Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-09-18 | 2016-09-20 → ↓
00:39 ben_vulpes the underlying joke of 'abject failure' is that was never even remotely a purpose
00:42 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: "what dat" is a pregnant americanism, as for the second sentence, you need a rewrite to parse?
00:56 deedbot http://qntra.net/2016/09/paxful-executives-arrested-with-oodles-of-drugs/ << Qntra - Paxful "Executives" Arrested With Oodles Of Drugs
00:57 mircea_popescu i do.
01:00 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo "for as another aspiring businessman once wrote before his life had become unmanageable" << nothing can happen before had. you mean before became ?
01:00 mircea_popescu "denotes a quanity" also.
01:03 BingoBoingo ty fxd
01:16 mircea_popescu *thumbsup*
~ 17 minutes ~
01:33 BingoBoingo !~step10
01:33 jhvh1 10. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
~ 2 hours 45 minutes ~
04:19 adlai BingoBoingo: also in the footnote, 'establish' needs an -ing or -ment
04:21 adlai http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1544441 << that's a very short day! also, the 2nd F doesn't make much sense, i was pointing something out to phf specifically.
04:21 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 20:13 mircea_popescu: so i guess that's ANOTHER F for adlai ; to celebrate his first day back to "all day ircing".
04:29 adlai http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1544387 << nothing near as exciting, i knocked an office toy (magnetic paperclip people) off a doctor's desk while proving a point, which in his book counted as "violence!!!"; then i left the meeting, because they were wasting my time. sufficient cause, in this wonderful medical system, for an involuntary commitment. as one friend interpreted: "pissed off the wrong people"
04:29 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 19:35 mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#546 << wait, did you bust some dude's face ?
04:35 ben_vulpes i remember trying to make a point to a man who wanted to lock me up.
04:36 ben_vulpes i go for camo and not being noticed these days.
~ 4 hours 8 minutes ~
08:45 mircea_popescu adlai how do you justify sticking around to yourself in that context ?
↖
08:46 * mircea_popescu also remembers wanting to make points to inept bureaucrats with delusions of self importance. their whereabouts are unknown hence.
~ 1 hours 18 minutes ~
10:05 adlai mircea_popescu: "justify sticking around"? i'm not sure i understand what you're asking
10:13 mircea_popescu would you reference logs like sane people ? i'm not going to grep for the sake of extracting context for your lines.
10:15 adlai it's literally the second-to-last thing you typed... but here you go! http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-19#1544790
10:15 a111 Logged on 2016-09-19 12:45 mircea_popescu: adlai how do you justify sticking around to yourself in that context ?
10:15 BingoBoingo ty fxd
10:16 mod6 mornin'
10:16 mircea_popescu oh! sorry.
10:16 mircea_popescu adlai what i mean is, if that happened to me, i'd have simply left. permanently.
10:16 mircea_popescu how do you justify, eg, not joining the palestines in bombing the place, to yourself ?
10:17 mircea_popescu seems it must burn.
10:17 adlai aha. well, honestly i thought at the time that i'd just stormed out permanently, only found out hours later that i'd been turned into a fugitive
10:17 mircea_popescu so ?
10:18 mircea_popescu what, is it helplessnes, "oh i could never get away" ?
10:19 adlai it seemed like less effort to go through whatever process they wanted. i didn't realize at the start that it would last more than a couple days / week.
10:20 adlai and... i don't think every single conflict situation warrants a declaration of war. sometimes you need to fight, but sometimes you need to regroup first.
10:23 adlai several of the other people in the ward had 'run away' after a home visit, and got brought back by "men in white suits"
10:23 adlai maybe i'll put up a bigger fight next time, although i'd rather pick smarter fights.
10:26 mircea_popescu well "every conflict situation". what exactly can be salvaged once it's not safe to blow pins off a table ?
10:27 mircea_popescu derps dun wanna extend the personal space. has exactly nothing to do with you, your choices being either burn the derps down or die.
10:29 mircea_popescu but as i don't figure you much for the "bitch, you will clean my boots or wear a new kippah anchor point, right in your fucking forehead" type, i'd have expected you'd just left.
10:29 mircea_popescu what exactly has such place left to offer ?
10:29 adlai ok i see, by 'sticking around', and 'left', you mean leaving the country?
10:30 mircea_popescu not just the country. the whole thing. tell your mother she's a dumb whore, tell your father he's a total fucking idiot and you know fewer people you despise more, burn down everything in hebrew you own and never mention the accursed shithole ever again.
10:30 mircea_popescu except maybe visit once iran finally glasses it.
10:32 adlai socialist states can be bled from the inside, too
10:32 mircea_popescu it's a cultural space, like any other. just like any other, it has to satisfy a minimum bar to be allowed to continue to exist. it has failed to pay its capitation, and so consequently it has no furhter place in the world.
10:33 mircea_popescu well sure, i'm not specifically interested in the execution as a matter of detail.
10:33 mircea_popescu just used obvious example for sake of obviousness.
10:38 adlai out of curiosity, where would you recommend going, once i accumulate the means to do so on my own terms? you don't seem too pleased with your homeland or your current abode
10:39 adlai inner-mp quotes/paraphrases real-mp: "somewhere your girlfriend would never imagine visiting, but the stripper you met last night can't wait to go"
10:40 adlai my memory is insufficiently content-addressable to locate the exact article but i'm quite sure it's trilema
10:42 mircea_popescu but my dear man, how would i recommend ~for you~ ?
10:42 mircea_popescu pick something you like.
10:42 mircea_popescu or at least, that you're curious about.
10:44 mircea_popescu i will say however this "rezistenta prin cultura" / "socialist states can be bled from the inside, too" is exclusively for the very strong, ie powerful, ie dudes with own arsenal and harem. it's self-delusion, and of the worst sort, to think vulnerable young male could accomplish or should attempt such wonder.
10:45 adlai fair enough
10:46 mircea_popescu needs a very strong, and well reinforced, and old identity to be able to masquerade externally. take your examples from biology : viri manage to bleed the cell from the inside ; but it's risky business. mitochondria similarly thought - and look at it today!
10:52 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: and bleeding'em from outside (for the sake of argument positing that they ~have~ an outside) is available to weak/poor/haremless/etc. ??
10:54 deedbot http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-participate-in-the-affairs-of-the-most-serene-republic/ << Trilema - How to participate in the affairs of The Most Serene Republic
11:02 thestringpuller LOL! Coinbase bot hacked -> http://steamcommunity.com/groups/keyvendornet#announcements/detail/825672215667170249
11:02 thestringpuller "Our payment processor Coinbase.com was exploited and all Bitcoin and keys were stolen from the KeyVendor bot. These total to about $15,000. This was not, however, a direct security issue with the bot, but rather with Coinbase's merchant services."
11:09 shinohai run moar coinbase
~ 25 minutes ~
11:34 asciilifeform in other lulz, 'In the last two weeks many security professionals have praised Apple for reacting lightning fast to the PEGASUS threat that has been actively exploited in the wild. This praise was given because the parties involved kept samples from independent 3rd party researchers and did not reveal any detailed information about the kernel vulnerabilities involved to the public. Without this information the public simply assumed t
11:34 asciilifeform hat the PEGASUS surveillance malware was using completely new kernel vulnerabilities to takeover iOS devices and that Apple heard about these problems for the first time mid August 2016. Unfortunately after having reversed what kernel vulnerability has been used by the PEGASUS surveillance malware a completely different picture emerges: The kernel vulnerability known as CVE-2016-4656 was only still in the code because Apple patched C
11:34 asciilifeform VE-2016-1828 in May 2016 without doing a security review of the code in question. In only 20 lines of code THREE codepaths existed that allowed UAF. Apple fixed only one of those paths although the other release() methods were clearly right next to it in the code...'
