Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-01-30 | 2017-02-01 → ↓
00:35 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-30#1609850 << i am, but it's in the list of things i need to accomplish. i want to wrap up "blame" next, and i can work no graphs after
00:35 a111 Logged on 2017-01-30 16:55 mircea_popescu: speaking of which phf you still working on that ?
00:35 mircea_popescu worx
~ 7 hours 22 minutes ~
07:57 shinohai !~later tell BingoBoingo http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/agePU/?raw=true
07:57 jhvh1 shinohai: The operation succeeded.
~ 1 hours 29 minutes ~
09:26 BingoBoingo shinohai: ty fxd
09:27 shinohai o/ cheers and gm!
09:29 deedbot http://qntra.net/2017/01/roger-ver-presents-bitcoin-com-presents-bitcoin-unlimited-mining-pool-goes-over-on-blocksize-gets-orpaned/ << Qntra - Roger Ver Presents Bitcoin.com Presents "Bitcoin" Unlimited Mining Pool Goes Over On Blocksize, Gets Orphaned
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09:44 asciilifeform in other lulz, https://www.debian.org/security/2017/dsa-3775
09:44 asciilifeform 'Multiple vulnerabilities have been discovered in tcpdump, a command-line network traffic analyzer. These vulnerabilities might result in denial of service or the execution of arbitrary code.'
09:44 asciilifeform Run Moar Debian.
~ 22 minutes ~
10:07 asciilifeform in other monkeystan chatter, 'Pence is sane enough to oppose rash acts involving, say, the evisceration of all U.S. military alliances, or America's first use of nuclear weapons - and presumably, if things got bad enough, other Trump cabinet members might also be inclined to oust their boss and replace him with his vice president. Congress would have to acquiesce in a permanent 25th Amendment
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10:07 asciilifeform removal, but if Pence and half the cabinet declared Trump unfit, even a Republican-controlled Congress would likely fall in line.'
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10:09 asciilifeform (source -- http://archive.is/3mkfG )
10:10 asciilifeform and to top off the lulzfest, http://archive.is/jMArA : 'Microsoft Corp said it has been cooperating with the Washington State Attorney General's Office, which is suing in federal court to stop President Donald Trump's order restricting immigration from several Muslim countries.'
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~ 43 minutes ~
10:53 thestringpuller BingoBoingo: funfact kindergarten cop is a textbook "comedic thriller"
10:57 thestringpuller In other "news" >> https://it.slashdot.org/story/17/01/31/1425259/netgear-exploit-found-in-31-models-lets-hackers-turn-your-router-into-a-botnet
~ 27 minutes ~
11:24 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/DDE2BA903B5B33E79BA63AD7CD4401DB427E8E77C8E4A31789667B9AC97619BA << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1373...5033 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '85.125.140.228 (ssh-rsa key from 85.125.140.228 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (85-125-140-228.static.upcbusiness.at. AT)
11:24 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/DDE2BA903B5B33E79BA63AD7CD4401DB427E8E77C8E4A31789667B9AC97619BA << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1377...9033 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '85.125.140.228 (ssh-rsa key from 85.125.140.228 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (85-125-140-228.static.upcbusiness.at. AT)
11:27 Framedragger !$ssh 85.125.140.228
11:27 scriba ssh banner of 85.125.140.228 as seen on 2016-06-13: SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_4.3p2 Debian-9
11:30 asciilifeform Framedragger: neato
11:31 Framedragger (i'm afraid i won't have much time to work on bot or anything for the next ~two months, though. will maintain things and slowly move ahead, tho.)
~ 1 hours 3 minutes ~
12:34 ben_vulpes shinohai: that is a funny tweet from gavin
12:35 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: h1b pipeline jeopardized?
12:35 shinohai haha ben_vulpes .... his tweets are just more of same butthurt and wtf since the "But he *is* satoshi* thing.
12:35 shinohai All Unlimited is now superior to core things.
12:36 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: h1b from obummer's Badness Enumeration List ~= 0
12:38 shinohai "I'm half-Latina, my mother full-blooded. My father is white. At Thanksgiving, I was having a discussion with another relative when my dad's aunt called me a Communist and started chanting 'Build that wall.' Should I write her off?"
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12:38 shinohai hmmmm
12:41 thestringpuller i've never seen h1b1 used for its "intended purpose". at first coal mine, director would hire h1b applicants over the norm due to cost.
12:42 thestringpuller ended up turning the place into almagamation of sweatshop and click farm...
