Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2022-09-05 | 2022-09-07 → ↓
10:13 shinohai https://github.com/jeremyckahn/chitchatter << Move over pest, they have a WEB APP.
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~ 1 hours 7 minutes ~
11:21 awt if you can you must
11:31 phf signpost, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bhq08BQLDs in the alternative, better timeline this is how we visualize WoT
11:37 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-09-06#1012213 << there are some things to keep note of for future battlepest, e.g. they claim to use bittorrent servers, firebase, and ipfs for peer discovery, which imho is pretty clever
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11:37 bitbot Logged on 2022-09-06 10:13:43 shinohai: https://github.com/jeremyckahn/chitchatter << Move over pest, they have a WEB APP.
11:39 phf also audio/video chatrooms, and binary w/ metadata
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11:45 phf awt, so i'm getting 5 broadcast messges every ~7s, does that mean that you have 5 peers in your peer database, that are not currently online, so your system is trying to find them? is that what the logic of the system?
11:47 phf *address cast
11:49 phf awt, so for example if there's a complete pest net of n stations, everyone's online, then 1 station drops out, now the network in aggregate starts transmitting n-1 address cast messages, because everyone is looking for that 1 offline station? 2 station, n-2, etc.
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11:49 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-09-06#1012216 << clever, but to asciilifeform not clear why needed when you can use any live peer for 'discovery' (i.e. that selfsame addrcast/nat drill thing)
11:49 bitbot Logged on 2022-09-06 11:37:13 phf[awt]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-09-06#1012213 << there are some things to keep note of for future battlepest, e.g. they claim to use bittorrent servers, firebase, and ipfs for peer discovery, which imho is pretty clever
11:50 awt phf: interesting. my log shows them going out every ~60s.
11:51 phf awt, disregard, i'm stupid and can't read digital clock
11:51 phf you're right, every ~60s, but the other question remains
11:51 awt phf: Also, yes, that is the logic. Maybe exponential backoff would be better.
11:54 phf asciilifeform, true, but also all advertised station ips have been knocked offline by an adversarial ddos, etc.
11:57 asciilifeform phf: the pill is to have sufficient # of peers that is impractical to knock out all (even if somehow opponent knows ~all~ of'em -- a situation that , come to think of it, is only likely to occur precisely if one 'cheats' and uses external toilets for advertising addrs, ipfs etc)
11:58 phf there you trying to bring up pest station from a trench over shortwave, the joint NATO/WEF strike force is on your back, you need to send last message to the comrades, the message that will is a culmination of your succesful but final mission. that's when you piggy back off disney/pfizer™© safe citizen id©™ system to
11:58 phf do your initial discovery…
11:59 asciilifeform generally folx who aint peers w/ a station have no biz knowing its ip at all
12:00 asciilifeform phf: lol
12:03 asciilifeform re ddos generally, pest entirely happpy to ride on arbitrarily large block of ips, or bank of gsm modems, wardrive, etc., by design
~ 1 hours 37 minutes ~
13:40 asciilifeform apropos -- in all srsness, the carrier-agnosticism of pest does mean that you ~could~ upload black packets to lolcatbin or whatnot, if for some odd reason wanted to
13:40 asciilifeform (similarly to the hypothetical shortwave carrier)
13:43 asciilifeform ... hell, could sneakernet/hand-carry'em (may want longer timeout, lol, then)
13:48 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-09-06#1012218 << there's no particular reason one couldn't telephonize via pest (if you've a beefy cpu); simply not an item asciilifeform gave much thought to
13:48 bitbot Logged on 2022-09-06 11:39:21 phf[awt]: also audio/video chatrooms, and binary w/ metadata
13:49 * asciilifeform pictures if had been written in '16, say, and then mp: 'this is useless unless camwhores!' etc
13:51 asciilifeform ... simply have a variant of 'direct msg' that carries chunk of compressed voice etc.
13:54 phf pest fuckgoats pcie encoder/decoder board when
13:54 asciilifeform likely you'd want signpost's luby encoder
13:54 asciilifeform phf: lol
13:55 * asciilifeform not expects to live to see 'oh hey i maxxed out my 64cpu opteron pest station, canhaz iron coprocessor plz'
13:57 asciilifeform afaik the only pestism that (even hypothetically) would 100% need dedicated irons, so far, is shortwaveism
13:58 * asciilifeform in fact intended to try, but after BingoBoingo desaparecido, no longer has with-whom to sw with , at any interesting distance
13:58 asciilifeform !q seen-anywhere BingoBoingo
13:58 dulapbot BingoBoingo last seen in #asciilifeform on 2022-02-28 12:49:43: In the past month US down ~19% versus Brasil's Real, 5.3% versus Peso Uruguay
14:00 asciilifeform 'what good is phone call, mr. andersen, if you have no mouth!'(tm)(r)(c)
14:12 awt Anyone got a link to his youtube channel handy?