11:34 asciilifeform ( http://sektioneins.de/en/blog/16-09-05-pegasus-ios-kernel-vulnerability-explained-part-2.html )
11:34 asciilifeform ^ kernel privesc found recently in crapple's entire product line. 'fixed' stuxnet-style.
11:36 thestringpuller mod6: considering the above and your research gathered via the #bitotter project, did you ever discover a reasonable mobile device? or are they all shit.
11:46 mod6 they're all shit, basically
11:47 asciilifeform not interchangeable shit, though.
11:48 asciilifeform in practice, typical turdroid box resembles housewife's winblows 98 - crawling with popup maggots, 'mysteriously' slow, bristling with adware, etc.
11:49 asciilifeform while crapple box, with its various familiar faults, chugs along more or less eternally in the condition it left the crate
11:49 shinohai oh heya mod6 .... new vpatched worked for me and stripped binary accordingly.
11:49 asciilifeform (either until the iron mysteriously fails, two weeks out of warranty, or for decades)
11:50 thestringpuller crapple does the whole "planned obsolescence" bs
11:50 asciilifeform crapple box is quite comparable to a stainless steel prison toilet - it resists whatever attempt at modification, either by user or whatever shitware he syphilitically encounters
11:50 thestringpuller it's all downhill for your crapply compy's as "updates" come out
11:51 asciilifeform thestringpuller: there are not so many vendors that patch old shit eternally
11:51 asciilifeform and the incidence of such a thing at a konsooomer-friendly price point is ~0.
11:52 thestringpuller tell that to El Capitan update that miraculously made my work computer slower
11:53 asciilifeform lel, the victi^H^H^H^H^Hcustomers complain when you don't patch, and when you do...
11:57 deedbot http://www.contravex.com/2016/09/19/book-of-mormon/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - Book of Mormon.
12:04 mod6 shinohai: nice! thanks for testing that.
12:04 mod6 I'll conduct a bunch more testing tonight. I think this one looks a lot better with just having one 'deps' dir.
12:04 shinohai Yeah it is waaaaay cleaner
12:05 shinohai But I'll do 2-3 more throughout the day, letcha know results later.
12:08 asciilifeform !!up gabriel_laddel
12:08 deedbot gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
12:09 gabriel_laddel I have two machines connected by an ethernet cable that can ping one another after I setup ip addresses on them via "ip ad add 10.0.0.10/24 dev eth0" and "ip ad add 10.0.0.20/24".
12:10 gabriel_laddel Am currently trying to send a string from A to B (must be over the ethernet cable) so as to make networked CLIM.
12:10 gabriel_laddel If anyone knows the netcat command that would do this, I'm all ears.
12:10 gabriel_laddel (does not have to be netcat, happy to use anything so long as I can eventually migrate it into my lisp process)
12:13 asciilifeform nc -u localhost 1337
12:13 asciilifeform on listening end
12:13 asciilifeform echo -n "foo" | nc -u -w1 your.box.ip.addr 1337
12:13 asciilifeform to transmit.
12:14 asciilifeform (if you're using a crossover snake between two nics there is no conceivable reason to use anything but udp datagram)
12:14 asciilifeform supposing your strings are reasonably short, gabriel_laddel .
12:14 asciilifeform < 65,507 byte.
12:14 trinque why aren't you just opening a socket in lisp?
12:15 asciilifeform trinque: i'm assuming he doesn't want to use a library, hence the netcat
12:15 trinque I don't see how shelling out is superior
12:15 asciilifeform it isn't
12:15 gabriel_laddel I'm perfectly happy to use a lisp socket, but if I can't do it via netcat, I don't think it'll work via lisp
12:15 asciilifeform trinque: presumably he wants to test with bare hands, etc.
12:15 gabriel_laddel also wtf now my machines cannot ping one another..
12:17 trinque might want to study networking basics before writing another line of code.
12:17 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: i'm fresh out of telekinesis pills, cannot debug your nic...
12:18 gabriel_laddel just a minute, have rebooted both machines.
12:18 gabriel_laddel trinque: I can easily connect one lisp to another over wifi, but want to force it over an ethernet cable
12:18 gabriel_laddel trinque: idk what basics I'd be studying?
12:20 trinque the route command for one
12:20 trinque also how to up and down nics
12:23 trinque this "the system is icky and I will only learn enough about it to infect it with my own" is precisely the mentality that has *kept* lisp coders as refugees in foreign operating systems.
12:23 gabriel_laddel That's nonsense.
12:23 trinque oh is it
12:24 gabriel_laddel Lisp coders are refugees because they act like little girls.
12:25 gabriel_laddel It is a revolt against G-d and all that is good and true that there does not exist a platform, even on UNIX that one can buy for lisp development.
12:25 gabriel_laddel This should have been taken care of years ago =
12:25 trinque read moar logs
12:26 trinque particularly the recent lisp machine thread
12:26 gabriel_laddel I'm up to date on the logs, and respectfully disagree.
12:27 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#85 << yes. as per the mitochondria example, merely not being there significantly bleeds it.
12:27 scriba Logged on 2016-09-19: [14:52:01] <asciilifeform> mircea_popescu: and bleeding'em from outside (for the sake of argument positing that they ~have~ an outside) is available to weak/poor/haremless/etc. ??
12:27 mircea_popescu very dubious that you'll be able to outdo that from inside.
12:27 asciilifeform if gabriel_laddel recently uploaded a commonlisp that doesn't behave like a retarded child when, e.g., socket shits itself 10,000time/sec, i must've missed..?
12:27 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#86 << if anyone can think of stuff to add lemme know.
12:27 scriba Logged on 2016-09-19: [14:54:32] <deedbot> http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-participate-in-the-affairs-of-the-most-serene-republic/ << Trilema - How to participate in the affairs of The Most Serene Republic
12:28 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: consider emplacing the thing into the #t subjline
12:28 asciilifeform imho it belongs there.
12:28 mircea_popescu lessee
12:30 mod6 shinohai: thanks for doing that!
12:31 mircea_popescu asciilifeform good point. i moved all the topic links in there.
12:31 asciilifeform neato.
12:33 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#90 << the trend is going to continue ; separation between "soviet truth" and truth is uncurable once introduced.
12:33 scriba Logged on 2016-09-19: [15:34:12] <asciilifeform> in other lulz, 'In the last two weeks many security professionals have praised Apple for reacting lightning fast to the PEGASUS threat that has been actively exploited in the wild. This praise was given because the parties involved kept samples from independent 3rd party researchers and did not reveal any detailed information about the kernel
12:33 scriba vulnerabilities involved to the public. Without this information the public simply assumed t
12:35 gabriel_laddel asciilifeform: with the example you've provided I send the "foo" string and nothing occurs on the other side. If I remove the "-u" option from nc, (UNKNOWN) [10.0.0.20] 8002 (?) : Connection refused
12:35 gabriel_laddel substitute localhost, same thing
12:35 gabriel_laddel are there any decent irc channels for this sort of thing aside from ##networking?
12:36 mircea_popescu not afaik.
12:36 gabriel_laddel Also, oddly enough, ping returns "Network is unreachable" after sending 20ish messages, on both ends.
12:36 asciilifeform ahahahaha
12:37 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: you might have the other version of netcat
12:37 asciilifeform thing is maintained by braindamaged folks, and so you might have to:
12:37 asciilifeform nc -l -u -p 1337
12:37 gabriel_laddel trinque: see?
12:37 asciilifeform on the listening end.
