Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2018-08-13 | 2018-08-15 → ↓
11:01 asciilifeform meanwhile, in heathendom lulz, https://archive.is/43EIJ >> 'Amid mounting public pressure to address Jones' hate speech, Apple's Tim Cook and Eddy Cue met over the weekend and decided to pull five of Jones' podcasts from their platform'... << 'по просьбе трудящихся'(tm)(r) !
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11:01 asciilifeform 'Hours after Apple announced its move, Mark Zuckerberg and his team at Facebook made the decision to pull four of Jones' pages' etc.
~ 1 hours 48 minutes ~
12:49 phf oh this is beautiful, the new "registered only" restriction on channels means that unless your bouncer auto identifies, you get kicked off the channel
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12:50 phf ave1: i've updated zfp with regrind and the latest zfp_3_platform
12:54 asciilifeform in other recent lulz, somebody submitted a http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/2FF2BB54467E196A58785C82FC6B74E789ACA48679FF310D31DDFDCD0C934C7C . the item in the username corresponds to http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/03C39D10AC31A5845BE14895E18743165B7BA74E71D3D4A0D62710232203DAC3 . but the N of the former does not divide the M of the latter ( dunno whether the submitter thought that it does ? or what specifically he was tryin
12:54 asciilifeform g to accomplish. )
12:56 asciilifeform my best guess is that somebody was testing a (buggy) submitter.
12:59 asciilifeform phf: mircea_popescu specificially switched on +r to cut down on spamola, see http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-04#1839441 thrd
12:59 a111 Logged on 2018-08-04 20:51 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu sets mode +r #trilema << RIP from_xxxx users...
12:59 asciilifeform ( so far -- worked )
13:00 asciilifeform interestingly, #asciilifeform still spam-free despite no +r , evidently the spam folx are using a hardcoded list of chans that dun include it yet
13:02 asciilifeform phf: what were the inputs for the regrind ? seems like i missed something on ave1's www
13:03 phf asciilifeform: i saw it, i'm pointing out that this addition breaks things. you have to make sure that every single client plays along with freenode's defective ident system, otherwise you get breaks in logs, etc. e.g. phf bouncer is used as a fallback for logs, to ensure continuity, where the fact that the bouncer would come back naively (i.e. without trying to negotiate with nickserv) was a feature
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13:04 asciilifeform phf: i dun get it, my bouncer worx ( i.e. the user fleanode sees, is registered )
13:04 phf asciilifeform: you bouncer autoidentifies with fleanode then
13:05 asciilifeform aha
13:06 phf but that doesn't always work (for fundamental reasons of non-synchronized protocol), so i have it entirely disabled on mine. i'll add it back, but there's going to be an event X sometime in the feature, where both bot and bouncer failed to come back, resulting in log break. with previous configuration that was less likely
13:07 asciilifeform prolly the Right Thing would be to have the actual logtrons ( phf's, ben_vulpes's , Framedragger's if he were still alive , etc ) sync to one another as fallback
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13:08 asciilifeform i suspect that fleanode will only get moar broken as time marches on, never less.
13:08 phf nah, makes no difference in this particular situation. you want your thing to come back by any means necessary to continue witnessing. as of now "coming back" is a much more complicated process
13:09 asciilifeform how does it make no diff ? if the logtrons were synced, then if even 1 is alive, the continuity is maintained
13:09 phf asciilifeform: for the scenario i'm describing it makes no difference
13:10 phf yes, for the general reliability it's an improvement.
13:11 phf in the simplest case joining a channel is a send-only process. can theoretically fully ignore what the server is saying and still get a successful join. not so when you have to negotiate with nickserv (at the very least need to time it right, so that you send you privmsg after the connection has been established, which is almost entirely "organic" process)
13:11 phf so +r drops the reliability of all logtrons
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13:12 asciilifeform phf: have you found that actual gap already happened somewhere ? ( if it did -- i missed )
13:12 phf yes.
13:12 asciilifeform plox to note where, ftr ?
13:13 asciilifeform ( i.e. can point to material in e.g. ben_vulpes's logtron, that is currently missing from phf 's ?? )
13:13 phf i get it, but i haven't done investigation
13:14 asciilifeform phf: i mean, this is a 'hole in the boat bottom'-level item, so imho oughta show if you find.
13:16 phf well, i've seen lines missing during netsplits, which i suppose is not this critical. i suspect ben_vulpes's logbot doesn't have a fallback mechanism, so when it drops there's the reconnect window, which i suspect i could find one or two with missing one or two lines. ben_vulpes will have to speak for himself though.
13:17 asciilifeform would be handy if the 2 logtrons could at least output raw data that one could diff in cmdline
13:17 asciilifeform ( not even speaking of writable sync )
13:17 asciilifeform then could answer this q mechanically, in about 20 sec
13:17 phf btcbase already does that, internally. i've offered people in the past a feed (since i don't want that service to be abused), but i don't think anyone expressed interest
13:18 asciilifeform a url that one can GET and puts out e.g. last 500kB of raw log, isn't so much moar abusable than the ordinary formatted feed imho
13:19 phf asciilifeform: that's an idle request
13:19 asciilifeform how's that
13:20 phf to close upstack before it gets lost, you need http://ave1.org/2018/gnat-zero-foot-print-take-4-introduction-of-the-platform/ and http://ave1.org/2018/gnat-zero-foot-print-take-3-regrind/ the later is a full regrind (which i also didn't notice until btcbase failed to link 4 to rest)
13:20 asciilifeform phf: http://ave1.org/2018/gnat-zero-foot-print-take-3-regrind/ is the one i missed, ty
13:21 asciilifeform !#s http://ave1.org/2018/gnat-zero-foot-print-take-3-regrind/
13:21 a111 2 results for "http://ave1.org/2018/gnat-zero-foot-print-take-3-regrind/", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=http%3A%2F%2Fave1.org%2F2018%2Fgnat-zero-foot-print-take-3-regrind%2F
13:21 asciilifeform http://logs.bvulpes.com/search?q=http%3A%2F%2Fave1.org%2F2018%2Fgnat-zero-foot-print-take-3-regrind%2F&c=trilema << missing from ben_vulpes's log also
13:21 asciilifeform i suspect it was deedbot hiccup, rather than phf's logtron, in this case
13:24 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-12#1450437 http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-11#1450068
13:24 a111 Logged on 2016-04-12 14:12 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-11#1450068 << http://btcbase.org/log-raw/
13:24 a111 Logged on 2016-04-11 09:50 mircea_popescu: incidentally phf is there a log bundle for download somewhere ?