~ 38 minutes ~
14:50 signpost awt: https://aaronrogier.net/blog/2022/blogruptcy/ << sounds like he's gonna continue here?
14:53 signpost awt: linked from here
15:07 signpost $ticker btc usd
15:07 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $18987.06
~ 17 minutes ~
15:24 billymg good to see some signs of life from BingoBoingo
15:25 phf neat
15:39 asciilifeform lol if that's actually him, shame! for not paying bill! w/out even the excuse of watery grave, lol
15:41 asciilifeform there'd better be a good story involving prisons, mental asylums, narrow escapes!11
15:51 awt ty signpost
~ 47 minutes ~
16:39 signpost asciilifeform: dipping on a bill among (former?) l1's pretty unimpressive.
16:44 phf back in the day of violent deplatformings in tmsr i thought that maybe some of the grievances are a result of weakness of wot
16:45 phf like e.g. if bb didn't pay his bill, that doesn't necessarily need to translate into a condemnation and illegitimacy, but it should simply have a direct effect on wot raiting (or not, depending on individual). i might not care that bb didn't pay his bill, but ascii does, so take a point from rating or whatever and move on
16:52 phf which brings the question of pest based wot back up, ‘RATE BingoBoingo -1 didn't pay his bill’ or similar, where +n/-n is relative to previous rating, n is explicit rating overrides previous ratings and comments
16:54 phf but also asciilifeform being explicitly against in-bandisms, should something like this have it's own command? would be useful if it still showed up as a message, but was otherwise annotated at packet level. does it make sense to make explicit "rating command", or should it be some kind of "op command" that lets one send c
16:54 phf ommands in some kind of ll little language "rate x n comm" "unrate" "bid" "ask" etc
17:06 * signpost grows quite fond of this notion of a chain of structured social pronouncements.
17:08 signpost "required for dynamics of pest protocol itself" may be one way of dividing what becomes a message type.
17:10 signpost wot may very well fit that definition at some point, perhaps involved in message propagation. say I issue a request for a given hash in the context of a filesharing system.
17:11 signpost I may at some times only want to consider offers to transfer the file from immediate peers, other times from l2, etc
17:13 signpost "I don't care how much noise I get back; I need this file and am willing to eat a lot of failed hashes to find it" vs "I'm deploying a server that belongs to me with an OS image and I'm willing to speed things up by using ally boxes"
17:14 phf but also "rate ben and jerries seattle, wa -1 too urban" etc :>
17:16 phf there's also that point about not being able to tie ratings to individuals, maybe there should be a restriction on the travel of these things? if i rate something, it can be an equivalent of direct message, or it propagates in a broadcast. different implications of both
17:21 asciilifeform phf: maybe not clear from asciilifeform's gripe, but not so much problem of 'grrr, bastard, not paid!' but that he's got a colo that asciilifeform has nfi wat-do with ( i.e. asciilifeform's fault, did not specify in pact 'if you dunpay for 6mo it gets sunk in ocean' )
17:24 asciilifeform from asciilifeform's pov, 1 of the serious wins from wot-only biz is that it can be run informally, like tabs in old saloons, without having to consider the possibility of ending up used for interest-free (and never paid) loans by randos
17:26 asciilifeform this 'only worx while it worx' obv
17:27 asciilifeform so concretely, asciilifeform not pissed 'b/c not paid!', but rather mystified that fella couldn't even be arsed to send a 'throw it in ocean plz kthx' pgpgram
17:29 phf the win of old saloon is that lol where you going to go friend, your ranch and wife are here. i've made this point before, about fundamental failure of tmsr, but there was never closed economy. bb's business doesn't run on asciilifeform's iron, so his disappearance doesn't signify "probably had a heart attack on the way ho
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17:29 phf me", but simply "stopped visiting this particular reddit"
17:30 asciilifeform phf: this is imho fundamentally inescapable, for sets of folx who aint actually sitting together in same mars dome
17:31 asciilifeform tmsr had a reasonably good 'sim' going, of 'mars dome', but as these go unsurprisingly imploded in the usual way
17:33 asciilifeform this is why the folx ~seriously~ interested in 'closed economies' tend to build jonestowns, rather than fucking around with electronics
17:34 phf asciilifeform, that's the case i think where i agree with your grievances, mp could've tried it, instead of the whole faux lordship structure, attempted a retainer format, where one could, through work and collaboration come up from ranks
17:35 phf but started with actually paying people to do work, lol
17:35 asciilifeform mp at least explicitly admitted, 'i dun want the work of herding moos'
17:35 phf rather pay for camwhore girls than programmer boys, etc.