~ 18 minutes ~
13:00 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/B222AE99114C968292A3E25BF957904F867CAC0764829606CE8713E800CC79E7 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1711...1857 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '201.248.243.31 (ssh-rsa key from 201.248.243.31 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (201-248-243-31.dyn.dsl.cantv.net. VE)
13:00 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/B222AE99114C968292A3E25BF957904F867CAC0764829606CE8713E800CC79E7 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1770...5107 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '201.248.243.31 (ssh-rsa key from 201.248.243.31 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (201-248-243-31.dyn.dsl.cantv.net. VE)
13:10 asciilifeform in other adanoose, appartently
13:10 asciilifeform type Foo is range 0 .. (2**64)-1;
13:10 asciilifeform barfs gcc:
13:10 asciilifeform 'integer type definition bounds out of range'
13:11 asciilifeform because -- marvel of marvels, gcc has nfi how to generate bounded unsigned 64bit types in ada on x86-64.
13:12 asciilifeform now, type U64 is mod 2**64; works
13:12 asciilifeform but this gives you a C-style 'modular type' -- e.g., it can overflow and underflow.
13:12 asciilifeform motherfucking tards.
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13:22 deedbot http://trilema.com/2017/lethargy-part-6/ << Trilema - Lethargy, part 6
13:30 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-31#1610170 << ok i lolled.
13:30 a111 Logged on 2017-01-31 14:29 deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/01/roger-ver-presents-bitcoin-com-presents-bitcoin-unlimited-mining-pool-goes-over-on-blocksize-gets-orpaned/ << Qntra - Roger Ver Presents Bitcoin.com Presents "Bitcoin" Unlimited Mining Pool Goes Over On Blocksize, Gets Orphaned
13:32 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-31#1610174 << wtf are they smoking over at nytimes retreat ? vp is not involved in nucular deployments.
13:32 a111 Logged on 2017-01-31 15:07 asciilifeform: in other monkeystan chatter, 'Pence is sane enough to oppose rash acts involving, say, the evisceration of all U.S. military alliances, or America's first use of nuclear weapons - and presumably, if things got bad enough, other Trump cabinet members might also be inclined to oust their boss and replace him with his vice president. Congress would have to acquiesce in a permanent 25th Amendment
13:32 mircea_popescu also, amendments to the constitution aren't made by congress.
13:32 shinohai I like the "America's first use of nuclear weapons" part.
13:32 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: they dun need an amendment to dethrone president
13:32 shinohai "We all slept in history class"
13:33 mircea_popescu jesus turns out the "our democracy" folk had been living in a full on play-by-the-ear dictatorship since the 70s ? they have nfi how anything works do they ?
13:33 asciilifeform 30s
13:33 mircea_popescu asciilifeform iirc yeltsin won this dispute in practice.
13:33 mircea_popescu they could use some howitzers ; they ain't got 'em.
13:34 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-31#1610175 << pence and half the cabinet ?! what is this, our democracy ?
13:34 a111 Logged on 2017-01-31 15:07 asciilifeform: removal, but if Pence and half the cabinet declared Trump unfit, even a Republican-controlled Congress would likely fall in line.'
13:35 mircea_popescu !$ssh 68.65.169.6
13:35 mircea_popescu !$ssh 62.102.148.183
13:35 mircea_popescu !$ssh 213.127.32.7
13:36 mircea_popescu !$ssh 71.232.150.212
13:36 scriba ssh banner of 71.232.150.212 as seen on 2016-06-13: SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_6.0p1 Debian-4+deb7u2
13:37 mircea_popescu this has been a random sampling of the ips leaked by people connecting today. Framedragger, any idea why only 1 in 4 is in your list ? evidently the ips are routable ; can you check if you talked to them and htey didn't respond, or just didn't talk to them ?
13:37 mircea_popescu also this is very nice item.
13:38 * asciilifeform guesses that they belong to luser boxes, i.e. konsoomer routers, no ssh
13:38 Framedragger will check later! main guess is that there's no actuall ssh server running on port 22 (or rather, there was none at time of scan.) would be great to know the overall statistics, yes.
13:38 Framedragger the `ssh` command should take multiple IPs per msg, btw
13:39 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-31#1610191 << the aunt is right ; "latinos" don't belong in civilised society. see also http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-30#1610004
13:39 a111 Logged on 2017-01-31 17:38 shinohai: "I'm half-Latina, my mother full-blooded. My father is white. At Thanksgiving, I was having a discussion with another relative when my dad's aunt called me a Communist and started chanting 'Build that wall.' Should I write her off?"
13:39 a111 Logged on 2017-01-30 21:18 mircea_popescu: because, of course, "Sepan los nacidos y los que van nacer que nacimos para vencer y no para ser vencidos."
13:39 Framedragger (is this to be expected, statistically speaking, and so on. but yes have logs, will check ~tomorrow or today)
13:39 mircea_popescu Framedragger was planning to use it as a snide "you're leaking ip" for noobs' benefit
13:39 mircea_popescu no rush whatever.