13:24 phf
13:26 asciilifeform oh neato
13:26 asciilifeform nao lessee if ben_vulpes has one. then can diff.
13:27 phf this follows ye old kako format, in fact the pre-trilema files are kako's
13:27 asciilifeform i expect there'll be spots where a thing is 1 or 2 places out of order ( fleanode does not reliably preserve same-millisecond ordering iirc ) but aside from that oughta be diffable afaik
13:28 phf ...
13:29 phf there's no timestamp information in irc protocol. the time is whenever the client received it
13:29 asciilifeform right, would have to subtract those prior to diff.
13:30 phf also kako's format includes a unique id as the first field, obviously will also need to be removed
13:30 asciilifeform aha
13:31 asciilifeform unless i'm thick, after subtracting those 2 fields, can diff.
13:31 phf we've had this conversation long time ago, that irc loging is a purely gossip-like thing. at best you can say that "a111 received this message at such and such time, was claimed to be from X"
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13:31 asciilifeform right
13:32 asciilifeform theoretically errybody oughta have seen the same lines tho (even if not always in exact order)
13:32 phf unless there's netsplit
13:32 asciilifeform aha
13:32 asciilifeform i do not recall what ben_vulpes does re netsplits
13:32 phf and things become tricky when bot gets kicked off for whatever reason
13:34 phf i mean to do reliable logging you need to track the whois "on server", and spawn 2 bots per server, which then all negotiate a single consensus message to promote to canonical "this is what was said"
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13:35 asciilifeform would prolly also need logic to force the 2 to connect via different fleanode boxen etc
13:35 phf i'm pretty sure we had pocket conversations during netsplits, that none of the bots heard
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13:35 asciilifeform i'm quite convinced that this happened, and that it explains various cases of 'we DID this but wtf it aint in the logs'
13:36 phf asciilifeform: you missed what i said. whois tells you which server user connects through. to prevent a netsplit scenario, you have to connect to every one of those boxes with at least one bot, but better yet n+1
13:36 asciilifeform aaa
13:36 asciilifeform ok i get.
13:36 phf asciilifeform is/was on server karatkievich.freenode.net (Montreal, CA), phf is/was on server card.freenode.net (Washington, DC, US) etc.
13:37 asciilifeform iirc mine is still set to rotate through a couple
13:37 asciilifeform but yes
13:37 asciilifeform ( my fiber here bumps 1ce or 2ce / yr, so in practice there's very little rotation on my end )
13:39 phf i mean, your bots gotta exist in a distributed pool, each does a whois on join, negotiates a spawn of a new bot if there's an untracked connection. of course this is an unreasonable amount of engineering for a logbot
13:40 asciilifeform phf: approx similar to the sweat reqd to build own fleanode, aha
13:41 phf own freenode comes with a neat feature of logger on relay
13:43 phf and you start getting freenode/gossip overlaps, e.g. each l1 could run own fleanode, connect server-to-server, etc.
13:43 * trinque figures there's some phrase in russian that means roughly "complexity accumulated in bureau A because not permitted/unwilling to change how bureau B works"
13:43 asciilifeform my understanding was that mircea_popescu refrained from giving signal 'build us a fleanode' in the past on acct of (but not limited to) the reason where heathens (e.g. fetgurlz) would have difficulty visiting . but we already have the +r hoop for them to jump, i dun see how much worse would be own fleanode.
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13:44 asciilifeform trinque: that's more or less ~all~ software complexities.
13:44 trinque sure is.
13:44 asciilifeform iron, too.
13:44 asciilifeform 'these here 15,000 transistors are because we gotta talk to pci bus' etc
13:44 asciilifeform yer comp consists ~99++% by weight of this bureaucracy.
13:47 asciilifeform this is sorta why e.g. FUCKGOATS runs on 40 milliwatt ( of which 95% are lost as heat in the 10x-margined analogue pwr filtration in the daughterboards) whereas pc burns 100watt if were doing same work, etc
13:48 phf trinque: nothing comes to mind, though i'm sure there's gotta be something in 70s su phrase book. we gotta ask rotakus though, that seems more of their thing (plus they would've had much better luck saying stuff like that, might've been too close to home in SU)
~ 1 hours 6 minutes ~
14:54 deedbot http://qntra.net/2018/08/joe-stacking-takes-off-with-2-incidents-in-recent-days/ << Qntra - Joe Stacking Takes Off With 2 Incidents In Recent Days
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~ 48 minutes ~
15:43 * mircea_popescu has wiped the windows10 off a hp "envy". jesus fuck, anyone had ANY FUCKING IDEA just how many times you gotta reboot and bless the box to get through the lock microshit put on the boot process ?!
15:43 mircea_popescu there's like three intermediate states, progress by degrees.
15:44 asciilifeform oh hah the 'secure boot' lulz
15:44 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: at least you found box where it ~has~ the off switch
15:44 asciilifeform increasingly they dun have one at all
15:45 mircea_popescu i didn't search, just what happened ot pick up.
15:45 mircea_popescu i was about to take screwdrivers to it tbh.
15:46 mircea_popescu asciilifeform but as far as it was concerned, i suspect it also "didn't have" the switch. you should see wtf windows has morphed into, jesus christ.
15:46 mircea_popescu do you realise it literally spams you with advertisements during usage ?
