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06:58	jurov	http://imgur.com/a/KSjaJ
06:58	jurov	"Masha Market - Everything for health - Tea, Vodka, Books"
		~ 1 hours 11 minutes ~
08:10	thestringpuller	"I've noticed a trend with these guys. They're too dumb to even know they are clowns. Well I guess they're focused on the present and not the future. Money counts for these guys. He's nothing but a banker selling btc." and has reply >> "Dunning–Kruger effect" It's odd reading comments like that on reddit.
08:10	thestringpuller	https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4tj82o/hes_back_with_stupid_tweets_now_comparing_the/d5hrewa << for those wanting to follow the brain damage.
08:16	thestringpuller	Also they are nailing the doors shut on Ether tomorrow until "clear winner": "As a Poloniex customer, you do not need to do anything. The migration will occur automatically, and your full balance of Ethereum will be transferred to the winning chain. Keep in mind that as we near the fork, we will be temporarily disabling deposits and withdrawals in preparation for the migration process. Trading will continue to operate as normal during
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08:17	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-17#1504193 << there is no $ideology per se ; tmsr is principally characterized by lack of ideology. everyone else has one, however, and they're often patently insane and amazingly complex.
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08:17	mircea_popescu	(take for instance the "independent" demo as described in http://trilema.com/2016/please-stop-using-dns-already-and-other-considerations/#footnote_6_65060 and more generally by Ballas. it's well over 100k loi, most of which are involved with covering up the fact that there's any ideology at work in the first place)
08:18	mircea_popescu	so the way deculturation works is, derp comes to tmsr, makes statements, which belie assumptions, which are explicitly stated BY someone in tmsr for the first time in derp's experience, and then rejected explicitly. sometimes a cause is presented, but this is not particularly "better" than none being offered. the burden is on the derp ANYWAY.
08:18	mircea_popescu	obviously, most derps are, owing to fundamental genetic insufficiency, unable to handle the plain statement of their assumptions. these, we call cattle.
08:19	mircea_popescu	a few of them, recently called the "hopefuls" but otherwise simply the incarnation of evil, are capable of handling the statement of their assumptions, but are unwilling to separate themselves from what "they want", which is usually stupid but that's not something they're prepared to face.
08:20	mircea_popescu	this is always and everywhere personal failure, sometimes a forced mistake (like the female's universal "wanting kids to survive", which is stupid but nevertheless part of her ample array of genital curses)
08:20	mircea_popescu	something that may appear as a subcase but i believe is not (not that the dispute is all that relevant) and in any case is more numerous is the jwz : the fellow that "just wants to" keep right on being lazy.
08:21	mircea_popescu	laziness is a natural want, and unavoidable. (no, wanting your children to survive is not natural, but perverse, and a major part of what makes kant's timber crooked.)
08:23	mircea_popescu	so to sum up, the process is more like washing than anything else. gunk removal.
08:24	mircea_popescu	thestringpuller and if there's two chains surviving, customer gets one poloniex gets to keep the other ?
08:25	mircea_popescu	not that it's much of a concern, there's exactly ONE customer doing eth on poloniex. but as a theoretical thing.
08:35	thestringpuller	mircea_popescu: "In addition, for those interested in keeping their tokens from the losing blockchain as a keepsake, we will support a one-time withdrawal of the deprecated tokens, provided that the losing chain is still functional when you attempt a withdrawal. Specific instructions on how to access your tokens on the old chain to follow."
08:35	thestringpuller	If shit really hits the fan with the hardfork, the doors are nailed shut indefinitely.
08:36	thestringpuller	Its like setting off a nuke to kill a mouse...
08:40	thestringpuller	shinohai: they added steem to poloniex. shit is bubbling. i wish there was enough liquidity to go short. this is the ultimate bubble.
		~ 40 minutes ~
09:21	asciilifeform	l0gz dead
09:34	jurov	logs were prolly decultured
09:43	mircea_popescu	thestringpuller ah i cv
09:43	mircea_popescu	o darn there's no...
09:43	*	mircea_popescu sees in the scrollback that the fact of there being no log has already been mentioned :D
09:45	mircea_popescu	anyway, the code || ideology parallel should be pretty obvious. yes people run other [from their wot] people's text, but this is neither obligatory nor particularly encouraged. on the contrary, with ideology as with code as with "wot maintenance best practices" and as with any other text, heterogeny is the key to victory.
09:56	mircea_popescu	unrelatedly, since i apparently fell in a barrel of reading old history, fellow describing "the cruelty" of mehmed 2 : "for some books stolen from his secretary he punished an entire village to be moved to asia ; for a stolen watermelon he took the life of a suspected janissary, and he did not back down from killing with his own hand the most adored being in the harem, who had shackled him with her exceptional beauty to the p
09:56	mircea_popescu	oint of forgetting his duties as head of state."
09:56	mircea_popescu	this item is not found in anglo historiography apparently.
10:01	asciilifeform	hey, ibrahim drowned whole fucking harem
10:01	mircea_popescu	yeah well.
10:02	mircea_popescu	but the principle of the thing. "if you love her set her free" apparently means something else in ottoman turkish.
10:02	asciilifeform	i bet he saw it as little different from modern bloke throwing out his pack of cigs 'tryin' to quit'
10:02	*	mircea_popescu would have simply sold the girl, but then again /me is no turk.
10:02	mircea_popescu	i bet he did.
10:03	asciilifeform	iirc they never, for some reason, surplussed the gurlz
10:03	shinohai	Logged 7-19-2016 08:39 +thestringpuller shinohai: they added steem to poloniex. shit is bubbling. i wish there was enough liquidity to go short. this is the ultimate bubble. <<<only teh American exchanges I see
10:03	mircea_popescu	you should read the poetry of the time, they were pretty drunk on a sort of adolescent male idealism perhaps best rendered as sportsfan-hiphop in today's terms.
10:03	asciilifeform	always parked them in this old-palace-jail thing
10:04	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform and yet they gave the nobles caftans, ie, "here's this holy piece of clothing, worth so much more than the fabric and cut to you because i'm giving it"
10:04	mircea_popescu	it makes sense to give out the girls also, neh ?
10:04	mircea_popescu	with a little training they'll be more of a tool of state than the dubious religion
10:04	asciilifeform	culture is the set of arbitrary window dressing that dun make sense.
10:04	asciilifeform	all else is engineering.
10:04	mircea_popescu	(mehmed, like most other sultans, was a bit of an atheist)
10:05	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform not so. culture makes more sense, on average, than any bit of engineering.
10:05	asciilifeform	at the core is a buncha very arbitrary jumper settings.
10:05	asciilifeform	i.e., the item above.
10:05	mircea_popescu	it doesn't ~work~, but that's a very different story.
10:05	asciilifeform	why not gurlz? no reason.
10:06	asciilifeform	just the way we set them jumpers.
10:06	mircea_popescu	mno, there usually is a reason.
10:06	mircea_popescu	just, takes some study.
10:06	asciilifeform	for some reason my first thought is 'furby'
10:06	asciilifeform	there was a toy, 'furby', sorta a stuffed devil, that would randomly memorize bits of speech heard from microphone
10:07	asciilifeform	and parrot it back in a jumbled cacophony
10:07	asciilifeform	they were forbidden in usg enclaves almost immediately
10:07	asciilifeform	for the same reason as parrot.
10:07	asciilifeform	possibly the 'no surplus chix!' thing has similar root causes.
10:07	mircea_popescu	the basic, and really only, rule of hermeneutics is : that then you've understood a text when, far from its shortcomings appearing inexplicable errors, they become the actual pillars upon which the damned thing is constructed, and what originally seemed to you sensible and structural takes its true place as accidental.
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10:08	mircea_popescu	there is such a thing as "why is e < 3??" "no reason" in nature, and from there in engineering. there isn't really such a thing in society, and from there in culture.
10:09	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform except who did any political business among the baths and wet tits ?! not really how it worked ; presuming the girl's not accepted back in... which is perhaps where the rub is.
10:20	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform here, beyazit ordered paintings made for his father by bellini (sent from venice at sultan's request) sold in the bazaar and enough with this dumb shit.
10:20	mircea_popescu	truly odd this theory, that they'd sell the paintings but not the girls.
		~ 20 minutes ~
10:41	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: iirc the occasional harem washout was married off to a pasha
10:41	asciilifeform	so they weren't wholly disposable.
		~ 26 minutes ~
11:08	shinohai	;;bc,stats
11:08	gribble	Current Blocks: 421426 | Current Difficulty: 2.1349250110751337E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 423359 | Next Difficulty In: 1933 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 weeks, 0 days, 12 hours, 48 minutes, and 43 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
11:18	shinohai	yay! logz
11:26	mircea_popescu	$up webbyz
11:26	deedbot	webbyz voiced for 30 minutes.
11:26	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: orlov has an interesting pill for mircea_popescu's 'if yer boat has a hole, you gotta drydock it and now you're out $maxint' >> http://quidnon.blogspot.com/2016/07/on-women-boats-and-plumbing.html
11:27	asciilifeform	(for the impatient, last section, grep for 'blow the tanks')
11:27	webbyz	$up iKant
11:27	deedbot	webbyz may not $up iKant
11:27	mircea_popescu	$up iKant
11:27	deedbot	iKant voiced for 30 minutes.
11:28	webbyz	$up deedbot
11:28	deedbot	webbyz may not $up deedbot
11:28	*	mircea_popescu never likes the results, but perseveres reading orlov linked material.
11:28	webbyz	go $up yourself
11:30	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i dunno about his nonsense. every (admittedly, large, expensive) boat i've been in had detachable pannels. you first take the shit OFF, then fuck with the pipes gauges etc in the normal manner. yes it takes 3x as long as if you were doing house plumbing, but that's about it.
11:30	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu's boats were pleasure boats for rich folk.
11:30	asciilifeform	not houses for orlov.
11:30	mircea_popescu	~townhouse on water, so to speak.
11:31	asciilifeform	'quidnon' is orlov's crackpot design, it will, he wrote, be published as plans on www, and sold as diy kit.
11:31	asciilifeform	has a number of unusual design features for self-sufficiency (flotation arch for uncapsizing, sub-style water tanks for emergency buoyancy, as described in linked piece, etc)
11:32	mircea_popescu	tbh i think it may rather be a matter of agwe
11:32	asciilifeform	what's agwe ?
11:32	mircea_popescu	engineering took a sharp turn to sanity sometime in the 80s wrt to this sort of "vacuum spherical chicken" issue.
11:32	mircea_popescu	age*
11:33	asciilifeform	hm?
11:34	mircea_popescu	to quote : "Boat plumbing systems are virtually never designed with ease of maintenance in mind; mostly they are an afterthought, not so much engineered as crammed together in any space that’s available. A very common problem is that working on them requires the use of tools—screwdrivers, channel locks, sockets with ratchets—but there is no room to wield these tools in the normal manner, and just about every operation r
11:34	mircea_popescu	equires one to become a contortionist. Another common problem is lack of space for both the arm (with which to work on things) and the head (with which to look at what you are doing), meaning that much of the work has to do be done “by Braille.”
11:34	mircea_popescu	this sounds very much like an item made pre 1980 than post 1990.
11:34	asciilifeform	also size.
11:34	asciilifeform	he sails strictly sailboats, and strictly ones which fit in a standard american slip
11:35	asciilifeform	and lives in them, with wife and son even, and there is not much extra space.
11:36	asciilifeform	from past orlov&boat threads, iirc mircea_popescu sailed titanic diesels.
11:36	asciilifeform	might account for some of the 'wtf' factor.
11:36	mircea_popescu	i also sailed proper sailboats ; which have no plumbing. under discussion here, both from the introduction of the article you quote, and from his "live in boat" general outlook, are pointedly NOT sailboats.
11:36	asciilifeform	an orlovian boat is a machine strictly smaller than a refrigerator truck.
11:37	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: yes but did you attempt to ~live~ in them.
11:37	mircea_popescu	no, because they aren't made for this purpose.
11:37	mircea_popescu	have you attempted to live in computer case ?
11:37	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: all of mr o's materials presume 'live in boat' means sailboat.
11:37	mircea_popescu	i also never attempted to live in my shoes, or judge shoes by how "livable in" they are.
11:37	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform well, that's nonsense, no saving it. fuck, sailboat with plumbing ? wut ?
11:37	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: they are not made for this purpose, but he is attempting to design one which is..
11:39	asciilifeform	and whole point of engineering is to convert 'that's nonsense' into 'grudgingly sense', powered by certain amount of money and elbow grease. consider space capsule.
11:39	asciilifeform	man lives in vacuum? 'nonsense!'
11:39	asciilifeform	but if you must - you can.
11:39	mircea_popescu	see, a sailboat, ie, the thing you run sail and rigging championships etc with ? that thing has no generator, because it's heavy. most have no engine either, except where legally required on occasion, and the presence of engine is disdained universally. etc.
11:40	asciilifeform	imho orlov is making a mistake though - he ought to be designing a submarine.
11:40	mircea_popescu	nuclear one at that.
11:40	asciilifeform	... which cannot capsize, and is difficult to detect for pirate
11:40	asciilifeform	(of either amateur or usgistic variety)
11:41	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: your sailboats, again, are a 'race horse' luxurywank item, not a practical instrument
11:41	mircea_popescu	best i can discern from the unexpected in this latest convo, he's trying to do something that makes no sense for the market, a sort of ostrich-camel of epic proportions.
11:41	mircea_popescu	but w/e, maybe he's special.
11:41	asciilifeform	i am interested in his ostrichcamel.
11:41	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform there is no "practical instrument" that is the unworkable cross between a hammer and a screwdriver.
11:42	mircea_popescu	you may be interested ; but the market for "sailboat" is composed of people who already own say a race horse, or sponsor a speed racing team etc ; they're ready to spend by the million.
11:43	asciilifeform	not this one.
11:43	asciilifeform	this is rather like that ibm fella who wrote 'there is a market for five computers'
11:43	mircea_popescu	meanwhile the market for "boathouse" is composed of people who already own townhouse in large town ; also prepared to spend by the million.
11:43	asciilifeform	in, when was it, '52 ?
11:43	phf	sailboat != boat with sail
11:43	mircea_popescu	phf i have nfi what any of the terms mean as used, for the record. we're in plebeconfusionland.
11:44	asciilifeform	it is quite conceivable that there is item, which is recognizably a computer, but not one of the items for which ibm correctly assessed a market sized 5 units in '52.
11:44	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu's 'sailboat' is a racing yacht. orlov's is a (mostly) wind-powered antisocial survival capsule.
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11:44	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform the ibm example isn't so good. the sort of phenomena that were conquered to produce the 1k chickens 1950-1990 are very fucking different from the sort of phenomena the boat has to encounter,
11:44	asciilifeform	which is why i follow the subj.
11:44	mircea_popescu	and which has not produced any sort of improvement EVER!
11:45	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: plastics happened.
11:45	mircea_popescu	for the record, the hull design style of the vikings STILL IS! to this day! the best, fastest and so on.
11:45	mircea_popescu	plastics ain't that big a deal.
11:45	asciilifeform	even the yacht folks are using fiberglass/epoxy.
11:45	asciilifeform	so yes, deal.
11:46	asciilifeform	a boat is no longer definitionally 10,001 planks.
11:46	mircea_popescu	the improvement plastics and composites (current generation, EXPENSIVE!) offer over selected historical wood is marginal, if at all present.
11:46	mircea_popescu	nothing like the advantage doped silicone offers over old galene/lead whatevers.
11:46	asciilifeform	again the 'expensive' thing is rather like observing that f-16 parts are costly. yes, because golden toilet buyers. compare instead with mig.
11:46	mircea_popescu	people use plastic because cheaper plastic is cheaper than cheap wood, and there better.
11:47	asciilifeform	or better yet, sopwith.
11:47	mircea_popescu	expensive wood is not a case of "hey, x team can never win, cedar lol"
11:48	asciilifeform	iirc no one ever even ~tried~ the 'optimize for cost, survival boat' design prior.
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11:48	asciilifeform	i suspect that mircea_popescu pisses on 'quidnon' for reasons which have nothing to do with hydrodynamics or metallurgy
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11:48	phf	nah, there was that other guy who built a computerized nomadic boat house (i think he started with a computerized recumbent bike in the 80s) and unlike orlol he actually documented his process very extensively
11:49	asciilifeform	but rather that he is revolted by the concept of antisocial capsule per se
11:49	trinque	sounds like resigning to die, but then not having the dignity to eat the bullet
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11:49	asciilifeform	phf: what was 'boat house' in context ? afaik the phrase usually refers to a fragile river barge thing, rather than machine to survive north atlantic
11:49	phf	asciilifeform: the latter
11:50	phf	http://microship.com/
11:50	asciilifeform	phf: interesting
11:50	asciilifeform	phf: ok not so interesting. it's a giant diesel thing
11:50	asciilifeform	full of $maxint tech
11:50	phf	well, it has both sail and diesel
11:51	asciilifeform	about as practical, for a non-mircea_popescu, as a space station, to own.
11:51	phf	and the problem he was trying to solve is a lot closer to what you want to achieve, i.e. put lab on water, rather than recreate the lifestyle of late 6th century pirate nomads or whatever
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11:51	phf	with corresponding required capital investment
11:52	trinque	if you've reached the point where the world has beaten you back to being willing to live in a shipping container, why live?
