Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

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00:30 asciilifeform << except where not, lol
00:30 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-22 19:28:34 verisimilitude: Besides, in a purely formal domain, machines truly are better than men in almost every conceivable way.
00:30 dulapbot Logged on 2020-12-02 14:56:27 asciilifeform: btw verisimilitude , this leads naturally into question : pcb routing is ideal fit for machine optimizer. constraints are easily expressed ('don't cross wires'; 'make'em all as short as possible'; 'reduce layers') and 0 intrinsic text involved. pcb routing is still hell. and 0 mov
00:34 asciilifeform << problem aint when verisimilitude fughets how to do long division; problem is when you get to the point where ~nobody even thinks is at all relevant how anyffin worx, because 'has always worked, use $library, will always work errywhere'
00:34 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-22 19:41:45 verisimilitude: I'll admit it took a few minutes for me to recall how to do long-division properly; I usually use ratios, so I've probably not done it in years; does this make me stupid?
00:36 asciilifeform 1st you simply get stagnation, given as nobody will be making qualitative 'jumps' in anyffin w/out a firm grasp of fundamentals.
00:37 asciilifeform then, at some pt, irreversible decay, when even the basic grasp req'd for handling an unexpected problem becomes exotic 'wizardry'
00:37 verisimilitude That happened before we were born, then.
00:38 asciilifeform 'fdiv bug'(tm) was possib. 1 of the 'first swallows of spring', but debatable subj
00:38 asciilifeform the bare fact, imho, rather obv. tho
00:38 verisimilitude But, yes, I've already given thought to how the tool builder has the muscles from work without the tool, but not necessarily his successors.
00:39 verisimilitude One solution is playing without the tools for a while, beforehand.
00:39 asciilifeform sorta what schooling (used to be) about
00:41 verisimilitude Anyone who doesn't decide to learn outside of school was going to be a fool anyway.
00:42 asciilifeform doesn't matter where in particular you learned long division when you were 5yo. so long as it doesn't consist of 'press this button'
00:43 asciilifeform ( nor is it strictly about 'what'll you do if the button aint connected', either )
00:43 verisimilitude What those fictional fools truly forgot is how to think at all.
00:44 asciilifeform see e.g.
00:45 asciilifeform ' Reality is, roughly speaking, analog. You can convert an analog world to something digital, but when this happens, it is rare to use more than 16 bits. 8-12 is more typical. In most cases, the mantissa of your “real number” only has a few actual bits of information in it. Slide rules acknowledge this fact. You can see it on the physical rules themselves, which are essentially logarithm tables. You don’t get 64
00:45 asciilifeform bit precision floats in your slide rule at any point in the calculation, just like in “real life.” Propagating around 64 bit results can be useful at times, particularly when running a calculation which iterates many times, but it is more the exception that you really want this extra precision, and you could fool yourself with it on a calculator/computer. You can’t make this mistake using a slide rule. The slid
00:45 asciilifeform e rule trains you to think about what numbers corresponding to physical reality means. Sure, I don’t want to do my book keeping or HFT time coordinate on a slide rule; those are basically integer problems (on a computer) where the bits all mean something important. But in roughing out the design for a wing or jet turbine blade, or even in calculating a p-value those extra bits absolutely don’t mean anything. Slide
00:45 asciilifeform rules give 2-3 significant decimal digits of precision. When calculating things involving matter, that’s about right. You can design things made out of matter which require more significant digits, but it’s very likely a bad design if you do...'
00:46 verisimilitude Learning Latin re-taught me on why we even have many units of measurement.
00:47 verisimilitude It's so common nowadays to just use billions or trillions of whatever.
00:47 asciilifeform hyperinflation will do that, lol
00:47 verisimilitude With Roman numerals, this isn't an option, but making new units and counting those instead works.
00:48 asciilifeform old-style jp system -- similar
00:50 vex did romans ever visit japan? is that where ramen came from?
00:51 asciilifeform lol
00:51 verisimilitude No.
00:51 verisimilitude Ramen is Chinese, vex.
01:01 vex I really should drag my arse up there one day, I'm quite sure I won't know what the fuck is going on.
01:06 vex complet namasensei is about an 8 hour watch. coincides with flight time. meybe I'd be alright
01:10 vex can you smoke in bars there?
01:12 vex almost certainly
01:23 vex what does one even do on a visit to japan? walk up mount fuji without a joint and write a haiku about the futility of life?
01:28 vex prolly that, also walk backstreets while people look
01:30 vex i'm guessing there's gonna be interesting shi to see wherever one goes
01:32 vex basic lattitude adjustment; I needn't 'ven wind my watch
01:35 vex mebbe hit up a library or two
01:38 vex Anyone know how to ask -can I haz microfiche access- in .jp?
