Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2019-01-10 | 2019-01-12 → ↓
02:22 diana_coman oh hey asciilifeform , that looks good!
02:26 diana_coman client did build previously on gentoo so yes, I'd expect it builds on cuntoo as well really
~ 7 hours 26 minutes ~
09:52 feedbot http://qntra.net/2019/01/us-profesional-organization-for-psychologists-condemns-masculinity-as-harmful/ << Qntra -- US Profesional Organization For Psychologists Condemns Masculinity As Harmful
10:01 asciilifeform diana_coman ( and mircea_popescu , when he wakes up ) -- do you have a position on http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2963#selection-2087.0-2115.72 ?
10:04 asciilifeform meanwhile, pehbot updated
10:04 asciilifeform !!up pehbot
10:04 deedbot pehbot voiced for 30 minutes.
10:05 asciilifeform !A .008871B618BB1046D3E9402594D417A66A008A783015CE571154D8FBA8FBFA28.003706868725DC1588310446A51BADC1461ACED1F02AE12768D926D9EADEF4E8G#
10:05 pehbot asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000003D29513C432BF1D2A8A0E47BFBDCF33649538
10:05 diana_coman asciilifeform, hm, I can't say that I have a very clear idea of ALL potential implications but atm I don't see some specific downside to that; I suppose the alternative would be to raise an error on gcd(0,0)?
10:05 asciilifeform diana_coman: correct
10:05 asciilifeform diana_coman: near as i can tell, nobody ever does tho
10:06 asciilifeform !A .0.1G#
10:06 pehbot asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
10:06 asciilifeform !A .1.0G#
10:06 pehbot asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001
10:06 asciilifeform !A .0.0G#
10:06 pehbot asciilifeform: 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
10:06 diana_coman myeah, that's not in itself a reason to not do it (if anything, it's the opposite really, given the usual "what everybody does"
10:06 asciilifeform diana_coman: correct. but i also did not 'ha! let's make it eggog cuz nobody did'
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10:07 asciilifeform ideally would like to conceive of a justification for either setting.
10:07 diana_coman mathematically it does grate, yes
10:07 diana_coman is the performance penalty significant?
10:07 asciilifeform depends where used.
10:08 asciilifeform i'ma leave it permitted for nao, and if somebody has persuasive arg why to prohibit, will listen.
10:08 diana_coman other than that the "reason" I can see is that otherwise in principle you need an additional check each time you call gcd (i.e. to make sure you don't step even if once in a blue moon) on this particular rake
10:08 asciilifeform yes.
10:09 asciilifeform i sat down last night and tried to conceive a 'div0'-style situation where you 'bought own cross' as result of permitting gcd(0,0) to execute. but did not find one.
10:10 diana_coman I suppose only in some silly situation such as "let's take 2 numbers from user; compute gcd and then proceed to divide and print results"
10:11 asciilifeform rright but why wouldja do that.
10:11 asciilifeform if yer dividing, you gotta determine that it aint by 0.
10:11 asciilifeform e.g.,
10:11 asciilifeform !A .1.0/#
10:11 pehbot asciilifeform: EGGOG: Pos: 4: Division by Zero!
10:12 diana_coman well, because technically gcd is never 0, right?
10:12 asciilifeform !A .1.1.0M*
10:12 pehbot asciilifeform: EGGOG: Pos: 7: Division by Zero!
10:12 asciilifeform and so forth
10:12 asciilifeform diana_coman: indeed gcd aint ever legitimately 0.
10:12 diana_coman i.e. why would you check a gcd for not being 0 since it should never be 0
10:12 diana_coman so there
10:13 asciilifeform imho arg can be made for it being the gcd-invoker's responsibility to know what to do with the output
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10:14 asciilifeform ( and observe that all instances where we divide, we're doomed to check for 0 regardless )
10:17 asciilifeform in situation where cpu cost matters greatly, testing 1 register (output of gcd) for nullity is cheaper than testing two (its args)
10:17 asciilifeform possibly this is why it was traditionally permitted.
10:17 asciilifeform ( tho it grates on me that i never found any coherent discussion of subj anywhere, yet )
10:18 diana_coman possibly; at the end of the day it's a choice and one can have gcd implemented one way or another, as long as the choice made is clearly stated on the tin
10:18 asciilifeform correct. hence why i decided subj is worth touching in the piece & in the l0gz.
10:19 asciilifeform it is also clearly stated in the proggy comments.