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11:52	trinque	this guy's got a lab, what, to continue taking part in the same world he can't stand?
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11:53	phf	trinque: wut
11:53	trinque	exactly what I said.
11:53	thestringpuller	trinque: http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-KU141_blackl_G_20151015224318.jpg << not if your shipping container looks like this on the inside
11:53	asciilifeform	trinque: there is a great deal to be said for living in a shipping container
11:54	asciilifeform	i would happily move into one RIGHT NOW if it meant that i could start accumulating escape money..
11:54	phf	trinque: it's techno nomad, it's a thing. microship guy doesn't really try to solve same problem as orlol, it's all different people with personal interests and agendas that don't necessarily compose into a single stereotype
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11:54	asciilifeform	so long as it were a container AT SEA and not in a bum park
11:54	asciilifeform	AWAY FROM PEOPLE
11:54	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505505 << this is a ridiculous notion ; for one thing, polynesia got colonized prior to the age of sail.
11:54	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 15:48 asciilifeform: iirc no one ever even ~tried~ the 'optimize for cost, survival boat' design prior.
11:54	asciilifeform	no one in industrial age. fine.
11:55	asciilifeform	may as well bring up crashed pilots building rafts, optimizing for cost..
11:55	mircea_popescu	far be itfrom me to insult your boyish dream of independence ; but let it be said that boats are boats and have been so for a long time now.
11:55	asciilifeform	and arithmetic is arithmetic and what is this steam computer nonsense.
11:55	asciilifeform	long division will be same forever!111
11:55	mircea_popescu	for that matter, recorded performance in both the time of venice owning the mediteranean and of portuguese empire in south china sea is not currently met by "performant" plastic boats.
11:55	asciilifeform	foolish dreams of mechanical arithmetizers notwithstanding!11
11:56	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform look, there's nothing wrong with this principle in principle, but electric performance and hydrodynamic performance are not the same thing
11:56	mircea_popescu	look at tables of materials, comparing say young modulus and resistivity.
11:56	mircea_popescu	different phenomena, with the former much narrower for good physical reasons.
11:57	mircea_popescu	yes, wood makes a very poor cpu ; lead sulphide better ; silicone-germanium mix even better.
11:57	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: consider pykrete.
11:57	mircea_popescu	yet! wood makes fine boat ; some plastics cheaper, some composites somewhat better much more expensive. that's it.
11:57	mircea_popescu	what of pykrete ?
11:57	asciilifeform	it is a qualitative jump, in cost AND repairability, and i have nfi why orlov ignored it.
11:57	mircea_popescu	it isn't, no.
11:58	asciilifeform	eh you get a hull for so long as you can score a few kg of sawdust every month.
11:58	asciilifeform	this imho is a win.
11:58	mircea_popescu	it just seems so, until and unless you try to ... you know, emplace a cannon on it. "shit, it slides!!"
11:58	asciilifeform	ah no.
11:58	mircea_popescu	ah well then.
11:58	asciilifeform	there was a test vessel, worked great.
11:58	asciilifeform	no slide.
11:58	trinque	phf: there's a contradiction in someone that just wants to techmology, doesn't want to have to talk to anyone. Technology is a social enterprise; if social conditions are that bad, there are problems more fundamental than "can't have real computer" and such.
11:58	asciilifeform	you can anchor bolts in it, like in cement.
11:58	asciilifeform	and it surfaces ok.
11:58	asciilifeform	trinque: 'talk to anyone' i am happy to do. but a SELECTABLE 'anyone'.
11:59	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform you can calculate the energy cannon firings release per firing. that goes into melting your platform.
11:59	asciilifeform	pointedly not 'neighbours in trailer park'
11:59	trinque	asciilifeform: you can select now
11:59	phf	trinque: you're making assumptions about these other people from what asciilifeform is saying
11:59	asciilifeform	trinque: i pay the equivalent of a nice car every year for this selection.
11:59	trinque	phf: mostly speaking to that, yes. this guy with the $maxint boat probably spends plenty of time off it too
12:00	asciilifeform	trinque: i would prefer to select simply by moving my house into international water and submerging.
12:00	phf	even orlol made a point a few times that he boats not because end of world, but because it's in his nomadic nature. that's distinctly not what asciilifeform is trying to do
12:00	trinque	could make sense. I'm a city creature.
12:01	asciilifeform	actually orlov did at one point say that he would be happy to live in a land truck but it is too easily accessible by enemies
12:01	phf	trinque: like this picture is more representative http://microship.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Move-House-bike-tent-1024x710.jpg :>
12:01	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505489 << it is a very naive view to "Antisocial" that you will ... find a daddy to enforce the limits for you. God ocean has better shit to do, just like yahveh has better shit to do.
12:01	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 15:44 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's 'sailboat' is a racing yacht. orlov's is a (mostly) wind-powered antisocial survival capsule.
12:01	mircea_popescu	this is in no substantial way different from the "Reisistance through culture" of the soviet "intellectuals" aka schmucks.
12:01	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu simply doesn't grok the depth of asciilifeform's misanthropy.
12:01	mircea_popescu	no, has nothing to do with you. we're discussing boats not your person hiar.
12:02	asciilifeform	that was simply answer to 'why interest in subj'
12:02	mircea_popescu	no matter how sad you are, hair's not gonna jump off the scissors and back on your head ; no matter how emo you are, ocean still won't suddenly become a space allocator working as you want it to.
12:02	asciilifeform	this however is an engineering question
12:02	mircea_popescu	not really, no.
12:02	asciilifeform	just as 'can man live on mars' is.
12:03	mircea_popescu	"can man live on mars" is engineering question ; "can man live on mars to escape lost love" is not.
12:03	mircea_popescu	yours is of the later kind.
12:03	asciilifeform	it is a textbook 'cutting apart' item: what does yacht cost if you cut away all of the dirigible crapolade
12:03	asciilifeform	(rare woods, racing optimizations, lack of plumbing, etc)
12:04	phf	i think ascii would benefit best from building Nautilus. spacious, has lab, has pet, mostly as away from humans as possible, can defend itself from government and pirates. an entirely imaginary device
12:04	mircea_popescu	and the answer is that "yacht" only exists in mind of people too poor to have experience with the matter ; and otherwise it's a number of discrete items you're invited to pick amongst.
12:04	mircea_popescu	phf wait, did nemo actually have fucktoy on board ?!
12:05	mircea_popescu	i musta slept through this.
12:05	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: i actually poked nose into the subj, so not entirely innocent of 'yacht is 1,01 types of machine' concept
12:05	phf	well, it was victorian equivalent of fucktoy, mostly just lots of talking and showing off :>
12:05	mircea_popescu	did you poke nose in the sense of actually spending any sort of time on water ?
12:05	asciilifeform	where would i ?
12:05	asciilifeform	i did not spend any time on mars, either
12:05	mircea_popescu	cuz the idea that you'd want to, in preference of, say, prison, is entirely shocking to me.
		↖
12:05	asciilifeform	I HATE PEOPLE
12:05	asciilifeform	this is hard concept ?
12:05	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform prison is right there with monastery. no people.
12:06	asciilifeform	which prison is that ?
12:06	mircea_popescu	phf i have no recolection of this. testament to my interest in female anything aged 12, when i read jules verne.
12:06	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform any serious one. and if they put you in general population, slit a throat or two, you'll get solitary and be happy.
12:07	phf	mircea_popescu: huh, i checked the plot and i was wrong, i was convinced that the protagonist was a lady
12:07	asciilifeform	'prisoner held incommunicado' is not same as 'i choose when i want to people and when not to'
12:07	mircea_popescu	o.O
12:08	mircea_popescu	you flatter yourself as to your choices on the sea.
12:08	mircea_popescu	there's a reason greeks call it the master of things.
12:08	asciilifeform	they did not have subs.
12:08	mircea_popescu	only land lubber could conceivably have this notion of the sea, as a sort of commodified milk in carton in fridge.
12:08	mircea_popescu	it ain't.
12:08	asciilifeform	which laugh at storms and rocks.
12:08	mircea_popescu	the greeks ? ironically, thye did ya!
12:09	asciilifeform	waiwut
12:09	mircea_popescu	toy subs, like the toy steam engine
12:09	asciilifeform	iirc barrel sub was a 17th c. item.
12:09	asciilifeform	no confirmed examples prior.
12:09	mircea_popescu	afaik 3bc, pearl hunting item
12:09	asciilifeform	diving bell? not sub!
12:09	asciilifeform	omfg
12:09	asciilifeform	go weather a storm in a diving bell.
12:10	mircea_popescu	yawell.
12:10	asciilifeform	and sail back home in it.
12:11	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505506 << what'd they be ?
12:11	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 15:48 asciilifeform: i suspect that mircea_popescu pisses on 'quidnon' for reasons which have nothing to do with hydrodynamics or metallurgy
12:12	asciilifeform	well, this, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505593 etc.
12:12	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 16:05 mircea_popescu: cuz the idea that you'd want to, in preference of, say, prison, is entirely shocking to me.
12:12	mircea_popescu	no, that's an unrelated item.
12:12	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu doesn't even conceptualize the problem i'd like solved as being a problem.
12:12	asciilifeform	he sees it as a 'how can i make green a prime number' or the like.
12:13	mircea_popescu	no, no. on one hand, i see your approach to be fundamentally flawed, for lack of experience. this is a practical consideration. on the other hand, i suspect the flaw may not be accidental, but proceed from psychogenic cause, which is unclear to me.
12:13	asciilifeform	incidentally i see 'quidnon' as a terrible design, and have no expectation that i will ever set foot in one.
12:13	mircea_popescu	wait, that's actually the name of something ?
12:13	asciilifeform	his machine, aha
12:13	mircea_popescu	ah ok.
12:14	mircea_popescu	anyway, it's not a matter of how to make green a prime number. it's more of a matter of "how to make cryptographic rng work from a seed".
12:14	mircea_popescu	there's fundamental breakage underlying this being "conceptualized" as a problem in the first place.
12:14	asciilifeform	i dun see the link.
12:15	asciilifeform	as i picture it, 'orlov's boat' is simply a lower-tech variation of the theme of 'mars dome'
12:15	asciilifeform	which may or may not be possible, but strictly for physical reasons
12:15	mircea_popescu	the theme of "mars dome" is a fiction trope.
12:15	mircea_popescu	hence the obvious connection to the adventures of captain nemo, as retold by verne.
12:16	asciilifeform	there is a distinction between the ~physically~ and ~economically~ impossible machine.
12:16	asciilifeform	the former is a waste of mental cycles
12:16	asciilifeform	the latter - is not necessarily.
12:16	mircea_popescu	if we'll colonize, it'll likely be venus before mars, and it'll likely be through planetary scale atmospheric intervention rather than "domes" wtf be those.
12:16	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: the transport vessel is a special case of 'dome'
12:16	asciilifeform	for this purpose.
12:17	mircea_popescu	fiction may contain the emotions of the author, as a point for his compatriots to fixate on and navigate what otherwise is endless, meaningless, the sea of representation.
12:17	mircea_popescu	technology doth not flow this way.
12:17	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform the transport vessel is a case of dome much in the way spontaneous healing of aids is a case of divine grace.
12:17	mircea_popescu	sure, if you want it to.
12:17	asciilifeform	in the abstract sense of 'box in which i can weld myself in and survive for Y years'
12:18	asciilifeform	against vacuum, meteorites
12:18	mircea_popescu	this isn't really how transport vessels work, except for a subset of young males.
12:18	asciilifeform	let's take a living example, the nuke sub
12:18	mircea_popescu	ok.
12:19	asciilifeform	patrol is about 3 mo. long, for largely psychiatric reasons (they COULD store moar phood, but do not)
12:19	asciilifeform	overhaul is a ~yearly thing.
12:19	asciilifeform	(iirc)
12:19	mircea_popescu	see ?
12:19	mircea_popescu	you got your answer right htere.
12:19	asciilifeform	so next question is, can improve this ?
12:19	asciilifeform	how much of the $maxint machine do you ~need~ if you don't need to launch nukes ? etc
12:19	mircea_popescu	the nuke sub is exactly an item with no utility or human interest, built under the PRETEXT of a "nuclear war", which is another fiction trope with not much real anchorage (as discussed in some trilema article).
12:19	mircea_popescu	upon practice, it turns out that... people dun wanna be there.
12:20	mircea_popescu	which is why my q re prison.
12:20	asciilifeform	people dun wanna be in a tank either.
12:20	mircea_popescu	"but i do" ?
12:20	asciilifeform	as a boy i very much wanted to.
12:20	mircea_popescu	hence my point.
12:20	mircea_popescu	go, sail a little, get teh gargauni out ?
12:21	mircea_popescu	you wouldn't want TO LIVE IN YOUR FUCKING CAR, communitng forever for the rest of your life, yes ?
12:21	asciilifeform	not that i couldn't arrange it, but that it would not be accurate picture of ~purpose-designed~ capsule
12:21	mircea_popescu	EVEN IF i fucking armored it and added a thermoplonjon thing.
12:21	asciilifeform	i would happily live in a truck if the truck could be teleported into a parallel space with 0 people by push of a button.
		↖
12:21	asciilifeform	(yes this is not what you get in a boat, but it is a kind of mathematical ideal)
12:22	mircea_popescu	alternatively, "accepta-l pe gusti in viata ta"
12:22	mircea_popescu	you know that one ?
12:22	asciilifeform	nein
12:22	mircea_popescu	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ql0xDyJuZU <<
12:23	mircea_popescu	(they're lost in space, the histrion takes a shit, which flies towards the foil ; "accept Gusti in your life!")
12:23	asciilifeform	i must confess, this is a hard nut
12:24	mircea_popescu	"i swear it came out by itself! i didn't even push! it has a mind of its own! let's call him gusti!"
12:24	asciilifeform	still not obvious, perhaps i'm thick
12:25	mircea_popescu	"look how it leaves... like a child his house.... go gusti! follow your dreams! you too could, one day, be president!"
12:25	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform women shit shits into the world, which follow their dreams and could one day be president. accept gusti in your life!
12:28	asciilifeform	is this simply variation on familiar mircea_popescu program 'i am demigod and if somebody has a motivation i don't grasp, they are inconsequential sea slug and stfu' ?
12:28	mircea_popescu	well, i suppose it could be.
12:28	asciilifeform	fair'nuff.
12:29	mircea_popescu	but to my eyes, it;s more a case of "i want impossible item" "why ?" "because of strange notion" "Wouldn't it be cheaper to..." "fu demigod, it is true humanity to do the impossible ; takes demigod to accept the obvious!"
12:29	mircea_popescu	which is not necessarily a mistaken view.
12:30	asciilifeform	the last time we had this thread we got a, imho, more interesting mircea_popescuine: 'boat is wrong problem because you are trying to make being poor and powerless work, if yer poor yer job is to die'
12:30	mircea_popescu	i'm not entirely sure this is that different from that.
12:31	asciilifeform	well it was a philosophical rather than technical counter.
12:31	asciilifeform	'no, mr bond, we expect you to die!111'
12:31	mircea_popescu	there was a technical counter there, as here ; it was abandoned upon your surrender. what was left were there as here "philosophical" let's say items, which lacking any proper substance can continue indefinitely.
12:32	asciilifeform	i see the hypothetical machine as a pill against 'if yer poor you gotta live near other poor folks'
12:32	mircea_popescu	(proper there meaning "of its own" not "correct")
12:32	asciilifeform	which is the fundamental problem with live-in trucks etc.
12:33	mircea_popescu	why do you think it is a fundamental problem with only SOME things is beyond me.
12:33	mircea_popescu	seems more wilful self-hypnosis than anything.
12:33	asciilifeform	elaborate plox?
12:33	mircea_popescu	if you're poor your only hope of survival is the swarm. this is a point of fact, and why peasants and hunters flocked to town to be poor there.
12:33	mircea_popescu	this is the definition of poverty, nude and rude : incapable of surviving on own.
12:34	asciilifeform	not how american push west worked.
12:34	mircea_popescu	quite how it worked, yes.
12:34	asciilifeform	plenty of 'poor and we will live four days' journey from the next poor'
12:34	mircea_popescu	demographically, rather than as a work of fiction, the push west was a push towards the highly concentrated san francisco.
12:34	asciilifeform	granted these were households, with plenty of disposable human torpedoes, not lone wolf. but still.
12:35	mircea_popescu	"still" ? what fucking still!
12:35	mircea_popescu	do we revisit the egyptian household thread from last week ?
12:36	asciilifeform	egyptian swarm is great for the mass of humanity. folks with 0 theorems.
12:36	mircea_popescu	i guess ima have to dig the link now.
12:36	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-03#1495888
12:36	a111	Logged on 2016-07-03 17:48 mircea_popescu: there's ONE thing the middle eastern guy has that white man can't replicate, and that is, a stable, and here i kid you not, a stable, of dozen+ pliable obedient females WITH offspring.
12:36	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-03#1495878
12:36	a111	Logged on 2016-07-03 17:44 mircea_popescu: for the anthropologist, god damned fascinating, they're like a family-sized snail building its conch.