01:47 vex um. can u read japan?
01:54 shinohai << It's a land of awesum sports cars (The non-Douchesenski types) so live a little and take one for a tear around the mountains.
01:54 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-22 21:21:25 vex: what does one even do on a visit to japan? walk up mount fuji without a joint and write a haiku about the futility of life?
01:55 vex what else to hire than a douche?
01:55 shinohai That's after you've blown through a set of pilot sports and need the release.
01:56 vex need any mazda parts?
01:57 vex I ain't renting shit. train is fast enough
01:59 vex mebbe I borrow a kawasaki, but this is only a dream
02:00 vex do you know shinohai, can a gaijin walk in and buy a kawasaki?
02:01 mats ramen is japanese
02:01 vex ^ i'm with mats
02:02 mats same noodles done differently
02:05 vex have you been to japan mats?
02:07 mats no
02:07 vex me neither
02:07 mats fuck em
02:09 vex they were alone for 1000 years or something right?
02:09 mats if only that were the case
02:10 vex School us
02:10 mats america should have dropped four bombs instead of two
02:10 vex ouch
02:11 mats some real history right there
02:11 vex end of lesson?
02:17 vex regarding divergent evolution, I'll let you know; kangaroos aren't so tuff. it's basicly a big floor possum
02:23 asciilifeform mats: iirc they had 3 bombs in stock, total
02:24 vex one wonders what would've been mats third target
02:25 asciilifeform mats: what've the 'japs' done to you outta curiosity ? ( and please let the answr not be 'nanking beheading contest', lol. somehow folx fixate on specific weapons , where ohnoez, beheadings, but brits starving ireland or india to over9000x the count somehow a++ and evokes ~no measurable grudgewank today )
02:26 vex the dude is chinese, there is ancient `beef'
02:26 asciilifeform pretty recent beef iirc
02:28 vex don't bomb kawasaki
02:28 asciilifeform jp picked up euro tech , while cn was busy under empress cixi 'railroads banned, trains make noise' etc. then picked up 'wai not us also have colonies' and gave white man best 'run for the money' to date.
02:29 asciilifeform hence, as asciilifeform suspects, the resentment. (historically jp was backwater, like korea, not worth 'time of day' from cn pov)
02:31 asciilifeform ( today again backwater. reich 'financialization' did what the bombs could not... )
02:31 dulapbot (trilema) 2018-11-30 asciilifeform: jp was a hair's width away from picking up the torch that anglotardistan dropped, and anglos knew this, and so in late '80s they engineered an economic implosion for'em
02:33 asciilifeform final 'control shot in the head' was when usg engineered fukushimization (and 'denuclearization') for'em
02:33 vex the industrial revolution really set time on a fast track
02:35 vex ask all your ancestores where to set the time machine. a resounding 2022
02:39 mats japan is a servant to the white man
02:39 mats the most loyal of their foreign dogs
02:41 vex have you got that genetic unique where you get red in the face mats?
02:47 mats whats with all the biographical questions smiley
02:50 vex mats with the flush
02:59 asciilifeform mats: today -- old, anemic servant. wasn't always
03:00 vex I raise you somwe post war cinema
03:00 asciilifeform ( kr currently the young, energetic servant )
03:02 phf japan built some cool technology
03:03 asciilifeform defo. and not merely '80s cyberpunk' but as early as '30s was on cutting edge of physics etc
03:03 phf i made a bunch of points about japan in old logs, still sticking by them e.g.
03:03 dulapbot (trilema) 2018-01-16 phf: i believe that in japan land they still have sane hardware produced like that, except they run windows on top of it. some bossman had ritual sake with bill gates (matching honor!) 40 years ago, and since then every japan machine has windows on it
03:03 asciilifeform by some accts, worked out correct (unlike germany's) scheme for tehbomb, in '43-44
03:04 mats you're right
03:04 asciilifeform phf: can't comment re what produced there nao, but the '90s specimens in asciilifeform's collection still impress him
03:05 mats i wonder how china manages demographic collapse
03:06 * asciilifeform from 'current era' has only the lulzy 'king jim dm30', and thought was mighty cool until the rubber legs liquified, lol
03:06 mats japan seems to have trouble with increasing immigration
03:07 asciilifeform ( subj. loong ago outta print )
03:07 asciilifeform mats: from where ?
03:07 phf
03:07 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-06-20 phf: the last asian men all committed seppuku when japan lost in world war ii. yukio mishima, a homosexual writer of some repute was so distressed by there not being any men anymore, he tried to organize a coup to restate imperial power and bushido, with predictable results
03:07 mats like in general, no?