15:46 mircea_popescu "hey, it seems like you're copying a lot of files, would you like to buy this or that ?"
15:46 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the new biosen are lulzy also, often they have tcp stack nao, and read file system , and even show spam in the setup
15:46 mircea_popescu EXACTLY like shitty cellphone service, "hey, you just placed a call, we'll send spam sms 10 minutes later, so you think it's the op and look"
15:47 mircea_popescu asciilifeform anyway, the "setup" page consisted of, i kid you not, 20 word "descriptions" of the various items and links to "read more" ie ON THE FUCKING WEB. no knobs.
15:48 mircea_popescu it was an eye widening experience for yours, truly.
15:48 asciilifeform re screwdriver, typically with newer shitboxen there is nothing even to do inside, only win from taking it apart is to help fit into rubbish bin
15:48 mircea_popescu but anyway, let the record reflect i did do it. and THEN had to conjure up wireless driver, because holy shit it comes with an unknown pos atop the realtek.
15:48 asciilifeform ( e.g. in the sad saga of http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2433 )
15:49 mircea_popescu first time ever i had to compile wireless drivers.
15:50 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: at this point this is a decade-long pestilence, even asciilifeform's x60 (circa 2009, iirc) terraforming recipe includes patching bios to permit hand-installed nic to work , followed by installation of same
15:50 asciilifeform ( mine eneded up with an atheros card iirc )
15:50 mircea_popescu ^
15:50 mircea_popescu precisely. wtf is that ?!
15:51 asciilifeform they tend to include intel's , for which to this day no driver
15:51 mircea_popescu item has intel sound, haven't bothered with.
15:51 asciilifeform why even sound on a lappy, lol
15:51 asciilifeform but intel's soundcard is unremarkable iirc and worx even in 2.4 kernel
15:53 asciilifeform ( http://btcbase.org/log/2016-03-03#1421281 << x60 thread ftr )
15:53 a111 Logged on 2016-03-03 20:46 asciilifeform: i eventually put back the heathen bios on the x60, BUT i ida'd it and nop'd out the imbecile nic whitelist
15:53 mircea_popescu i dunno, to watch ashley lane walk around town ?
15:53 asciilifeform i guess i have simple tastes , dun particularly need to hear the cuntlips schlick
15:54 mircea_popescu item is actually very pleasant, from a purely visual perspective. stupid-ish kbd, but large and light. fits perfectly on ass of girl holding her ankless so you can hurt her asshole while you lovingly kiss another.
15:54 mircea_popescu assemblage can be drastically improved by placing laptop atop her ass, playing publicdisgrace.com. bring the light of the great urban outdoors in the dank of the cellar.
15:54 asciilifeform this isn't same box as had the sad backlight is it
15:54 mircea_popescu nah.
15:55 asciilifeform ( iirc that one was also a fiorina creation )
15:55 mircea_popescu recent item, made last year or such.
15:55 BingoBoingo Ah, a long tale of the new recruit's lappy
15:56 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo it will please you to know your name having been mentioned in passing in aside conversation, it proved remarkably enough to now denote the evil of internet boys among the new recruits.
15:56 mircea_popescu THEYRE GONNA FUCKING SHOW YOU!
15:57 BingoBoingo Lol
15:57 diana_coman ahahah, kid peeked in and red "bongo!"
15:57 diana_coman so yes, it catches the eye
15:57 mircea_popescu ikr ?
15:58 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo who do you think you are, anyways!
15:58 diana_coman re laptop, I can say I carry around one that still has the windowssomething label, what of it
15:58 mircea_popescu diana_coman what do you mean label ?
15:58 diana_coman some sticker?
15:58 asciilifeform the little sticker ?
15:58 asciilifeform i like to put'em on public toilets
15:58 diana_coman asciilifeform, yes!
15:58 mircea_popescu sooo... ? what about it ? lol
15:59 diana_coman eh, it is a sort of public toilet
15:59 mircea_popescu asciilifeform anyway, re tastes, you've not seen any of this "interview" bs. it's fucking comedy central, watching solo/girl-girl models talk to each other.
15:59 diana_coman mircea_popescu, it has otherwise gentoo, no problem
15:59 diana_coman no windows boot or whatevers
15:59 mircea_popescu diana_coman did it also have the "uefi" bs ?
16:00 asciilifeform afaik x60 was the ~last lappy without uefiism
16:00 diana_coman mircea_popescu, I think it did but by now I don't even remember for sure re this particular one
16:00 asciilifeform ( ftr, in addition to the many other 'wonders', uefi-infected bios will search erry disk for ms-signed turds and execute'em on boot, erry single time )
16:01 mircea_popescu well this is the core of my point! holy shit you sheltered existences, you have nfi what it's even like, out there!
16:01 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i know, had to format. let it read ext4, wut.
16:01 diana_coman and at any rate gentoo is only last linux installed, being as it is a public toilet iron of sorts, it got at different points in its life everything on
16:02 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: dun fughet to nuke the 'ata hidden partitions' nonsense
16:02 BingoBoingo AH, that's why it still has the sticker
16:02 asciilifeform ( typically needs magic code sent via the sata )
16:03 mircea_popescu ima have to check that.
16:03 asciilifeform hdparm -N /dev/sdx
16:03 asciilifeform will show sumthing like max sectors = 78125000/78165360, HPA is enabled if it's there.
16:06 mircea_popescu danke
16:07 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841285 << the sorta shit tim cook has time during weekend for.
16:07 a111 Logged on 2018-08-14 15:01 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in heathendom lulz, https://archive.is/43EIJ >> 'Amid mounting public pressure to address Jones' hate speech, Apple's Tim Cook and Eddy Cue met over the weekend and decided to pull five of Jones' podcasts from their platform'... << 'по просьбе трудящихся'(tm)(r) !
16:07 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841287 << yes. fucking retarded.