12:36	mircea_popescu	aha
12:37	asciilifeform	no denying that it is a powerful thing.
12:37	mircea_popescu	but you just denied
12:37	asciilifeform	question is, folks who dun have it, or dun want it, ought to eat their pistol immediately ? or there are other ways to live.
12:37	mircea_popescu	you said "but still". that's denial. and worse - a disawoved denial.
12:37	mircea_popescu	of such substance sufferance is always made.
12:38	asciilifeform	well then let's concretize: no, i personally have 0 interest in being part of a mormon family. and yes, it means i live until first broken leg. maybe this is acceptable tradeoff from my pov.
12:38	mircea_popescu	oregon trail consisted of ? man and woman and grown children and the grown women's boyfriends and and and and a dog@!
12:39	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform if it is or if it isn't is your choice to make ; but don't go around showing me your holy amulets that prevent leg breaking.
12:39	asciilifeform	no amulet.
12:39	asciilifeform	but the question of 'how long can last' is an engineering question.
12:39	asciilifeform	not philosophical.
12:39	mircea_popescu	"quinine" or we it was called
12:39	asciilifeform	lel
12:40	mircea_popescu	myeah.
12:41	asciilifeform	this was my sole objection to mircea_popescu's position - he mixes technical (you can NEVER make this machine work economically) with philosophical (trying to ~formulate~, not to mention ~solve~, this problem is MADNESS!111) objection.
12:41	asciilifeform	and quite likely mircea_popescu is right re the technical side.
12:41	asciilifeform	but i say they are worth considering separately.
12:42	asciilifeform	because technical breakthroughs occasionally do happen.
12:42	mircea_popescu	i don't think trying to formulate it is madness ; i do think that the orlov formulation is ridiculous at best.
12:42	asciilifeform	if anything, he is blinded by... his experience aboard actual boats!
12:43	mircea_popescu	actually, further - i think that attempts to solve it on those lines will cost the attempter his life and sanity for no benefit. in other words - i say orlov is a scammer.
12:43	asciilifeform	just as differential engine was not built by an arithmetizer-girl.
12:43	asciilifeform	shouldn't a scammer have some money on occasion ?
12:43	asciilifeform	'charlatan' is perhaps better adj ?
12:43	mircea_popescu	i'm not directing this at him. he is whatever, i dun care. but from YOUR perspective, he works practically as a scammer. you know how donner party ended up in the spot where they ate each other ?
12:44	asciilifeform	aha.
12:44	mircea_popescu	they followed the guidance of some derp. that derp.
12:44	mircea_popescu	and yes, the derp was broadly correct, itwas "in that general direction" and so forth. but omfg patch of salt!
12:45	asciilifeform	so what would a sane approach to 'i wish to live with the company of other bipeds being wholly SELECTABLE', if not boat ? or mircea_popescu sees entire question as nuttery.
12:45	mircea_popescu	money.
12:45	asciilifeform	money is involved in any case: boat isn't free
12:45	mircea_popescu	this is ~the only function of money.
12:46	asciilifeform	but what is the minimal money necessary? and what to build with it ?
12:46	asciilifeform	if answer is 'large egyptian family', not interested.
12:46	asciilifeform	it doesn't solve the problem !
12:47	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform asking "What is the minimal money necessary" is like asking "what is the minimum current draw of useful appliance". it depends neh ? for the money orlov already spent on his pretense (boat, authorship, whatever), egyptian native could have lived entire life happily in the circumstance of "the company of other bipeds being wholly SELECTABLE".
12:47	mircea_popescu	i say this on the basis of actual experience, not as a matter of "i imagine boats sometime when i'm frustrated"
12:47	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu must have very different notion of 'selectable' if it has room for an orc anthill
12:47	mircea_popescu	you have nfi what egypt is!
12:47	mircea_popescu	it sits atop a desert.
12:48	*	asciilifeform owns a map...
12:48	*	mircea_popescu visited sufi, was admitted, first person to be admitted in ~decade.
12:49	*	mircea_popescu also visited coptic monastery ; we were the first visitors since summer.
12:50	asciilifeform	^ now this, interesting!
12:50	asciilifeform	are they all dead today /
12:50	asciilifeform	?
12:50	mircea_popescu	i have no way to know.
12:50	asciilifeform	i suppose it would not be high quality monastery if we had a way to know...
12:50	mircea_popescu	they were not on any map ; owing perhaps to the happenstance egyptians generally dunno wtf map is, but perhaps not just.
12:51	asciilifeform	incidentally monasteries are a weaker, land-based special case of the thing i am interested in.
12:51	mircea_popescu	anyway, also visited (danish iirc ?) archeological camp, abandoned since 1986.
12:51	mircea_popescu	there's tons of these. you could go live in a fucking tomb and probably die of natural causes before they'd even find out.
12:51	mircea_popescu	the cairo museum is overflowing with items stacked 5 deep.
12:51	mircea_popescu	etc etc.
12:53	asciilifeform	if you run a genset near that tomb, quite likely someone will take an interest at some point, no ?
12:53	mircea_popescu	not likely.
12:53	mircea_popescu	but the sand will cover your intake.
12:53	asciilifeform	yes, if you want to live like a bear, in a hole, it can even be done in a u.s. national park. people have.
12:53	asciilifeform	(iirc record holder was: ~35 years!)
12:53	mircea_popescu	$s man can live and never be found
12:53	a111	1 results for "man can live and never be found", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=man%20can%20live%20and%20never%20be%20found
12:53	asciilifeform	but even he was eventually spotted by tourists - plume of smoke.
12:54	mircea_popescu	hence it comes down to money. not random amulet, be it boat, dome or kryptonite.
12:54	mircea_popescu	money and that's it.
12:54	asciilifeform	this begs the question. yes, you need money. just as you need rocket to get to mars. but ~how much~ and what vector.
		↖
12:54	mircea_popescu	and understand - this is the fundamental boyishness here. "father, how should i be a powerful lord ?" "have many friends" "i'll just build a strong castle"
12:55	asciilifeform	naturally 'powerful lord' immediately botches the question
12:55	mircea_popescu	heh.
12:55	asciilifeform	the actual question is 'how do i be left alone'
12:55	asciilifeform	not 'be powerful lord'
12:55	mircea_popescu	the only definition of "powerful lord" is "he who can exclude others".
12:55	asciilifeform	'be powerful' is not an answer, it is an answer to a different problem.
12:55	mircea_popescu	there is EXACTLY no other ; and the main issue of the war of troy was, "who the fuck does agamemnon think he is!"
12:56	mircea_popescu	a change from, "who the fuck does this priam think he is"
12:56	asciilifeform	if the problem is posed as 'can i build a castle in which i can successfully stow a stolen princess every time', then yes, answer is 'be powerful'
12:56	asciilifeform	but if more modest constraint ?
12:56	mircea_popescu	the momeny you've defined your aim as "to exclude others", you have therefore and inseparably defined your goal as "i wish to be powerful lord"
12:57	mircea_popescu	and yes, it comes with the gunk - once you are powerful lord for yourself, you gotta also select others for which to be, or else make enemies.
12:57	asciilifeform	actually this is reminiscent of the aerodynamic problem which nailed dirigibles:
12:57	mircea_popescu	so you'll store your apparata ; plus three princesses and some stolen fenders.
12:58	mircea_popescu	or hubcaps or w/e the nigglets steal thgese days.
12:58	asciilifeform	thing is a sail. wind pushes it off course, and also down (crash.) and fuel is exhausted. can try to counter this by building larger engines, but then need bigger lifting envelope, and you get... moar sail.
12:58	asciilifeform	and so on until you're entirely hosed.
12:58	mircea_popescu	aha.
12:58	asciilifeform	so it is not clear that 'be a great king' is optimal solution to 'be left alone'
12:58	asciilifeform	great king attracts great usurpers.
12:58	mircea_popescu	hence my observation that the problem is psychogenic in nature.
12:58	asciilifeform	possibly answer is, be small king.
12:58	asciilifeform	far away.
12:59	mircea_popescu	whenever you end up with a problem which has no real roots, you therefore have a problem which... has no real roots.
12:59	asciilifeform	all problems are ultimately psychogenic.
12:59	mircea_popescu	mno.
12:59	asciilifeform	no man, no problem (tm) (r)
12:59	mircea_popescu	that's a different thing. all non-problems are non-psychogenic.
12:59	mircea_popescu	anyway. problems, like f(x)=some polynomial, either have or don't have real roots.
12:59	mircea_popescu	if they do, are solvable in practice. if they don't, you're advised to fix your head.
13:00	asciilifeform	i agree.
13:00	asciilifeform	but do not see it demonstrated here that problem i posed has 0 roots.
13:00	mircea_popescu	well, what can i tell ya.
13:01	*	asciilifeform pictures remembering this thread one day as the decks are awash and the end nears
13:01	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform> possibly answer is, be small king. far away <<< this is quite lulzy, you know. "i want a center of a circle that's squarer and closer to the margin"
13:02	asciilifeform	hey, recall the sphere thread ?
13:02	mircea_popescu	which ?
13:02	mircea_popescu	we do lots of platonic objects.
13:02	asciilifeform	al schwartz's proof that n-dimensional sphere has more and more of its volume closer and closer to the surface as N approaches infinity
13:03	asciilifeform	the 'extremist solutions' essay
13:03	mircea_popescu	afaik this is 1700s tech but ok.
13:03	mircea_popescu	i dun recall that essay ? do link then.
13:03	asciilifeform	hmm
13:05	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505509 << you familiar with the famous vlad tepes vs mehmed 2 encounter ?
13:05	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 15:49 trinque: sounds like resigning to die, but then not having the dignity to eat the bullet
13:05	asciilifeform	( http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/sphere.htm is all i could find, but the meat of the discussion was in a now-lost usenet post... )
13:05	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: hm ?
13:06	mircea_popescu	you know, sultan ordered "an army as strong as the one which took constantinople" be assembled to deal with this guy once and for all. after not doing so well for a long time eventually cornered him against a mountain, where vlad told his men that neither capture nor death of famine beign fitting of warriors, how about we go into their camp and fucking rape them.
13:07	mircea_popescu	which they famously did.
13:08	mircea_popescu	sultan lost it, ran off, etc.
13:08	asciilifeform	hey, worked for stalin, later.
13:08	asciilifeform	but it makes generous use of everett's device. outside of a few 'sexy' cases, we don't get to hear from the dead armies.
13:09	asciilifeform	who charged into meat grinder to 0 result.
13:09	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505518 << strangely enough, none of the kids playing history (with the abundance their forefathers so imprudently assured them) realise that "hey, things are linked, a boat like this means i gotta sleep with a schmitar under pillow!"
13:09	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 15:51 phf: and the problem he was trying to solve is a lot closer to what you want to achieve, i.e. put lab on water, rather than recreate the lifestyle of late 6th century pirate nomads or whatever
13:09	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform in the man's own words, "he who thinks of death best not follow me"
13:10	asciilifeform	imho we can skip the menschkeit 'everett's device is the only working device' mega-thread, subj is amply worked in the l0gz...
13:10	mircea_popescu	note that i was talking to his thing!
13:10	asciilifeform	lolk
13:12	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505521 << generally people that do labwork "for the world" aren't worth much scientifically ; the ones that do science dun usually care what the wofld does.
13:12	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 15:52 trinque: this guy's got a lab, what, to continue taking part in the same world he can't stand?
13:13	asciilifeform	^ aha. see the 'coffin notebook' thread.
13:13	asciilifeform	many folks dun even lift a finger to publish the goodz.
13:13	asciilifeform	because pearls,swine.etc
13:15	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505527 << depends how high up you scale. to me they do - as stated, people with large inheritance trying to pretend. a sort of niccolo da canal, say.
13:15	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 15:54 phf: trinque: it's techno nomad, it's a thing. microship guy doesn't really try to solve same problem as orlol, it's all different people with personal interests and agendas that don't necessarily compose into a single stereotype
13:16	trinque	mircea_popescu: science is still a matter of conversation with others
13:16	trinque	wasn't saying "for" but "how"
13:16	mircea_popescu	(1469 captain general of venetian navy, no naval experience, guy being a lawyer and orator at papal court. chose to pretend like he knew his shit, cost venice its head eventually.)
13:16	trinque	guy in a monastery still writes letters
13:16	mircea_popescu	surely some do.
13:20	mircea_popescu	depends tho, some parts of science are nonconversational. it's a mixed bag.
13:20	mircea_popescu	perhaps tycho brache / keppler is the best example of this duality.
13:21	mircea_popescu	brache was, famously, so incapable of social intercourse he couldn't leave a banquet and died of a busted bladder.
13:22	asciilifeform	who chopped off his nose, then ?
13:22	asciilifeform	iirc he was a social butterfly, just a somewhat loose cannon while at it
13:27	trinque	I suspect people who can't find *anyone* to tolerate of a sort of gabriel_laddelism, i.e. if I stay up for 48hrs on tab cola I can rewrite gentoo portage fastrrrr
13:27	trinque	but then, asciilifeform could gossipd from his water-tomb I'm sure, so there's that.
13:28	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505780 <<< the answer is also obvious enough. a PERCENTAGE of the total money calculated on the basis of integration. these days, 50%, hence the bitcoin mining process.
13:28	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 16:54 asciilifeform: this begs the question. yes, you need money. just as you need rocket to get to mars. but ~how much~ and what vector.
13:29	mircea_popescu	but the % varies - at the heyday of the empire, during trajan, burebista's 200+ tons of gold were not enough ; centuries later, a few % of that sufficed for an entire dynasty of paleologai
13:29	asciilifeform	picture mircea_popescu were asked to design a bridge. 'just part 50% of the moon's mass right ~here~...'
13:29	asciilifeform	*park
13:29	mircea_popescu	"if my answers scare you, time to stop asking scary questions"
13:30	asciilifeform	it isn't 'scares', but more of the british admiral's answer to 'what shall we do about uboats?' -- 'boil the ocean'
13:30	mircea_popescu	otherwise, in common terms the problem is solved : 4 room floating apt can be had used in good condition for a coupla mil.
13:30	asciilifeform	not esp. interesting from pov of solutions.
13:30	mircea_popescu	work the stoicks a summer, buy boat.
13:30	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: this is like that fella ( mthreat ?) who bought a mig
13:31	asciilifeform	it isn't 'coupla mil', it is 'coupla mil' plus 'own 100 slaves' plus 'lifetime of diesel and $1000 plumbing fittings'
13:32	mircea_popescu	actually he bought a jet not a mig ; it was a few hundred not mil ; and it's not a terribru investment.
13:32	asciilifeform	nor will it be repairable at sea, or survive north atlantic storms.
13:32	mircea_popescu	depends how much he flies it. but good engines, like good everythging - no longe rmade
13:32	asciilifeform	on what planet is it ~investment~ ?
13:32	asciilifeform	sov engines were good for ~200 hours.
13:32	asciilifeform	after that, thrown out.
13:32	mircea_popescu	on the planet where the guy he bought it from paid 15% what it cost in 2014
13:32	asciilifeform	ah as museum piece.
13:32	asciilifeform	then - yes.
13:32	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform yes, but BEFORE those 200 hours.
13:33	asciilifeform	~flying~ the investatron would be nuts.
13:33	mircea_popescu	well yes.
13:33	mircea_popescu	fucking the painting, also.
13:33	asciilifeform	you wouldn't FIRE a 17th c. musket.
13:33	mircea_popescu	or for that matter the 16yo slave girl.
13:34	asciilifeform	so - either investment, or fly. pick.
13:34	mircea_popescu	aha.
13:35	asciilifeform	at any rate, a machine-for-being-comfortably-poor that costs 2mil, if it were to exist, would be a solid answer to my equation. but the diesel pleasure boat is pointedly not it.
13:35	mircea_popescu	anyway ; floating apartment is not much worse for maintenance than car.
13:35	asciilifeform	if you don't live at sea.
13:35	asciilifeform	in port, it is an expensive kind of camper truck, yes.
13:35	mircea_popescu	yeah. in port it's iffier.
13:36	mircea_popescu	"pointedly not it", chiefly because you're trying the oldest trick in the poorfag's book, which is to say to NAME his target according to the conventions of trade, but to secretly expect it to satisfy his metaphysical expectations.
13:36	asciilifeform	incidentally i've learned that many folks in american east coast live in boats, but do it 100% in the marina. as a kind of enforced-whiteness trailer park.
13:36	mircea_popescu	which is why it's always cheaper for merchant to cater to old dutchess than to young upstart wife.
13:36	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: expand ?
13:37	mircea_popescu	it pointedly does everything you openly admit you want ; and fails to do all the things you want but disawov, such as "it should be a grownup for me".
13:37	mircea_popescu	so you know, "pointedly is not".
13:37	asciilifeform	i can spell out the missing piece (thought it was obvious)
13:37	asciilifeform	the recurring costs, and recurring dependencies on shore, are idiotically high
13:38	asciilifeform	ergo it is simply a small flat that happens to - temporarily - float. not a machine for surviving 2000km from nearest man.
13:38	asciilifeform	for a year.
13:38	shinohai	;;later tell BingoBoingo http://ix.io/15qy
13:38	gribble	The operation succeeded.