13:39 Framedragger :)
13:40 shinohai Stupid hotel I'm in has only ipv6 addys
13:41 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-31#1610204 << wait so ada is brokened ?
13:41 a111 Logged on 2017-01-31 18:12 asciilifeform: motherfucking tards.
13:41 thestringpuller segwit addys
13:41 mircea_popescu i'm sorry, "the gcc ada implementation"
13:41 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: even this, is debatable
13:42 asciilifeform i've been pondering subj for ~hour nao; it is not entirely clear that '100% machinewordsize-independent arithmetic' is compatible with 'zero-surprise compilation on all machines'
13:42 asciilifeform it's an abstraction leak that is not trivially pluggable.
13:44 asciilifeform as per ada standard, in order to have a constrained type (e.g., type foo is range 0 .. 10; ) the compiler must find a X such that X is representable on the machine as a fixint, and range of X is larger than asked-for range
13:45 asciilifeform so it'll turn type Foo is range 0 .. 10; into type Foo is Integer range 0 .. 10 ;
13:45 asciilifeform even type Foo is range 0 .. (2**63)-1; worx on x64, because there is a superset, i.e. range 0 .. 2**64 .
13:46 asciilifeform but if there is no fixint superset, there cannot, apparently, exist the constrained type.
13:47 asciilifeform seeeee this is what i mean when i say 'hardware is catastrophically retarded'
13:47 shinohai ^ ah ha!
13:48 asciilifeform and no, you can't gabriel_laddel over this boojum, and 'work around in software automagically', result will be a massive time AND space penalty at a seemingly arbitrary boundary (i.e. if you had bignumatron kick in above the can't-fixnum-no-moar threshhold)
13:49 asciilifeform likewise default assumption in ada world is that there is not necessarily a heap. (safety-critical proggies typically use NO HEAP EVER)
13:49 asciilifeform so you ~must~ have fixnum arithmetic.
13:49 asciilifeform this is, as i see it, a philosophical problem, and i post it here for that reason.
13:51 asciilifeform this is not as simple as 'gcc suxxxxx, let's fix gcc'. because i have nfi what The Right Thing looks like here.
13:52 asciilifeform and the 'doctor, it hurts when i do that! --- so stop doing that!' option is NOT available, as bitcoin's protocol mandates a 'compactsize' variable-bitness integer idiocy that maxes out at unsigned 64bit. ( see http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/serialize.h?v=asciilifeform_add_verifyall_option#0192 ) .
13:55 asciilifeform now! IN PRACTICE! any bitcoin message with a 0xFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF varint in it, is an eggog, because max message length is smaller than this.
13:55 ben_vulpes compact size is an excellent example of a throwaway "engineering" decision that imposes rather a lot of costs on the future
13:55 asciilifeform but this is small comfort
13:57 asciilifeform i will explain why:
13:57 asciilifeform let's say we go type Btc_Varint is range 0 .. (2**63)-1;
13:57 asciilifeform (and then define the correct reader, writer, for streams, i am omitting these here for clarity)
13:58 asciilifeform this will never result in a block verification eggog (varints are used ONLY for counts of entitites, and no bitcointronic subentity contains 2**64 of anything, or could, by the classical rules)
13:58 asciilifeform BUT! now an enemy can distinguish your node from satoshi node, by when the connection barfs. potentially.
13:58 asciilifeform (by injecting a 2**64 varint in some message.)
14:03 asciilifeform this, i suppose, is not a mega-discovery, it is just trivial fact that you cannot 100% match the semantics of a broken system without being broken in all of the exactly same ways (in this case, over/under-flowable arithmetic)
14:04 asciilifeform that being said, my current understanding is that no bitcoin message containing a varint equalling 2**64 is ever possibly valid.
14:04 asciilifeform mircea_popescu ^ does this match your calculation ?
14:04 asciilifeform ben_vulpes ? et al
14:05 asciilifeform (2**64 -1 rather !!!!)
14:05 asciilifeform 2**64 is a 65-bit number.
14:06 asciilifeform proposition: 'no valid bitcoingram contains a varint greater than 2**63 -1 ', let's say. tru?
14:06 asciilifeform or not.
14:07 asciilifeform pretty sure that nothing ever hits even 2**32-1.
14:08 asciilifeform varint-wise.
14:08 asciilifeform (a 1MB block cannot, no matter how much you might want, ever hold > 1048576 of ANYTHING!)
14:10 asciilifeform as for mempool messages, we have , in current trb :
14:10 asciilifeform inline unsigned int ReceiveBufferSize() { return 1000*GetArg("-maxreceivebuffer", 10*1000); }
14:10 asciilifeform inline unsigned int SendBufferSize() { return 1000*GetArg("-maxsendbuffer", 10*1000); }
14:11 asciilifeform some idiot ~could~ enable receipt of 4GB messages. but exabyte ??