10:19 asciilifeform diana_coman: iirc gcd(0,0) is permitted in your sys also
10:19 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886075 -> on additional digging, static lib apparently does have libnameinit so yest I was looking for the wrong thing
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10:19 a111 Logged on 2019-01-09 14:14 diana_coman: my trajectory in hitting walls on this was precisely that: make it static -> surprise, no adainit exported/included, checked the .a file and everything, went nuts; make it dynamic -> ugh, need -lgnat and whatnot; rtfm again and again, there is this calo-magar
10:20 diana_coman but now I'm confused on whether *that* is enough or not (standalone thingie claims it takes care of everything needed for elaboration, correctly)
10:21 asciilifeform diana_coman: if your 'main' is a c/cpp proggy , you gotta trigger the elaborator 'by hand', regardless of which type of lib your ada coad is in, afaik.
10:21 diana_coman asciilifeform, yes, but is the one generated for static lib the same? or wtf is with the encapsulated-shit then?
10:22 diana_coman because in the docs it's claimed that non-ada main should be with the encapsulated-lib version, ugh
10:22 asciilifeform last time i touched the subj with own hands, i concluded that elaborator isn't even permitted in static ada lib.
10:22 asciilifeform but i cannot yet say conclusively. diana_coman is at the bleeding edge of this q.
10:22 diana_coman so far it certainly feels like bleeding, dunno about edge
10:23 asciilifeform diana_coman: what i meant was, my proggy has no elaborator, and yours -- has, so i am not qualified to say 'here's how to fix elaborator in static lib' of yet.
10:26 * diana_coman goes to read some more and test even more
10:27 * asciilifeform goes to tea
~ 1 hours 22 minutes ~
11:49 asciilifeform diana_coman: if you're utterly stumped, i can allocate some cycles to the problem tomorrow -- with mircea_popescu's permission ( i swore to him that i will not embroil meself in matters euloric , recall )
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11:51 asciilifeform ... or i suppose if yer still stumped next friday night, then.
~ 32 minutes ~
12:23 asciilifeform unrelatedly: diana_coman , were you ( or anyone else... ) ever able to derive a bound for 's' in m-r ? ( http://ossasepia.com/2017/12/28/eucrypt-chapter-3-miller-rabin-implementation/#selection-125.2765-125.2766 )
12:24 asciilifeform cuz without a bound, s is potentially ffawidth - 1 .
12:25 asciilifeform which means ugh, for e.g. 2048bit candidate being tested for primality in constant time, ~each~ witness needs 1 modexp and 2047 modsquares !
12:27 asciilifeform hrm , asciilifeform's 'wtf' to this was based on a backwards reading of his chalkboard. modsquares are fast.
12:28 asciilifeform so we dun actually care.
12:28 asciilifeform would still be handy if someone knew of a smaller bound for s, but not burning q.
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12:30 asciilifeform btw per asciilifeform's chalkboard, the physical cost of constanttime m-r is ~equal to that of (2 modexps of the given width) x (number of witnesses) .
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12:31 asciilifeform this means that the use of gcd litmus very muchly wins.
12:33 asciilifeform take for example diana_coman's system , where 16 witnesses are used. ( i'd use moar, but let's go with the example. ) so if we're generating 2048b primes (for 4096b rsa mod), per ch.14b timings on asciilifeform's iron this costs ~2.9s per modexp, and thereby ~93sec per m-r procedure.
12:34 asciilifeform whereas the gcd litmus ( gcd(candidate, primorial) ) costs 1ms .
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12:35 asciilifeform anyway i'ma post the actual physical measurement once i have it, but i dun expect it will be far from this chalkboard figure.
12:35 Mocky is the number of witnesses to be a knob or fixed?
12:35 asciilifeform Mocky: what'd 'fixed' mean ?
12:36 Mocky hard coded
12:36 asciilifeform nope
12:37 asciilifeform per the ffa plan, 'P' command will take two numbers from the stack, a candidate integer and a witness. author of pcode tape determines how many witnesses to use, he iterates by generating witnesses and calling P repeatedly as many times as he wants
12:38 asciilifeform ( in each invocation, P returns 1 if m-r didn't 'go bang' and a 0 if did. )
12:39 asciilifeform presently looping is prohibited in pcode, in later ch. will be introduced. (but i am spoiling things..)
12:39 Mocky right
12:40 asciilifeform this allows 'P' to be a constant-spacetime operation, and hands the decision of 'just how important to constant-time the whole prime generation' to the author of the tape.
12:40 asciilifeform ( he can use 'G' as litmus, or not use, can use 16 witnesses or 666, etc, rather than being forced into a particular scheme )
12:41 asciilifeform see, i fucking hate 'magic numbers'.
12:41 Mocky indeed
12:41 asciilifeform the only 'magic number' in ffa is the concession that all FZ must be at least 256bits long
12:42 asciilifeform and this was forced by the irons ( it's evenly divisible by all known bus widths )
12:48 asciilifeform ( re 'how many witnesses', see diana_coman's article, it reviews the necessary maffs, i.e. P(yer prime aint a prime and you die) == (1/4)^n, where n is # of witness )
↖ ↖
12:50 asciilifeform observe that by this scheme, we also avoid hardcoding primorials for 'G' test. author of tape is responsible for including a primorial ~for his chosen ffawidth~ if he intends to use G litmusing.
