#ossasepia | 2019-10-18

07:20

thimbronion: how's the data collection going?

07:20

Logged on 2019-10-17 12:59:57 thimbronion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-17#1006708 << is the idea here to set up a cloud instance with a bouncer on it maybe per network, then manually list and join all channels on the network and just take advantage of znc's built in logging?

~ 7 hours 41 minutes ~

15:02

07:20	diana_coman	thimbronion: how's the data collection going?
07:20	ossabot	Logged on 2019-10-17 12:59:57 thimbronion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-17#1006708 << is the idea here to set up a cloud instance with a bouncer on it maybe per network, then manually list and join all channels on the network and just take advantage of znc's built in logging?
		~ 7 hours 41 minutes ~
15:02	diana_coman	thimbronion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-10-18#1946288
15:02	ossabot	(trilema) 2019-10-18 mp_en_viaje: [10:24:32] Hey Ahnberg I'm coming from TMSR (http://logs.ossasepia.net). << wtf is wrong with this guy ?
15:03	diana_coman	thimbronion: so get the data but stay off talking to them.
15:04	thimbronion	diana_coman: right in the middle of something but 1) updated post to fix escaping problem with nicks, 2) won't talk to anyone 3) I was unable to get started on collecting the data.
15:05	diana_coman	I see; aite.
		~ 41 minutes ~
15:46	thimbronion	diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-10-18#1946298 What is my status on the IRC Project now?
15:46	ossabot	(trilema) 2019-10-18 mp_en_viaje: but he's certainly made it more difficult for anyone coming after him. which is the exact fucking opposite of helping.
15:54	diana_coman	thimbronion: you are certainly off talking to them so it's not going to be your project, no; trouble is that you supposedly wanted precisely to communicate re china too but you have big problems exactly there.
15:55	thimbronion	diana_coman: indeed that is the necessary conclusion.
15:58	diana_coman	thimbronion: until you seriously fix the communication, the only option open is to be very useful doing tech jobs for people that can communicate.
16:01	thimbronion	diana_coman: I see. Well my poor communication skills have gotten me into a lot of trouble in life.
16:02	thimbronion	diana_coman: and I don't enjoy tech work all that much. I would really prefer to work on fixing my communication skills.
16:08	diana_coman	thimbronion: if it's just about preference, it's unlikely to get fixed in any reasonable time frame; it's the sort of thing that needs to be about "I can't fucking stand this anymore and we'll do WHATEVER it takes to fix it"
16:09	diana_coman	thimbronion: btw, is this why you don't get your own clients for that consulting ?
16:10	thimbronion	diana_coman: yes it is.
16:11	diana_coman	it's pretty much from there that it has to change; or even closer at home for you; this is the sort of thing for which if you were here I'd just send you every day to chat up random people until that first basic bit works at least acceptable.
16:12	thimbronion	http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-18#1006847 << I see what you mean here.
16:12	ossabot	Logged on 2019-10-18 12:08:06 diana_coman: thimbronion: if it's just about preference, it's unlikely to get fixed in any reasonable time frame; it's the sort of thing that needs to be about "I can't fucking stand this anymore and we'll do WHATEVER it takes to fix it"
16:13	diana_coman	that "we'll" was meant to be "will" above.
16:23	diana_coman	thimbronion: say something.
16:23	thimbronion	diana_coman: I have a lot of feelings right now, but not many thoughts.
16:24	diana_coman	thimbronion: I see; trace those feelings back to source to get thoughts; and don't act on them feelings.
16:32	thimbronion	diana_coman: Can you tell me ideally how the conversations should have gone?
16:33	diana_coman	thimbronion: for that matter you know, you should probably just plan a trip to china, invite that Mia for some meal, talk to some people there; that http://thimbron.com/2019/10/a-bitcoin-missionary-in-china/ sounds just about as painful as the networks talk, the same sort.
16:34	thimbronion	diana_coman: it's weirdly easier for me to talk to people in a foreign language.
16:35	diana_coman	thimbronion: see http://thimbron.com/2019/10/espernet-2nd-chance/ ; the core of talking to someone is to actually engage with them personally for the duration of that conversation
16:35	diana_coman	look back through all the logs here: am I just spitting out same thing to everyone and expect they'll magically get it or what?
16:36	diana_coman	thimbronion: fwiw that "easier in a foreign language" points out to some very repressed home-culture/young interactions really.
16:36	thimbronion	diana_coman: no you respond to exactly what people say.
16:38	diana_coman	thimbronion: and even any starter I say is made specifically to that person too for as long as there is a clear person; look back to my first comment on your blog if nothing else; if it's not a person, the next discernible thing (eg the group, the chan, the network, the site, whatevers)