16:07 a111 Logged on 2018-08-14 16:49 phf: oh this is beautiful, the new "registered only" restriction on channels means that unless your bouncer auto identifies, you get kicked off the channel
16:08 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: pretty sure it's ~all~ he got time for. well, possibly aside from buggery, and from deciding which connectors and keyboard keys to remove from crapple product next
16:08 mircea_popescu "what do you think of elon musk ? i mean, his ideas ?" "what fucking ideas ?"
16:09 asciilifeform lol ideas
16:09 trinque that "touch bar" thing is the saddest shit. they literally put the stupid watch they made in the laptop.
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16:09 mircea_popescu trinque hopefully they put a laptop in the watch next.
16:09 trinque progress!!
16:09 asciilifeform trinque: i can only assume that 'make emacs unrunnable on this' was specific objective
16:10 mircea_popescu end up with a programmable hardware inclusion list on which to run a php ftp emulator.
16:10 asciilifeform trinque: difficult to picture the logic, unless it was deliberate 'coca cola classic' gambit, where it's to be put back later
16:10 trinque the logic is "oooh what a demo, so future"
16:11 mircea_popescu anyway, back to the +r thing... we did get the no j/p spam part. sadly the way this shit works leaves no optimal choice, gotta pick this-or-that. is the idea we... i picked the wrong set ?
16:12 mircea_popescu asciilifeform trinque totally has it, remember who the audience is. http://trilema.com/generatia-fara
16:12 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the 1 hole, is that 'generation-fara' dun buy $4k lappy. they buy ipnoje.
16:12 mircea_popescu but their ~employer~ does!
16:13 asciilifeform tru!!
16:13 BingoBoingo Boomers love demos
16:13 asciilifeform 'welcome to butugychag, here's yer wheelbarrow, it has only left handle'
16:13 mircea_popescu see ? that's the beauty of it, all these lost fucktards who don't have $50 bucks to pay on my queens fulla jacks, nevertheless, NEVERTHELESS i say, "is very rich"
16:13 mircea_popescu how ? "my rent is so and so".
16:15 mircea_popescu if it doesn't come with a laptop-with-watch-in-it, it's not as PRESTIGIOUS a job. (term of art, from the guy with the vehemently delectable pork sausage)
16:15 asciilifeform lol livery
16:15 mircea_popescu you know ?
16:16 asciilifeform ( i'm almost surprised livery-proper hasn't made comeback yet )
16:16 mircea_popescu how "hasn't" ?
16:16 mircea_popescu very much has. company dress code, and they DO all dress very much alike. the differences are superficial.
16:16 asciilifeform well they dun make the programmers wear 'crapple uniform' yet
16:16 asciilifeform ( or do they )
16:16 mircea_popescu yes, they do.
16:17 mircea_popescu "in this office, we dress from $scripshop)
16:17 mircea_popescu and we drop our "hard earned" scrip at $bar
16:17 mircea_popescu and we so and so.
16:17 asciilifeform i recall slaving in a galley where the brass handed out 'company shirts', then later saw'em in the kitchen as dishrags
16:18 mircea_popescu you don't understand how "ironic" works. YES the emblazoned tshirts. of course, it's what they're for, channeling this sentiment.
16:18 mircea_popescu but then when same galley hand "team building", all the stupid cunts had the same cut of panties on, you just didn't look.
16:18 asciilifeform entirely possible
16:19 mircea_popescu kinda how this works, best i can tell. "this is the livery for expressing your disdain to livery, and this is the livery to express your dedication to livery, and there you go, a complete experience out of a cardboard breakfast box"
16:20 asciilifeform 'company dress code' must be a west-usa thing, asciilifeform went through several slaveries where he was only one not dressed in hobo garb
16:20 mircea_popescu nothing wrong with hobo garb, "shows you care" "about the less fortunate".
16:21 asciilifeform dunno if meant to 'show' anyffing, it's what folx go around in when entirely not giving shit, costs $5
16:21 trinque *conspicuously not giving a shit
16:21 asciilifeform chinese plasticloth
16:21 mircea_popescu or so they think, at any rate.
16:23 mircea_popescu recall, the whole point of propaganda is for you to choose without having to. hence both http://trilema.com/2017/the-practical-costs-of-hallucinated-freedom/#selection-419.0-431.38 and http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-13#1841255
16:23 a111 Logged on 2018-08-13 17:27 mircea_popescu: george sanders has an excellent point re this : "for new yorkers who want to go out of town, new haven is a stretch of sidewalk between the taft hotel and the schubert theatre, surrounded by what appears remarkably like a small town".
16:24 mircea_popescu asciilifeform think about it this way, "ropa americana" ie, 2nd hand clothes imported from the us, are VERY DISTINGUISHABLE in actual not-giving-a-shit places. how would this be, if it carried no information ?
16:24 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841297 << how bad is it ?
16:24 a111 Logged on 2018-08-14 17:03 phf: asciilifeform: i saw it, i'm pointing out that this addition breaks things. you have to make sure that every single client plays along with freenode's defective ident system, otherwise you get breaks in logs, etc. e.g. phf bouncer is used as a fallback for logs, to ensure continuity, where the fact that the bouncer would come back naively (i.e. without trying to negotiate with nickserv) was a feature
16:24 * asciilifeform pictures herd of orcs in 1990s 'adidas' cloth
16:24 mircea_popescu ALSO "not giving a shit" amirite.
16:25 asciilifeform i'd picture that genuine not-giving-shit will be in plain white rag
16:25 asciilifeform or whatever fell of the truck most recently
16:26 mircea_popescu in my case it's in suits. but in any case, it'll ahve to not have been pret-a-porter not-giving-shits.
16:26 mircea_popescu because you specifically can't have fried ice, these two are contradictory. either it's marketed to or not.
16:27 mircea_popescu asciilifeform see, eating roadkill is only not giving a shit until some nutjob in santa cruz comes up with $275 to rent a cable channel slot and starts pushing his miracle cure, diet & philosophy.
16:27 asciilifeform afaik typical orc puts on a suit solely when being buried
16:27 mircea_popescu sorta like being a homosexual was only a sexual choice before they came up with the political choice of being gay.