12:37 gabriel_laddel asciilifeform: equery m netcat outputs what for you?
12:37 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: i just tested the thing i pasted from my notes, on the box i'm presently sitting at, and it did not work. but this latter one - did.
12:38 gabriel_laddel trinque: this is where ALL of my time gets wasted. Trying to figure out what fking flag to send some unix BS that should be clearly documented for THE MACHINE I AM WORKING ON.
12:38 mircea_popescu !!up gabriel_laddel
12:38 deedbot gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
12:38 gabriel_laddel locally, in a manual.
12:38 mircea_popescu welcome to everyone's life.
12:38 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: 110-r9
12:38 gabriel_laddel ty
12:39 phf it is clearly documented, in a man page
12:39 asciilifeform lel phf
12:39 gabriel_laddel while we're here - does anyone know of a script that downloads the whole of the gentoo documentation?
12:39 mircea_popescu i would expect it's in the official republican gentoo package ?
12:40 gabriel_laddel phf: either I cannot read, or the man pages are inadequate.
12:40 mircea_popescu which iirc alf maintained.
12:40 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i maintain a delousing spray strictly.
12:40 mircea_popescu sort-of maintains.
12:40 gabriel_laddel phf: something as simple as "network some computers together with ethernet and observe the sexpr from one draw some stuff on another" should work 100% of the time and be clearly documented.
12:41 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#137 << at least he's up to date with the latest in computing technology from windows/apple/mit etc
12:41 scriba Logged on 2016-09-19: [16:18:08] <gabriel_laddel> just a minute, have rebooted both machines.
12:41 gabriel_laddel mircea_popescu: the scary thing is that it worked.
12:41 phf he's having these problems, ~because~ reboot is his debugging strategy
12:41 mircea_popescu i'm sure a lot can be done to bleed the computer socialism from inside.
12:41 shinohai "at least he's up to date with the latest in computing technology from windows/apple/mit etc" <<< lolz
12:42 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: no voodoo here, to turn on the autocrossover you gotta reset the nic. but on sane os this DOES NOT REQUIRE REBOOT omgwtf
12:42 asciilifeform ifconfig cunt0 down
12:42 asciilifeform ifconfig cunt0 up
12:42 gabriel_laddel Thank you. That is both clear and helpful.
12:42 mircea_popescu wait, literally ? cunt-0 ?!
12:42 mircea_popescu this is oddly appropriate.
12:42 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: how am i to know what it is on his box.
12:42 asciilifeform textbook illustration
12:43 mircea_popescu but if you think about it...
12:43 mircea_popescu that's how they reproduce, right ?
12:43 gabriel_laddel asciilifeform: aha! it worked
12:43 * shinohai renames his interfaces to cunt0
12:44 gabriel_laddel Thank you. A tsmr~ ghetto with its own CLIM-web internet is now possible.
12:44 mircea_popescu gabriel_laddel ironically, turns out trinque did have a point eh.
12:44 gabriel_laddel trinque: about what?
12:44 gabriel_laddel err, mircea_popescu about what?
12:44 mircea_popescu networking basics lel.
12:44 gabriel_laddel for what platform?
12:44 mircea_popescu well, i think ~all unixen reset their cunt the same way.
12:44 gabriel_laddel how am I to know what documentation is or is not valid on various UNIXen, bsds etc
12:44 mircea_popescu at least never met one that didn't.
12:45 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: if you get tired of having to toggle the nic to autocrossover, get out a pair of scissors and make an actual crossover snake
12:45 gabriel_laddel mircea_popescu: the only way to learn that is by aptly named brute force.
12:45 mircea_popescu this much is true.
12:45 gabriel_laddel self-documenting hardware/software is the ~ bare minimum ~ of civilized computing.
12:46 mircea_popescu but yes, your dream of "manpage magically adequate to the system it's on" is not entirely without dreampower.
12:46 gabriel_laddel dood whatever, I'm running this example between two masamune machines and adding it to the masamune manual.
12:47 gabriel_laddel when I run into the friend with another masamune machine to we can now have a networked CLIM party
12:47 mircea_popescu so far other than the theory of lisp, there's no known way to do this other than "somone does the bruteforce for you on an exact copy of your machine"
12:47 gabriel_laddel mircea_popescu: that is correct. Hence enforcing a SINGLE hardware platform from which to generalize.
12:47 trinque in related lul, I installed gentoo on this here laptop this weekend, and promptly removed it after x11 terminals couldn't be launched because /dev/pts is a magical fake filesystem with apparently myriad knobs and switches.
12:48 * trinque can't wait until masamune realizes that google fucked gentoo into a million pieces
12:48 mircea_popescu "civilisation" begets totalitarianism you say ? who could have predicted!
12:48 gabriel_laddel trinque: my masamune builds are all from the old masamune.
12:48 gabriel_laddel trinque: it does not interact with google
12:48 asciilifeform trinque: pts isn't a gentoo-specific ball of shit
12:48 gabriel_laddel or the mirrors or or or
12:48 trinque asciilifeform: no but whichever gentoo init script or something wasn't bolting it on correctly
12:49 trinque and I cannot be arsed to care anymore
12:49 trinque openbsd has a proper static file dev
12:49 phf and we're back to naggum maintaining his own emacs
12:49 asciilifeform trinque: care to document the crater ?
12:49 mircea_popescu phf not exactly back, but only in the narrow strict sense that we are not alone.
12:49 gabriel_laddel ^
12:49 trinque asciilifeform: was "get_pty" something about out of ptys, where sysctl was set to max 4096
12:49 asciilifeform thus far, every time i sit down and make a gentoo box, more or less ~yearly since '06 or so, it ... works
12:50 asciilifeform and i don't get any of these mysterious wtf's.
12:50 mircea_popescu trinque you see how horribru your error reporting is ? ?? ???
12:50 trinque musl?
12:50 asciilifeform trinque: nope. i've yet to try mussolating it
12:50 phf well, gabriel_laddel doesn't have the patience to grok the system he's hosting on from the user perspective, how's he going to upkeep it from the dev perspective?
12:50 trinque asciilifeform: they broke musl
12:50 trinque I last built my musl recipe in jan, worked fine
12:50 asciilifeform trinque: if i had a working mussolinic gentoo, i'd never have cooked up 'rotor'
12:50 asciilifeform because it would not be then necessary
12:50 gabriel_laddel phf: by selling them and paying other people to do it
12:51 mircea_popescu phf in his defense, nobody has any fucking patience to fuck with computers. if anyone did, they wouldn't be learning how to program.
12:51 phf you mean jackdaniel? ;)
12:51 gabriel_laddel phf: heh
12:51 gabriel_laddel phf: did you see the screenshot of the CLIM gui I wrote around portage?
12:52 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: if you think such a thing is remotely a good idea, and that the crud will not irreparably spill out from under the 'skin', i got a bridge to sell ya.
12:52 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#146 << he IS up to date on the logs huh.
12:52 scriba Logged on 2016-09-19: [16:25:37] <gabriel_laddel> It is a revolt against G-d and all that is good and true that there does not exist a platform, even on UNIX that one can buy for lisp development.
12:52 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> wait, literally ? cunt-0 ?! << On my box: hole0
12:53 BingoBoingo Next fiddling may become ass0
12:53 mircea_popescu you people are way cooler than me. i still got eth
12:53 gabriel_laddel asciilifeform: the purpose of masamune is to provide funds for the republic (by selling them) and a development platform from which to build new hardware.
12:54 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: didja sell enough to buy a postbox yet ?
12:54 mircea_popescu gabriel_laddel dun mind the esteemed lords, they just hate young men for the obvious reason.
12:54 gabriel_laddel asciilifeform: nope.
