04:38 |
spyked |
good morning, #t! following up on the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-22#1915244 thread: I've started reviewing hunchentoot, the first step would be to figure out which code base to use as a starting point from the genesis. |
04:38 |
a111 |
Logged on 2019-05-22 21:36 lobbes: http://www.thetarpit.org/posts/y05/090-tmsr-work-ii.html#selection-197.31-205.258 << I wager there's a good chance you'll publish a genesis of tbnl/hunchentoot before I eat through mod_lisp, but I agree: as pieces emerge, we can sync up, regrind as needed, etc. |
04:38 |
spyked |
*for the genesis |
04:41 |
spyked |
so far I've been looking at the project changelog and the patch history and the patches seem like a mixed bunch, with (perhaps) some useful things and breakage a la sslism. so before going further, I'd like to get some idea of what version of hunchentoot the lordship and the L2 are using |
04:42 |
spyked |
in particular, I saw trinque, phf and ben_vulpes have been using it in the past, so I'd appreciate any input you have on the matter |
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04:47 |
spyked |
and I guess I'd prefer starting from code already battle-tested by L1 (in the form of a tarball + ksum?) rather than shithub, and turning _that_ into a genesis. although I suspect I'll have to dig deeper into the heathenpits of git commits anyway. |
04:51 |
spyked |
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-22#1915245 <-- in other c coad, /me spent his last 2-3 weeks looking at the tcp stack implementation in linus' kernel. it is truly a fungus, macguyvered with duct tape and rubber bands, such that changing one line almost anywhere breaks shit all over the place. |
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04:51 |
a111 |
Logged on 2019-05-22 21:36 lobbes: As it stands I have two full pages of hand-written notes with various c and apache-stack likbez, and that was just so I could understand up to line 152 of https://github.com/mbattyani/mod_lisp/blob/master/mod_lisp2.c (only 900 or so lines left to eat). I most likely will publish these notes as a blog post once all is said and done |
04:54 |
spyked |
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-22#1915226 <-- indeedly so. |
04:54 |
a111 |
Logged on 2019-05-22 19:44 mp_en_viaje: spyked, some very sad http://trilema.com/2017/the-world-has-changed/ shit right there. |
05:00 |
diana_coman |
by now I suspect most code out there is the fungus sort as that's how things "naturally grow" |
05:06 |
spyked |
the weird part is that the linux tcp stack ~works~ for the most part. I imagine the maintainer of that particular subsystem must be a neckbeard with 20+y experience in tcp (because sure, it's not only the implementation, the protocol itself is a mountain of complexity) |
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05:12 |
spyked |
and then looking at e.g. https://elixir.bootlin.com/linux/v3.10/source/Documentation/CodingStyle , one can readily notice that half or maybe more of the tcp code doesn't meet that minimum set of criteria. and yet... it's there. so, I guess re. http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-15#1902966 he was prolly dumb from the very beginning |
05:12 |
a111 |
Logged on 2019-03-15 21:44 mircea_popescu: made slightly mroe interesting by it having been written before rather than after linus went dumb. |
05:22 |
* |
spyked bbl, cotton-bit-pickin |
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~ 4 hours 49 minutes ~ |
10:11 |
asciilifeform |
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-29#1916143 << for some values of 'works' , lol. |
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10:11 |
a111 |
Logged on 2019-05-29 09:06 spyked: the weird part is that the linux tcp stack ~works~ for the most part. I imagine the maintainer of that particular subsystem must be a neckbeard with 20+y experience in tcp (because sure, it's not only the implementation, the protocol itself is a mountain of complexity) |
10:11 |
asciilifeform |
the usual megatonne-of-c-liquishit style of 'works'. |
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~ 41 minutes ~ |
10:53 |
spyked |
asciilifeform, sure. it's surprising that it works "for some values" even, imho. to illustrate: http://archive.is/9Ssvh#selection-71637.0-71641.16 <-- saucerful of barf |
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~ 20 minutes ~ |
11:13 |
asciilifeform |
spyked: not only is the implementation what it is, but tcp per se is massive pile o'shit, where it aint even possible to implement it w/out 9000 tonnes of state machine gnarl |
11:14 |
asciilifeform |
i vaguely suspect that it may have been the original usg-'standards committee'-powered explicitly-organized nobus generator |
11:18 |
asciilifeform |