14:20 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-03#1551706 <<< directly related old thread.
14:20 a111 Logged on 2016-10-03 16:20 asciilifeform: i will give example here, to nail in the point:
14:28 asciilifeform we are looking at a real engineering constraint, flowing from the broken way in which c-machine implements the ring of integers.
~ 20 minutes ~
14:48 * asciilifeform idly wonders if ye olde https://www.engadget.com/2015/05/01/boeing-787-dreamliner-software-bug/ was an instance of 'can't do 64bit unsigned int as constrained range type on any extant iron'
~ 29 minutes ~
15:18 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i don't think "zero surprise compilation on all machines" is a notable or even desirable concern.
15:18 mircea_popescu go, make "zero surprises compilation" on intel pentiums.
15:19 mircea_popescu machine's problems must be solved by machines ; software is the standard they are led to much like the erect cock is the standard women are held to.
15:19 mircea_popescu !$ssh 108.82.224.168
15:21 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: on no extant cpu can you apply range constraint predicate to a bus-wide fixnum. think about it.
15:21 mircea_popescu seems like a strange sort of fencing error. vaguely reminiscent of the whole "is 1 inch pipe 1 inch outside or inside ?" debacle for apprentice plumbers
15:22 mircea_popescu it bloody well can't be 1 inch in all the ways
15:23 asciilifeform think: you can cmp rax, 0xffffffffffffffff . but you cannot cmp rax, 0x10000000000000000 , it dun matter how much you want to.
15:24 mircea_popescu yea.
15:24 asciilifeform whole notion of a fixnum, is this.
15:24 mircea_popescu why ?
15:25 asciilifeform it has finite bitness.
15:25 mircea_popescu why is this the whole notion of a fixnum ?
15:26 asciilifeform fixnum is the term of art for the mathematical object that you end up with when you arithmetize on registers of particular physical size.
15:27 mircea_popescu that's a part of the thing. consider, why isn't "the whole notion of fixnum" that if you b = size+1 then b = 0 ?
15:28 asciilifeform this comes with the territory of 'naked' register. in ada you have to explicitly ask for this horror, it is called 'modular type'. all c types are it.
15:29 mircea_popescu so there's at least two "whole notion of fixnum is this"
15:29 asciilifeform but ada also introduces notion of sane (non-underflowing and non-overflowing, and in fact arbitrarily constrained) types.
15:29 asciilifeform they are necessarily implemented on top of machine fixints.
15:29 mircea_popescu well good for it, but if it introduces it without providing it then ada's an idea man ; we have plenty of these up in wash dc. their product is called "unfunded mandates".
15:29 asciilifeform (a set of comparisons gets inserted by compiler on any operation that could result in walking out of the bounds)
15:30 mircea_popescu would be saner to add a mod at the tail of each op.
15:30 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: in all fairness this was only a surprise to asciilifeform because he is a n00b; the b00k warns explicitly, in black on white letters.
15:30 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: what the fuck will a mod do ??
15:30 mircea_popescu cut the value to size
15:30 asciilifeform BUT WE DO NOT WANT
15:30 asciilifeform to cut it.
15:31 mircea_popescu what do we want ?
15:31 asciilifeform we gotta ring red alarm , reactor is melting, if an arithmetic op results in exceeding range.
15:31 mircea_popescu the thing is called modular exponentiation you know :D
15:31 asciilifeform same as if you try to add 1 to a foo where type Foo is range 0 .. 10; and Q: Foo; and Q was already 10.
15:32 asciilifeform it is NOT the same as 'modular arithmetic', modular arithmetic is the behaviour of the native iron that we are going AWAY from here.
15:32 mircea_popescu aite.
15:32 asciilifeform y'know, the one where the boeing 787 engine melted.
15:32 asciilifeform and other beautiful things.
15:33 mircea_popescu so basically, what my mind has strained from this convo, is that ada implements bound checking badly ; in that it (wrongly) assumes that it can always source a larget item to compare to, like < size+1.
15:33 mircea_popescu should do <= size instead.
15:33 asciilifeform it implements it in the only way that is guaranteed to be invariant, and run in constant spacetime, on all iron.
15:33 mircea_popescu < as opposed to <= ?
15:33 asciilifeform by comparison to a constant.
15:33 asciilifeform problem is that you cannot represent MAXINT+1 as a constant !!
15:33 asciilifeform on any box!
15:33 mircea_popescu dude, stop picking the irrelevant. pick the meat of what i say.
15:34 mircea_popescu your choice is either < maxint + 1 or else <= maxint
15:34 mircea_popescu why the fucksticks did you pick the first.
