction() : vin empty"));
12:55 asciilifeform and http://btcbase.org/patches/polarbeard_add_sendrawtransaction_rpc is the press point ?
12:55 trinque pressed to makefiles then patched polarbeard atop manually
12:56 asciilifeform but with ^this patch ? or another ?
12:56 trinque the same
12:57 trinque I don't see that he does anything to transaction parsing there
12:57 trinque just does so.
12:58 asciilifeform i gotta ask : how didja generate the txturd
12:58 asciilifeform ( is it possible that it got cut or mutilated ? )
12:59 trinque other tools say it's a normal tx, and see the input
12:59 asciilifeform right, but is there any diff b/w how trinque fed it to 'other tool' and how he fed to this one
12:59 trinque nope, tx bin hex slurped from qr code
13:00 asciilifeform or was this a process flow that worked 9000 times before, and otherwise virginal
13:00 trinque ^
13:00 asciilifeform is tx of unusual size ?
13:00 trinque naw, 1 input, 2 outputs
13:00 asciilifeform hm, interesting
13:00 asciilifeform and, importantly -- what is the node's height ?
13:01 asciilifeform ( and what was the generating node's ? )
13:01 trinque hm. winner winner chicken dinner. -3k blocks
13:01 asciilifeform ding.
13:01 asciilifeform caseclosed.
13:03 trinque what a terrible error message.
↖
13:03 * trinque throws that on the TODOs
13:04 asciilifeform dunno, it was enuff for asciilifeform to say what was the eggog
13:04 asciilifeform but i'll agree that 'empty' is idiotic way to describe it
13:04 trinque indistinguishable from bad parse
13:04 asciilifeform it ain't 'empty', just orphanistic.
13:05 asciilifeform 'this tx may have come from parallel universe, we won't know until we intern its parents'
13:05 trinque mhm, and this is an input that was change more recently than 3k blox
13:05 asciilifeform clearly.
13:07 * asciilifeform finds the 'tx references outputs of old tx, rather than addrs' to be a profoundly trisomistic shitoshiism -- but we can come back to this at next 'trb-i' thread
~ 35 minutes ~
13:42 trinque heh, 0.0005 confirms instantly now. aren't we all glad the shitheads got their gigablocks
13:45 mircea_popescu wait, what ?!
13:47 deedbot http://trilema.com/2018/the-principal-agent-problem-or-how-america-went-away/ << Trilema - The principal-agent problem, or how America went away
13:49 trinque I just fired a garden variety tx and it confirmed in the next block, 0.0005 fee
13:49 mircea_popescu oh, i missed some sarcasm did i
13:51 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1776288 << it is at that.
13:51 a111 Logged on 2018-01-25 18:03 trinque: what a terrible error message.
14:01 asciilifeform trinque: do you know of a particular reason why you have a -3k node ? ( it is a young node, not yet grown ? or -- blackholed ? which )
14:03 trinque nope, this was the deedbot node. each time it happens, there are many external connections, and each time a restart brings it back to the top.
14:04 trinque I do not have a hypothesis yet
14:04 asciilifeform trinque: what patch set on this node ?
14:04 trinque this is the node we were discussing, makefiles.vpatch + polarbeard
14:04 asciilifeform ( i.e. does it have the sync retardation cure )
14:04 trinque it does not
14:04 asciilifeform cuz if not, this is elementary
14:05 trinque wasn't that patch marked experimental?
14:05 asciilifeform asciilifeform's working node has been 100% free of 'falls behind and cured by restart' since patched.
14:05 asciilifeform trinque: indeed i marked it as experimental. did not know if, e.g., prb would shun the patched nodes, say
14:05 asciilifeform nowadays i dun see any reason not to mainline it
14:06 * trinque will be happy to start using the mainline version.
14:06 asciilifeform ( iirc mod6 also has a node with it, runs smoothly, talk with him. possibly ben_vulpes also )
14:06 trinque I intend for deedbot's node to always reflect current trb's behavior
14:06 * asciilifeform can't find any argument against this
14:06 asciilifeform the old sync behaviour is profoundly retarded tho, asciilifeform felt quite stupid for not having fixed it in the first yr of trb's life
14:07 asciilifeform the 'boot time is SPESHUL' is an idjit winblowzism
14:07 asciilifeform for which there can be NO justification.
14:07 ben_vulpes was a pretty neatly surgical fix, i gotta say
14:08 ben_vulpes given the evolution of 'v', and that the act of pressing is a private, intimate one, does "current trb's behavior" make much sense anymore?
14:08 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: well considering that it only snips off an obvious birth wart
14:09 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: there is such a thing as ' ben_vulpes & mod6 Troo Release ' !
14:09 asciilifeform recall ?
14:09 ben_vulpes more of a tumor hanging off the infant's face, but yeah
14:09 ben_vulpes yes, i do.
14:09 trinque ben_vulpes: macroexpand my statement to "I am not adding maintaining my own wad of chosen experimental patches, regrinding them each time there is a mainline release"
14:09 asciilifeform incidentally ben_vulpes , mod6 , anybody else who tested 'experimental' patch, is invited to...
14:10 asciilifeform sign it !
