Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2021-09-14 | 2021-09-16 →
02:41 thimbronion Updated the packet structure for alcuin to match 0xFE - I'll post the relavant code soon in case anyone has the time to check it.
02:43 thimbronion *relevant
02:48 signpost thimbronion: yeah I'll fire it up.
02:55 * signpost welcomes bomolochus, is who he says!
02:55 signpost I'll update deedbot when he gets the chance to sign same.
~ 1 hours 6 minutes ~
04:02 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-12#1057822 Yes.
04:02 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-12 22:19:17 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-12#1057793 << soo yer not only asking to double (triple? ntuple? in general case) the req'd amt of bandwidth taken up, but also asking receiver to burn a buncha cpu cycles finding the correct alignment?! all to avoid using checksums?
04:03 verisimilitude http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-12#1057810 I never wrote ``unauthenticated''.
04:03 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-12 22:09:11 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-12#1057805 << it's no optimization of any kind, if yer storing unauthenticated and undecrypted (i.e. can't see the timestamp yet) enemy can fill you to the ears with replayed material
~ 8 hours 42 minutes ~
12:46 PeterL verisimilitude: so you are saying to save both the black and red packet after authentication, which doubles the amount of data stored, but will allow quicker discarding of black packets if somebody tries to flood you with replays?
~ 2 hours 17 minutes ~
15:04 asciilifeform PeterL, verisimilitude : storing a black packet is absolutely pointless (even if you already discovered, by decoding it, that the signature is valid and the timestamp is not stale)
15:04 * asciilifeform thought that this was rather obvious
15:06 asciilifeform the only time you'll ever see a black packet twice+ is during ddos. and i did specify that yer box gotta be able to handle the full decoding procedure at line rate.
15:06 PeterL according to the protocol, you should never see the same black packet twice
15:06 asciilifeform PeterL: not from an actual pest station, no. from ddoser -- yes
15:07 asciilifeform but adding an extra hashism and bufferism for blacks doesn't help -- enemy can simply throw 5years worth of valid but distinct blacks he collected from your isp instead of simply identical
15:07 PeterL and if you can actually decode at line rate, trying to ddos by replaying is pointless
15:07 asciilifeform and then you'll be burning ~more~ cpu to deal with these, than per my specced scheme.
15:07 asciilifeform PeterL: correct.
15:08 asciilifeform ergo black packet is thrown out after decoding (or being proclaimed martian).
15:08 * asciilifeform will bbr
15:08 PeterL so adding a black packet buffer just adds one more check that you don't need
15:09 PeterL well, not just one more check, one more check against everything in the buffer
~ 36 minutes ~
15:45 asciilifeform PeterL: correct
~ 37 minutes ~
16:22 mats https://www.vice.com/en/article/3aq9p5/expressvpn-uae-hacking-project-raven-daniel-gericke
~ 1 hours 6 minutes ~
17:28 asciilifeform meanwhile in 0xFE comments.
17:33 asciilifeform mats: 'The court filings detailed that prosecutors will drop the charges if the three men cooperate with U.S. authorities, pay a financial penalty, and agree to a list of unspecified restrictions on their employment' << lol, press-gang ??
~ 33 minutes ~
18:06 asciilifeform unrelatedly,
18:08 asciilifeform ... replays become considerably trickier to pull off once we have frequent rekeying.
18:08 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-15 11:07:22 asciilifeform: but adding an extra hashism and bufferism for blacks doesn't help -- enemy can simply throw 5years worth of valid but distinct blacks he collected from your isp instead of simply identical
18:08 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-07 14:34:56 asciilifeform: so handshake goes : 1) X->Y : a' 2) Y->X: b' 3) X->Y: a 4) if a' != H(a), Y->X: fuckyou ; else Y->X: b 5) if b' != H(b), X->Y: fuckyou; else X->Y: hello with new key a^b 6) Y->X: hello to you too with new key a^b .