15:34 asciilifeform maxint+1 DOESN'T SIT DOWN IN YOUR REGISTER
15:34 asciilifeform srsly
15:34 asciilifeform think for a minute.
15:34 mircea_popescu i think i'm done with this convo.
15:34 asciilifeform the fact won't go away if you put head in sand.
15:34 mircea_popescu so then why do you ?
15:35 mircea_popescu DO NOT implement bounds checking as "smaller than bound +1". DO implement bounds checking as "smaller or equal than bound".
15:35 asciilifeform pick a cpu, any cpu, let's work example ?
15:36 mircea_popescu i'm not interested in picking anything. bound checking is to be done by comparing TO THE BOUND not to some other random value picked by the compiler.
15:36 asciilifeform how do you compare to a bound that needs moar bits to represent than the number you are comparing ?
15:36 mircea_popescu and therefore question for type Foo is range 0 .. 10 must always be, is foo <= 10 ; not is foo < 11
15:37 asciilifeform let's revisit the particular of how you can even end up with an X that no longer sits down in 64 bits, using an op on an A and a B which ~do~
15:37 mircea_popescu because if the programmer said the number 10, the compiler is NOT at liberty to invent magic number 11.
15:38 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 'programmer said 11 -- we beat him with a stick' is trivial. of concern is arithmetic overflow/underflow.
15:38 mircea_popescu ...
15:39 asciilifeform in same language, program throws ~runtime~ exception if you EVER try to assign the 11, no matter how it was arrived at
15:39 asciilifeform it isn't a compile-time static thing
15:39 mircea_popescu so then what are you on about ?
15:40 asciilifeform that you can't do this for full machine-width integer. for fundamental reason, turns out.
15:40 asciilifeform you're stuck with 1 bit smaller quantities than the full bus width.
15:40 asciilifeform if you want sane runtime safety.
15:40 mircea_popescu which fundamental reasons entirely consist of "alf the bee dog with his magical black and white spots vision managed to read the expliciting of the < vs <= difference SIX TIMES and ignore it every time"
15:41 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it makes no difference !
15:41 mircea_popescu and why not ?
15:41 asciilifeform guaranteed. try it yourself.
15:42 mircea_popescu are you saying the problem ISN'T after all that "the compiler can't find 0x10000000000000000" as you originalyl stated, but that it can't be arsed to compare to 0xffffffffffffffff instead ?
15:43 asciilifeform comparing to 0xffffffffffffffff is not what the program stated, in the example. and since the compiler is sane, it does not substitute a semantically variant statement to what programmer wrote, under any circumstances.
15:43 asciilifeform instead it barfs.
15:43 mircea_popescu ahem.
15:43 mircea_popescu i thought bounds checking was introduced by the compiler not by the program.
15:43 asciilifeform 'you asked me to make 2 equal 4, go fuck yerself'
15:43 mircea_popescu indeed 0x10000000000000000 is not what the program stated ; and indeed the problem is that (if) the compiler adds one to what the program statyed ; it shouldn't do that.
15:44 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: if you write down a statement that is logically impossible to transform into compiled code, per the ground rules, it is a compiletime eggog.
15:44 asciilifeform the thing will not, like idiot cpp does, emit some 'but he REALLY WANTED THIS...'
15:44 mircea_popescu if the compile rules do "add one and <" the compiler is wrong ; it should not add one ad <=.
15:45 asciilifeform right! but in order for the machine to KNOW that it cannot, the ranges have to be representable.
15:45 mircea_popescu ...
15:45 mircea_popescu the range is 0 to 0xfffffffffffffff. the test is >=
15:45 mircea_popescu the range is 0 to 0xfffffffffffffff. the test is >= 0 and <= 0xfffffffffffffff.
15:45 mircea_popescu that is the test. all of it is representable.
15:46 asciilifeform let x == 0xfffffffffffffff . y = x + 1. is y in range ?
15:46 mircea_popescu the test MAY NOT BE > 0 (or -1 ?) and < 0x10000000000000000. if the compiler does that the compiler is very, very stupid.
15:47 mircea_popescu asciilifeform 0x10000000000000000 is not in range no ; 0x0 is in range, yes.
15:47 mircea_popescu it's not clear how you represent the y ; but whatever, half questions ftw.
15:48 asciilifeform y is of the constrained type contemplated.
15:48 asciilifeform in this example. and it gotta signal the overflow.
15:49 mircea_popescu is it 64 bit ?
15:49 asciilifeform in this case aha.
15:49 mircea_popescu you get memory access violation for trying to write at offset-1 in memory.
15:49 asciilifeform the cpu NEVER DOES THIS omfg
15:49 asciilifeform is not how 'add' instruction works.
15:49 mircea_popescu i didn't realise the above high level math was stand-in for asm.
15:50 mircea_popescu the cpu does bounds checking in your ada ?