16:28 * mircea_popescu can't resist linking http://trilema.com/2016/the-herd-of-independent-minds-or-has-the-avantgarde-its-own-mass-culture/#selection-149.423-149.564
16:29 asciilifeform dunno, the antics of marie antoinette did not cancel actual milkmaids existing
16:30 asciilifeform non-'ironically'
16:30 mircea_popescu breifly back to phf 's discussion of r+ thing : i confess i mostly did it to encourage the "spammer" to put registration in. sadly... went instead the way of http://logs.minigame.biz/2018-08-13.log.html#t22:59:16
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16:30 lobbesbot Logged on 2018-08-13 22:59:16: <Xoc11> ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ http://magaimg.net/img/wqz.jpg ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ http://magaimg.net/img/wqz.jpg ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­
16:30 mircea_popescu nfi why people are stupid.
16:31 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yes, but at the time ~there was something to do~. this, yes, always rescues. but what's there to do ? last time esltard did something the wall was still standing.
16:32 asciilifeform there's always plenty to do , even when the 'doers' are in drunken haze instead
16:33 asciilifeform especially then.
16:33 mircea_popescu http://logs.minigame.biz/2018-08-14.log.html#t01:25:07 << very much the central problem republic's been dealing with since serious work begun.
16:33 lobbesbot Logged on 2018-08-14 01:25:07: <Mocky> and i added implementations of those methods to worldhandler.cpp, which i can show if curious. but this brings me to my problem: I can't include worldhandler.h in any of my code without bringing in the whole cs / ps spitoon
16:33 mircea_popescu asciilifeform no, because milk comes from supermarket, so what milkmaid.
16:34 mircea_popescu (yes, obviously, my highly structured response to the problem being called slavery, but that's neither here nor there, walled garden so to speak)
16:34 asciilifeform lol Mocky about to become familiar with the art of the hacksaw
16:34 mircea_popescu the fellow'\s fucking endearing, what can i tell you.
16:34 asciilifeform he's full time eulorist nao, iirc
16:35 mircea_popescu well, until he finds a real job (tm). as per above.
16:35 asciilifeform ( i assume he was found equal to the work, at some earlier time )
16:35 asciilifeform aa
16:35 mircea_popescu god fucking help me if ima make square "ice sculptures" and give out ptolemaic imaginary beasts.
16:36 asciilifeform i dun think i know the ref -- are these euloric artifacts ?
16:36 mircea_popescu "this most prestigious rhino has a cat's head inside the chicken head on each of its four wingtips. SO MUCH MORE PRESTIGIOUS than the flying whale of that other temple"
16:37 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the ice sculpture ? it's http://trilema.com/2012/generatia-fara/#selection-141.0-141.68 ; and the strange beasts, it's http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841452
16:37 a111 Logged on 2018-08-14 20:09 trinque: that "touch bar" thing is the saddest shit. they literally put the stupid watch they made in the laptop.
16:37 asciilifeform aa
16:38 mircea_popescu traim milenii de impliniri marete, pre-attic nile valley v2.0.
16:38 mircea_popescu http://logs.minigame.biz/2018-08-14.log.html#t01:30:42 << such a fucking perfect snowglobe.
16:38 lobbesbot Logged on 2018-08-14 01:30:42: <Mocky> the only thing I can think is if I can pull out those includes from worldhandler.h and put them in worldhandler.cpp, but I just don't see it. 90% of the methods have csString, or EID, csPtr, csVector3
16:39 mircea_popescu THESE IDIOTS REIMPLEMENTED C STRINGS you understand me. also wrongly, of course. fucking pancake.
16:39 asciilifeform oh mircea_popescu , recall the flowgraph project ?
16:39 mircea_popescu aha ?
16:39 asciilifeform cuz as it stands, to this day the state of the art re hacksaw work, is the plain old chalkboard...
16:39 asciilifeform d00d is gonna have to lay it all out , by hand.
16:39 mircea_popescu i suspect "he'd just like something that works".
16:40 mircea_popescu hell, so would i. now where is it.
16:40 asciilifeform http://printonic.ru/uploads/images/2016/02/22/.tmb/thumb_img_56cae08a49909_resize_900_5000.jpg << oblig re 'just like'
16:41 asciilifeform ^ that is where it is. ( in fairy tale )
16:41 mircea_popescu no pure objects in reality, huh. plato, i r disappoint.
16:42 asciilifeform there might be, but you gotta drill through 500 metres of rock and 100 of liquishit, to get to'em.
16:42 mircea_popescu asciilifeform first time i saw a steam-powered sledge. russian technology ?
16:42 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i think you ro folx had ~similar tale, with the pike fish and the magic stove
16:42 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2014-02-14#503935 << golden age item ? :D
16:42 a111 Logged on 2014-02-14 17:22 asciilifeform: where 'honey don't forget to refuel the reactor, milk the bear, and turn us in to the kgb.'
16:43 asciilifeform ( lazy son (tm)(r) likes to sit on warm stove all day, makes threewishes, gets magic stove & other 'just works'en )
16:43 * mircea_popescu is just giving hard time
16:43 asciilifeform olden age item.
16:43 asciilifeform pre-su, but quintessentially slavic (tm)
16:44 mircea_popescu the drawing ? strikes me as very 1990s.
16:44 asciilifeform aah pic is prolly modern
16:44 asciilifeform but typical of genre
16:44 mircea_popescu aha.
16:45 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841302 << nah. integration is generally a bad idea.
16:45 a111 Logged on 2018-08-14 17:07 asciilifeform: prolly the Right Thing would be to have the actual logtrons ( phf's, ben_vulpes's , Framedragger's if he were still alive , etc ) sync to one another as fallback
16:45 asciilifeform https://i.pinimg.com/736x/7e/22/01/7e2201f558d42e467cc35c278b211882--stoves-fairytale.jpg << '80s ver
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16:45 mircea_popescu wtf do i care what "the agreed upon log" looks like.