13:39	mircea_popescu	well, figure out what you eat in a year ; plus all the things you might want but won't eventually eat.
13:40	mircea_popescu	suddenly your item is not a mere boat but a fucking battleship.
13:40	asciilifeform	about size of 2 refrigerator trucks.
13:40	asciilifeform	i did the arithmetic.
13:40	asciilifeform	would look quite like that museum sub.
13:40	mircea_popescu	fresh water, at a gallon a day per head, means if you're actually alone a deux, 4 tons just that.
13:40	asciilifeform	water is distilled, wtf.
13:40	mircea_popescu	i suppose you could not wash for an entire year, a la rms...
13:40	asciilifeform	even the sub didn't CARRY fresh water, srsly
13:41	mircea_popescu	heh.
13:41	mircea_popescu	your sail will power a seawater processing plant now ?
13:41	asciilifeform	the ultimate constraint is energy, aha
13:41	mircea_popescu	those things are no smaller than X size for a reason.
13:41	mircea_popescu	you ever tasted ocean-desalinated water btw ?
13:41	asciilifeform	how long photo panel lives for, how many fit on deck, what can you get from windmills, etc.
13:41	mircea_popescu	i wouldn't drink that. not for a year.
13:42	asciilifeform	submariners - drank.
13:43	asciilifeform	if it's any consolation, likely none of us would qualify as submariners, most blokes alive today are too tall for ww2 sub
13:43	asciilifeform	i am not a tall fella but i did not fit in the cot in that museum-sub (it was largely unguarded and you could play with the contents)
13:43	asciilifeform	pet - fit.
13:43	mircea_popescu	so you'll drink piss just so as to not have to listen to the neighbours fuck ?
13:44	asciilifeform	well, more that i am willing to ask 'how ~much~ piss would i need to drink so that...'
13:45	mats	and then you get to enjoy hot racking with the crew
13:45	mircea_popescu	365 days of a gallon each. coupla tons.
13:45	asciilifeform	mats: in last thread, we did 'how much of a crew is needed with modern mechanisms'
13:45	mircea_popescu	mats his sub has no crew. just his pet robot!
13:45	asciilifeform	lel
13:45	mats	like sitting on a freshly warm toilet seat, with less ick factor
13:45	mircea_popescu	anyway. ima go do things. with people.
13:45	mircea_popescu	mats i like that!
13:45	asciilifeform	have fun mircea_popescu
13:46	mircea_popescu	course, it's always my womenz that warmed it, might be a factor.
13:46	asciilifeform	( did mircea_popescu ever build that mega-toilet ??)
		↖
13:46	mats	it's a fleeting, intimate moment with a stranger, in my case
13:47	mats	asciilifeform: I read the thread but didn't see a number, what did you arrive at?
13:48	asciilifeform	mats: i never determined a hard minimum. but will note that most of the folk on a ww2 sub did things that would be mechanical/reasonably automatic today.
13:49	asciilifeform	(turning valves, etc.)
13:50	mats	so, over or under ten?
		↖
13:51	asciilifeform	ideally ~= 2.
13:51	asciilifeform	but don't conflate the war machine and the survival capsule from thread.
13:51	asciilifeform	wholly different domains.
13:51	asciilifeform	how big of a crew does mats's house have ?
13:53	trinque	I admit I was googling solar yachts only yesterday
13:53	trinque	seems like if you're wiling to go about 7-10kts there are a few
13:54	asciilifeform	trinque: you will find that the machines are not designed for permanent life aboard, or to survive winters.
		↖
13:54	asciilifeform	ergo the thread.
13:56	thestringpuller	so i'm using suds with python. i'm looking at the package maintanence and the mailing list. anyhow when an opensource project dies, can you just be like "i'm forking this and doing it"
13:57	asciilifeform	...sure ?
13:57	asciilifeform	or what, old maintainer will carbomb you ?
13:57	BingoBoingo	Nothing wrong with shipping container as concrete pouring mold, especially since you can tie rebar in there too. http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505520
13:57	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 15:52 trinque: if you've reached the point where the world has beaten you back to being willing to live in a shipping container, why live?
13:57	asciilifeform	thestringpuller: gavin has not yet showed up at my house with kalash
13:57	asciilifeform	fwiw.
13:57	thestringpuller	fair point.
13:57	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: land fortresses ~dunwork.
13:58	asciilifeform	(i suppose they do, if you're chingis khan, or mircea_popescu , etc. but not for the contemplated poorfag use case.)
14:03	mats	asciilifeform: two
14:08	phf	i'd live on a sub, if it had those 1970s stage set rooms with giant windows through which you can observe underwater marine life, but which you can also close if you're being attacked by the establishment
		↖
14:08	asciilifeform	i will add that my interest in subj is not limited to the sea, but to all other environments which are hostile to 'normalpeoplewithfamilies' (as depicted in mircea_popescu's articles) yet have plenty of room to be 'lost' inside, and quite habitable with some amount of technological help
14:08	asciilifeform	phf: aha!
14:08	trinque	gonna have to build rapture
14:08	trinque	I'd live there
14:09	asciilifeform	waiwut
14:09	trinque	undersea city in Bioshock
14:09	asciilifeform	a city is quite the opposite of subj, no ?
14:09	asciilifeform	definitionally.
14:09	phf	too libertarian for my taste, proud people of short stature standing tall
14:10	trinque	> plenty of room to be 'lost' inside
14:10	trinque	lol, mystical item indeed
14:10	asciilifeform	trinque: a city is, by definition, what i'd like to avoid.
14:10	trinque	that was probaby *my* escapist fantasy leaking in
14:11	trinque	less shipping crate and more crypto-babylon
14:11	asciilifeform	the problem i was futilely stabbing away at is 'how to be independent of homo homini lupus est'
		↖
14:11	asciilifeform	there is 1 historic solution, as mircea_popescu like to point out, 'be chingis khan', 10,001 slaves, armies, castles.
14:12	trinque	phf: sure sure, just the physical thing without the Rand
14:12	asciilifeform	there may be other solution.
		↖
14:13	asciilifeform	trinque: i played the game, it had about the same relationship to rand as 'Der Giftpilz' has to judaism.
14:13	asciilifeform	$s der giftpilz
14:13	a111	1 results for "der giftpilz", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=der%20giftpilz
14:13	asciilifeform	$s Der Giftpilz
14:13	a111	3 results for "Der Giftpilz", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=Der%20Giftpilz
14:19	phf	asciilifeform: have you read hakim bey's "pirate utopias"?
14:20	asciilifeform	nope
14:21	shinohai	http://animatedviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/sea202002.jpg <<< or you can make a sealab
14:21	asciilifeform	shinohai: why not orbitlab. probably cheaper.
14:21	asciilifeform	plenty of mockable nonsolutions to choose from.
14:22	phf	or find some underwater grotto on one of less inhabited greek islands, seal it, etc.
14:22	shinohai	We already have orbitlab up there
14:22	*	phf prefers james bond solutions
14:22	trinque	no good, sealab blows up once an episode.
14:24	phf	asciilifeform: it's a totally speculative exploration of north african pirate city states during the age of exploration http://hermetic.com/bey/pirate-utopias/ it might appeal to your romantic nature
		↖ ↖
14:24	*	asciilifeform puts on list.
14:28	ben_vulpes	trinque: not triggered, but definitely amused.
14:32	ben_vulpes	when the problem domains are simple, the solution proposed appears to work. in reality, as *tard mgmt demands more features, flexibility, reports, etc, the complexity of maintaining and extending under the frameworkreich becomes more and more costly, a thing not necessarily apparent to anyone who hasn't suffered the saga or who doesn't think in terms of complexity minimization from the get-go.
14:32	ben_vulpes	i believe that you're familiar with this?
14:39	jurov	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505520 << actually this might not be so bad idea. i.e. "internodal transport nomad"
		↖
14:39	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 15:52 trinque: if you've reached the point where the world has beaten you back to being willing to live in a shipping container, why live?
14:48	mats	http://www.snbforums.com/threads/unable-to-update-firmware-from-asus-380-3264-to-merlin.32786 "To comply with regulatory amendments, we have modified our certification rule to ensure better firmware quality. This version is not compatible with all previously released ASUS firmware and uncertified third party firmware. Please check our official websites for
14:48	mats	the certified firmware."
14:48	mats	zing
14:52	asciilifeform	'ASUS are co-working with developers such as Merlin and DDWRT to make sure 3rd party firmwares power are the same as ASUS firmware and obey the regulations. ' << lel.
14:53	asciilifeform	reflash with probes.
14:53	asciilifeform	piss on'em.
14:54	asciilifeform	but yes, none of this has anything to do with spectrum politeness and everything to do with 'them terrorists install non-usgificated firmware, handbuilt bsds even, this has got to stop'
14:55	asciilifeform	just like what microshit is in the process of achieving with pc.
14:55	asciilifeform	'boot signed bootloader' etc.
14:55	asciilifeform	'for yer own good.'
14:55	asciilifeform	mats: and the pigfuckers certainly don't want you and i turning the wifi chip into mesh network etc.
		↖
14:56	asciilifeform	various gaping holes of 'nobody could have foreseen!' are being plugged.
14:56	phf	WIFI is so that you can talk between your WINDOWS 10 PC and your COMCAST ROUTER, duh
14:56	asciilifeform	aha!111
14:56	mats	let em try to stop, its an excellent expenditure of funds
14:57	mats	.cn is happy to churn em out all the same, no?
14:57	asciilifeform	costs them ~0.
14:57	asciilifeform	cn will churn out STRICTLY what can be sold to the chumps and no more.
14:58	asciilifeform	incidentally cn co. 'baofeng' happily sells 'piss all over the spectrum' radio sets in usa.
14:58	asciilifeform	nobody bans.
14:58	asciilifeform	so the router thing is quite certainly not about spectrum policing.
14:58	asciilifeform	(baofeng is a short-range VOICE radio, though, and hence politically inconsequential.)
15:02	mats	i recall the issue being about power transmission
15:02	asciilifeform	the issue is about control.
15:05	mats	i'm reading the document and it doesn't explicitly say anything about the firmware
15:05	mats	>An applicant must describe the overall security measures and systems that ensure that: 1. only properly authenticated software is loaded and operating the device; and 2. the device is not easily modified to operate with RF parameters outside of the authorization.
15:05	asciilifeform	1 is it.
15:06	asciilifeform	what's so hard to see ?
15:06	mats	1 is so ridiculously vague that it doesn't mean anything to me
15:07	asciilifeform	'device may only be sold if 1) it is broken in the ways we demand 2) user cannot fix it'
15:07	mats	authenticated by who?
15:07	asciilifeform	by usg.
15:07	mats	seems to me manufacturers are taking a generous interpretation to this in order to accelerate obsolescence
15:07	mats	i don't see the tendril at work here
15:08	mats	same old profit seeking motives.
15:08	asciilifeform	they could have done the 'signed firmware' thing in 1990s.
15:08	asciilifeform	tivo did.
15:08	asciilifeform	routers - did not.
15:08	asciilifeform	so 'profit motive' my arse.
15:09	asciilifeform	wide-open wrt54g sold more than all other put together.
15:10	mats	fuck that thing. took me almost an entire day to reflash, first go around
15:10	asciilifeform	but it... WORKED.
15:10	mats	too many revisions, and i don't think wrt54gl was available then
15:10	asciilifeform	there are still wrt54g in use.
15:11	asciilifeform	'gl' was simply when they added the snipped upper 2MB of ram back in
15:11	asciilifeform	temporarily
15:11	asciilifeform	as 'extra cost'
15:11	asciilifeform	'here, you can have usable box again!111 for 2x the cost! be happy'
15:12	asciilifeform	('g' was sold, for its last few years of life, with insufficient ram to run any extant linux)
15:12	asciilifeform	at any rate, don't expect usg to surrender in their war against general-purpose radio.
		↖
15:13	asciilifeform	cheap universal digital radio drives snooping costs to astronomical heights, and threatens to de-emphasize centralized telco antennae
		↖
15:13	asciilifeform	quite the nightmare to statist mind.
15:14	pete_dushenski	"If you work at Goldman Sachs in New York City and you want to tie up a woman and then have sex with her, there’s a good chance you’ll first have to speak to Rita. She’ll insist on calling your office, speaking to the switchboard operator, and being patched through to your desk. Then she will want to check out your profile on the company website and LinkedIn. She’ll demand you send her message fro
15:14	pete_dushenski	m your work email, and require a scan of either your passport or driver’s license. And you will comply." << y u no pgp rita ?
15:15	mats	looks like i read the old ver of the doc. see https://apps.fcc.gov/kdb/GetAttachment.html?id=zXtrctoj6zH7oNEOO6De6g%3D%3D&desc=594280%20D02%20U-NII%20Device%20Security%20v01r03&tracking_number=39498 for the new one if you wanna read
15:15	pete_dushenski	"“I am looking to weed out police and crazies,” she said. She estimates that only one in four potential customers ultimately passes. Those who do win some time with a professional escort/dominatrix, but it comes at a hefty price: Each hour can cost up to $800, and Rita’s cut is 30%." << steep!
		↖
15:15	asciilifeform	pete_dushenski: sounds suspiciously cheap
15:16	pete_dushenski	alf has cross-shopped in this market ?
15:16	mats	dunno that you can buy an hour's stay in a shoebox for $800 in nyc
15:16	asciilifeform	can't say that i have. simply that 800/h is not titanically selective of customers.
15:16	asciilifeform	i suppose the difference is being covered by the mandatory blackmail material
15:16	asciilifeform	as described in pete_dushenski's quote.
15:17	pete_dushenski	if it's only once or twice a month, a guess it's not that steep. and probably no more than a dinner for two at iron chef's resto in manhattan...
15:18	BingoBoingo	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505672 << submarine/boat can't promise this anymore. Niantic will put a poke-a-man stop near your nowhere and orcs follow.
15:18	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 16:21 asciilifeform: i would happily live in a truck if the truck could be teleported into a parallel space with 0 people by push of a button.
15:18	pete_dushenski	bobby flay, that's the one i was thinking of
15:18	deedbot	[Qntra] Coinbase's Brian Armstrong Huffs The Ethereum Hardfork Jenkem - http://qntra.net/2016/07/coinbases-brian-armstrong-huffs-the-ethereum-hardfork-jenkem/
15:18	asciilifeform	anyway folks who run idiot traps (which is what this is) are a necessary part of ecosystem
15:18	asciilifeform	like vultures
15:19	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: wake me up when there are pokemonists in north atlantic.
15:19	pete_dushenski	isn't symbiosis beautiful ?
15:19	BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: based on observations in the wild, if they were told to go there they would.
15:20	asciilifeform	on what?
15:20	pete_dushenski	http://99percentinvisible.org/article/ghost-boxes-reusing-abandoned-big-box-superstores-across-america/ << reimagining post-box-store 'murica. life goes on, even with brittle vinyl bones.
15:21	asciilifeform	pete_dushenski: i always picture them as being reused for gulags.
15:22	asciilifeform	a la 'superdome'
15:22	BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: What and how are immaterial, likely will be solved for them.
15:22	pete_dushenski	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505363 << same as kraken et al. as per http://www.contravex.com/2016/07/15/suppose-we-have-an-exchange-that-due-to-resource-limitations-is-limited-to-5-decimal-places-for-orders-or-how-kraken-is-scamming-to-stay-solvent/ << fleecing chumps... nothing to see here tewowist (israeli accent)
15:22	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 12:16 thestringpuller: Also they are nailing the doors shut on Ether tomorrow until "clear winner": "As a Poloniex customer, you do not need to do anything. The migration will occur automatically, and your full balance of Ethereum will be transferred to the winning chain. Keep in mind that as we near the fork, we will be temporarily disabling deposits and withdrawals in preparation for the migration process. Trading will continue
15:23	pete_dushenski	asciilifeform: walls are kinda thin and flimsy for that purpose. the orcs with 'strong retard' muscle will bust through those barriers like a steam train through a sheet of tin foil.
15:24	pete_dushenski	"In Austin, Minnesota, another Kmart was turned into offices for Hormel, as well as a giant Spam Museum." << lol!
15:25	*	pete_dushenski could never understand his father's interest in spam. perhaps curio, perhaps rekindling of some memory, but it was always in house.
15:26	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: i just had a crate of lafonde b00kz come in. these have got to be the worst-formatted and least dense printed matter i have ever purchased.
15:27	asciilifeform	for fucks sake, what does he use, ms 'wordpad' ?!
15:27	BingoBoingo	Srsly? He seems to put most of the book content on blog.
15:27	asciilifeform	i have nfi
15:27	BingoBoingo	huh
15:28	asciilifeform	good chunk of the text does look familiar, yes.
15:33	BingoBoingo	I kinda though his formula was most text on blog, book offers a bit of extra.
15:38	BingoBoingo	Anyways Orlov's plumbing problem is that when making the boat it should have been a primary rather than secondary consideration. Also wtf, hoses? Rigid copper seems like it would be much better for that application if boar design allowed for sanely routing pipes.
15:39	asciilifeform	why the fuck would you want rigid pipes on a boat.
15:40	asciilifeform	i mean, for water, this isn't reactor coolant
15:40	BingoBoingo	because they have just enough flex to not break and because unlike hoses do not break just because time passed.