15:50 asciilifeform to make bounds checking happen, on whatever particular cpu, gotta emit not only the add instruction but a few others also
15:50 asciilifeform for addition, this is actually simple on most chips, there is a 'carry' flag
15:50 asciilifeform problem comes with multiplication
15:50 mircea_popescu so if the carry flag is set you blew it.
15:51 asciilifeform aha, for add / sub it is trivial
15:51 asciilifeform now take mul .
15:51 mircea_popescu ok ?
15:52 mircea_popescu so you do 0x100000000 * 0x100000000 and get the carry set and you blew it.
15:53 asciilifeform that doesn't set the carry on x86...
15:53 mircea_popescu so it just returns the same as 0x000000000 + 0x000000000 ?
15:54 asciilifeform nope. x86 (and correspondingly x64) mul gives you ~two~ buswidth-sized results, the bottom and top half of the result.
15:54 mircea_popescu ok, so the carry being set, you blew it.
15:55 mircea_popescu top half being, obviously, THE FUCKING CARRY.
15:55 asciilifeform the top of the result, rather. but yes. on x64 you could!!! have the Right Thing bignumtron.
15:55 mircea_popescu ok. what's this to do with ada i dunno, but anyway, there it is.
15:55 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 'carry' on most chips refers to a physically separate 1bit register. but sure
15:55 mircea_popescu yes but here is used conceptually, as the "top half of the result", be it 1 bit or 1 machine word.
15:57 asciilifeform mircea_popescu has mega-point --- you CAN make range-checked (at least for upper bound of range not exceeding the native fixint size by more than factor of 2) behaviour on x86
15:58 asciilifeform but iirc the reason why we do not have this behaviour by default is that there are boxes that don't give you the upper bits of an overflowing mul. or set the carry.
15:58 mircea_popescu well i don't see how you can get 3 words by multiplying 1 word with another word.
15:59 mircea_popescu asciilifeform there's also fleshlights. i don't program on those.
15:59 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: there's another op defined for ring of integers, that is SHL
15:59 asciilifeform shl can give you as much overflow as you like.
16:00 * asciilifeform goes to the b00kz room to fetch 'ada 2012 rationale', to learn whether he is complete moron, or wat.
16:00 mircea_popescu well yes, but as long as the job is "check for machine word fixed type", the carry will save you.
16:03 mircea_popescu incidentally this whole thing with mul add etc is a fine working example for the in band / out of band discussion.
16:03 mircea_popescu ie, origin ally the philosophical minds prevailed, and a special wire was added (the carry). but then ww2 ended and saner minds prevailed ; thus double sized results on the same bus and the world went back to the peace and prosperity of everything in band.
16:04 asciilifeform actually that second thing only half-happened, you only get a second machineword out of mul on any known chip
16:04 asciilifeform and never from add/sub
16:04 mircea_popescu myeah. but if i ever make a chip myself, there's not going to be fucking carry speshul bit.
16:05 asciilifeform and i 100% agree, it is blitheringly idiotic, let ALL arithm ops return 2wordz!!
16:05 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: if i make a chip, all regs are 1 trit wide.
16:05 mircea_popescu it's literally from like 1939
16:05 asciilifeform throw out the dumb speshulcases.
16:05 mircea_popescu what's a trit
16:06 asciilifeform 3-state storage element.
16:06 mircea_popescu ie a glorified pointer ?
16:06 asciilifeform (you can elegantly implement with 2 ordinary binary registers, and use 4th state to store propagating-eggogs, aka NaNs)
16:06 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: no pointer contemplated, just knuth's trinary arithmetic scheme, familiar from kindergarten.
16:08 asciilifeform but forget, for this thread, trinary adders, you can just as readily have same arithmetron with binary regs
16:08 asciilifeform all regs are 1bit.
16:08 asciilifeform all nums -- 'bignums'.
16:08 asciilifeform this goes back to the 'dma' thread. large machine registers are an ad-hoc and clumsy form of parallelism.
16:09 asciilifeform where, yes, you can add 0xFFF......FFF and 1 in constant time, but the cost is that now some numbers are 'special'
16:09 mircea_popescu are you also going to have serial bus ?
16:09 mircea_popescu machine words exist because bus.
16:09 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: your box already has serial bus, nyooz at 11.
16:10 mircea_popescu seriously, single wire ?
16:10 asciilifeform not single, but < the actual logical width, almost certainly.
16:11 mircea_popescu and someone somewhere is going to want to talk of it directly rather than haskelly, and so they will use the concept of... machine words.
16:11 asciilifeform so you beat him with sticks.
16:11 mircea_popescu why ?
16:11 mircea_popescu he has a point.
16:11 mircea_popescu multi-wire bus delivers a specified amount of buckshot each fire.
