02:32 |
trinque |
http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-26#1007554 << remember that it's an artifact, not a textbook. it's liable to teach you the wrong thing, possibly better off not touching it for now. |
02:32 |
ossabot |
Logged on 2019-10-26 16:27:04 jfw: Seeing the cuntoo bootstrap tarball is back from the pizmess, I'll download for future study. |
| |
~ 4 hours 36 minutes ~ |
07:09 |
diana_coman |
http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-26#1007629 - misclassification indeed. |
07:09 |
ossabot |
Logged on 2019-10-26 18:35:12 lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-21#1007023 << Just realized I missed this question. Well, in our PM convo at the end of September I decided to pause my current study in diana_coman's school so as to gain an understanding of what, specifically, I would wish to gain from it. In my head I had lumped the penance posts under this set of study, though perhaps this was a misclassification |
07:09 |
ericbot |
Logged on 2019-10-21 13:57:58 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-14#1002548 - lobbes, what ever happened to/with this? |
07:09 |
ossabot |
Logged on 2019-09-14 15:05:59 lobbes: diana_coman: interesting. I will do this, ty |
07:12 |
diana_coman |
http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-26#1007633 - is this the sort of fun that keeps you going or the sort that means you'll need a few days *after it* to be able to do anything useful again? |
07:12 |
ossabot |
Logged on 2019-10-26 18:47:29 whaack: diana_coman: I was just invited to go to Nicaragua next week from Thursday-Monday for a friend's birthday. (The same friend I was considering living with before) It looks like a++ fun, but it is quite a few days to give up. I am asking both for permission to go and guidance as to whether or not I should go. |
07:15 |
diana_coman |
http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-26#1007641 - thank you trinque for stating this clearly for jfw ; he certainly has other things to do atm. |
07:15 |
ossabot |
Logged on 2019-10-26 23:36:56 trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-26#1007554 << remember that it's an artifact, not a textbook. it's liable to teach you the wrong thing, possibly better off not touching it for now. |
| |
~ 6 hours 42 minutes ~ |
13:58 |
whaack |
diana_coman: i admit i would need to take care to ensure it is the former and not the later |
| |
~ 34 minutes ~ |
14:32 |
diana_coman |
whaack: honestly, it sounds like you'd be way better off *without* that, esp since you aren't really lacking holidays otherwise; maybe meet the guys sometime in CR before/after that trip rather than sink those days in it. |
14:37 |
whaack |
diana_coman: alright i will not lack in seeing them, i see them multiple times a week in the surf. |
14:39 |
diana_coman |
whaack: cool then; and btw, didn't you promise some photos/post of that wonderful view from your place? |
14:40 |
whaack |
yes by EOD tomorrow latest! |
14:40 |
diana_coman |
heh, all right. |
14:41 |
whaack |
i'm going to go on a walk and grab some more photos, brb 30min |
14:41 |
diana_coman |
enjoy! |
| |
~ 33 minutes ~ |
15:15 |
diana_coman |
thimbronion: are you back from Hawaii? |
| |
~ 41 minutes ~ |
15:57 |
thimbronion |
diana_coman: I am back and will be available in roughly 2 hours. |
16:00 |
thimbronion |
diana_coman: I also intend to write my plan and review at that time, although I could use some direction as to what to discuss in them. |
16:01 |
diana_coman |
thimbronion: make that more like 4 hours or write it down and I'll read it around that time. |
16:01 |
diana_coman |
thimbronion: see that comment I left on your blog and maybe answer that there first. |
| |
~ 1 hours 36 minutes ~ |
17:37 |
thimbronion |
diana_coman: ack |
| |
~ 1 hours 34 minutes ~ |
19:12 |
thimbronion |
diana_coman: http://thimbron.com/2019/10/hawaii-communication/#comment-37 << answered and enlarged images |
19:26 |
diana_coman |