14:10 asciilifeform with commentary
14:10 asciilifeform e.g. 'i ran node with this for 60 d, and it worx , nomoar fallbehind' etc
14:10 asciilifeform this goes for ~all~ 'experimentals'
14:12 ben_vulpes suresure. what even means "a release" though, in a world where each patch now touches the changelog file. that eg ben_vulpes produces a patch that *only* touches the changelog, saying "the foundation makes of this link in the chain a checkpoint"?
↖
14:12 asciilifeform it means, simply enuff, whatever item ben_vulpes & mod6 proclaim 'this is a trb release'
14:12 asciilifeform for instance, a release is a suggested starting point for patch work
14:12 trinque I was supposing that experimental patches would not touch changelog, patches meant for release would edit changelog
14:13 asciilifeform trinque: this is sorta how releases work already iirc
14:13 asciilifeform in trbland
14:14 ben_vulpes i'd rather have people chose which node on which to base their patches themselves, based on their own judgement of the quality of the priors, otherwise there's a new axis of promisetronix in play
14:14 ben_vulpes that the world promises to deliver me a regrinding nightmare out of stitching together ten patches that all descend from the release patch
14:15 asciilifeform imho 'trb release' makes sense as a thing -- conservative 'this worx' item
14:15 trinque what is the foundation's role then?
↖ ↖ ↖
14:15 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes something like that works, certainly.
14:15 asciilifeform n00b wants to run trb. which trb will he run ?
↖
14:15 mircea_popescu trinque if they don't touch changelog they'll have to be reground then
14:15 ben_vulpes trinque: conservative "this works"
14:15 trinque right
14:15 mircea_popescu i suppose the idea here is to turn this into a semantic device ?
14:17 trinque editing the changelog, "mainline" would not ever have multiple leafs, aside intentional forks
14:18 trinque experimental patches meanwhile wouldn't, and the operator is invited to regrind the experimental item into a patch which edits changelog, if it's graduating out of "experimental"
14:18 ben_vulpes makes for a neat delineation between patches baked in an angry stew and those selfsame patches read in the cold light of morning and possibly even reground by others as "this works, and i propose it for inclusion in the trunk"
14:19 mircea_popescu 1. the idea to have "changelog only" patches as a signature device is a major departure from how v worked previously, it semanticizes an item that we only recently even introduced ; 2. the idea to have patches that are deliberately non-compliant so "they won't be mainline" is a solution to what i thought an inexistend problem -- why not maintain special "experumental" keys for the purpose instead, l;ike sane people ?
14:19 trinque I don't propose "changelog only"
14:19 mircea_popescu both 1 and 2 seem a rather "we'll fix the car by retrofitting horse carriage to it"
14:20 trinque I don't see that.
14:21 trinque nor where "deliberately non-compliant" comes in
14:21 trinque a C++ program is not reducible to particular files sliced out of it. it's the whole, and the filesystem state is a lie.
14:21 mircea_popescu wait a second.
14:21 trinque because human brains balk at a 500k scroll, so they chop the thing into bits
14:22 mircea_popescu hang on, hang on.
14:22 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1776178 <- it's on, thanks!
14:22 a111 Logged on 2018-01-25 16:39 mircea_popescu: diana_coman http://trilema.com/2015/that-spiffy-selection-thing/ ftr.
14:22 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1776337 << 1 is re this.
14:22 a111 Logged on 2018-01-25 19:12 ben_vulpes: suresure. what even means "a release" though, in a world where each patch now touches the changelog file. that eg ben_vulpes produces a patch that *only* touches the changelog, saying "the foundation makes of this link in the chain a checkpoint"?
14:22 mircea_popescu 2 was not actually stated by anyone, i'm just saying for the record.
14:23 trinque ah, /me backs off
14:24 mod6 <+asciilifeform> ( iirc mod6 also has a node with it, runs smoothly, talk with him. possibly ben_vulpes also ) << this in ref to >> http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2017-December/000281.html ?
14:25 asciilifeform mod6: it
14:25 mod6 My node got with 140 blocks, then promptly fell back behind about 400-500. but this is caused by my dedicated node running on spinning rust it appears. when i get a moment, I'm gonna call the DC and see if they'll throw in an ssd in there for me. that should cure it.
14:25 mod6 I'll hold off on sigs until i can confirm with ssd.
14:26 mod6 *within
14:26 asciilifeform spinning rust, at this point i dare say, is like running node on 486
14:26 asciilifeform i.e. screamingly short of the system requirements
14:26 mod6 aha. noted.
14:26 asciilifeform ( dulap had ~ok trb performance on spinning rust, but it had striped raid . and STILL couldn't keep up with ssd zoolag, despite the latter being a box the size of my fist, with no raid, on residential fiber )
14:29 asciilifeform btw i'll mention again a simple method to speed up sync (to a point) 1,000x or moar -- signed hashes ( a la the programmable checkpoint thread from 2yrs ago )
↖
14:29 mod6 for instance, i have a R610 running with ssd, and when doing eatblock (sucking in all the blocks cut up via cutblk), I can process like 15k-20k blocks per day. more importantly, the IO timings are WAAAAAY lower.
14:29 asciilifeform but the up/down sides of this method are i think obvious
14:30 mod6 so im sure that ssd will give me a huge perf boost to stay up to HEAD
14:30 mod6 if for some reason DC won't throw in a SSD, even if extra fee is paid, will find a new DC.
