#trilema | 2019-03-12

trinque: imho 'never forgive, never forget' hatred -- can be constructive thing.

00:46

didn't say forgive. more a comment on whether the mind dwells on a missed opportunity to strike yesterday than on striking today.

00:56

nicoleci

yeah i can see that how useless to entertain the past. even so, not sure on the resolve of managing the abundance of how much i need to learn and how little i know.

~ 9 hours 23 minutes ~

10:19

trinque: I am looking at building Cuntoo. Quick question: would there be anything detrimental to having MAKEOPTS set too high? (I see it is set to -j8 at one point in the script, but I only have 2 processors?)

10:20

PeterL: will simply slow

10:21

ah, thanks asciilifeform.

~ 41 minutes ~

11:03

!!v 182852A1C11CD09E84AF66632D1473BE7829A00F43B490203B0DD19A8D41185A

11:03

PeterL rated diana_coman 1 << Wrote eucrypt, keccac implementation, etc. - ossasepia.com

11:06

!!v E9385FF7FBE438EA5E1BDAD216EEC207E80CFDFB9CC28DF359E4E38F196EA67E

11:06

PeterL rated phf 1 << excellent log, vtools - btcbase.org/log barksinthewind.com

11:19

PeterL: you'll also potentially find out where parallelism bugs exists in ebuilds

11:19

I've seen 'em before.

11:20

so you mean it is less likely to have bugs pop up if I lower the number?

~ 28 minutes ~

11:48

PeterL: you won't see a parallelism bug , by definition, with ~1~ thread ; but to say just about anyffin else about'em, is difficult.

11:53

no, I'm not saying "this ritual is how you avoid the bad". I'm saying that cranking the number of parallel jobs will reveal whether builds rely on implicit race-condition ordering, vs having been written correctly with the whole dependency graph of the build expressed in makefile.

11:54

interesting question, what happens when I crank the parallelism to 11, go find out why dont you.

~ 24 minutes ~

12:18

Local army head got fired today https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/manini-rios-esta-reunido-con-vazquez-dijo-que-hablara-de-temas-que-le-preocupan--201931210454

12:20

And in playing Chicken without flinching https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/investigan-participacion-de-los-espectadores-en-el-accidente-de-la-gallinita-ciega-2019312121520

12:22

"El impacto fue registrado por las cámaras de seguridad" << It is a great shame that video isn't out yet

12:36

BingoBoingo: eh folx are still waiting for the vid from the pentagon parking lot cams on '9/11'

12:38

Well, gotta do something during the waiting.

~ 1 hours 12 minutes ~

13:51

!!rate princess nell -2 https://archive.is/mHZsU#selection-52.0-85.11 << After contact with the early proto-Republic, decided to give freely her content to the enemy

13:51

!!rate princessnell -2 https://archive.is/mHZsU#selection-52.0-85.11 << After contact with the early proto-Republic, decided to give freely her content to the enemy

13:51

Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/Rt8io/?raw=true

13:52

!!v 9558A5ECF5CAA3C1E040CBA3E8BAABAD6EE7D18B33B3253CC0F61B0992A07B75

13:52

BingoBoingo rated princessnell -2 << https://archive.is/mHZsU#selection-52.0-85.11 << After contact with the early proto-Republic, decided to give freely her content to the enemy

13:56

feedbot

http://trilema.com/2019/the-freenode-issue/ << Trilema -- The Freenode issue

~ 21 minutes ~

14:17

BingoBoingo: 2013 ?

14:23

asciilifeform: Followed a link from Trilema, decided to make a note for future reference http://trilema.com/2014/lets-do-anjie-well-actually-let-me-do-anjie-while-you-watch/

14:23

a

14:24

Gotta take notes while the reading is fresh

~ 19 minutes ~

14:43

http://trilema.com/2019/the-freenode-issue/ << i'm for moving, seeing no compelling reason to stay. pinging asciilifeform ave1 ben_vulpes bingoboingo danielpbarron diana_coman lobbes mod6 phf spyked trinque for inputs.