thimbronion: ugh; listen: 1. use feedbot and subscribe to your own blog's comments at least so you actually see them more timely + you'll figure out why there's no need to ping 2. pics on blog have a medium size that fits your theme + linked to bigger size (IF that exists, you don't just enlarge a low res image ffs) ; mpwp even does that for you, dunno how you managed to mess it up there so badly. |
19:27 |
diana_coman |
and you know, stop doing just the shape of things, there's a point to them and if you don't get the point, just doing the motions won't help any. |
19:29 |
diana_coman |
thimbronion: this even strikes me as quite similar to your communication issue, it's almost as if you somehow interact/see the world quite flat/missing some dimensions entirely |
19:32 |
diana_coman |
whaack: did you re-read those annotations of yours? |
19:32 |
thimbronion |
diana_coman: I discovered in Hawaii that image uploading is not working. I added img tags linked to images uploaded to another server. |
19:33 |
diana_coman |
thimbronion: just fix it, will you? |
19:33 |
thimbronion |
diana_coman: yes, I will. |
19:35 |
thimbronion |
diana_coman: ok I will use feedbot. |
19:36 |
diana_coman |
thimbronion: good; still: why use feedbot? |
19:39 |
thimbronion |
diana_coman: because it will notify me in irc so I don't have to check my rss reader. |
19:39 |
diana_coman |
thimbronion: so what? |
19:40 |
thimbronion |
diana_coman: That said I saw your comment immediately after you left it, but didn't have large enough time slot where I could focus enough to respond until now. |
19:40 |
thimbronion |
diana_coman: so that I can respond in a timely manner. |
19:41 |
diana_coman |
thimbronion: this then doesn't fit as it is; why? |
19:41 |
ossabot |
Logged on 2019-10-27 13:05:07 thimbronion: diana_coman: I also intend to write my plan and review at that time, although I could use some direction as to what to discuss in them. |
19:44 |
thimbronion |
diana_coman: I don't know why this doesn't fit. |
19:46 |
thimbronion |
diana_coman: I will have to step away in about 10 minutes. |
19:47 |
diana_coman |
thimbronion: so try to figure it out, like a puzzle if nothing else; take your time too but don't just remain stuck at "don't know"; it's part of your problem. |
19:48 |
thimbronion |
diana_coman: ok I will spend some time to try to figure it out. |
19:51 |
diana_coman |
thimbronion: understand that there is no possible way for me to direct you at such extremely basic level, it would be ~psychological equivalent of moving your limbs about like a puppet and for one thing I really don't think that's sane or helpful even if it were possible. |
19:54 |
thimbronion |
http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-27#1007679 << diana_coman: are you referring to "direction" from here? |
19:54 |
ossabot |
Logged on 2019-10-27 16:46:06 diana_coman: thimbronion: this then doesn't fit as it is; why? |
19:54 |
diana_coman |
thimbronion: hm? I don't get what you are asking |
19:55 |
thimbronion |
diana_coman: when you say "direct," are you referring to me asking for direction on what to address in my plan and review? |
19:57 |
diana_coman |
thimbronion: the "to direct" in http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-27#1007685 ? it's more general really; essentially when you get stuck and/or just go through the motion of a requested thing without (apparently) knowing what and why was the point requested. |
19:57 |
ossabot |
Logged on 2019-10-27 16:55:27 diana_coman: thimbronion: understand that there is no possible way for me to direct you at such extremely basic level, it would be ~psychological equivalent of moving your limbs about like a puppet and for one thing I really don't think that's sane or helpful even if it were possible. |
19:59 |
thimbronion |
diana_coman: ok. I will think about this some more. I have to step away now. |
19:59 |
diana_coman |
all right. |
20:00 |
asciilifeform |
diana_coman: 2nd draft posted. (feedbot appears to be wedged??) |
20:06 |
diana_coman |
asciilifeform: hm, it worked just a minute ago so possibly it just takes a bit of time? |