16:45 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yup! that, very 80s, visually!
16:45 asciilifeform btw the orig folktale included mega-line 'and many did the stove crush as it went'
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16:46 mircea_popescu ahahahaha
16:46 asciilifeform ( he drives it to the palace and takes over kingdom )
16:46 mircea_popescu "why did russian inventors not develop airplane ?" "and many did the stove crush as it went."
16:46 asciilifeform ahahahayes
16:47 asciilifeform this is recurrent motif , e.g. self-enfooding tablecloth
16:47 mircea_popescu the guy that was going to make a working satellite fell into latrine and sunk under weight of wristwatch (that included laptop).
16:48 asciilifeform peculiarly dar al islam, in spite of barrel rolls and immelmanns on flying carpet, also somehow did not pioneer airplane...
16:49 mircea_popescu it's one thing to want it... and another thign to dream it.
16:49 asciilifeform noshit
16:49 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841309 << i'm persuaded the problem exists. now wut do ?
16:49 a111 Logged on 2018-08-14 17:11 phf: so +r drops the reliability of all logtrons
16:50 asciilifeform http://logs.minigame.biz/2018-08-14.log.html#t01:52:40 << incidentally asciilifeform coupla yrs ago made failed attempt to replace 'boost' in trb with cpp11isms. principle obstacle was that gcc 4.9x doesn't really have 100% working cpp11.
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16:50 lobbesbot Logged on 2018-08-14 01:52:40: <Mocky> is it permissible to use c++11 features with the client/build? I couldn't tell from the jamconfig. it seems like the int64_t type is a c++11 thing and that's in there.
16:50 asciilifeform ( but also that it introduces massive batch of unknwown deviltry in place of ~known )
16:50 mircea_popescu tell me about it.
16:51 asciilifeform it's part of how i ended up with ada : found that just about all of the 'good parts' of cpp11ism were lifted from it
16:51 asciilifeform ( lifted poorly, unsurprisingly )
16:51 asciilifeform e.g. the spectacular clusterfuck of 'smart pointers'
16:52 asciilifeform quite likely was attempt to copy ada behaviour while retaining 'compatibility'
16:52 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841344 << this is so.
16:52 a111 Logged on 2018-08-14 17:31 phf: we've had this conversation long time ago, that irc loging is a purely gossip-like thing. at best you can say that "a111 received this message at such and such time, was claimed to be from X"
16:53 mircea_popescu the very deliberate, and very plain gossipd-philosophy roots of logotrons are indeed not to be forgotten, either.
16:53 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: this being so, still imho suxx when , we yes had convo, but then it aint in any logs anywhere
16:53 asciilifeform at random
16:53 mircea_popescu explain "had convo"
16:54 asciilifeform y'know, like here an' nao
16:54 mircea_popescu but this is in the logs.
16:54 asciilifeform right. and then netsplit, and suddenly not
16:54 mircea_popescu but then explain "had convo". if i http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-30#1838270 it's netspliut yes ?
16:54 a111 Logged on 2018-07-30 16:14 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/W9sYG/?raw=true
16:55 mircea_popescu involuntary privacy is to be resolved by the parties involved, not by the logger.
16:55 asciilifeform speaking of fleanode weather, rather than deliberate off-forum conv
16:55 mircea_popescu define "deliberate"
16:55 mircea_popescu freenode is not an agent.
16:55 asciilifeform as in !later tell mircea_popescu http:...gpgturd
16:56 mircea_popescu error : abstract symbol "deliberate" doesn't admit to be defined formally.
16:56 mircea_popescu if you did it, it was deliberate. that's the definition of "you".
16:56 asciilifeform sure does. if mircea_popescu speaking into a gpgtron, then deliberate off-forum. if he's talking into a wire that turns out aint plugged into nuffin, then weather.
16:56 mircea_popescu um.
16:56 mircea_popescu is the proper honorific for this weather mr or ms ?
16:57 asciilifeform well poseidon is a mr
16:57 mircea_popescu you either did it or didn't do it, we can't just invent doers by looking around, can we now.
16:57 asciilifeform what was the line with the mills , from mircea_popescu
16:58 asciilifeform !#s self milling
16:58 a111 1 result for "self milling", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=self%20milling
16:58 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-16#1800298 <<
16:58 a111 Logged on 2018-04-16 18:04 mircea_popescu: aand in today's cogitations, "all machines are milling machines -- some self-milling, some not entirely".
16:58 mircea_popescu or from the other structure looking in towards this same thing, the ~state~ of being public is something to be set by the participants, not by the fucking scribe.
16:58 asciilifeform unreliable scribes suck tho
16:58 mircea_popescu how is logotron going to decide for you what you ~meant to~ have public.
16:58 mircea_popescu it's reliable enough, if it hears it says.
16:59 asciilifeform rrright but thread was specifically re 'sometimes it dun hear on acct of $lameness'
16:59 mircea_popescu ok, but the problem is how to solve. "speak otherwise" seems right thing ; "change its hearing" seems wrong thing.
17:00 asciilifeform aha
17:00 asciilifeform i suspect that playing 'let's patch winblowz' but with fleanode, is not winning proposition, yes
17:00 mircea_popescu otherwise what, one day you accidentally cut your kbd cable while playing with cnc mill, phf is stuck putting code into a111 to bridge electric airgap ?
17:01 asciilifeform funnel gotta be plugged at correct end.
17:01 mircea_popescu i believe so.
17:04 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841351 << this sounds like the fucking lamborghini of all logotrons. seriously, connect ~two~ clients to ~each~ ircd and then have them ring-vote ? i agree it's the correct design, fwiw, but maybe hold off on implementation some time ?
17:04 a111 Logged on 2018-08-14 17:34 phf: i mean to do reliable logging you need to track the whois "on server", and spawn 2 bots per server, which then all negotiate a single consensus message to promote to canonical "this is what was said"
17:05 mircea_popescu otherwise this mega-logotron is actually larger than the freenode it logs. might as well use IT then instead.