↖ ↖

14:45

hanbot: imho oughta move ( as i said in the past, e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-04#1839469 ) , q is 'where'

14:45

Logged on 2018-08-04 22:08 asciilifeform: this being said, i personally would prefer exodus from fleanode to happen on our schedule, rather than in the wake of a catastrophic drop of it into complete unusability.

14:46

I say move.

14:47

mircea_popescu ( in linked thrd ) dug up a coupla possible 'wheres'. but imho oughta begin with gluing together small net ( with boxen in piz ~and elsewhere~ ) and ~then~ bridge it to public nets.

14:47

really oughta spread across a minimum of 3 geographically separate racks, before troo move , imho

14:48

last time this came up , asciilifeform went on a dig of 'what ircd', and found (surprise!1111) MB of c liquishit

14:49

hey phf do you know of a cl ircd ?

14:50

It seems like time to begin moving

14:59

http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-04#1839467 << see also in thrd.

14:59

Logged on 2018-08-04 22:05 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: iirc i proposed at one time an intermediate item on the way to proper gossipd ( 'serpent'-ciphered tunneler to connect coupla ircd instances to each other, and ditto for users ( get otp cookie a la deedbot, get a key that's good for 1 tcp connect ) but so far instead followed mircea_popescu's advice re not wasting sweat on such a thing, but pushing with ffa so as to get with what to gossipd.

15:00

even if 'let's use conventional ircd' -- the q remains , which one -- afaik they aint actually fully interoperable from peering pov

15:01

( from user pov either , they also all seem use slightly variant authentication schemes )

~ 21 minutes ~

15:23

http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-12#1901514 -> I'm for moving; the only reason for staying was being busy with tending to other fires that burnt worse but freenode seems to be burning worse and worse lately anyway; a multi-network bridge sounds best in my opinion but I don't really know how much work needs to be put in to get that.

15:23

Logged on 2019-03-12 18:43 hanbot: http://trilema.com/2019/the-freenode-issue/ << i'm for moving, seeing no compelling reason to stay. pinging asciilifeform ave1 ben_vulpes bingoboingo danielpbarron diana_coman lobbes mod6 phf spyked trinque for inputs.

15:24

re efnet there was http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-12#1769730

15:24

Logged on 2018-01-12 06:10 trinque: on second thought, lets not go to efnet. 'tis a silly place.

15:34

diana_coman: the central headache afaik is http://trilema.com/2019/the-freenode-issue/#comment-128269 , i.e. the various nets have an idjit user lock-in thing going

~ 18 minutes ~

15:53

In Quakenet https://www.quakenet.org/articles/102-press-release-irc-networks-under-systematic-attack-from-governments

15:53

diana_coman et al : i'm also not 100% convinced that the proposed multi-network thing is actually less of a nut to crack than adult gossipd. ( consider, how wouldja do authentication ? the extant ircd's support either '~nuffin, anyone can hijack session' or ssltardism . )

15:54

BingoBoingo: 2014. and imho sounds like less of 'attack on irc' and moar of 'attack' on wotless heathens / allcomerists

15:55

~those~ succumb to fart in the wind, not even speaking of 'attack'

15:56

Well, they had the good sense to keep it linked on their front page after the Snowden leaks made it to "GHCQ fucking with IRC"

15:59

Alarm's been tripped. Warning light stays lit until every Buckingham Palace occupant takes a traffic cone up the ass.

~ 27 minutes ~

16:26

BingoBoingo: what i mean is, it's same 'attack' erry time, and consists 100% of https://www.oglaf.com/humans/

16:26

rather than sumthing particular to irc.

16:28

folx without lymphocytes ~will~ succumb to fungi & errything else under the sun, it dun matter what they do

16:29

at any rate, the move + multi-network wrapper approach seems to me like an excellent way for one to learn and be in a prime position for gossipd really

16:31

diana_coman: i'll admit that it isn't clear to me how effort put into baking glue for oddball nonstandard ircisms helps in re gossipd . irc as i see it is an entirely dead-end tech ( rides on tcp, and 0 notion of crypto , and cannot be retrofitted really )

16:32

learn != reuse code or even tech

16:33

diana_coman: plox to expand here : what in particular is to be learned ?