03:08 asciilifeform mats: possibly asciilifeform misparsed sentence lol
03:08 mats my fault
03:09 phf this is specifically re present time hardware
03:09 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-06-19 phf: japanese products for american market are all made in china. they are bigger, clunkier and cheaper. authentic japanese item almost always looks and feels more compact, but to acquire one you have to go to weeb websites, or try to wade through export sites with huge markups
03:09 * asciilifeform not subscribes to 'ohnoez demography' pov: a 1940s or even 1800s population is a-ok if you aint aboutta play in a trench warfare meat contest w/ anybody
03:09 phf
03:09 dulapbot (trilema) 2016-06-19 phf: i was actually comparing a zojirushi rice cooker that i bought from amazon to the one my jap friend brought from motherland. it's sort of like is somebody designed an item that's supposed to look identical from the distance, but has lower resolution upon closer inspection. missing features, BIG buttons and less of them, cheaper rougher molding. it's hilarious
03:09 asciilifeform phf: aha, noticed this diff, is usually apparent to naked eye
03:10 asciilifeform troo jp iron feels, well, denser, and mechanically 'fits together' (cuz for this not enuff to have injection mold, but need 'binning' of parts)
03:11 asciilifeform 'binning' is necessarily a human-powered process (and need , not 'coolies' but the stereotypical sort of conscientious folx who described in e.g. sov depictions of jp industry in late '80s )
03:18 vex we do allway end up with the binnables
03:19 vex binnacles too
03:21 asciilifeform 'The Parrot and the Carrot one may easily confound, / They’re very much alike in looks and similar in sound...'(tm)(r)(c)(r.w.wood)
03:24 vex ;search dell precision
03:25 phf vex:
03:27 vex i did love the celtic vision as prise for uptime
03:29 vex i'm building a boat that'll take a coupla ponies anywher
03:32 vex steel is about to get super expensive
03:40 vex
~ 21 minutes ~
04:02 vex
04:04 vex ever bin to jail?
04:07 phf i've only been to кпз
04:07 vex can u trnslate pls?
04:08 phf holding cell
04:08 vex ah]
04:08 phf aparently now it has new term in ru, ИВС (same meaning though)
04:09 vex wer're u too drunk for life?
04:09 phf no, for urban exploring
04:10 phf of course joke in the 90s was "beats getting shot"
04:12 vex I bought a porno mag in paris at the newsagent just b4 the metro\
04:12 phf that's haram my man, 50 lashes
04:12 vex not then
04:14 vex still got it. helfty skulls interlaced dvd
04:18 vex can't walk through melbourne tho
04:22 phf oh is it because melbourne is under covid lockdown?
04:23 vex they were. the citizens went wild. no longer left
04:24 phf citizens no longer left? is it because all the protestors got relocated to quarantine camps?
04:25 vex i'm not really attuned to th ecommon man
04:29 vex i have thats a lie
04:32 vex strichty scheme
~ 14 hours 10 minutes ~
18:42 phf state of hardware: can't find suzyq cable anywhere, and whatever random forums i come across when googling all say "why you even want to install custom linux on your chromebook when chromeos now has linux emulation layer!!"
18:43 asciilifeform phf: thought you were using asciilifeform's cable ( takes maybe 15min to bake from standard usbc breakout pcb )
18:43 asciilifeform worx 100%
18:45 asciilifeform needs only 1) breakout board 2) 2 x 5.1k resistors ( in picture, can see that asciilifeform didn't have'em handy, used old trimpots, lol ) 3) a usb 'b' cable (who doesn't have a pile of these)
18:46 phf asciilifeform: i made a bad mistake, when going to russia last year took more than half of my electronics bits with me (i've had better chance working on that kind of stuff there, because still has "radioshack", real hackerspace < 30min, etc) ended up forgetting to grab any when jumping on return flight
18:46 asciilifeform a
18:46 phf like i can't even find a bag of resistors, though i had a large variety pack, but pretty sure didn't take it to russia :o
18:47 phf i have a solid setup to work on rear axle, smh not so much for small electronics
18:47 * phf is envious of polymaths who can do both without one going by the way side
18:49 asciilifeform phf: if you can get lulazon deliveries in yer backwoods, 1 + 2 + usb 'b' from dumpster + solder
18:49 phf but also what is this dark ages! there's like bazilion chromebooks actively for sale that have cr50 in em. i had some intel asus fall off the back of a truck and i was thinking of setting it up to try out trinque's project
18:49 asciilifeform ( if lost soldering iron, cheapest from ^ or whatever local shop will suffice )
18:50 phf that's the flip side of things, i have nice little hakko here, and while i was trying to buy it in russia discovered that _all_ for sale are chinese knockoffs. very high quality chinese knockoffs, but knockoffs never the less
18:51 * asciilifeform conversely to phf's setup, doesn't yet have 'rear axle'-grade setup, tho working on it..