15:40	asciilifeform	not all hose is made of shit y'know
15:40	asciilifeform	or exposed to light.
15:41	BingoBoingo	Of course, but even nice hoses abrade when movement happens.
15:41	asciilifeform	abrade, e.g., this, http://www.titeflex.com/industrial/products/PTFE
15:41	BingoBoingo	Even the mega psi hot water hoses
15:41	asciilifeform	good luck.
15:42	BingoBoingo	AHA, but Orlov makes a point of NOT using that.
15:42	BingoBoingo	And hell PEX "hose" also likely would work.
15:42	asciilifeform	yes he has the weird hipster 'let's use only junkyard parts' thing going
15:42	asciilifeform	dun ask me.
15:43	asciilifeform	there is, imho, something there, old garden hoses are likely to remain available longer and wider than teflon
15:43	BingoBoingo	PEX is nice because you can supply every fixture from single manifold without fittings between manifold and fixture.
15:44	BingoBoingo	Old garden hoses though, especially the less common 3/4" are wear items even when situated in positions where wear seems unlikely.
15:44	asciilifeform	rodents eat pex.
15:44	BingoBoingo	How do rodents get on boat?
15:44	asciilifeform	and it dies in sunlight.
15:44	asciilifeform	i'll skip pex.
15:44	BingoBoingo	Yes, PEX has problems when not buried in wall.
15:44	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: same way they get into every boat ever ?
15:45	asciilifeform	or house.
15:45	asciilifeform	pex really seems like one of those plastics specially-designed for american chumps, to annihilate the intrinsic advantages of using plastic
15:46	asciilifeform	so as to require frequent maintenance
15:46	BingoBoingo	But anyways Rigid copper is king because easy to work with
15:46	asciilifeform	easy on land
15:46	asciilifeform	where there is ample space to swing a torch
15:47	asciilifeform	and you are not surrounded with flammable decking
15:47	BingoBoingo	On boat you can have big bag of "sharkbites" and skip torch.
15:47	asciilifeform	lemme guess, equiv. of duct tape ?
15:47	asciilifeform	nothx.
15:47	jurov	duct tape everything!
15:48	BingoBoingo	sharkbites is this brass encased o-ring push to connect deal. rather handy
15:49	*	asciilifeform makes note to self not to buy boatz from BingoBoingo
		↖
15:49	BingoBoingo	those, tubing cutter, crescent wrench, channel locks, and emery cloth offers minimal space plumbing toolkit
15:49	BingoBoingo	Well when initially building boat do solder connections when you have the space to do so.
15:49	BingoBoingo	At sea cut pipe and sharkbite in new
15:51	BingoBoingo	tubing cutter that demands more than 1-1/2" swing radius sucks
15:53	asciilifeform	phun phakt: american (and probably other) ww2 subs had lathes on board.
15:54	BingoBoingo	Well how else do you thread pipe?
15:55	asciilifeform	http://www.gettyimages.com/pictures/an-image-of-a-metal-lathe-on-the-captured-german-u505-news-photo-181424737 << germany, also.
15:55	asciilifeform	quite likely, everyone.
15:57	asciilifeform	lel u.s. navy, 'During the past six months, our surveyors have uncovered a number of submarines not complying with a requirement for a chip shield on the lathe or drill press. To aid the fleet in a decision process for procuring a solution, I found three of numerous possible companies which supply equipment...'
15:57	asciilifeform	( http://www.public.navy.mil/navsafecen/Documents/afloat/Submarines/FLASH/FLASH_2011/2011_Jul-Sep_Web.pdf )
15:57	BingoBoingo	Submarine without lathe is likely impossible
16:01	asciilifeform	https://ctmprojectsblog.wordpress.com/2014/09/12/hawaii-pearl-harbor-machine-shops << moar picturesque examples
16:02	asciilifeform	i should like to know what it was they typically cut.
16:02	asciilifeform	lengths of pipe, as per BingoBoingo, is one likely item, but this pointedly does not require a whole lathe
16:03	asciilifeform	(pipe cutter/threader would suffice)
16:03	asciilifeform	and certainly not a mill.
16:03	BingoBoingo	fittings!
16:04	asciilifeform	doubt it was the only thing; consider how many spare fittings would fit in the machine shop hall.
16:04	asciilifeform	(in place of the toolz)
16:05	BingoBoingo	One can not imagine all possible fittings that might be required in underwater plumbing.
16:06	BingoBoingo	Also how does one make a valve with just a threader?
16:07	Framedragger	$s ipython
16:07	a111	2 results for "ipython", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=ipython
16:07	Framedragger	$s jupyter
16:07	a111	1 results for "jupyter", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=jupyter
16:09	Framedragger	wonder what tmsr thinks of ipython notebooks. basically you go to website and are presented with python interpreter, and a ready-made list of commands for graphing, doing stats etc. thinking of doing one of these for some initial ssh keyset analysis. nothing too serious at all
		↖ ↖
16:09	Framedragger	presumably said website would have the raw data as a module or somesuch
16:14	trinque	no one will stop you from using the tools you like. we've already got cl, python, perl, shell script, et al, floating around various places
16:14	ben_vulpes	people will bitch about ths js.
16:15	Framedragger	thought, maybe there's some elephant-in-the-room reason for avoiding it :p
16:15	trinque	well, python's a shitty language.
16:16	Framedragger	as a sworn lisper (well presumably) trinque, what do you make of haskell, out of curiosity?
16:17	trinque	plenty of that in the logs
16:17	trinque	$s from:asciilifeform haskell
16:17	a111	18 results for "from:asciilifeform haskell", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Aasciilifeform%20haskell
16:17	ben_vulpes	lol and even more in teh other logs
16:17	Framedragger	heh, thanks
16:17	ben_vulpes	binding arbitration
16:17	ben_vulpes	where
16:17	ben_vulpes	did that come from?
16:18	trinque	ben_vulpes' pastinator strikes again?
16:18	ben_vulpes	ah!
16:18	ben_vulpes	no, weechat
16:18	ben_vulpes	previous line in some other buffer or what?
16:18	*	ben_vulpes not involved in any sort of binding arbitration
16:20	Framedragger	ben_vulpes' subconscious is tapping into his tty
16:21	ben_vulpes	mircea_popescu: probably has better binding arbitrartion jokes than i in any case
16:33	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506153 << single-user computing in a wwwtron is braindamaged.
		↖
16:33	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 20:09 Framedragger: wonder what tmsr thinks of ipython notebooks. basically you go to website and are presented with python interpreter, and a ready-made list of commands for graphing, doing stats etc. thinking of doing one of these for some initial ssh keyset analysis. nothing too serious at all
16:33	asciilifeform	picture 'sorry you can't use grep, www.grep.com is down'
		↖
16:34	asciilifeform	at any rate, the thing 'ipython', 'sage', etc. imitate, is 'mathematica', which is a close-source turd but at least it WORKS and WILL WORK FOREVER on my internet-less machine.
16:34	asciilifeform	i have a ~7 y.o. version, it runs fine.
16:34	asciilifeform	*closed
16:35	deedbot	[Ossasepia] Cetatea Neamtului - http://www.dianacoman.com/2016/07/19/cetatea-neamtului/
16:38	phf	ipython is a handy python repl thing, but i think it was some people's first repl, so it turned into reinvention of clim presentations. problem is it's entirely useless without third party libraries for any kind of large scale data analysis, because core python is limited. where's the landscape of python scientific libraries is a constantly changing mess.
16:39	asciilifeform	i suffered the misfortune, at rupturefarms, of maintaining a 'sage' thing, it was agony
16:39	Joshua-I	afaik ipython has a similar api to a lot of stats / machine learning suites
16:39	asciilifeform	~80% glue-with-c code by weight
16:39	asciilifeform	(because you gotta 'lapack' etc)
16:40	asciilifeform	heterogeneous computing is liquishit.
16:40	Joshua-I	I'm doing this program online that uses it. Gets the job done
16:41	asciilifeform	whereas sanity - is possible. (e.g., on lispm you could use a lisp data structure in a fortran proggy and vice-versa, with 0 glue.)
16:41	Joshua-I	I might not use it for more specific analysis tho
16:41	trinque	yes, and yet phuctor www is python
16:41	asciilifeform	trinque: on linux, no less
16:41	asciilifeform	trinque: it was made 'junkyard wars' style, out of readily-available crud.
16:41	asciilifeform	in, i should add, great haste.
16:41	trinque	sure, I'm not criticizing it
16:42	trinque	some things benefit from expediency and we as yet lack the republican computing platform
16:42	asciilifeform	there is plenty to criticize. but it had gone with 'sane engineering all the way down' you would be waiting for it still.
16:42	trinque	no quarrel here
16:42	phf	Joshua-I: i don't know what "same api" means, in this case. ipython is an enhanced ~repl~, but the code that you write with it constantly changes, because can't just load data set into a python array. need to use numpy, etc.
16:43	trinque	tbot here is perl, trb builder is either sh or Makefile
16:43	asciilifeform	phuctor in python ought to be seen in the same light as the bamboo stakes smeared in shit the vietnamese defended their country with
16:43	asciilifeform	not good weapon
16:43	asciilifeform	but it is what they had.
16:43	trinque	aha, so guy might as well do some work as long as he knows he is not making statements about how computing is to be done.
16:44	asciilifeform	(i will remind n00bs, also, that the part of phuctor which actually phuctors is a pure c proggy.)
16:44	trinque	that said wtf is wrong with the lisp repl for a "notebook"
16:44	asciilifeform	no graphics?
16:44	trinque	gabriel_laddel was supposed to be building just this
16:44	trinque	clim rather
16:44	phf	you look at ipython code now, read tutorials and you think to yourself "oh this makes sense, it is nice", but over the course of 5 years scientific computing with python went through 3 or 4 different suits. that's an unreasonable amount of cognitive overhead, considering that mathematica now supports all the same primitives that mathemaica in '95 did
		↖
16:44	asciilifeform	clim is a misery.
16:44	Joshua-I	trinque: he still is
16:44	Joshua-I	trinque: it's pretty impressive to see in person
16:45	asciilifeform	phf: aha!
16:45	trinque	I do not benefit from tales of secondhand wonder !!!1!!
16:45	trinque	lol
16:45	Joshua-I	phf: eh I might be over abstracting because I tend to just jump from concept to api so I can get something done sooner rather than later
16:45	asciilifeform	* a111 has quit (Quit: ...) << phf ...?
16:45	phf	saw it
16:45	Joshua-I	Like some arbitrary mapping of math -> programming api
16:45	Joshua-I	Mentally
16:45	phf	Joshua-I: you make it sound like being sloppy with your tools is a good thing :)
16:46	Joshua-I	phf: it is if you want the goods
16:46	phf	Joshua-I: sure, that's why i use intellij for work, but i will not talk up the virtues of intellij like it's a good thing, which is what you're doing
16:47	phf	somehow the separation between the two is totally alien concept to a lot of people who run into tmsr machine. "i eat shit, therefore it's good for everyone". we too sometimes eat shit, but we have good sense to know that it might not be the best thing
16:48	Joshua-I	phf: ok? so what
16:49	Joshua-I	phf: it's not like consistency and rigor are foreign concepts to me just adding in some comments on the other side of the conversation
16:49	phf	Joshua-I: you didn't understand what i said, and i have neither interest nor time to explain myself
16:50	Joshua-I	phf: ok cool
16:50	trinque	$gettrust deedbot Joshua-I
16:50	deedbot	L1: 0, L2: 1 by 1 connections.
16:55	Joshua-I	trinque: I'd advise seeing it for yourself as it may be the only way to convince you
16:55	Joshua-I	trinque: my powers are quite limited as you can see here
16:57	asciilifeform	phf: re python: in my view, if you EVER end up breaking a language in such a way that 20 y.o. code cannot run, not only was your lang broken to begin with, but YOUR HEAD was.
		↖
16:57	asciilifeform	and ought to be milking hogs, not designing systems
16:58	asciilifeform	but naturally crapolade built ~by~ and ~for~ disposable young cocklets, does not ~have~ a concept of '20 year old code i wish to run today'
17:01	jurov	is there any language capable of running 20yo code?
17:01	asciilifeform	common lisp.
17:01	asciilifeform	ada.
17:01	asciilifeform	fortran.
17:01	asciilifeform	languages with MOTHERFUCKING ACTUAL STANDARDS
17:01	asciilifeform	and multi-vendor implementations.
17:02	asciilifeform	(yes most folks programmin' today have never seen, smelled, touched, such a thing.)
17:02	asciilifeform	forth, incidentally, also.
17:02	jurov	java!
17:02	asciilifeform	(ansi) scheme.
17:02	asciilifeform	lel multivendor java?!
17:02	jurov	ibm ships own jvm, too
		↖
17:03	phf	pascal, less so than above languages, but still more so than even C, since it has a standard notion of pascal machine. C can do 20 year old code, but within some narrow scope of posix, or more like "unix"
		↖
17:04	jurov	re: common lisp - i'm curious, is there any 20y code still worthwhile to run now?
17:05	asciilifeform	jurov: yes. e.g., macsyma.
17:05	asciilifeform	parts of which pre-date common lisp and are almost half a century old.
17:05	asciilifeform	STILL unbeatable
17:05	asciilifeform	phf: c 'portability' is a laugh, considering the tight coupling with cpu
17:06	asciilifeform	(a good chunk of historic c succumbs to endianism, word size, etc. idiocy)
17:06	asciilifeform	even before you get to os/libs crapolade.
17:08	deedbot	[Qntra] US Department of "Defense" Switches To iPhone - http://qntra.net/2016/07/us-department-of-defense-switches-to-iphone/
17:08	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506248 << in past life, when i gave half a shit, EVERY single proggy i tried to run on ibm jvm, barfed.
17:08	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 21:02 jurov: ibm ships own jvm, too
17:08	asciilifeform	there was NEVER a usable multivendorization of java.
17:09	asciilifeform	nor was it ever seriously 'cross-platform'
17:09	asciilifeform	nor was there ever a hard standard.
17:09	jurov	i dunno, i had a life as java developer, ibm jvm was superior on linux and ran both eclipse and our project fine
17:10	jurov	but we disgress, thanks for examples!
17:10	asciilifeform	well you wrote ~for~ it
17:10	asciilifeform	so yes, jurov's code ran on it, because written for it, mega-surprise.
17:10	asciilifeform	i was speaking of commercial proggies written for sun's.
17:11	jurov	lol i was the only dude on the team with the setup
17:11	jurov	since i was sysadmin hybrid
17:11	asciilifeform	was there a gui ?
17:11	jurov	everyone else was oracle+win
17:11	jurov	yes, there was a gui
17:11	asciilifeform	(iirc items with plain std i/o worked on all jvm)
17:12	asciilifeform	at any rate, the existence of even the POSSIBILITY of a program which ran on one, but not another, is what i was speaking of
17:12	asciilifeform	this is quite impossible in a properly-specified multivendor environment.
17:12	jurov	eh, i run into this with common lisp all the time
17:12	asciilifeform	'Android would freeze unexpectedly, especially when trying to watch aerial feeds of unmanned drones, the source said.'
17:12	asciilifeform	lel
17:13	asciilifeform	jurov: this is because the standard was incomplete, and it is nearly impossible to write a program today wholly using only the standard.
17:13	asciilifeform	(it omitted, e.g., sockets)
17:13	asciilifeform	'what if yer system doesn't have sockets'
17:14	asciilifeform	https://archive.is/oGZR6 << in other lulz. 'Marines Will Soon Need to Know How to Shoot a Moving Target, Because That Wasn't a Thing Before.'
17:15	jurov	well, after light usage i found bugs in core functionality in ecl, like it ignored *TRACE-OUTPUT*
17:15	asciilifeform	bugs - exist.
17:15	jurov	so i'm rather sceptical about whole affair
17:15	asciilifeform	sometimes even deliberate idiocies.
17:16	asciilifeform	iirc there were versions of allegro which ignored case sensitivity toggle.
17:16	asciilifeform	the unfortunate bit is that standards-compliance costs money.
17:16	asciilifeform	serious money.
17:17	asciilifeform	and it is not sufficient to ~have~ the money, you must also ~withhold~ it from the non-compliant vendors.
17:17	asciilifeform	(which is why microshit lusers pay and pay and still get 'embrace & extinguish' implementations of everything)
17:18	asciilifeform	if i go to a shop and buy a vacuum cleaner and the mains plug fits in NO socket, i will never buy from said vendor again.
17:18	asciilifeform	for whatever jwz reason, this is NOT how folks have been treating programming languages
17:18	asciilifeform	and so they get, what they get.
17:19	asciilifeform	(they get to, e.g., buy a million adapters from one broken misstandard to another)
17:19	asciilifeform	and a tall pile of things which MUST burn.
17:23	Framedragger	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506175 << oh sure, i agree; but it may work for a limited case, as a quick thing; not as a proper stats platform or whatever, god forbid!
17:23	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 20:33 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506153 << single-user computing in a wwwtron is braindamaged.
17:24	*	jurov offers to asciilifeform classical vacuum cleaner with edison screw plug
17:25	asciilifeform	jurov saw such a thing?!
17:26	asciilifeform	where?