12:52 asciilifeform consider from pov : there is no particular reason for enemy to know precisely ~how~ you baked the primes for yer privkey.
12:55 asciilifeform a 'graduate' of ffa (i.e. fella who ~read~ the thing, as it was intended to be read, and fit-in-head) will have no trouble writing his particular variant of correct prime generator for his particular type of key.
12:55 asciilifeform i'ma include a few obvious approaches as example tapes, but it is NOT the intention that anyone use'em as-found.
12:58 asciilifeform 'peh' is intended as a working, weaponized demonstration of the 'specificity of diddling' principle. (but perhaps this was obvious to errybody.)
13:02 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-11#1886349 -> better spent on ffa, surely; thanks for the offer anyway though!
13:02 a111 Logged on 2019-01-11 16:49 asciilifeform: diana_coman: if you're utterly stumped, i can allocate some cycles to the problem tomorrow -- with mircea_popescu's permission ( i swore to him that i will not embroil meself in matters euloric , recall )
13:03 diana_coman so far I can tell that the static lib has the huge disadvantage that one needs then to link with it everything but the kitchen sink to bring in all it needs from ada runtime
13:03 diana_coman so that'd be at least the "encapsulated" part explained
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13:03 asciilifeform diana_coman: plz dun see the orig statement as ' asciilifeform presumes that diana_coman is dummkopf and problem is trivial, asciilifeform can do it with 1 hand '. i simply dun like to see people sitting stuck, is all.
13:06 asciilifeform and ftr i'm surely doomed to run into diana_coman's puzzler myself, when i go to write a threaded proggy (e.g. adaized trb)
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13:07 diana_coman asciilifeform, I know, no worries at all! onth I'm not going to *sit* stuck, no - digging at it
13:07 asciilifeform aite
~ 1 hours 11 minutes ~
14:18 asciilifeform meanwhile, in other lulz, http://koclab.org/ffa.html
14:19 asciilifeform ( i dun have a trademark on the phrase, naturally, but still a lul )
14:21 asciilifeform http://www.reparaz.net/oscar/misc/dudect.html << elsewhere in heathendom.
14:30 feedbot http://qntra.net/2019/01/huawei-sales-director-arrested-in-poland-over-ambiguous-spying-charges/ << Qntra -- Huawei Sales Director Arrested In Poland Over Ambiguous Spying Charges
14:30 asciilifeform lol dafuq was he doing in the reich
14:31 BingoBoingo Selling
14:37 * asciilifeform pictures convo, 'hm we send the n-th d00d to trade with the natives' 'and..?' 'skull came back, cannibals ate' 'who wants to go next'
~ 3 hours 5 minutes ~
17:42 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-11#1886376 << grr, oughta be 1/(4^n)
17:42 a111 Logged on 2019-01-11 17:48 asciilifeform: ( re 'how many witnesses', see diana_coman's article, it reviews the necessary maffs, i.e. P(yer prime aint a prime and you die) == (1/4)^n, where n is # of witness )
17:44 asciilifeform err, nm, lol, they're same thing, asciilifeform prolly oughta go to bed
17:55 feedbot http://qntra.net/2019/01/three-weeks-into-partial-usg-shutdown-over-single-budget-item-small-signs-becoming-visible/ << Qntra -- Three Weeks Into Partial USG Shutdown Over Single Budget Item, Small Signs Becoming Visible
~ 1 hours 40 minutes ~
19:35 feedbot http://qntra.net/2019/01/pantsuit-capital-allocator-jeff-bezos-mismanages-household-to-dissolution-after-sexing-up-49-year-old-matron/ << Qntra -- Pantsuit Capital Allocator Jeff Bezos Mismanages Household To Dissolution After Sexing Up 49 Year Old Matron
~ 23 minutes ~
19:58 asciilifeform !#s varanul
19:58 a111 1 result for "varanul", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=varanul
19:58 asciilifeform hrm, could've sworn there was a moar recent mircea_popescu thread re same
19:59 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-08#1885893 << there.
19:59 a111 Logged on 2019-01-08 17:10 mircea_popescu: (that article, btw, remarkable because i told ro bezos "Si, draga Varanule, nu-i clar ca mai ai cinci ani" ie, "dear reptile, it's not clear you have five years left" in 2012 -- by 2014 he was in jail. because hey, mp is right now and again accidentally which is to say 1024/1024 occurences on his blog etc etc)
20:00 asciilifeform wtf re '49 Year Old' tho! i'd naively think 'may as well hang for a sheep as for a lamb'...
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~ 15 minutes ~
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~ 2 hours 30 minutes ~
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