17:06 asciilifeform is ~= what asciilifeform noted, downthread
17:07 mircea_popescu (but yes, i readily admit that the original notion in my head is for replacement to eventually grow, organically, out of the loggers, and this is what informs the "meh, too soon" recurrences http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-29#1819587 )
17:07 a111 Logged on 2018-05-29 17:28 mircea_popescu: trinque, the whole fucking idea is to replace it once and good, with gossipd.
17:08 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841353 << agreed.
17:08 a111 Logged on 2018-08-14 17:35 phf: i'm pretty sure we had pocket conversations during netsplits, that none of the bots heard
17:09 mircea_popescu the counterbalance, however, being that public conversations are by their nature immutable. what can you possibly ever say in public ? the ~same~ thing over and over again, yes ? hence the http://trilema.com/2018/let-me-tell-you-how-bad-i-have-it/#selection-29.0-29.43
17:11 mircea_popescu the necessary correlate to "no, you can't have your lunch and eat it too, just as you couldn't when you asked me earlier, and just as you won't later on", ie, "you won't get the answer you wish to hear no matter how many times you ask", ie, immutably in front of idiocy -- there's not that much to lose, not really, out of public conversation.
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17:12 mircea_popescu if she whispers "i love you, master" just as you feel her asshole tear you might deeply regret having missed hearing it ; but if alf says (yes ? name not pronoun ?) c++ bungled smart pointers, what am i going to miss ? it's not fucking going away. if only it did. it's not. the reason he fucking said it, even is because the damned thing won't go away already.
17:13 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: recall thread where ( i fughet which one of us ) posed gedankenexperiment, put in an eliza made out of collection of ' n00b: $input mircea_popescu: $output ' pairs, and see what it does to n00bs
17:13 mircea_popescu aha!
17:14 asciilifeform sorta how 'faq' was invented.
17:14 asciilifeform ( somewhere i got a GB+ of faqolade from the golden usenet days, some are pretty lulzy reads )
17:18 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: imho log is important labour-saving device, lack of ability to point n00b to $oldlog , instead of having to say same thing 10,000 times, is one of the plagues that killed usenet
17:19 asciilifeform ( granted , literacy only worx if there exist reader also, and not merely chuckcha-is-a-writer )
17:19 * asciilifeform brb,meat
~ 15 minutes ~
17:34 mircea_popescu ok, labour saving, but gotta actually save labour you know ?
17:39 Mocky http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841573 << this is all new to me, I've been learning cpp from Stroustrup 4th ed. where he goes out of his way to act like cpp11 is the only version that ever existed
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17:39 a111 Logged on 2018-08-14 20:50 asciilifeform: http://logs.minigame.biz/2018-08-14.log.html#t01:52:40 << incidentally asciilifeform coupla yrs ago made failed attempt to replace 'boost' in trb with cpp11isms. principle obstacle was that gcc 4.9x doesn't really have 100% working cpp11.
17:40 Mocky re: hacksaw skills, yes, I can see the need for this quite clearly
17:46 mircea_popescu it's a learning journey.
17:47 Mocky but you repeat yourself
17:47 mircea_popescu lol
17:53 BingoBoingo All reading is re-reading!
17:54 mircea_popescu how did the monk that hated laughter go, "but a splendid, eternal recapitulation".
17:57 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841367 << no, the "on account" was very specifically "count of free hands".
17:57 a111 Logged on 2018-08-14 17:43 asciilifeform: my understanding was that mircea_popescu refrained from giving signal 'build us a fleanode' in the past on acct of (but not limited to) the reason where heathens (e.g. fetgurlz) would have difficulty visiting . but we already have the +r hoop for them to jump, i dun see how much worse would be own fleanode.
17:58 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841375 << ahaha. the joe stack report.
17:58 a111 Logged on 2018-08-14 18:54 deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/08/joe-stacking-takes-off-with-2-incidents-in-recent-days/ << Qntra - Joe Stacking Takes Off With 2 Incidents In Recent Days
18:01 mircea_popescu "In the first incident a SEATAC ground crew member 29 year old Richard Russell" << could use some commas.
18:03 mircea_popescu "I have spent the total years of my adulthood unlearning that crap from only a few years of my childhood. " << that poor guy. i'd say on reflection this is utterly the engineerhead problem, "takes a whole adult life to unlearn five lines of socialist idiocy a stupid woman poured into the 3yo head"
18:11 BingoBoingo ty, fxd
18:14 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: often whole life -- still notenuff
18:16 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841639 << actually quite pertinent to the thread -- stroustrup spent virtually entire past 20yrs , in successive attempts to coverup his n-1-st warcrime by pretending 'neverhappened' and... carrying on with moar of same!
18:16 a111 Logged on 2018-08-14 21:39 Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841573 << this is all new to me, I've been learning cpp from Stroustrup 4th ed. where he goes out of his way to act like cpp11 is the only version that ever existed
18:18 asciilifeform sorta the polar opposite of vtronic development : 'this is c++, this always was'
18:18 Mocky I have nfi how much influence he still has on standard, but spends entire preface kissing feet of latest version
18:18 deedbot http://qntra.net/2018/08/ny-times-attempting-to-meddle-in-brazilian-election-by-publishing-essay-by-corrupt-motherfucker/ << Qntra - NY Times Attempting To Meddle In Brazilian Election By Publishing Essay By Corrupt Motherfucker
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18:18 asciilifeform whereas 'no , motherfucker, what c++ actually is, ~is~ the the microshit crock of shit'
18:27 asciilifeform if one were to ~set out to~ take the merely convoluted pointersandoverflowslang aka c, and turn into ~permanently~ indecipherably stateful churning liquishit, it would be quite difficult to do a 'better' job of it than stroustrup did.
18:27 asciilifeform the man carries moar of the responsibility for microshit ecosystem than prolly any other single malignant shit alive.