17:26	jurov	it was obsoleted
17:26	asciilifeform	mno?
17:26	asciilifeform	i have edison screw light bulbs all over the house ?
17:27	jurov	it was *the* standard at some time
17:27	asciilifeform	for semi-permanent connections it is still unbeatable
17:27	asciilifeform	but i have never seen an applicance made with said plug.
17:27	asciilifeform	afaik it was only ever 'the' standard for lights.
17:29	asciilifeform	or, hm, apparently in usa toasters etc with light-bulb cones were once common.
17:29	jurov	i remember seeing electrical irons with it
17:29	asciilifeform	but regardless, jurov has no case here, because if i want to plug in such a toaster today, i can easily do so without spending so much as one extra penny.
17:29	asciilifeform	because the socket was ~not~ actually done away with.
17:38	mircea_popescu	$up Joshua-I
17:38	deedbot	Joshua-I voiced for 30 minutes.
17:39	asciilifeform	how was meatspace mircea_popescu ?
17:39	mircea_popescu	not bad. very nice spring here.
17:39	asciilifeform	neato
17:39	asciilifeform	winter is a month or so long ?
17:40	mircea_popescu	well, if you count it going to like 5 celsius ONE NIGHT and otherwise being a very balmy lower tens thing winter,
17:41	mircea_popescu	then it lasts approx march-jul
17:41	Joshua-I	Do you care for winter?
17:41	mircea_popescu	sure.
17:42	Joshua-I	So do you miss longer, colder winters?
17:42	mircea_popescu	looky, if i missed everything i cared for and don't currently have it'd be an endless funeral+wake over here.
17:44	asciilifeform	what, other than proper euro winter, did mircea_popescu not fit in his suitcase ?
17:45	mircea_popescu	it never rains in egypt. that was nice. not in suitcase. it never gets hot in northern transylvania. also. i dun have either bosphorus or golden horn. the list is long
17:45	mircea_popescu	every time i leave someplace there's a bunch of girly tears left behind, you know ?
17:45	asciilifeform	i've wondered on occasion why mircea_popescu did not settle among the turks.
17:46	mircea_popescu	why the turks specifically ?
17:46	asciilifeform	many positive things re the turks in mircea_popescu's works.
17:46	Joshua-I	How distant is it for you now?
17:46	asciilifeform	almost enough to make me contemplate.
17:47	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform not a bad place. of course, these days... Joshua-I sorry wut ?
17:47	mircea_popescu	but if one is going to live in a large human anthill, byzantium prolly a better choice than more modern atrocities.
17:48	Joshua-I	Just wondering if you still yearn at all for the winter
17:48	mircea_popescu	im not one for yearning!
17:49	mircea_popescu	(funny enough, winter in romanian is iarna ; reads almost exactly like english "yearn")
17:49	Joshua-I	I'm definitely projecting then :)
17:49	mircea_popescu	Joshua-I what's your favourite girl look like ?
17:50	*	asciilifeform misses one season - spring - which is about two weeks long here. defined as the season where one can go outdoors without either frost or mosquitoes
17:50	Joshua-I	I have broad taste in that area. Let me think on it a minute
17:51	mircea_popescu	by that criteria buenos aires spring is about 10 months long.
17:51	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: i guesses as much.
17:51	asciilifeform	*guessed
17:51	mircea_popescu	did you actually encounter a mosquito while here ?
17:51	asciilifeform	1, i think, but it was not able to bite through my skin for some reason.
17:52	mircea_popescu	it is the strangest thing, i used to think mosquito is the sort of beast that either doesn't exist or else is abundant
17:52	asciilifeform	reminiscent of various yarns where 'cannot eat the alien food because wrong protein chirality'
17:52	mircea_popescu	but here somehow they exist and are rare.
17:52	asciilifeform	possibly they exist steadily in one particular spot in the city
17:52	asciilifeform	and diffuse out with great difficulty.
17:52	mircea_popescu	well yes, the subway.
17:52	mircea_popescu	but even there...
17:53	mircea_popescu	i imagined they must be spraying, but then again i never saw either flight or land crew doing in.
17:53	mircea_popescu	it*
17:54	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505938 << the tub shitter ? neah.
17:54	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 17:46 asciilifeform: ( did mircea_popescu ever build that mega-toilet ??)
17:54	asciilifeform	i still picture it as looking like 'cray-II'
17:55	mircea_popescu	lol.
17:55	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505943 << it's likely fully automated sub could be had ; possibly for the cost of a decade or two of his life.
17:55	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 17:50 mats: so, over or under ten?
17:55	mircea_popescu	i'm also certain it wouldn't be worth having ; but that's a different story.
17:57	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505950 << most ships aren't intended to survive "winter" if your idea of "survive winter" is anything like http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VH9Oq9YArEk/TyAUen8cFaI/AAAAAAAABdU/QoPr6It9QQ4/s1600/IcebreakerYamal.jpg
17:57	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 17:54 asciilifeform: trinque: you will find that the machines are not designed for permanent life aboard, or to survive winters.
17:58	asciilifeform	well perhaps not arctic, but in the general case survive in 'die of hypothermia in half hour' water which fills a good chunk of the planet for much of the year
17:58	asciilifeform	this entails some insulation in the hull (orlov retrofitted ordinary boat with this, there are pics on his www) and a heat source.
17:58	mircea_popescu	if your idea of winter is "no ice floating", then most ships will survive such.
17:59	asciilifeform	well the fiberglass yacht he started with had troubles. hence the retrofit.
17:59	asciilifeform	(it had terrible problems with condensation)
17:59	mircea_popescu	heh.
17:59	mircea_popescu	funny. wood doesn't.
18:00	mircea_popescu	(yes, i'm pretty much convinced that IF you actually wanted to do what is here contemplated, a wooden structure is the best choice.)
18:01	asciilifeform	wood isn't much good for dives.
18:01	mircea_popescu	what dives ?!
18:01	asciilifeform	well in the sub variant.
18:01	mircea_popescu	oh nm.
18:03	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505963 << you know 5 minutes of nature channel footage come distilled out of about two weeks of filming around.
18:03	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 18:08 phf: i'd live on a sub, if it had those 1970s stage set rooms with giant windows through which you can observe underwater marine life, but which you can also close if you're being attacked by the establishment
18:03	mircea_popescu	the sea ain't what it usead to be.
18:04	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505978 << well, technically the solution to your problem is "become a lich", and will be offered in eulora.
18:04	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 18:11 asciilifeform: the problem i was futilely stabbing away at is 'how to be independent of homo homini lupus est'
18:04	asciilifeform	lel
18:07	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505981 << but this thing where "build in environment with large cost" is not a solution, because the enemy incurs the cost only when visiting whereas you incur the cost permanently. so this is, strategically, a nonstarter, whether the medium is mars or ocean or w/e.
18:07	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 18:12 asciilifeform: there may be other solution.
18:07	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: it works against low-effort vermin.
18:07	asciilifeform	sorta like the answer to mice, rats, roaches, is to live where there is winter and turn off the heat on occasion.
18:08	mircea_popescu	i'm not gonna rehash the logic behind http://trilema.com/2014/so-the-dollar-vigilante-scam-ring-is-going-to-jail/ but the discussion of the merits of that project should prolly be read by any would-be sovereigns of this particular bent.
18:08	asciilifeform	granted it does not work if you're captain kidd and whole navy is after yer arse.
18:08	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i have never heard of anyone practicing that solution nor would i think too much of their head tbh.
18:08	asciilifeform	probably because it is not achievable at present tech level.
18:08	asciilifeform	(or, at least, economically)
18:09	asciilifeform	i dun know of anybody camping out in orbit to save on rent either.
18:09	mircea_popescu	accepta-l pe gusti in viata ta!
18:09	asciilifeform	lel
18:10	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505996 << for the record, these "pirate states" are much more proper states than hm, how shall we put this. anyone know the story of the barbarossa turkish fambly ?
18:10	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 18:24 phf: asciilifeform: it's a totally speculative exploration of north african pirate city states during the age of exploration http://hermetic.com/bey/pirate-utopias/ it might appeal to your romantic nature
18:10	asciilifeform	the one where 'why do you molest the seas ?'
18:11	mircea_popescu	no, no,
18:11	mircea_popescu	$google hayredin barbarossa
18:11	deedbot	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayreddin_Barbarossa << Hayreddin Barbarossa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Hayreddin_Barbarossa << Hayreddin Barbarossa - Final Fantasy Wiki - Wikia | https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khairuddin_Barbarossa << Khairuddin Barbarossa - Wikipedia bahasa Indonesia, ensiklopedia ...
18:11	asciilifeform	ah him
18:11	pete_dushenski	barbarossa was ottoman's go-to guy on the seas ya ?
18:11	pete_dushenski	but was venetian iirc ?
18:11	mircea_popescu	spanish tried to attack him on land, etc a whole conundrum
18:12	asciilifeform	not the least bit venetian iirc
18:12	mircea_popescu	pete_dushenski this fellow is original'\s younger brother nd no, they were ottomans.
18:12	mircea_popescu	well, lesbians, technically, but who's cuntin'.
18:13	mircea_popescu	anyway, point being they were "pirates" in the sense erdogan is "embattled". a matter of the foreign press and no more.
18:13	asciilifeform	noshit.jpg: who is 'pirate' and who is 'armed tax collector' is a pov question.
18:14	pete_dushenski	aha. barbs supplanted venetians (and i spanish) on the mediterranean... that's right.
18:14	mircea_popescu	that is one point ; the point im making however is that they weren't pirates in the sense you're not a penis. part of what they did, of fucking course, given the geography. but they were otherwise just as much a normal country as say albania.
18:15	asciilifeform	but yes barbarossa was the ottoman naval penis
18:15	asciilifeform	says ~as much on his tomb
18:15	mircea_popescu	the original - perhaps. the one im discussing here, very much a normal pasha. who happened to have a port in his lands.
18:16	*	pete_dushenski just received email with marketing photos from winnipeg architect with sha1 checksum(!). not sha512 but still highly unexpected.
18:16	asciilifeform	even modern-day somali pirates have a story about how they are merely collecting back-rent for usurped fishing rights.
18:17	mircea_popescu	to take the matter home, you could say nelson was a pirate rather than a lord ; or better yet that kelvin was a scientist rather than a lord. but these people principally did the thing in question ; whereas the african states principally did subsistence farming and small manufacture.
18:17	pete_dushenski	speaking of somali pirates, the recent 'captain philips' film with tom hanks was the most pallid agitprop in that direction
18:17	mircea_popescu	they weren't pirate states in the way florence or venice were.
18:18	*	pete_dushenski admittedly did not watch film, just remembers release
18:19	asciilifeform	per my (admittedly nonexpert) understanding, piracy is an artifact of abundant, unprotected merchant shipping, and tends to quickly get multiplied by 0 when it becomes a palpable problem
18:20	mircea_popescu	well...
18:20	mircea_popescu	the other way to put it is that piracy is what happens when people who don't want to think about the sea decide to think themselves cooler than their neighbours who do like to think about the sea.
18:21	mircea_popescu	it's a fundamental mechanism of putting the inept but uppity in place.
18:21	asciilifeform	british, spanish, etc. 'thought about the sea' plenty
18:21	asciilifeform	but yes, it is a result of 'we Just Want To move cargo'
18:21	asciilifeform	'cannon? what cannon'
18:21	mircea_popescu	"british" doesn't exist here. albion was a failed state bought wholesale by the dutch who then used it as naval stage base.
18:22	mircea_popescu	spanish did not. portuguese did, and they built an empire out of it.
18:22	mircea_popescu	but for the spanish, atlantic was "fly over zone", and as you say, they'd have loved to "separate it".
18:22	asciilifeform	i can see it.
18:22	mircea_popescu	symptomatically, the spanish solution was "make larger ship"
18:22	mircea_popescu	this is always what the idiot does in this situation.
18:23	asciilifeform	sorta why the largest, juiciest, wrecks to salvage even today...
18:23	asciilifeform	are spanish.
18:23	mircea_popescu	(obviously, king mircarlos the 5th would have simply ordered one man rowboats be made and sent every man in one to go to fucking galapagos and return. but then again...)
18:24	asciilifeform	i did wonder, as a boy, reading about such, what did these folks have instead of brains, that their answer to 'pirates sink 20%' was 'put Moar Silver on MEGA-BOAT'
18:24	mircea_popescu	they misperceived the sea, much like you do, much like people who don't sail generally, as a "empty" space.
18:24	mircea_popescu	in that context it's "logical".
18:26	asciilifeform	i never saw it as 'empty'
18:26	asciilifeform	but as 'fewer pirates than here on dry land'
18:26	mircea_popescu	dynamic equilibrium. wherever you take your bleeding husk, piranhas follow.
18:26	mircea_popescu	stop bleeding.
18:30	asciilifeform	elaborate ?
18:30	asciilifeform	i can see, possibly, that if mass of office plankton were somehow place in boats, yes, there would be harvesting thereof.
18:30	asciilifeform	but mass was not under contemplation.
18:30	mircea_popescu	if the sheep found a way to graze on rafts, the wolves would ride around in speedboats.
		↖
18:30	asciilifeform	this, yes.
18:30	asciilifeform	hence why i have 0 interest in 'mass konsooomerized houseboat' concept.
18:31	mircea_popescu	mass has ~nothing to do with it though. YOU are the target, personally. for as long as you're the sort that wants to be a king without a crown, there's going to be a preditor chasing you around.
18:31	asciilifeform	needs to be difficult, rare, and healthily dangerous.
18:31	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: not every tank contains pirannhas. consider the old american south
18:32	asciilifeform	poor whites lived ~wholly unmolested and untaxed by the rulers.
18:32	asciilifeform	because nobody needed them, or the land they occupied, for anything whatsoever.
18:32	mircea_popescu	you think every white man going there became the master of the what, indians ? negroes ?
18:32	asciilifeform	no, but master of own acre.
18:32	mircea_popescu	you have any idea how many white women lived their days as the junior slave in indian fambly, after their husband was dispatched ?
18:32	asciilifeform	(which was no good for cotton or tobacco, and ergo uninteresting to the powerz)
18:32	asciilifeform	we may be thinking of different periods.
18:33	mircea_popescu	looky : every time you find this imaginary space where thermodynamics doesn't apply, it's not that you've found a space where thermodynamics doesn't apply as much as you've deluded yourself in some manner to ignore some obvious wrinkle.
18:33	asciilifeform	~0 indians in the geography in question after andrew jackson bugsprayed them.
18:34	asciilifeform	thermodynamics always applies. eventually.
18:34	asciilifeform	heat death etc.
18:34	mircea_popescu	i'm sorry, you're discussing a slice of time worth ~two decades ?
18:34	asciilifeform	correct.
18:34	asciilifeform	3-4.
18:34	mircea_popescu	you do not see the problem with this ?
18:34	asciilifeform	should i ?
18:35	asciilifeform	may as well ask why i would consider a boat that 'only' can last for two decades.
18:35	mircea_popescu	let's restate. "i would be very comfortable in a chair that was built just like this collapsing assemblage between seconds 1.3 and 1.45 of the fall".
18:35	asciilifeform	seconds, sure. decades ? i dunno that i personally have two decades left.
18:35	mircea_popescu	jackson was president 30-38, civil war started 60. you gotta be shitting me.
18:35	asciilifeform	good things dun last.
18:36	mircea_popescu	things that dun last WEREN'T THINGS IN THE FIRST PLACE!
18:36	mircea_popescu	fucking definition of "figment of your imagination" : "that shit ain't gonna last"
18:36	asciilifeform	well then the only 'thing' is empty space. everything else (even proton may decay...) dun last.
18:37	mircea_popescu	the only thing is you outgrowing the silly shell.
18:37	asciilifeform	$s great slow kings
18:37	a111	3 results for "great slow kings", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=great%20slow%20kings
18:37	asciilifeform	^ oblig.
18:38	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506001 << customs will love ya.
18:38	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 18:39 jurov: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505520 << actually this might not be so bad idea. i.e. "internodal transport nomad"
18:39	diana_coman	heh, quite interesting the 2 decades thing in light of http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506234
18:39	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 20:57 asciilifeform: phf: re python: in my view, if you EVER end up breaking a language in such a way that 20 y.o. code cannot run, not only was your lang broken to begin with, but YOUR HEAD was.
18:39	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506013 << now this, for sure. it's actually identified as "strategic threat", imagine that. "people communicating outside of our stick fingers! TERRORISM!!!"
18:39	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 18:55 asciilifeform: mats: and the pigfuckers certainly don't want you and i turning the wifi chip into mesh network etc.
18:40	mircea_popescu	diana_coman your hawk eye, m'lady!
18:40	mircea_popescu	imagine the sort of crack shot she is with a rifle.
18:40	asciilifeform	diana_coman, mircea_popescu : this is an interesting question, with a depressing answer - common lisp standard is nearing, arguably, it's 'lincoln war' moment, because the necessary general-purpose computer is growing thin on the ground.
18:42	asciilifeform	story interlude: i bought a ~35 y.o. cnc mill recently.
18:42	asciilifeform	replaced stepper motors with modern ones, using original screws
18:42	asciilifeform	... fit perfectly.
18:42	mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2016/sobieski-si-romanii/#comment-118140 << check it out, teh beauty of pingbacks.