the protocol is 'fractally retarded' -- i.e. broken on absolutely erry possible level. starting from where it takes exactly 1 trivially forged packet to close someone's connection, to where 'allcomers' get a substantial chunk of memory allocated , and make ddos trivial , to where it forces 9000x moar complicated design of routing gear, to... could continue but why. |
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11:20 |
asciilifeform |
see e.g. old thrd re subj . |
11:20 |
a111 |
Logged on 2016-08-26 13:34 asciilifeform: tcp is evil, fundamentally because it violates the 'NEVER something-for-nothing-to-all-comers-FUCKOFFRANDOS' principle. |
11:23 |
asciilifeform |
... and here ; and elsewhere. |
11:23 |
a111 |
Logged on 2017-03-14 14:31 asciilifeform: Framedragger: the problem with tcp isn't simply that enemy can insert an RST packet and make you blame your peer. (and whitelists do 0 against this.) but that it is very expensive , computationally, long before you have any idea who you're talking to. |
11:27 |
asciilifeform |
tcp shows erry possible sign of having been designed, from the start, to extend the ease of snoopage from traditional circuit-switched telco grid, to the packet world. consider e.g. the 'helpfully' plaintext sequence numbers. |
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11:28 |
asciilifeform |
or how routers on erry hop of a connection are forced to maintain a 'circuit' state in memory, as if they were telco switches |
11:37 |
BingoBoingo |
And routers on network borders need the entire BGP table in RAM |
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~ 47 minutes ~ |
12:24 |
asciilifeform |
meanwhile, in alert readers, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2118&cpage=1#comment-19800 |
12:33 |
BingoBoingo |
In other news, the Cafetera died. An autopsy will be performed. |
12:34 |
asciilifeform |
BingoBoingo: wassat |
12:34 |
BingoBoingo |
The coffee maker |
12:34 |
asciilifeform |
a |
12:34 |
BingoBoingo |
Replacement has been secured |
12:35 |
BingoBoingo |
However I am curious how the cheapest model on the local market failed. |
12:35 |
asciilifeform |
BingoBoingo: get a https://archive.is/UQmLg . cheap, and you'll never want 'machine coffee' after tasted from it. |
12:35 |
BingoBoingo |
And failed at month 11 of the 1 year guarantee |
12:35 |
asciilifeform |
+ ~indestructible. |
12:36 |
BingoBoingo |
I need coffee in volume. ~10 cups minimum |
12:36 |
asciilifeform |
thing makes up in concentration what it loses in volume. |
12:37 |
asciilifeform |
can even pack 1:1 volumetric like the turks themselves do. |
12:38 |
BingoBoingo |
Sure, but that involves breaking a bunch of rather ingrained habits. |
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~ 1 hours 56 minutes ~ |
14:35 |
feedbot |
http://qntra.net/2019/05/huawei-document-deliveries-from-japan-via-fedex-routed-through-us-ieee-professional-association-cuts-ties-with-huawei-affiliated-persons-and-more/ << Qntra -- Huawei Document Deliveries From Japan Via Fedex Routed Through US, IEEE "Professional" Association Cuts Ties With Huawei Affiliated Persons, And More |
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~ 21 minutes ~ |
14:57 |
asciilifeform |
BingoBoingo: s/owing/owning |
14:57 |
BingoBoingo |
ty, fxd |
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~ 52 minutes ~ |
15:49 |
BingoBoingo |
In other news, the flooding back home is approaching 1993 levels |
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~ 3 hours 21 minutes ~ |
19:11 |
feedbot |
http://qntra.net/2019/05/protonmail-caught-cooperating-with-law-enforcement/ << Qntra -- ProtonMail Caught Cooperating With "Law Enforcement" |
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~ 19 minutes ~ |
19:30 |
mp_en_viaje |
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-29#1916138 << this incidentally is as fine a measure of code quality as could ever be hoped for : DLC, "disentangled lines count", the number of lines which can be changed. |
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19:30 |
a111 |
Logged on 2019-05-29 08:51 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-22#1915245 <-- in other c coad, /me spent his last 2-3 weeks looking at the tcp stack implementation in linus' kernel. it is truly a fungus, macguyvered with duct tape and rubber bands, such that changing one line almost anywhere breaks shit all over the place. |
19:31 |
mp_en_viaje |
perhaps to be given as a ratio with loc, as 78/160k. |
19:31 |
mp_en_viaje |
meaning in a 160k lines of code, 78 can actually be edited. |
19:34 |
mp_en_viaje |
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-29#1916147 << you're doing the anchors backwards. |
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19:34 |
a111 |
Logged on 2019-05-29 14:11 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-29#1916143 << for some values of 'works' , lol. |
19:36 |
mp_en_viaje |
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-29#1916158 << certainly persuasive. |