16:34

what the troubles are in practice; note that I'm not talking about "bake glue" but rather a full run servers

16:39

indeed will learn what the troubles are in practice. only i suspect that 0 of it will have any bearing on the gossipd side.

16:39

( e.g. the problems of mitigating tcp ddos are irrelevant to proper udpistic gossipd. and ditto authentication of handles. )

16:41

it isn't even that i dun think it's worth doing ( fleanode only ever gets ~moar~ rotten, and never less ) . but imho the cost is prolly not recoverable ( in the engineering sense ) .

16:49

asciilifeform, do you mean that a person who made and ran this multi-bridge infrastructure across how many irc networks has gained no useful knowledge for running a gossipd-based service?

~ 46 minutes ~

17:35

feedbot

http://qntra.net/2019/03/local-rag-britain-just-leaving-their-undersea-cable-landing-sites-open-and-unguarded/ << Qntra -- Local Rag: Britain Just Leaving Their Undersea Cable Landing Sites Open And Unguarded

17:42

diana_coman: i hesitate to say 'no useful'. but possibly 'very little'.

17:43

for instance, in saeculum i've set up microshit boxen of various sorts. and could not honestly say that i learned from the experience anything applicable on sane-people planet.

17:52

diana_coman: ever read any varlaam shalamov ?

17:52

There's likely logistics lessons to be learned. Timings necessary to keep conenctions open and other tcp weird.

17:52

fella did 40+yrs in gulag. then got out, and was often asked by curious folx, 'what did you learn to do'

17:52

and he answered honestly, 'to roll wheelbarrow fulla rocks on narrow planks. is all i learned.'

17:53

( he went in for trotskyism. and policy was, trotskyists only wheelbarrow, no cutting wood, no nuffin else )

17:54

( tbf, this was after his 1st 20yrs -- 100% wheelbarrow. during his 2nd 20y, he learned to stick thermometers in arses, became 'medic' , hence lived )

17:57

asciilifeform: i'd trust a gossipd operator that'd also operated the ircd bridge above one who hadn't, other things being comparable.

17:59

hanbot: wouldja be willing to expand re why ?

17:59

( and specifically, why not also 'i'd trust operator who also had in the past set up winblowz 2012' then )

18:04

asciilifeform, you have a very narrowly construed "explain to me what the learning benefit of X is". this is not how my life experience worked out; if it were possible to explain to the ignorant the benefits of education, education itself would work very differently from how it actually works.

18:05

hanbot: this is fair enuff, and mircea_popescu wrote at length on the subj.

18:05

eh this isn't going to teach anyone anything they wouldn't have learned running any other server farm. I and I'm sure several people already do, or have.

18:05

you will learn not what you know you do not know, but what you do not know you do not know. and, most important, whether there even is something there you do not know or not.

18:05

hanbot: but was curious whether you had moar specific notion, or simply gut feeling (nuffin wrong with gut, imho)

18:06

well...it's a large pile of strange that none of us seriously delved into. iono what's in there. do you know what's in there?

18:06

fwiw i dun feel like my many yrs of setting up multi-MB balls of c ??? liquishit on various net-facing boxen, taught me ~anyffin that'd be applicable on hypothetical sane comp

18:06

hanbot: yeah, I'm already running an IRC server elsewhere. there is no high magic in it, only low trivia.

18:06

~100% of the problems i learned to solve, only exist on acct of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892448

18:06

Logged on 2019-02-04 22:12 mircea_popescu: "most people, when faced with a problem, will not investigate the cause of the problem, but will instead want to solve it because the problem is actually in the way of something more important than figuring out why something suddenly got in their way out of nowhere. if you are a programmer, you may reach for perl at this point, and perl can remove your problem. happy, you go on, but find another problem blocking your way, r

18:07

and as to microsoft specifically, i do trust your opinion on microsoft above the opinion of microsoft of an imaginary asciilifeform that never touched it. this is exactly what i meant about finding out whether there's even anything there.