18:42	asciilifeform	this kind of thing is ~entirely unremarkable to any literate person.
18:42	asciilifeform	but really it is quite a thing.
18:42	asciilifeform	the 20th c. stability thing, with its attendant luxuries, e.g., industrial standards, is likely a historic fluke.
18:42	asciilifeform	and needs a certain 'height of tower' which is unlikely to stick around for much longer imho.
18:43	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i dunno man, i one day visited prechristian syria, went to bed with woman, appendage fit perfectly.
18:43	mircea_popescu	vacuum seal & all!
18:43	asciilifeform	lel and i bet when you stabbed her angry husband, the blade also fit perfectly in the hole it made
18:43	asciilifeform	mega-surprise.
18:43	mircea_popescu	ikr?
18:43	asciilifeform	this kind of fit is not so hard.
18:44	mircea_popescu	ahahahahaha
18:44	mircea_popescu	oookay.
18:47	mircea_popescu	diana_coman lol what a mess. a) wasn't built by teutons ; b) cantemir the elder was king, not stephen omfg.
18:47	diana_coman	I read it that that was precisely the point, lol
18:47	mircea_popescu	yeah lol.
18:48	mircea_popescu	pity cosbuc didn't write travestys and librettos for burlesque/revue.
18:49	mircea_popescu	"nu stim drumul, ca ne-am duce" ahahaha epic.
18:49	diana_coman	truth be told I did not realise it but it might be better to add to the notes probably, to make this clear
18:49	mircea_popescu	mebbe
18:49	diana_coman	then again, how far does this clear thing go in the end
		~ 19 minutes ~
19:08	pete_dushenski	https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601063/teslas-cheaper-model-3-could-strain-charging-infrastructure/ << more bad news for futurists sponsored by gov-decreed vizions.
19:09	pete_dushenski	"I typically pay $5 to $10 to charge up. Every single station has been, for years, mediocre to terrible. The stations are often broken due to software or hardware problems, and remain out of service for weeks. Competition among electric car drivers for these public charging stations is fierce and intensifying. It’s practically impossible for me to find an open charging station during the day."
19:09	pete_dushenski	sounds like a dream!
19:14	pete_dushenski	next thing you know an autonomous car will drive a trunkfull of c4 into the white house
		↖
19:19	mircea_popescu	new can of wasabi, dear god
19:19	mircea_popescu	it always gets me.
19:20	mats	ima pirate, arr
19:20	mats	i v much enjoy reading about the 'golden age of piracy'
19:21	mircea_popescu	any good shit ?
19:22	mats	i'm reading through these now http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1505996
19:22	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 18:24 phf: asciilifeform: it's a totally speculative exploration of north african pirate city states during the age of exploration http://hermetic.com/bey/pirate-utopias/ it might appeal to your romantic nature
19:22	mats	oh wait, these are fictional huh
		↖
19:23	pete_dushenski	mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2016/sobieski-si-romanii/#selection-693.0-709.26 << fyi italics start here and aren't closed so they continue throughout the remainder of the footnotes.
19:25	mats	anyway, other stuff includes 'Under the Black Flag' by Cordingly, Johnson's 'A General History of the Pyrates', and 'Empire of Blue Water' by Talty
19:25	mircea_popescu	diana_coman most likely plaesi, other side of mountain from piatra neamt.
19:25	mats	i put a bookmark in the last one and forgot to pick it up again, i'm now reminded to do so
19:25	mats	it deals with the v early period where Henry Morgan was busily sacking cities
19:26	mircea_popescu	a ty pete_dushenski
19:27	pete_dushenski	de nada
19:28	*	BingoBoingo wonders what Dr. Foreskin is up to these days
19:31	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506053 << the latest point being the important point.
19:31	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 19:13 asciilifeform: cheap universal digital radio drives snooping costs to astronomical heights, and threatens to de-emphasize centralized telco antennae
19:31	pete_dushenski	another q for tmsr : any recommendations for linux-cpanel webhosts that don't roll over to social engineering attempts ?
		↖
19:31	mircea_popescu	for all the effort so far wasted into creating said antennae in bitcoin ; it'd be lulzy if they just lose the extant ones in telecom
		↖
19:32	mircea_popescu	pete_dushenski maybe try thr cock.li fellow ?
19:32	mircea_popescu	vc <
19:33	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506058 << dominatrix getting tied up ? wtf is this nonsense anyway.
19:33	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 19:15 pete_dushenski: "“I am looking to weed out police and crazies,” she said. She estimates that only one in four potential customers ultimately passes. Those who do win some time with a professional escort/dominatrix, but it comes at a hefty price: Each hour can cost up to $800, and Rita’s cut is 30%." << steep!
19:35	pete_dushenski	;;seen vc
19:35	gribble	vc was last seen in #trilema 5 weeks, 2 days, 4 hours, 45 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <vc> Framedragger: I'm cool with port scans, neither me nor my parent host cares
19:36	pete_dushenski	has anyone here used cock.li ? please to share experience if so
		↖
19:37	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506127 << lol. he sounds like the man to build an ark tho.
19:37	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 19:49 asciilifeform makes note to self not to buy boatz from BingoBoingo
19:39	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506153 << what's the advantage i dun get it ?
		↖
19:39	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 20:09 Framedragger: wonder what tmsr thinks of ipython notebooks. basically you go to website and are presented with python interpreter, and a ready-made list of commands for graphing, doing stats etc. thinking of doing one of these for some initial ssh keyset analysis. nothing too serious at all
19:41	BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: What is an ark but a boat that is actually plumbed and wired like a structure and not some duct taped sea gypsy trailer?
19:42	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506210 << i have no idea why "scientific computing" on the c machine would use anything but c slowly mutating into asm, but then again that's me.
		↖
19:42	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 20:44 phf: you look at ipython code now, read tutorials and you think to yourself "oh this makes sense, it is nice", but over the course of 5 years scientific computing with python went through 3 or 4 different suits. that's an unreasonable amount of cognitive overhead, considering that mathematica now supports all the same primitives that mathemaica in '95 did
19:42	mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo quite exactly ; spoken like a true noah.
19:42	BingoBoingo	40 PSI to the showerhead or bust!
19:42	BingoBoingo	like most hoses would eventually
19:45	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506249 << 20 year only takes us to 96, which isn't really that far behind. i'd wager about 50% of c code currently doing anything useful was written in the 90s.
		↖
19:45	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 21:03 phf: pascal, less so than above languages, but still more so than even C, since it has a standard notion of pascal machine. C can do 20 year old code, but within some narrow scope of posix, or more like "unix"
19:46	BingoBoingo	Anyways the best land ark is probably going to be one of the many urban brick former Roman Catholic churches on the real estate market. Amenable to fortification.
19:46	BingoBoingo	Also walled courtyard
19:48	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506550 << slow scripting langs are used for non-speedcritical portions for the same reason the ~entire program~ is not in asm.
19:48	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 23:42 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506210 << i have no idea why "scientific computing" on the c machine would use anything but c slowly mutating into asm, but then again that's me.
19:49	mircea_popescu	aha
19:49	asciilifeform	likewise 'scientific computing' is many things to many people - it is not always 'trillion long divisions before tuesday'
19:50	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506555 << this is not only accurate, but it is closer to 90% in my experience than 50.
19:50	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 23:45 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506249 << 20 year only takes us to 96, which isn't really that far behind. i'd wager about 50% of c code currently doing anything useful was written in the 90s.
19:50	mircea_popescu	but the coupla projects of scientific computing i observed, the phases were readily distinguishable : 1. people are excited, they loudly choose "best" hot new stuff, pass along napkin sketches ; 2. the super-duper shit runs into more wrinkles than it's worth, kids are all depresed. at this point the project either dies or management intervenes, gets wizard, wizard takes a weeklong look at it, decides "on the basis of consider
19:50	mircea_popescu	ations etc" c is the right tool. strangely, the matter is always considered properly and in context, yet the result always the same.
19:51	asciilifeform	if you subtract obvious drepperisms, 'comment commits' by genderfucks, etc. - you end up with circa-'90s mass every time.
		↖
19:51	mircea_popescu	at this point, project either delivers and is done or takes on life of own. if takes on life, then 3. more wizards are added, they slowly asm-ify the loops, inside out.
		↖ ↖
19:51	mircea_popescu	ten-ish years in the thing's about 1/3 push pop ret
19:52	asciilifeform	this was egregiously true in '90s game console market.
19:52	mircea_popescu	also , yes. gaming console really very much like science.
19:52	asciilifeform	(which is not 'scientific' in the usual sense but plenty of tight physics code)
19:52	mircea_popescu	exactly. not "scientific" but now do all this maths.
19:52	asciilifeform	my brother spent most of the '90s hand-massaging the 3dtronz.
19:53	asciilifeform	sega, in particular, shipped some mighty weird hardware.
19:54	*	mircea_popescu recalls reading a twenty five line of ret once, throwing hands up, leaving the matter to others.
19:55	asciilifeform	lel that does not sound like a trick of the competent
19:55	asciilifeform	but a fudge of the inept
19:55	asciilifeform	something like a nop sled in reverse
19:55	mircea_popescu	figuring out which was the case was not something i wanted to get involved in.
19:55	asciilifeform	'i have no idea where i will land so i wanna ret'
19:56	mircea_popescu	"probably stupid, possibly not, and we're dealing with highly selected folks. fuck."
19:56	asciilifeform	there are machines where ret (or similar) takes an operand, and you can make a jump table that way
19:56	mircea_popescu	well yes. ret <number>
19:56	asciilifeform	e.g., pic16xxx
19:56	asciilifeform	(in fact retlw is the ~only~ way to refer to data in rom on that machine)
19:56	mircea_popescu	iirc ret 2 just moves stack pointer 2 words.
19:56	asciilifeform	on pc aha
19:57	asciilifeform	http://x86.renejeschke.de/html/file_module_x86_id_280.html
19:58	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506537 << if i want to send a packet to my next door neighbour, and it has to go through a station 3km away, it is idiocy
19:58	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 23:31 mircea_popescu: for all the effort so far wasted into creating said antennae in bitcoin ; it'd be lulzy if they just lose the extant ones in telecom
19:58	asciilifeform	and yet this is what we have on 100% of planet.
19:58	asciilifeform	(with possible exception of '90s romania)
19:59	mircea_popescu	~nobody wants to send packet to next door neigbour
19:59	mircea_popescu	on average distance is, iirc, to the tune of 1k miles.
19:59	asciilifeform	aaaactually i send quite a few packetz a few km back'n'forth.
19:59	asciilifeform	and have, for decades.
19:59	mircea_popescu	sure, and your neighbour sends them to china. aaanyway.
20:00	asciilifeform	merely pointing out that the centralized chokepoints are not physically necessary.
20:00	asciilifeform	and that the star topology of telecom - is enforced.
20:00	asciilifeform	rather than naturally occuring.
20:00	mircea_popescu	it is not directly obvious, nor a foregone conclusion, if a reimplementation of today's telecom as mesh network would be less expensive in terms of used bw.
20:01	asciilifeform	in the case of 'sheeple' tuning in to bbc/fox noose/etc. -- doubtlessly MORE expensive.
20:01	asciilifeform	so there is ~0 financial pressure in that direction.
20:01	mircea_popescu	well, comparisons are comparisons. take today's internet, gendankenexperiment as mesh, measure.
20:02	asciilifeform	today's internet - 'madness'. 1990 internet - nearly ~was~ a mesh.
20:02	asciilifeform	just not radio.
20:02	mircea_popescu	well...
20:02	asciilifeform	~tomorrow's~ internet is http://www.loper-os.org/?p=208 .
20:03	asciilifeform	but i for one have 0 interest in preserving the 'internet is a cheaper way to broadcast bbc' thing.
20:03	asciilifeform	those folks ought to be watching tv.
20:03	mircea_popescu	so how are people going to read trilema ?
20:04	asciilifeform	via gossipd.
20:04	asciilifeform	which incidentally is also how they will know that they are in fact reading trilema.
20:04	asciilifeform	and not usgilema.
20:04	asciilifeform	(at present time they have no such assurance)
20:05	mircea_popescu	ya well.
20:06	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506536 << pray tell pete_dushenski , for what do you need the cpanel abortion ?
20:06	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 23:31 pete_dushenski: another q for tmsr : any recommendations for linux-cpanel webhosts that don't roll over to social engineering attempts ?
20:06	asciilifeform	i tried to use it once, it reminded me of those keyboards they widely sold to 'INTERNET!1111' lusers of the '90s, with 'pizza' and 'beer order' buttons
20:07	asciilifeform	'press for mooosik store'
20:07	asciilifeform	'press for lolcat'
20:08	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506517 << usg has been maniacally afraid of this kind of thing for decades, to the point that not only wh, but semi-abandoned army reserve shithole not far from where i live, is surrounded by 'bollard' barriers, spikes, etc.
20:08	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 23:14 pete_dushenski: next thing you know an autonomous car will drive a trunkfull of c4 into the white house
20:08	asciilifeform	or see pictures of a u.s. embassy build in past 20y, just about anywhere.
20:08	asciilifeform	same idea.
20:08	asciilifeform	they ~know~ that they are a blight, and that folks will try to deal with'em.
20:09	asciilifeform	in whatever way their piddling orc tech permits.
20:09	asciilifeform	the bollard is ~quintessentially~ american, in my mind, the way the onion dome is ~quintessentially~ russian in typical anglo head.
20:10	mircea_popescu	anyway, garden hose not even a bad idea for the intended junkyard flatbottom. exactly for reason of "people throw out a mile of punctured once garden hose"
20:10	asciilifeform	http://americanconcrete.com/commercial/barriers/Jersey-Barrier.jpg << subj.
20:10	mircea_popescu	i cut mine, but then again i was the only one on the street.
20:11	asciilifeform	mine's got what must be metres of tape on it.
20:16	pete_dushenski	asciilifeform: cpanel is useful for lazy idjits like me to ban ips, make back-ups, check traffic figs, and so on and so forth. it might not be lynx-friendly but i'm also unpersuaded that it's 'evil that must burn tonight'.
		↖
20:17	BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: America's love of Bollards is a British import.
20:17	asciilifeform	pete_dushenski: it makes for an exceedingly painful time doing anything for which there is not a ready button.
20:18	pete_dushenski	asciilifeform: it'll be interesting to see what lengths usg will go to stop trunkfull of c4 in... quadcopter. straps lazer cannons to top of bollard perhaps.
20:18	mats	thats stupid
20:18	mats	why not mortar?
20:18	asciilifeform	pete_dushenski: quadcopter that can lift so much as a frag, is rarity.
20:18	asciilifeform	pete_dushenski: esp. if you want any kind of range.
20:19	pete_dushenski	ya, 10lbs seems to be about tops for quadcopter payload eh
20:19	asciilifeform	(if one were to blow up today, the circle in which police would know to look for the operator, is not large.)
		↖
20:19	mats	'dji phantom 4' can barely lift 1.8kg
20:20	mats	will fall over in a reasonable wind
20:20	pete_dushenski	asciilifeform: if working remotely from car, that circle expands considerably. and quickly.
20:20	asciilifeform	pete_dushenski: remotely over what ?
20:20	asciilifeform	own satellite ?
20:20	pete_dushenski	mats: see kittyhawk
20:20	mats	and the thing costs ~1k
20:20	asciilifeform	has pete_dushenski flown even a toy quadcopter? any idea of the kind of 'ping time' you need to actually keep the thing upright ?
20:21	pete_dushenski	mats: $4.5k for that one.
20:21	mats	1.8kg of c4 is a decent payload, yes, but again why not mortar?
		↖
20:21	pete_dushenski	asciilifeform: /me has not. friends have plently.
20:21	asciilifeform	pete_dushenski: get thee to a toy store
20:21	mats	flight time isn't going to be more than 4-5 mins, if you're lucky
20:22	pete_dushenski	asciilifeform: or friend's house!
20:22	asciilifeform	mats: aha, hence http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-20#1506643 .
20:22	a111	Logged on 2016-07-20 00:19 asciilifeform: (if one were to blow up today, the circle in which police would know to look for the operator, is not large.)
20:23	pete_dushenski	speaking of other shit that sounds more practical than it is, http://www.gizmag.com/golf-cart-jetpack/44413/
20:23	asciilifeform	cheap unmanned guyfawkestrons are nothing new, consider http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov6/15.html , written in late '70s.
20:23	asciilifeform	'On 12 August, at 0558 local time, a van comes to a halt on the vast empty parking lot in front of a supermarket in Washington. Three men open the doors of the van, roll out the fuselage of a light aircraft and attach its wings. A minute later its motor bursts into life. The plane takes off and disappears into the sky. It has no pilot. It is controlled by radio with the aid of very simple instruments, only slightly more complicated t
20:23	asciilifeform	han those used by model aircraft enthusiasts. The plane climbs to about 200 metres and immediately begins to descend in the direction of the White House. A minute later a mighty explosion shakes the capital of the United States. The screaming of sirens on police cars, fire engines and ambulances fills the city.'
20:24	asciilifeform	no high tech involved.
20:24	asciilifeform	if anyone genuinely cared, these would be a regular thing already.