18:52 * asciilifeform for many yrs used cheapo soldering irons, finally bought proper hakko when needed to affix jtag pins to 100 fg at a time (board house somehow ran outta 2.54mm pinheaders lol)
18:52 phf "can i open your hakko to make sure it's real? -- no you crazy -- if i buy it, open it, and it's chinese knockoff will you accept a return? -- ... it's hakko like technology, man, you want it or not?"
18:54 phf i opened one at garbushka because old man was curious himself, "if you know what to look for", was genuinely surprised that it was a knockoff, sell direct from china for 95% of original price
18:54 * asciilifeform was gonna buy a 'metcal' , even, but could not bring himself to disgorge the dough , not solders quite enuff
18:56 * asciilifeform for almost all solderings in fact uses a quite plebian 'weller' that runs off 3 x 'aa' battery. heats up in ~15sec, won't zap finicky ics, adequate for just about anyffin
18:57 asciilifeform ( similar item on lulazon ftr, but afaik sold just about errywhere one can buy cheapo tooling )
18:59 asciilifeform fits in jacket pocket, asciilifeform even took the thing to the dc one time ( fix temp sensor. obv dun 'smoke' in the hall proper, where could set off the halon, instead in the 'board room' , lol )
19:01 asciilifeform phf: rather astonishing that the vendor cable outta print. (afaik it fit not only the cr50 lappies, but various pnojes)
19:02 phf there's a series of chinese irons that run of usb, and have programmable hardware, very popular in russia, can be had for 20$
19:03 asciilifeform for almost all jobs (not involving microscope / smt , or , e.g. desoldering of ancient electrolytics ) it dun matter worth a damn which iron to use, cheapest worx 100% as well as 'rolls royce'
19:04 * asciilifeform even still has the 1 bought , as a boy, in '92 'fresh off boat' at 'rat shack' for 5$
19:05 phf our common bolix acquaintance often times makes a point "why not best tool always", was the one who convinced me that i need hakko
19:06 asciilifeform if you've a house and spacious workshop, then yes wainot hakko or even metcal
19:06 asciilifeform ( the portable things still have their place tho, if you go places )
19:07 asciilifeform at uni , had handy butane-fired thing , could solder on picnic tables where no annoying smoke detectors ( battery-powered irons not commonplace yet then )
19:08 asciilifeform lit with match.
19:11 phf <<
19:11 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-23 14:59:30 phf: there's a series of chinese irons that run of usb, and have programmable hardware, very popular in russia, can be had for 20$
19:12 asciilifeform aaha, seen these in a # of places
19:13 * asciilifeform not sure wai a soldering iron needs '32-bit riscv and 128kb of flash', lol! but if it worx...
19:14 asciilifeform ... prolly just to run the slow-charge for the lithium batt
19:15 * asciilifeform not fond of 'modern' li-ion batts where a pair of 'aa' will do -- they wear out after ~100 charges and then gotta look for a new one, which not always gettable
19:16 asciilifeform whereas 'aa' can buy even in godforsaken argentinistan
19:20 * asciilifeform not in fact soldered anyffin in months, unless, lol, counts water pipes
19:20 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-12 22:41:28 asciilifeform: finally has, lol, hot water in new pad
19:21 phf nor i
19:23 phf tbf even messing with a chromebook is kind of a mistake
19:31 asciilifeform ^ was asciilifeform's conclusion, if recall
19:32 asciilifeform init. draw was 'cheap!!' , ~then~ asciilifeform found the boobytrap, then not satisfied that can be defused meaningfully, ~then~ thing outta print afaik entirely
19:33 * asciilifeform still would like 8-10in. lappy thing that 'emacs for 12hrs' and sleepmodes properly, but 'if wishes were horses' etc
19:44 phf asciilifeform: i don't know what machine is not boobytrapped
~ 31 minutes ~
20:16 asciilifeform phf: is moar of a q 'which 1 obviously mined' vs 'which 1 not known to be', sadly
20:16 * asciilifeform still has ye olde x60, rather long in the tooth, as portable box
20:17 phf "can run emacs for an hour" portable, yes :>
20:17 asciilifeform lol hour is a nostalgic memory. really only runs if plugged into wall
20:18 * asciilifeform gave up on idea of finding chinesium battery for the thing that lasts >coupla dozen cycles
20:18 phf i have maybe one or two that can last about 40 minutes
20:18 asciilifeform mine also ~40m if not 'overly exerting itself'
20:19 asciilifeform annoyingly tends to cut out 'all at 1ce' tho, the '% gauge' seems to be the 1st thing to die in these
20:19 phf hehe
20:20 * asciilifeform in fact owns a batt welder rig , tried restoring x60 batt but hilariously to similar result -- chinesium cells
20:21 asciilifeform there at one pt were such a thing as a decent li ion cell, e.g. asciilifeform's 'toshiba libretto' batt still holds charge, can run for whole hr (and this -- a box circa '98 !!)