18:07

trinque: is it like a gameserver or something?

18:08

hanbot: this gets complicated. e.g. i put high value on mircea_popescu's pov re programming, even tho he (afaik) moar or less never programs

18:09

you mean other than bash, right? :D

18:09

i think aristotle actually had , sadly, correct notion, where doing some kinds of work actually makes you dumber

18:09

an asciilifeform who had never touched microshit, i suspect, would be a better man than asciilifeform who did..

18:09

hanbot: just stood it up for the sake of exactly this impending need

18:10

better man, yes, but not necessarily better x86-ologist.

18:10

again, only trivia involved. I've also run clusters of postgres, fleets of webservers, etc etc etc

18:10

it's all the same work

18:10

obj i'm ill-equipped to say for sure, hanbot

18:10

trinque: was it the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-21#1837110 item ?

18:10

Logged on 2018-07-21 21:18 trinque: in compounding ironies, I stood up my own ircd_ratbox earlier out of curiosity

18:10

does it run well ?

18:11

*obv

18:11

trinque: okay, but by the same logic people shouldn't implement loggers or whatever else. if it's not useful for you, it's still useful for them.

18:11

in the sense that at some point they've gotta do something

18:23

people are not this undifferentiated category. yes for students, running an ircd is a great idea, like bots or w/e else.

18:23

^

18:24

the upstack claim was that this will help design gossipd. *only* as antipattern and study of antipatterns does not by itself yield sense.

18:24

sadly troo. otherwise microshit escapees would make for brilliant teachers of the art.

18:25

( and if there's 1 thing there is no shortage of in the sad monkey house that passes for kompyooting, it's 'antipattern' -- there's enuff that 'you can eat it with arse' )

18:27

the ~damage~ ( and imho is just about as factual as radiation damage ) from being a programmer, is that familiarity with crud , leads to swallowing, and eventually you learn to live with things that by all rights no one oughta live with. witness how many people think that it is acceptable for a program to sometimes crash, for instance.

18:27

'all programs crash', supposedly.

18:27

and then try and object.

18:29

or , say, take tcp. mircea_popescu aint even a programmer, and is just about as 'clean' as a fella can get in re programming radiation damage and still have worked with comp. but it took asciilifeform 3+yrs to get him to see that tcp is -- by design -- garbage

18:30

( and it took asciilifeform, in turn, 10+yrs , measured from time of 1st thinking about subj, to get there )

18:31

so ftr i will have to disagree with hanbot , in that imho coal miner is ~not~ the best geologist.

18:31

there's a severe narrowing of perspective that almost always comes from crawling around inside mine

18:33

having said this, i'm all for setting up a not-fleanode . and will put relay on dulap as soon as the matter of 'which ircd' is settled.

18:34

but would rather not suffer illusions re 'this is a step to designing gossipd'

18:34

it's shovel work, and necessary shovel work, just like maintaining trb.

18:34

*

trinque same

18:38

all this might even be true.

18:39

prolly should put it in a trilema comment tho'.

18:40

hanbot: i have 0 to disagree in re the scheme mircea_popescu described on his www . it's exactly what oughta be sewed.

18:41

tho hrm, there's the 1 open q..

18:42

hanbot: realtime digestion then proposal in my case.

18:43

absent the "this will be somehow instructive" there's the practical need for infrastructure with which I 100% agree

18:45

http://trilema.com/2019/the-freenode-issue/#comment-128280 << the open q

18:57

hanbot: i'm with trinque on this one -- if we confine the thread to mircea_popescu's www, it will be a very slow thread. i do hope that he finds a working fleanode box to connect to in the meanwhile.

18:58

i'm currently sitting on tepper.freenode.net ( 192.186.157.43 ) fwiw.