14:30 mod6 but, their site says they will do hardware mods via request.
14:31 mod6 so im fairly confident to get it resolved here with a simple email. will report back one way or another.
14:33 asciilifeform btw i'm still waiting for anybody to try to defend the original shitoshi sync behaviour, somehow
14:33 asciilifeform to me it looks completely indefensible.
14:34 asciilifeform WHY should boot time be special ?
14:34 asciilifeform can anyone 'devil's advocate' this one ?
14:36 diana_coman asciilifeform, no "advocate", more like explain: probably the thought was that after it starts it remains (magically!) always at the top
14:37 mircea_popescu the thought was that this runs for a coupla hours after hours on uni computer
14:37 mircea_popescu because self-effacing "nobility" of retarded white cuck.
14:37 mod6 <+asciilifeform> to me it looks completely indefensible. <+asciilifeform> WHY should boot time be special ? << aha, to me your change there seems like the Right Thing
14:42 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i am well persuaded http://trilema.com/2014/the-woes-of-altcoin-or-why-there-is-no-such-thing-as-cryptocurrencies/#footnote_2_56073 was actually satoshi's nobel/oppenheimer moment. "o noes, this is bad because i have not the balls to live!"
~ 37 minutes ~
15:20 asciilifeform diana_coman, mircea_popescu : that was my only hypothesis. i haven't another.
15:21 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the only obvious problem with 'oppenheimer' hypothesis is that shitoshi iirc walked away ~prior~ to bitcoin 'chain reaction'
15:21 mircea_popescu i don't mean it was a historical event ; just as a counterfactual.
15:21 asciilifeform aa
15:22 mircea_popescu you can sorta guess when exactly the "strong independent woman" will start bawing like a little girl on the basis of the displayed priors.
15:23 asciilifeform and for thread-completeness i gotta point out that 'Until the day Bitcoin mining uses up 50%+1 of all electricity generated on planet Earth, this theoretical avenue remains open, if very theoretical' isn't necessarily guaranteed : there always remains ( because Hashing Is Voodoo (tm) ! ) the possibility of discovering shortcut to the mining process ( we had the 'satcoin' thread; possibly other variations on the theme also )
15:23 mircea_popescu sure
15:24 * asciilifeform recently on yet another kick of 'what do re hashing' , if nobody guessed
15:26 asciilifeform granted this is less of a headache in 'minerless' trbi variants.
~ 38 minutes ~
16:04 asciilifeform !!up NoSatoshisHear
16:04 deedbot NoSatoshisHear voiced for 30 minutes.
16:04 asciilifeform lol
16:04 NoSatoshisHear ya, i'm an idiot. thx for the !up
16:05 NoSatoshisHear ffa, some cool stuff, making a braindead c one just cause I can learn better. Sure wish I could pour some fast multiply hardware, but don't know enough prolly.
16:06 asciilifeform NoSatoshisHear: why dontcha introduce yerself ?
16:06 asciilifeform and, better even, reg with deedbot
16:06 asciilifeform !!help
16:06 deedbot http://deedbot.org/help.html
16:07 NoSatoshisHear ex game engineer, ex intel architect, now too old to get hired. life summary.
↖
16:07 ben_vulpes didja at least keep the options in the divorce?
16:08 asciilifeform NoSatoshisHear: reg with deedbot; i'll rate you
16:08 NoSatoshisHear intel got no options, you get a multiplier. best paid job ever.
16:08 NoSatoshisHear I have, came last summer, fugged around, left with a copy of trb to play with, will make a real name and gpg id in the near future....
16:09 ben_vulpes "dump trucks of money every two weeks" is how i heard it described one time.
16:09 NoSatoshisHear you get a percent of the profit every quarter, I started at 25% of salary, and got a 10% bump at 1 year, some 20 year+ doods have 2000% multipliers.
16:10 NoSatoshisHear hated the job, loved the money.
16:10 asciilifeform NoSatoshisHear: why didja leave?
↖
16:10 asciilifeform or sacked ?
16:11 NoSatoshisHear left, was not happy with the system, thought it was not conducive to making new wares, but great for maintaining older established platforms.
16:11 asciilifeform unsurprising, considering that intel lives ~100% on ye olde wintel monopoly
16:12 asciilifeform (which in turn inherited from ancient ibm monopoly, so altogether century+ old)
16:12 NoSatoshisHear was pretty cool getting to be in the architect meeting. They introduced the FU chip in 2004 as a seperate processor. I so voted it down. It sounded like a spy chip and it was.
16:13 asciilifeform FU?
16:13 NoSatoshisHear I'll be damned if they didn't put that bastard into my sacred north bridge! The intel management engine...
16:13 asciilifeform is this the turd that turned into ME ?
16:13 asciilifeform aa
16:13 NoSatoshisHear yup... that is it. Started in 2004, was designed to access memory, drive, and ethernet while main cpu was asleep...
16:14 asciilifeform this wasn't an engineer decision, but board 'decision' ( in the sense that if board tried to decide 'no', intel would have simply been given a new board )
16:14 NoSatoshisHear I worked on ICH7 and ICH8, fugging bugs out the ass in ICH7...
16:15 NoSatoshisHear yup, every engineer who heard of the system hated it, and the vp++ loved the idea, gave control to corporate overlords of your work machine.