20:06 |
asciilifeform |
possib |
20:06 |
diana_coman |
it depends on whether your rss announces immediately or not too; at any rate, I'll read in a bit. |
20:07 |
asciilifeform |
ty diana_coman . read when you have time. |
20:12 |
whaack |
diana_coman: yes. i wrote them once, then corrected. then i waited ~5 hours and corrected them again. when i did my last proofread, i was quite dismayed at how bad it started. i felt i needed to do perhaps another 2nd wait and proofread, but i decided against it for the interest of time |
20:13 |
diana_coman |
whaack: other than the proofread though - how useful do you think they'd be for someone new to V and/or to that code? |
20:14 |
diana_coman |
whaack: even more to the point - why did you annotate the code there? |
20:17 |
whaack |
whaack: i annotated the code to demonstrate i understood what it was doing. i think the stupid part of my annotations is that i have notes on "every function". so for the very simple functions my annotations are just noise |
20:19 |
whaack |
(err ^ quotes should not be there for "every function") |
20:20 |
diana_coman |
whaack: no, that's not really the problem; the issue starts from what you just said really: there always is a marked difference between saying/writing something to demonstrate your understanding vs saying/writing something to make a point/communicate some knowledge; and you need to take this step and move away from school-style to adult-style |
20:21 |
diana_coman |
whaack: yes, you are doing it because I ask it but there is a reason for which I asked for it and therefore there is a point to the task beyond demonstration of obeying the order, right? |
20:22 |
whaack |
diana_coman: of course |
20:24 |
whaack |
diana_coman: so if i understand correctly I need to structure the post with the idea in mind that the next person learning V has an easier time should they read my post, not just rewording the entire code (which is only going to make it more confusing) |
20:25 |
diana_coman |
whaack: not even that exactly, heh; remember causes vs purposes? what you say would be focusing on a purpose and as such, you can't quite deliver because... how exactly do you know what "the next person learning V" needs to have an easier time? |
20:26 |
diana_coman |
whaack: the thing is: the point of annotations are not to prove your understanding, no; the point of annotations are to illuminate that which is annotated, correct? |
20:27 |
diana_coman |
is* |
20:27 |
whaack |
diana_coman: yes |
20:27 |
diana_coman |
sorry for the messed up grammar there, it's been a long and weird day here. |
20:29 |
diana_coman |
whaack: so then that's your focus and measure at each step: does this annotation bring some more light on what this code does and how/why? |
20:30 |
diana_coman |
whaack: did you ever have the dubious pleasure of using windows help? (or similar) |
20:30 |
whaack |
diana_coman: i don't know what windows help is |
20:30 |
diana_coman |
whaack: happy you! lol; ok, let me fabricate an example then, 1 sec |
20:31 |
whaack |
diana_coman: that makes sense for the goal with annotating. i must admit i believe i do not fully grok the causes over purposes theme that is so often mentioned here |
20:33 |
diana_coman |
whaack: the clear dividing line there is time really; ie you have to base your decision on past or present, never on the future (because you can't possibly know it) |
20:36 |
diana_coman |
whaack: the windows-style help I had in mind makes free use of circular definitions in a nutshell; eg "enter your 10-digit hwoegt code" "what is a 10-digit hwoegt code?" "that is your code that has 10 digits and is hwoegt" |
20:37 |
whaack |
lol |
20:37 |
diana_coman |
hmrc.gov.uk excels in such help too but I really don't want to look atm. |
20:37 |
whaack |
is that like the paperclip guy? |
20:38 |
diana_coman |
whaack: pretty much,yes; the paperclip guy is an animated version of nonsense-delivery including circular definitions and the like, so yes. |
20:40 |
diana_coman |