16:40	thimbronion	diana_coman: I had been thinking of visiting China this coming Summer to meet in person the contacts I would have made by that point.
16:42	thimbronion	http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-18#1006864 << this makes sense
16:42	ossabot	Logged on 2019-10-18 12:38:28 diana_coman: thimbronion: and even any starter I say is made specifically to that person too for as long as there is a clear person; look back to my first comment on your blog if nothing else; if it's not a person, the next discernible thing (eg the group, the chan, the network, the site, whatevers)
16:46	thimbronion	diana_coman: I can submit my review by Sunday. But at this point I have no idea what to write for my plan.
16:48	diana_coman	thimbronion: leave both review and plan for when you get back; you clearly need more time to think this through and the review itself should benefit from giving it more thought; but you do need to think of it, it's not going to be disconnect-holidays.
16:49	diana_coman	thimbronion: what is your plan re blog+here while on holidays anyway?
16:50	thimbronion	diana_coman: Re: blog I was planning to take and post some pics. I wasn't planning on doing or saying anything in here during the trip.
16:53	diana_coman	thimbronion: blog is fine but not just pics please; talk to people there, it's holidays + relaxed anyway so it might even help to get over some hangups
16:58	thimbronion	diana_coman: I want to be clear on what hangups I might have. For example, I'm not a shut in. I talk to people around my office (when I'm there), I talk to my local chinese contact a lot. Last time I went to CR I talked to a LOT of people - girls, uber drivers, random americans. Friendly chitchat is no problem whatsoever.
16:59	thimbronion	diana_coman: had this fun situation at the Arenal hot springs where I was talking in Japanese with some Japanese tourists, then talking in spanish with a mexican girl, then going back to english for the American girl. It was great fun.
17:01	diana_coman	thimbronion: that was the initial idea and why you got the talk to networks project - that you actually are fine talking to people; but obviously not and now the only possible suspicion from above is that you are "fine" for as long as it's literally generic chitchat ie exactly not quite engaging specifically with someone.
17:01	diana_coman	and yes, getting drunk on multiple languages is a thing too.
17:01	thimbronion	diana_coman: I think my problem is with conflict.
17:02	thimbronion	diana_coman: wasn't even drinking! (until like the very end)
17:03	diana_coman	thimbronion: no, I know; I said getting drunk on multiple languages; no drinks required, no, just the same resulting happy diziness, lolz; then again, it's even better if drinks + 4 languages, after a while it's just hysterical, but let's get back to what you say your problem is.
17:04	diana_coman	thimbronion: how is it "conflict" with your potential clients?
17:08	thimbronion	diana_coman: I don't think it's conflict. I can't actually think of a time where I've done anything more than ping previous co-workers to see if they know about any work.
17:10	thimbronion	In the IRC chats, I perceived the conflict as being them wanting me to fill out the form, and me wanting to say no I'm not going to do that.
17:12	thimbronion	Also the conflict of my trying to get somebody else to do something.
17:12	diana_coman	thimbronion: re irc chats the problem starts earlier than that anyway; and at any rate, that's a rather weird definition of conflict.
17:14	diana_coman	thimbronion: lolz, do you imagine you'll force people to do something they don't want to, purely through a computer screen?
17:15	thimbronion	diana_coman: I don't imagine I'll force, no.
17:15	diana_coman	(also: that is most pointedly NOT diplomacy so wtf are you mixing there, on one hand imagining conflict and on the other hand claiming diplomacy)
17:16	diana_coman	so then what conflict? the whole point is exactly to engage with them so that they want to do the sensible thing; if they are at all capable of being sensible, sure, but the attempt has to be done to even determine that.
17:17	thimbronion	diana_coman: So maybe I could have had a chat with them about the future of IRC. Like, "Do you see where it's going? You value it don't you? Then you must do X"
17:17	diana_coman	thimbronion: ugh, no; that is ~chinese article,lolz.
17:18	diana_coman	you are there exactly like that chinese guy "buy mah btc cause future, why won't you"
17:18	thimbronion	Yes, I think I am.
17:18	diana_coman	thimbronion: how do those guy's attempts seem to you, by the way?
17:18	thimbronion	Autistic
17:19	diana_coman	quite.
17:21	diana_coman	thimbronion: what you talk to them about in first instance is themselves