18:59

ah, I hadn't even realized he couldn't connect *at all*

19:00

trinque: i dun know this for a fact; maybe simply spat at the string of barf and stopped for nao

19:05

Rizon looked attractive from a letting people piss all over copyrasty perspective, but https://archive.is/fBL9n#selection-91.1-99.149

19:07

BingoBoingo: i'd prefer if mircea_popescu picked which horse is healthiest in that glue factory

19:07

per my lights, they're all ~identical

19:07

i.e. buncha people who all promise same thing, and deliver ~same maybe-it

19:08

Well, been reading docs. EFnet has few. These networks appear to in fact promise different things

19:17

http://www.routing-com.undernet.org/ << lol, romania specifically banned!

19:17

lol!

19:19

ohai mircea_popescu

19:19

bulgaria worx ?

19:20

dawg, check out their new dns!

19:20

lol

19:21

asciilifeform at first i thought you went through the list of old dns responses/old servers and fished out one inexplicably not on mine

19:21

reminds of sov army shower -- grunt holds kettle over lieutenant's head

19:21

mircea_popescu: so i did

19:22

but no, check it out, from http://trilema.com/2019/the-freenode-issue/#selection-27.0-59.0 to http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/dmzjQ/?raw=true in six hours!

19:22

not as if i dun regularly come up against same barf as mircea_popescu did this morning

19:22

just that it happens erry quarter or so, when my fiber decides to sad

19:23

mircea_popescu: afaik they autorotate'em ( by what satanic principle, i do not know at all )

19:23

anyways. im pretty sure this wasn't answering ~six hours ago.

19:23

*

asciilifeform believes

19:25

anyways, imo the matter still stands. originally my idea was that phf will put up a drawing of a dwarf with a humongo hammer at the close of the 2nd chapter in the tmsr saga (as per last words of http://trilema.com/2019/the-freenode-issue/#comment-128287 ), but i guess instead it'll be a ... large spider ? wtf.

19:26

but the idea is, come up with a network by tomorrow. that work ?

19:27

meanwhile, examining horses in the glue factory, efnet yields https://archive.is/bEyLF#selection-161.1-179.19

19:28

2015 ?

19:28

( and maybe even then healthiest horse, for all i know the others same but not reported )

19:28

whatever, the irc network forum. wtf.

19:28

2015.

19:28

asciilifeform: EFnet doesn't have passwords for IRC users. Just their forum tards. EFnet doesn't provide auth at all.

19:28

EFNet however forces short nicks

19:28

maybe time to consider by what criteria to even pick

19:28

other than 'not fleanode'

19:29

the correct approach would be to go in their admin channels whatever they are, talk to the ops, see who would welcome more servers.

19:34

verily

19:34

so asciilifeform went to 'quakenet', and saw guess what,

19:34

http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/wkd9B/?raw=true

19:35

so ?

19:35

then went to 'ircnet', www last updated in... 2004. and none but the u.s. relays seem to answer

19:35

talk to Flusher / beorn then

19:36

*

hanbot aims nailgun @ quakenet

19:36

asciilifeform i don't get it, you object to antique motd ?

19:37

'No racism and/or Nazism' smells of 'code of conduct'ism

19:37

but so far this one's in the lead, i.e. box actually answered

19:37

i don't read those things.

19:37

and incidentally! shouldn't you be ffaing or something ?

19:38

would luvv to go back to it, with mircea_popescu's blessing

19:38

i was under notion that this item is an 'all hands' firefight

19:39

http://irc.netsplit.de/servers/?net=IRCnet << there's a buncha live servers.

19:39

asciilifeform far from it. you do your thing, other people'll do this thing.

19:40

aite!

19:40

i'ma off to debuggery room then, bbl

19:41

fwis, trinque already got one being tortured for the past six months ; depending on other workload mebbe BingoBoingo or spyked feel like putting one up also (but very much do not fall into the tarpit of chasing butterflies, from one to the next and catching none, fellas).

~ 37 minutes ~

20:18

http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-12#1901514 << I'm of the thinking we should move too; however, I've been thinking the same thing all day, 'where?'. Looks like the court is investigating some options for existing networks, as well as considering one of our own.