16:15 asciilifeform !#s fritz
16:15 a111 61 results for "fritz", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=fritz
16:15 asciilifeform ^ see also
16:15 NoSatoshisHear then they put the bastard in everything, moved from NB to CPU, and you know the rest...
16:15 asciilifeform have you been reading the logs, NoSatoshisHear ?
16:16 NoSatoshisHear Read the all, love to read. Trilema leads out to all of you guys stuff, all 1% great stuff, and 99% personal wanglings.
↖
16:17 NoSatoshisHear what are my three premises? sounded like a binary joke extended. ETLA's
16:19 asciilifeform imho the interesting aspect of the intel fritzchip is not that it is there, but that an unknown and unknowable number of items with equivalent functionality also there.
16:19 NoSatoshisHear so, I may make a fun shitcoin for lulz. I like the hellcoin idea. The block gets awarded to the last 10 suckers^h^h^h^h^h miners that put a "realcoin" into the chain. We start at $100 and let people "mine" with coins, last 10 when the timer ticks down get the block.
↖
16:19 asciilifeform which is why i do not see the various diy attempts to disable the particular ME, as interesting in any way
16:20 asciilifeform what's it mean to 'put a realcoin into the chain'
16:20 NoSatoshisHear 30 minute timout shite, though I did see the key may have leaked and someone had an uploader.
16:20 asciilifeform or for that matter to 'start at $100'
16:21 asciilifeform NoSatoshisHear: keys leaking also not so exciting, they can simply swap out the key in next chip rev
16:21 asciilifeform like the hdmi people did
16:21 NoSatoshisHear You start with $100 in the pool, the "miners" contribute any amount of BC or other "valid" coin to bid. It goes in the pool, and the timer resets. If it times out, the last 10 get the block award.
16:22 asciilifeform sounds like a rather tedious fiatola casino
16:22 NoSatoshisHear try and even get the hdmi spec, I'm still looking for a "dumped" version. Love the ethernet spec they built in...
16:23 NoSatoshisHear yes, it's just like reddits "the button", only with money. Would be serious lulz, and only an idiot would play.
16:23 NoSatoshisHear the world has a lot of idiots, like me.
16:24 asciilifeform NoSatoshisHear: do consider to reg with deedbot.
16:24 NoSatoshisHear it would not be a coin, but a gambling experiment. Either no one would play, or lots would and the game could never end.
16:24 asciilifeform i'ma bbl.
16:24 NoSatoshisHear yes, will do a real ID, just flaming some crap right now. I have my main server back for repairs, so when it comes home I will do the do.
16:25 mod6 cool
16:26 NoSatoshisHear still wonder if I mean Satoshi at one of the parties with Tim May and James A Donald and some of the other early coiners. I was surprised to find peeps I hung with in SF...
16:26 NoSatoshisHear mean->met
16:28 NoSatoshisHear I worked on digital coin in 2001, but tried to find a non-net solution, and finally just gave up. When you head the wrong way, you don't get there. Still feel stupid for not buying in at $5, but I had no interest in Silk Road.
↖
16:31 NoSatoshisHear so, will be back later with a verifiable ID instead of this anon lunacy, thx for the lulz and info in the meantime.
16:31 mod6 aight, c-ya
16:33 NoSatoshisHear W00t! learned a lot from TRB, so thx to all of you maintainers! Will not make a V prolly though. Still learning lightning, now with "onion routing". HODL on, and buy my tethers plz.
16:34 trinque wtf?
16:35 trinque smell of https://oglaf.com/humans/
16:35 asciilifeform trinque: verily
16:38 trinque !!up caaddr
16:38 deedbot caaddr voiced for 30 minutes.
16:38 trinque caaddr: your connection through tor is going to end up irritating folks if the join/part gets too noisy.
↖
16:38 trinque !#s tor
16:38 a111 1126 results for "tor", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=tor
16:39 trinque isn't doing a thing for you other than whatever virtue signaling with the hackerkids
~ 21 minutes ~
17:00 lobbes In other heathendom lulz, local conservative radio stations in my area have begun airing ads: "Bobface from Alabama made $7 million cashing out on 'crypto stocks'. You can too! Buy this b00k to learn what you need to know to get in on it"
~ 40 minutes ~
17:41 mircea_popescu lobbes sadly thaty book is not availablew in my country ;/ i wonder if you could buy it for me and ship it!!1
17:43 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1776346 << i suspect his idea is "ideally, nothing". in any case foundation has not managed to keep up with the rest of the pie despite periodic prodding.
↖
17:43 a111 Logged on 2018-01-25 19:15 trinque: what is the foundation's role then?
17:43 mircea_popescu then again growth is hard.
17:44 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1776348 << this is a much deeper problem anyway. emmylark chick is like "do you have a preference" re windows irc clients. i don't, i don't run windows. "what should i run ?" "err... we'll talk of this later, slut". which is fine, she's used to "you're too dumb to be told this story yet", EXCEPT in this case it's not her that's too dumb.
17:44 a111 Logged on 2018-01-25 19:15 asciilifeform: n00b wants to run trb. which trb will he run ?
17:45 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1776472 << and as to this, as you might've noticed, moving to mirc from freenode webirc hasn't helped all that much.