16:11 asciilifeform because folx who want to break logical structure to get 'percept cycle massage' oughta be beaten with sticks.
16:11 asciilifeform *percent
16:12 mircea_popescu the only way to make them wrong would be to make your cpu work without clock and bus cycles.
16:12 mircea_popescu if you can't do that, they have a point.
16:12 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the correct parallelization scheme is N single-bit ALUs working in concert.
16:12 mircea_popescu and synced how
16:12 asciilifeform rather than arbitrary constant N-wide bus.
16:12 asciilifeform synced with muller gate.
16:12 mircea_popescu you understand, all this, cpu freq, bus aperture, words etc exist because simple and cheap solution to the clock problem
16:13 mircea_popescu maybe. i'd have to see the scheme.
16:13 asciilifeform it is neither simple nor particularly cheap.
16:13 asciilifeform the one thing it is, is ~familiar~.
16:13 mircea_popescu nothing ever is.
16:14 asciilifeform but when you open the hood you discover that there are all kinds of idiocies that 'people live with' because 'what else can you do'
16:20 asciilifeform http://blog.regehr.org/archives/1154 << see also.
16:21 asciilifeform looks like ARM might be the culprit.
16:22 mircea_popescu i couldn't care less what rust dork has to say on any topic.
16:22 asciilifeform !#s regehr
16:22 a111 6 results for "regehr", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=regehr
16:22 mircea_popescu rust is pretty much the anti-language ; as someone explained "the red hat decided to present it as the thing and hope for all the idiots to contribute freely to make it the thing for this reason".
16:22 mircea_popescu 0 support for usg.rhel "schelling point" delusions.
16:23 asciilifeform first time i see the d00d mention shitlangs. but the overflow thing affects shitlangs just as much as sanelangs.
16:23 mircea_popescu " I’ve heard that this results in a 5-10% slowdown for basically all JavaScript code."
16:23 mircea_popescu dude are you kidding me ; anything in javascript is a 2-500% slowdown over everything else.
16:24 asciilifeform if tomorrow knuth starts to harp about slow $shitlang, mircea_popescu will throw out his copy of aop ?
16:24 asciilifeform regehr is (or at least was) solid thinker, and the problem being spoken of, actually exists. there are archs with no sane overflow handling. and hence why gcc doesn't use, apparently, carry flag.
16:24 mircea_popescu no. and also not the first copy of scheider.
16:24 mircea_popescu but look where the harping got him.
16:25 mircea_popescu idiots, and by this i mean specifically intelligent ones, benefit immensely from warnings
16:25 mircea_popescu especially if they are then followes through with merciless, disfiguring beatings.
16:25 mircea_popescu the best thing you can do for a pianist in general is take a hammer to the fingers of the "most talented piano player of his generation" so he can never as much as open a can of tuna with his own hands ever again.
16:26 asciilifeform there is deep wisdom in this here this.
16:26 mircea_popescu so yes, i'm perfectly willing and entirely able to banish knuth.
16:27 asciilifeform (is knuth even alive still?)
16:27 mircea_popescu bad example, seeing how senescent senility is a fine excuse, but anyway
16:28 * asciilifeform prepares for inevitable long, painful dive into liquishit of gcc internals.
16:29 * asciilifeform cleans bathyscaphe.
~ 35 minutes ~
17:04 * jurov suspects that all the alf-alikes just barfed at JO instruction "no we want trapping! and true pyrex glass!"
~ 28 minutes ~
17:33 asciilifeform jurov: let's-have-programs-that-crash is not an admissible alternative.
~ 17 minutes ~
17:50 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> also, amendments to the constitution aren't made by congress. << I think they are referring to section 4 of the 25th amendment, tis a mess
~ 18 minutes ~
18:09 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all
18:09 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 964.13, vol: 9411.65085988 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 947.149, vol: 7155.77275 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 964.54, vol: 19383.26046051 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 972.726, vol: 6204.27230000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 969.316, vol: 3287.18573036 | Volume-weighted last average: 963.179653727
18:14 BingoBoingo LOL, Wapo flunkies: American's Support Trump http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/01/31/reuters_ipsos_muslim_ban_poll_finds_support_for_order.html
18:16 ben_vulpes "generic/Trump-friendly phrasing"
18:16 ben_vulpes zlozlzozl
18:20 ben_vulpes and in other what the everloving shits: https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/31/ycaclu/
~ 47 minutes ~
19:08 BingoBoingo !!deed http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/CwBNl/?raw=true
19:08 deedbot accepted: 1
19:13 deedbot http://qntra.net/2017/02/qntra-s-qntr-january-2017-report/ << Qntra - Qntra (S.QNTR) January 2017 Report
19:19 ben_vulpes aah, i get it. ycombinator is buying their way out of the sins of refusing to disavow thiel by "funding" the aclu.