20:18

Logged on 2019-03-12 18:43 hanbot: http://trilema.com/2019/the-freenode-issue/ << i'm for moving, seeing no compelling reason to stay. pinging asciilifeform ave1 ben_vulpes bingoboingo danielpbarron diana_coman lobbes mod6 phf spyked trinque for inputs.

20:20

I myself used to run an ircd-hybrid, but that was srsly like 20 years ago. So I'm not sure how much active knowledge I have on the subject, currently. Anyway, whatever or where ever we go, it's just a temporary place until we have gossipd.

20:21

you wanna try getting one up ?

20:22

this is going to sound wacky, but how married are we to IRC? xmpp federates far easier than IRC.

20:22

I could stand one up somewhere, my time is a bit limited this week. Might have some time this weekend.

20:22

I've run an ejabberd before too, quite familiar.

20:23

For what I can see, I'm not so certain that we're married to IRC, but I suspect that our bots/loggers are a bit more closely wed to the protocol.

20:23

trinque well, we're "married" in the sense that all extant infrastructure's written against it.

20:24

does xmpp even exist in deployments anymore ?

20:24

I'll go poking around in public jabber servers and see how lively they are

20:25

in my case, the protocol side of the thing is decoupled from my services such that switching protocols is about a week or two of work.

20:26

well, irc networks's federating's a five minutes config file settings, to list your ircd among the rest

20:26

http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-12#1901578 << I'll see what I can do about standing up an ircd sometime this week. It'll take a bit to lock down the conf of the thing, but eventually, if all looks good, we should be able to link up our nodes, trinque.

20:26

Logged on 2019-03-12 22:09 trinque: hanbot: just stood it up for the sake of exactly this impending need

20:27

i happen to think this is a thing they got right (accidentally, and for purely historical reasons).

20:28

*

mircea_popescu will stand up a muscovy server for hanbot too, let no oppinion, no matter how earnestly held or freely expressed, pass unpunished.

20:28

sure, if we're talking about just using own IRC network, trivial. if we're talking about peering into an established net, it'll involve some committee of dipshits assenting

20:28

lol

20:28

so basically the offer for ircnetowkrs is "we're bringing three boxes"

20:28

trinque yes. and i hold we gotta ask em all.

20:29

documented dipshittery > presumed dipshittery.

20:29

no disagreement here

20:30

trinque in your experience what's the bottleneck, ram ? cpu ?

20:35

never had a large IRC server, but can't imagine a lot of state in RAM per user.

20:37

i'll also state that mine was never huge either. had ~2-3 channels, ~20-25 users. the biggest thing I recall was just having enough b/w so peeps stay connected.

20:39

*

mod6 bbl, mmmeat :]

~ 27 minutes ~

21:06

you know, to revisit http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-12#1901543 -- one could at least learn whether i should provision for ram or cpu!!!

21:06

Logged on 2019-03-12 20:32 diana_coman: learn != reuse code or even tech

21:17

I have spent a lot of years reading very stupid things, but reading docs to try to distinguish IRC networks today...

21:19

I feel much dumber and angrier than I did when seeing the news of Freenode retardation

21:24

But as awful as IRC documentation is the XMPP thing... I tried to read some explanations of what XMPP is and how it works, but the 2004 era buzzwords and "keep updated" stuff is thick

21:28

<mod6> i'll also state that mine was never huge either. had ~2-3 channels, ~20-25 users. the biggest thing I recall was just having enough b/w so peeps stay connected. << They all want pipe

21:30

For something named internet RELAY chat... the docs make it seem everyone is afraid of adding new relays. Imagine if the email folks in the 80-90s instead broke to this level of paranoia

21:32

eventually they did, hence google ended up stuck with it.

21:44

*

BingoBoingo going for a walk to unload this shit from the head

~ 1 hours 2 minutes ~

22:47

in my brief dive I have yet to find evidence that anyone on xmpp talks about anything other than xmpp

~ 15 minutes ~

23:02