12:54 asciilifeform eh.
12:54 gabriel_laddel nothing was going on this weekend!
12:56 asciilifeform if gabriel_laddel does not care to listen to asciilifeform's observation, it is strictly his own problem. but here it is, for phreeeeee: you cannot abstract against broken software, with other software. or at all.
12:56 mircea_popescu actually afaik this is formally proven.
12:57 mircea_popescu (the "with software" part, i mean)
12:57 gabriel_laddel asciilifeform: look, we can and do hack around and get things done in broken software everyday. If an environment exists in which one can WITH A SINGLE PROCEDURE CALL write the "world" out to a USB/CD/whatever it should be a plenty stable platform for whatever computations are required for new hardware.
12:57 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: and then we are stuck with the pile of hack.
12:58 asciilifeform which the next gabriel_laddel tries to abstract against.
12:58 trinque ftr I would not begrudge a new emacs
12:58 asciilifeform result: winblows 10
12:58 gabriel_laddel what, you want to design the loper device using punch cards?
12:58 trinque but it will be a new emacs, and I will regard it with the same resentment
12:58 gabriel_laddel why even bother with gossipd?
12:58 asciilifeform programmers have a mindboggling lack of grasp of basic ecology even compared to illiterate afghani goat herders.
12:58 mircea_popescu you notice gossipd as specified is not related to implementation yes ?
12:59 phf trinque: there's a handful of adequate contenders, problem with emacs is that everyone wants all those hacky, emacs-version-specific .el files that actually do stuff
12:59 gabriel_laddel mircea_popescu: "but you can't abstract over hardware"
12:59 gabriel_laddel nuh un, no way
12:59 gabriel_laddel can't and doesn't happen. Never ever ever.
12:59 mircea_popescu you're talking about different things, though.
12:59 gabriel_laddel are we?
13:00 gabriel_laddel trinque: climacs?
13:00 gabriel_laddel trinque: afaik, solves all the problems with the old one (lack of multithreading, elisp is crap etc)
13:00 asciilifeform except for the part where it needs clim
13:00 gabriel_laddel trinque: also can display arbitrary graphics
13:01 asciilifeform at 5fps.
13:01 asciilifeform with athena.
13:01 phf asciilifeform: fwiw there isn't actual athena in mcclim, it's a skin designed to look that way
13:01 gabriel_laddel !!google cap-lore.com "gabriel laddel"
13:01 deedbot No results.
13:02 asciilifeform phf: even worse!
13:02 asciilifeform 'i'm not a transgendered goat, i dress up as one voluntarily'
13:03 mircea_popescu yes. the "can't abstract broken software with other software" is a restatement of godel, "There may not exist specific algorithm A for any formal system F that includes statements of certain elementary mathematical truth as well as its own consistency so that A will create subsystem F' which is consistent and an homology of F"
13:03 trinque gabriel_laddel: I called *your* thing an emacs, figuratively. It is "chinatown", place within a place.
13:04 trinque this isn't a reason not to do it, but it describes limitations that are unavoidable
13:04 trinque google *will* rape the linux out from under you
13:04 gabriel_laddel how?
13:04 gabriel_laddel they'll steal my computers?
13:05 trinque this "denial as motivational mechanism" thing is *why* the esteemed lordship hates young men, ftr
13:05 trinque :p
13:05 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: they trivially, six time before breakfast, make it ~impossible to reproduce your comp
13:05 phf asciilifeform: that was an fyi. mcclim's x backend is clx, i.e. fully networked. there's no actually ffi of any kind happening there
13:05 gabriel_laddel asciilifeform: my comp already reproduces on identical hardware!
13:05 trinque one should have a plan to make hardware if he intends to do anything in computing going forward.
13:05 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: which you make with own hands, out of mineral ?
13:05 trinque gabriel_laddel: it does not reproduce the hardware!
13:05 gabriel_laddel holy fuck ebay exists
13:05 asciilifeform phf: i know this.
13:06 mircea_popescu this is getting painful to watch.
13:06 asciilifeform ^
13:06 mircea_popescu no but. everyone talking about his own thing! what is this!
13:07 mircea_popescu trinque having a sane prototype is not a bad idea ; whether you can or you can't make it.
13:07 asciilifeform there is no such thing as sane prototype of insane concept.
13:07 trinque oh, I told him "make the thing" and always do
13:07 mircea_popescu asciilifeform a) all concepts are insane ; b) the only way this is ever usefully established is through prototyping.
13:08 phf asciilifeform: well, then you're saying things that contradict what you claim to know
13:08 asciilifeform i dun need to actually construct railway bridge from toothpicks to say conclusively that it is dumb.
13:08 mircea_popescu asciilifeform YOU don't. because one's ideology, ie, theoretical insight, is a shield for that one.
13:08 mircea_popescu but this speaks not of railroads.
13:08 asciilifeform hey, who insists - can go, build.
13:08 mircea_popescu railroad bridge DOES need to be constructed out of toothpicks.
13:09 asciilifeform !!up gabriel_laddel
13:09 deedbot gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
13:09 gabriel_laddel asciilifeform: you remember my asking after a hardware database?
13:09 mircea_popescu ehehehe. did i mention very early trilema was discussing the eventual mysql chip ?
13:10 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: iirc the thread was about a pedestrian list of 'hardware we like'
13:10 gabriel_laddel asciilifeform: essentially I would like all information available about all hardware vendors, neatly organized.
13:10 asciilifeform rather than 'electrical db'
13:10 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: it is a very very short list.
13:10 gabriel_laddel even if this is just a list of .pdf files I can parse
13:10 * trinque isn't mad at the idea of a hardware db
13:10 phf a friend of mine bought a house in san francisco last year, because he's working on "mysql chip", really an fpga that does a bunch of mysql specific optimizations. (mostly query compilation)
13:11 gabriel_laddel and on that note, I'm off.
13:11 asciilifeform phf: this is actually a mature market in, e.g., gene sequence biz
13:11 asciilifeform phf: can buy by the crate.
13:11 mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/2010/curiozitate-calculatoristica/#selection-73.0-77.118 << "The question then is, when do you suppose we'll see the first MySql chip, incapable of loading an os or anything"
13:11 trinque phf: iirc couple companies are bolting GPUs to postgres too
13:12 mircea_popescu phf im pretty sure that if db-on-a-chip happens, it'll be mysql first. much to the chagrin of sane people.
13:12 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it would if it could.
13:12 asciilifeform thing dun map well to single-purpose si.
13:12 mircea_popescu myeah. afaik no statically linked mysql was yet made, which is kinda a first step
13:13 trinque since gabriel_laddel reads logs, the point was, if you're building atop linux, better actually know linux
13:13 trinque iirc another such character did pretty well bolting shiny things to a BSD
13:13 asciilifeform well, did well in the circus
13:13 asciilifeform where shiny - counts.
13:15 trinque if he even gets an inkling that there's a professional computing market that'll be useful information.
13:15 asciilifeform trinque: there is a pro number crunching market.
13:15 asciilifeform there ~isn't a pro computing market.
13:15 asciilifeform (as in, with human, in a chair, looking at a screen)
13:15 mircea_popescu really, making a lisp that works for serious applications in this sense is outside his pay grade
13:18 mircea_popescu but anyway, leaving the discussion aside for a moment to focus on the meta discussion : am i the only one who's a little irked by the fact that kid wants to do x, gets list of instructions to not do x ? what is this, the nuclear family, elementary unit of the state ?
13:18 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: what is to be gained from ~not telling~ the kid that the dead end is a dead end ?
13:18 mircea_popescu really ?