19:28 BingoBoingo ben_vulpes That's not the words they used
19:31 ben_vulpes BingoBoingo: nono, i said it therefore it is
19:31 BingoBoingo AHA
19:32 ben_vulpes they probably need an app!
19:33 BingoBoingo Well in their words, YCuminasser is teaching ACLU how to spend money
19:33 BingoBoingo So probably a Rails app
19:36 ben_vulpes the specifics are irrelephant
19:41 BingoBoingo Nah, very R-elephant. ACLUOMGWTFBBQ and all along with their donors have been spending, spending, spending these past 11 days. Their march to povertree is lulzy
19:41 mod6 Ladies and Gentlemen of The Most Serene Republic; The latest State of Bitcoin Address: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2017-February/000246.html
↖
19:43 BingoBoingo tyvm mod6
19:43 mod6 yw, Sir.
19:46 ben_vulpes coolio mod6
19:47 mod6 o7
19:57 BingoBoingo https://imgoat.com/uploads/4ca4238a0b/558.jpg
20:10 mircea_popescu dun dun dun
20:10 * asciilifeform working on article!
20:10 mircea_popescu o hey
20:11 mircea_popescu !!reputation simonpenner
20:11 deedbot http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/GJO4N/?raw=true
20:11 mircea_popescu !!rate simonpenner runs status451.com
20:11 * deedbot hands you a broomstick.
20:11 mircea_popescu !!rate simonpenner 1 runs status451.com
20:11 deedbot Get your OTP: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/6m157/?raw=true
~ 21 minutes ~
20:33 ben_vulpes http://ropeculture.org/
20:41 shinohai O hey that guy finally dropped by mircea_popescu ?
20:42 mircea_popescu who ?
20:42 shinohai Simon Penner.
20:42 shinohai Must've missed it in lawgs
20:43 mircea_popescu ah yeah, came same day. turns out he just runs the blog though
20:43 deedbot http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1871 << Loper OS - Practical Lead to Gold Conversion; or an Intro to Opteron Resurrection.
20:43 mircea_popescu o.O
20:45 shinohai yay, Alchemy!
20:47 ben_vulpes right on, asciilifeform
20:47 asciilifeform needless to say i did not invent this recipe, it is ancient.
20:50 ben_vulpes nevertheless, a man in my wot republished it and so i did not have to go looking for it myself when the time came.
20:50 asciilifeform note, i had a spare board. but decided to try to repair the old one first.
20:51 asciilifeform (found spare unit by pure luck, vendor had ~one~ on shelf)
20:56 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: any idea who came up with the re-alloying trick?
20:56 asciilifeform dunno... robert wood ?
20:59 asciilifeform (d00d who wrote https://archive.org/details/howtotellbirdsfr00wood among other works.)
21:02 ben_vulpes > while etymologists concur, there is no b in plover
21:02 ben_vulpes lol'd
21:08 mod6 nice alf
21:15 deedbot http://deedbot.org/bundle-450968.txt
~ 1 hours 36 minutes ~
22:52 * asciilifeform stumbled on vintage lul, https://archive.is/bYrYc
23:00 asciilifeform 'Date: 2016.01.30' >> mod6 ?
23:00 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-01#1610495 << ^
23:00 a111 Logged on 2017-02-01 00:41 mod6: Ladies and Gentlemen of The Most Serene Republic; The latest State of Bitcoin Address: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2017-February/000246.html
23:06 mod6 oh, whoops. looks like i forgot what year it is.
23:06 mod6 my apologies.
23:07 mircea_popescu likely story. your flimsy cover-up of the time travel technology is not convincing anyone mod6
23:08 mod6 haha.
23:10 mod6 a few months back, i actually said it was "October" when it was in fact, November. No one said anything though. Every now and again, one sneaks by me.
23:10 BingoBoingo Time is over rated
23:11 mod6 maybe going forward, i'll add the most recent block height in there.
~ 35 minutes ~
23:46 mircea_popescu not a bad idea, at that.
23:47 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all
23:47 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 968.43, vol: 10702.30820958 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 948.223, vol: 8336.63461 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 967.84, vol: 23097.46684426 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 983.635362, vol: 8906.83050000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 968.508, vol: 3560.07076641 | Volume-weighted last average: 967.580662979
23:49 BingoBoingo http://epmonthly.com/article/deal-breakers-summa-story/
23:58 BingoBoingo "SEA delivered a counter-offer on December 12. It was a 15-year contract, which Wright admits was a stretch. He has since been lampooned for this ask in Crain’s Business."
23:59 BingoBoingo “They started with three [years], we came back with 15, and we expected to negotiate somewhere around seven to ten years.”
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