17:36 asciilifeform fwiw asciilifeform's hypothesis remains 'd00d wasn't actually rich enuff -- considering the market depth of btc -- to build a rhodesia'
17:37 asciilifeform so artfully danced around the issue with 'dun want'
17:38 asciilifeform there's a lengthy history allaround of folx pretending that the things they can't afford to do (e.g. build sane iron on which sane os is possible, to take unrelated example) 'don't need doing after all'
17:39 asciilifeform (recall laddel's 'masamune' episode)
17:39 asciilifeform mp's intergalactic empire was a type of masamune.
17:40 signpost not sure it was that, or hell, correctly noticing when mandate of heaven passed.
17:40 signpost in either case there's use in a protocol where folks can talk about each other and announce shit they have to sell.
17:41 asciilifeform signpost: the difficulty, unsurprisingly, ultimately is ~never in 'how do we talk' but 'what's there to sell'
17:41 asciilifeform if nobody 'sows or reaps', then wat-sell.
17:41 phf asciilifeform, i can see that, i mean, it was kind of obvious with the harem, that "harem" was always hanbot, until it was also bimbo
17:42 asciilifeform well + the occasional guest
17:42 signpost asciilifeform: "what use is a baby"
17:42 signpost all I'm saying.
17:43 * asciilifeform nods
17:43 signpost tmsr wanted to be the superstructure between sovereigns and no node present was.
17:44 * asciilifeform was never fully onboard with 'btc is irresistible to sovereigns' notion, considering the latter's undying fondness for printing themselves palaces via debasement
17:45 signpost and also
17:45 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-01-26 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes you don't want a strong currency while industrializing.
17:47 * signpost would be happy at this stage of life to disintermediate "I have unpasteurized dairy products for sale".
17:47 asciilifeform ^ for instance
17:48 phf saw this recently: “behind every homesteading wife is an IT husband making six figures” :p
17:48 asciilifeform lol!
17:48 asciilifeform prolly phact
17:49 signpost huehue, but wife-net is not to be underestimated!
17:49 signpost equip the babes, instinctive cult-propagators that they are
17:50 crtdaydreams $ticker btc usd
17:50 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $18973.21
17:50 asciilifeform signpost: the 'where seekrit milk for btc?' thing is example of larger unsolved mega-boojum, where folx who actually sow/reap/milk cows are (justifiably!) suspicious of complicated electronics and won't touch (unintermediated) btc with barge pole
17:52 asciilifeform ... so yer moar or less stuck with programmers selling ??? to ea.other
17:52 asciilifeform (+ a population of chumps who think they 'use bitcoin' because they made a gox acct)
17:54 * asciilifeform suspects that if e.g. rifle required a <=100nm ic die, with GB+ of ???, farmers etc would arm selves with crossbows and call it a day
17:56 asciilifeform 'decentralized protocol' has limited 'teeth' if can only run on ultra-centralizing substrate, is the sad thing.
17:56 bitbot (trilema) 2019-04-17 asciilifeform: it's the most massively centralized industry that exists. there are actually moar independent satellite launchers than e.g. <= 70nm fabs.
17:56 signpost perhaps all the ways are closed. dying next to an art project isn't so bad.
17:56 phf farmers still buy latest gb+ of ??? ford truck
17:57 phf but i'm mostly sniping, don't otherwise have a point
17:57 asciilifeform phf: for that matter there aint all that many places where can make e.g. 308 shell to spec. (considerably harder than to make what to load it into)
17:57 signpost life is also remarkably easy yet.
17:57 asciilifeform somehow not bothers people
17:58 phf it's a shame that a particular cut of job of the glorious leader left some otherwise important problems outside of scope. "the amish can talk to me on this here #trilema channel"
17:58 phf *cut of jib
17:58 asciilifeform lol
17:59 asciilifeform phf: iirc when pressed, turned episodically into 'they can talk to my vast network of spy-emissaries'
17:59 signpost as I let that one continue to digest, eh, the prophet yields to no one.