17:45 a111 Logged on 2018-01-25 21:38 trinque: caaddr: your connection through tor is going to end up irritating folks if the join/part gets too noisy.
17:45 mircea_popescu what can you do ? she's not setting up any bouncers as a three day old.
17:53 mircea_popescu meanwhile in functional cultures, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVTaMktCIEk
17:56 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1776414 << not bad ; you're probably not too old to be useful for minigame, you know.
17:56 a111 Logged on 2018-01-25 21:07 NoSatoshisHear: ex game engineer, ex intel architect, now too old to get hired. life summary.
17:58 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1776422 << for the obvious reason, became obvious ship is slowly sinking and rudderless in any case, time to move on. eh!
17:58 a111 Logged on 2018-01-25 21:10 asciilifeform: NoSatoshisHear: why didja leave?
18:08 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1776441 << i'm unsure what this means. what does this mean ?
18:08 a111 Logged on 2018-01-25 21:16 NoSatoshisHear: Read the all, love to read. Trilema leads out to all of you guys stuff, all 1% great stuff, and 99% personal wanglings.
18:10 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1776444 <<->> http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=dollar+auction
18:10 a111 Logged on 2018-01-25 21:19 NoSatoshisHear: so, I may make a fun shitcoin for lulz. I like the hellcoin idea. The block gets awarded to the last 10 suckers^h^h^h^h^h miners that put a "realcoin" into the chain. We start at $100 and let people "mine" with coins, last 10 when the timer ticks down get the block.
~ 16 minutes ~
18:26 mircea_popescu !!up NoSatoshisHear
18:26 deedbot NoSatoshisHear voiced for 30 minutes.
18:27 NoSatoshisHear so sorry, came back for 'splaining... since I usually make no sense without lots of context.
18:28 NoSatoshisHear for MP, all 1% great stuff, and 99% personal wanglings. means 1% tech talk, love it, and 99% porn posts, personal shite, etc. Love it all.
18:30 NoSatoshisHear and almost a dollar auction, auctioneer gets nothing, puts up the initial $100, gets lot of lulz if the crowd ever starts trying to win on the money rake game. Demos of economics are just plain w00ty tooty fun times.
18:33 mircea_popescu hanbot hey, make a mp-wp install for the young'un ? i've a mind to publicly expose her.
18:33 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1776478 << in the "journal of negative results", china thing went ~nowhere, i had some 6-7 notional meatsacks try to use irc, one managed to reg a key and then fell off the map; now waiting for bisp to come online to host on republican terms
18:33 a111 Logged on 2018-01-25 22:43 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1776346 << i suspect his idea is "ideally, nothing". in any case foundation has not managed to keep up with the rest of the pie despite periodic prodding.
18:33 mircea_popescu NoSatoshisHear oh i see. verbs help you know!
18:35 NoSatoshisHear sorry, text talk, plus not editing my own shite leads to unclear communications. I know better, english professor grandma taught me proper diction, though I am lazy.
18:35 mircea_popescu honestly your coin idea isn't even bad, in theory. in practice it has a fundamental flaw. you see, bitcoin acts AS A CLOCK. this is its principal function. your thing has no clock.
18:35 mircea_popescu there's no intrinsic reason to close the auction ; if you solve this you may have something.
18:37 NoSatoshisHear centralized system, so one server counts the ticks, it would simply be a demo of reddit "the button" style idiocy combined with gambling. Sounds viral, like the 1918 flu.
↖
18:37 mircea_popescu dumb solution.
18:37 mircea_popescu make a good solution.
18:38 NoSatoshisHear you got it, dumb. a working solution would be even dumber.
18:38 mircea_popescu yes, but a perfectly dumb item is as respectable as the perfect woman.
18:38 mircea_popescu the problems arise from imperfection.
18:38 NoSatoshisHear shitcoin nonsense combined with the current addicted gamblers might be a fun public spectacle.
18:39 NoSatoshisHear Would be even better if "hacked" in the end?
18:39 NoSatoshisHear Damn, I so want to tether, but I have morals unfortunately.
18:39 mircea_popescu lol
18:40 NoSatoshisHear So, come on, how many BC do you really have? Not like you could ever answer, but you are really not Satoshi, and really are the Romanian guy I looked up under IEEE?
18:40 mircea_popescu the who ?
18:41 mircea_popescu oh lol. they summoned up an imperial-flavoured alt-mp. has ~nothing to do with anything, and no other claim to fame besides "hey, we can pretend THIS is relevant".
18:42 NoSatoshisHear There is a Romanian named Mircea Popescu that is registered with the IEEE... You are not him, correct? https://ias.ieee.org/images/files/CMD/2014/mircea%20popescu.pdf
18:44 mircea_popescu correct.
18:44 mircea_popescu guy exists so google can pretend to misunderstand which mircea popescu people are looking for.
18:45 mircea_popescu not because it does anything, but because...well... it burns, what.
18:46 NoSatoshisHear John Does down the stack... Pseudonymity is the way to go, don't hide, drown in excess data... Lol, go for it Palantir
18:47 mircea_popescu eh, they've no fucking idea. but anyway.
18:48 trinque NoSatoshisHear: plenty of folks here with their actual names.
18:48 NoSatoshisHear exactly. I don't have any idea. Yup, looked up lots of folx with real names. Not like I hide much either.