18:28 asciilifeform ( naggum had the observation, went like 'brokenness of unix is the brokenness of c , of winblows -- of c++ '
18:28 asciilifeform )
18:29 asciilifeform shitoshi's horror is an archaetypical example.
18:29 asciilifeform 'how much memory this uses' 'this q is turing-complete, try asking something else'
18:30 asciilifeform 'aah you put something in a hash table, why now surprised that it uses half a meg each time, dontchaknow it has to rebalance red-black'
18:31 asciilifeform 'you concated two strings, of course this uses unbounded heap space and frags'
18:31 asciilifeform 'this proggy is faux-multithreaded, so of fuckingcourse there's a lock around erry variable toggle'
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18:31 asciilifeform etc.
18:32 asciilifeform the eulora folx can prolly add to this kunstkammer
18:34 Mocky good times... "fun never ends"
18:41 Mocky gotta earn that gray beard
18:42 mircea_popescu asciilifeform s. strikes as exactly the sort of fellow who;d be trying "the same thing" in the vein of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841629
18:42 a111 Logged on 2018-08-14 21:11 mircea_popescu: the necessary correlate to "no, you can't have your lunch and eat it too, just as you couldn't when you asked me earlier, and just as you won't later on", ie, "you won't get the answer you wish to hear no matter how many times you ask", ie, immutably in front of idiocy -- there's not that much to lose, not really, out of public conversation.
18:43 asciilifeform afaik he has never done anything else.
18:44 mircea_popescu it's readily suspicious, when the following elements meet : a) a new set is promoted that includes some of the elements of the previous set but b) there's no discussion of why exactly some were left out, in substantial terms of what was wrong with them that reach all the way to the root and c) the author is apparently unaware that the a-b combo is the principal signal of idiocy.
18:44 asciilifeform observe how the unix folx, richie & thompson, also proceeded similarly, doubled down on the 'unix philosophy' in e.g. 'inferno'
18:44 mircea_popescu somehow the idiocy of democracy, "we have a new senate" "what was wrong with the old one ?" "huh ?" is supposed to steal our wits with the eyes attached, and leave us believing that "this is how it goes" or something ?
18:45 asciilifeform 'we built straw bomber, it did not fly, gotta build bigger! one'
18:46 mircea_popescu ~why~ did it have to change, and ~why~ was it there in the first place then. these gotta be addressed, wtf pseudo-rational process is this.
18:46 asciilifeform there is no indication that there ever ~had been~ a 'why'. d00d designs like child picks his nose.
18:46 asciilifeform 'because can'
18:47 mircea_popescu there's nothing wrong with this, incidentally. exploration is exploration. "we're trying things out, go away" is a perfectly legitimate state of affairs.
18:47 mircea_popescu argument could even be brought "and then, idiots went and wrote linux in it".
18:47 asciilifeform 1980s included plenty of examples of disastrous enthronement of 'this is experiment, go away' to 'industry captains'(tm)
18:48 asciilifeform without an intermediate sanity filter
18:48 mircea_popescu except this, perfectly available, intellectual stance -- very much not stroustrup
18:48 asciilifeform experiment , on intellectual honesty planet, includes discussion of result .
18:48 mircea_popescu asciilifeform 2010s, too. bitcoin, amirite.
18:48 asciilifeform and admission of failures.
18:49 asciilifeform cpp added up to ~30+ yrs of utter disaster.
18:57 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-14#1841669 << eulora client has a lot of this. you know it uses 5 threads ? of which 4 do nothing ?
18:57 a111 Logged on 2018-08-14 22:31 asciilifeform: 'this proggy is faux-multithreaded, so of fuckingcourse there's a lock around erry variable toggle'
18:57 mircea_popescu 5, specifically.
18:57 asciilifeform lol exactly like trb?!
18:57 mircea_popescu the usual "why magic number ?" question goes doubly so for thread counts -- if your program has a fixed thread count it's not multi-threaded, it's badly written.
18:57 mircea_popescu asciilifeform aha. same school
18:58 Mocky asciilifeform, 'inferno' is this? >> http://btcbase.org/log/2015-02-25#1032830
18:58 a111 Logged on 2015-02-25 01:37 asciilifeform: while hunting for marvell errata sheets, found http://code.google.com/p/inferno-kirkwood/source/browse/devsata.c - driver for same, written for bell labs's 'inferno' os (interesting animal all in itself, see old thread) - contains some clues re: reset behaviour
18:58 mircea_popescu (yes, i'm using this to raise the army that'll surgerize trb, of course, of course)
18:58 asciilifeform Mocky: yes it
19:04 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-08#1832784 << let's flesh this out a little, while at it. podophyllotoxin, active ingredient in mandrake root, is not only toxic but actually damages dna (ties the strand to topoisomerase, and prevents religation). this happens to be useful in some medical contexts (neoplasm management, basically). enter etoposide and teniposide, one with a methyl the other with a thienyl. otherwise, same item.
19:04 a111 Logged on 2018-07-08 00:29 asciilifeform: 'why is this methyl group here' '...patent'
19:04 mircea_popescu functionally identical, actually.
19:04 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the yew thing, similar
19:04 asciilifeform plenty of these.
19:04 mircea_popescu aha.
19:15 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: threading in trb is exactly variant of ye olde http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-21#1379603 -- it's there because idjit had nfi how to do nonblocking i/o
19:15 a111 Logged on 2016-01-21 13:29 asciilifeform: 'if i make it what i think is the right size, it crashes!111'
19:15 asciilifeform ( granted , in unixland it aint easy, and in winblowz planet -- ~impossible )
19:16 asciilifeform result, naturally, is ~still~ blocking i/o, but proggy... pretends to run while blocked
19:16 asciilifeform ( hence 'blackhole' etc )
~ 24 minutes ~
19:41 mircea_popescu myeah
19:42 mircea_popescu theres a whole lot of that in eulora as well. and in ~all cpp-gui offerings past 20 yearsd
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