whaack: but look that you have some good examples too in there e.g. note 11 goes in the right direction; possibly precisely because you were focusing on saying something there. |
20:41 |
diana_coman |
whaack: also note 9 is not-bad. |
20:43 |
diana_coman |
whaack: btw, 3 seems even wrong actually. |
20:43 |
* |
whaack takes a look |
20:43 |
diana_coman |
whaack: ah, no; it's fine, I just misread, sorry. |
20:44 |
whaack |
ok |
20:45 |
diana_coman |
whaack: so, would you be able to implement V now? |
20:45 |
whaack |
diana_coman: i don't see why not |
20:46 |
diana_coman |
so do it then. |
20:46 |
whaack |
diana_coman: okay i will make it #1 for next week |
20:47 |
whaack |
diana_coman: may i try to write it in CL? |
20:48 |
diana_coman |
whaack: did you read the causes vs purposes canonical ref? |
20:48 |
diana_coman |
whaack: why not, it's your V :) |
20:48 |
whaack |
diana_coman: i have read it but i will read it again |
20:50 |
whaack |
diana_coman: your point on time being the key factor sheds some light |
20:50 |
whaack |
diana_coman: as i received your message about time being the dividing line i had just finished typing " my understanding of causes over purposes is ~ when studying a phenomena, there is little to gain pondering the question for what purpose does this occur? but instead one should ponder what caused it to occur." |
20:51 |
diana_coman |
certainly; to start with, it can't possibly occur for a purpose anyway, how would that work |
20:55 |
diana_coman |
it might be that someone did some action with some purpose in mind, sure, but that still doesn't mean the action occured for that purpose; it still occured from some causes. |
20:56 |
whaack |
diana_coman: i guess i was thinking the point is to try to find those causes instead of guess the purpose in mind |
20:57 |
whaack |
diana_coman: but that might not be correct if you're studying the action because the purpose in mind is the cause of the action |
21:00 |
diana_coman |
whaack: well, aiming to find what goes on in people's minds is rather iffy anyway, not sure you can "find" with any certainty such a thing really. |
21:00 |
whaack |
diana_coman: right but that may be a separate problem from the causes vs purposes |
21:02 |
whaack |
diana_coman: back to our example of V. can't one say switching my annotations from being 'to show i understand Stan's code' to 'to illuminate the meaning of the code' is simply switching my purpose? |
21:03 |
diana_coman |
whaack: thoughts are reactions themselves, you know? |
21:05 |
diana_coman |
whaack: heh, one can say anything really |
21:05 |
whaack |
diana_coman: yes re thoughts being reactions |
21:07 |
diana_coman |
you don't swith the annotations, you switch the way you approach the task: the 2nd approach focuses on the existing code and its clarity and improves on that, it starts from "how can I make this clearer?" |
21:08 |
diana_coman |
you can however, pervert that into a purpose, sure; this is why I'm saying "one can say anything really"; it's possible to aim for whatever notion you may formulate as to "illuminated code" and so pursue that future-illumination, regardless of any causes. |
21:09 |
jfw |
asciilifeform, spyked: http://younghands.club/2019/10/27/jfw-review-week-of-oct-21-2019/#footnote_1_120 re http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-27#1007694 (and my apologies, I should have said here when I noticed) |
21:09 |
ossabot |
Logged on 2019-10-27 17:04:29 asciilifeform: diana_coman: 2nd draft posted. (feedbot appears to be wedged??) |
21:09 |
diana_coman |
whaack: and nobody can give you a fool-proof statement of task as it were. |
21:09 |
whaack |
diana_coman: okay i believe i understand better. you referred to c vs p because i said " oh so my approach to the task is to make it easier for the next person who learns V" but that is making a wild guess of what will be helpful in the future |
21:09 |
diana_coman |
whaack: yes. |
21:10 |
diana_coman |
jfw: ah, so feedbot is actually down? |
21:10 |
diana_coman |
spyked: ? |
21:10 |
jfw |