18:50 NoSatoshisHear Just find the pseudo named people to be fun, and I am looking for fun. That and code fun. You have provided both.
18:51 trinque oh, do we get an upvote then?
18:51 * trinque will show his mother
18:51 NoSatoshisHear damn, where is my reddit upgoat, since you have earned many.
18:51 asciilifeform oh hey more 'humans' :
18:51 asciilifeform !!up lurkymclurkerson
18:51 deedbot lurkymclurkerson voiced for 30 minutes.
18:53 asciilifeform hey NoSatoshisHear -- you say you read the ffa series ? in what order of complexity does modular exponentiation run ?
18:55 asciilifeform or , how about , NoSatoshisHear , you worked at intel yes ? in what chemistry was the i386 fabbed ? and roughly how many transistors on the die , to the nearest hundred thousand ?
18:56 mircea_popescu lol
18:56 NoSatoshisHear well per loper, I may have missed it, but I don't think that was covered in 1-8.
18:56 asciilifeform trinque start the clock whydontcha
18:56 asciilifeform ahahahahahahaha
19:00 asciilifeform that didn't take long.
19:01 mircea_popescu i don't think the fellow took your meaning.
19:01 asciilifeform let's see,
19:01 asciilifeform !!up NoSatoshisHear
19:01 deedbot NoSatoshisHear voiced for 30 minutes.
19:01 NoSatoshisHear no, I got it.
19:01 ben_vulpes it was right on time if you look at when he got voice
19:01 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: not that
19:01 NoSatoshisHear dudes, doesn't matter, was fun.
19:03 NoSatoshisHear Also, 2004 was 64 bit 586 days, so before my time.
19:03 NoSatoshisHear thx!
19:03 asciilifeform aaaaha.
19:03 mircea_popescu you are too harsh, alfie.
19:03 asciilifeform am not.
19:03 asciilifeform this was basic.
19:03 mircea_popescu how would we settle this dispute ?
19:03 asciilifeform and i fucking hate cheap ninjashoguns.
19:04 mircea_popescu there's no argument as to that.
19:04 asciilifeform dunno that there is any straight way to settle 'what is basic' . but rough measures of most-famous-products at company one supposedly worked at, is not imho 'cruel & unusual' puzzle
19:04 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1776346 << i suspect his idea is "ideally, nothing". in any case foundation has not managed to keep up with the rest of the pie despite periodic prodding. << hmm. well whatever it is we do, I spend a lot of time doing it. happy to shut it down if it's not needed any more.
19:04 a111 Logged on 2018-01-25 19:15 trinque: what is the foundation's role then?
19:05 mircea_popescu the issue is not "what is basic", but "you are too harsh" / "am not"
19:05 asciilifeform aa sure.
19:05 mircea_popescu mod6 dun take it personal ; for one thing i'm hussling him not you.
19:05 mod6 nothing personal. i feel like the foundation is a good thing ; maintaining all of the things re: trb.
19:05 asciilifeform '64bit 586' soo preshus
19:05 mircea_popescu so do i.
19:06 mod6 but if there is the sentiment that it's not needed, then we should have that talk.
19:06 mircea_popescu jesus what a juggernaut this guy is. YO! that's not the sentiment.
19:07 mod6 hehe, ok :]
19:08 mircea_popescu throw darts at ben_vulpes end up tackled by mod6 ; what is this, like teamwork ?
19:08 asciilifeform lol
19:09 mod6 I think it's good that we're able to adjust to anything if need be. Tis' all.
19:09 mod6 It's only as useful, as long as it's useful kinda thing.
19:09 mircea_popescu word.
19:10 asciilifeform mod6: it is useful now. and will be evenmoar useful when bisp and rack for nodes etc
19:11 mod6 ^ indeed.
19:12 mircea_popescu i'm needling him about systems design matters because he's interested, and intelligent enough, and occasionally sparks from it.
19:13 mod6 <+asciilifeform> n00b wants to run trb. which trb will he run ? << n00b runs what is available at thebitcoin.foundation -- there are some recent vpatches that will become mainline once I can get all of the things vetted more closely.
19:13 asciilifeform mod6: this was in response to a hypothetical 'but why do we even need releases' , not re current trb www
19:14 asciilifeform mod6: currently, and quite fortunately, there ~is~ a foundation, with releases .
19:14 mod6 Some of this is my fault, I've been trying to keep up here. Getting kinda swampped with a bunch of things at once. But! These are all good things. FFA, eucrypt, ada, vtron stuff, et. al.
19:15 mircea_popescu it's expanding quite rapidly.
19:15 mod6 Yeah, i agree, that 'releases' is kinda anti-V.
19:15 asciilifeform i dun see how 'anti' . a release is simply a type of vpress.
19:15 asciilifeform by particular people.
19:15 mod6 However, until n00bs get into the fold with what 'V' is, they kinda need just 1 stable thing to build with a 1-button-push. Which means folding things in slowly.
19:16 mod6 asciilifeform: by that i mean, 'you should choose your own adventure' -- each man pulls in the vpatches he desires.
19:16 mod6 you read the code.
19:16 mod6 you pull in the things you want, from the people you trust.
19:16 mircea_popescu aha.
19:16 mod6 we'll get there.
19:18 mod6 I'm so excited right now tbh.