13:18 asciilifeform it isn't as if we tied him to a pole to keep him from going into it.
13:18 mircea_popescu "dad i wanna get married" "honeybunch, you'll get old and your tits will sag and it'll suck. don't get married, it's a dead end"
13:19 mircea_popescu it ~is~ as if all you wanna talk about is why he shouldn't do what he figures he wants to do. this isn't very bright, is it ?
13:19 mircea_popescu give kid as much rope to hang self with as kid can carry.
13:20 asciilifeform i'd personally rather see folks explore directions that haven't been explored to agonizing death and conclusively mapped as dead.
13:20 mircea_popescu but who asked you ?
13:20 asciilifeform but possibly that's just me.
13:20 mircea_popescu no, it's not just you, it's me too. but he didn't ask us!
13:20 trinque doesn't bother me one bit, only demonstrated that "I don't know how to network these two machines" and got thunked to... learn that.
13:20 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: in point of fact, gabriel_laddel asked.
13:20 mircea_popescu link me ?
13:21 mircea_popescu trinque his objection is to the notion of "learn" and "knowledge" involved in that statement though, you might've noticed. and i don't really see it's altogether weak.
13:22 asciilifeform !#s from:gabriel_laddel
13:22 a111 3092 results for "from:gabriel_laddel", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Agabriel_laddel
13:22 mircea_popescu what, seriously, he asked you 3092 times ?
13:22 asciilifeform fella 'asks' regularly, 'my bulldog head that i stitched onto this rhinoceros just won't wake up, plox help'
13:22 mircea_popescu this is not that, however.
13:23 trinque mircea_popescu: he is *not* replacing the underlying system and thus cannot avoid developing comprehensive knowledge of how *it* works before plonking whatever atop it and calling it something
13:23 trinque I will deny he "knows" masamune on the same grounds
13:23 mircea_popescu trinque yah, but now it's in a much better formulation. at least to my taste.
13:23 asciilifeform a dude who believes that he is genuinely solving some actual problem by bolting a gui onto 'portage', is engaging in willful idiocy
13:23 asciilifeform precisely of the kind mircea_popescu and other sane folk decry
13:24 mircea_popescu asciilifeform can you show this to be truth ?
13:24 mircea_popescu (i'm not even proposing it isn't, just wanna see what the showing would look like.)
13:25 asciilifeform depending on what kind of 'show' -- straight to (as mircea_popescu cited earlier) the good doctor godel
13:25 asciilifeform but if instead 'practical' demonstration - can point to nearly any pile of shit in software land as proof
13:25 mircea_popescu anyway. most of my concern is that your (plural) heartfelt advice is remarkably unpersuasive. gotta wonder wtf devil is at work here.
13:26 asciilifeform it is unpersuasive for the very familiar reason that every boy thinks himself uncrowned king of universe
13:26 asciilifeform (which translates into an amazing spectrum of cognitive slips)
13:27 asciilifeform 'if i don't understand how foobar works, i can declare it irrelevant and never need to understand'
13:27 asciilifeform 'if foobar is broken, i will put it in BIG FUCKING BOTTLE from which it WON'T DARE escape'
13:27 asciilifeform etc.
13:27 mircea_popescu there is some of that.
13:27 BingoBoingo http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=5269
13:28 mircea_popescu but it's also structurally broken ; because it fails to neatly reduce uncrowned king of universe via reduction to absurd. which is the measure of persuasion, apud socrates.
13:28 asciilifeform at no point is the notion that 'irrelevant' foobar will dissolve the bottle, the desk, the floor, the house, your mother, and you, and the town - contemplated.
13:28 mircea_popescu ipso definitio.
13:30 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: your potential 'clean' and structurally-perfect philosophical pill will have same 0 effect as my 'dirty' one.
13:30 asciilifeform because the ill is not curable.
13:30 mircea_popescu the ill gotta be curable at least on occasion, or else you're stuck explaining this place.
13:31 asciilifeform the one thing that cures is the years going by and the patient bashing himself bloody against the concrete wall of the 'ignored and abstracted'.
13:31 mircea_popescu hence http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#374 yes ?
13:31 scriba Logged on 2016-09-19: [17:19:45] <mircea_popescu> give kid as much rope to hang self with as kid can carry.
13:31 mircea_popescu gotta be a lot more nurturing in the way of rope supplies, by your own theory ?
13:32 asciilifeform eh hey i dun recall ever deying him the requested rope.
13:32 asciilifeform e.g., today's netcat.
13:32 asciilifeform *denying
13:32 mircea_popescu this is tru.
13:33 mircea_popescu "dad, i want to put the cat's head on the dog's body, can i borrow your hair trimmer ?" "that won't work, it's too small and it will get clogged in blood. here's the chainsaw."
13:33 mircea_popescu and if the above horrifies wife, get rid of her.
13:34 asciilifeform speaking of which, did mircea_popescu ever visit town of barriloche ?
13:34 asciilifeform where mengele et al lived out their days.
13:34 asciilifeform iirc it isn't far from mircea_popesculandia.
13:35 asciilifeform ( it must've been a real downer for these folks, who turned into boring, snoring car mechanics, dentists, etc. 'hey, remember when we used to saw dude apart and stitch his head onto his arse? ' 'shuddup, pass the oil pan' )
13:40 ben_vulpes in other 'own thing', 'prototyping' and 'omgwtfbbq' nyooz, this is where i threw my hands up and went to bed last night: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/m8mjo/?raw=true
13:41 ben_vulpes obvs my thinger is broken in that the hash is wrong, but amusingly i get the sequence number as tx in index
13:42 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: 0xffffffff ???
13:42 ben_vulpes however many f's you need for a u256
13:43 ben_vulpes but the strange thing is that i read the sequence number where i expected to see the index
13:43 asciilifeform endian issue ?
13:43 ben_vulpes so now to the source and hexdump to see how individual transactions are structured
13:44 asciilifeform source, lulzily, is quite unhelpful because of the 'serialization' abstraction it liberally makes use of
13:44 ben_vulpes i doubt it, as everything so far is little-endian, and only by convention reversed by early block explorers to show the zeros first or who the fuck knows i've never found a sensible explanation for reversing block hashes (and only block hashes!)
↖
13:44 ben_vulpes oh trust me i fucking know
13:45 asciilifeform https://github.com/lbotsch/wireshark-bitcoin << not a wholly bad guide to the thing
13:45 asciilifeform esp. if coupled with actual working wireshark + trb node.
13:47 mircea_popescu asciilifeform haven't bothered, no.
13:47 * ben_vulpes is looking for the log line where asciilifeform made a comment about how the block structure was trivially deduceable from the source, a few days ago after i published the header serialization snippet
13:47 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: fwiw, i have nfi what, if anything, is left there to see.
13:47 mircea_popescu exactly.
13:47 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: 'trivially' means different things to different people.
13:48 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: but look on bright side: if you have the thing running on your box, it won't run away, you can vivisect it until you learn whatever you wanted to learn.
13:49 asciilifeform you will never have to go to the town market to buy a new rhinoceros or new bulldog, you can cut the head of this one as many times as it takes.
13:49 mircea_popescu word.
13:49 ben_vulpes yeah i have the vast majority of blocks serialized to disk and am trimming them apart.
13:49 mircea_popescu the jools you'll find...
13:50 mircea_popescu iirc "this means your disk now contains child porn".
13:50 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: these already lived in a consecutive pile.