^ specifically sees eggog on loper-os |
21:11 |
diana_coman |
asciilifeform: do you have your rss messed up somehow/ |
21:11 |
whaack |
diana_coman: ty. i have to eat so i may be slow to respond for a bit. |
21:14 |
* |
jfw likewise grabbing a bite then back to remaining posts |
21:15 |
diana_coman |
jfw: you know, it's actually enjoyable reading your review? |
21:15 |
jfw |
why thank you diana_coman, felt good to get it out |
21:16 |
jfw |
though I caught myself spinning for a sec on 'publish' button... "am I SURE sure sure?" |
21:17 |
diana_coman |
jfw: the one part that hasn't been mentioned much around here yet but I start thinking might be relevant to you: it's important to prioritize and to do *that* well. |
21:19 |
diana_coman |
jfw: heh; sure you're sure, what. |
21:19 |
dorion |
prioritize prioritization ! |
21:19 |
diana_coman |
dorion: ha, you know that's anyway even more your task as a manager than his, right? |
21:19 |
diana_coman |
lolz |
21:20 |
asciilifeform |
diana_coman, jfw : i haven't made any changes to rss since last post |
21:20 |
dorion |
diana_coman yes, and failing that over the years caused me to pull both of us in here. |
21:21 |
diana_coman |
dorion: you'll have to explain to me tomorrow that pull because in the end between the two of you pulling/pushing one another, it's all as clear as mud who did what here. |
21:23 |
asciilifeform |
actually strike that : loox like my doublequotes fix somehow broke it ( i get a mysterious eggog when loading feed , and not presently equipped to debug ) |
21:23 |
diana_coman |
but do finish first your post there, this can wait. |
21:23 |
diana_coman |
asciilifeform: ha! |
21:23 |
dorion |
diana_coman aok, will think about how to clarify the mud. |
21:25 |
diana_coman |
don't worry, I'll ask you questions until it's clear. |
21:26 |
asciilifeform |
diana_coman: i'ma have to cut the thing open to fix, and 0% chance of it happening today, been awake for 14+h already |
21:26 |
diana_coman |
asciilifeform: get some sleep better; I'm reading. |
21:27 |
* |
asciilifeform will be doing a bit moar numerics before may sleep , so if diana_coman has q's in next coupla hrs , will try to answer. |
21:27 |
* |
asciilifeform has also crate of 'dulaps' to unpack & test, but unlikely to today |
21:27 |
diana_coman |
asciilifeform: I'm at the end of a long and weird day so I might need another pass tomorrow (and that won't happen until evening anyway) so don't count on immediate feedback, sorry. |
21:28 |
asciilifeform |
diana_coman: makes sense, got it |
| |
~ 36 minutes ~ |
22:04 |
diana_coman |
"This document is doomed to be revised again. And probably yet again." - bwahahah; asciilifeform , I'll end up cribbing this for a set of quotes on younghands.club , lol. |
22:07 |
whaack |
fff looks like next week i may have to abandon the ship on the digitalocean |
22:10 |
diana_coman |
jfw: btw what does the f in there stand for? |
22:11 |
jfw |
diana_coman: back at kb, catching up. F is for Frederick. |
22:17 |
diana_coman |
thanks. |
22:18 |
jfw |
You have an Irena there too, right? |
22:18 |
diana_coman |
Irina, yes |
22:19 |
diana_coman |
it's the Romanian/Russian form; the English equivalent would be Irene |
22:19 |
jfw |
ah. Is Coman a Romanian name? Don't believe I've seen it often |
22:21 |
diana_coman |
well, Romanian surnames are anyway haphazard because they are rather recent; fwiw it's not the usual form (Popescu as in Mircea Popescu is one of the most common + more usual ending escu, yes) |
22:23 |
diana_coman |
traditionally nobody cared about surnames, it would always be literally, you are X of Y's (aka your father's ) and the usual question in villages goes exactly like that: whose are you? |
22:24 |
jfw |
so much like the origin of '-son' I gather |
22:25 |
jfw |
Anyway, these posts aren't gonna post themselves so I'd better hold my further curiosity for now. |
22:25 |
diana_coman |
certainly; and for that matter similar reason as to Russian patronymics, obviously. |
22:25 |
diana_coman |
jfw: heh, work well then. |