19:18 mircea_popescu yeah me too!
19:20 mod6 I'd like to see the Republic continue to expand the number of trb nodes we have available this year. There are activities currently afoot that immensly support that. Getting FFA vetted and used as a base lib really will help get the ball rolling for any proposed trbi.
19:21 mod6 This year. Very excited & positive about that.
19:23 asciilifeform mod6: i dun particularly disagree with any of this, but the pov that 'vetting ffa' is a 1time thing, that can be done and then 'is done', imho is mistake : each user must read it ~himself~.
19:23 asciilifeform forever.
19:23 asciilifeform ( forever, that is, not for individual user, but for the sequence of n00bz )
19:23 mircea_popescu asciilifeform sorta like "Each user must read darwin theory for himself"
19:23 asciilifeform aaha.
19:23 asciilifeform and euclid, etc
19:23 mircea_popescu yes, they must, but not with a view to validate theory of evolution ; with a view to expunge head cockroaches
19:24 mod6 <+asciilifeform> mod6: i dun particularly disagree with any of this, but the pov that 'vetting ffa' is a 1time thing, that can be done and then 'is done', imho is mistake : each user must read it ~himself~. << I basically just mean for me & ben.
19:24 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: right
19:24 mod6 We have to understand every line.
19:24 asciilifeform just as we dun read euclid 'to validate euclid'
19:24 mod6 The good news is, I started really digging into ada and your sneak-previews early last year.
19:25 mod6 Thankfully I put the time in.
19:25 asciilifeform mod6: aha, you were among the earliest iirc to get on that ship
19:25 mod6 I'm gonna get this vtron stuff out of the way, then dive in. I should be able to make it through the first 3 chapters pretty easily. I even wrote my own unit tests for those parts.
19:25 asciilifeform the other fortunate bit, at least re ffa, is that it is not complicated from the ada pov
19:25 asciilifeform ( this is deliberate )
19:26 mod6 yes. I'm starting to love ada, at least, syntactically. The way you've used it, is very straight forward -- at least once one understands how array access / slices work.
19:26 asciilifeform mod6: i have a feeling you'll love the ch8 homework.
19:27 mod6 I think so too, I took a peek at it. I'm actually excited that you put homework problems in there. And I'll do 'em for sure.
19:27 mod6 Honestly, I loved the homework for ffa_calc. That was awesome.
19:27 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1776463 << hey, i knew a guy who didn't finance (1980s!) porn ventures because "not interested in the loose women". bought "blue chip" fucking revlon and bs instead. i'm sure there's even today ossified mind going "i'm not into tmsr because i'm not interested in terrorism". hurr durr, you never know what things are really about.
19:27 a111 Logged on 2018-01-25 21:28 NoSatoshisHear: I worked on digital coin in 2001, but tried to find a non-net solution, and finally just gave up. When you head the wrong way, you don't get there. Still feel stupid for not buying in at $5, but I had no interest in Silk Road.
19:29 asciilifeform dafuq even is -- even in principle -- 'non-net solution' to 'digital coin'
19:30 asciilifeform presumably meant the magical 'untamperable clipper chips' of the 1990s 'digital currency' derps
19:30 asciilifeform ( i dun know of anything else that could have fit this description )
19:30 mircea_popescu asciilifeform it's not a novel concept to me -- coins that are only verified on exchange.
19:31 asciilifeform well yes. but 'verified' how
19:31 mircea_popescu well yes.
19:31 mircea_popescu but you can see the appeal.
↖
19:31 asciilifeform i can also see the appeal of fart-powered flight
19:31 mircea_popescu hey, swear to me you never EVER consider it.
19:31 asciilifeform i considered errything, from perpetuum mobile up
19:31 mircea_popescu so there we go.
19:31 asciilifeform dun mean that it makes any sense.
19:31 asciilifeform !#s martian bank
19:31 a111 17 results for "martian bank", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=martian%20bank
19:32 asciilifeform ^ see also.
19:32 mircea_popescu this'd be his take on that.
19:32 mircea_popescu see, you can tell the guy is genuinely 60ish not just because of his specific pre-internet use of language ; but also because of his default mental models.
19:32 mircea_popescu martian bank, if you're born in say 1960s, is exactly "secret magical pocket knife"
19:33 mod6 I'd like to make another positive mention here about TMSR~, if I may : one thing that really makes me smile is that all of us, no matter how busy, or whatever, are always willing to drop whatever it is to pitch in when the ship needs trimming.
↖
19:33 mircea_popescu i think i pointed out somewhere how boys that've never seen a cunt still get wet dreams, but with boobs instead. same thing here -- before networks were well understood people still thought about network-like problems. just... in roman numerals.
19:34 mod6 It's pretty fantastic all around. Very good things.
19:36 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: closest thing i ever came up with to 'analogue bitcoin' was a variant of http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-02#1222527 , where you have a sheet of $glasslike and a thermal stressor gadget is used to crack it into N 'jigsaw' pieces; idea being that adjacent pieces 'plug into' yours and can 'verify' it , and so on recursively
19:36 a111 Logged on 2015-08-02 21:00 mircea_popescu: you buy 6x6 inch panbes of glass and crash them
19:36 mircea_popescu to put it tersely, i'm unsatisfied it doesn't work.