20:24	asciilifeform	like car bombs were in ireland.
		↖
20:24	mats	use the ol' taliban trick. emplace mortar tube, rig with dry ice mechanism that fires when it dissipates enough so you're not around to get hosed by arty fire guided by a 'Boomerang' fire locator
20:25	asciilifeform	the irish had an interesting mortar, made wholly from old compressed gas bottles
20:25	asciilifeform	also self-timed.
20:25	asciilifeform	it is an old field, worked to death.
20:26	mats	fwiw, i hear the boomerang is shit in the field
20:26	mats	folks turn em off, usually, because of false positives
20:26	asciilifeform	mats: even baltimore police dept. uses similar item.
20:26	asciilifeform	it is cheap.
20:26	mats	and orcs pop off rounds for virtually any reason anyway, so why bother
20:26	asciilifeform	they have'em permanently mounted on light poles.
20:27	mats	pete_dushenski has a few things to learn about insurgency
20:28	asciilifeform	vendor's www: 'Boomerang pinpoints the shooter’s location of incoming small arms fire. Boomerang uses passive acoustic detection and computer-based signal processing to locate a shooter in less than a second.'
20:28	asciilifeform	30 m ?!!
20:28	asciilifeform	worse than i thought, even.
20:28	mats	quadcopter is just ludicrously expensive to use for payload delivery unfortunately
20:28	asciilifeform	mats: fighters in donbass are using toy choppers to deliver frags, with mixed results
		↖
20:29	mats	and can be owned over the air if they're not autonomous
20:29	asciilifeform	aha, or simply jammed
20:29	mats	betcha WH has jammers that'll force your toy into wutever preprogrammed path you had
		↖
20:29	asciilifeform	incidentally you can detect a convoy of usg brass from miles away by the loud jammers.
20:29	mats	rite
20:29	asciilifeform	no prizes what this suggests to folks building usg-seeking machinery.
20:30	asciilifeform	incidentally http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-20#1506685 is another reason behind http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-19#1506052
20:30	a111	Logged on 2016-07-19 19:12 asciilifeform: at any rate, don't expect usg to surrender in their war against general-purpose radio.
20:30	a111	Logged on 2016-07-20 00:29 mats: betcha WH has jammers that'll force your toy into wutever preprogrammed path you had
20:34	mats	i don't remember the name of the system, but i think there is integration between 'paladin' arty and 'boomerang'
20:34	asciilifeform	i will note that usg ~is~ sufficiently frightened of toy flying machines, that they were entirely banned in washington d.c.
		↖
20:34	asciilifeform	and even surrounding towns
20:35	asciilifeform	there is an ongoing lawsuit re the legality of said ban (it was administrative, rather than act of congress), if diametric is awake he might clarify
20:35	asciilifeform	but meanwhile - ban
20:35	mats	have heard some tales about amateur insurgents getting stomped ~2s after launching mortar
20:35	asciilifeform	there are even street signs, with crossed-out toy chopper.
20:35	mats	because 'paladin' immediately returns fire. squish.
20:36	asciilifeform	mats: this is sorta the appeal of munitions that don't travel in straight lines or simple parabola or whatever other geometric figure
20:36	asciilifeform	e.g., toy flyers.
20:36	mats	kinda neat. /wants his own automated orc stomping sentry gun
20:38	asciilifeform	picture a frag that, launched, spends a week or so hopping between treetops until it is told (via whatever custom radio) that your position is nearby, at which point it simply falls on you.
20:38	asciilifeform	or it simply finds you based on the jammer output.
20:40	asciilifeform	or, in a city, a mine could spend years or decades buried in pavement, waiting for 'customer'
20:40	asciilifeform	plenty of possibilities with modern tech.
20:40	mats	sounds over-engineered
20:40	asciilifeform	depends on who is trying to do in whom, neh ?
20:40	asciilifeform	is icbm also 'overengineered' ?
20:40	mats	following jammer doesn't enable maximum casualties
20:41	asciilifeform	in the contemplated picture, you need precisely 1 casualty.
20:41	mats	you gonna bomb their transmitter?
20:42	asciilifeform	iirc the recent custom is to have one in ~every truck.
20:42	mats	they're usually located on top of the vehicle, so thats better than e.g. manhole cover but not by a lot
20:42	asciilifeform	not even necessary to explode, there are other uses, to the opponent, for knowing exactly where the convoy is
20:42	mats	i wonder if usg limos have v-hull
20:43	asciilifeform	the one commonly seen, does not.
20:44	mats	well i'm much enjoying going through the mental exercise of attacking a convoy
20:45	asciilifeform	usg brass are quite well defended against the expected adversary: plebes with pea shooters, bricks, etc.
20:45	asciilifeform	folks with actual resources do not go around hunting'em for the same reason the typical hunter does not go to shoot the lion in the zoo.
20:47	asciilifeform	or, more presely, cow in the farm.
20:47	asciilifeform	*precisely
20:47	asciilifeform	the cow is already where the farmer wants it.
20:47	mats	if it was easy, folks would go there instead of massacring cinemagoers
		↖
20:48	asciilifeform	aha.
20:48	asciilifeform	so it is kept just short of easy.
20:48	asciilifeform	contrary to popular belief, not very much is spent on it.
20:49	asciilifeform	if the monkey dies, what will happen ? he will be replaced with identical monkey.
20:49	asciilifeform	there is no shortage of monkeys in the trees.
20:51	asciilifeform	the actual function of the black limos, ss jeeps, etc. is roughly same as roman lictors:
20:51	asciilifeform	to showcase the dominance of the throne
20:52	asciilifeform	which is why they kick folks out of restaurants when dick cheney or his latest incarnation drives by, etc.
20:52	asciilifeform	nothing to do with mad bomberz.
20:52	asciilifeform	everything to do with transfixed slack-jawed sheeple aaahing over the 'majesty'
20:59	asciilifeform	fact is, there ARE NO phreeedom phighterz in usaschwitz. which is why they conscript the occasional illiterate orc immigrant to play 't3rr0r111st!111' on tv.
21:00	asciilifeform	folks raised without a warm place to shit, much less trust fund, with ~correct picture of self-worth and ready to meet with allah at age 17, are a natural resource like any other. and it simply does not grow in north america.
21:00	asciilifeform	presently.
21:00	mats	thats not true at all
21:01	mats	there are many domestic terrorists living out a sentence in a fed clink
21:01	asciilifeform	see the part with 'played on tv'
21:01	asciilifeform	the new york death ray fella, being the prime example.
21:01	mats	lots in florence, co, and terra haute, in
21:01	asciilifeform	he, and a few hundred similar great artistes, are in the clinks.
21:02	asciilifeform	their production is one of the missions of the 'national security' industry.
21:02	asciilifeform	$s new york death ray
21:02	a111	15 results for "new york death ray", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=new%20york%20death%20ray
21:02	mats	i dunno whats with you and arbitrarily removing agency from wutevers in discussion
21:02	asciilifeform	imbeciles who cannot spell own name, or describe what kind of ray they will supposedly shoot from the raygun that nice totally-not-fbi-provocateur sold them in back alley, are not agents.
21:03	asciilifeform	they have no agency
21:03	mats	its fundamentally unknowable, sure, how many gru assets are in a clink, yes
21:03	asciilifeform	any more than a sea slug has.
21:03	asciilifeform	mats: i know of at least 1, he was traded recently, name escapes me
21:03	asciilifeform	was betrayed by typical 1990s 'colonel with apartment in florida'
21:04	mats	theres a lot more convicted artistes in us than cuba
21:04	asciilifeform	more than in zimbabwe also, what of it ?
21:04	mats	~500 iirc
21:05	mats	i'm specifically referring to folks interned at gitmo
21:05	asciilifeform	last i heard gitmo was a warehouse for inconvenient pow, rather than domestic whatevers.
21:06	asciilifeform	(though i have fundamentally nfi who is ACTUALLY kept there, for all i know it is folks who used pgp key that had too many bitz)
21:06	mats	not sure exactly how it gets decided, but flip side, Zacarias Moussaoui is serving his sentence in florence rather than gitmo
21:06	asciilifeform	possibly because was picked up in usa ?
21:06	asciilifeform	or do i have him mixed with another
21:07	mats	yes, they found him with 747 manuals
21:07	mats	tsarnaev and reid are also at florence
21:08	asciilifeform	if he had been found in afghan, would have been shot on the cheap, but instead was used as feedstock for the quite important 'we caught a domestic вредитель !1111' ritual.
21:09	asciilifeform	the key here is that these folk dun occur naturally in the necessary numbers. hence, they are created.
21:09	asciilifeform	as per http://btcbase.org/log/2014-04-13#623044 .
21:09	a111	Logged on 2014-04-13 22:27 asciilifeform: the 'a) wanna buy strela? b) fuck off c) really, dontcha? b) ok sure c) off to jail' thing has been going so long that it doesn't even make national news every time now.
21:12	asciilifeform	provocateurs are dirt-cheap. we even had one here, http://btcbase.org/log/2015-12-08#1338891
21:12	a111	Logged on 2015-12-08 15:31 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-12-2015#1338844 << every word of this is applicable in its entirety to modern stoolies and provocateurs, e.g., 'the_scourge' from last year
21:12	mats	not sure i agree. there's a massacre every day of the year now
21:12	asciilifeform	^ the_scourge tried to get ~me~ interested in 'military resistance to usg'
21:12	asciilifeform	along with boatload of shit crypto
21:12	mats	oh, i apologize for bringing him in here then
21:12	asciilifeform	i do wonder where you found him.
21:13	mats	random guy in a chan i idle in
21:13	asciilifeform	must be great place.
21:14	asciilifeform	has he tried to sell you a death ray yet ?
21:14	mats	haven't seen the nick in a few years, i tried my hand at bringing folks into the fold, didn't work out
21:14	asciilifeform	the thing that i found shocking was... the sheer ham-fistedness.
21:15	asciilifeform	if i were his handler, and read, as i would read, the log, i would have sacked him.
21:15	asciilifeform	demoted, to junior dogcatcher.
21:15	mats	we had some pms but they are so utterly unremarkable idk what was even said
21:15	asciilifeform	ditto ninjashitgun.
21:15	asciilifeform	and buncha other dopes whose names escape me.
21:15	asciilifeform	same snore every time.
21:16	mats	i really gotta stop deleting my pm archives
21:16	mats	ninjashogun tried some shenanigans also
21:16	asciilifeform	he was entertainingly stupid, but only from the (to me) novelty
21:16	mats	and whined to me about having his good naem tarnished on hacka nyooz
		↖
21:17	asciilifeform	entertaining-stupid is a self-limiting thing. eventually it turns into simply stupid.
21:18	asciilifeform	it was a very strange experience, like having a contract killer sent for you who worked his whole life in a slaughterhouse and literally expects you to behave EXACTLY like cow, to simply walk up to where he has the ~stationary~ stun hammer
		↖
21:18	asciilifeform	and get indignant and flustered if you for some reason do not.
21:19	mats	i get the sense that he was really just out to make money, to sucker an engineer into slaving for him
21:20	asciilifeform	the choice of subject matter, in that case, was quite peculiar.
21:20	mats	just one of 1,000 dummies i've met from the valley
21:20	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-20#1506653 << well, he didn't live in israel, i guess. anyway, mats has it, mortar is by far the cheapest.
21:20	a111	Logged on 2016-07-20 00:21 mats: 1.8kg of c4 is a decent payload, yes, but again why not mortar?
21:21	mircea_popescu	no good answer to it, either.
21:22	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-20#1506666 << irish is a nation. american is not.
21:22	a111	Logged on 2016-07-20 00:24 asciilifeform: like car bombs were in ireland.
21:23	asciilifeform	iraq not a nation either
21:23	asciilifeform	but did ok.
21:23	asciilifeform	with respect to irishing.
21:23	mats	don't remember if i mentioned this, but a friend of mine that works at cisco says their calea team is expanding the scope of their work beyond what's in the letter of the law
21:23	mats	thought that was interesting.
21:24	asciilifeform	mats: the 'letter of the law' was interpreted as 'anally inspect every arse on planet' for decades now.
21:24	asciilifeform	so not nyooz.
21:24	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-20#1506682 << ~the only use for the thing is to get it into the airvent of something.
21:24	a111	Logged on 2016-07-20 00:28 asciilifeform: mats: fighters in donbass are using toy choppers to deliver frags, with mixed results
21:24	asciilifeform	consider the act for which, supposedly, nixon was deposed. can you picture president impeached for tapping phones today ?
21:25	mircea_popescu	well, the-woman-that-won't-make-it walked from very similar to nixon's case, so...
21:25	mats	there were several charges involved
21:27	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-20#1506693 << this is more a case of independent powerful career woman hear me roar being petrified someone cares enough to photograph her in the shower.
21:27	a111	Logged on 2016-07-20 00:34 asciilifeform: i will note that usg ~is~ sufficiently frightened of toy flying machines, that they were entirely banned in washington d.c.
21:27	mircea_popescu	this is just about the most self-flattering nonsense ever, but hey.
21:28	asciilifeform	it is a theatrical number, intended to goad would-be 'shoe bomb hopefuls' to the dead end of flying toys from toystore
21:29	asciilifeform	'the treasure is where they put the 'treasure!' sign' -- ~every imbecile ever
21:29	asciilifeform	mats: http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/history/johnson/rnimparticles.htm << which of these is the current monkey not guilty of ?
21:29	asciilifeform	or the last one ?
21:30	asciilifeform	or the one prior ?
21:30	mats	afaik bush and obama didn't go so far as to send thieves into rnc hq
21:30	asciilifeform	they didn't need to.
21:30	asciilifeform	why send thief, when you have key logs, audio, whatever.
21:32	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-20#1506724 << this is kinda dubious. note that people light up gay bars and cineplexes rather than geriatric homes, etc. if they actually wanted maximal body count they'd do the local hospital, but they're not exactly being rational.
21:32	a111	Logged on 2016-07-20 00:47 mats: if it was easy, folks would go there instead of massacring cinemagoers
21:33	asciilifeform	nobody optimized for bodies, or they would torch crowded clubs etc.
21:33	mircea_popescu	not even clear wtf they're optimizing for.
21:33	asciilifeform	for playing out a script helpfully written for them by their masters.
21:34	asciilifeform	that involves, e.g., ~random fire from small-caliber pea shooters, rather than, say, blown bridges
21:34	asciilifeform	for details see tlp.
21:34	asciilifeform	supposing he had not snipped his articles re same.
21:34	asciilifeform	(i have not recently checked.)
21:35	mats	https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lLqHi2f7Ti8/V4bBCyl-P_I/AAAAAAAAoLk/juwG59mwZ10mIyHd_OBOhLwQVBt44VkPwCLcB/s1600/EmployRecessionJun2016.PNG interesting
21:36	mircea_popescu	mats if that figure wasn't coming straight out of an ass, the table might be more interesting.
21:36	asciilifeform	^
21:36	mircea_popescu	but as it is, entirely meaningless to put those on same map, they're not in any sense the same thing
21:36	mats	http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2016/07/update-scariest-jobs-chart-ever.html
21:37	asciilifeform	mats: usg 'employment' figures make 'climate science' look honest.
21:37	asciilifeform	they have ~0 connection to reality.
21:38	mats	beyond the confusion of unemployed and folks who've given up - can you elaborate?
21:38	mircea_popescu	i suppose look into how the data is defined and collected one day when run out of other online entertainment.
21:39	mircea_popescu	nowadays "unemployed" = "number of people who jump through X Y and Z hoops more recently than 2 weeks ago and for not a longer total interval than 11 weeks , and also who aren't in any of these 58 excluded categories. such as "white"."
21:39	asciilifeform	mats: one obvious example - a great many folks never figure in the score at all, because they are 'contractor'
21:39	mircea_popescu	im exagerating, but not by so very much.
21:40	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform also "disabled"
21:40	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu is approximately correct.
21:40	asciilifeform	quite likely not 1 in 10 laid off folk, ever appear in the 'unemployed' column.
21:40	asciilifeform	for any length of time whatsoever.
21:40	asciilifeform	in entire life.
21:41	asciilifeform	old folks, for instance, forced into an early 'catfood diet' retirement, do not
21:41	asciilifeform	because their count as 'retiree'
21:41	asciilifeform	when kicked out for being 65 y.o.
21:41	mircea_popescu	to obtain correct unemployment figure in these circumstances, do (count of all tax returns paying more than 0.4 * 10.5 * 8 * 320 in tax) / (us population as per census).
21:42	mircea_popescu	you'll get a shocking 40%ish which happens to also be correct.
21:42	mircea_popescu	the majority of the us population is not currently employed ; nor has any prospects of ever being employed.
21:42	asciilifeform	lafonde's 'dindus', unsurprisingly, also do not count as 'unemployed'
21:42	asciilifeform	perhaps half of that number ever had so much a ~thought~ of being employed.
		~ 19 minutes ~
22:02	mats	what are these? 0.4 * 10.5 * 8 * 320
		~ 56 minutes ~
22:58	BingoBoingo	$s the_scourge
22:58	a111	199 results for "the_scourge", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=the_scourge
22:59	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: the choicest lulz were in pm
22:59	asciilifeform	as with the earlier ninjaimbecile

---