17:59 signpost later the zealots compromise the thing until it's actionable.
17:59 asciilifeform 'let mountain come to muhammed'(tm)(r)(c)
18:00 phf my hotel is as clean as elven arse(tm)(c)
18:01 phf signpost, damn, what a missed opportunity of "risen from the sea!"
18:02 asciilifeform ha
18:02 signpost lol
18:03 phf thrice foam-reborn, primordial foam, foam of the confusion of the peoples, and finally the sea foam
18:03 asciilifeform oblig!
18:04 phf hehe, i knew which one it was before even clicking
18:06 asciilifeform what other, lol
18:08 crtdaydreams http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-09-05#1012201 << neat link. atm currently have all major ingredients of biodiesel; methanol, sodium hydroxide lye, veggie oil. look forward to a writeup when I get around to actually ~doing~ it
18:08 bitbot Logged on 2022-09-05 20:13:28 billymg: re: diesel, was checking these guys out recently: https://www.springboardbiodiesel.com/
18:09 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: thought it was obv., but is only remotely +ev if other people give you the 'bio'
18:09 asciilifeform for ~phree
18:09 billymg nice, crtdaydreams
18:09 * billymg would definitely read
18:09 crtdaydreams asciilifeform ofc, but would like to get the chemistry down pat before dumps vat of dirty oil into tank
18:11 crtdaydreams sure can preheat and strain, but over time quickly will clog injectors
18:11 crtdaydreams not going to brick ute
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18:12 asciilifeform folx truly serious about oddball 'mad max' fuels oughta look into 'external combustion engine' imho (i.e. steam cycle)
18:12 asciilifeform 0 injectors to clog
18:13 crtdaydreams asciilifeform: am fully aware, but then wai not just gassifier?
18:13 billymg crtdaydreams: according to linked site the fuel their machine produces can go into unmodified diesel engines, and be mixed at any ratio with pump-bought diesel
18:13 crtdaydreams far less waste energy with gassification
18:13 asciilifeform crtdaydreams: in finland until '70s was not uncommon to see 'gasenwagen' with potbelly stove welded to back
18:13 asciilifeform has the obv minus
18:14 phf apropos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyTqo4mCUUY
18:15 crtdaydreams asciilifeform: yup, in europistan had them all throughout WW2 when fuel supply became scarcity
18:16 asciilifeform steam -- simpler, mechanically, and -- with sumthing resembling modern machining -- with turbine, ~similarly efficient to the carburetted 'ice'
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18:16 * crtdaydreams gtg bbl
18:18 asciilifeform ( the traditional and incurable minus of steam aint 'inefficient' but 'slow to revv', 'how will you blitzkrieg on a steam zundapp!', which theoretically curable with 'electro hybrid' setup..)
~ 2 hours 30 minutes ~
20:48 jonsykkel wat about storeing the steam in a baloon tied to top of the car, then opening valve into turbine when u need juice
20:52 asciilifeform jonsykkel: who didn't make this in childhood, lol
20:53 jonsykkel time to make the childhood dream real
20:53 asciilifeform ( laff, but occasional crackpot actually proposes 'compressed air car' in earnest. 'folx who can't do arithmetic are doomed to talk nonsense'(tm)(r)(jmc) )
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20:56 jonsykkel ye i guess the baloons wouldnt fit trhough tunnels etc
21:03 asciilifeform lol not why but anyway.
21:05 jonsykkel im joking, but jokes aside, u would have the steam engine + tank to solve the slow to revv problem. why wouldnt that work
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21:07 jonsykkel when tank low u crank up heat
21:11 phf asciilifeform https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMzhhMTk0YTAtYjA2OS00M2M1LTlhNGEtMmI5YzRlMTE1ZmE1XkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyNjY0Njk3ODk@._V1_.jpg
~ 22 minutes ~
21:33 phf i always assumed those things were wood powered
~ 1 hours 44 minutes ~
23:17 asciilifeform луц-powered, recall, explicitly told in story
23:18 asciilifeform ('from seawater')
23:19 asciilifeform ( for n00bs, 'least sexy' but phunctional starship from cult su film 'kin-dza-dza' )
23:19 * asciilifeform wonders whether anyone made properly synced eng subs for subj
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