19:37 mircea_popescu which is like "i'm satisfied X", together with "hey, wait a minute, what if..."
19:37 asciilifeform it works, wat
19:37 asciilifeform glasscoin...
19:37 mircea_popescu i meant the supernode, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-26#1776626
19:37 a111 Logged on 2018-01-26 00:31 mircea_popescu: but you can see the appeal.
19:37 asciilifeform aa
19:38 asciilifeform even that 'works' for the usd value of 'works'..
19:38 mircea_popescu that's not a value.
19:41 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1776346 << this ftr was said thinking that it *is* useful, wanted, etc.
19:41 a111 Logged on 2018-01-25 19:15 trinque: what is the foundation's role then?
19:42 mod6 never hurts to ask a tough question.
19:43 * trinque often does this to a person he thinks is qualified to give the argument
19:44 mod6 I appreciate all your hard work / blood / sweat / tears on your trb adventure with deedbot. Your contributions are and will make a difference. This is why the republic is on top. We don't imagine the change we want to see in the world, WE MAKE THE CHANGE WE WANT TO SEE IN THE WORLD.
19:44 shinohai ^
19:45 trinque fuck yeah buddy.
19:45 mod6 This goes for all Lords and Ladies too. If that wasn't obv.
19:47 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i'll admit to a curiosity to hear moar re 'unsatisfied that it doesn't work'
19:50 mircea_popescu i'm satisfied it doesn't work and not happy with this.
19:50 asciilifeform aaa.
19:50 mircea_popescu so therefore... unsatisfied it doesn't work.
19:51 asciilifeform fwiw a literal martian bank would probably work quite well. ( you might have to put it farther than mars, or even on a continually-moving craft , so as it could not be templar-molested by 'french king' )
19:51 asciilifeform with the obvious physical gotchas.
19:53 asciilifeform and more generally, if one could park an rsa-speaking machine , of extraordinary physical resilience, somewhere nobody could reasonably get to, but can still maintain radio contact
19:54 asciilifeform ( 'machine' in the very general sense, you'd want >1 , which understand one another's keys and sync )
19:54 mircea_popescu and who runs the craft, http://trilema.com/the-hour-of-reckoning ?
19:54 asciilifeform program.
19:55 mircea_popescu oh oh oh i seee!
19:55 mircea_popescu a PROGRAM!
19:55 asciilifeform the orig scenario of course requires benevolent martian , who would gently pick up idjit humans who try to approach the box, like child picks up beetles, and puts'em elsewhere
19:55 mircea_popescu as the man said, "motherfucker, why didn't i think of that!"
19:55 asciilifeform lolyes
19:55 asciilifeform it's a gypsy chicken recipe
19:56 asciilifeform ( unsurprisingly, i'd hope, to errybody reading )
19:56 mircea_popescu if you had that alien it'd be perhaps wiser to just let him figure out what to do himself ?
19:56 asciilifeform next thing , maxwell's daemon will also 'figure out what to do himself!11' lol
19:56 mircea_popescu doesn't it ?
19:57 asciilifeform i suppose.
19:58 mircea_popescu are you... unsatisfied that it does ? :D
19:58 asciilifeform for thread-completeness i will point out that 'who runs the craft' is a problem that exists just the same in current-day bitcoinism.
19:58 asciilifeform rather.
19:58 mircea_popescu oya
~ 23 minutes ~
20:21 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-26#1776638 << for some reason my automatic default mental picture was the scene from film 'das boot'
20:21 a111 Logged on 2018-01-26 00:33 mod6: I'd like to make another positive mention here about TMSR~, if I may : one thing that really makes me smile is that all of us, no matter how busy, or whatever, are always willing to drop whatever it is to pitch in when the ship needs trimming.
~ 1 hours 47 minutes ~
22:08 mod6 i gotta see this movie now
~ 40 minutes ~
22:49 mod6 ok lemme see if i can do a bit of debugging on this mpwp and see if that really was the issue there.
~ 16 minutes ~
23:05 mod6 ok here's what I've learned.
23:06 mod6 So if you manually extract the 'mpwp/blog/wp-includes/js/tinymce/plugins/wpgallery/img/gallery.png.svg' from the mp-wp_genesis.vpatch, and place it in a file, and attempt to base64 decode it, it fails to decode.
23:07 mod6 Why? Because of the 'false' at the end of this line: ++6/l4BiDfMrebzvzrfh2UMH8cTMAsbHbPRFuih0reDbX30AD+17CB1JhgefoRhOIbIr3k3CDKGT false
23:08 mod6 (note that in the genesis, there is an additional '+' at the front of the line)
23:08 mod6 anyway, removing: ' false' from that line will indeed, yield the correct hash, and allow for a proper base64 decoding.
23:09 mod6 9e46f66499629dc2127e8ed8f0aebef467af1d18ceeb36326791ab201cd0bc0905236b3450c6c3944f6abea9c987fb0e28cc4cdadcec5c1834546173d816a893 gallery.png.svg.mod6_edit
23:10 mod6 Perhaps something with the vdiff is doing this? Or maybe there was something weird in the original encoding of this image? But that seems to be the solution, remove that ' false' and that should work.
23:13 mod6 <3
~ 17 minutes ~
23:30 mircea_popescu basically her svging of binaries did some inadvertent fuzzing of the whole vdiff process
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