20:23 * asciilifeform luvvd that box, x86, ~1kg, no fans of any description, working suspend-to-disk from any os (!). but sadly nearly useless on today's softs.
20:23 dulapbot Logged on 2019-12-06 17:25:59 asciilifeform: 1990s lappies, e.g. 'toshiba libretto', that had bios-powered 'suspend to disk', usually implemented via smm.
20:23 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-30 15:36:08 asciilifeform: has 1 remaining openbsd box -- toshiba 'libretto'. was the 1 and only thing could get reasonably runnable on it, as support for truly ancient irons evaporated from linux long ago
20:23 phf mine just runs dos, daggerfall :>
20:23 * asciilifeform also nao with dos lol
20:24 asciilifeform drives crt a++ via the dock thinger
20:30 asciilifeform phf: x60 in its prime in uruguayistan. was last time the batt sorta worked, lol
20:30 dulapbot (trilema) 2018-10-07 asciilifeform: phf: << subj. no mains socket on that roof.
~ 1 hours 57 minutes ~
22:27 signpost << yeah, tidy statement of what we find in common here, among other things of course.
22:27 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-22 00:49:05 phf: signpost: i like this yarn, but i believe humans have protective mechanism, that monkeys lack: some % of humans have a intentional mutation, will approach the table no matter what. e pur si muove and all that
22:28 verisimilitude That does seem very nice, the proper way to do it.
22:28 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-23 16:20:31 asciilifeform: luvvd that box, x86, ~1kg, no fans of any description, working suspend-to-disk from any os (!). but sadly nearly useless on today's softs.
~ 31 minutes ~
22:59 mats the m1 and m2 series meet most of those requirements
23:01 mats 18h battery life with no fan is pretty nice
23:07 asciilifeform mats: maybe would, but asciilifeform had his fill 'up to neck' of crapple's os yrs ago.
23:07 * asciilifeform not fond of idea where 2-3k$ machine that's 100% 'disposable' on acct of soldered-in ssd, either
23:09 asciilifeform ssd for which they charge, lol, ~4x the usual going rate
23:10 asciilifeform if the thing can't run dulap-gentoo (or rk-gentoo, or equiv.) it's a toy, not a comp
23:12 asciilifeform crapple et al demonstrate that '18h box w/out fans' is physically possible, yes. but nobody makes a usable (for actual work) one, nor, suspect, is anybody aboutta
23:13 mats condolences
23:13 asciilifeform lol
23:13 asciilifeform mats: do you have the new crapple?
23:13 mats yeah, it runs talon voice very quickly
23:13 mats at the same time as a vm
23:14 asciilifeform i.e. emulator of x86 ?
23:14 mats yup lol
23:14 asciilifeform neat
23:15 * asciilifeform still has a crapple in torture room, in fact mostly for running vm's, but is old-style x86 crapple
23:15 mats hm wait, its actually an arm64 windows
23:15 asciilifeform subj
23:15 dulapbot Logged on 2022-05-30 17:29:28 asciilifeform: can't wait to throw that thing out -- it bloats like botulismic tinned can ~erryyr like fucking clockwork, 'needs new battery' despite ~never running off the battery
23:15 asciilifeform a
23:17 asciilifeform in ^ battery hot-glued in, but turned out can be extracted with some effort. in 'm1'/'m2' iirc epoxied...
23:19 asciilifeform 'ipnoje w/ keyboard'. ( and iirc if break the keyboard -- also straight to bin, 'disposable' )
23:20 asciilifeform could say 'they're selling a chromebook for 3k$' but would be a libel against chromebook, where at least no epoxies
23:24 asciilifeform last crapple portable where ssd & battery removable afaik the '15 one.
23:24 asciilifeform asciilifeform's to date eaten 4 batteries and 2 ssd's
23:25 verisimilitude I was thinking more about what a hardware trie would be, and it's just a connection machine.
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