13:50 asciilifeform !#s blkcut
13:50 a111 25 results for "blkcut", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=blkcut
13:50 ben_vulpes yes i recall
13:51 ben_vulpes i'm leaning on dumpblock to get them in chain-order
13:52 ben_vulpes (and only the ones in the main chain, atm)
13:52 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: it helps to remember that the blockchain is ~not~ in actuality a simple linear sequence
13:53 asciilifeform at the frayed tail end, it is ~always~ potentially bifurcated
13:53 ben_vulpes 'tis a tree
13:53 asciilifeform (and trb does in fact store orphaned blocks eternally)
13:53 ben_vulpes and i believe that the thing hangs on to short chains
13:53 asciilifeform it hangs on to any orphaned chain
13:53 asciilifeform because there is no fundamental way to weasel out of doing so
13:53 asciilifeform (you don't know that it will be orphaned until later)
13:54 asciilifeform this is quite obvious, neh ?
13:54 ben_vulpes rather.
13:54 ben_vulpes when i need to handle reorgs, i'll do so.
13:55 asciilifeform i ran into this caltrop when diffing my blocks with mircea_popescu's way back when
13:55 asciilifeform when i was doing the repeatable-sync experiments.
13:55 ben_vulpes mhm
13:55 asciilifeform turned out that we had differing records of orphaned blox.
13:55 asciilifeform in handful of spots.
13:55 ben_vulpes while i have your attention, asciilifeform, am i doing this entirely incorrectly? http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/azncd/?raw=true
13:56 ben_vulpes (if the thing had an adult database, the tree would fall naturally out of foreign keys on height, from each block to its parents)
13:57 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: what do you have against 'case' operator ?
13:57 ben_vulpes oh! none.
13:57 ben_vulpes easily fixed. i'm more interested in correct use-of-binary-types
13:57 asciilifeform it is painful to read
13:58 ben_vulpes i wasted an inordinate amount of time on various false starts in storing variable length fields.
13:58 asciilifeform and your cases fallthrough into neverneverland
13:58 ben_vulpes fell back to a setf from read-binary.
13:58 ben_vulpes my cases in particular?
13:58 asciilifeform e.g., what happens if first-octet is < 253 ?
13:58 asciilifeform or hm nm
13:59 ben_vulpes funny, that's the exact same misread trinque made.
14:07 phf ben_vulpes: you don't have to store first-octet since, it's a property of variable-integer (also if you change variable-integer, you'll have to make sure to correspondingly update first-octet)
14:09 asciilifeform (defmethod sizeof ((type varint))
14:09 asciilifeform (with-slots (first-octet)
14:09 asciilifeform type
14:09 asciilifeform (case first-octet
14:09 asciilifeform (253 3)
14:09 asciilifeform (254 5)
14:09 asciilifeform (255 9)
14:09 asciilifeform (t 1))))
14:09 asciilifeform ben_vulpes ^
14:10 asciilifeform and similar for the other one.
14:10 phf well, while asciilifeform's yak shaving, i don't think this is correct way to handle the type
14:11 asciilifeform phf: i dunno that binary-types offers a clean way of handling this type
14:11 ben_vulpes far tidier asciilifeform ty
14:11 ben_vulpes phf: i am open, nay, desperate for alternatives
14:12 ben_vulpes phf: i do believe that i have to hold onto first-octet, if it's less than 253 it *is* the length.
14:12 phf ben_vulpes: no.
14:13 ben_vulpes go on?
14:13 phf the type is called compact size (in bitcoin src parlance), it is simply an number. the reader reads a byte, decides what to do, ultimately returns ~the number~
14:14 phf so it's up to reader to decide if it should return first octet as ~the number~ or read first octet and read a bunch of stuff after and return that as ~the number~
14:14 ben_vulpes gotcha
14:14 phf the writer likewise knows all it needs to know about how to serialize from ~the number~. the check becomes "in which range it is, in which case write it thus"
14:15 ben_vulpes mhm!
14:15 ben_vulpes thank you very much.
14:15 asciilifeform well the thing that presumably drew ben_vulpes to using 'binary-types' is the notion that 'describe the type and never have to manually craft readers/writers'
14:15 asciilifeform which unfortunately isn't the case for variable-length types in it
14:16 asciilifeform and the 'correct' thing to do would be to extend it such that it would be.
14:16 ben_vulpes spot on
14:16 asciilifeform but whether this is worth the sweat, i cannot say.
14:16 ben_vulpes conveniently, the generic for read-binary accepts other keys, into which i can pass a length for reading
14:17 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: it is imho entirely worth the sweat
↖
14:17 ben_vulpes otherwise what, write parsing of entire structure by hand? and then reserialization?
14:17 ben_vulpes noty, i would like to constrain the attack surface to satoshis retardation.
14:18 phf well, step two after writing compact size reader/writer is to figure out how to make a general purpose "binary-type object of count `compact size`"
14:18 asciilifeform it isn't even about 'attack surfaces', but for getting maximally compact description. i.e. fits-in-head.
14:19 ben_vulpes phf: is that particular 'compact size' anything like other hand-rolled variable length integers in c-land?
14:20 ben_vulpes once i have a stake in the varint it will go precisely nowhere.
14:21 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: the maximally compact description is 3-4 'binary classes', and some hairy braindamage around the varint and scripts.
14:21 phf ben_vulpes: well, what you're calling "varint" is called compact size in bitcoin source, and it's used exclusively as a size prefix for variable length lists <compact size><item 1><item 2><item 3>
14:21 ben_vulpes at least from where i'm sitting today.
14:21 ben_vulpes phf: yes? i...know.
14:22 phf oh, then i don't grok your question. "yes, it's exactly like any other hand-rolled variable length integer in c land"
14:23 ben_vulpes perhaps i misunderstand you, but once i have the type, sizeof, read-binary and write-binary implemented, then i'll have a "general purpose 'binary type object of count `compact size`'"
14:23 phf ooh, you don't write c, yes, it's a common pattern
14:23 phf hmm
14:24 ben_vulpes and the whole "if less than 253, that's the number, if equal then read the next octet, if blablabla" is that consistent across c-land?
14:24 ben_vulpes i only intended to write the compact size reader, not take it out of bitcoinland.
14:24 phf no, but it's a common pattern
14:24 ben_vulpes (and writer)
14:24 asciilifeform it's a very sad pattern though. promisetronic. in that you have a format ~in your head~ and then write 'reader' and 'writer' and there is no machine-assured isomorphism between the one and the other, and definitely not with the format.
14:24 ben_vulpes i don't even think you can have max compact size anything in trb.
14:25 ben_vulpes did some late night back-of-the envelope on script length and miminum transaction size and i don't recall it breaching u32
14:25 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: was general observation.
14:25 asciilifeform and think for 10 seconds
14:25 asciilifeform tx can't be any bigger than block.
14:26 asciilifeform but idiot author wanted 'generality', so we now have this.
14:26 ben_vulpes i have thought about this for at least ten seconds.
14:26 phf ben_vulpes: i still think there's some misunderstanding. once you have a compact size reader, you don't automatically get "read N objects of compact size count"
14:26 ben_vulpes generally try to keep the snr-damaging wailing and gnashing to my self.
14:27 ben_vulpes phf, yes, that's why i pass a 'byte-count' keyword argument to the read-binary method for script bytes
14:28 ben_vulpes eg http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/q8qud/?raw=true
14:28 phf the entire thing you posted is and only is compact size.
14:28 ben_vulpes well yeah we were only talking about compact size!
14:29 ben_vulpes standby 2
14:30 ben_vulpes (there's a fair amount of garbage in the thing i didn't feel like cluttering the discusison with)
14:30 phf ben_vulpes: ok, so that second paste is i guess not "general purpose", you'll have to write a reader/writer for every structure that has compact size'd parts in it
14:31 ben_vulpes http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/d6kbl/?raw=true << i have to run for a bit
14:32 ben_vulpes but yeah, anything that has compact size parts needs custom readers and writers.