17:21	thimbronion	The first time I ever found someone that actually listened to what people said was when I started to Stefan Molyneux. Actually that happened about the same time I started reading the logs and realizing, when I tried to say something in there, that I was not responding to what people actually said.
17:21	diana_coman	obv, for that you need first to be able and take the time/put in the effort to figure out something about who and how they are.
17:21	thimbronion	diana_coman: yes I see I did not do that.
17:22	diana_coman	what's this stefan molyneux?
17:23	thimbronion	Podcaster/Youtuber, mentioned in #bitcoin-assets a few times. "Biggest Philosophy Show in the World" is how he would describe what he does. For many years he took call-ins and worked through peoples problems with them.
17:26	diana_coman	'dat title misses the "how to be happy and fulfilled in 10 easy steps"
17:27	thimbronion	diana_coman: Ah self help?
17:29	diana_coman	thimbronion: yeah but with the result of helping especially the talker; there is also this "listening to people" that is done (and done well at that) traditionally by fortune tellers and the like; I suppose in the US it might be the self-helpers that fill the role; but at any rate, yes, ~any successful show that gets people calling to talk and talk means that the person doing it is at least good at telling people what they want to hear.
17:30	diana_coman	there's a difference though between telling them what they want to hear (and they'll come in crowds to listen to THAT) and getting them to actually hear what they need rather than what they want.
17:32	thimbronion	diana_coman: I don't think he did too much of that. For example, frequently told women complaining about their husbands that the problem lies largely with them. Each call starts with him getting to know the person, going over their childhood. Everything proceeds from there.
17:32	diana_coman	in fairness and on second pass, I suppose "biggest philosophy show in the world" fits better the "i fucking love science" than the self-help.
17:34	diana_coman	thimbronion: that's a. stock answer, not personal b. actually what at least some women absolutely want to hear c. exactly priest style "come and confess your sins and unload your troubles, I have advice "
17:35	diana_coman	do realise that the format and hour and everything already makes a selection of participants
17:36	thimbronion	diana_coman: His show would last sometimes 4 hours. Number of callers varied depending on how long it took to get to the root of the problem.
17:36	thimbronion	diana_coman: I can see c.
17:36	diana_coman	thimbronion: good for them if it also worked.
17:37	thimbronion	Wrt a) I'm generalizing and his criticisms were specifc and based on the caller's previous statements.
17:37	thimbronion	b. I can believe.
17:49	diana_coman	thimbronion: btw if indeed first time experiencing actual human conversation, it's not much wonder you find it difficult in your native language; but how the fuck is that even possible, where /in what sort of thing did you grow up to never have had someone actually talking to you?
17:49	ossabot	Logged on 2019-10-18 13:21:44 thimbronion: The first time I ever found someone that actually listened to what people said was when I started to Stefan Molyneux. Actually that happened about the same time I started reading the logs and realizing, when I tried to say something in there, that I was not responding to what people actually said.
17:50	diana_coman	I suppose it's worth stating explicitly also the difference between talking to someone and talking at someone: the first case involves that someone; the second just uses the someone as direction of some sounds/words.
17:54	thimbronion	diana_coman: Hm. Parents divorced, two adopted sisters much older and with lots of problems. Moved schools almost yearly from age 7. I can recall very few conversations between my parents, who are divorced. Lots of conversations about things/history with my dad. My mom did not talk much, now that I think about it.
17:56	thimbronion	diana_coman: They both definitely have problems saying what they actually think.
17:56	thimbronion	diana_coman: Also scandinavian background if that helps explain things a little.
17:59	diana_coman	the surname certainly made me think -> scandinavian; but at any rate, the past is what it is; the q is what are you going to do for the future.
18:06	thimbronion	diana_coman: I don't know. Like you said, I need to take some times to think things over. I do not want to act rashly, or give up too easily.
18:09	diana_coman	thimbronion: all right.
18:17	whaack	diana_coman: There are currently no footnotes on younghands, correct?
18:32	diana_coman	whaack: hm, that's possible; I'll look at it some time this weekend.
18:34	whaack	okay I will just put (n) in the text and a (n) with the footnote at the bottom for now.
		~ 2 hours 32 minutes ~
21:06	jfw	With 4 hours left I'm not certain I can make my ETA for first post. I will proceed as if I must, because if I don't and miss, I won't know whether I could have.
		~ 35 minutes ~
21:42	diana_coman	jfw: good luck!
21:43	jfw	ty!