19:36 |
a111 |
Logged on 2019-05-29 15:27 asciilifeform: tcp shows erry possible sign of having been designed, from the start, to extend the ease of snoopage from traditional circuit-switched telco grid, to the packet world. consider e.g. the 'helpfully' plaintext sequence numbers. |
19:45 |
mp_en_viaje |
being a common "private" email service recommended outside the republic > being a "private" email service commonly recommended outside the republic ? |
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19:46 |
mp_en_viaje |
weasiling > weaseling |
19:48 |
BingoBoingo |
ty, fxd |
19:54 |
BingoBoingo |
In wankers "nuclear capacity operating in advanced economies would decline by two-thirds by 2040, from about 280GW in 2018 down to just over 90GW in 2040" << If the capacity is declining, they aren't "advanced economies" unless "advanced" means Africanizing |
20:02 |
mp_en_viaje |
get the fuck out of here. there will be 10 TW nuclear operational by 2040. |
20:02 |
asciilifeform |
noshit. but in ru/cn, so 'doesn't exist' from reich muppet pov. |
20:03 |
mp_en_viaje |
heh. |
20:03 |
BingoBoingo |
mp_en_viaje: AHA, the catch is IEA doesn't count Russia, China, or India as "advanced economies" |
20:03 |
mp_en_viaje |
they're also not counting my dick going down their throat. |
20:04 |
asciilifeform |
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-29#1916184 << noticed almost immediately, lol, but ty |
20:04 |
a111 |
Logged on 2019-05-29 23:34 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-29#1916147 << you're doing the anchors backwards. |
20:04 |
mp_en_viaje |
whatever, next best use for tennessee is the "accidental" re-routing of spent nuclear fuel packages. |
20:04 |
mp_en_viaje |
asciilifeform, it's not the first time! |
20:04 |
asciilifeform |
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-29#1916180 << direct or inverse proportion ? in e.g. ffa, the # of 'can be changed an' still work' is ~0 |
20:04 |
a111 |
Logged on 2019-05-29 23:30 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-29#1916138 << this incidentally is as fine a measure of code quality as could ever be hoped for : DLC, "disentangled lines count", the number of lines which can be changed. |
20:05 |
mp_en_viaje |
asciilifeform, it will ~compile~ tho |
20:05 |
asciilifeform |
often enuff, won't. sorta half the appeal of ada |
20:06 |
asciilifeform |
broken proggy , more times than not , gets caught in compiler |
20:06 |
mp_en_viaje |
how shall i formalize the idea here... |
20:08 |
mp_en_viaje |
you familiar with this phenomenon when, when a change is required, good program needs 1 line touched and github program needs EVERY line touched ? |
20:08 |
asciilifeform |
dijkstra's 'spaghetti' |
20:08 |
mp_en_viaje |
right. that's what i mean re dlc |
20:09 |
asciilifeform |
then sure. d called it 'structured programming' (i.e. the craft of ~not~ writing a proggy like this) |
20:10 |
mp_en_viaje |
not sure how to formalize it, because obviously, "change" in general connotes hilary & her merry dnc |
20:10 |
* |
asciilifeform suspects that dijkstra would've enjoyed 'peh', where there aint even such a thing as a jump |
20:12 |
asciilifeform |
http://btcbase.org/log/2019-05-29#1916188 << i find it riotously lulzy that anyone still can be found to fall for the 'seekrit email' flavour of scamola. srsly, wtf |
20:12 |
a111 |
Logged on 2019-05-29 23:45 mp_en_viaje: being a common "private" email service recommended outside the republic > being a "private" email service commonly recommended outside the republic ? |
20:12 |
asciilifeform |
how the fuck do they get marketed..? 'OUR promisejuice is 9000x moar truthy than $rival's' ?! |
20:13 |
mp_en_viaje |
experimentally, plentyone can still be found to fall for the "just the tip" flavour. |
20:13 |
mp_en_viaje |
evercunt's everbusy. |
20:13 |
asciilifeform |
still beggars belief. these imho are almost literally 'selling brooklyn bridge'. |
20:15 |
asciilifeform |
standing next to the 'seekrit email' people, e.g. the 'herbal viagra' pushers look honest. (at least viagra actually exists) |
20:15 |
asciilifeform |
and cock exists, and could, in principle, stand. whereas 'private email service' is a dry water, a square circle. |
20:16 |
BingoBoingo |
Well, here's hwo herbal viagra works. They get some dry herbal and spray with with viagra then put in capsules. Sell as "herbal viagra" far more honest than the seekrit scamola |
20:16 |
asciilifeform |
for instance. |
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~ 23 minutes ~ |
20:39 |
BingoBoingo |
Still, the Herbal and the viagra are there. The seekrit email doesn't have seekrit, and the email part is doubtful |
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~ 36 minutes ~ |
21:16 |
feedbot |
http://trilema.com/2019/the-clouds-that-threaten-domestic-bliss/ << Trilema -- The Clouds That Threaten Domestic Bliss |