14:32 phf so you're either stuck with that, or you figure out how to make it general purpose :>
14:33 ben_vulpes something like that
14:33 * ben_vulpes really off now
14:33 phf kk
14:34 phf it's a worthwhile attempt anyway, because implementing binary types from scratch with necessary parts to support bitcoin is not that hard. mine is 129 lines
14:35 phf err, it's worthwhile attempt because binary types core is small and easy to understand, and likewise easy to write own
14:35 asciilifeform phf: is yours posted somewhere ?
14:36 phf i lisp pasted it a year ago, but i'll dig it up if you're interested. it's hairy though
14:36 asciilifeform would be interesting to read side by side with ben_vulpes's
14:36 phf gives you defs like
14:36 phf (define-proto-structure tx ()
14:36 phf (4 version uint32_t 1)
14:36 phf (nil txin (compactSize-uint txin))
14:36 phf (nil txout (compactSize-uint txout))
14:36 phf (4 lock-time uint32_t))
14:36 phf (define-proto-structure txin ()
14:36 phf (36 previous-output outpoint)
14:37 phf (nil signature-script (compactSize-uint char))
14:37 phf (4 sequence uint32_t))
14:37 phf
14:37 asciilifeform l0l! was this auto-generated from something ?
14:38 phf i'm trying to remember what i used as reference
14:38 phf i think it aws en.bitcoin.it
14:38 * asciilifeform mutters 'what if i'm on a box with 7-trit trytes'...
14:38 phf *was
14:39 asciilifeform !#s tritcoin
14:39 a111 1 result for "tritcoin", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=tritcoin
14:40 asciilifeform hah.
14:40 phf it doesn't matter, because on your box with 7-trit trytes you make your reader/writer infrastructure read it correctly
14:40 asciilifeform well yes but the '4' !11111
14:40 asciilifeform at any rate.
14:43 phf well, you write your heathen-octet-stream wrapper around your default sb-internal::binary-trit-tryte-input, so that read-byte on a stream gives you the right things
14:43 asciilifeform !~later tell mircea_popescu your new page's section IV oughta link to trb
14:43 jhvh1 asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
14:43 phf i agree though, the numbers are unnecessary, i'll have to borrow the whole sizeof concept :>
14:44 asciilifeform phf: interestingly, the ada folks got this right.
14:44 asciilifeform http://sworthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/03/ada-vs-c-bit-fields.html << see also.
14:46 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> "dad i wanna get married" "honeybunch, you'll get old and your tits will sag and it'll suck. don't get married, it's a dead end" << LOL
14:50 phf asciilifeform: ha, still doesn't account for 7-trit machines!
14:50 asciilifeform phf: not directly, no.
14:54 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#461 << technically you don't know it will be orphaned ever, because "being orphan" is not a quality of a block/chain. if tomorrow we decide to extend an "orphan" from 2014 and in the process strand extant bitcoin, we ~can~.
14:54 scriba Logged on 2016-09-19: [17:53:56] <asciilifeform> (you don't know that it will be orphaned until later)
14:54 asciilifeform well yes.
14:54 mircea_popescu asciilifeform it does link ? http://thebitcoin.foundation/trb-howto.html
14:54 asciilifeform aha!
14:55 asciilifeform i must've missed.
14:55 mircea_popescu in a sense getting rid of historical "orphans" is very much community-trying-to-insure against the nature of the blockchain.
14:56 mircea_popescu doesn't work, of course, but then again lemmings aren't looking for solutions ; merely for the appearance thereof.
14:57 asciilifeform my original point was that the 'linear' blockchain is very much an after-the-fact flattening
14:57 asciilifeform rather than the form in which it is representable in real time.
14:58 mircea_popescu much like a "press", it's a personal take on the lightcone as-it-is.
14:59 asciilifeform aha.
14:59 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#501 << fucking utf everywhere.
14:59 scriba Logged on 2016-09-19: [18:13:11] <phf> the type is called compact size (in bitcoin src parlance), it is simply an number. the reader reads a byte, decides what to do, ultimately returns ~the number~
15:00 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#507 << iirc what drew him was that you told him to.
15:00 scriba Logged on 2016-09-19: [18:15:46] <asciilifeform> well the thing that presumably drew ben_vulpes to using 'binary-types' is the notion that 'describe the type and never have to manually craft readers/writers'
15:00 asciilifeform it was and remains the best starting point for sanity.
15:00 asciilifeform afaik.
15:02 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: imho section ix ought to link to ben_vulpes's mega-article on subj
15:02 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#528 << first time i ever heard of it. also fucking stupid, 253 = 11111101 lord have mercy.
15:02 scriba Logged on 2016-09-19: [18:24:07] <ben_vulpes> and the whole "if less than 253, that's the number, if equal then read the next octet, if blablabla" is that consistent across c-land?
15:02 asciilifeform it was closest thing there was to a 'textbook of v'
15:02 mircea_popescu link ?
15:03 asciilifeform http://cascadianhacker.com/07_v-tronics-101-a-gentle-introduction-to-the-most-serene-republic-of-bitcoins-cryptographically-backed-version-control-system
15:04 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#534 << not since we drove stake through hearn-gavin shambler heart. but "in the future" of retardation, i'm sure there will be.
15:04 scriba Logged on 2016-09-19: [18:25:12] <ben_vulpes> did some late night back-of-the envelope on script length and miminum transaction size and i don't recall it breaching u32
15:04 mircea_popescu oh yeah! adding.
15:05 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: the formatting of ^ suffered greatly from the wordpressification.
15:06 asciilifeform https://archive.is/1zGfH << the imho more readable original. for now.
15:07 phf from the "wat" department https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1799205/sex-change-soldier-is-britains-first-female-to-fight-on-front-line-after-being-born-a-boy/
15:07 asciilifeform rule brittania.
15:07 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#537 << if only. re http://trilema.com/2013/bitcoind-not-quite-ready-for-prime-time/#selection-77.298-77.423 etc.
15:07 scriba Logged on 2016-09-19: [18:25:45] <asciilifeform> tx can't be any bigger than block.
15:08 mircea_popescu which of course reminds one of http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/in-re-bitcoin-devs-are-idiots.htm and so on.
15:08 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the failure to generate 1MB tx is promisetronic, not protocolic, though.
15:09 asciilifeform you could - in principle - fix.
15:09 mircea_popescu not really ; miners' junk is broken.
15:09 asciilifeform well that there's ye olde 'high S' problem, aha
15:09 mircea_popescu mostly because grown mushroom style.
15:09 asciilifeform convince somebody to mine.
15:09 asciilifeform and to call it mushroom is insult to mushrooms; it is fungus on public toilet.
15:11 mircea_popescu also true.
15:13 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: rather sad, innit
15:14 ben_vulpes the formatopalypse
15:14 ben_vulpes at least i have blog-unique footnote refs now
15:14 ben_vulpes and comments!
15:14 ben_vulpes i received a /spam/ comment.
15:14 ben_vulpes my first!
15:15 mircea_popescu wd!
15:15 thestringpuller i'm so proud of you ben_vulpes. i knew you could do it!
15:15 thestringpuller I always believed in you!
15:15 ben_vulpes menial wwwtronix are just a matter of time
15:19 ben_vulpes in other satoshisms, i found a bottle of contact lens solution that turned out to have high vitamin e oil for topical use in it
15:19 ben_vulpes found, last night. discovered its contents, this morning.
15:19 * ben_vulpes will ooze hydrocarbons from the eyes for days, probably
15:20 asciilifeform pull the hose off the shop wall, wash ?