18:09 asciilifeform and unrelatedly to this, is ~is~ possible to maintain a large log and answer 'getdata' for arbitrarily old packets, ~if~ the timestamp check is made ~after~ checksumming of the message.
18:10 asciilifeform this'd be a slightly more expensive per-packet prologue -- but allow arbitrarily old timestamps ~strictly~ when they are replies to a getdata which explicitly requested an 'ancient' packet, without adding anything to be gained by a replayer.
18:12 asciilifeform (i.e. this is solvable)
18:12 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-12 19:21:26 asciilifeform: thinking again about 'getdata' : this won't work as given. because if timestamp indicates 'stale' (>15min in the past) the answer to the 'getdata' will be tossed.
18:13 asciilifeform ... and imho oughta be done; the price is small, while the gain (read log to beginning of time! for so long as even 1 peer has it and willing to answer) is substantial.
18:13 * asciilifeform invites discussion; will bbl
~ 27 minutes ~
18:40 PeterL would the getdata only be for things that peer had said, or for any data? IE, would I only be required to hold onto my own history, rather than keeping everything I had ever seen?
~ 58 minutes ~
19:39 mats asciilifeform: the filings land a day after expressvpn is acquired
19:39 mats convenient timing
~ 44 minutes ~
20:24 punkman http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-15#1058228 << keeping only your history would be weird, if you are gonna limit your log, you'd limit by time, not speaker
20:24 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-15 14:40:37 PeterL: would the getdata only be for things that peer had said, or for any data? IE, would I only be required to hold onto my own history, rather than keeping everything I had ever seen?
20:26 punkman also if I want to catchup with getdata(selfchain) requests, I'd also need a way to get last selfchain for all speakers
~ 1 hours 13 minutes ~
21:39 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-15#1058231 << you keep at minimum 30min of log, separately, for a) your net b) direct (priv.) messaging sessions w/ each peer.
21:39 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-15 16:24:02 punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-15#1058228 << keeping only your history would be weird, if you are gonna limit your log, you'd limit by time, not speaker
21:39 asciilifeform (a) can getdata on (a), (b) can getdata on (his particular) (b), strictly.
21:40 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-15#1058233 << mno. you getdata on the self/net chain of your last packet received (in the case of (a) -- from anyone on your net; in the case of (b) -- from the peer in question.)
21:40 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-15 16:26:05 punkman: also if I want to catchup with getdata(selfchain) requests, I'd also need a way to get last selfchain for all speakers
21:41 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-09-15#1058228 << stations oughta answer getdatas on a 'cycles available' basis. in principle very little will be lost if ~no one~ answers'em, you will simply have a very small amount of outright lossiness. and very little ability to follow unbroken chains if your/peer's uptime aint 100%.
21:41 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-15 14:40:37 PeterL: would the getdata only be for things that peer had said, or for any data? IE, would I only be required to hold onto my own history, rather than keeping everything I had ever seen?
21:42 asciilifeform it is largely on account of the latter that, imho, getdata is justified.
21:42 asciilifeform ( and not on account of packet loss, which happens just about never on a working (i.e. rats not chewed on cable on either end) link. )
21:43 asciilifeform in other words, virtually 100% of packet loss happens because the would-be recipient box is actually unplugged.
21:43 asciilifeform (or in some cases the ~sender~ is..)
~ 22 minutes ~
22:05 punkman asciilifeform: if first message of speaker has selfchain=0, how do we request getdata for it
22:08 punkman hmm never mind, got it
22:15 punkman re: packet loss https://www.openmymind.net/How-Unreliable-Is-UDP/
~ 28 minutes ~
22:44 asciilifeform punkman: you don't
22:44 asciilifeform aha.
22:45 asciilifeform punkman: we did a similar udp trial in the #t days, found iirc 0 loss (can't seem to dig out the log ptr tho. if anyone recalls, plox to write in)
22:46 asciilifeform punkman: was a test of this asciilifeform item. (where conveniently example proggies for echo)
22:47 asciilifeform iirc diana & co. took and made a more elaborate setup with permutations & ordering test etc
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