15:20 ben_vulpes not a bad idea
15:20 ben_vulpes contacts are definitely toast.
~ 32 minutes ~
15:53 shinohai For Flint, MI lulz: http://archive.is/jb2MI
15:56 asciilifeform http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/in-re-bitcoin-devs-are-idiots.htm << is pretty golden reread.
15:56 asciilifeform 'Do you grasp this? Bitcoin will never exist as a toy for five idiots. You will never get to matter inasmuch as what you want to do is have this little black box the world reveres that only you are allowed to peer inside. This is not how the world works, currently (and past about 1800 or so). This is not how the world should work, either. Specifying the code does not "result in fiascoes like this one". Your idiotic codebase results i
15:56 asciilifeform n in fiascoes like this one. Specification is the way out of it, and most importantly specification is the way out of having you idiots create fiascoes like this one randomly, one at a time, for the unforeseeable future. ' -- mpoepr
15:58 asciilifeform 'If the miners had half a clue they'd have told Idiot Co-op exactly where to stuff it, and here's the beauty of it: with the arrival of ASICs and their significant capital cost, the odds that the sort of feelgood ninnies currently involved in mining will still be around are nil. ' << if only this had been !
16:05 asciilifeform 'What there's need for is people to sit down with a cup of coffee and a (preferably printed) copy of the code and just read it through. This can be done in bits as long as the bits aren't arbitrarily segmented (it's ok to summarize a procedure, it's not ok to summarize between lines 520 and 545). Once we have a few of these completed we're already very far down the road.' << mpoepr
16:06 asciilifeform lel, i never even read this before.
16:06 * asciilifeform did not frequent tardstalk when it was alive, never had acct there
16:11 shinohai You're not missing much.
16:16 ben_vulpes http://cascadianhacker.com/21_a-tour-of-bitcoind-booting-to-its-first-thread << i should do another of these!
16:16 ben_vulpes (another horribly formatted import from the old site, complete with broken images)
16:20 BingoBoingo <shinohai> You're not missing much. << At one point a person would have missed many lolz by skipping out
16:23 shinohai I know but there aren't even lolz any more, nary an ingenious scam to be found.
16:24 shinohai I think the whole place is inhabited now by human shannonizers that make mindless posts for 50 cents in satoshi a day.
~ 27 minutes ~
16:52 deedbot http://qntra.net/2016/09/nj-hamplanet-chris-christies-own-lawyer-calls-him-a-liar/ << Qntra - NJ Hamplanet Chris Christie's Own Lawyer Calls Him A Liar
~ 21 minutes ~
17:13 mircea_popescu Birdman well apparently your 3d drivers are shot ?
17:13 mircea_popescu <mircea_popescu> http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#652 << remarkable how ahead of her time she was.
17:13 scriba Logged on 2016-09-19: [19:56:13] <asciilifeform> http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/in-re-bitcoin-devs-are-idiots.htm << is pretty golden reread.
17:14 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160919/#655 << she was spot-on, actually. i don't think anyone who wasn't here can even grok what sort of copumpkin-esque imbeciles counted for miners back then. it's cleared immensely.
17:14 scriba Logged on 2016-09-19: [19:58:22] <asciilifeform> 'If the miners had half a clue they'd have told Idiot Co-op exactly where to stuff it, and here's the beauty of it: with the arrival of ASICs and their significant capital cost, the odds that the sort of feelgood ninnies currently involved in mining will still be around are nil. ' << if only this had been !
17:17 mircea_popescu and in other "we forgot how to do it" news, http://66.media.tumblr.com/9bb75d2478bb05786cfff6a5ba46278f/tumblr_mm8fu3y9ky1rmxgp0o1_1280.jpg
~ 18 minutes ~
17:35 deedbot http://qntra.net/2016/09/google-and-apple-break-compatibility-with-new-developer-product-releases/ << Qntra - Google And Apple Break Compatibility With New Developer Product Releases
~ 16 minutes ~
17:52 shinohai !~later tell BingoBoingo http://ix.io/1ovm
17:52 jhvh1 shinohai: The operation succeeded.
17:52 BingoBoingo In classic trilema http://trilema.com/
17:52 BingoBoingo * http://trilema.com/2013/wallmart-or-the-mall-a-debate/
17:56 deedbot http://qntra.net/2016/09/cash-seized-by-nypd-uncounted-and-untracked/ << Qntra - Cash Seized By NYPD Uncounted And Untracked
17:58 shinohai Maybe an increase in civil-asset forfeiture block sizes would help.
18:00 shinohai Sorry BingoBoingo I left out "would be required" after the " invoices each year.” quote
18:01 BingoBoingo ty fxd
18:01 shinohai !~ty
18:01 jhvh1 You are very welcome Daddy
~ 33 minutes ~
18:35 ben_vulpes today, i am electing to not implement a logout button.
18:35 ben_vulpes why would you ever want to log users out?
18:35 ben_vulpes that just makes it harder to get their money later.
18:35 ben_vulpes psh.
18:35 asciilifeform next abolish 'log in'
18:36 ben_vulpes now that you mention it, 'log in' entails a link in yr email.
18:36 ben_vulpes yeah actually now that you mention it, i'm abolishing users altogether.
18:37 asciilifeform system without lusers, aha, like soup without flies!111111 (tm) (r) (BOFH)
18:38 ben_vulpes more users, more problems.
~ 17 minutes ~
18:56 deedbot http://qntra.net/2016/09/nigerian-students-scammed-by-alabama-state-university/ << Qntra - Nigerian Students Scammed By Alabama State University
18:59 ben_vulpes i haven't seen gribble quit in some time.
19:02 mircea_popescu and in further hatespeech, http://65.media.tumblr.com/4be4d9998c39d363099cc70e5b73b674/tumblr_nlrycyiKM21sgp77yo1_1280.jpg
19:04 mircea_popescu lol the last two qntras, epic stuff.
19:07 shinohai !~later tell BingoBoingo http://ix.io/1owq
19:07 jhvh1 shinohai: The operation succeeded.
19:08 shinohai I didn't archive the source on that one because it has stupid javascript or something that obscued the article, making it pointless.
19:12 BingoBoingo ty mircea_popescu
19:14 BingoBoingo shinohai: ALready covered in "Roundup Xtend 6"
19:15 shinohai oh i missed that one, my bad
19:16 BingoBoingo it happens
19:17 shinohai I see the ceasefire has collapsed in Syria, meaning Assad saw shadow and there will be 10 more years of civil war.
19:18 BingoBoingo !~b 3
19:18 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Error: "b" is not a valid command.
19:27 BingoBoingo Moar classic Trilema for today http://trilema.com/2014/the-bezzle-usd-and-the-tide-usd/
~ 1 hours 18 minutes ~
20:45 shinohai http://archive.is/vx6VZ "Where do you live? Could be your immigration searched the package." "US - I would feel better if that was the case!"
20:46 asciilifeform shinohai: lel, wasn't this last year's thread ..?
20:46 shinohai Yeah I recall a thread on this.
~ 45 minutes ~
21:31 mircea_popescu meanwhile in iran, http://66.media.tumblr.com/43adadce09ded605540069355c90dbf7/tumblr_ngyxljZlpO1s150rho1_500.gif
21:34 * shinohai would certainly like to improve US-Iranian relations with photo subject
~ 43 minutes ~
22:17 deedbot http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1667 << Loper OS - A Complete Pill for the Sage SmartProbe.
22:21 asciilifeform ^ 3133333333333333337 w4r3z available nowhere else in solar system!1111111
~ 1 hours 31 minutes ~
23:52 BingoBoingo Newsing up this exciting Republican victory!
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